Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 129-132 Part 1 • Sis. Brittany Chapman Nash • November 10-16 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

What did Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo revelation teach about discerning spirits, the nature of God, and eternal relationships? Historian Brittany Nash Chapman explores Doctrine and Covenants 129-131 and how early Saints lived and understood these profound doctrines.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTS English: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC246EN French: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC246FR German: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC246DE Portuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC246PT Spanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC246ESALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIM.co2021 Episode Doctrine & Covenants 129-132 Part 1https://youtu.be/gn84EE_B5WUFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookBook of Mormon: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastBMBook  WEEKLY NEWSLETTER https://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletter  SOCIAL MEDIA Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE:00:00 Part 1 - Sister Brittany Chapman Nash02:56 Being offended on other’s behalf03:40 Brittany Chapman Nash bio07:44 Come, Follow Me Manual09:22 Reducing the heavenly to the finite12:25 Sister Nash shares about discernment18:20 Joseph’s confidence with angelic influences21:16  Information about the next life22:36 Endowment in the Red Brick Store25:35 Heavenly relationships29:48 Friendship: A fundamental principal34:31 Kate Holbrook and Melissa Inoyue37:22 Prize enduring relationships39:06 Gaining intelligence44:16 President Faust46:43 Dangers in this verse48:06 Elder Christofferson’s Cosmic Vending Machine50:47 The first anti-Christian writer?54:53 Brigham Young yearned to know this57:23 Clarification regarding kingdoms1:00:21 Spirit is matter1:03:12 End of Part 1 - Sister Brittany Chapman NashThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika: Portuguese TranscriptsHeather Barlow: Communications DirectorSydney Smith: Social Media, Graphic Design "Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Coming up in this episode on Follow Him. Some things God withholds from us in mercy for a time. We may not see how he's being merciful, but withholding that from us is. When we do receive something, it's easy to congratulate ourselves and think we deserve it because we're so good and righteous. That's not the case either. It's our lives are good because God is good. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I'm here with my obedient co-host, John, by the way. John, the lesson this week is titled, I have seen your sacrifices in obedience. When I saw that, I thought that's John, obedient. From what you've seen, yeah. Right, right. In public, at least. Yeah. Right. That's right. John, we are honored today to have with a sister Brittany Chapman.

Nash. Britney, welcome to follow him. I'm happy to be here. Thanks. We've had some fun prior to recording. Oh, we, John and I have had fun. Brittany's been tolerant. Yeah. We've, we've been peppering her with questions about her and her background. It's, it's been a lot of fun for us to learn. John, the lesson this week is on sections 129 through 132. We are nearing the end of the doctrine and covenants. Does anything come to mind when you think of these sections? Theological dynamite? Could we say it that way?

There's some things in 130 that talk about the nature of God that are pretty unique to us. I'm really looking forward to Section 132 because I really want to learn and that's why I'm really glad we've got Redney with us today. I remember my good friend, Dr. Alex Baugh, he said, between 1820 and 1830, Joseph is cautious. He said between 1830 and 1840, and 1840, Joseph is courageous. And then he said from 1840 to 1844, he is fearless. We're starting to see that here in these sections. Brittany, as you've prepared for today, what are we looking forward to? Like you mentioned, these sections are riddled with interesting doctrinal concepts. We're addressing

everything from how to interact with a ministering angel to our celestial exaltation in D&C 132. We're dealing with a lot of weighty matters. I'm excited to explore some of these concepts, particularly I hope to share some experiences that Latter-day Saints had living polygamously, because right there is where we come to understand the theology a little more of plural marriage, how it was lived out. That's important for us to be able to sort of wrap our minds around the theology itself. John, do you remember Dr. McLean Heuard coming on and telling us get to know these people? Instead of being offended on their behalf, get to know them, know their stories. I'll never forget that.

Instead of being offended for them, let's be inspired by them. I thought, wow, like you say, Hank, that should be in vinyl on the wall somewhere. Absolutely. John, I have to tell you, when it comes to choosing the guest for a certain episode, I'm navigating it, letting it flow and see what happens. This particular episode, John, I can tell you 100% I knew four years ago when we were with Dr. Kate Holbrook, I knew when we were recording who would come on or who at least I was going to invite to come on for this episode.

So this is for me, four years in the making. Now, there might be people out there who have not been planning on meeting Brittany for four years. So what do we know about her? I have listened to sister Brittany Chapman Nash's work, but I haven't met her. There's a series of books that Desert Books has produced in the past several years called Let's Talk About. And it's some of the tough issues. Let's talk about it. What do we know?

What don't we know? And one of Brittany's is, let's talk about it. about polygamy. Brittany, I'm curious. Can you tell us about that whole process of putting that book together? So I received the invitation to write Let's Talk About Polygamy when my first born child was three weeks old. You're not busy. I know. A huge learning curve there with motherhood. And I'd done some work before working on the Women of Faith in Latter-day series. And I'd come to really admire and love the women in Latter-day St. History. It was so inspired by their story. and lives of faith, many of whom practiced polygamy. So when I was asked to write this book,

you know, I was totally overwhelmed, as you can't imagine, with a newborn. My husband encouraged me to give it a try, think about it. Eventually, I decided, and Deseret Book was gracious in giving me a long timeline, and it took three years to write this little tiny book. One reason I accepted was because I knew it was going to be a short book. And I thought, okay, yeah, I could do a short book. But little did I realize how difficult it would be to talk about such a huge subject in a hundred pages. That really required a lot of discipline in sifting through the sources and stories, you know, what's the most important thing to include? And you really did have to think about how to use every single word because there's a lot of material to cover, a lot of things that I

wanted people to understand about the practice that I wanted to include. And so you just had to be concise and make it as accessible as possible. I really wanted people to come to understand those who practiced polygamy in the 19th century. Well, we all owe a debt of gratitude to Peter then. It is a phenomenal book. It really is. It can be life-changing, testimony-changing.

