Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 133-134 Part 2 : Dr. Derek Sainsbury

Episode Date: November 14, 2021

Dr. Sainsbury continues and discusses how many Second Comings are indicated in Doctrine and Covenants 133, the importance of temples, and the uniting of people from every nation, religion, and people in the cause of Jesus Christ. We discuss the role of governments, slavery in the United States,  and the Saints’ continuing responsibility to serve civically.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodes/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Sponsor/MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Assistant Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts : French TranscriptsIgor Willians : Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Okay, and so just quickly like 36 through 40 we have this idea of okay, so like I said, this is the reason why I have brought the gospel and I'm sending missionaries to every nation. Now think this is this is received to 10 men in a council. There's 600 members of the church total. This is like crazy talk, right? This is, I mean, it's just absolutely crazy talk. I did the math, and so at that time in the world, not that I'm good at math, I used a calculator. At that time in the world, as a church, we represent a point zero, zero, zero, zero, zero,000006 of the world, right? I went out of

every 6 million people, right? It's just audacious, right? That this is what the church is. Even today, we represent less than 2.02% of the world's population. And listen to the way, you know, we, what we proclaim, right? Same. Yeah, same language This is what Stephen Stephen Harper one of our guests has said about this Because like you said, this is a 1831 He said about this revelation to a fledgling group of fallible Latter-day Saints gathered in a private home It sets forth an audacious scope of covering the globe with the restored gospel. And exactly, it's a bunch of guys in higher

Mojillo. And the Lord is talking about this global reach and Babylon and Quote and Scriptures from all over the place. And this is this is you 10 guys. Sometimes we can feel overwhelmed with what God has given us to do, but it's his work and he chooses weak and we can do it with him. We can do anything. I remember and I bet you both felt this way. I felt the same way with my patriarchal blessing. It felt audacious. It felt much bigger than I could imagine, right? Like, oh, I don't know. And this feels like a church patriarchal blessing. Section one, section one, 33.

This is gonna be, this is gonna be big. And it's, did you say 600? About 600, total 600 here. Yeah, about 600. And of course spread everywhere, right? Still some in New York, Trunk in Kirtland, and then spread out everywhere else. Okay, go cover the earth because I'm coming. Yeah, exactly.

And that's a good segue into the last of the second Cummings. This idea that he talks about in 41 to 51. So again, look how he introduces it bottom of verse 40 That that would has come down This is the prayer to the Lord come down that the mountains might flow down at thy presence again that idea that when you come All other earthly government societies or whatever are melt away. They're gone and Your presence will be as the melting of fire, as the fire which

causes the waters to boil. And we talk about how his glory is like a fire that cleanses. And again, I'm not discounting a literal, you know, some kind of glory fire that chemically makes everything pure. I'm not discounting that at all. But I like to add the melting fire that burneth and adds the fire which causes the waters to boil. This idea that fire is the other water, blood, and fire are the cleansing agents, right? And so some have been cleansed by water. Here some are being cleansed by fire and there's some being cleansed by blood, which we'll get to in just a minute.

And that all nations shall tremble at thy presence. So that idea, again, of earthquake, is the idea of it's such a shock to the world's system, right? That everything crumbles, that's not true. Everything crumbles that isn't following eternal law, whether inside or outside of the church, that everything that's not inspired by him trembles. There you got verse 43 that Thou doest terrible things. When Thou come down, the mountains will flow. We talked about 44 and 45, verse 46. He comes in, died garments.

He comes in red, right? And you know, why are you coming in red? And he's, first answer is I am he, verse 47, who spake in righteousness mighty to save. Well, what does that mean? Well, I'm in red because I, my garments are covered with grape juice from being the only one in the wine vat, right? So in those days, as you both know, the harvest of the grapes are then put in these big wooden vats. and the servants, generally in the ancient cultures, would have to go in there and literally squish

every single grape by foot. And I've watched videos of people doing it still today and it looked, so like, don't imagine like them coming up to your like shins. We're talking above the knees, full kind of thing. And you're in there, you know, just, and you gotta get every grape to get the juice out. And of course they'd be holding up their robes or

whatever. But there's no way you're gonna escape. Getting your clothes dirty and stained, right? These are, this is a stain because this stuff isn't coming out. I don't care much. You watch. So that's him in the garden to get 70. Exactly. By himself. Yeah, like in verse 50 and this voice shall be heard I have trodden the wine press alone. I have brought judgment upon all people and none were with me That's the gethsemane Or on the cross even none well It says it says that in in Matthew none were with him right and elder pollen gave that talk to none were with him

About about that moment. So that does tie it to get so many, doesn't it? And God, it does. And both of them, right? And and the bloodshed there, how crimson the cloak, Elder Maxwell used to always say, that we really don't show in pictures or we really don't show in our movies, just how bloodstained he would have already been his clothing would have already been coming out of the garden long before this other thing. And so that idea that I'm coming in red because I came mighty to save my red cloak here shows I'm mighty

to save every sin I have squashed? Every single one of them and taking them upon me and I can save anyone who will choose to be saved because I tread it alone. And then in verse 51, though, it changes. And I have trampled them in my fury. Now he's talking about the wicked, the Babylon, those that wouldn't choose. And I did tread upon them in my anger, and their blood have I sprinkled on my garments and stained all my raiment for this was the day of vengeance, which was in my heart. A lot of it are saints read that verse,

and they're not gonna recognize Jesus. Although that's really him, they're not gonna recognize him. I think sometimes we can make him, I say in my class, as we can make him into a teddy bear. And the teddy bear doesn't have power to save, right? And with this idea, because I'm going to see how quickly he shifts the language, but he's being very serious that the other reason blood would get on, or that kind of color would get on close in those days, were the priests who would offer to sacrifices, right? And the blood of those animals would,

