Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 137-138 Part 2 : Dr. Steven C. Harper

Episode Date: November 28, 2021

Dr. Harper returns to discuss Doctrine and Covenants, Section 138, and the historical background regarding Joseph F. Smith’s revelation, 80 years after the revelation in Section 137.  We consider the love the Father and Son have for every person and how mercifully they extend the opportunity for celestial glory.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Part 2 of this week's podcast. Joseph Smith's an old man in October 1918 when he sees the series of visions that we have described for us in section 138. So in fact, he'll be, he'll pass away about six or seven weeks after this, this text is received, this revelation is received. Steve, can you give us a little bit, just give us a little history of Joseph F Smith, time to the Missouri period, a little bit, okay. Yeah, who's his father again and all that stuff?

Joseph F Smith was born in 1838 and what was at that point the worst year in the life of his father, Hiram Smith. He was blessed by his father, while his father was in jail at Liberty, Missouri, as an infant. His mother Mary took him there, took him to the jail, where his father blessed him. His uncle Joseph the prophet was there and Joseph F Smith grows up maybe more wounded by death than just about anybody that I know of in history. Think about it this way. He's five years old when he sees the bullet hole in his father's face. He's laying there in a pine box. And I mean,

you can smell his decaying body by now. And they've tried to shove cotton in his cheekbone, but you don't get over that sight. That's such a traumatic experience that you don't get over it. And it's not very many years later that his mother passes away. They make it safely across the plains with Joseph's siblings, but his mother passes away when he's in his early teens. She gets a lung infection and it takes her. So by his early teens, he's an orphan. That's Mary Fielding, right Steve?

Yes. Mary Fielding Smith, a heroic figure in the restoration, the mother of a prophet, the grandmother of another, what a woman. And she instills her son with some serious feistiness that is one of his best attributes. But before it becomes a strength, it is a weakness for him. And he, he does not get along well with others always. And he is a traumatized youth and his stepdad, he brachimble and brachim young, the prophet, they know who he is and they love him and they look after him. And as you know, at age 15, when he's 15, that is, they send him on a mission with an older family member to look after him. They send him to Hawaii. Is it true that he beat up his teacher and they said,

we got to send this boy. Yeah, with all this energy. This disputed a little bit. The exact nature of the fight with the principal. I don't know for sure, but I'll tell you this, he is an angry kid. He is an angry teen. He is angry at the wagon company captain who said his mom and the kids were just going to be a burden on him for the rest of his life. I mean, I think when he's an old man and a prophet of the church, he's still mad at the guy who yeah So I liked that about him. I like that Joseph F Smith Becomes I mean nobody is more hurt traumatized

Devastated by death and therefore nobody is more blessed by death and therefore nobody is more blessed, strengthened, hopeful by section 138. Do you see how it works? If anybody longed deeply for this revelation, it was him. And so I just love that the Lord gave it to him. And I love that he could grow into the long-bearded old prophet who's has such a tender heart from the long-haired, angry look on his face youth who the Brigham Young sent on a mission to Hawaii so he could learn the gospel and learn to

to grow up and it took him a while. He was a violent and frustrated young man. His first marriage did not work out because he was immature and unprepared and needed to grow up and he did. He continued to grow up, continued to apply the principles of the gospel. He married, again, married wonderfully well and began to have children. Some of his children died. In fact, I think 13 of his children passed away over the years. And in the early days of 1918, early in that year, a young apostle and a recently returned mission president from the European mission, Hiram Max Smith, Joseph F. Soltus' son, has an appendix burst and dies. And not long after that, his wife dies, leaving several children. And this is devastating to Joseph Smith. And it's just one more in a long life of devastating deaths.

