Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 129-132 Part 1 : Dr. Kate Holbrook

Episode Date: November 6, 2021

Is plural marriage a requirement in the Celestial Kingdom? As Joseph has a few moments of respite in Nauvoo, he has more time for theological reflection and as these sections reflect. Dr. Kate Holbrook shares her research regarding marriage.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodes/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Assistant Video EditorSpanish Transcripts: Ariel CuadraFrench Transcripts: Krystal RobertsPortuguese Transcripts: Igor Willians"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith and I'm here with my angelic cohost John by the way. Hi, John. Okay, that's one I haven't heard.

Yeah, John, I'm telling you that's that's probably the first word I think of when I think of you is my angelic co-host. It wasn't lined backer than okay. Yeah, no, yeah, it wasn't. All. It wasn't NBA. I'll start. No, I'm sorry, but I do think of, hey, we want to remind everybody to come find us on social media. We've got an Instagram account and a Facebook account that are run by the incredible Jamie Nielsen and we would love to hear from you and we have some extras on there for you that maybe you haven't heard or seen. We would love it if you would subscribe to Ray and review the podcast. Now some of you were born in the 1900s and you don't know how to do that. So find someone who was born in the 2000s and ask them how to rate, review and subscribe to this podcast.

And big announcement, we want you to know that you can go to follow him.co and we have show notes there. You already knew that. We have a transcript, but we now have the transcript in French, Portuguese and Spanish there at the website. So please find us there and share the podcast with your friends if you like it. Now, John, let's get to the good stuff. I've been nervous for this interview all week, not because of the material, but because we have a guest coming that I've really only seen on TV. So, pretty excited about this. Tell us who's joining us. Yeah, this is great. This is Kate Holbrook. She is a leading voice in the study of Latter-day Saint Women and Latter-day Saint Foodways. As managing historian of women's history

at the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint's History Department, she writes, studies, and interprets history full-time. Her major research interests are religion, gender, and food. A popular public speaker Kate was voted, listened to this Hank Harvard College's Teaching Fellow of the Year for her work. As head teaching fellow in a course that an old nearly 600 students, she co-edited global values 101 a short course based on that class. In 2012, she and her co-organizer Matthew Bowman have edited a collection of essays that spring from this conference entitled,

Women and Mormonism, Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Kate has also published essays and book chapters about Latter-day Saint Women in Housework, Nation of Islam Muslims, Latter-day Saints in Food, Religion and Sexuality and and religious hunting rituals. We're going to have to ask her about that. Kate grew up at the feet of the Rocky Mountains. This happy to live there again among the historic sites, cultural events, and food environments where her scholarship has its roots. She has a BA in English and Russian literature

from Breganmy Young University and MTS from Harvard Divinity School and a PhD in Religious Studies from Boston University. For her dissertation work on Latter-day Saint and Nation of Islam foodways, she was the first recipient of the Eccles fellowship in Mormon Studies at the University of Utah. She and her husband Samuel Brown are raising three children in Salt Lake City. Sounds like you've been in college all of your life. And will you please indulge me what is an MTS from Harvard Divinity School? Master in Theological Studies. That's the degree you can get in Divinity School if you're not going to be ordained a minister. In theological studies. Wow. Oh, I was going to say but while I was there I studied religion and

society and religion and world religions. So it's a it's a very broad. You're able to make the degree what you want, which is wonderful. John, if that if that bio was supposed to make me less nervous, um, that did not help. I'm really curious though about the food parts. Me too, actually. I wanted to ask about that. Yeah. When I was a child even,

my favorite TV show was the frugal gourmet on PBS, and I later learned he was actually a Presbyterian minister, religion and food. And then for my dissertation, I really wanted to study both every day, every day religion and women and religion. And food is a way to do both of those things because women traditionally are responsible for, you know, preparing food. And eating and choosing what to eat and choosing where to obtain our food is something that we do every day, several times a day. So it was a really good way to get at that

niche. Yeah, you said religion and food were part of your interest. I thought, okay, religion and food are my interests is what I'll know John, you're on there too. Do you remember the movie White Nights with Berishnikov and Gurkhi? It was my favorite movie when I was a tween. And I would look at the newspapers in one scene with Russian, this, you know, Cyrillic writing on them. And I just thought, oh, I want to learn that.

