Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 135-136 Part 3 : Dr. Richard E. Bennett

Episode Date: November 21, 2021

Doctrine & Covenants 136:President Richard Bennett joins us from Nebraska for a bonus episode to discuss Doctrine and Covenants Section 136, the only canonized revelation of Brigham Young.  As the Saints are expelled from Nauvoo,  they endure tragedy and experience triumph at Winter Quarters, Nebraska.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodes/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Sponsor/MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Assistant Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts : French TranscriptsIgor Willians : Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part three of Dr. Nacominance 135 and 136. Hello everyone, welcome to a special episode of Follow Him. John, this is the first time that we've ever had a two-part episode with two different guests. So this is a new episode sort of it's a second episode. So I might as well just take this opportunity to remind everybody that we're on social media on Instagram and Facebook and you can watch the podcast on YouTube. We'd love for you to rate and review and subscribe to the podcast. So I'll

throw all that in since since we have a new guest here. But John, who's gonna be with us for part two of this lesson? Well, Hank, I've been looking forward to this for a long time because we have Dr. Richard E. Bennett with us. And he was one of my favorite professors at BYU. And he is all dressed up today. I am more than we are. I feel like I should have a tie on. at BYU and he is all dressed up today. More than we are, I feel like I should have a tie on.

And Dr. Bennett, I'm going to read his bio from the definitive work on the Exodus West called Will Find the Place. And I want to read the bio out of the back. And then we're going to catch up a little bit. As we have been before we started recording Richard e-bennett served for nearly 20 years as head of the Department of Archives and special collections at the University of Manitoba and He's the best guy we've ever had out of the University of Manitoba, Hank

It was it was recently appointed this as recently, but this is Fierzel, to the Faculty of Religious Education at BYU, Dr. Bennett holds a PhD from Wayne State University in American History. He's the author of a score of articles on LDS Pioneer History, which have appeared in magazine and journals, such as the Unsigned Journal of Mormon History, the Midwest Review, Illinois Historical Journal, and BYU studies. He's the author of Mormons at the Missouri 1846 through 1852, and another book, Anshed We Die, published by the University of Oklahoma Press in 1987. He served as a state president, state mission president, regional director of public affairs. He and his wife Patricia Dyer Bennett, the parents of five children, but there's more we have to catch up. Dr.

Bennett, can you lift up your suit, LePel, a little bit there and show us what you've got there on your pocket? Whoa! That badge looks familiar. Can you explain how you got that honor? Yes, thank you, John. I can't get to the pleasure to be with you. We've been my wife and I have been site directors and mission president here at the Mormon Trail Center in North Omaha, formerly Winter Quarters. And we've been here for nine months. It's a two-year mission call. We have 16 senior missionaries serving here at the trail centers because we also have the Canesville Log Tabernacle Center all across the river in Council Blosset, Iowa. In the summertime we have up to eight junior system missionaries who are with us.

system missionaries who are with us. So it's a going concern. We've had 16,000 visitors this year since COVID has lessened up a little bit and so it's a busy but a wonderful fulfilling mission call. It's so awesome that we get to have you in a place that fits with what we're talking about a little bit today. When I thought of section 136, the top of the list, the very top of the list is Richard Bennett. He is superstar in our eyes is Richard Bennett. Yeah, and on this topic, oh boy, absolutely. I feel blessed about, I always worry about former students of mine getting back at me. And so this is your turn, guys.

We'll just say it one more time. That book, We'll Find the Place, W E Postery L L, We'll Find the Place. It, that was a life changer for me. I loved that book. It's one I give as a gift to anyone who likes history books. It is just a, it is so well done. Now, Dr. Bennett, you wrote something

that kind of continues the story from these other books. Recently with Deseret Book, is it Temples Rising? Can you tell us about that? Yes. It's a result of my research over the years on the pioneer Exodus and especially coming from Novo, but it all goes all the way back to, frankly, to the first vision in Kirtland, and we bring it up to Novo. And then what really intrigued me was the fact that there were some wonderful spiritual things and temple related ordinances right here at winter quarters that were not well known.