And he's on record saying how much these these deaths of his loved ones hurt. And we might think, well, wow, you know the plan of salvation, why do they hurt? But they do. They he's wounded by death in a way that I I have experienced a little bit in this last year of my life. So I'm beginning to have a little better sense for what Joseph F is saying, but I'm sure I haven't even come close yet. To the trauma and the woundedness, the pain and grief over, over and over. So here he is now, late in life, he's the mature prophet, and he knows very well that God has a plan to save those who never heard. He knows that Joseph Smith has taught that. He knows that that Brigham Young taught it. He knows that Wilford Woodruff taught it, but he also knows that there's not a lot of revealed knowledge about it. And he wants to know. He wants to know exactly

what the situation of the dead is. Where are they? What are they doing? He has some questions, including as he reads and rereads the scriptures very carefully, how in the world did this Savior reach the gospel to the dead and have any kind of success when he was there for hours and his three-year ministry on Earth yielded comparatively few converts. That's one of the questions he has after he sees his first vision, we might say,

of the redemption for the dead. So that's the setting for 138. It comes the day before general conference in October 1918. And he's been sick for almost half a year. Nobody expects him to show up at conference, and he does the next day. Speaks briefly and says, I have not been alone. I have lived in communication with the Spirit of the Lord, which is a massive, wonderful understatement given what we now know about what he'd been seeing the day before. And Steve, I think the saints of 2020 have at least somewhat

of an idea of 1918, right? Because there is a pandemic. Yeah, the last time there was a global pandemic before ours was in 1918, this this era that comes at the end of World War One was called at the time the Spanish influenza and all due respect to COVID-19, the Spanish influenza was exponentially more devastating. influenza was exponentially more devastating. Conservative estimates say 50 million deaths worldwide. There's almost nobody who doesn't know somebody who's taken by their children who walk the streets alone orphaned overnight because their parents have been taken in it. It kills people badly, too.

It's a real devastating toll. And this, of course, is on the heels of the First World War, which kills 9 million or so people. This is devastating. Think about this way. The day that the prophet Joseph Smith receives this series of visions is the day that the German chancellor communicates with the US President Woodrow Wilson seeking an armistice. That's how closely connected the end of World War One is to this series of visions. The world has been afflicted by death and devastation in a way that to that point in time had never happened before, at least not in recent memory. And October of 1918 is the deadliest month in American history still, to this day,

almost 200,000 people wiped out in one month of American American history. And in the population of America compared to a pair now, yeah, just this much smaller population. Oh, goodness. As of this recording, COVID-19, we hit 5 million deaths. And you said 50 million deaths and that's a conservative Estimate. Yeah my goodness Death is everywhere. It is everywhere and everybody's thinking about it right everybody's wondering where are the dead

As George Tate this wonderful Humanities scholar BYU has shown in a brilliant essay he wrote about it scholar BYU has shown in a brilliant essay he wrote about it. Everybody on the planet almost is wondering about death. It's not just Joseph Smith, but the answers that people come up for most people, there are no answers. And many, many of the dead are, there's no closure in that sense. We talk about it because lots of these World War One casualties are never recovered. There are people dead at sea. There are people blown to bits. There are thousands upon thousands of people on the battlefields of Europe who are never ever recovered. Families never see their loved ones again in any form. They don't get to bury them. They don't get to visit their grave. They don't even know where a grave if there is one. So there's this terrible

gnawing feeling of avoid caused by death and disease of war. And everybody is feeling it in one sense or another. This is the same year that Arthur Conan Doyle in Britain will write a book called New Revelation, where he'll advocate spiritualism. He'll propose a solution to this gnawing absence by saying, you can commune with your dead through spiritualism and smart and Talented and great people will be drawn to that very much. It sort of is It's understandable, but it's not the revealed answer, right? Joseph Smith at the same time is seeking and receiving

Christ centered much more Christ centered is seeking and receiving Christ-centered, much more Christ-centered, revealed answers to the terrible questions that everybody is asking, where are the dead? And what processes and plans has the Lord put in place for their salvation and redemption? Truman Madsen tells a great story about Joseph F. Smith visiting Carthage Jail as an adult and just breaking down and saying to Charles Penrose, get me out of here, Charlie, get me out of here, right? Just the blood of his father has dried into the floor. And everyone listening has been affected by death in some way.