But I didn't have the opportunity growing up to learn that language. And then I was called as one of the, you know, in those early years when missions in Russia were just starting, I was called to serve in the Moscow mission. And then I went straight to Samara and helped to open that new mission. Wow.

That's where the Russian came up. That's great. So you were already interested in Russia and then you got called there. Wow. Yes. Yeah. And my husband was super interested in Russian and he studied Russian as an undergraduate and he got called to Louisiana English speaking. So that... Well, Dr. Holbrook, welcome. Thank you. We're lucky to have you. Yeah, we're excited. I feel lucky to be on the show. So thank you both.

Well, let's jump into our lesson since we have such an expert here, John. We're going to look at sections 129 through 132 of the Doctrine Covenants. So, Dr. Holbrook, we're going to let you lead here. Give us our background. What do we need to know to approach these sections and to get the most out of them? Great. And thank you so much. And I think I'll just mention briefly these, section 129.

Recent episodes that I've heard from you guys, we've been in Kirtland. Everything's been falling apart and we move to far west and everything is just so hard and painful. Well, then we're in Navu. We get to be in Navu for these sections. And yes, there are still challenges, but there's a lot of hope. We're starting to build houses and build a town and be able to have a little more security and sense of permanence. So Joseph Smith also has the leisure to do a little more theological thinking.

You know, we have a lot of, they're still spiritual, but really practical information and a lot of recent sections that we've been talking about and come follow me. And so in section 129, for example, you have a direction on how to differentiate between spirits. Angels are represented beings. And so if you hold out your hand to them and they shake your hand, then you know, this is a resurrected being. That's definitely more theological than practical.

Yes, yes, exactly. And my favorite is the spirit who isn't resurrected doesn't have a body, but is a good spirit. They won't even hold out their hand to you because the integrity is so strong there, they won't try to try to fool you. Right. And then you have this spirit who isn't resurrected and is an evil spirit, and they will reach out your hand but when you touch it. That's interesting. So he's getting some time, he's not in jail, he's not running away from you know from a mob or people who's trying to hurt him so he's getting some time to really dive into theology. I like

that idea. That's how I experience these sections. And then in 130, there's a familiar line. I think that I know I'm not the only one who loves it. It's first two. And that same sociology which exists among us here will exist among us there. Only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy. My dad left when I was a few weeks old,

and then my grandpa died when I was five. So my mom and I moved in with my grandma. And when my grandma died, it just, oh, it really did me in. I was so close to that woman and loved, loved her so much. And this verse two is one that brings me a lot of comfort that I can have that same sort of comforting, loving, really intimate relationship with her in the afterlife that I had while she was here with me. That is really good. Exactly. I love the idea that I'll be able to say,

Hank, how you been? How are you? And Kate and family friends. I don't know if I've ever seen that word, sociality anywhere else, but in this verse. But that same friendship, associations, it's all right in there. And it really makes sense. One of the ways I see the gospel,

the commandments that Jesus tells us are the most important. And just the whole point of the gospel is to help us be closer to God and be closer to each other and help each other. So it definitely makes sense that we would have robust social lives in the afterlife and the difference would be that we would be even closer to the presence of God and Jesus Christ. It'll be coupled with eternal glory.

So John, we'll have all of our hair. That will be... Yeah. That will be even more fighting. I hope Hank you say that I'm the linebacker there. That's if they give me an order form. I won't be the Barney Fife impersonator, but we'll see. Then we moved out to another familiar verse. We're still in section 130 and it's verse 18, whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. I always found that to be inspiring to me, to keep up my study, but also the learning that comes from everyday life and interaction with other people helps. It makes my scripture study more alive. It makes my prayer

life more alive. And I think those are other forms of intelligence in addition to just, you know, study that will take with us. To knowledge. Just in my New Testament classes today at BYU, I taught Luke chapter 12 where there's a man whose biggest problem in his life is he doesn't have enough room for his stuff. And he thinks to himself, what am I going to do? So he says, I know what, you know, he builds those bigger barns and he dies and all that stuff stays here. And so we talked in class about what actually goes with us. And that seems to be what Joseph is teaching here, doesn't it, that this knowledge, this work that we've put in to learn what go with us into the next life.