Maybe we'll talk about that. And then along the trail and then to Salt Lake and through the eventuation of Endowments for the Dead for the first time in the St. George Temple in 1877. So it's a study of the rise of temple consciousness amongst the saints. And why it became such great significance because it's a process, it's a development, it's a marvelous doctrinal flowering in the history of the church. And so that really caught my eyes. I was going through all of this to see what it was that gave the saints such faith, such devotion and dedication. And yeah, it's kind of a fulfillment of some of my earlier research.

I feel like Hank and maybe you felt the same. One of the great just I don't know impressions I've had as we've done all of these these podcasts is how anxious the Lord was to have them build and the temples and then it's an anxious to reveal and bless them with everything that comes with temples. That's been a big part of what I've felt this whole year. The Lord really wanted the saints to have temples. Boy, then you go to general conference and you're very eager to be there. Well, we've gushed quite a bit.

So let's get into the second half of this week's lesson. We've already covered section 135. So now let's look at section 136. Dr. Bennett, the jump from section 135, which is June of 1844 to 136, which is January of 1847, that's quite a leap. So we're going to kind of hand it over to you and say, where do we start in order to come into this section with the right vision, with the right, with the right perspective? Well, thank you, Hank. I believe that section 136 has to be one of the most important revelations in the history of the church. It's the only canonized revelation of Brigham Young. It sort of sits at the back of the Dockland

Covenants almost unknown amongst many of the saints. And the question is, where did this come from? It's almost like an adendum because everything up until 1835 is pretty well Joseph Smith's Senate or oriented and here comes Brigham Young in a place that we'd never been before. And so we have to lay a little bit of the groundwork to understand the setting so that we can plumb the lasting importance and significance of this particular section of the dark and the covenants. In so many ways, section 136 is about the lessons learned from their crossing of Iowa. Now after the Prophet Joseph Smith was slain and martyred in 1844, I guess you've covered all that in section 135, but the church goes through an extremely difficult time, eventuating in the expulsion of the Latter-day Saints, that cruel expulsion of the saints from

Navu, beginning on the 4th of February 1846. It wasn't an extermination order, like you saw in Missouri with little burdened W. Boggs, but it was it was tantamount to the same thing. The expulsion from Navu with the revocation or renunciation of the Navu Charter meant that there simply was no future for the Church of Jesus Christ to the Latter-East Saints in the United States of America at that time. And so the Saints are faced with the prospect of having to leave and to leave behind everything that they had established, even the temple which they had built from 1841 to 1846. The irony is they don't, it's not even dedicated by the time they're leaving. And so they're leaving everything behind in a tremendous, risky enterprise of crossing

the Great American Desert. That's what they called it, the Great American Desert. We don't have Wyoming and Nebraska in all these other places. It's not, it's not part of the United States We're going into quote-quote Indian territory. We don't know what's going to happen there and so that Exodus That's what it is. Exodus means an expulsion of an entire people men women and children families and everything For the salvation of the church. That's the term that Brigham Young used over and over again for the salvation of the church. We have no other option, no other choice, but quote, to go to the West. That's the words that

Brigham Young used. That's just that's the very word you see in the very first verse of section 136, journeysnings to the West. Where in the West? They didn't even know that. There's a clear indication that they thought that they would go someday. Joseph Smith had indicated that probably go to the Rocky Mountain sometime, but where? That's not identified. And so it going back again,

the travels across Iowa were so taxing. The rains began to fall almost as soon as they crossed that Mississippi River. Certainly by about the middle of March, when they began to leave Sugar Creek and Montrose on the Iowa side of the Mississippi, it began to rain and rain and rain incessantly to the point that as they're crossing Iowa, they're sinking to the axles of their wagons. And we're right here in Iowa today. I'm speaking right from Nebraska and Iowa, and it's been raining here for the last several

