Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 20-22 Part 1 • Dr. Casey Griffiths • March 10-16 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: March 5, 2025

What is the most significant truth revealed since the Annunciation? Dr. Casey Griffith discusses the Church's organization and the joyful Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC211ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC211FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC211DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC211PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC211ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/lUZC5IlW4yYALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 - Part 1 - Dr. Casey Griffiths02:23 The Restoration Proclamation03:19 The Come, Follow Me Manual04:30 D&C 20: Church Constitution06:15 The influence of Moroni 6 11:03 Dr. Griffith’s bio14:15 Moroni’s Guide to Surviving Turbulent Times15:56 The big picture18:47 April 6, 183024:22 What it means to be a member of the Church26:41 D&C 20:6-11 Power from on high and holy work28:59 Why was 6 afraid of 7?30:56 A second witness of Jesus Christ33:03 The Book of Mormon is a witness of the Restoration37:33 D&C 20:37 - Why we do what we do41:43 D&C 20:17-36 - A positive view of the Fall49:49 The great finale and Jesus Christ’s mission54:52 In part how the Atonement works57:52 A missionary story about grace01:03:05 Choosing the Celestial Kingdom01:06:17 Elder Christofferson and Jean Valjean 1:12:51 End of Part 1 -  Dr. Casey GriffithsThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika : Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Coming up in this episode. Pete Slauson I'm a missionary in southern Florida. We knock on this guy's door. The guy opens the door and says, guys, I'm a Lutheran minister. I don't think you want to talk to me. And I was, you know, pretty fiery and I stuck my foot in the door and said, actually, you're exactly the kind of person that we want to talk to. And the guy goes, okay, tell me if you had to stand before God and justify why you deserve to go to the celestial kingdom or whatever you guys believe in, why you're justified to be there. And I was 19 and very young and kind of dumb. And I remember saying,

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of follow him. My name is Hank Smith, I am your host, and I am here with my repenting co-host, John Bytheway. John, have you ever read Doctrine and Covenants 20 verse 29? We know that all men, including John Bytheway, must repent. Daily, hourly, repent relentlessly. I know you well and there's not a lot of repentance to be done, but I'm sure you could find something.

Au contraire, mon frère. There's plenty. There's plenty. We'll keep trying. John, we are joined today by our friend. Honestly, John, when I think of my favorite teachers in the church, the entire church I've ever heard, Casey Griffiths comes to mind. Dr. Casey Griffiths is with us today. Welcome Casey. Thank you. Back at you. You two are two of my favorite teachers also.

We love having you with us. I'm sure a lot of people are very excited. Now, let me ask both of you. John, we're going to look at section 20 today. This is a pivot point for the church. Everything changes in section 20. So John, what are you looking forward to? Thank you for asking. What I am hoping we can do, especially for the adults who listen, who have kids and grandkids who ask questions, because the question I get a lot is, well, why do we need a church? Can't we just believe in God and be good people? Why do we need a church? Why does it have to be an organization? Today, when a lot of people have different feelings about organized religion, I'm excited to talk about why does the Lord say You're gonna have a church and this is what you're gonna do and this is what it's about

Hmm. That's fantastic Casey as you've looked at these sections I can't imagine how many times in your career what stands out this time This time I just ran through it again this afternoon, and what stood out was how much the emphasis was on the Savior from the very beginning. Section 20 is through and through a document about Jesus Christ, what He does for us, and how we can draw closer to Him. Can I quote the Restoration Proclamation about this? They write, We declare that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints organized on April 6, 1830, which is what is happening when this section is given, is Christ's New Testament Church restored. And then they wrote this, this church is anchored in the perfect life of its chief cornerstone,

Jesus Christ, and it is infinite atonement and literal resurrection. And there's no way a person could read section 20 and not come away believing and knowing that we're centered on Christ, that that's what we're all about, that that's what we believe in, that He's the central figure in our religion. What a way to start. The Come Follow Me manual has a great opener that I want to read for both of you. And then Casey, let's find out what you want to do. If you want to give us some background, if we want to just walk verse by verse.

Here's how it starts. The Savior's work of bringing forth the Book of Mormon was now complete, but His work of restoration had just started. In addition to restoring doctrine and priesthood authority, the Lord had made it clear through earlier revelations that He also wanted to restore a formal organization, his church. On April 6, 1830, more than 40 believers crowded into the Whitmer family's log home in Fayette, New York to witness the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ. Some people may wonder why an organized church is even necessary.

The answer may be found at least in part in the revelations connected with that first church meeting in 1830. They describe blessings that would have not been possible if the true Church of Jesus Christ had not been regularly organized and established in the latter days. What a great kickoff. Casey, where do you want to go? How do we start to get the most out of this section? Well, let me take a minute and explain the significance of this section.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 has been called the constitution of the church. It's sort of the founding document. But on a practical level, this is the doctrine and covenants before there's a doctrine of covenants. They don't talk about making a doctrine covenants until about a year and a half later. It's the first church handbook too. It's all those things combined together in one thing. If I were to try and capture its essence, I would also say it's sort of desert island, latter day, saneism. I mean, imagine a scenario. This is what I bring up with my classes.

If you were on a ship that was going down and everybody's jumping off and you're going to have to organize a branch of the church on this desert island and you can't take anything with you, you'd open up your doctrine and covenants and tear out section 20 because it gives you the basic operating instructions for a branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's got the basic history, it's got the basic beliefs, and it has the most basic ordinances that we do, including baptism, confirmation, the sacrament, and blessing children. This is about as essential as it gets, and for a lot of people, this was the motivation

to create a Doctrine and Covenants, as people were literally taking copies of Section 20 and folding them up and putting them in their pockets so that when missionaries were going around, they knew how to organize the church. Like this is the most basic set of operating instructions for the church that you can find in any of the four standard works. Jared I love Moroni 6. It has a little bit of why we take everybody's names and how we do our meetings, why we do our meetings. This is a lot more, would you say? Pete Slauson Yeah, and it's fair to say that Moroni 6 is a huge influence on this. One scholar, Jack Welsh, has done a little study where he compared the content of Doctrine and Covenants 20 with the content of the Book of Mormon. And about half of the section is

a direct quotation from the Book of Mormon, which also demonstrates that they were taking the Book of Mormon really seriously, and they were using it as a template for how they were going to set up the church. So, some of those really influential passages like Mosiah 17, almost the entire book of Moroni, were used as the building blocks to set up this church in the latter days. It's got a close relationship with the Book of Mormon, and it's probably fair to say that the reason why they waited until April 1830 to organize the church is they were waiting for the first copies of the Book of Mormon to be printed and to be in people's hands so that they would know. And from the beginning, this is going to be a church that's centered on the Scriptures, but especially the Book

of Mormon, which gives us that kind of Christ-centered approach that we want. Jared But a week and a half earlier, you have March 27th, right? 1830, you have copies of the Book of Mormon. Pete Yeah. I think they were raring to go. As early as Doctrine and Covenants 5, the Lord had told them they were going to organize a church, then Doctrine and Covenants 10, and then Doctrine and Covenants 18, the Lord's telling them, okay, here's the things the church needs. And at that point, which is the summer before the spring that this happens, Oliver Cowdery is told to draft a document that's going to be the founding document for this church, and he puts it together.