I loved it. Yeah. Let me tell our audience more about Brittany. Brittany Chapman Nash. She's been a historian for the Church History Department for about 12 years, even though those who are watching her saying she can't be that old. She specializes in women's history, as she talked about. So let's talk about polygamy.

That's the book we've mentioned. And she also worked on the Women of Faith in the Latter-day series. She taught English in Taiwan. And she studied Victorian studies in the UK at the University of Leicester. She has a son who's seven, a daughter who's four. I'm just excited that we have her here. Like you said, Hank, who else would you trust to talk about this topic? Honestly, tell you exactly what we know.

I'm really glad you're here. Thank you for saying that. I feel like the people that I'm trusting to tell the story are the 19th century saints themselves. Whatever I say comes from them. I'm relying on how they've expressed themselves because who better to talk about polygamy than those who practiced it. It's not me. It's them. I have learned through my years of rotating around the sun that if there's a scandalous story, if you can talk to the person, that helps a lot more than talking to each other.

Yes. And sometimes when we're dealing with abstract thoughts of like, oh, I wonder what this is like. We often will go to the worst case scenario of what it could be like or think of that most scandalous story, which there certainly were in plural marriage situations. by and large, that was not people's experience. I want to hear it from the people involved. In fact, I would love if people did that to me, right? If someone said, I heard this, I'm going to go talk to him about it rather than spread the fire. Let's read from the Come Follow Me Manual and jump in. We already are.

Like I said earlier, the lesson is titled, I have seen your sacrifices in obedience. This is how the manual begins. Through Joseph Smith, the Lord took some of the mystery out of eternity. the greatness of God, the glory of heaven, and the vastness of eternity can seem almost familiar in the light of the restored gospel, even to finite minds like ours. The revelations in Doctor and Covenants 129 through 132 are a good example. What is God like? He has a body as tangible as man's. What is heaven like? That same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there. In fact, one of the most joyous truths about heaven is that it can include our cherished

family relationships if sealed by proper authority. Truths like these can make heaven feel less distant, glorious, yet reachable. But then sometimes God may ask us to do things that seem uncomfortable and unreachable. For many early saints, plural marriage was one such commandment. It was a severe trial of faith for Joseph Smith, his wife Emma, and almost everyone who received it. To make it through this trial, they needed more than just favorable feelings about the restored gospel. They needed faith in God that went far deeper than that. The commandment no longer stands today, but the faithful example of people who lived it still does. And this example inspires us when we are asked to make our own sacrifices in obedience. Wow. Well written. And we have the perfect guess

for it. Brittany, where do you want to go from here? I liked the quotation that they included from Brigham Young stating, Joseph Smith could reduce heavenly things to the understanding of the finite. They were trying to grapple with really big, heavenly things and bring them down to a way that a regular person could understand them. We see that happening with some of the direct instructions that are given in D&C 129, and then on in some of these other sections. Thinking back on Brigham Young's quote, that was something he and other early converts loved about the gospel as preached by Joseph Smith.

Brigham Young in his own search had been seeking to know not just about the life of God as God asks us to live through morals, and he wanted to know God in an embodied and tangible sense. Joseph Smith, through a revelation, was able to offer those ideas to him and other converts. Yeah, taking heaven and making it somewhat, they used in the manual, reachable. Yeah. Accessible. I can't comprehend it, but I can see. a piece, no. Right. I kind of see some familiarity. As we've seen throughout the Doctrine and

a Covenants, some of these revelations come as a result of questions that Joseph Smith is asking. He's seeking answers to questions, and that spurs revelation. So if we look at D&C 129, the questions that Joseph Smith is asking, like, who are the beings in heaven? What do they look like? How can we detect false spirits. That was a sincere question that people had at the time. If we look at Section 129, answers to the questions, angels are resurrected persons with bodies of flesh and bones like Jesus, the spirits of perfected and just men who have not yet resurrected. So those are the beings in heaven. Then how can we detect false spirits? This echoes 1 John 4.1, where it encourages people to try or test the spirits to know whether or not they are from God.

Joseph Smith offers this shaking hands test, which as a kid I always found was like, oh, okay, I have to remember this case I ever receive an angelic visitation. So he's offering this formula of how can you tell that something's from God? The part that's really intriguing to me starts in verse 8 where it says, if it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands, he will offer you his hand and you will not feel anything. You may therefore detect him and no, it is not an angelic messenger. And then concludes, these are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God. How do these things apply to us who may not receive angelic visitations on the

regular? It reminded me of an experience that I had while looking at what senses are people relying on to discern whether or not a message is from God. He's using his physical senses, not feeling anything with his hand. He's seeing something. In verse 8, it says, The devil may look like an angel of light. It may seem through this one physical sense, light, that it is a heavenly visitor.