of necessity, get on them. In fact, in some sacrifices, they're sprinkled on them on purpose. And so you can either accept the red cloak of forgiveness and repentance, or the red cloak of trampling and vengeance. It's very section 19, right? You can accept my atonement and repent,

or you'll have to suffer like I suffered. And that is being just perfect with the same red cloak, he's saying both things. And the division, right? Babylon and Zion. Right, we've got the same division. Exactly. Make a choice. Make a choice. I see the God of mercy and the God of justice in mercy in verse 50, justice in verse 51. And then verse 52. And I think this comes from

revelation again. Remember that he hears about the lion of Judah and he turns to look and it's a wounded lamb. It's a wounded meaning the scars of sacrifice, right? It would have had its throat slit basically. I think that's chapter 5, right? I think so. I think so. He's like, John is crying. There's no one to save Earth. Right. And here's the lion. And he turns and you're right. And there's this lion.

He sees a lamb, not a lion. He's wounded, right? Not just a lamb, but a lamb that has been wounded. It somehow has been, you can look at the marks and see he's been slain, but somehow he's alive. And look how quickly it changes. So 51 is that lion, right? No mercy ripping

things apart and then and now is the year of my redeemed come and they shall mention the loving kindness of their Lord and all that he has bestowed upon them according to his goodness and according to his loving kindness forever and ever in all their afflictions he was afflicted and the angel of presence saved them meaning him and in his love and in his pity he redeemed them and bored them and carried them all the days of old. I mean just like that the the the the whole feeling switches right away right so the the justice and the mercy and And as you pointed out, John, the mercy's before that too, right? So it's yeah, it's just the mercy. Right. Yeah. Love it. I like to share with my classes when we get to first Nephi

19, nine, that says, you know, they spit upon him and he suffered that they smite him and he suffered this girl, Jim and he suffered it and then it gives a because which is always wonderful to see. What was Jesus thinking? Well, it's my duty because of his long suffering and his loving kindness. And so when I saw that phrase, it just reminded me of that. His patience and his love for us are part of that God of mercy. And so then we see verse 53, his love. So I'm making my first Nephi 19, nine footnote there. Yeah, it fits. And again, right, pulling from all these scriptures. And we haven't even talked in great detail, which we don't have time for, and we don't really need to, of how many of the earlier sections that have already been given are, you know,

straightforward phrases that are mixed in here too. So it's even like the most recent revelations, right, are all being mixed together in this beautiful appendix. And then after talking about that, he talks about all throughout time, he's been with the people that they will resurrect, they've been resurrecting, and that the graves of the saints will be opened. And again, that idea of being on Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, being with the Lamb, seeing songs forever. And then he again, he goes, and so again, let me tell you now the third time, this is the reason third time, this is the reason that I have restored the fullness of the gospel in plainness and simplicity to prepare the weak for those things that are coming so that you can be in the right place. You can be more importantly, the idea right

isn't necessarily the right place, but the right person. You can be the right person with me and the weak things, I'm gonna come back to another thing in 58, but in 59, the weak things of the earth shall, and they've changed this word to thrash because it means the same thing, but thrash has come to mean something, this is a great metal band from the 80s.

Let's thrash the nations. I mean, I think that would be like the perfect metal band name for the 80s. The thrashers, yeah. The thrashers, oh, that's a good one too. But the idea that they're harvesting, right? The threshing of wheat, they're harvesting these week, these 600 people, right? They've gone out. And this is the reason I've given these commandments. And this is the reason they're carrying this book. And

again, I'm stopping one more time to say, look, this is the reason, right? This is the reason for what you're doing to answer their specific question. And the reason to the people who read these commandments slated down the road, including us, this is the reason to prepare you for the marriage, to prepare you to meet the Lamb and not the lion, to prepare you for Zion, not Babylon, however you want to look at that, that idea. That same idea, I call upon the weak things of the world, those who are unlearned and despised to thresh the nations by the power of my spirit, is section 35, verse 13. And it says,

and there, arms shall be my arm. And I always use that when I teach Ammon, because Ammon takes his arm out, and it says, I will show forth my power. And then he modestly says, well, the power that is in me. Because when it's the Lord's arm, that's whose arm he is using. And I love what that said in verse 58, 2, she'll put tens of thousands to flight. Right. Exactly. A little, a little one

shall become a, we've just been talking about all these nations being knocked down, right? flowing down like the mountains. And, you know, one little one is becoming a nation, 2 can put thousands to flight. There's an importance in that, like you mentioned, about how with God, you know, our weaknesses become strengths, and stronger than anything else that we could do. But there's also this idea,

and this is gonna feed into 134, which we're about to go, is that it's a, you know, because of sections like this that give this dichotomy, sometimes we think that you're either a Latter-day saint that's righteous or everybody else is killed. And that's just not true, right? And we've learned from other revelations and from other prophets that we will still be a very small

minor, here's one case of it, right? We will still be a very small minority of people one case of it, right? We will still be a very small minority of people on the earth when the Lord returns because I mean I'm not a big country music fan, but when Luke Bryan sings I believe most people are good, I'm on it. That's true. And this is really going to lead into our section 134 talk because this little one becoming a threat. We are little among the nations of the world if you look at the Zion as a nation or as a kingdom.