It's kind of a unique fusion. Parts of it were definitely given by Revelation. Joseph Smith describes it as a document given by Revelation. In fact, here's how he introduces it in his 1838 history. He says, In this manner did the Lord continue to give us instructions from time to time concerning introduces it in his 1838 history. He says, but also pointed out to us the precise day upon which, according to his will and commandment, we should proceed to organize this church once again here upon the earth. Dr. Covenant's 20 is kind of a unique thing where we can find places where Joseph Smith told Oliver Cowdery to draft it, but then Joseph Smith says, but we also received it by revelation, and then it

has a big healthy chunk of the Book of Mormon, and it looks like it's all three of those things coming together to create this foundational document for the church. That's fantastic. I remember two weeks ago, Brother Harper was here with us. If you look at the very beginning of section 18, the Lord tells Oliver Cowdery, the things which you have written are true, which Dr. Harper said that's the Book of Mormon. And then in the next verse, he tells him to rely upon the things which are written. So, it sounds like he did that very thing.

Pete Yeah. And the exact next verse in section 18, for in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock. One thing that Latter-day Saints sometimes don't appreciate is the ecclesiology in the Book of Mormon. Ecclesiology is just a $10 word for the instructions on how to build a church. I was in a meeting once where some people from another restoration church got up and said, well, there's no ecclesiology in the New Testament.

There's no specific instructions about what you're supposed to do. And I raised my hand and said, well, there's tons in the Book of Mormon. Don't you guys use the Book of Mormon? And they were, they looked at me like I was from Mars or something. They were like, you're crazy. The Doctrine and Covenants 20 is them essentially doing that. They're following the Lord's instructions, which are, hey, I gave you this book. Now it's time to start using it to do what I've asked you to do. Use the instructions in the book to set up the church. And Oliver and Joseph,

as a testament to their sincerity, rely deeply upon the text of the Book of Mormon to structure what the church is going to look like. And the DNA that's laid down in section 20, you can still see in every church meeting that you go to on Sunday, everything is right there, from our practices to the offices that you see operating within the church to everything we do from baby blessings to blessing and passing the sacrament. It's all kind of here. Wow. In the first meeting, the first of many meetings.

I might point out too, like if you've ever looked up on the stand during the sacrament and seen the bishop staring down at his scriptures, he's probably got DNC 20 open because that's where the sacrament prayers are. And we've all had that experience where you messed up on the sacrament prayers. This is where the operating instructions are. So any ecclesiastical leader needs to refer back to DNC 20 pretty quickly. It's the handbook too. Pete Slauson Beautiful. Now, John, we need to do something that Casey didn't ask us to do and he wouldn't do himself. So let's do it for him.

Casey, when it comes to resources that he has offered to the church, he's prolific, John. He's a machine, especially when it comes to church history. Yeah. Recently, Scripture Central put out a Doctrine and Covenants commentary. I think it's called the Scriptural Central commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants. It's a pretty good name. Which is four volumes, I think.

That'd be great because it's the latest scholarship, I would say. And you could find that at, where, KC, just about? I mean, anywhere fine Latter-day Saint books are sold, but the publisher is Cedar Fort. They were great to work with. I shout out to the team there who were just absolutely wonderful and the book looks great. One request that I had was I wanted to include the text of the Doctrine and Covenants. So I hate it when I'm using a commentary and I forgot my scriptures and so I can't refer back to the actual verses. One thing I love about the way they put it together was the actual text is there. So text

and then commentary and you can have it all in kind of one place. Jared Slauson Yep. All you would need to do is go to Amazon, type in Casey Griffiths and not only are you going to see those books, but you're going to see a lot of other books that Casey offers. All of these are really well written he has a way of teaching a way of writing that is informative and natural and he's actually pretty funny John if you don't mind a little bit of Dad in him. I'm not as good at dad jokes as you Hank. I'm kind of like the weird uncle eccentric jokes as you, Hank. I'm kind of like the weird uncle eccentric person. Hank S

Weird uncle jokes. Pete S But I will say too, we also on Doctrine and Covenant Central, which you mentioned, John, have a ton of resources, including a commentary and videos and maps and things like that that will help a person. Susan Easton Black wrote short biographies for everybody that's mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants. And that's all free on Doctrine and Covenant Central's. Go there, take advantage of that.

We just wanted people to have a deeper understanding. Steve Harper, who you mentioned earlier, contributed some of our historical context. And we've spent the last couple of years filming videos at church history sites and other things to allow people to contextualize and understand the revelations. That's all free. That's wonderful. I tell my students, we live in the golden age of church history because you're a couple clicks away from not just seeing the text of Doctrine and Covenants 20, but the earliest version of the text, which the Joseph Smith papers have gathered

and digitized and placed on their website. It's just incredible what we can do and the depth of study we can go to. Like you can go as far as you want to go. It is a little overwhelming, but that's okay. Do what you can, pace yourself and just enjoy it. So much, so much to learn. I love it. Morrone, I told Joseph Smith, your name will be known for both good and evil. We see the evil all the time, but there's a lot of good. A lot of good being said.

What a time to be alive, right? Yeah. John, you didn't ask me to do this either, but let me just ask you a question. When you wrote your book on Moroni, what was it called again? Moroni's Guide to Surviving Turbulent Times. All right. You need to get the scripture central people to help you out with your titles. It could be John, by the way, is commentary on Moroni. John, do you see section 20 differently after writing that book? Well, yeah, like I mentioned, Moroni 6 is very brief, but

it does have in there, it has the focus on Christ, it has the fact that we remember each other and that we're baptized and then our names are taken so that we can be remembered, so that we can be nourished by the good word of God. It speaks about meetings. There's the tongue-in-cheek 14th article of faith. You guys have probably heard it a million times that we believe in meetings, we hope for meetings, we have endured many meetings,

we hope to be able to endure more meetings. If there's any justification for holding a meeting, we seek after these things. When I share that, I always say, if that's offensive, call me, we'll have these things. When I share that, I always say, if that's offensive, call me, we'll have a meeting. But it talks about why they meet, to fast and to pray and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls. I just love that little glimpse Moroni gives us of why we meet and how we strengthen each other. And it bridges into this.