Through another physical sense, touch and using reason, a person could detect false spirits. As I was pondering how this could apply to me, I was thinking about the importance of reason, of using our reason in spiritual things and in understanding perhaps how God may be communicating with us because that's not a tool that I've always used in my life. So often I've depended on just one of those senses, you know, how I feel to discern whether or not God is communicating with me. But I haven't used a second sense, is God speaking to my reasoning as well. To share an example to hopefully, maybe will be helpful to someone, I was thinking back on a story from my young adulthood when I was

thinking about what to major in in college. I was in turmoil thinking about what to do because I really wanted this significant manifestation and guidance because I felt it was so critical to my future life. I first went to a small liberal arts college called Southern Virginia University for my first two years. Wonderful experience. I felt that I should major in music at that time because I enjoy singing. I did that and it was a fantastic experience at SVU because you're in this cozy, lovely community. People are encouraging you. You have lots of opportunities to share your talents and you're appreciated for your talents because at the time when I went, there were less than 400 students. It was a lovely place. Yeah. I was there in the beginning too. Just a tight,

tight little community that went to Subway together. Exactly. Then I transferred to BYU after two years there. I thought I better follow this initial prompting that I received to study music. BYU is a fantastically different experience than SvU. There's tens of thousands of students. And you don't know everyone. No.

The music program there is extremely competitive. My first year there, I was preparing myself to get ready to try out for the music school. It was a torturous year I held on because I was going to follow this prompting I had received. I was relying solely on feeling and not using my reason as well. I am not speaking comprehensively to all spiritual experiences, but I'm sharing this for what it's worth. I found by the end of the school year, I was praying not to get into the music school because it was just so competitive. I didn't want to major in music, but I didn't know how to get my head out of this commitment I had to this spiritual impression. Heavenly Father, please take it back, right?

Yeah. I did not get into the music school, and I was so relieved because I felt this immense relief that I could do what I wanted, like, use my own path, use my reason. At that time in my life, I didn't know how to detect or trust my reason because I was being pulled by emotion. I think by that point, we need to be careful mixing emotion with spiritual promptings. And our reason can kind of help us make that discernment. If I had trusted my reason a bit more than I did, I would have been spared, a very difficult experience, potentially. But the Lord makes all things for our good. And for me looking back, thinking about how God does communicate with us, I believe he appeals to both our

intellect and our spirits. Brittany, you were talking about the senses, right? Touch, sight. And you're talking about feeling. It's Alma 32, where Alma's talking about the seed and it grows. And he says, you will taste this light. When you have tasted this light, yeah, which is a mix of metaphors. Usually we see the light and we taste the fruit. Here we're going to taste the light. None of us walked into our studio today and went, that light tastes good, right? Like this is a good light.

It tastes good. I threw that in as a cross-reference. He'll look like an angel of light. so maybe it looks but it's not the same doesn't taste right i'm not discerning it yeah it's like a painted fire it looks the right but it doesn't feel the same it's easy to forget that god wants to communicate with us he wants to reach us it's good to seek for multiple ways that he's trying to speak to us it is something that takes time and experience to discern this was one experience from my life that helped me to see more clearly how god communicated or

with me and that it was important to use both reason and feeling. That's in the doctrine and covenants as well. I'll speak to your mind and to your heart. Almost like a gas pedal and the brake pedal. Mind and heart. I need both of these. I think that's a great analogy. Yeah. Brittany, you made me chuckle earlier when you said, for those of us who don't have these regular experiences with angels, here's Joseph Smith, writing this out. He seems almost casual with, Doesn't this happen to everybody? Yeah. This is good knowledge, because you might use this on a daily basis.

And you and I, especially when I was younger, I remember thinking, what? Okay. I'll remember this in case this ever happens. In your study of Latter-day Saint history, there's angels. Yeah, and people, early Latter-day Saints, were receiving visitations. It was more of a spiritual gift that they sought after. at the time. That's one way that they received messages spiritually that they were open to. Yeah. And I would imagine anyone who receives these types of experiences keeps them pretty close to

there. Right. Right. Pretty close there. I would guess that the things you've read about are probably in journals, letters. They tend to, yeah, not be in published sources. Wow. John, this probably happens to you. You're probably, I've used this. Yeah, probably. No, in fact, what you got me thinking about was one of the things that we've learned this year, as the first missionaries went out in the restoration,

they weren't talking about the first vision. They were talking about the Book of Mormon. Maybe that was one of those experiences that Joseph eventually had to tell how this all started, but he held that close at first. I also am reminded of Elder Bruce Armaconke.

I introduced my students to Elder McConkey because we have a lot of quotations from him, and I always say, Elder McConkey said something about everything. So sometimes if you can't find a statement, you'll probably find something that Elder McConkey said. He said sometimes these experiences, and I'm paraphrasing a bit, are so miraculous, they get written up in the scriptures. It's not the typical experiences sometimes that are written up. It's the miraculous ones.

It may be for Joseph Smith, this was typical. But for the rest of us, we're okay, I'll keep that in mind if I ever need that probably the vast majority of us won't. I think he was also responding to people approaching him and saying, how do I tell

the difference if I'm seeing these angels? John, it reminds me, we've had two Olympians on this year, Peter Vidmar and Noel Picus Pace and they've talked about the Olympics so casually, oh, don't you hate it when you're in the Olympics and you get hurt? And we're both trying to go,

Yeah, yeah. He seems to, and some of these early saints, seem to live in a beautiful, spiritual realm that maybe we all don't live in. So we shouldn't balk at it. We should probably say, wow, that's amazing that you even need this instruction. Yeah. I like the way the manual is introduced that they're going to tell us things about the next life. What kind of beings are there? There's resurrected beings.