So that's maybe where should we focus our time. Yeah. And then the other verse we were talking about too, but love the relationships. Right. They go with this as well. Those are the things that go with us. I love that. I think Almit when he's talking to Coriantin go not after the many things of this world for behold you cannot carry them with you. So, um, what are my favorite authors that I read in high school was a strange name, Og Mandino, have you heard of him? He said that whatever you load up your camel with in this life, death will unload your cargo. So some things don't get past that checkout counter called death. Well, what does, and here we learn something, and I hope we'll get all the things that we've learned, but maybe forgotten too.

But I loved what Kate said about, just not book learning necessarily, but what we learn just interacting with one another, kindness and charity, hopefully, you know. We get to keep that. Yeah, and that goes with this. That's beautiful. Yeah.

This is theology, isn't it? I love that. I love that Joseph Smith got to really say, oh, here's some here's some things I've been thinking about. Isn't that really what section 130 is or just little bits that Joseph kind of jotted down or wrote down or said at some point? Yeah, the prophecy on the Civil War is in there that a little a little bit more about the Civil War prophecy. And then one more that I'd like to hit is verse 21. And when we obtain any blessing from God,

it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. That's another one that is really familiar to church members who've been in the church for at least a little while, very important one. And I think it's an important precursor to section 132 when we get a vision of obedience that is very powerful. Wow. Yeah.

Good point. Yeah. That's interesting. There was one night and I don't wax personal very often, but there was one night I was saying my prayers and I said, I'm thankful for my blessings. John, I think you've heard me tell this story before and I said, I'm thankful for my blessings. And I felt kind of a prompting say, why don't we change that? Why don't you say you're thankful for the commandments? Because any blessing you've ever received came because you were obedient to a commandment. So I actually changed my prayers that night. And I tried to stick to it ever since. Instead of saying, I'm thankful for my blessings. I

say, I'm thankful for the commandments by which I've You know been able to receive these blessings and it was just a small change for me But it's helped me see the beauty of the beauty of the commandments right that blessings come from commandments God's not just dishing out blessings to you know, it's not some lottery system There's a law in place in which you can receive certain blessings keep the law and you'll receive the blessings I love that Hank. I wish I'd heard that a couple of years ago. My oldest daughter is a freshman in college now. I'll start using that in family prayers for the other two. I got to tell you this that in the Smith House in verse 20 there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world upon which all blessings are predicated and we use that phrase quite a bit. There's a law

irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world that no matter what time-sack art meeting starts. The Smith family will be late. We just cannot seem to figure out how to break that law. Now let's go. I'm gonna talk about 131 even faster because I think I think it would be rewarding for us to spend most of our time on 132 today and 131 is again preparing us for section 132 and verse 2. We read in order to obtain the highest degree of heaven it's talking about, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood, meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. So it's setting us up. So then we have this question, well tell me more, what is this and why is marriage so important towards being, towards celestial glory?

In Protestant America that Joseph Smith is living in, what's the idea of marriage in the next life? Is that being taught? Is that something that an everyday Christian would think about? Often, you know, we think of marriage marriages till death do us part in much of the world, not all of the world, but much of the world. But I think there's also a popular conception that relationships extend beyond the grave. I mean, in our own time, think about movies or conversations you've had with people who believe in an afterlife. They don't have ceiling, but they believe they believe they'll be able to see their loved ones. Love to ones again. I wonder what someone would say if I'm going to

be married in the next life versus I'll see someone in the next life. I just wonder if anybody even makes that distinction, maybe even not. All the love songs and everything talk about forever and endless love and everything, I think maybe something in our spirits kind of knows and yearns and hopes for that. But I think a lot, I mean, Hank, I don't know, but in Kate, you studied so much more about other religious traditions, but I know that the question Jesus was asked from the Sadducees when he answered they are neither married nor given in marriage. I mean, a lot of interpret that when, oh, we're not married, we're just, but it must be

something better is what I've heard because they're not really sure what comes next. And it's tricky, the history of testament, writing and interpretation and people adding and subtracting stuff material from those records. It's hard to know who put what in or changed wording just a little bit to get a little spin on it. I definitely think it's scripture, and it's something that can really lead us and help us understand Christ better and understand better how to live.

But I think there are moments in the scriptures that we shouldn't get to hung up on when particular interpretation. And hence the need for the restoration, right? Exactly. exactly. We need these revelations to help us understand. So I think that does bring us to 132. You feel like we're ready to jump in? I do, do you, John? Yeah, I think I didn't mean to insert some confusion there. I just, with that verse, I thought.