But when he comes, that's the kingdom he's coming to. And the world will need to be put back right. I mean, think of all the natural disasters, think of all the collapse of government. People will be wondering what the heck is going on, right? They saw God descend from heaven. And where is this, where is this cadre of people that God could turn to to go out amongst the world who already understand what's going on and in large part have become what's going on? And I think I think it's important to emphasize both of those points, one that there will be all kinds of good people left

here on the earth, that it's only the deep, that's being moved into the north, that there's good amongst all peoples. But also, there's something important about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There's something important about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There's something important about temple covenants that are, you know, in the sense priest and kings and queens and priestesses. There's something important about what we're being prepared for. We can get really, for at least I've noticed, we can get really narrow

in our understanding of what the second coming is, but what our role is, like after Adam and Adam and after the nice things that happen in the temple in the New Jerusalem, after the destruction of the wicked and all that, it's not just like God never uses a magic wand, to do things. There's not a magic wand that puts? To do things, there's not a magic wand that puts everything back together again. All the islands coming back together again, right? There will be a government and it will be him, right? But who's he working with?

This, I don't know, maybe work with kings and queens and priests and priestesses. And so it's just really, really just this beautiful idea that yes, you are small. Yes, your minuscule compared to the rest of the... Yes, I've given you a big job, but you can do it through me, right? But that job just doesn't end at the second coming. There's more after that, right? We're preparing the world for the second coming, and I just love that idea. I remember our interview with Mike McCay early on where he said, think of the church as a thread in a quilt, right?

Bringing these big patches of together, these patches of people, these wonderful people together who all love God, and you've gotta have a thread to bind them all together. And that's, he said, the Latter-day Saints are the thread. Maybe not the big quilt itself, but the thread of going through these nations and getting them all, you know, binding them all together.

I just, I love that you used a word dichotomy, and I always tell my students, okay, here comes a college word dichotomy, just the idea, and the scriptures do that a lot. They, I feel like if the Book of Mormon, in particular, had a personality, it's a very black and white book. It's this or it's this.

And I love what you said just there about, there's so many good people. And it's the dichotomy. I remember in 1st Nephi 13 and 14, we've got the great and abominable. And it's very much a dichotomous thing. It's this or it's this. And then Stephen Robinson wrote an article called

Waring Against the Saints of God to kind of expound on 1st Nephai 13 and 14 and one's written in apocalyptic, he would say, but he talked about it's more about it's it's being a member of the great and abominable or being a member of the Church of the Lamb of God. He said was more about who has your heart than who has your records. That's perfect. Yeah, you might remember that phrase and I thought, oh, thank you for saying it that way. We've all know there's so many good folks out there and it's going to be so nice to

unite together on what's good and right. What is a dichotomy? Let's explain to our listeners a dichotomy puts everything in two groups, right? Right. Either or it's one or the other. Yeah. And and their scriptures do have a lot, but we all know there's so much good out there that maybe doesn't fit a dichotomy. This or that is easily, but the Scriptures use those terms to teach us. Is that a fair way to say it? Yeah. And John, I would say that phrase that you borrowed there, maybe it's just reshifting

the dichotomy. So in other words, it's not the Church of Jesus Christ and the kingdom of the devil, it's who has your heart. And I think that's a better way of looking at it. In fact, does God have your heart? Yeah, does God have your heart? And there are so many people who are not of our faith and God has their heart. Or just the opposite.

There are those who have our records. If you go back all the way to verse two, the Lord says exactly what you said, John, he says, I come down as judgment upon the nations that forget God and upon all the ungodly among you. If you indulge me for a minute to tell a story that just happened to my family this past year, my son got a mission call to England and less than a month later, he had a freak infection that overnight attacked his brain and put him in the hospital and then he

able to control the right side of his body and only being able to say the word one, one, everything was one. The first night we thought we didn't think we'd get him back. The second night, we didn't think we were going to get him back, meaning he could live, but he may never think again, speak again, all this other, I mean, they did an emergency

surgery and all that stuff. Lots of prayers, lots of incredible miracles along the way. But the biggest one for our family, to be honest, was an incredible Methodist speech therapist who came to our home three times four times a week, sometimes on extra time not being paid by, you know, by the company she works for. And he left with full speech ability, full cognitive ability. She took home, she decided what, you know, what she helped him write his talk, right, his farewell for lack of a better term. She took home, preached my gospel, and read the whole thing in a weekend, and then came back and worked with all the terms in there that he, because his brain had to reconnect

thoughts to words, right? And so she went through all of the terms that he would be using on a mission, and some which are specifically LDS, but gospel terms. And then she would have him practice teaching her, right? And she would even correct him sometimes. No, that's not what you believe. I would hide in the next room so that I didn't interfere,

like because she'd ask him and he'd like, I don't know, I'm like, dude. But it was just an amazing experience. And they're still in contact, we're in contact with her. And she is like the most faithful, awesome, meth, she's a better Methodist than I am, a Latter-day Saint. I can tell you that right now.

And there's no way I could see God saying, oh, you're not, you're records are in the wrong place. You know, you can't be part of this great millennium. And so, yeah, and I just love, I just love that idea that, yeah, the scriptures talk in stark terms because it's a sense of urgency. It's easier to understand, but the nuance to it is also there if you're looking for it, right?