I love the bridge from the Book of Mormon to the Restoration. OK, Casey, what do we do now? Do we just start at verse one? Do we read the entire Constitution here? Let me give you a little bit of a big picture idea, OK? So it's the Constitution of the Church, but the title that early church members would have used is the Articles and Covenants of the Church of Christ. It's got at least five important things

going for it. Number one, it gives us the original name of the church, which is the Church of Christ. That, again, is going directly from the Book of Mormon 3527. The Lord says the church has to be called after His name. It has the foundational events of the church. So, 3527, the Lord says the church has to be called after His name. It has the foundational events of the church. So, it's the first history of the church that's written, the earliest one. As a historian, you're going for earlier histories. It has the foundational doctrines of the church. So, think articles of faith, but in even an earlier and more distilled form. And then it has the foundational practices of the church. And the last thing is it gives Joseph Smith five titles and explains what they are. So,

if you're breaking down section 20, you can easily break it into three different sections, okay? Verses 1 through 16 is the history of the church. Verses 17 up to about verse 36 is the foundational beliefs of the church. That's kind of the proto-articles of faith. And then verse 37 to the end are the foundational practices of the church. From verse 37 to verse 84, this is where we get into baptism, how to baptize, how to confirm somebody, how to do the sacrament, how to do a baby blessing, and also the basic offices of the church, starting with elder, priest, teacher, deacon. When you look at it that way, it's not quite as daunting, and if you're teaching it, it's

easiest to kind of break it down that way. Okay, what do verses 1 through 16 say about the history of the church to this point, which this is the birthday of the church? So what led us here? Verses 17 to 36, what do we believe? What makes us different? What makes us unique? What brings us together as believers and makes us a church?

Because a church is just a group of people. And then what are we going to do? What are the practices? That's everything from verse 37 on to verse 84, which explains how things are going to go. Jared Smedley Casey, I want to throw in all three of us, and I'm sure many, many people listening love this church. Everything that I love and adore has come because of this organization. And of course, the Lord. So those of you who love this church, it's kind of fun to say,

okay, this was the beginning. I'm excited to just gaze into the past and say the beginning of something that has impacted every area of my life. I'm glad you brought that up, Hank, because maybe we should set the scene, too. This is all written down before, but like Joseph Smith said, they were told by Revelation the very day they should organize the church, April 6th, 1830. Imagine the Whitmer Farmhouse. I know both of you have been there. There's a little replica on the Whitmer Farm today that was built for the 1980 General Conference of the church, the 150th anniversary. You might even be old enough to remember that they held a session of General Conference in the recreated Whitmer Farmhouse. I don't

remember it. I was two years old, but. We may have someone here remembers. Let me look around. I was trying to like gently, John, do you remember this? I watched it live. It was a type of a thing because you just don't do it. You just don't broadcast General Conference from any place but the Tabernacle. And all of a thing because you just don't do it. You just don't broadcast general conference from any place but the tabernacle. And all of a sudden there was President Kimball with, you know, a not very good resolution TV in 1980. And there was President Kimball in the Peter Whitmer farm. I still remember all of us going, so I guess I was probably what, Hank 17 or something like that.

And I remember how cool that was to see him broadcast from there. When you see the picture from the outside, I don't know if you guys agree, it looks smaller. When you get inside, it feels a little bigger, but it still doesn't feel like it can fit as many people as were there. Yeah. You imagine 40 people're there. Pete Slauson Yeah. You imagine 40 people in there. I mean, a significant number of them, their last name was Smith or Whitmer. Pete Slauson Yeah.

Pete Slauson In fact, a couple years ago, there was an article in the Ensign where they tried to figure out who were the original six members of the church, because that's how many you actually have to have to organize a religious society in the state of New York. And there's several different lists given, like people don't always agree on who the original six members are. And by the way, we have one list that comes from David Whitmer and one that comes from Joseph Knight and one that comes from Brigham Young, who wasn't even a member of the church until a couple years later. All the lists include

three people, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and Hiram Smith. Everybody agrees that they were there. Brigham Young said that Samuel Smith, this is Joseph's little brother, and Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph's father, and this is interesting, Porter Rockwell were among the original members. Joseph Knight says, yes, Samuel, but then he says Peter Whitmer and David Whitmer were the other ones. And the last list includes John Whitmer and Christian Whitmer. Richard Lloyd Anderson, who's the person who did all this great research, said the most likely list of the six original members are Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Hiram Smith, David Whitmer, Peter

Whitmer and Samuel Smith. That's not important. There's not going to be an exam or anything on this, but it is kind of wonderful to visit that site and think of this small organization of mostly family members and that this church, which was going to grow to several million members in hundreds of countries around the world, really just started out with these six disciples of Christ. Jared Sussman I love it. Wouldn't you love to go visit, just get to, you know, look in

the window and watch this happen? Pete Slauson Yeah, be a fly on the wall and witness it. And some cool things happen. Joseph Smith receives Section 21 during the organizational meetings. He actually dictates and they record the revelation that becomes Section 21. The same day, they go down to a body of water, probably Lake Seneca, which is nearby, and they hold the first baptisms. One of the most moving passages I've ever read in the history of the church was Joseph Smith seeing his father be baptized. Like you'll recall, Joseph Smith's father

was a seeker. Like he hadn't really committed to any religion. He was a sort of universalist when he was growing up, but he just wasn't satisfied with organized religion, and here's he seeing his dad join. In fact, Joseph Smith writes, Oh my God, I have seen my father join the Church of Christ, which to me is just really powerful, really sweet. It kind of gets at the essence of what the church is, which is a place where families come together and where they experience life events that matter to them. And you guys both started out by saying, so grateful for the church. I'll say, hey, I'm grateful for the church and the experiences I've had there with my

family. And we get to see that the first day of the church is very similar to every Sunday in the church. Five years from now is going to be the bicentennial. Maybe the picture will be a little clearer than it was in 1980 if they choose to do that again. Hank, what was the line that you quoted a couple of weeks ago? Elder Holland had said it's not 1830 anymore and there aren't only six of us. Right. Yeah. I think it's the idea that I'm scared to go and I think it was a missionary or someone

who was nervous to go talk to a high ranking government official and he said, Hey, just remember it's not 1830 and there's not just six of us anymore. And I'll flip that a friend of mine, Tonalyn Ford likes to say it's always 1830 in the church somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. So somewhere out there, there's a single family home with a bunch of people crowded into it, and that's the church wherever they are. Section 20 kind

of, for me, captures the essence of what it means to be a member of the church, that you get together with people that believe the same as you, and you, with authority, participate in ordinances that help you draw closer to God. That's the core of what we're all about. And hopefully, like you said, Casey, it's an uplifting, powerful, uniting time. I've had those times. So Casey, we're going to walk through these three sections, history, beliefs, and practices. We can do history relatively quickly because that's what you've been doing the last couple weeks. But let me point out a couple highlights. Verse two, practices. Pete We can do history relatively quickly because that's what you've been doing the