You don't have to feel like, oh, I haven't been that affected, right? But everybody has felt this, the wonderful Sorenson family who sponsors our podcast had this current their family in January. John lost his mom recently. I lost my brother and my father in the last year. Steve, you lost two brothers. I did over the last several years and my father earlier this year and when my oldest brother was killed surprisingly in a terrible car accident, I found myself in a deep longing for knowledge. I read section 138 over and over and over. I wanted to know where he was and what he was doing. And I to this day, I'm incredibly consoled by verse 57 in this section. I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from this mortal

life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption through the sacrifice of the only begotten Son of God among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead. And then listen to this line, the dead who repent will be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. That is really beautiful, restored truth. Wow. And that can fill the void. You're talking about author, author, Conan Doyle, who just wants to fill the void, but can't. And this, this revelation can fill the void. Sorry, John, what were you going to add there? I think it was the funeral of Elder Richard L Evans,

who used to be the voice of music in the spoken word. He was actually a member of the 12, but he was the Lloyd Newell of the time that was the voice of music in the spoken word. And I think it was Joseph Filding Smith that said that that I just remember the one phrase, they are simply transferred to other fields of labor when they die. And that's that sounds like that. Continue their labors. And before my dad passed away, he had Parkinson's disease and some other things. And when he could still talk to us and communicate

pretty well, I remember giving him a blessing once and he turned around and looked at me and said, John, I think I'm going to hell. And I couldn't tell if he was joking or what. And I was like, dad, and he said to teach. And I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. That's a good one, dad, you know. And he did really? Oh, my dad had such a sense of humor, but I think that he was so looking forward to continuing his, because he loved, he was a convert to the church, but he loved teaching and he was looking forward to being able to do that again. That is a great, great.

I love that. John, I have the quote here, you're right. It's the funeral for Richard L Evans. You can find it on the church as well. In the case of the faithful saints, I think it starts like that. Yeah, he says, life in labor and love are eternal. And brother Evans is now assigned

to continue his work in the spirit world. Until that day when he shall come forth in a glorious immortality to receive his place. He held the Holy Priesthood in this life and was ordained to a sand as a special witness of the Lord's name, and may I say for the consolation of those who mourn and for the comfort and guidance of all of us that no righteous man is ever taken before his time. In the case of the faithful saints, they are simply transferred to other fields of labor. The Lord's work goes on in this life, in the world of the spirits, and in the kingdoms of glory where men go after their resurrection.

So I like to joke that my dad is serving in the hell spirit prison mission, and that my mom joined him last December, and now they're companions. So and the work goes on. They got, they just got transferred. Yeah. I bet he was pleased about that. And in assignment. Yeah. I think so.

I've always thought that Nephi and Isaiah must be teaching together and Isaiah is like kid, you got to stop the gushing. Right. I've signed everything and you've given to me. I just, let's just keep teaching, okay? Or maybe Isaiah starts and he does the first principle and then Isaiah and then Nephi has to translate it or the, make sure it makes sense.

What did he say? Let me say that a little more plainly. Yeah. All right. Well, let's go back to verse one. Walk us through this revelation, Steve. I'm excited now. Well, there are two sections of the doctrine and covenants

like this. And what I mean by that is most of the sections don't tell their own story. You have to have a heading to figure out the who, when, where this one tells its own story, right? On the 3rd of October, 1918. And that's because the two sections that do that are not revelation texts that are somehow conveyed by the Savior into Joseph's mind or Joseph's mismind, their visions, their series of visions. So what you have here is the visionary describing the series of visions and their delightful. I mean, these are

great sections. So Joseph's, Joseph Smith is sitting in his room at his home downtown on South Temple Street in Salt Lake City, pondering over the scriptures. These first several verses tell us what the recipe is for revelation. If you want to get revelations, here are some things you should do. Emers yourself in the scriptures, ponder them, reflect. Reflect on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the redemption of the world. Think about the love that was manifested by the father

in sending his son to redeem the world so that through the principles of the gospel mankind might be saved. When you do that, you situate yourself for more light and knowledge. Joseph Smith knew that well, and he knows how to do this recipe. If someone says to me, how come this doesn't happen to me? Well, one was the last time you were sitting in your room, saturating yourself in Scripture, reflecting on the great atoma of Christ, right? When's the last time you took time away from Netflix? And when's the last time you took away from ESPN to sit and just ponder and immerse yourself? John would say, Marinate yourself.

Marinate. Marinate. Yeah. Marinate in it. So I love this. Steve, it's a recipe for revelation. And it's a pattern. It comes to Nephi's life. Right? I sat and pondered and I was carried away by the Spirit.