We just saw it in that verse that, yes, thank you, verse two. Yeah. That if you're ungodly, oh, you're a member of the church? Great. You're ungodly. Well, then no, you're not here. You get transferred and we'll see what we can do with you You know in the spirit world. So I yeah, I think that's important with where we're going because You know, what is that early government in the millennium? What does it look like? How does it operate? I mean these are esoteric questions

We don't know, but we do know a little bit about what the temple is supposed to be preparing us for. And we do know that he's going to come and find a kingdom that's going to spread the gospel and help help him rule. That's in that's an ancient and modern scripture, help him rule for a thousand years. So, yeah, I'm glad that we can. That's a great agreement on, you know, there's great people out there great Yeah, let's go into 134 which kind of is really helpful because the the the nation in which the restoration was was given and how that's going to work and how it's going to be in the context of the this relatively newly formed government, can

we jump into the backdrop of 134? Yeah, absolutely. Let me start with a quote and you tell me who said it. There is confusion in everything, both political and religious, and notwithstanding all the efforts that are being made to bring about a union, society remains disunited. And all attempts to unite it are as fruitless as an attempt to unite iron and clay. The feet of the image are the government of these United States. Other nations and kingdoms are looking up to her for an example of union,

freedom and equal rights, although they are beginning to lose confidence in her, seeing the broiles and the discords that rise on her political and religious horizon. Wow. Who said that? John Adams. Martin Luther King. I was going to say CNN.

Watching 10 Joes of Smith. It's Joseph Smith. It's Joseph Smith. Okay. Wow. But I mean, that could be pulled right out of our headlightens, couldn't it? It could be. Yeah, particularly the past year, again, you're in a half.

I mean, so well said. And so I use that as a way to introduce this idea that, you know, they were dealing with difficult things too, as far as government and religion, like we are today and often the roots are still the same. And Section 134 helps us a lot with bringing all the islands of the sea back together, using and defending the instrument that God has given us to be able to keep what we already have, right? There's no mistake that last general conference that President Oaks chose to talk about, I mean, he's the perfect one to do it, right? But that's a title, we must defend the Constitution, right?

And so let's look at where this actually comes from. So our dichotomy, right, of Zion, almost like a separate kingdom and Babylon, well, between this revelation and that revelation in 1831, and this one in August 17th, it's not necessarily a revelation, but August 17th, 1835, this section of the doctrine of covenants, a lot has happened.

And early Saints may have believed that, you know, all would be well, we'd get to Zion, we'd build it up, missionaries all over the place. The United States hasn't even entered into any of the sections of the doctrine of covenants. There's basically two nations, Zion and Babylon. And then it doesn't work out for us, right? And Zion, it's because of Zion. Okay, so let me explain what I mean by that. One in heart, one in mind, one dwelt in righteousness, no poor among them. Well, building that on the frontier of a slave state with the Indian nations across the river doesn't work out. So you've got people mostly from New England and the Mid-Atlantic states who believe in

family, first of all, who believe in communal religion. That's not the case with the most of the people that are there. They're there, a lot of them, from the upper south to either get away from the law or get away from their families, right? And find an opportunity because the frontier is somewhere you can hide. Now, that's not everybody, but that's, I mean, this is the kind of the Wild West

kind of idea of getting away from society. Then economically, right? We're living the law of consecration. We're trying to build up Zion through a communal economic efforts, and we're starting to buy up a lot of land. And that's in conflict with people that are there to make money off of the trade routes that come from Santa Fe, or from gambling, or getting government commissions and so forth and so on.

Then you've got this idea that we believe we're Zion, right? And we have this religion that talks about angels and visions and gold plates and some of us are unwise to talk about, you know, your Babylon, you're gonna get wiped out. This is our land. And it's now working out really well, right? I don't think, I don't think that's in how to win friends and influence people. Right. Right. I don't win friends and influence settlers. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, in the end, it all comes to a head because of an article in our newspaper there in Independence called Free People of Color. And its idea was to say, look, we're gathering design, I'm just breaking it down in Nutsha. The idea is to come design. If you're a person of color who is free, remember this is a slave state, right? And so you need to exercise judgment about that. Well, the locals take that as, all right. Well, they believe in... Is that Phelps? Who wrote that? Yeah, WW Phelps. WW Phelps, okay.

Yeah. And so the locals are like, yep, see? Again, in 1831, back to that first revelation, just a few months prior was the Nat Turner Rebellion, where a slave preacher named Nat Turner led an armed rebellion and they killed 50 whites. And in retaliation, mobs, militia mobs murdered hundreds of enslaved people. And all throughout the South, which is now the South that they're dealing with here in 1835, right? All throughout the South, legislatures changed rules and severely restricted slaves, liberties, even more.

And everybody was on edge that wins the next Nat Turner revolt, right? And so for the locals there, they could interpret that. They decided to interpret that as, they're gonna bring, this is gonna be another Nat Turner out here, right? On the frontier where it's easy to get guns and it's easy to have hide in places because it's less populated or whatever.

And so they take the lawn into their own hands, right? And burn down the printing house and destroy it and say we have to get out. And we eventually have to because they take our guns and march us out. And then of Zion's camp, right? The whole idea is to come back. Well, the revelations in Zion's camp bring the United States into the narrative for the first time. I have, I inspired the men who, who brought about the Constitution and for this reason that everybody could have rights so they could express their

moral agency and you should look for good people to rule in those offices and so forth. Governor Dunclin, who had at first, who's the governor, the Democratic governor of Missouri at the time, who had first offered to help the saints get reinstated but then back down when it looked like it was going to be civil war, had written some follow-up letters to the leaders of the church in Kirtland saying, you know, what happened was repugnant. I'm going to look at trying to change the laws of the state so that we can redress this problem. And that kind of gave the Saints hope that maybe there's another opportunity, right? And so what they did was start a newspaper in Kirtland, separate from the other newspaper,

the church newspaper they had, called the Northern Times. Almost all the newspapers in those days were, guess what, partisan, right? So they were either democratic, they were either democratic newspapers or wig papers. And the saints fit more naturally into the democratic party of that time, that was more for individual rights and more for local control and other things.