days. And I can just see the saints sinking into the mud. And they can't get away from it. They can't get away from it. Brigham Young says, I can get away from my enemies, but I can't get away from the weather. And I can't get away from my own people who aren't provisioned, who aren't prepared. And so, I mean, they're having a terrible time. And then later on, of course, as you well know, because they don't come out all at the same time, they're gonna come out in waves, that the poor camps leaving Na'avu, being forced out by Canon and by Banet by the mobs

in September of 1846, 900 of them. I mean, they had to be rescued, bringing young was sending back what many could spare to go back and bring out the poor camps. And they're getting stuck. To lay the foundation, they do eventually get to the Missouri River Valley, but by the time they got to the Missouri River Valley, having crossed Iowa, taking much longer time than they'd ever anticipated, it's too late to go to the Rocky Mountains. Every Trapper and traitor told the Saints and they had been preparing for this for a long time. That unless you're away from the Missouri River, away to the west from

the Missouri River by the 1st of June, you're tempting fate in the Rocky Mountains. And the Donner Reed Party learned that the terribly hard way in 1846 when they got caught in the high sear isn't froze to death and cannibalized themselves in that terrible winner of 46. froze to death and cannibalized themselves in that terrible winner of 46. The Saints knew they had to be away by the first of June. Remember that date because they didn't get there because of the mud of Iowa, the very first wagons didn't get here to Missouri River until mid-June, and they've got 1800 wagons. 1800 wagons falling behind, most of which had been built by the church with consecrated tithing funds for the members themselves.

And so now how are you going to get across that river with that large amassah people who are exhausted from crossing Iowa? So they're not going to be able to go to the west. from trying, crossing Iowa, so they're not going to be able to go to the West. They can't go back east because they've been expelled. It pushed out, and so they're stranded here in the Missouri River Valley, and the question is now what are we going to do? And that's the beginning of Winter Quarters, of course, because they're going to have to put in a Winter Quarters.

You're going to have to establish a winter quarter someplace thanks to the call of the Mormon battalion, which was its own drain upon the resources of the church and the little question about that. But we got permission from the United States Army to settle over here on this side of the river where I am today in winter quarters, which is now Florence Nebraska, which is now a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska. But here in Indian land, as that were in 1846, we have to put in our city before the winter comes. And here they've been exhausted crossing Iowa. And now they have to put up a city of five to 600 cabins before the winter comes.

Are they going to freeze to death? Rome wasn't built in the day, but winter quarter is almost was. The energy of the saints under the direction of President Brigham Young, who wasn't the president of the church, but he was the president of the camp of Israel. They always called him president of the camp of Israel because of his position as president of the quorum of the 12. They got so busy building this place, it's a miracle that they survived the winter, to be honest with you. It is an absolute miracle to be able to build that city so fast.

Law cabins, five, six hundred of them, just on this side of the river, let alone the hundreds of others on the other side of the river. But as it was, they begin to die in record numbers for three reasons. Number one, they're exhausted. I mean, just pushing one wagon one mile in mud, but pushing 1800 wagons in mud up to your axles, men, women, and children. So they're exhausted. Number two, the exposure to the elements, the winters coming. I might just say as an aside here in the Anomahal last year, it was 23 below zero. Fair night. This just this this year, January. The winter of 46 and 47 was a very, it was mild up until about December 1st and then the winter came first and then the winter came and they're exposed that many of them are living in dugouts and on tents and in wagons and in the hobbles, frankly in caves because they couldn't build them fast

enough. So the exposure to the elements was a second factor for the rapidly rising numbers of deaths here at winter quarters and then third because of the deficiency of vitamins, fruits and vegetables, they're dying of scurvy, and it's the children who are going to suffer the most. And right across the street from where I am right now, here at the Mormon Trail Center, right across the street is the I am right now, here at the Mormon Trail Center, right across the street is the Mormon Pioneer Cemetery, and we have four to 500 buried there, most of which are an unmarked graze,

but we know where they are because of the sexton records. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, is that just the tip of the iceberg because over across on the other side of the river, in Council Bloss, they're also dying in huge numbers. I would venture to say that at the time the saints lead the Missouri River Valley, most of them later in the 1850s, there were about 1,516,000 Latter-day Saints buried in this region, nothing like it in the history of the church. It was a precipice in our history.