The Lord makeeth no such thing known unto us. Well, have you asked him? No, he tried the recipe. I know. I didn't think about that. Notice verse 5, right? He was engaged. He uses powerful verbs throughout. I was engaged in this thinking and my mind brought back to my thinking, scriptures that he'd read over and over. He's read about Peter and about Paul and what they've taught about redemption for the dead. He focuses specifically on the first epistle of Peter and a couple of key passages there that he paraphrases and quotes from about how Christ went to the spirits of the dead. Todd them so that they could be judged just like they were living in the flesh even though they weren't anymore. But you know, there's a few words in First Peter. What do they mean? Joseph

of Smith knows that the gospel is somehow preached to the dead, but he wants more than the few verses in First Peter. He really wants to know the details. And he's seeking that more than ever before. And he's pondering these things. He says in verse 11, and as he puts all this together, his past scripture study, his, his, you know, immersing himself in the scriptures and in the Savior's Atonement and in God's love, a seeking and now he receives. The eyes of his understanding are opened. The spirit of the Lord rests upon me, verse 11 says, and he sees the hosts of the dead, small and great. He sees they're gathered together in a place, an innumerable company of righteous dead. These are people who are faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived on earth.

They have offered sacrifice in the Savior's, in some illitude of the Savior's atonement. They departed this life, firm in the faith of a glorious resurrection. They were filled with joy and gladness and rejoicing because they realized that the day of their deliverance had come, they've been waiting for the Savior to come and rescue them and here it is. So section 45 of the doctrine, comments tells us that even people, righteous people who die think of the period of time before, between their death and resurrection as bondage, apparently because they don't get to progress, they don't get to go on to the next phase. So even those who live in the hope of a glorious resurrection, it's sort of like us in a holding period,

right? We don't want to stay there forever. We know it's not forever, but we're eager to get on. So these folks are very, very happy. And they rejoice in verse 18 says, at the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appears and declares liberty to the captives who had been faithfully preaches the everlasting gospel. And then one of the key insights of Joseph Smith's revelation is verse 20, to the wicked, he did not go. He doesn't go to the wicked, nor to the rebellious. There are a whole bunch of people left in a prison part of the world of the dead. And this leads Joseph of Smith to think more, wonder more, right? Verse 28 tells us, I wondered at the words of Peter when he said that the Son of God preached to the spirits in prison, who were disobedient back in the days of Noah. How is it possible,

Joseph of Smith wonders, primed a preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time. And here he is his thinking, you know, the Savior preached on earth for three years and had relatively few converts. How is he supposed to go for less than three days into the spirit world and and make any headway among the infinite, leave more vast number of people there. And that's when the next chapter of the Revelation comes to him. He realizes, as the Lord reveals to him, that Jesus doesn't go himself to the wicked and disobedient, but verse 30 says, he organized his forces and appointed

messengers, clothed with power and authority, commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them who were in darkness, even to all the spirits, and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. George Tate, who I mentioned earlier, and his really brilliant article about this revelation in the various contexts of it, he drew attention to the way that verse uses what we might think of as military terms, right? Imagine that the world has just been just declared, not yet even fact, we're a month and a week away from declaring armistice to World War I when this series of visions is given. And so we've got armies all over Europe that have been commissioned and organized. And I think Brother Tate was particularly sensitive,

Professor Tate. I thought it was insightful the way he said, look at that language and notice that Jesus is putting together his army to do his work in a way that contrasts with the way the armies of this world go about their work. It's an army of construction, not an army of destruction, right? Very cool, isn't it? An army of salvation. I like being part of that army. I like going to the temple and feeling like I'm in this battalion, and I'm called to the work, and I would curl up in the fetal position if I was actually asked to go to any sort of a physical battle, but I'm all in the

the war that we're anxiously engaged in for souls and for redemption and the the war that manifests the love of God and the redemption of Jesus Christ. That's my kind of warfare and I'm excited that we've got a prophet here who's seeing the visions of the Lord revealing this this campaign. In your temple clothes are your uniform clothed with power and authority. All right, I'll put on the uniform. That's great. Indeed. The chosen messengers, verse 31 says, went forth to declare the acceptable day proclaim liberty to the captives, right? This is going to liberate the spirit prison. Lots of prisoners of war being held, and these soldiers are going to let them go free.