No, no, I don't. Yeah, that generallyaries I've seen from our church are, well, these were sadducees who didn't believe in their resurrection. So Jesus, perhaps, was speaking directly to them, they neither marry. But the fact that they would ask whose wife will she be indicates they did believe in some sort of right. The question wasn't will she be married? The question was to who? To whom? And so it's interesting, I know Robert J. Matthews pointed out, look, they did think there was some kind of marriage in the way they were asking the question, but anyway. I was going to ask, just just tell us a little bit maybe Kate what's

What are the last few years of Joseph's life like? You said he's in he's dipping into theology But he's very busy, right at the time he's serving as mayor of navu I think for a while and His he's got a homestead to run. Is he happy during this time from what you've read? Is Joseph doing well? Oh, I think he's both happy and fulfilled and a little bit in agony from people who betray him, for people who misrepresent and misunderstand him, from

marital strife that he has with Emma. So I think there's so much good and revelation pouring in and this nascent endowment, understanding of the endowment, which is so important, you know, one of his greatest legacies to us, but as a human and a human world, there was also a lot to grapple with. Yeah, I like that. I just we've seen him struggle so much from 1837 to 1839, you just think the guy deserves a bit of a break, at least maybe in my mind. I'm just like, oh, I don't have some good years before, before it ends. And at least in Navu, he more often, maybe than he used to, can have a comfortable bed and a good meal.

And it's just some of those little comforts that help us hang on. Yeah, and you know, have some friends over and have dinner, right? You know the importance of a meal with a family and religion and friends, so I hope that happened for him. Okay, well I think John, do you feel ready to go into 132? Yeah, I'm very anxious to learn. I'm excited about this and for all of our listeners. Yeah, me too. I remember as a seminary teacher, both as a seminary student and a seminary teacher, I don't remember learning a lot or really trying to dive into section 132 that much. So I'm excited as well. It's and it's a difficult section. I think it's a difficult section even to understand. So we'll do what we can together and and I believe we'll be able to do some good work together.

Okay, well we're happy that you're here and we'll jump in with the jokes anytime we're needed. That's great. That's what we provide, right John? Not much. I read studies that people respect you more if you have the confidence to tell jokes. Yes, hey John, look at that. Makes you vulnerable because they might not laugh. That's been my history. So, Kate, the first thing I noticed was the date of section 132 is July of 1843.

We are under a year to Joseph Smith's death in June of 1844. It's a big deal. It's so much going on this year. Relief Society has been established deal so much going on this year. Relief Society has been established and is moving ahead. And just I think Joseph Smith has a sense. I know he has a sense. He's not going to live forever. And just the more he can do, the better, I think he's operating under that kind of mindset. And then also what we're going to, one of the things that will study in this really large and all-encompassing section is plural marriage. It was really hard on everybody. It was hard on the men who learned about it, the men who began to practice it, the women

who learned about it, the men who began to practice it, the women who learned about it, the women who began to practice it. So alongside the fulfillment and angelic visitations, they were experiencing in their spiritual lives. There were some concrete hard everyday things that they were grappling with. So the first several, I think it's four verses of this section, do suggest plural marriage. In verse one we read, and Jesus Christ is speaking, I the Lord justified my servants Abraham Isaac and Jacob as also Moses, David, and Solomon. My servants is touching the principal and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines and

Behold and low I am the Lord that God and will answer these touching this matter Joseph Smith had asked about their plural wives And and this isn't a surprise because this was a restorationist Endeavor they were working to restore not just the gospel that Jesus Christ established on the earth, but the Abrahamic covenant was very important to them. So they were looking to restore the whole history of the Church of God and human relationships with God. So it's not surprising that this practice came up. And if I had been editing this section, I would have moved this down because

then we leave Plural Marriage. And we start to talk about something else for a long time, for what 30 verses or so. And so I would have thought, well, I should just take this down and put it down where we get back to this topic. But I think what it does for us to have these verses at the beginning is it gives us context of what question, what important questions start at this conversation, and to have that context, then when we think about how this savior answers it, it makes the savior's approach to answering it really, really meaningful. It matters that he doesn't just start by talking about plural marriage, but he starts by talking about the new and everlasting covenant. I notice verse three, prepare your heart to receive.