last couple weeks. But let me point out a couple highlights. Verse two, commandments were given to Joseph Smith Jr. who was called of God and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ to be the first elder of this church, and Oliver Cowdery who was called of God an apostle of Jesus Christ to be the second elder of the church. That's the church hierarchy. Sustainings went much faster. Hey, we've got two sustainings to do today, the first elder and the second elder, and that's the end of the list. That's how complicated the church

was when it was first set up. There's a couple things hinted at in here that I wish I could talk to them and say, hey, were you referencing this? For instance, verse five says, after it was truly manifested under this first elder, that he had received remission of his sins. This could be the earliest account of the first vision. I know you had McLean Hewlett on a few weeks ago, and he probably talked about how the earliest accounts, the main message for Joseph was, God knows me and my sins are forgiven. This is earlier than the 1832 account or 35 or any of the others. This might be the first time Joseph tiptoes towards saying, I learned that God knows me and that He forgave me my sins. He summarizes he was entangled again in the vanities of the world. So again, he's setting

up the idea this church isn't led by perfect people. But after repenting and humbling himself sincerely through faith, God ministered unto him by a holy angel whose countenance was like lightning and whose garments were pure and white above all other whiteness. So now we move into the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and he's just giving us the basics of what we need to know, that commandments were given, verse 8, gave him power from on high by the means which were prepared to translate the Book of Mormon. And then it gives us this introduction of the Book of Mormon, which I think is perfect too.

It contains the record of a fallen people and the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and the Jews also. Nice summary of the Book of Mormon. It's to teach the gospel, but it's the record of a fallen people. And then a stated purpose for the Book of Mormon. It's to teach the gospel, but it's the record of a fallen people. And then a stated purpose for the Book of Mormon. Jump down to verse 11. Why another book of Scripture? One, to prove to the world that the Holy Scriptures are true and that God does inspire men to

call them to His holy work in this age and generation as well as in generations of old, thereby showing that He is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. There's Lord basically saying, here's why we need another book of Scripture. It's supposed to prove that the Scriptures are true. It's looking backward, and it's supposed to prove that God still speaks to people today. It's looking forward. I think just about how last night I was on Reddit or something, and somebody was talking about how, hey, maybe Jesus was just this really incredible magician

who tricked a bunch of people into thinking He was amazing. And somebody else chimed in and said, no, no, no, no, that's not what happened. Jesus was a good guy. But they added in all this stuff about Him being the Son of God and him being resurrected later on. Like, they retconned the narrative. The Book of Mormon flies in the face of all that. If the Book of Mormon is true, the stories about Jesus in the New Testament being the Son of God, miraculously healing people and dying for our sins are all true. So if you've got a record on this side of the world and a record on this side of the

world that talk about the same Savior, it's pretty hard to refute those two independent witnesses that testify that not only was Jesus a great moral teacher, but Jesus was the Son of God. I mean, if the Book of Mormon is true, Jesus flew here to America, it's pretty hard to imagine that happening by accident or being embellished in the story if the two records line up. Pete Slauson That's wonderful. And having come off a year of Come Follow Me in the Book of Mormon, you and I still have that excitement from the Book of Mormon.

Pete Slauson Yeah. Pete Slauson All that we learned, all that we saw. Pete Slauson In fact, this phrase proving to the world that the Holy Scriptures are true, I've got in my margin Mormon seven nine. Hank, do you remember me back in Book of Mormon saying why I was six afraid of seven because seven eight nine, which will only make sense in English. But look up the verse Mormon seven, eight and nine. Therefore repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus, lay hold upon the gospel of Christ,

which shall be set before you, not only in this record, but also the record which shall come unto the Gentiles from the Jews. Which record shall come from the Gentiles unto you? And Casey, what you are saying, look, I love verse 9. For behold, this, Book of Mormon, is written for the intent that you may believe that the Bible. And if ye believe that the Bible, you will believe this, the Book of Mormon, also. And if ye believe this, ye will know concerning your fathers and the marvelous works which were wrought by the power of God among them." I love that verse because that's what it just said right there.

Here's the Book of Mormon backing up the Bible, saying to your Reddit poster, not so fast, my friend, those miracles were real and Jesus is the Son of God. Pete Yeah, John, you made me think of another verse, this is in 1 Nephi 13, where Nephi's seeing kind of his big vision, the overview, you know, before you get into the story. He sees the Book of Mormon coming forth, but the way he phrases it is unique. He says, these last records, which I'm assuming includes the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Grey Price, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, that's us, shall establish the truth of the first, meaning the Bible, the record of the Jews, which are of the twelve

apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them, and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, the Savior of the world, and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved." I don't know, maybe it's an old rusty analogy, but I remember as a missionary saying, you know, if you had a sign and you had one nail in it, you can turn it any which way you want to go. But if you have two nails in it, then it points the way and it can't be adjusted. The Book of Mormon is a second witness.

Later on we'll add the Doctrine and Covenants as a third. And we continue to receive scriptural witnesses. Like that's one of the state of purposes here is that the Book of Mormon is also supposed to prove that the day of miracles is not past, that miraculous things like a new book of scripture or healings or manifestations are still things that can happen in our time. So that's a pretty great introduction to what we're all about in the latter days. And the setting that you set for us, Casey, just seems to fit the Lord of the Bible, the God of the Bible.

If you look at Abraham, this incredible figure, he was just a, just a guy, an immigrant and his wife. And then look at Mary in Nazareth. It was just out in the middle of nowhere, just some normal everyday person out there. And then here's this cabin with a farmer being the first elder. Here's this cabin with a farmer being the first elder. Yeah. The weak things the savior is going to call them in doctrine. Covenants one, nothing big, nothing flashy, not the king rolling in with an entourage and an army it's these small people who hold big and important ideas

that are really going to transform the world and cast down the corrupt systems that have ruled for thousands and thousands of years. It's beautiful. Those couple of first verses, the last ones introduce an idea of witnesses. In fact, it says this, verse 13, having so great witnesses by them shall the world be judged, even as many shall hereafter come to a knowledge of this work." Now, this could be a reference to the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, most of whom are present at the organizational meeting, but the Book of Mormon is the witness. And that explains a little bit about how the early church operated, which was, you probably noted, most people didn't talk about the first vision when they were introducing the gospel.