That's their great work is to liberate the captives. Isaiah taught about this. He prophesied this great day. And as you know, section 128 of the doctrine, Covenants, Joseph Smith exalts that the Lord has ordained before the world was a plan that would make it so that the prisoners could go free. And this is not long after he's emerged from months in that hellhole in Liberty, Missouri. He knows better than ever in his life what it's like for the prisoners to go free. And there's this wonderful medieval Christian tradition about the harrowing of hell.

And this is where Jesus goes into the world of the spirits and breaks down the prison door and punches Satan right in the face and liberates the captives. There's the art that depicts this is really great stuff. And I love it. There's this wonderful tradition of artwork that shows hell, sometimes in the form of a giant monster or a dark prison. And Jesus goes into it and opens the monster's mouth or breaks down the door. In one painting, the Satan is being squished under the door of the prison,

and the captives are being liberated by Jesus. And this teaching is pervasive in medieval Christianity. It survives Augustine. He can't kill it, but it doesn't survive very well. The Protestant Reformers, and it takes Joseph Smith to say, you know, that gospel that was taught by Peter and Paul, that was right. And this vision, this series of visions restores that truth, and then expands greatly what we know about it. It tells us so much more than we knew before about how the gospel is preached to the dead and who does it. I've wondered, Steve, if someone on the other side, someone in spirit prison thinks they're in hell, right? Maybe thinks there's no out of this.

I am here for eternity. And maybe there is no one who knows that there's no way out of here. This is hell, this is forever. And to have that moment where hell opens up and say you can come out, come out of there, right? I just think maybe they, on the other in spirit prison, they didn't know it was coming. And to think of that moment, when you find

out that there's a way out of here. Speaking of doctrines that taste good, right? I just section 19, I remember as a teenager reading that I did not say the punishment would have no end. I said it was endless punishment because endless is my name. Oh, yeah. This idea of burning in hell for a trillion years. I mean, the worst way I could think of to die is to burn to death and then to the trillionth power and it goes on forever and section 19 Oh, and this same kind of the thing that you just mentioned Hank is here comes the Lord. Yeah, doctrines that really taste good I think that's why we Steve always talks about a great movie. I think it's a great movie. This is where you know the door

It's kicked open and there's Gandalf riding over the mountain on the third day and here comes your right here comes salvation. I'm with you either way, right? Whether they whether these folks have no hope whatsoever, total despair, no knowledge that redemption is on the way. That redemption has got to be the greatest. And let's say they do, you know, somebody has informed them, you know, rescue is on its way, but think how long they've been there and how much despair. It is like a prisoner of war, who's been there a mighty long time, and you could easily just lose hope and become completely in despair. And then here comes the forces that have been organized by the Son of God, preaching redemption and resurrection.

And all start team. Yeah. We all start team writing out who's on this team. Our glorious mother, Eve, and many of her faithful daughters, verse 39 says, who lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. That is a restored truth that is very delicious. That's uncommon, as you both know. The rest of the Christian world does not

talk about our glorious mother Eve. Eve is the problem. And I'm thankful to know I'd like to know who these faithful daughters are we get a lot more men named by name Noah Seth Abel Sham Abraham Isaac Jacob Moses Zekiel Elias Elijah Joseph Hiram John Taylor Wilfred Woodruff and other choice spirits were reserved to come forth All the prophets who dwell among the Nephites. Yeah, right. I mean, that all those who's prophets, yeah. Goodness.

I read those passages and I think, yeah, that's impressive. I don't belong there. But verse 57. Dad, who's your mission president? I wish I could ask you. Who's your own leader? Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday,

Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, Thursday, maybe a junior companion in that company. That's a good way to live in. And I will be grateful for the assignment. Who's your zone leader? Who's your sister training leader? Oh, you know. Oh, just, just Esther. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so think about verse 39, our glorious mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who live through the ages. One of those I would guess is Susie Young Gates. She was a dear friend of Joseph F. Smith and a couple of weeks after the revelation she visited him at his house and he said, Susie, you got to see this. And he showed her the text of the revelation. She was thrilled with it. She felt it was a great privilege to see it before the whole world got to see it. And she wrote about it beautifully and talked about what a difference it would make.