Yes. That is a... I don't want to say ominous, but it's an important piece of this, I would say, is you're going to have to check your own heart here as you learn this. And I would, if somebody said that in a blessing to me, I would think, oh, oh, yeah, a little ominous, a little idea. Yeah, prepare your heart to receive. I'm just really glad you brought that up because I think I had been taught that that, yes, thank you for that question about this. First, let me talk about marriage. And that will be a foundation so that I can answer your question about Abraham Isaac Jacob, their marriage.

Is that fair? Yeah, I think that's right. So a little bit more on context. We talked about the context that they're in Navu now, but the other thing I think we need to keep in mind before we go any further is the Abrahamic covenant. And this is this is Genesis 12 Verses 1 through 3. This is really important to every tradition that reads the Hebrew Bible or what we call the the Old Testament. I'll read those verses to short. Now the Lord had said unto Abraham,

get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred and from thy father's house unto a land that I will shoe thee. And I will make of thee, here's the promise. I will make of thee a great nation and I will bless thee and make thy name great and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curse

the thee and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So I can imagine one reason this feels really relevant to Joseph Smith at this time is that you have to leave behind, you know, get the out of thy country and And from my kindred. And yes, his mom and his dad came with him, but not every relative, not every friend was still with him by the time he got to Navu. So he and the church members had had to make the same sort of sacrifice of leaving behind a home and an identity. And then the promise, this says a great nation,

but what it means is descendants, progeny, you know, even as many as the sands of the sea or the stars in the heaven, that's a really important promise here that his name will be great, that he will have land, and that the people of the earth will be great, that he will have land, and that the people of the earth will be blessed through him and through his progeny. Those are the promises.

So just to mark, those have been really important to a lot of religious people for centuries. And those are the promises that Joseph Smith is well in Jesus Christ is alluding to in this section. So I wanted us to be clear on what that blessing, and it was past Isaac and it was past to Jacob who got his name changed to Israel. And if you don't want that means, you haven't watched conference very often. I think how many times do we hear, right? God will prevail from the name of Israel. I love the part that in some of the statements of the Abrahamic covenant is all the kindreds

of the world and other place, all the families of the world will be blessed. And that ties into this too. This is how families are going to be blessed and bound together. And what's the greatest blessing we can offer? Families is, you know, the new and everlasting covenant, right? So that all fits, too. Yeah. I wonder if Hank, when I'm not sure exactly what you talk about when you say priesthood

is one of the three peas, but is that part of it, that the tying of families together and the blessings of each other? I'm not that great of a teacher, Kate, but yes. So we talk about priesthood, priesthood keys, right? And priesthood, priesthood blessings, priesthood ordinances, that whole idea. Well, it's called to bear the ministry, is it in the Pearl of Great Price where it uses that phrase? It's like elder, bednar, pot that going on a mission isn't something, isn't only something you do, it's something you are because you are Abraham's children. You're going to bear the ministry.

Just a cool way to think of it. Yeah, beautiful way to think of it. We were talking about the new and everlasting covenant. I think that's an expression we want to make sure we're all on the same page with also. One thing I like to do when I study scripture is I like to read it carefully and try to figure out what it says on my own and then I go to what other people have written and check it. Because I want to have the experience on my own using my own mind, but I also don't want to rely only on my own interpretation and my own background. And so when I read this, I thought, well, it sounds like the new, new and everlasting covenant is

the gospel of Jesus Christ, or the reason, because it's new, that's the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. So then I looked at the encyclopedia of Mormonism, which was named before President Nelson. Yeah, I just encouraged us to use a different name. As were a couple of my books. It said the new and everlasting covenant is the gospel of Jesus Christ, but I think we want to remember that new means it's the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. So when we talk about marriage, it's a

part. It's the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, but the new and everlasting covenant itself is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It's all of it. Yeah. It's the whole thing. And so, so we go right into that, verse six, all of sudden Jesus Christ is talking about it, as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory, and he that receiveeth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, say of the Lord God." And then, and again, this is kind of hard stuff, which makes it worth us talking about, then he starts talking about the conditions of following laws. And he said, Covenants, Contracts, Bonds, Obligations, Oath, Svows, Performances, Connections, Associations, Expectations that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise of him who was anointed by revelation and commandment.