The early missionaries always talked about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon because the First Vision provides a great pattern for how a person can get answers to questions, but there's no proof there. It's a story that you accept or don't accept. The proof of the restoration is this book. This is the point where Joseph Smith could say, hey, I'm not just telling stories. I have a 500-page record here that was revealed to me that came forth under miraculous circumstances, and you can read it for yourself. And that, in a basic sense, is still what we do. We use the First Vision to teach people the process of Revelation, but the Book of Mormon is the witness that God has given that the latter-day work has begun again and that the church has been restored.

Jared Sillis Hey, see, correct me if I'm wrong, you know the history, but there's people in Joseph Smith's day and age having visions, reporting visions. He's different. He has this book. Pete Slauson That's actually one of the criticisms of the first vision is sometimes people will say, well, there are a lot of people saying that they had experiences with God and that they saw visions and things. And I'm saying, yeah, because God loves all His children, not just this one kid that lives in Palmyra.

And there were a lot of people, I'll say during this time, too, some notable figures like Alexander Campbell, who were trying to restore the church from the New Testament. And they all have interesting ideas And they all have interesting ideas, and they all have interesting stories, I'll say too. But none of them really have anything like the Book of Mormon. And none of them make claims as bold as saying, an angel brought us this book, and we have a new book of Scripture. And that might explain why none of them seem to endure the type of persecutions that we do. Like, nobody's making big claims like we are. Boy, it does seem like a sword that cuts asunder.

People have strong feelings about Latter-day Saints. There's not a lot of people that go, yeah, you know, whatever, because people that think seriously about our message realize that, oh, I've got to make a choice whether or not I accept this or not. Maybe you've heard that old story with Hugh B. Brown. Hugh B. Brown was the mission president in London when the Second World War was breaking out, and he was friends with a barrister there, an English lawyer. The lawyer came to him and said,

it looks like there's going to be a war. If there's a war, you're going to have to go home. So I respect you, but I don't understand your beliefs. Lay them out for me. And Hubie Brown prepared this legal brief that is just awesome. It's called profile of a prophet. Go read it. Amazing stuff where he laid out, Hey, here are several reasons why I think Joseph Smith

is a prophet and lays down a devastating legal case, but the part that's always resonated with me is that after he's done laying out this legal case, the barrister looked at him and said, do you realize that if what you're saying is true, this is the most important message since the angels announced the resurrection of Christ. And then the guy, the way Hugh B. Brown says it was, he wept and said, I would to God. Like, I don't know if he convinced the guy that it was true, but the guy at least got the point, which is this is a big deal and it's difficult to have a neutral opinion about. I use that to comfort myself when I take a beating on the internet or Reddit or something

like that, that it's supposed to produce strong feelings in people. Yeah. A third option isn't open to you. It's either what it claims to be or it's not. And John, I think you've done this before. Like, oh, there was an angel there. There was an angel? Oh yeah.

There was John the Baptist. John the Baptist? Yeah. Oh, Peter, James John the Baptist. John the Baptist? Yeah. Oh, Peter, James and John and Moses and Elijah. Right. And Elias. The audaciousness just keeps going. Yeah.

One of my favorite passages in the Doctrine and Covenants is section 128 when Joseph Smith says, and Michael detecting the devil is an angel of light on the banks of the Susquehanna and then doesn't say anything else about it. And you're like, is Michael having a rematch with Satan not a big enough deal for you for you to pause and tell the story? That's just something you mentioned in passing. Remember that, guys. But I think at that point, Joseph Smith was, the momentous was mundane to him, that the

extraordinary was kind of, yeah, we've had some fun times, haven't we? Jared And we just walk around with this knowledge every day, like it's, yeah, how is this news? Yeah. Pete Maybe occasionally we need to pause and recognize it and how significant it is. Jared I like that. Pete And then the history section concludes if we jump down to verse 16, the Lord God has spoken it and we the elders of the church, and remember there's only two elders, there's

Joseph and Oliver, but he's probably making reference to the fact that a lot of the people at this meeting are going to become leaders and a lot of the people at this meeting are witnesses of the Book of Mormon. We have heard and bear witness to the words of the glorious majesty on high, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. A reference probably to the witness experiences and that the second elder, Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith had not only seen the plates, but they'd heard God testify that the book was true, And now they feel this obligation to share what they've learned. This is the earliest history of the church. It's a great little, here's where we come from, here's our mission statement, here's

what we do. Here's why we think there needs to be a new church and a new scripture. Here's what we're all about. And yet again, it shows Joseph Smith in an interesting light. He was again entangled in the vanities of the world. This beginning of the Doctrine and Covenants, it's not a great look for Joseph, right? Section three, section 10, why are you doing all these things wrong? Then again, here he's entangled in the bandages of the world. This isn't someone who is trying to come off as, I am your liaison with God. Yeah. Let's remind everyone of that and let's canonize it.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's canonize my biggest mistake and put it at the first of the book. I think it was the Lord putting in our face the idea of infallibility is not going to fly in this church. These are fallible people. But it is a little hard on Joseph. I mean, I don't get up before my classes and say, hi, I'm your instructor. And I was kind of a bad kid in high school or something like that. But Joseph has all of his youthful foibles kind of put out there and then his first stumbles as a prophet. It is a message that we have to have repeated again and again because so often well-meaning but maybe misguided Latter-day Saints invest too much in the perfection of the leaders

of the church. And that's not what we believe. We believe in flawed, weak people that are made extraordinary through Jesus Christ. That's wonderful. I remember once my mother-in-law, she wasn't a very tall woman, she was 5'1", 5''. She said, I met a prophet once and I shook his hand and sadly he just looked right over my head. I was just too short.

And I was looking up at him, but he didn't look down at me. And she said, I walked away from that going, oh, I wish I could have talked to him longer. And then she said, you know, I just love Prophet. I just liked her saying, yeah, I met him. I wish he would have noticed me, but he's human and he's still the Prophet. It was just a little testimony of, yeah, they're not perfect. Because I think some might go into a, I'm going to meet a prophet and he's going to call me by name and tell me where I served my mission and probably give me a patriarchal blessing right there.

Right on the spot. Yeah. It was just wonderful to see her. She didn't have some sort of grand idea that he's perfect. Yeah. My mission president told this story once where an apostle came and stayed in their home, and he didn't ever say who the apostle was, but he said he was getting ready to go to bed and he saw the guy kneel down and he just kind of held back and said,

oh, I'm going to get to hear an apostle pray to the Lord. So, he held back and he heard the apostle go, Father in heaven, I am so tired. I'm going to talk to you in the morning in the name of Jesus Christ. And for him, it was a wonderful humanizing moment to realize, oh, these people get tired. We don't want to oversell. They're of good qualities, but we also don't want to undersell that they are really good. All right, Casey, what do we do next? The next part of the revelation is the basic beliefs of the Church of Christ.