She had her own frustrations trying to get the saints, trying to persuade the saints how important it was for them to find the names of the sea-stand sisters and do their temple work. And she thought this series of visions would be the greatest impetus she called it and getting them to to see the vision to catch the vision. I can't imagine that she's not one of the the faithful daughters over there continuing the work she did here on earth for decades

and and just want to many undoubtedly. Make sure you want to get to the temple doesn't it? Yeah, line up with these people and help them out. And shall we not go on in so great a cause? This is the cause that was being talked about. And certainly it's what President Nelson keeps emphasizing to us the gathering on both sides of the veil. The, uh, this is it. Yeah. This is it. The greatest work you could ever do. The reason you're here. Yeah. President Nelson, I love how he has been emphasizing over and over the work of salvation. This, the greatest work you could be involved in. This is why you're here.

Wouldn't it be cool? And look at verse 51, these are the people of the Lord taught. So imagine Isaiah being taught, Ezekiel being taught, Eve being taught by the Lord and gave them power and they are going to go on and continue their labor. That's just so beautiful. So such a fun revelation. Oh, I think I was exactly thinking that surrounded by so much sadness related to death, Joseph F. Smith to see all of this.

And what this must have done to his heart and his spirits, the hope, the joy, the anticipation, all coming together. Yeah. So it's November 19th when he makes the journey between the world he was in and this world, you know, six weeks after these visions and he, nobody knew better what to expect

and nobody I'm guessing was more, more delighted to get involved in the work on that side. He had a tour before he went. Yeah, before he went. And like me, I think he's saying, these are my people, you know, those are my people. I'm not, I'm looking forward to the day when it's my turn to get a call to that field and to go

to work there. Yeah. Yeah. That is, that's a man. It is a wow, John. It's a wow section. Let's say a couple more things about it. It's really beautiful to me that the gospel that is taught to the dead is the exact same gospel taught to the

living with this wrinkle that the ordinances are offered vicariously and the covenants are available, you can make and keep them on the same terms and conditions you can make and keep them in mortality. you can make and keep them in mortality. So, exact same gospel, no difference except that the work is done, the ordinance work done by proxy. And then maybe one of the most vital things about this section is how Christ centered it is and how potent Joseph Smith's witness of the Savior is. I was saying earlier that there were lots of people, CS Lewis, is writing poetry at the same time expressing this longing for the dead. He'd been in World War I. He'd been injured in World War I, Arthur Conan Doyle, lots of people, lots of people.

You know some of the poetry in Flanders fields and lots of people are coming up with, they're either expressing the longing or they're offering a solution to it of some kind or other. And of all those possibilities, Joseph F. Smith's is the most Christ centered. And it declares his witness over and over. It's a sensory witness, right? If we read every verse, we'd notice him saying things like, I saw, I heard, I be held. And then at the end here, he says, I bear record. And I know that this record record is through the blessing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, even so, amen. This is a series of revelations.

Jesus Christ is at the center of them. He is the answer, right? He's the resolution to the problem of death. His plan is the one that resolves the problem of death. He's the one who organized his forces and commissioned his officers and sent them into the world to preach his gospel. It's his atonement that redeems the dead as well as the living. It's his ordinances and covenants that provide the redemption. And Joseph Smith never lets us forget that.

The other alternatives are Thircona Doyle's book, New Revelation. It's hopeful, you know, it's, it's goal is to satisfy that longing for some answer or some voice from the dead, but it doesn't offer a Christ-centered plan of redemption, like Section 138 does. I was just thinking of a phrase Sherry do used in a talk once where she said the gospel reaches across the street, across the world, and across the veil, and that we can have an impact here in temples, that we can have an impact over there is kind of an amazing thought, isn't it? It reminds me of, second, you find nine, right?

When Jacob finds out that you don't have to stay dead forever, he just is exclaiming, oh, the growth of theness. Greatness of our God. But there's so many exclamation points in that chapter. All right. I call that the o's and the woes chapter because it starts with a bunch of woes

and then it goes to a bunch of woes. But that's one of the doctrinal, second Nephi II, second Nephi IX, Alma 34, big doctrines. He talks to about the awful monster of death hell. That's exactly how medieval Christians depicted death and hell as an awful monster. And Jesus defeats the awful monster. Um, hey, could we mention something because verse 56 kind of sounds like now we're going into the pre-mortal existence. It gives us a little glimpse into, yeah. Yeah. It gives us that, uh, that past, present, future. I mean, even before they were born, they with many others