It was a moment of tremendous despair and discouragement and almost hopelessness amongst the Saints. Unless you understand that and understand all this, this section doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's something that kind of read over. But this sentence is written with the suffering of the saints between the lines, the agony and the triumph, because there's both a tragedy and triumph here at Winter Quarters. And we've talked about the tragedy, but the critical point is the triumph.

And it's going to start here with this revelation in January of 1847. Remember, too, that that Mormon battalion had taken away 500 of their most able-bodied men in a cause for the United States government, which not everyone supported at that time because we've been pushed out of the United States. I mean, where your causes just, if there's nothing I can do for you, are you kidding? We're getting six cents on the dollar and our houses in Nauvoo and there's nothing you can do for us. And now you want to come and ask it for us to serve you in the army. Well, it takes them cajoling to get

the saints to understand that this would be a blessing for both the government and for us. But here we are with fewer men. And we've got to, we've got to survive the saints to understand that this would be a blessing for both the government and for us. But here we are with fewer men and we've got to we've got to survive the winter. And this is important that you see section 136 is a winter time, desperate moment in history that church, a winter time revelation of hope and of light and of faith of light and of faith and of redemption. I can't say enough about the significance of this revelation. It's also a moment in the time of the church when others were saying that Brigham Young was leading us in the wrong direction.

Does he even know where he's going? He hasn't even said where we're going. Men like George Miller, associate presiding Bishop, a wonderful scout for the church, but he was breaking with Brigham Young's leadership here. There was James Emmett who followed George Miller in what they felt was their calling as members of the Council of 50, which they regarded as having equal authority, some of them, in secular matters at least, to be able to say where the church should be going.

And so there was division of vision and of where is our destination? And there was argument. And it's this critical, critical moment of who's in charge? Where are we going? What does this all mean? How come Joseph Smith was allowed to be killed in the first place? Why have we suffered so much crossing Iowa? Whose side has got on anyway? And the saints were looking for divine guidance. I can't even begin to tell you everything that's happening that lays the groundwork for this momentous

divine guidance for the church. Dr. Bennett, you mentioned 1800 wagons. Can you give us an idea of the number of the saints at this point? How many are actually trying to move with those 1800 wagons and everything? They were approximately 12,000 Vattery Saints in Navu give or take. The numbers haven't ever been established firmly, but I'm going to take that figure as reasonable. And frankly, Navu is a ghost town by December of 46. Everyone had left. Now, they didn't all leave, following, bringing me young, some went north to join with Jimmy Strang up in his colonies up there in Wisconsin.

Some went south to Lyman White, some went south to St. Louis. But we can account for about 12,000 Latter-day Saints somewhere. Anyway, 4,000 at Winter Quarters, 4,400 in Winter Quarters, approximately 4,000 across the river in what they called Henry's Miller's Hollow, which is now Council Blosses, Iowa. Miller's Hollow, which is now Council Bloss, Iowa. And then two or three thousand up and down the Missouri River Valley and 81 little different growth settlements, wherever there were trees and timber and water to provide them for.

And then they're scattered all across Iowa back to Mount Pizga, which is about 100 miles east of here in Iowa. And Garden Grove, and Richardson's point. And there's like salt and pepper all over west in Iowa. So most of the states are in the process of moving west, that left from Navu, but not of course not all of them are going to go all the way to the to the Rocky Mountains, but they're in the process of moving out or being forced out. Well, you mentioned so four to five hundred in the cemetery that's near you. Did you say another 12 hundred? I'm just thinking when you talk about 12,000 saints and then the numbers in these cemeteries. I mean, that is like, what are we around 10% of the church? That makes it really staggering to think of,