Anyway, and Dunclin's Democrat, most of the people in Jackson County are Democrats. And so this paper has very democratic leanings to try and kind of mend fences, right? Including going after the hardcore abolitionists that existed at the time to say, this is, you know, this is terribly country apart, right? So they're trying to mend fences, they're trying to, you know, they know the only way back in is through the help of government. And so they're trying their best to be on the government's side, right? And a local, you may have talked about in

an earlier podcast, but a local newspaper called the Payne's Ville Telegraph. It's kind of like the Warsaw Signal before the Warsaw Signal, right? So kind of the enemy of the church in media in print says, oh, they've got a newspaper, right? So that must mean that they're a political newspaper. So that means they're going past their bounds.

And so maybe we need to stir up something here, you know, in Ohio. And so that's the kind of the environment, the back buildup to section 134, is this is the environment that's going on. That there's a committee that's like, we talked about before the committee that put it together, the book of commandments. This is the environment that's going on. There's a committee that's like we talked about before, the committee that put it together,

a book of commandments, this is the committee putting together the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, which is the follow-up. And Joseph Smith is actually off with another member of the first presidency, Frederick G. Williams in Michigan, when that's how much he trusts, right?

Oliver and Sidney and others, to finalize the process of the Doctrine and Covenants. And this conference, led by Sidney and Oliver, had two statements unanimously to the Doctrine and Covenants, and one of them is this statement on government. And Joseph does later endorse it. So even though he wasn't the writer of it, it wasn't a received revelation in that sense, he does endorse it the next year in 1836.

And up through 1842, he's using it as his own. He writes a letter in 1842 where he just replaces we with I, in a letter about what do you believe in government kind of a thing? And so in the section heading itself, it says that this is, that our belief, so this isn't, you know, it's this, it's framed differently than a first hand from the Lord kind of revelation, that our belief with regard to earthly governments and laws in general might not be misinterpreted, right, or misunderstood, think of the context we just shared, we have thought it proper to present at the close of this volume are opinion concerning the same.

And so that's where we get this. And it's kind of important that we understand all that, you know, that's going on in the background to understand what it is specifically they choose to talk about with government and what that means for the latter day saints going forward. I noticed it reads a little bit like, yeah, articles of faith. Correct. We believe.

Every verse begins with we believe, except for verse nine, we do not believe. Right. This is the thou shalt not or whatever we call it. Yeah. It's a dichotomy that we believe and that we don't. Right. This is the thou shalt not or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's a dichotomy that we believe in that we don't. Yes. One last point for context, these men and women of the church, vast majority of them are children or grandchildren of the revolution. Can you imagine? And so they take it very personally that those rights are being denied them, right?

It's very, you know, my grandpa died too, or my dad bled at Yorktown or whatever. They're the same, I am the inheritor of those same rights that you are, why are you not giving them to me? You know, so there's, there's, that you are, why are you not giving them to me? And you also have to, I guess another thing I should say too, that I just thought of, is that we're only two generations from the revolution, and there's still no guarantee that this is going to work out. It's not kind of the rock-republic democracy of the past two centuries, there is a real fear that something could bring this whole thing down, that a tyrant could get involved or whatever.

And for a lot of Americans at the time, they looked at non-protist and faith, so Catholics and Latter-day Saints basically, as being suspicious and could, you know, that their thoughts or ideas could bring down or their immigration actually to, could bring down the Republic and they talk in terms of that too. And it's not just saying something to whip up the mob. These were feelings that were expressed about the Catholics. They were widespread at that time. Almost the idea that freedom of religion is for Protestants, but not so much for Catholics and for these Latter-day Saint people. These Mormons, as they would have called them then. So that's also kind of important to have in the background that those are kind of the same people, right? These Mormons, as they would have called them then. And so that's also kind of important to have in the background

that those are kind of the discussions that are happening. Wow. All right, so, okay, and again, it comes out of order, 1835. Right, yeah, so this is way out of order. So I'm gonna break it down, instead of going verse by verse, I wanna do this one a little bit more thematically. What this section says about governments in general, what it says about the government's role to

the governed, and then what are those that are governed, what is their role to the government, then religion and state, and then the very last two verses, redress and slavery. So, governments in general, okay? So, in verse 1, it teaches, we believe that governments were institutive God for the benefit of men. So, government is good. It comes from God. It is necessary. In verse 6, it says, to regulate our interests as individuals and nations between man and man. Not everybody agrees on everything, we need a government, verse 2, that it requires laws. And then, verse 3, that there can be different kinds of government. So, in it, it says that these leaders should be sought by an upheld by the voice of the people, if a republic, or the will of the sovereign, or the will of the

king or whatever kind of other government there is. So it's not just talking about republics or or democracy, it's talking about government anywhere. A bad government is better than no government. Because if you look in verse six and the middle of verse six, it says, you know, governments are needed because without them, there's anarchy and terror, right? I mean, if everybody can be the government, then decide how things go, then things fall apart. So that's kind of like,

this is what government is, and this is why God has government on the earth. And then the next one, governments roll to the government, or what should the government be doing towards citizens, regardless of whether it's a republic or whether it's a sovereign king or something like that? Verse one, making laws and administering to them

for the good and safety of society. That's why a government exists, right? That we can prosper and get along and be protected. Then in verse two, these will start to sound familiar, right? The free exercise of conscience, right of property, protection of life, right? And so you think of the declaration of independence, right? We hold these truths to be self-evident, right? The fact self-evident is going to be used in Herodon in alieval rights in verse 5, right?