So flesh and blood is referring to a mortal body. one that's capable of death. And in the resurrection, this section references Jesus saying, Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones. So a resurrected being is flesh and bones. A flesh and blood body has bones too. That's why it used to confuse me as a kid. A mortal is referred to as flesh and blood and being quickened by the spirit.

I don't know what you guys think that means. quickened is powered by maybe so it's interesting that he makes that distinction jesus post-resurrection was flesh and bone mortals are flesh and blood yeah that's interesting britney you're the historian here so you can absolutely correct me this section changed for me after i went through the presentation of endowment angels shaking hands detecting you know light from dark Isn't this around the same time period where Joseph is receiving revelation on the presentation of the endowment? I love that you bring that up pink. In May 1842 is when the first endowment was presented.

This section was given February 9, 1843. At this time, people were only going receiving their endowment for themselves. So they weren't returning back to the second floor of the red brick store, receiving. another endowment for a proxy endowment. You can see that it was on people's minds what's the significance of our interactions with the next world, of shaking hands, of what these things could mean or what implications could they have. This was a good clarification for people, not just with the meaning of the endowment and how to interpret their spiritual experiences. Wow. Maybe I used to, when I was younger, block at this section, kind of go, what?

in the world. But now I'm pretty inspired that people live in this spirituality, this time of spirituality, that they need this instruction. I want to be there. I want to be in that space. It reminds me, Hank and Brittany, of the time in the Book of Mormon when, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also? And maybe, you know, that's part of that period of time. There are a lot of believers and a lot of manifestations, and they had to figure out which ones are legit. I was looking in Steve Harper's book. We've had Dr. Harper on the show before with context.

And I loved the first paragraph and the last paragraph of what he said about Section 129. Section 129 is esoteric. It can only be understood by people with temple knowledge. It's also euphemistic. It's no more about handshaking than kicking the bucket is about actually kicking a bucket. And then his last paragraph. paragraph, part of being endowed with God's power is the ability to discern, truth and false messengers. And we might even say messages. As Joseph taught, if Satan could appear in the

guise of an angel without having any ability to know better, we would not be free agents. What I love about this is the Lord is telling us, I don't want you to be deceived, giving you the keys to discernment. More about discernment than about shaking hands. I would agree. That's beautiful. If Steve's out there listening, we'll test him right now. So nobody tell him, nobody tell him that we're testing to see if he listens. So, Steve, if you're listening, you better text me in the word esoteric.

But nobody tell it. Nobody tell him. Jen, not even you. Thank you for what you wrote, Steve, because that helped me. It's a bigger issue than just handshaking. It's God doesn't want us to be deceived. I like what it says here. It's contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive.

Yeah. I love that. Discernment. Okay. Brittany, what do you want to do next? Okay. Well, let's flip to section 130. Here, the questions that are being asked are things like, what is heaven?

And what meaning do our experiences and relationships on earth have in heaven? Heaven will be a familiar place to us. It's not something to be scared of, but to look forward to. If we begin with verse one, it gives a really revolutionary piece of theology, which I think is unique to Latter-day Saints. It says, When the Savior shall appear, we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves. A lot of early church members are coming from a Trinitarian worldview, where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God in three persons. The concept of seeing Jesus Christ as a man like

ourselves would be mind-blowing. To those like myself who are raised in the church, it's just like, oh yeah, you know, of course, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings to a new listener. That's striking. Even though the Savior will look like us, that doesn't mean that he is like us. We should not consider him an equal because he's infinitely higher than us. He's not on our level. We need him and will continue to need him and the atonement that he gifted us. He has the ability to lead us higher and that he is someone familiar. That is a nice thought. I remember Elder Maxwell said, mercifully he calls us his friends. Not by entitlement, not because we're so good. Right. He says any relation and where we stand next to him tells us we do not stand at all. We kneel.

He is kind to bring us to speak with him, but I like what you said there. We're not entitled to a let's look eye to eye and talk. No, it's his condescension and kindness to us. And to even give us his physical form is pretty amazing. What a great gift and trust in a way to us. That's a great thought. If we move on to verse two, it says, And the same sociology which exists among us here will exist among us there, referring to heaven.

Only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy. This is one of my favorite verses in all of Scripture because of the reassurance that it gives me. We find so much joy in our friendships. familial relationships, what gives meaning to life, I think, is those who are loved ones who we're surrounded by. To know that that can continue coupled with eternal glory is wonderful to think about. I think in my life, there's been a few moments where I could say this is perfect, the people that you're with, and there's just perfect unanimity of feeling and you feel understood and loved. There's a few times in my life where I feel like I've

tasted heaven. It's always been when I'm in the company of others. As I think also about the concept of eternal glory, I think of what grace hopefully that gives us coupled with eternal glory. Maybe we won't have the obstacles that prevent us from having better relationships now in our lives, whether I think of relationships that I wish I could have a do-over with. I wish I understood that person better. I wish I had not been so prideful in my interaction. I hope that that screen of humanity of misunderstanding is taken away, that that's part of that concept of being coupled with eternal glory. I yearn for a do-over in some situations that I've had with people because we are finite human beings. We don't have the knowledge we wish we had about other people.

I think this statement from Joseph Smith could have ended up in Section 130 right here. John and Brittany, you both know this. Friendship is one of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism designed to revolutionize and civilize the world, cause wars and contentions to cease men to become friends and brothers. Yeah, that's fantastic. John, do you remember when Dr. Rebecca Clark was here and she talked, I think, Fourth Nephi, where she talked about heaven.