imagine losing that huge of a part of the church to death that way. Those who are buried here in the winter quarter cemetery right across the street from where I am now, most of those are died in the winter of 46 and 47. That's where the toll count really begins to spike because of the reasons I've mentioned earlier. Across the river, some of those settlements

are gonna be there for five or six years because it's gonna take a while for the saints in installments to head west. And so some, they're longer over in the Iowa side and consequently that's whether they're going to be more graves over there. But most of those are unmarked graves just as they are here at winter quarters. They didn't have time to put in stones and what have you. They didn't even have time for coffins. Most of them are buried in shallow graves, unmarked graves. This is the place where the price for the restoration

begins to be paid in enormous numbers. Faith has a price, and the restoration has a price. And this is where the price is going to be paid in huge numbers. That's why this is such a sacred area for the church, all of which lays the groundwork for this revelation. When I was with you on a church history tour, I remember you saying how crucial it is that we remember they didn't know the future. They don't know they're going to get to Utah and build up the church and it's going to be strong and become a wonderful thing. They're just trying to survive. And they could be going out here and all die.

And so the stress on Brigham Young and other leadership has to be overwhelming. The emotional toll that has to take. Not knowing for sure if this is gonna actually work, we could be leading everyone to their deaths. I remember you saying, if you take away the reality of that, you don't understand it. If you think they're just gonna go out there,

and well, of course we gotta make it, because then we gotta build the conference center, and we gotta have Temple Square and all the Christmas lights. They don't know that. They don't see themselves as in the past. They're living life and trying to figure it out day by day. I remember you're really hitting that home to us. You have to put yourself in their shoes, not knowing the future.

That's thanks Hank for reminding me of this and it's not coincidental that in the middle of this debacle or show we call this difficult time-grossing Iowa at rich at Locust Creek which is near Cored in Iowa today that William Clayton will compose perhaps the anthem of the Exodus. It becomes the anthem of the Exodus at least and they loved it when they heard it. It was an old English tune, but you know, come, come, come, you saints, all as well. That's what they called it. And as you said, Hank, that last verse, and should we die, they knew they were going to start dying. He knew that they were going to start dying, even though he wrote this, him because they heard the

worth of his son back in the novel, but he knew that they were going to start dying. And they all did. And should we die before our journey through happy day all as well. You've got to get yourself in those wagons. You got to get yourself in that mud. You got to get yourself in that sickness and in those hobvels and those caves and we're here in winter quarters to understand the power of what he was trying to say. They're going to pay a price, a terrible price. So yeah, and they didn't know. And that brings up one point that I would like to bring up Hank if I could about the opposition to Brigham Young. Some of them thought like Brother Miller that Brigham Young's idea of

going west to perhaps the Great Basin or the Bear River Country was in the wrong direction. He said, we should be going up the Naya Brera River. We should be going up to the Vermillion to what's called the wrong direction. He said, we should be going up to Nia Brera River. We should be going up to Vermillion to what's called the Yellowstone and towards Oregon. And he took many with him on a sort of a preliminary exodus first to Grand Island and then later up into the Pongka country on the Nia Brera. and when he heard this revelation, he and several others broke with the church, because they thought that Brigham Young was going in the wrong direction, and Brigham Young knew that there was going to be this division. Nevertheless, he said, we go in faith.

It's not just the weather, it's the temperament and the feelings of the people. Right there in their own camps, some of whom were disagreeing. And then you've got all this James Strang and Sydney Rigden and others, Alphius Cutler and eventually the Smith family are going to argue, hey, it should be going with us. We should be the leaders of the church. And so again, I go back to this point of a critical junction in the history of the church. Who's in charge? Who has division? Does anybody know where we're going?