received their first lessons in the world of spirits. I've heard people say, you don't really gain a testimony. You remember it. It's interesting. It is. That phrase in, phrase in verse 55 about the noble and great ones chosen in the beginning links us to the Abraham three passage. beginning links us to the Abraham III passage. So what scholars call in fancy terms intertextuality here between Abraham III, we're meant to remember what we learned in Abraham III and bring it forward into this text to inform what we're reading here. Right. Steve, when you were talking earlier Steve, when you were talking earlier about the arbitrary God, if you don't include a pre-mortal life, not only do you have an arbitrary God, he created you to be damned. You didn't even sign up. That's the sovereignty thing. Yeah, I'm sorry. If you weren't elected to be saved, that's tough luck. Yeah. And I created you only to damn you, right?

You didn't even get a choice in the matter. At least in the premortal life, we have a God who says, do you want to go or not? There's agency again, do you want to have this opportunity or not? So a premortal life, though only a glimpse of it, we have here, is crucial to our understanding of the character of God.

It tastes good. I think Steve, it was your podcast earlier where you said, repent relentlessly. Was that you? Yeah, I believe in that. I try to practice it as best I can. It's not perfection. No. This revelation, both 137 and 1388 teach us that it's the desire of our heart that matters. We signal to the Savior what we want him to do for us by repenting. And the living can repent, the dead can repent. It's the desire that we manifest by repenting that tells him how we've exercised our agency and then he applies his redeeming sacrifice to us in the degree and proportion

that we want, that we hope for, that we seek. Never against our will. It's a beautiful try again, gospel, try again, try again, honestly, try again, honestly, try again, it's not a be perfect gospel. It's not a plan of perfection. It's a plan of it's a gospel of repentance and redemption. I like the, I just love airplanes, you know, this about me, Hank, kind of to a degree that's kind of obsession. Yeah, I love airplanes. And so I have loved this repent relentlessly and how this relates to things present at Udorf has talked about or Elder Udorf repeatedly about that an airliner is off course most of the time. But it puts the wheels right on the numbers of the runway

because it just keeps getting back on course, the autopilot keeps steering it back on course and it's a good analogy, good analogy, constantly making corrections. Air planes are repenting relentlessly. Do we, Steve, is there anything that you had on your mind that we haven't? Yeah, boats. You guys should, their planes are nice, but boats, right? Jesus loved boating. Okay, I can talk about boats.

Section one, 23 in all, brother, and the very large ship is benefited very much by a very small home in the time of the storm. There you go. You kept to work away, so the wind and the way is or what is it, Heleman without sale or rudder or without anything wherewith to steer her. Yeah, they're driftwood. They're not boats and and James right James. The ships though they be great.

Very small rudder. Keeps them on course. Very good. Now we're talking. Which was our full of boats. What other vehicles can we throw in? You know, I've appreciated verse 26 a lot. I think when I first got into my mission field, I heard a lot of my companions talking, using a phrase, let's bind the Lord. You know, I Lord and bound when you do what I say and if we just do this in this This all these people will join the church and

We could test that theory was the Savior perfectly obedient Because at verse 26 is is sobering and it allows for agency notwithstanding his mighty works and miracles and Proclamation of the truth in great power and authority. I mean, who could give a sermon better than the Savior and the Spirit that accompanied him? There were but few who harkened it to his voice and rejoiced in his presence and received salvation at his hands. And I think missionaries could beat themselves up. I didn't do that well enough. I didn't do that good enough. And if I had only been this, maybe more would have listened well,

not everybody even listened to the savior. So you do the best you can. John, I think you're right on here. I remember reading Elder Oak saying, be careful making goals based on someone else's agency. You said goals on what you're gonna do, not on what others will do. Yeah, he just said, a missionary's goal is ought to be based upon

the missionary's personal agency and action, not upon the agency or action of others. Very simple statement, but I think you're right on, using the Lord as an example there. He was perfectly obedient and people did not listen. That's Elder Oaks's talk called timing, right? Right. Yeah.