So it's basically verses 17 to 36. This would be a great place to point a person to, to say, hey, here's what Latter-day Saints are all about. In fact, some stuff that we still emphasize from time to time, and some of this shouldn't be surprising, verse 17, there is a God in heaven who's infinite and eternal from everlasting to everlasting, the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth. Verse 18, he created man, male and female, after his own image, and in his own likeness created he them and gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him. We've got

creation. Is this sounding like a familiar pattern? Verse 20, by transgression of these holy laws, man became sensual and devilish and became fall men. Creation, fall, and you probably know what the next thing is going to come. Wherefore the Almighty God gave His only begotten Son as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of Him. So creation, fall, atonement. Here's the basic beliefs of the church.

I can point out a couple little interesting things here. It seems like the Book of Mormon is already affecting them. And I don't want to over claim here, but in verse 20, it's interesting that they don't use the word sin. They use the word transgression. And I'm not claiming that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had done a deep dive into 2nd Nephi 2 at this point or anything more than just read it, but they're already kind of softening the language a little bit to where there's a difference between a transgression

and a sin. I might be wrong here. They could be synonyms, but it does seem like they're starting to inch towards this idea of the fall being something that was progressive. Yes, it caused us to fall and brought death into the world, but it was part of the plan, which is what the Book of Mormon basically puts forward. Jared If I'm a new member of the church, is the church's stance on the fall of Adam and Eve different than, especially in Joseph's

day? Is that different than what people taught? Pete Yes. If we're saying in Joseph's day, and that includes the introduction of the temple ordinances, and I hope I'm not going too far, but spoiler alert everybody, creation, fall, and atonement are what are discussed in the temple ordinances. It does seem to be introducing this more positivistic view of the fall. I mean, just the simple phrase in the Book of Mormon that Adam fell, that men might be,

and men are that they might have joy, immediately takes this from being an original sin that really offended God and completely threw off God's plans and designs to something that, no, God intended to happen and that God turned into a good thing and that eventually became a way for us to experience good and evil, but learn from that, overcome it, and come back to God knowing good from evil, if that makes sense. This is our first tiptoe. Section 29 is going to pick up on this a little bit, but I will say, yeah, based on the temple endowment, which is kind of the last iteration of Joseph Smith's exploration of the fall,

I can't get into what the temple says, and I won't, but it does present a much more positive view of the fall and its purpose as being something. And it does stuff like take Adam and Eve who messed up God's plan and caused each of us to experience sorrow to people who had to experience a no joy and sorrow in order to be whole and complete. Maybe I'm reading too much into the use of the word transgression, but it is interesting that if you review church leaders, they've always kind of hewed away from saying original sin, which is what most Christians would say and say transgression. There is a difference between a transgression and a sin, though sometimes they're used interchangeably.

Let me tell a story. When this comes up in my class and someone says, what's the difference between transgression and sin? My wife was pregnant. She woke me up in the middle and I said, my water broke. I got her in the car and it was 3 a.m. and I drove to the hospital and I was going on a road where I knew it was 35 going about 85. Was the action that I took a sin or was it a transgression? On the one hand, I knew what the speed limit was.

I knew that it might be a little dangerous, but I feel like the law that thou shalt not go faster than 35 miles per hour is less important than the thou shalt not let thy wife die while she is in labor with thine child. Adam and Eve acted out of necessity and it wasn't necessarily against God's plan. And they're sort of hinting at that here, but later people will get into the Book of Mormon and realize the texts like 2nd Nephi 2 really changed the game. If you have that different perspective on who Adam and Eve were, you have a different perspective on humanity.

Now this does say, and the Book of Mormon does have other passages that say man became sensual and devilish and became fallen. It doesn't shy away from the introduction of evil into the world, but it's again hinting that maybe a higher purpose for the fall. I really like that. There may be some out there in the history of Christianity that taught, you know, a fortunate fall, but not many. This goes against the mainstream of Joseph's day and even today.

Yeah, and that's okay. It's an interesting discussion to have with people. I remember talking with people as a missionary saying, well, God's original plan failed, so He came up with a backup plan. And that just doesn't mesh with my theology. I think that all of it was part of the plan from the beginning, but that God couldn't just shove us out of His presence. We had to make a choice. And that's how we deal with and introduce a number of complex questions, like why is there evil? Why do bad things happen in this life? Why is there sorrow and death? It's just so beautifully presented in our theology to say that, yeah, these things are bad,

but they're necessary for us to know the opposites, for us to experience opposition. It shows the impact of the Book of Mormon on their thinking, their theology. Jared I think you're right. Also, John, you remember when Ammon and Aaron both teach the Lamanites, this is how they do it. Creation, fall, atonement. John Yeah, this is the Nephite plan of salvation. They don't draw the circles and lines. They draw the bridge, which has three pillars, the creation of the earth, the fall of Adam and Eve, and the atonement of Jesus Christ.

And again, here in our constitution, here's what we believe. God created us in His image. We fell, but there was a way for us to be saved. Verse 24, He gave His only begotten Son. Jared Suellenthal I like the phrase that you used, Hank, of fortunate fall. Our friend and colleague, Brad Wilcox, remember that really quotable thing he said? The atonement was not plan B, which God came up with to clean up the mess Adam and Eve

made of the world. But it was plan A. He referenced Mosiah 4-6. And I've noticed this ever since Brad pointed that out, how often in the Book of Mormon when it says this is Mosiah 4-6, so King Benjamin, and also the atonement, which has been prepared from the foundation of the world. In other words, that was always the plan. It really does impact your worldview, right? If you view the progenitors of the human race to be incredibly dumb, or

if you view them as taking an action that was necessary for them to know good from evil, to know love and also no loss. I'm not trying to downplay the unpleasant aspects of life. We all experience those, but there's a lot of joy to be found in life too. And if I walked around thinking this was all just a big mistake, that would affect my worldview a little bit. I'd be a little bit more negative. At the same time, we've got to be careful that the scriptures say, even this scripture, that man became sensual and devilish, and then all are fallen and come short. It was a fall downward, but it was a fall forward.

Might be the best way to cause progress. And I'm glad you brought that up. You're referencing Doctrine Covenants 138, which is the grand finale where everybody shows up. It's the Avengers end game. And it is really comforting that the first two people that Joseph F. Smith describes being in paradise are Adam and our glorious mother Eve. And I also think of that passage in Moses 5 where Eve finally has the atonement explained to her and says, were it not for our transgression, we never would have known seed and the joy that she ties those two things directly. I don't know exactly when that little episode with the angel happened. It was probably before she knew what it was like to lose a child, which she does eventually

experience. But just the idea that they belonged together and that the fall was going to help them. There's this beautiful book by Mark Twain called The Diary of Adam and Eve. And most of it's just jokes about men and women. But there's a beautiful scene at the end where Adam is watching his children and Eve has passed away, and Adam thinks to himself, the truth was there never was a choice because wherever Eve was, that was Eden. Boy, that captures better than anything our view of the fall, that they weren't choosing to sin against God. they were choosing each other.