We're starting, we're dying in record numbers. Give us some counsel. Give us some hope. And that's why this revelation is a revelation of hope. So that's the setting, I guess, that we can put together so that we can now then begin to look at the contents to see what it's really trying to address. Yeah, I think that's absolutely critical, is this idea of why this even came in the first place, because if you didn't know all this, if you didn't know this background,

you would, you'd say, oh, okay. I know they knew they were gonna head west and end up in Utah, so, but if you don't understand the, the different dynamics involved, you won't see the beauty of it. I like you said, the, the suffering of the saints is written. What did you said the the suffering of the saints is is written

What did you say in the between the lines? Yeah of this revelation When I first read this section You know, I kind of turned it off after the first six or seven verses It's what's this about captains of companies and presidents of tens and fifties and I mean, what is this? It's it's so mundane. It's so technical. It's what is the Lord? Why is the Lord concerned about this sort of stuff? I think we got to start at the beginning here. The word and will. The word and will of the Lord. You can say, and I can understand what people say, well, this is Brigham Young's revelation.

It's all coming out of Brigham Young's mind and heart. Well, it is, but I truly believe, I've studied this enough to see and in consequence of what eventually did happen, that this is from the Lord, that is a message through the mind of Brigham Young, if you will, and through his capacity to write it. But it really is an inspired revelation.

And I can tell you right now that when it was given to the saints, they rejoiced to hear finally, again, the word in will of the Lord. And we'll see that as we go through. In their journeys to the west, and they've all been going through all this, in their journeys to the west, and all the trials that you've been having here, going through Iowa, and what have you. Then it talks about the companies being organized with captains of hundreds and tens, and what have you. Now, notice in verse four, with captains of hundreds and tens, what have you. Now notice in verse four, and this shall be our covenant that we will walk in all the ordinances of the Lord. Did you know that there have been two more earlier covenants and that this was really built upon the Missouri covenant and the Navu covenant?

Both of which Brigham Young had established with the Saints when the saints were being driven out of far west Missouri in the winter of 39, again, it's a winter. Brigham Young learned how to lead people in the winter, clear back then in Missouri. But remember, when Joseph Smith is incarcerated in Liberty Jail, who's leading the church? It's the 12th. And he establishes what they were called the Missouri Covenant back in far west that, hey, we're going to bring everybody out of Missouri and take the Quincy. Well, they didn't know they're going to Quincy at that time, but to refuge. Which eventually why is it in Quincy. And then in September of 45 in Na'avu, there's something called the Na'avu covenant. When President

Brigham Young, in his capacity as President of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, has the Saints, and I'm not talking about it, outdoor meetings, four or five thousand of them, covenant that they're going to bring out of Navu, all the men, women, widows, orphans, children, we must come together. It's not an eye individual effort. The Mormon Exodus is a we effort. It's a collective effort. We will find the place. It's always we. It's never I. That's fundamentally different than say the California Gold Rush, where everybody is in it for themselves and to get rich or would have you. The whole Mormon Exodus, Latter-day St. Exodus, is going to be a wee-based collective consecrated movement. And it's this covenant that Brigham Young first learned in Missouri, then applies the Navu and now we're coming back to it. And you can almost say that section 136 is

the winter quarters covenant. And verse four, and this shall be our covenant that we will walk in all the ordinances of the Lord. And they're going to bring out everybody. That's what we're talking about here, these next few verses. Let each company bear an equal, verse eight, bear an equal proportion, according to the vision of their property and taking the poor, the widows, the fatherless, and the families of those who have been called into the Mormon battalion. It's lessons learned. What do we learn from leaving Nobu? What do we learn from the Iowa experience? We were Helter Skelter all over the place. Too many people came out unprepared. You can really say that section 136 is lessons learned from leaving Nobu and crossing Iowa. So it isn't just the fact that we're going to have tens and 50s and 20 and

by the way, those company captains aren't just to once they get rolling, but also right there in winter quarters, get them all prepared now. Everybody be ready. Be much more prepared than you were in Novo and make sure that we delegate responsibility to all the different company captains and what have you because we've got to move everybody out of here. We don't want to stay here. Now this is kind of an irony. Winter quarters is a powerful message in the history of the church, but the effort was to move the church west. Not stay here. Notice in verse 10, that every man used all his influence and property to remove this people to the place where the Lord shall locate a stake of Zion. The significance of that is that there was no stake created here at winter quarters. There was no stake in council bless. We had a high council here at Winter Quarters. There was no stake in Council Bluffs. We had a high council here at Winter Quarters, municipal high council. We had a pot of autumn high council over there