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do you know what do you know what the original draft that Jefferson wrote had for it? I do. I do. Go for it John. Go to life liberty and the pursuit of property. Correct. Correct. Yeah. But that got edited it out. But in this it gets edited back in. That's right. It's a real estate.

And in this it gets edited back in because it's free exercise of conscious, right and control of property. And control of property and the protection of life. So they actually write it back in when they write this. So. And I think that isn't it true that Jefferson got it from, was it George Mason who in the Virginia constitution, he had some of these ideas.

George Mason is the one that refused to sign the constitution because it didn't have a bill of rights. And he wanted some of these things in there. It's really interesting. I mean, this is written in a time when the saints are getting mobbed, right? Right. Yeah. And so it's like the Constitution, it wasn't work. And it was, I love somebody put it this way, help me if you know who it was, but it's an aspirational document. We're aspiring to these principles and ideals, you know? And it's kind of

like we all are. We have the scriptures. We aspire to live the way they're they're asking us to and sometimes we're not there, but that doesn't mean they're not true. And it doesn't mean the Constitution isn't valid. It's an aspirational document. We haven't always lived up to it, but that's what we're aspiring to. Absolutely. That's very well said. Absolutely, that's very well said. Let's see. Then in verse three, to administer the law equally and justly, this is again, still the government's role, in verse four, at the end of it, to restrain crime, but never control conscience,

punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul. And I mean, I think today we start, we're starting to see a little bit of that kind of what's called illiberal thought, liberalism not in the political sense of left and right, but in the sense of pluralism and freedom to think the way you want to think is long, and act the way you want to act as long as you don't take away Those same rights from other people. So it's very interesting that you know that same conversation we're having now is is right there in there And then verse five This is a great statement to to in towards the bottom That governments have the right to enact such laws as in their

own judgments are best calculated to serve the public interest at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscious. So there's a balance there, right, that governments have to learn the balance of individual rights and collective needs, right? And we've got to be able to figure out and governments have to do that, right? And then let's see, last one is in verse eight, it says that they are to punish crime,

that governments are to punish crime according to the criminality, right? So bad crime needs to be punished severely and others don't. So those are kind of, here is what we believe as a church from our inheritance of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the Republic that we stand that we're in, but we feel is important for all governments. That governments are good, they exist for a reason.

They come from God, the idea of them, and they are to protect people in their rights and they're supposed to balance society's needs and be equal before the law and justly regardless of who people are. Now, like you mentioned, John, 1835, slavery is legal. And so obviously that's not doing that. Or even following what the Lord says in section 101, when he's talking about the Constitution, that no one should be in bondage to one another. Sometimes like we take the Bible as being inherent and infallible, that every word is exactly there the way God wants it, and every truth is exactly there the way God wants it. Too many

times in our adoration of the Constitution, we've done the same thing and said every word that's in there is inspired and needs to be in there. Well, sorry, I don't think God inspired the three fifths compromise over what a slave means, right, or the slavery in the first place. But the protection of life, liberty, the freedom of conscious rule by the people, these are all things to need to get agency. Slavery is the exact opposite of that. And we haven't lived up to it. And we paid a huge price for it, right? I think too, I was looking at this earlier when I was preparing, but the George Mason made this really interesting comment about national sins, cannot be paid for in the next life. They must be paid for in this. And he was talking about slavery, and we are going to pay for this.

And, you know, perhaps that was his own way of prophesying the Civil War. Well, and the Civil War, 600,000 soldiers killed. And that doesn't even talk about civilians or those who died or the nationwide, actually the nationwide heroin problem and morphine problem after the war that most people don't talk about because of all the animals. Whoa, talk about it. Talk about it. What's that mean? So in the late 1800s, you could order morphine or heroin, even cocaine off of Sears' catalog. So during the war, that's kind of the first major war where these drugs are used to take away pain,

to do surgery. And of course, we know now, right, word of wisdom. We know now that these things are addictive. And that whole generation of wounded men, so many of them lived the rest of their lives as what we would call today addicted to drugs and the effects of the Civil War is what I'm trying to say, go on and on and on. And you talk about paying a price for a national sin,

you're talking 600 and 100,000, 99% of which are whites, not blacks, who die. and percentage of the population. Yeah, and there's never been anything like it in our history. And I don't think that's, it's been totally redeemed yet. I don't believe that either. My hope is that when we talk about the Constitution, we talk about what God actually said himself in 101 about what it's for, and not that the whole document is this revealed scripture from heaven. And certainly our behavior didn't match. Yeah, so when you say 101, let's point out to people that would be verses like 77 through 80 probably.

And again, the shortness of it is so that people can exercise their moral agency. That's what this place is about, mortality. So speaking of dichotomies of youths and cougars, I went to the University of Utah right after my mission. And I remembered in political science class hearing they called it the fist swinging right, which I see kind of articulated here a few times. You have the right to swing your fist as far and tell it reaches my nose. Correct. That idea. And so yeah, government can do this, but as soon as it starts to infringe on what

individuals can do, and that's articulated a lot in here, where that fist-swinging right stops. Correct. And that's, I mean, that's the delicate balance, right, trying to decide where that is. And, so let's switch to then what this is talking about as far as we as citizens, how we're supposed to act towards government. So in verse one, it right off the bat, he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them. That, I mean, that's pretty straightforward that we can't just be indifferent about government that will be held accountable for our interaction

or lack thereof with government. If you look at verse 5, he says, or excuse me, this document says, all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside. And if you go down a little bit, that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected. We're supposed to sustain and work within the government, right? Change policies by electing different people