They were choosing to experience what it really was to know love. That's what the Book of Mormon brings up is that in the garden there was total equilibrium. There was no joy nor sorrow. And so we have to conclude, I don't know if they knew love. There's nothing as joyful and as sorrowful as being in love with somebody and having to process those emotions. Boy, I love what the Book of Mormon brings to the fall. Jared And you did tell us, Section 20 does pull. Pete Yeah. This is the Reader's Digest Book of Mormon, I guess you'd say.

Let's condense the Book of Mormon down to 84 verses. And it even has that little introduction, here's where it came from, here's what it teaches, here's what you got to do now, get baptized. Jared Well, let's keep going, Casey. What's next? Pete A summary of Jesus Christ's mission, which Joseph Smith is going to quote later on. You'll notice in verse 23, he says, He was crucified, died, and rose again the third

day and ascended into heaven to sit down on the right hand of the Father to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father." This is going to get quoted by Joseph Smith again, and you hear it quoted again and again and again, sometimes three or four times in a general conference. In 1838, Joseph Smith, he did like a Q&A in the Elder's Journal, What do Latter-day Saints believe? This is the statement that he makes. He's quoting section 20, which is pulling from the Book of Mormon.

He said, the fundamental principle of our religion are the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day and ascended into heaven. And all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages. When Joseph Smith's mind, if the teachings of the church are like a tree, the trunk of the tree is that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again the third day and ascended into heaven. Everything else, even major things like temple work is a big branch and missionary work, and then there's little branches like word socials and green-yellow

salad and stuff like that. But we ought to follow his example and maybe use the Doctrine and Covenants 20 as a text where, hey, what do you guys believe? Well, fundamental to our religion is this idea that Jesus died, was buried and rose again the third day. He's sticking with the basic message here too. And sometimes we go off on little theological tangents, which can be really fun and interesting, but we need to continually circle back to these ideas of, hey, this is really why we meet together and why we serve and why we venerate Jesus because of what he did for us.

Pete Yeah. When someone says, I have a lesson coming up, I don't know what to teach, what should I teach? Well, if you don't know what to teach, why don't you talk about the Savior, the begotten Son of God, that He suffered temptations, He was crucified, died, rose again on the third day. That is why we do everything we do. When He says appendages, Casey, wouldn't you also say then that they only have their power from that? The branch has no power of itself. Yeah, everything has meaning because of that. The church is just a social club, really, if we don't have the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, if we don't have the Savior as the center of our worship. And that's not a terrible reason to go to church every Sunday. I like the people in my ward, and're my friends and I'm happy to see

them. But it's those few moments when we recognize what Jesus did for us, the broken bread and the water that represents His blood. I think, John, you wrote a book that says, hey, why are we doing this? What's the core? Yeah, it's that little moment when we come together to recognize Jesus died, was buried, and rose again the third day. Jared So, if you're going to have family night, you don't know what to talk about. Jared Yeah, there's an idea. Pete Yeah. Pete It's a good story.

Yeah, it's a gripping narrative. And now he's going to expand. And a lot of the basic belief section is talking about, you go to verse 27, the gifts and callings of God of the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts are going to be part of our teaching. In verse 28, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite, eternal, without end, which the Book of Mormon teaches that idea. We just have to nuance what we mean by them being one God. And then getting into the basic principles of the gospel, verse 29, all men must repent

and believe in the name of Jesus Christ and worship the Father in His name and endure in faith on His name to the end, but they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. Then the next two verses are the two verses that I kind of like hone in on because this is where they start to say a little bit about what they believe about the atonement and how it works. And I remember an old teacher of mine, Craig Ostler, talking about how understanding the gospel is sometimes understanding the terms that we use. There's two terms here used in verse 30 and verse 31 that could be misunderstood, and once you understand them, it does expand a little bit about how Latter-day Saints view the Atonement. We know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just

and true. And we know also that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, mind, and strength. And I would say that a lot of our discussion with other churches, especially Protestant and Evangelical friends, centers around this idea of grace, how grace works, what we believe about grace. And these two verses have led to me having a number of wonderful conversations with my friends of other faiths about the difference between justification and the difference between sanctification. Craig Osler, I remember in his

class actually opening up an 1828 dictionary. That's when Noah Webster published the first dictionary of the English language and saying, well, okay, I don't know if this is exact, but hey, here's how maybe Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery thought of justification and sanctification. Here's the definition. Justification, according to an 1828 dictionary, in theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment, or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous on account of the atonement of Christ. Just like it says here, justification comes through grace.

This is a place where we agree with all of Christianity that it's not us that save us. We do a terrible job explaining this to people, not just non-members, but I think to our own children, we do a terrible job explaining this idea. Let me share an example. I'm a missionary in southern Florida. We knock on this guy's door. The guy opens the door and says, guys, I'm a Lutheran minister. I don't think you want to talk to me. And I was, you know, pretty fiery and I stuck my foot in the door and said, actually, you're exactly the kind of person that we want to talk to. And the guy goes, okay, tell me if you had to stand before God and justify why you deserve to go to the celestial

kingdom or whatever you guys believe in, why you're justified to be there. And I was 19 and very young and kind of dumb. And I remember saying, I would say to him, I've done everything that you've asked me to do. I hope that I'm worthy to enter your presence. And the guy looked at me and he said, and that's what's wrong with Mormons. You think you're going to save yourselves. And he closed the door. I was pretty devastated because I gave a really poor answer. Jared Sussman You didn't mention Jesus, right? Pete Slauson I never said Jesus, right? Why do you deserve to be here? I never brought up Jesus Christ. I never said the words grace. I never mentioned the atonement, like it was a terrible answer,

objectively. It caused me to do a lot of reflection and study, and I'd answer that question completely differently today. But how many of our kids do get that idea that like there's some kind of eternal scoreboard and you're just trying to get enough points so that you're justified in going to heaven, that's really scary. Our friends of different faiths, especially evangelicals, are correct in saying that we don't save ourselves. We don't. We're justified through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, which is just and true. If we examine those words, justification, according to the definition we read, is a pardon.

Boy, there's a lot of discussions about pardons back and forth in our current discourse. But a pardon fundamentally isn't a person saying, this person isn't guilty of what they've done. It's sometimes you saying, yeah, they're guilty, but we're just not going to punish them for it. We're going to set aside this. A president pardons somebody. It's not us saying they're innocent to set aside this. A president pardon somebody. It's not us saying they're innocent. It could be us saying they're guilty. Like the example

I use in class is Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon and president Ford wasn't trying to say Richard Nixon didn't do the things that he did. His justification was, I think this would put the country through too many problems, and so I'm just going to pardon him. He's lost the presidency. If that's enough, we're going to move on. Justification means that Jesus Christ covers you for your sins, and it's not anything that you earn.