So I think that helped, I sent that to my kids when they were on missions and hopefully some more will go to, but. Right. Thinking if I was more obedient, I would be getting more people somehow. Or if I said that better, if I would have talked better and well, even some even didn't listen to the

Savior in the way he would have as he invited them to. That's an exciting point. Dr. Harper, Steve, you're just incredible mind. We love having you on our show. I think our listeners would love to hear a little bit more about you just on the personal side of about you just on the personal side of, how do you be a faithful scholar, right? How do your faith and your scholarship come together, your education and your faith? Ah, that's great question. I've been thinking lately,

what is my highest value? What do I value most of anything? And I cannot, I have a prize for first place, and it's truth and love. I can't, I can't put one of those in front of the other, but they're both to me the most desirable above anything else. I've been wanting to know the truth about the restored gospel for my whole life. And I had a revelation of that. The first one I can remember when I was probably 19 just about ready to go to the mission field. Having read the Book of Mormon for myself, Nelt, and not very eloquently, but very sincerely, just in my own mind, asked the Lord with real intent, and faith in Christ in a sincere heart, if the Book of Mormon was true, and received an impression in my mind that said, you already know it's true,

I've received an impression in my mind that said, you already know it's true, along with a feeling in my heart that was a deep and abiding desire to affirm that thought. And there's never been a day sense that I can think of that I have not felt to affirm that thought. I've read 100 books since then, a hundred books since then and the original manuscript and the printer's manuscript, what remains of the original. So I know a lot more facts now, right? I know lots more stuff about the book of Mormon, but the testimony

of it is no stronger or weaker today than it was that day. And that truth is my bedrock. Joseph Smith is therefore a prophet. He was called by Jesus Christ. He was a mere kid. He didn't think much of himself except his highest value was truth. He just wanted to know the truth. And he wanted to live the truth. He wanted to be true to himself. And I love him for that. I think some people think I just love Joseph Smith because he's cool. He was real athletic and a good wrestler and stuff, and I couldn't possibly care less. I don't care if he has buck teeth or whatever else, chronic halitosis, which he may very well have had. I don't know, but I don't care. I care whether he revealed Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, and his true gospel. And I've been on a quest to know the answer to

that question for at least 30 years. And I know, I do know, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the revelations are real. They're true. I believe section 137. I believe that he saw Joseph Smith saw in vision his brother Alvin because Jesus wanted him to because Jesus had some restoring to do and he needed Joseph to ask the question that section 137 answers. And I believe that Joseph Smith as an old man who lived a difficult life and one that was devastated by death over and over. I believe he was prepared by the Lord to receive a series of visions in the last several weeks of his life that give us more knowledge of Christ's work of redeeming the dead than

any other source that's ever been revealed. And if anybody is seeking truth, I want them to know about these revelations, these sources. They are so beautiful, desirable. And as you know, there are people who go to great lengths to undermine them, fight against them. I don't know why. I can't figure out why you would want to undermine section 137 or 138. So I, you know, I guess what we can say is that as Moroni prophesied, Joseph's name will be known is known or good and evil everywhere. What an unlikely prophecy that was in 1823, but we live in a day where it's literally fulfilled.

So, even in that, Joseph is a true prophet. Yeah. And he has, I would say, no greater defender than Steve Harper. Anyone who wants to take down the prophet Joseph Smith has to go through the testimonies of some great people and front line is going to be Steve and Jennifer Harper. The thing about personal testimony is you can reject it, but you cannot refute it. I'm grateful for that. It's widely rejected, but for me, it can't be overturned. The blind man in John IX said, whether he's a sinner or not. I know not here's what I know Here's what I know and Steve. Thank you for sharing with us what you know My privilege you how did we get this job? I don't I yeah, I know I'm so blessed

I I just am thinking of my dad you can't you can't take this away from me. I just saw the gospel change him. I witnessed it. Thinking of him now continuing his labors as a verse 57 says, just gives me a lot of hope and a lot of joy, a lot of love, like you said. And that's truth. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Steve Harper and my Okamau Yifaitful co-host, John, by the way.

Thank you to all of you for listening. We've had a wonderful year with all of you. We have a couple more episodes left for you in this year. Thank you to our executive producers, Steven Shannon Sorenson and their wonderful children and grandchildren, our production crew, Lisa Spice. She has so much work for us and she is all behind the scenes. Kyle Nelson, Jamie Nielsen, David Perry, and we'll start and we love you and we hope all of you will join us for our next episode of Follow Him. you