or advocating, redressing, running for office yourself, which the first presidency has said several times leading up to elections, that we're not supposed to be disengaged from government that we're supposed to be part of it. And then in verse 6, we believe that every man should be honored in his station, rulers and magistrates being placed for the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty, and that to the laws all men should show respect and deference. So we should respect the laws of the land. If we want different laws, we should work to change them, and we should respect the people in their offices for the fact that we need offices of people that can do these things for us. And again, and that's all throughout history of the United States, but it's spiked recently

in our lifetimes. The disregard towards both people and law is not good. It doesn't lead to a good place. And the saints knew this firsthand. Yeah, it's the anarchy and terror thing if there's laws that aren't followed at all, and then it's why have them? Yeah, and we've seen so much of that lately. The last one is verse 8. At the bottom of verse 8, it says that we should use our ability to bring offenders against good laws

to punishment. So in other words, we shouldn't look the other way. that we should use our ability to bring offenders against good laws to punishment. So in other words, we shouldn't look the other way. We should be helping the government crack down on crime. I remember when I was a kid, you know, the whole neighborhood, the neighborhood watch thing, man, was taking really serious in that when my childhood, not my teenagers, but in my childhood neighborhood, man, I mean, people made assignments and you couldn't get away with anything. I mean, it was terrible for a kid, right? And you couldn't toy the paper without being kind of, I mean, there was no crime in that home that I lived in for six years.

There was no crime in that area at all. Yeah, and I noticed in verse eight, bringing offenders against good laws to punishment. So there is a moment there where it's like that word good is interesting, isn't it, where I get to decide as a citizen almost, that's not a good law. I'm not going to turn so and so in because that's not a good law. Reminds me of William Tyndale and those smuggling the English Bible. Right.

Into England and trying to catch him. And why aren't you helping us? Well, it's not a good law. Yeah, for us later on in our history, like we didn't turn each other in on the polygamy ax, right? We considered that to be an infringement of our rights and it was still going through the courts. And so we weren't just handing each other over

to the federal government. But general stuff that we can all agree on is being crime. We need to support. Yeah, we need to support and help government. Okay, and here's the big one, right? Religion and state. What does that mean, church and government?

Because that's the real reason they're writing this, right? It and state. What does that mean? Churching government. Because that's the real reason they're writing this, right? It's because people are misunderstanding them and they don't want to be misunderstood and it hasn't worked out for them. Their religious rights weren't protected. They're religious neighbors, you know, denied them their rights. So as we look at that, it's woven all throughout it from verse one to verse 10. In every single verse, there's something about it. Okay, so in verse one and in verse four, it says that both government and religion

are both instituted from God. So they have the same source of authority. That's really different from the modern secular idea of separation of church and state, which is much more of a split, right? The separation of church and state has been wonderful for us to get a restoration, to go around the world, right, and do it. But separation of church and state is only 300 years old. For a long time, it was restricted to Protestants in the United States. And we're going back to a monarchy, right? I mean, that's where we're headed eventually in the millennium. So the problem is, is kind of throw the baby out with the bath water, right? The idea that

what to try and separate the two, we've just totally, too much in Western society. We've totally thrown out God from it when both are supposed to originate from God. And so there's that balance there. In verse really well said. And what is the actual wording of the amendment? Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religious, that's the actual word. Rehabilitation. Rehabilitation. Rehabilitation.

And the free exercise thereof, or, you know, yeah, and the free exercise thereof. So not stopping us from exercising our rights to believe what we want to believe and those actions as that follow, but also not enforcing on us a state religion, which is the case everywhere else in the world. And actually, anywhere else in time, I mean, there's no difference between the Roman emperor as God on earth or the Samaritan ruler or the Egyptian ruler or Queen Elizabeth is the head of the Anglican Church and state. The Church and state, and even here in the United States, most of the colonies had an official state religion, right?

It's the changes. So it's a very new idea that there's this separation. And of course, God's hands in it so that we can have what we have and have the ability to go throughout the world and people can believe what they want and all that stuff. But it's not the natural order of things, I guess, as we say. And sometimes when we live in a moment, we look at the rest of time and say, they got it wrong.

And I'm not saying they didn't get it wrong. But the idea that separation of church and state forever, and especially the way it's been, it's developed to where there's the state, and then God is your thing you do in private. You don't bring that into the public sphere, don't act in the public sphere, don't try and influence the public sphere. That's not what's intent. Yeah. Getting to where your opinion isn't valid because you're coming from a religious mindset. Yeah. The best form of government would be a righteous king, wouldn't it? And we see that with King, King Benjamin, King Mosiah, it didn't always work out very well. In fact, the book Mormon message, King's lead surely this leads to captivity, you know,

said brother Jared and he said, don't call me Shirley. I always love to be in that joke in class. But and so they set up the reign of the judges where, hey, these are these laws that God gave us and let's appoint judges to judge us according to the laws that God gave. But yeah, when Jesus comes, that will be a righteous king. And yeah, like you said, bring it on. Let's look at verse four. Oh, excuse me, three. So your rights, your religious rights can infringe on the rights of someone else, right?

Verse four, the government should not dictate what we worship, we do not believe that human law has the right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciousness of men or dictate forms of public or private devotion. So both of those phrases from the first amendment, free exercise of religion, but also not establishment, they call it the establishment clause, free exercise of religion, but also not establishment, they call it the establishment clause, right? The establishment of a national church or a state church. And then verse five, that public interest versus freedom of conscience, and that freedom

of conscience is usually the term used for the idea of freedom of religion. Verse 6, man is accountable to government for the rules between men and to heaven, for the rules between men and heaven, right? And verse 7 is where it gets to be really specific. We believe that ruler states and governments have a right and are bound to enact laws, again, think of their experience, for the protection of all citizens and the free exercise of their religious belief. And we do not believe that they have a right to deprive citizens of this privilege or prescribe them or tell them what their what their opinion should be. And then verse 8 is not, but then verse 9. Now this, we have to read this very carefully or we misunderstand it.