She said, picture heaven. She said, you don't picture streets, golden streets, and harps or clouds. Who do you picture? Your friends, your family, people. Heaven is all about people. Brittany, what a beautiful thought. How did you say that? The times you have tasted heaven, it was with people.

Mm-hmm. I think there are tree of life moments where you feel the love of God. It's with people that you're with. Two is one of my favorite verses, and it seems like most people in or out of our particular faith have this idea that I'll see them again, that, oh, they're watching over us now, or I felt my mom with me today, or I felt my dad with me today, for him to just come out and say it, yep, the same sociality which exists here will exist there is huge, and I love it. And I have that expectation of seeing everybody again, and they seeing us and wonderful reunions. We talk about it all the time. I think I've told you this before, but I had a member of my ward who said, I've been to a lot of meetings, which we all have. Sister Marsh, who loves our podcast, she said, but the meetings that have changed me the most have been funerals.

One of those is it creates that expectation of we'll see them again. Yeah. I love this verse to tell us, yep, you will. Another interesting way of looking at this verse from a historical perspective is it shows a cultural shift of the way people are viewing heaven. They're increasingly viewing marriage as union based on love and romance and also heaven as that our earthly ties are reflected back in heaven again. heaven is a place where they will not only glorify God, but also continue to be with our loved ones. Brittany, I just want to sit here for a second in these little tastes of heaven that we have with people. Sarah and I, when we have an evening with Lynn and Haley or Jeff and Julie or Tyler and Leisha, those are. They fill your heart and mine.

And it's just being together. It really is just being together. You're mostly talking about your kids or talking about your work, very mundane things. I think you're right there. I put a name to something I've always felt, which is just a taste of heaven. John, we should issue a challenge out there for everyone listening to text a friend and say something like that. I had a taste of heaven. Yeah.

You give me a taste of heaven. Our friendship gives me a taste for heaven. Something like that. Brittany, I love it when I've felt something and someone puts a name to it, a description to it. Articulates it. Yeah. Love what you said. I have people, so do all of us that we miss dearly.

There's this hopeful expectation of that sociality, which is a strange word I've only seen in one place in my life right there. That idea that, nope, that expectation is there will be that. kind of community. There will be those moments again with the groups that we love. And that gives such hope to us, in such meaning, no way to keep us going when things are hard to look forward to being in that perfect state with our loved ones forever. Brittany, we've had two of your colleagues who have been on the show and have since passed away, Melissa and away. And then four years ago, the same section in the Doctor in Covenants with Kate Holbrook. I think Joseph Smith said the idea that I will see my friends again, my family again.

That is a glorious expectation. It's not just a hope. It becomes an expectation. And I think that's probably the only way to deal with the depth of sorrow when you lose someone you love so dearly. That's the hopeful view. Yeah. My heart has been full of Kate Holbrook thinking about her all day. today knowing that four years ago she spoke on these sections, how much I loved and admired her

as a friend and human being. I was thinking about Melissa as well as another colleague of mine who passed away. I was thinking about my last interaction with Melissa, the last conversation we had. In April 2024, I was going to speak at Southern Virginia University to give a talk there to the students. Melissa had also spoken there. And when we talked, she wasn't talking about the cancer that she was seriously suffering with. She wasn't talking about her hardships. She just cheerfully asked me, oh, Brittany, have you spoken at SVU yet? Remembering this conversation we had before and I just was so struck by that to be in the midst of such suffering, but yet still remembering this silly conversation you'd had with a friend. I'm very grateful to have had those two

wonderful colleagues and friends in my life. The same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there. Only it'll be better. Right. Wow. What better thought. Let's just end there. One of the things that we loved about what Melissa taught us was that we can speak of others and redeem their reputations. This tells us we're going to see these people again. We've got to be careful how we talk about people that we're going to see again and help them redeem their reputation that goes right along with this. We're going to see him again. I imagine listeners may be hearing this for the first time going, really? With that kind of a, oh, I'm so glad. When you think of the infant mortality and all the babies that Joseph and Emma buried and everybody

else, just infant mortality being high and malaria and the sicknesses, that expectation of reunions is, really? John, I had this prepared for a little bit later in our show, but I think it's a good place to read this now. This is Party P. Pratt when he says Joseph told me about eternal marriage. He said, it was at this time I received from him, Joseph Smith, the first idea of eternal family organization and the eternal union of the sexes in those inexpressible, endearing relationships which none but the highly intellectual, the refined and pure in heart know how to

prize, and which are at the very foundation of everything worthy to be called happiness. Till then I had learned to esteem kindred affections and sympathies as appertaining solely to this transitory state, I think meaning this earth, as something from which the heart must be entirely weaned in order to be fitted for its heavenly state. It was Joseph Smith who taught me how to prize the endearing relationships of father and mother, husband and wife, brother and sister, son, and daughter. It was from him that I learned that the wife of my bosom might be secured to me for time and all eternity. And she had passed away thankful Pratt in Kirtland. And that the refined sympathies and affections which endeared us to each other