There are a lot of clauses in this sentence, but I'll skip ahead. All of those things, if they're not done by one who has authority and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, they are of no efficacy virtue or force in and after the resurrection from the dead. And then he repeats this in another way a little bit later. So really any contract or bond or

Understanding if it's not performed by one who has authority and Sealed by the Holy Ghost then after when once we're in the resurrection or after this life they don't exist. Wow. That is theology. That is the you said we're going to do some theology. That is that is some strong theology. And I love this idea, right? That the Lord's like there is a line. It does matter. And we're going to tell you why. Yes, but I want us to keep just a couple of times referring to the very last verse of this section, which says I will reveal more unto you hereafter

therefore let this suffice for the present and this is one of those moments where we need that Ending because at first Joseph Smith is the only one who has the authority to perform these ceilings to make covenants binding. And we know that doesn't last. That was right for that moment. And the idea of the person who performs the ordinance needing to have authority, that has certainly stayed with us. But now there are so many of us, we've delegated that authority.

And so now there are a number of people worthy to have that authority. Yeah, but it still comes from the present of the church. It's an appendage, right, to the present of the church, to can give you that authority. From keys, right? Yeah. Well, I just that priesthood that started

with Jesus Christ and then right through those early apostles and then came back to Joseph Smith. What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. He tells to Peter, James and John. Yes, yes. And then verse 8, My house is a house of order, say, a fillard God and not a house of confusion. To say that after saying that there are particular ways that things need to be done in order to make them eternal seems quite

important. Right, and he's and to not have a line would would would create confusion. I can see why you would say I We can't have everybody and everything matter in the next life or we're're going to have a huge, we're going to have a mess. I can see that as a leader, right, that we're going to have to designate some things in order for it to, you know, to have order here. Yes, yep. And this comes up again. It comes up frequently in the doctrine of covenants, and it comes up a second time

even in this, in this revelation. Okay. So we have all this background now about what counts, what counts in the afterlife as part of the bestor gospel of Jesus Christ, and then we move into a conversation about marriage. Okay. So yeah, I can see him setting us up here saying,

everything has to be done by authority. Now we're gonna narrow in on one. Yeah, let's move now to verse 15 where we really get into the marriage conversations. So now we're the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and specifically talking about marriage. And we learn in this verse 15, if a man marry him, a wife in the world. And when I read that I thought okay We're not talking about plural marriage here. We're talking about marriage

a man marry him a wife in the world and From here on the next several verses are describing different forms of marriage and then what those would look like in the afterlife So we have they get married, but it's not, by the criteria, we just discussed, it's not an eternal everlasting marriage. So then after they're dead, they are not bound together. And then, and then we have the version 18, yeah, and Mary, a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity. If that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law,

and it's not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, then it is not valid. So maybe somebody intends to be married for time and all eternity. But again, if it's not done by that authority, it's sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. No go. Their marriage still won't be in effect despite their intentions. If someone were to ask me, if one of my students were to say, what does that mean the Holy Spirit of promise? I might just put something like there, if they

don't remain worthy, right? If they don't remain faithful to their covenants, then that's not going to be valid. So just because you got married in the temple by the proper authority does not mean that you're, you know, it's a, what would you call it, John? I'd get out of jail free card. I don't know, but it's this idea of, it doesn't matter how you live. I think this sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is the idea of it does matter how you live. Well, I like to tell my students there's a temple wedding is a place, but a celestial marriage is the the the product what you want long term. You can get married in the temple, but to have a celestial marriage is a lifelong endeavor. Maybe that's a maybe that's too simple, but that what you're hoping for is to have your

your temple wedding sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise that it can become a celestial marriage. Then we get to the people who have what you were just describing. Verse 19. The celestial, the truly celestial marriage, if a man, so it's again monogamous marriage, if A-man marry A-wife by my word, which is my law, and it is sealed by the Holy Spirit and performed by one with authority, and they don't shed innocent blood. So I think that's really interesting, that it's not, you know, if you have to kill somebody because somebody's trying to shoot your family, you kill themselves defense, got to know what they're talking about here. They're talking about shedding innocent blood. As long as you don't shed innocent blood, if you're married by somebody with authority, then this is what happens. They shall inherit thrones, kingdoms,

principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths. To their exaltation and glory in all things, as has been sealed upon their head, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. And when I read those gorgeous blessings, I see echoes of the Abrahamic covenant because I see land, dominions, principalities, powers. I see progeny when we say seeds, continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