in Council Bluffs. The church was being organized with bishops. They had bishops over each ward. You know, they divided winter quarters into 22 blocks with a bishop over each block to take care of all these widows and orphans and families and Mormon battalion families. So we had bishops for the first time in the history of the church taking care of relatively small numbers of people, two to three hundred people. That's a breakthrough in church government to have bishops called for that smaller number of people, but no stake. And the fact is that Brigham Young didn't want to signal to stay here. Don't establish a stake here.

Stake is a place of refuge from the storm. We want them to come west. And so you see here, this emphasis on surviving while we're here, but moving out as quickly as we can in a much more organized way than we ever did leaving novel because we are forced out of novel. We're not going to be forced out of when a quarter is we can do it more carefully and deliberately. It seems that these covenants, Dr. Bennett, Richard, are, we do not leave anyone behind. I like that.

That's very good, Hank. It's a collective, we enterprise. And that's frankly, honestly, that's why Brigham Young was so esteemed by his people. He kind of like Brigham Young from a distance, you know that? He was a, he had a personality which graded some people the wrong way, but he was a distance. He had a personality which created some people the wrong way, but he was a lion. He had to nickname the lion of the Lord, and one of the reasons for that is that he was a lion in defense of the widow and the orphan and the children. Don't forget them. Don't forget the sick or the dying and the poor. We come all together or we don't come at all.

And all in favor of that, he had them all line up. I don't know from the Nauvoo temple and that Nauvoo covenant to do that. And now the same thing is happening here, just a couple of blocks from where I'm sitting right now. That revelation was proposed just down the hill from where I am here at the Mormon Trail Center, right down in what is today Florence. So it's a, this revelation has a place and it's right here. I remember standing in that grave, that cemetery with Alex Baugh, who I think is, you know, a friend of all of ours. And he had tears in his eyes and he said to me, he said, you know, Hank, I, I try to be faithful, but I am no stillman pond. And here is a man who

comes to winter quarters and berries. I don't know how many family members he died. His wife died and four or five of his children died. Their names are inscripted right in the center top across here. It's amazing. Man, like stillman pond unbelievable. Yeah. And Alex said, I just, I don't know if I'm a stillman pond. And so I've always thought about stillman pond. But I think about winter quarters.

He represents a lot of people losing a lot of family members and having to leave them behind as well as you move west, right? Leaving these graves behind and heading west. Well, in the marvelous monument that's here in in Winter Quarter Cemetery by Evard Fairbanks, it's called the tragedy of Winter Quarters. It really is the tragedy and the triumph of the interquarters because it captures in a sublime way the suffering of the saints the grief of the saints But their faith and determination to move forward no matter what and You see that in this tremendous monument it captures that in a way that is breathtaking

You know, we wouldn't have the winter quartersarters Temple, which is just across the street. We probably wouldn't have that temple word, not for those pioneers. We might not even have the church in part, if it hadn't been for the faith of the pioneers. It's that kind of a moment when the church, Brigham Young said, I put it this way, Brigham Young said, if we don't make it, this church will be driven to the seven winds, meaning that if this doesn't work, if this Exodus don't make it this church will be driven to the seven winds, meaning that if this doesn't work, if this Exodus doesn't make it, we may never see that valley. Let alone the future, we may never see the future of the church because of people going one way or another.