emanated from the fountain of divine eternal love. It was from him that I learned that we might cultivate these affections and grow an increase in the same to all eternity, while the result of our endless union would be an offspring as numerous as the stars from heaven or the sands of the seashore I had loved before, but I knew not why. But now I loved with a pureness, an intensity of elevated, exalted feeling which would lift my soul from the transitory things of this groveling sphere and expand it as the ocean. Boy, could parley write, huh? Yeah. I wish I could right like Parley P. Pratt. I know. So Parley P. Pratt had quite a few wives. He was one of the few men, I think, who was able to make all of his wives feel equally loved. Each of them felt very special to him

and uniquely loved by him. That's a special gift that not every plural husband had. There's something about Parley and family relationships that he really seemed to grasp and see value in. Well, that's a trailer for things to come. Brittany, we've had you for a while now, and we've only covered a little bit of the lesson. What else do you want to hit in Section 130? I know you'd love to cover every verse. I want to get to 132. We'll jump to verse 18, where it says,

whatever principle of intelligence we attained into in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another. He will have so much the advantage in the world to come. This is some great food for thought approaching this life as a training ground. We can use our time here well and view it as the great school that it is, or we can squander our time. What is unique about this life that maybe we can't learn in heaven? A reason that we had to come here to our earthly bodies. That is one thing. One way we obtain knowledge in this life is through what we experience in our bodies. We learn so much with our bodies. Discipline, doing physically difficult

things, how to bridle our passions. Our passions can be diverse, you know, gluttony, sexuality. We're trying to learn how to discipline ourselves. Also illness. It's so difficult to endure illness. to not have our bodies function the way we want them to. But that is also a huge training ground as well. I remember I had a C-section when I gave birth to my second daughter. The recovery process is difficult. For the first time, I got a glimpse into what it might be like to experience chronic illness, the difficulty that that could cause.

That made me think of Spencer W. Kimball. I don't know if either of you remember much about his legacy with illness. I'll just jump to one quotation. He suffered with so many things beginning in his childhood, with boils in his 30s, multiple heart attacks in his 50s, and then recurring throat cancer that affected the way that he spoke. And as an apostle and later prophet, that's essential to be able to speak to church members.

And then in his 80s, he suffered three brain hemorrhages. he's dealt with these incredibly difficult physical challenges while operating under heavy responsibility in a public position. He said this, which I think of occasionally when I'm feeling sorry for myself if I'm not feeling well or something. He says, have you ever seen someone who has been helpless for so long that he has divested himself of every envy and jealousy and ugliness in his whole life and who has perfected his life, no pain suffered by man or woman upon the earth will be without its compensating effects if it be suffered in resignation and if it be met with patience. Sickness sometimes is a great blessing. People become angels through

sickness. So I reflect on how purifying if people let it physical ailments can be and that's tough to do. That's one thing we can learn, gaining intelligence and knowledge in this life. Eventually, that knowledge will be an advantage in the world to come somehow through what it teaches us spiritually. I'm glad that you brought up this verse, Brittany, I've always, whatever principle of intelligence we attain into in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. It kind of makes you want to make a list. What else can I take with me? What gets past the checkout counter called death? Yeah.

I remember Ogmandino, who wrote something like, Death will unload thy cargo, whatever you attain in this life. So it's a fun question. What actually goes with us? You are talking about things that fit in your spirit, getting our spirit to be in charge of our body. That's one of the things that we learn. I remember hearing a speaker a long time ago,

way before Hank was born, before both of you were born, before I went on a mission where somebody said, the things we can take with us are our character, our intelligence, and our relationships. And I never forgot that idea. They all fit in our spirit, our character, our intelligence, our relationships. Then he said, why is it we work so hard for things we cannot take with us, often at the expense of those we can, which was a, whoa, type of a, Amen.

If we're working hard for things that will be unloaded at that checkout counter-call death. Sorry, I can't take that with you. We can take that with us. It's fun to think of decisions. In fact, when I heard this, it was before my mission. And I contemplated would a mission build character, intelligence, relationships? Absolutely. And help me make that decision.

and eternal decisions that build things that actually I can take with me in the resurrection. It reminds me of this fun little story, President Faust told. He's quoting Elder L. Ray L. Christiansen, who told President Faust about one of his distant Scandinavian relatives who joined the church. He was very well off, sold his lands and stock in Denmark to come to Utah with his family. For a while, he did well as far as his church and activities were concerned, and he prospered financially. However, he became so caught up with his possession that he forgot about his purpose in coming to America. The bishop visited him and implored him to become active as he used to be.

The years passed and some of his brethren visited him and said, Now Lars, the Lord was good to you when you were in Denmark. He has been good to you since you have come here. We think now, since you're growing a little older, that it would be good for you to spend some of your time in the interests of the church. After all, you can't take these things with you when you go. Jolted by this comment, the man replied, well then I will not go

And President Fowl says but he did And so will all of us He says it's so easy for some to become obsessed With what they possess and lose eternal perspective Absolutely You know one time Hank and Brittany Barney Fife is looking at his paycheck And he says to Andy

Well look at all these deductions and this tax And Sheriff Taylor says, you know what they say, Barnes, you can't take it with you. And Barney Five says, well, take it with me. They keep picking at me like this. I won't be able to go myself. It's so much better when you do it, John. Even Alma said to Corianton, behold, you cannot carry them with you. And it's a really interesting thing to think, what can we take?

And the one who put it so beautifully was President Dallin A. Chokes in his talk, the challenge to become. What we get to keep is what we have become. That helps us understand the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, too, of not sharing, boy, they were so selfish. Well, no, it's not that. It's that you can't share what you've become. Hank, you're really charitable. Can I have some of your lifetime of charity? You can't share that, you know.