We do not believe it is just to mingle religious influence with silver government. So if you stop there, then that makes it sound like the modern secular argument that there shouldn't be any influence, right? But that's not what the verse says. And I've seen some people come to this verse and use that, right, to say, well, the church shouldn't talk about medical marijuana or whatever, right?

They shouldn't have any influence at all. They shouldn't, right. The next word is, whereby. You're allowed to talk. Right, yeah, whereby one religious society is fostered and another prescribed in its spiritual privileges and the individual rights of its members as citizens denied. So it's not that there shouldn't, we shouldn't bring our religious experience into government. That's not the case at all.

It's that they shouldn't be mingled where, let's say for example example we elect a president who then says or a governor one is favored over another yeah where they say okay we're gonna treat this people different from this people which is not supposed to happen which is exactly the experience that the latter-day Saints have had and are going to have and then in verse 10 that the religious rules are for religious societies religions shouldn't make rules for the rest of the people, the rest of the nation, right? There is that separation in that way. So verse 11 says, and now you can see the, you can start to see the clenched fists, right, of what we've experienced. And you can see all

over digging his pen into the paper. We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, which they have done and been denied at every level of the Missouri government and letters to both the so we also sent a letter to Andrew Jackson who he had his Secretary of War respond to us saying this is outside of the national government and again it's at this time the Bill of Rights were actually only federal rights. They didn't pertain inside the states. And that's why federal governments didn't get involved because the state's rights issue was very, very strong. The government can only get involved if they're sedition or rebellion. And they didn't see this as being

sedition of rebellion, right? Even though the ideas, yeah, the ideas have your Missouri leaders work it out. And they're saying, that's what we're trying to do. They're the, you know, in the first case, some of them were in the mob, and right. And then in 1838, later on, the definition of mob and militia are the same thing. Yeah. So where personal abuse is inflicted

or the right of property or character in fringe where such laws exist as we'll protect the same. So that, we believe that, but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends and property, and the government, from unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of Ex-en-tiancy. Ex-tiancy, I don't know how to say that word, exit. When you got no other choice, right? People are dropping down on your home. You don't have a choice to go appeal to the judge.

We're immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws and relief afforded. And so that again comes out of the revelations from the sections of Zion's camp, where if they keep coming upon you, then you have the right to, you know, return fire, if you will, to protect your homes, to protect your people, which is what's going to happen. John, it sounds like Cap Moroni wrote that almost. Yeah, we're getting some. This is what I love about this is that, you know, King Mosaic, when all of his sons won on missions

and he had no one to give the kingdom to, he's like, you know, let's start a new system. And it's fun to read these ideas and principles and kind of equate them with what we're seeing here. I can see Cap Moroni being excited. You are justified in defending yourself and your friends and your property, and your government from unlawful assaults.

Let me write that on my coat for you. Yeah. So much of the restoration flows from the Book of Mormon. How do you know how to build up a church? What is the doctrine? And so those words would be natural for Oliver, who's read and written more of the Book of Mormon than anybody else, right?

And so it's in him. So yeah, I mean, Captain Morone, I there. I was gonna bring up John with the experience of going to the reign of a judge's. It doesn't work. Within a few years, you have a Malachi. I mean, you have the Kingman, and you have a civil war. And so even when it seems like it's a better system,

it doesn't always work out. Yeah, the idea is supposed to work, but that's what I tell my classes. Who's this Malachi character, and how come? As soon as they they enact the reign of the judges, there's all these people who want to go back to having a king. And that's seen every since they set it up, there's people who want to keep going back. And that's a good point. Again, a lot of ideals here that we fall short of.

Yeah. And then verse 12, this is kind of one that kind of sticks out as being different. And again, we have to remember the context, everything that we talked about leading up to this. In it, it says, we believe that we're supposed to preach, and that's a good thing to preach to the nations. But we do not believe it is right to interfere with bond servants, so slaves, neither preach the gospel to nor baptize them, baptize them, contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to metal with, or influence them, in the least, to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life,

thereby jeopardizing the lives of men. Again, think of Nat Turner's revolt, think of, they're trying to get back into Missouri, all that. Such interference, we believe, to be unlawful and unjust and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in servitude. Now the reason, you know, that sounds on the top like it's not an endorsement of slavery, but someone

could read it that way. It's not. It's saying that, notice at the end, every government that allows slavery, we work within the government because even just, we didn't even say anything wrong. We just said to free blacks. You might want to think about coming here. You know, this is a slave state and everything blew up, right? And then there's this great national fear of the South now going on of, you know, when is the next net turner? But the interesting thing is is that Joseph Smith's presidential campaign is actually the, it's just the opposite. He goes for abolition. And he sends missionaries to the south with that message, which is, I found to be pretty interesting when it came to what I learned about what happened there. So that's where they're at in 1835.

That's what they put in to try and men fences in Missouri and let the people in Ohio know we're not trying to take over Ohio. We're not mingling to make it just be, you know, Mormonville or whatever. But that's kind of not where it ends. Our next section of the Doctrine and Covenants is nine years later, kind of picks up

from the 1843 that you talked about earlier. But a lot happens in between there and 1844 when Joseph had killed, including why Joseph is killed, right? What's leading up to that? Please join us for part three of Follow Him. you