I see glory, a fullness of glory. And when we think of the glory of God, we think of children returning to God and glorifying God through their good behavior. So even that, I think it's part of what I'm reading in these descriptions. That verse is longer than some entire sections of the doctrine of covenants. I mean That is a power packed verse isn't it and it

I'm not I haven't looked closely, but it might be one sentence to but boy. There's that got some Some amazing words and promises in it as you said Kate Yeah, and it's a lot to take in Yeah, it is it's a lot to take in. Yeah, it is. It's a lot to take in. I can I can hear someone, especially one of my students saying, Oh, so only Latter-day St. Marriages will ask for eternity. And the answer is no, because what do you think we're trying to do with this proxy work, with this temple work, we're trying to offer this to every marriage. Every single marriage that's ever existed, we want them to have that opportunity.

So that's what temple work is all about. Is that that type of service? And man, what a blessing. I mean, I just read 19 and you're it's what Mike Wilcox, Dr. Mike Wilcox called the pen of heaven. There's that is just a it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful verse. I was reading the end. It shall be a full force when they out of the world. Then they shall pass by the angels and the gods which are set there to their exaltation and glory in all things have have been sealed upon their heads

which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of their seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods because they have no end. Oh, wow. And all through that verse 20, they shall be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue, then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them, then shall they be gods, because they have all power and the angels are subject unto them. It's a lot. Hank, I'm so glad you brought up that perspective because I think we cannot, we cannot feel good about this section

unless we remember God's love. I think God's love has to be at the foundation of our reading of every verse in this section. And when Jesus Christ keeps talking about my law, I think his law has to do with his atonement, his grace. And all of the ideals that we read about in this section, we cannot realize them without the atonement and without the grace of God as extended to us

through Jesus Christ. Yeah, what a great flash of insight. That you have to read this with its resting, its sitting upon a foundation of God's Atonement and God's love for His children. I think that's part of maybe preparing your heart to receive. Great point. Yeah, I think you's part of maybe preparing your heart to receive. Great point. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And we'll get a little more of that in in verse 23. And if you receive me in the world, then shall you know me and shall receive our exaltation that where I am, you shall be also. God, Jesus has to be a part of all of this.

God, dear Jesus has to be a part of all of this. And eternal life is knowing God. Yeah, that verse 24 is just right out of the book of John. It's like the great intercessory prayer in John 17, but I love that. And John, it says this is life eternal. This one says eternal lives and makes eternal life even plural in an interesting way, which is fascinating. And that God is not so transcendent that it's impossible to know him, but we can know him. That's eternal life to know. The only wise and true God. I love that he would bring that back to that statement in John. You turn alive, sounds like continuation of seeds, doesn't it? Is that the same thing maybe?

I don't know, I'm super curious about that phrase myself, but I think that's probably right, that's probably what it means is the continuation of seed. The Savior here, and maybe it's also Joseph. This is a, this is a very fearless section so far. I don't know, the tone of it is stronger than perhaps some of the other revelations we've read. Maybe that is Joseph getting more bold, but also the Savior being more serious about this. He says This is me Receivey therefore my law that is That is what can we say no questions?

Yeah, there's no questions about what we're talking about no ambivalence. No. Yeah. Yeah, very courageous very fearless. I should say Okay, now Yeah, very courageous, very fearless, I should say. Okay. Now, thank you mentioned earlier, somebody who is sealed in the temple, you know, is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise by one who has authority and then makes mistakes. And when I read this verse, carefully, it's a, it surprised me a little bit. Let's look at 26. Maybe I'll summarize it for you. So you marry, and then you make mistakes, and you don't shed innocent blood because that's the deal breaker mistake.