And I'd give it to you if I could, right? Yeah, but it's unshareable. We take with us what we have become. We take with us the knowledge and intelligence, but also obedience and diligence, the knowledge of our Savior that we have received through being obedient and diligent. So we've come to know the Savior in a way we couldn't otherwise. In verse 21, it says, And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. There can be two dangers in how we read this verse.

If we feel we are not receiving the blessings we want, it's because we have been disobedient or have not hit on the perfect formula of how to pray or we're not righteous enough to receive that blessing. But some things God withholds from us in mercy for a time. We may not see how he's being merciful, but withholding that from us is. Second, when we do receive something, it's easy to congratulate ourselves and think we deserve it because we're so good and righteous. That's not the case either. It's our lives are good because God is good, not because of what we've done that makes us deserve it. Even though we

certainly benefit from obeying the laws of God, that goes without saying. That's what we're intended to do. That provides the outlet where God can give us certain blessings. I don't think we should go around feeling that we deserve every good thing that happens to us. Was it Elder Christofferson who used the vending machine example? If I do this obedience, I get this blessing. And if it doesn't pop out right now, I get really mad. I'm hitting the machine and everything. Where's my blessing?

Sometimes there's a waiting period that occurs. John, I have that quote right in front of me, if you don't mind. I'll steal your spotlight here. Yeah, share it. He said, this is April of 2022, so fairly. recent. Some misunderstand the promises of God to mean that obedience to him yields specific outcomes on a fixed schedule. They might think if I diligently serve a full-time mission, God will bless me with a happy marriage and children. Or if I refrain from doing schoolwork on the Sabbath, God will bless me

with good grades. Or if I pay tithing, God will bless me with that job I've been wanting. If life doesn't fall out precisely this way or according to an expected timetable, they may feel betrayed by God. But things are not so mechanical in the divine economy. We ought not to think of God's plan. This is what you said, John, as a cosmic vending machine where we, one, select a desired blessing, two, insert the required sum of good works, and three, the order is promptly delivered. He says, God will indeed honor his covenants and promises to each of us, we need not worry about that. The atoning power of Jesus Christ, who descended below all things, and then ascended on high, and who possesses all power in heaven and in earth ensures that God can and will fulfill his promises. It is essential that we

honor and obey his laws, and then this is, I think, what Brittany you are getting at, but not every blessing predicated on obedience to law is shaped, designed, and timed according to our expectations. We do our best, but we must leave to him the management of blessings, both temporal and spiritual. It's truth. And then in verse 22, it says, the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, the Son also, but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. If we weren't heretics before. I know. It explodes the Trinity concept completely. If it wasn't already exploded in the first verse of Section 130. This further clarifies how divergent it is from other faiths.

If people say you're not Christian because you don't believe in the Trinity, this verse is evidence. Joseph Smith took hundreds of years of religious tradition and exed it in one verse. But one in purpose. Have either of you ever been to maybe the anti-pagent or perhaps the Hillcumor pageant and had somebody hand you a leaflet that says, These people, they actually think that God has a body. Well, this tradition of passing out pamphlets has a long history. There was an anti-Christian writer, a name Selsus, who wrote on the true doctrine, a discourse against the Christians. This is 178 AD.

This is before the first creed. This is translated by R. Joseph Hoffman. Now, this is amazing. The Christians say God has hands, a mouth, and a voice. They're always proclaiming that God said this or God spoke. The heavens declare the work of his hands, they say. I can only comment, such a God is no God at all, for God has neither hands, mouth, or voice, nor any characteristics of which we know.

They say that God made man in his image, failing to realize, God is not at all like a man, nor vice versa. God resembles no form known to us. They say God has form, namely the form of logos who became flesh in Christ. But we know that God is without shape, without color. They say God moved above the waters he created. But we know it's contrary to the nature of God to move. Their absurd doctrines even contain references to God walking about in the garden he created for man.

I sure do. They speak at him being angry, jealous. moved to repentance, sorry, sleepy, in short as being in every respect more a man than a God. You ready, you guys? They have not read Plato, who teaches us in the Republic that God, the good, does not even participate in being.

So here is a Plato follower criticizing the Christians for believing the same things that we believe today. If only somebody had done, prayed and actually seen God and maybe God talked to him. Maybe he would point to the other and say, this is my beloved son and point to the other, probably using his hand. It's interesting to think that you're right, Hank, who's the heretics? Well, the early Christians thought God had a body,

and there were anti-Christians writing against that belief. Wow. John, that's pretty cool. A little bit of what Brittany showed us in verse two plays out in verse 22 because how do you have a relationship with a God you can't see you can't touch

he's everywhere he's nowhere he's yeah I know among the three of us and all of our listeners many of our listeners that the idea of being held by God being embraced in the arms of his love

is an idea that yeah is a hopeful expectation. Yeah, that tangibility is something reassuring. Yeah, like you said, we look forward to that experience. The theologians, they took God's body, they took his gender. We have been disinherited. We no longer have a father in heaven. You remember probably, to me, the finest talk I've ever heard on our belief in the Godhead was Elder Holland. It was called the only true God. and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. He spoke about after one of the creeds that redefined the nature of God, that a monk named Serapian fell down, grabbed his head and said, woe is me, they have taken my God away from me, and I know not whom to address or to adore. Elder Holland referenced that,

and I think, wow, yeah, who am I supposed to worship now? What is God like? That's what we're right here. That was a yearning that Brigham Young expressed. He wanted to know God as a tangible, like, who is he? He's not just commandments. Who is God? They felt that Joseph Smith through his revelations provided that insight they yearned for. And we see that clearly here. Where would Satan start? He would start with trying to alter the nature of God, that the articles of faith come in the same order that things were messed up. I bet you both remember President Benson's quote, Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side

than to realize how well we know our father and how familiar his face is to us. And that's my favorite quotation I've ever heard, period, Hank, the one you just read. Brigitte Meung said, we're trying to become acquainted with our father in heaven. and the fact is we are already well acquainted with him. And there's not one of us who has not dwelt in his house year after year. And he said, no other one fact will so much astound us is that we were so stupid in the body. It's already astounding me. Yeah.