It was so critical that this succeed because as you say we couldn't see the future but the Lord knowing the future gives us less this revelation through his servant, Brigham Young He's not even the president church yet, but he's receiving a revelation is in its capacity is present the camp of Israel He understand that he won't become the president church church until the December of 1847. So notice verse 22, talking about hope. I am here who led the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, another earlier exodus. And my arm is stretched out in the last days to save my people, Israel. And that word save when they're dying by the hundreds, if not the thousand. The Lord is saying to his people, and don't think that they didn't read it, because this

was read to all the saints by all the various high councils and bishops to all the different groups on both sides of the river. To save my people, you can see why that word means so much to them at this moment, that I know you're dying. I know you're suffering. I know this is a tough, tough moment, but I'm going to save this even through the dark times. I'm going to save this church. I'm going to save Israel. Talk about hope. That's one of the great messages of section 136, the word and the will of the Lord to save his people in their afflictions. And like you say, John, one in 10, one in 12 are dying. One in 12 are dying. You take a look at the numbers that are dying today of COVID and what have you. Maybe one, three, four, five hundred, one in 12 are dying here at winter quarters. Yeah, I was thinking about. I mean, if there are

roughly 17 million members of the church today, What would we think if 1.7 million? If 10 percent, wow, I mean, it's a huge I love what you're saying about the we part and then this seems to emphasize what you just read 23-24 cease to contend cease drunkenness of unity, not the Zion the place, but Zion the pure and heart. If it's going to be we, we've got to be unified as we begin this Exodus. I love too that you mentioned, I mean, the Lord's mentioning the original Exodus, and I'm seeing all these footnotes of Exodus.

And like on the last page, I was noticing in verse three Exodus 18 21 They also had captains of hundreds and captains of fifties and captains of ten when Moses was trying to do everything and Jethro was telling me you got to delegate to that. I love that story and So it has an echo of the original Exodus, I think. They deliberately patterned themselves after that. More so as time goes on, they begin to see that this is not just a journey, that this truly is an Exodus, not unlike what the children of Israel did. Here's a critical point about their destination.

You look high and low in section 136 and you won't see a word about them going to the Salt Lake Basin. You won't see a word about going to the to Utah or anything like that. You would think that if this is the exodus, the the revelation on the exodus, what where are we going? Here's some of those, like I said earlier, some like George Miller and others who were contending with Brigham Young saying, do you know what you're going?

Do you have it? Where are you taking this? Do you really have an idea where you're going? And here comes the word in the will of the Lord with the Lord speaks and says, not a, not a sentence, not a word about their final destination. But what does he say? cease to contend one with another like I said, John cease to speak evil one with another.

And if I bore West of thy neighbor, how shall we store that which I'll spoil? Probably tools when they're making their cabins and everything else. And if you'll you shall find that which thy neighbor has lost, I'll show it make diligent search so they'll deliver it to him again. I mean, it's very, very mundane sort of things. Make sure you get it back. Well, the point is this, and from my perspective, they'll find their place if they follow their God. Don't worry too much about the place. God. Don't worry too much about the place. Worry about your covenants. Worry about your obedience. In fact, that goes right back to verse two. Remember that with a covenant and a promise to keep all the commandments and statues of the Lord

our God and his ordinances. It's a revelation on obedience. And here the Lord speaks to the prophet, Brigham Young, and I firmly believe that the Lord is inspiring, Brigham Young and all of this because I don't think that you can make these things up at this moment. There's too many equations here, too many movable parts for someone just to come up with a silly little revelation. The critical thing is to live the gospel and the law will work out for you even in your difficulties. And the things that seem important to us, the Lord said, there's more important things than that. And so I really think that So I really think that the principle of the Exodus is obedience and consecration and covenant.

Zion shall be redeemed in my own due time. That's the principle here of obedience. And I think that's a marvelous statement of prophetic leadership. Yeah. The idea of trust, trust God. I liked what you said there. They'll find their place if they follow their God. He's not over. I can take care of the place, but you have to choose to be the right people. There's a lot in here that we can use today. Don't you think, uh, John, uh, Richard, I mean, let your words tend to edify one another.

If you borrow something from your neighbor, get it back to them. Don't speak evil of one another. So they're still human beings, aren't they? Out there, and I'm sure they're having human conflicts with each other, especially when you get hungry and tired. Join us for part four of Dr. Nucovance, 135 to 136. you