But you make other mistakes, and it says, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection and to enter into their exaltation. But they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption. Sayeth the Lord God. I'm interested to hear what you think my own feelings about that mean that the ceiling stands, you know, that the ceiling stands, You know that the ceiling stands, but in this life there will be There will be rough consequences to wait to what you've done Yeah, so yeah, that's what I think so too. I think you saying this is how strong the ceiling is

It can withstand your own Mistakes your own sin your own transgressions it can withstand your own mistakes, your own sins, your own transgressions. It can withstand that. But by the way, sin and transgression makes life really hard, destroyed in the flesh to me. That sounds like you're going to make life a mess for you through sin and transgression. I have a statement from President Joseph Filling Smith about this verse, because if you read it too quickly, you might think, might think well gosh then once you're sealed in the temple

You can do just about anything You're good to go. Yeah, and this is what Joseph Filling Smith said he said verse 26 in section 132 is the most abused passage in any scripture He said he said the Lord has never promised any soul that he may be taken into exaltation without the spirit of repentance. While repentance is not stated in this passage, yet it is and must be implied. So maybe that's what that buffeting of Satan means. There's got to be a repentance that's involved. Because that only makes sense too. Unto the day of redemption sounds to me like repentance to their job. Yeah, that's true. This is the verse that makes me think of personal examples. I

think of my poor dad who was raised in the church, but his uncles when he was a kid gave him sips of alcohol and later on, after he'd been married to my mom for a couple of years, he started drinking, became an alcoholic, cheated. You know, married, the woman was a secretary. It's just hard. It's just ridiculous. Then he married her to try to make it right, and then they divorced, more drinking problems, and then he just worked and worked and worked to have his membership in the church restored and his priesthood restored and his temple temple covenants restored and ended up taking his own life. And I just think that's such a tragic illustration of this when yeah, I think he's still sealed to my mom. but oh my goodness, how miserable and full of suffering his life

became because of, you know, because it's insane, was they will to buff it. Yeah. And it's not just him, it's you said, it's the people who influenced him as well. He's the, those who had given him alcohol at such a young age. Kate, wow, wow, that just kind of took my breath away. That's one of those that makes me feel like, you know, the Lord is merciful to that kind of thing. When somebody misuses their agency by giving someone young alcohol, whatever,

there's so many different examples about that. And I'm grateful, the Lord is merciful to that. We, when we were back in section 46, talked about he will judge, he will let, what was the phrase Hank, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. And he had some conditions there,

which he didn't choose. I'm grateful for that. But wow, which he didn't choose. I'm grateful for that. But wow, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that changed that verse for me. That was really good, Kate. But I also think of a friend of mine who's, you know, he was a mission president. He had these fantastic kids. And he cheated on his wife. And he married her and he lost everything. And then he divorced his second wife. I think he was married a third time and divorced her. And now he's single.

And he's just, there's so much misery. And it did so much damage. I mean, his kids still love him and still reach out to him. But it did so much damage to his life and relationships and all the things that root us and give us, give us meaning and peace and comfort in the world. He's left all of those and he still believes in the Church and he still believes in his ceiling and that it's strong. It's interesting, but he brought all this suffering not only on himself, but upon his children and his grandchildren. And that's

once again why the atonement has to be, has to be working and we have to be turning to it throughout all of these verses because these are ideals we're describing and we don't live in a world where ideals happen. We live in a fallen world and that's why we have the atonement to make up. So that his children who did not make the mistake he made, but suffered because of his mistake, so that they can have healing and compensation. I believe that there's nothing that can happen to us. So something like this, and I think the current missionary manuals, there's nothing that can happen to us

that can't be made right through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Wow. I really believe that's true. Okay, and I think maybe it comes up a little bit later here, but let's make sure to mention that no one is sealed to someone they don't want to be sealed too. I've actually had that concern from people before. I don't want to be sealed too.

I've actually had that concern from people before. I don't want to be sealed to this person. And that's not part of it. I don't think that's what the Lord is saying here. Like, even though this person hurt you, you're still sealed to them. I think he's just talking about the power of the ceiling to withstand, you know, the buffetings of Satan

and even, you know, what you talked about there with people's destroying their own lives. The covenant can withstand that. But that was going to be forced into these things. Absolutely not because agency is the atonement is one of the bedrock, one of the foundations of the way the restored gospel of Jesus Christ works. And so is agency. From the beginning, from before we came to earth, agency was a foundational principle. And life doesn't work without agency.

We don't accomplish our purpose. And agency will continue in the next life. I have no doubt that it continues in the next life. That is the one note that I had that I wanted to make sure I said agency is an eternal principle and you don't have to worry about being forced into something you don't like. Agency is an eternal principle so glad we covered it. Please join us for part two of this podcast.