Brittany, John and I are having too good of a time here and we're talking too much. Keep going. Keep teaching. All right. If we go to DNC 131, This is an interesting section. This was not a revelation that Joseph Smith dictated word for word in the traditional sense of his revelations. This was a compilation of notes taken by William Clayton from a sermon of Joseph Smith for the 1876 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants compiled by Orson Pratt, as well as teachings that he gave to some close friends of his, Melissa and Benjamin Johnson, when he was teaching.

them about eternal marriage and preparing them to be sealed to each other. Orson Pratt was compiling revelations and other teachings of Joseph Smith. This was among his additions to the 1876 doctrine and covenants. We can think of it as teachings of Joseph Smith, but not someone writing down exactly word for word what Joseph Smith is saying. First one, it says, In the celestial glory, there are three heavens or degrees. There has been some discussion about this first verse. Does that mean that in the celestial kingdom, there are three degrees of glory within that? Or is it referring to simply the celestial, terrestrial and celestial kingdoms, those three kingdoms?

There's a compelling source by Orson Pratt, who was preaching in 1875. Hopefully we'll have some clarifying doctrine expressing exactly what we can. can expect in the next life with regard to this principle, because we don't have anything directly from Joseph Smith that I'm aware of that gives clarity to exactly what the celestial kingdom will look like in the next world. What our basic sense is that it's degrees of glory. Orson Pratt in 1875 said, Millions and millions that may reach the celestial kingdom if they embrace the gospel,

that will not reach the higher order of glory in that kingdom, for there are are different degrees of glory, even in that one kingdom. The reading of that verse has gone through different iterations through time. It seems most compelling to me that it implies that there are different degrees of glory within the celestial kingdom or within all of those kingdoms. We can view that by going back to a quotation by Orson Pratt. He was preaching in 1875. And Orson Pratt was an apostle to Joseph Smith, learned about plural marriage from him, like Parley P. Pratt in that quote that you read earlier, Hank, about learning from Joseph Smith the order of heaven and the role of the family in heaven. I would say that those brothers probably

have a pretty good understanding of what Joseph Smith had been expressing. Orson Pratt explains that there are different degrees of glory, even within the celestial kingdom. There will be people of all marital statuses who live in that kingdom, in the celestial kingdom. I can provide that exact quote if you would like. It's available online, but this particular sermon comes from the amazing transcriptions done by Lejean Karuth in the church history department. She has unlocked a whole world of sermons that were written in shorthand and had never been translated before written out into longhand. So she has a gift for shorthand. and has been going through these lost sermons and covering some lovely details to give more insight into history and theology from this early time period.

You are right. When you said this is theological, just point after point after point of, wow. Putting it side by side to what is being taught by other Christian faiths at the time, you see just how divergent it is, what people are used to. experiencing in church. Yeah. God has a body. I'm married in heaven. Yeah. I have the same sociality. This is really fun. I find myself frequently quoting section 131 verse 6 that you can't be saved in ignorance, meaning you eventually have to learn all these things. We won't go to the celestial kingdom and go, I have no idea how I got here. But I'm sure glad I'm here. So sometimes, Like maybe today, Brittany, we want to avoid some topics. Like, I'd rather not know about that.

And I think to Joseph Smith, the Lord is teaching here, it goes back to Section 130 to gain knowledge and intelligence in this life. I'm excited for us to continue our discussion because I can't be saved in ignorance. So I'm excited for Brittany to teach me. I also love verse 7. It's such a fascinating idea that all spirits is matter, but it is more fine or pure and can only be discerned by purer eyes. Wow.

Whoa, this is great stuff. What do you call this? Metaphysics? It's just so cool that we hear scriptural stories about our eyes were opened. And I just wonder if that's what it mean. A purer eye somehow can see spiritual things in a better way. But spirit is matter. it's just more pure and refined one of the reasons plato did not like this idea of god having a body if i

understand correctly is that matter is evil and coarse and unrefined in greek philosophy so for god to have a body but this is talking about refined beautiful the resurrection is a resurrected body it's not like the coarse corruptible to use paul's words type of body are am i on the right track here. I think that's super interesting. John, when you said, if we can become pure, we can see it. Do you remember Elisha and the young man

where the young man says, we're going to be destroyed? Elisha prays, dear Lord, open the eyes of this young man. And he sees the, what does he see? The horses and chariots of fire. Yeah.

Wow. John, I'd never connected those. Coming up in part two. A woman named Martha Cragan Cox. I just love her autobiography. She was married in 1869 through reading what became Section 132. By reading that revelation, she became converted to the principle of polygamy. She became converted to the principle of plural marriage and wanted to marry that way.

And her family was very upset and I'll read you their reaction. Thank you.