It means that you're square with the law of justice. In fact, that's what the root of the word is. When we think of justice, we think of that statue with the root of the word is. When we think of justice, we think of that statue with the sword and the scales and she's blindfolded. It's just basically us saying, no, you're never going to be righteous enough to earn your way into heaven. Please don't think that. You're justified through Jesus Christ. You are going to be there because of what Jesus Christ did and not because of anything you did. That attitude does raise the question of, well, then why do we keep the commandments? Why don't we just accept Jesus Christ as our

Savior and then move on? I mean, you've all seen those little comic books they used to put around where you'd sign at the end your name and you would have accepted Jesus Christ and His grace and you're saved. And full disclosure, I did sign one of those ones just to make sure I'm covered. Jared Suellentrop Get your bases covered. Pete Slauson I got my bases covered, right? If this whole restoration doesn't work out, I'm good with that particular church that left that comic book and that Denny's. Again, it raises the question of do you just sign the paper and

then that's the end of your life? What's the role and why was Jesus so insistent on righteousness and sincerity and keeping the commandments? And that's where verse 31 comes in. We know also that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, true to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. We're saved by grace, but to borrow from our friend Brad Wilcox, are we changed by grace? A justification means you're saved, you're going to be okay no matter what happens. Sanctification means did we actually change something? Like going back to my 1830 dictionary, in that dictionary, sanctification is defined as the act of making holy.

In an evangelical sense, it's the act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified and alienated from sin and the world and exalted to a supreme love of God. We're saved. We don't have to worry about going to hell. But the question is, when we get to heaven, are we going to be the kind of people that feel comfortable and belong there? And that's where sanctification comes into play. Once you have accepted Christ as your Savior, have you actually changed to where it has made a difference to you. Sometimes when I'm questioned about the same subject, I'll say, I don't live the gospel so I can get into the celestial kingdom.

I live the gospel so I'll choose the celestial kingdom when it is offered to me. Then I'll say, that's what I truly want. That's where I want to be. And Casey, if we continually teach our children and grandchildren about some sort of celestial scoreboard, it's defeating, it comes from a place of fear, I think. Yeah.

And it's caused a lot of problems. Like one word that I don't think anybody knew 20 years ago is scrupulosity. It's the idea that some people almost get a religious OCD, where they feel like if they don't say prayers three times a day, or they fall asleep while they're reading their scriptures, that they're gonna get in trouble with God, that they have to check every single little box. And these verses, by introducing the terms justification and sanctification, do free us up a little bit to the point to where we have to get across the idea that we're not earning our way into heaven. We're learning what it's like to be in heaven. We're trying

to become celestial. Both of you are probably familiar with Stephen Robinson. He's a wonderful theologian. He wrote an amazing book that everybody should read called Believing Christ. He talks about how he was trained at a Baptist seminary. That's where he did his graduate work. And then he came to BYU. He noticed at BYU that a lot of students believed in this model of grace where you do everything you can and then grace carries you the rest of the way. We're saved by grace after all we can do.

He realized that was causing them to have major anxiety over, am I doing enough? Like he even realized that his own wife, he said his wife came home one day and she was one of those ladies that had like the big giant church binder and she chucked her binder down and started crying and said, I can't do this. And like, this is too much. I'm supposed to be a perfect wife and a perfect mother and have a church job. And I it's way too much. And I think she said something like, I'll just settle for the T last.

Yeah. Like I'm just not celestial material. Yeah. And he realized that even a person as great as his wife was fundamentally didn't get it. Like, you don't have to be perfect. What you do is you have to be sincere. And sanctification is just us basically saying, yeah, I accept your grace and that I'm going to be saved because of what Jesus did, but I'm going to try and be a better person.

I'm going to try and live the commandments. But there's no scoreboard or timer or anything like that. There's just you and the Savior and you saying, I'm sincerely trying the best that I can. Once I came to understand that, it freed me up a lot to say, hey, if I fall asleep before I say a prayer at night or if I stub my toe and I let loose a word that I shouldn't have used, it doesn't take off my righteousness points. There's no such thing as righteousness points. There's just you and the Savior and the level of sincerity that you have. Deepchad Christofferson gave this awesome talk where he likened the whole thing to Les Miserables.

If you're familiar with that, at the first of the play, Jean Valjean robs this priest, he steals from the priest, he gets caught and gets dragged back. When the cops are basically saying, this guy robbed you, didn't he? The priest says, no, actually, I gave him these candlesticks, too. And at that point, the cops have to let him go. And Jean Valjean is like, why did you do that? And the priest explains, because I want to give you a chance. That's justification. Jean Valjean is still the sort of guy that steals from priests. But at this point, he's been given a new lease on life. He's not going to be punished for his

past transgressions. And then he goes out and he tries to live a life that matches what that priest did for him. And then the way Elder Christofferson describes at the end of the play, John Beljan sees all the people that he's helped and all the lives that he's affected, and that's sanctification. That is, okay, he's changed. He's not the sort of person that robs priests anymore. When my students come in a lot of times, and a really common question, especially when I taught high school seminary, was how do I know if I've repented? Sometimes we do get into a little bit of trouble with our checklist model.

You have to realize you've committed the sin, you have to confess the sin, you have to make restitution for the sin and then you don't do the sin again. And if that gets you to where you need to be, awesome. I just think the problem is that it's sort of missing the point of the whole thing. Like I had a colleague at BYU who said he was in a bishopric and this girl came up to him before sacrament meetings started and said, Hey, can I talk to you Bishop? He goes, okay, do we need to go in my office? She's like, no, we can do this right here.

Last night I broke the law of chastity and he said, we need to have a conversation about this. And she goes, no, I realized what I'd done was wrong. I apologize to the person I'm confessing to you and I'm not going to do it again. We're good, right? That's still us trying to do justification. The truth is, is the real question that you should be asking is, well, am I the sort of person that would do that again? Have I changed into the sort of person who wouldn't commit that sin? This is another idea in the Book of Mormon. When

King Benjamin's people accept Christ, they don't say, hey, we're never going to sin again. They say, we don't have any desire to commit sin. And that seems to be what we're aiming for here. It's not a perfect sinless life. That's just not possible. And it's not necessary. Jesus Christ has paid the price for our sins, but a sincere life where we strive and don't deliberately sin or at least try to get to that point where

we don't have the desires to sin anymore. I really like that. John, another talk. Jesus knows I'm Christian. I remember this because you had a conversation with a man on an airplane who said, you're not a Christian. Yeah. He said, you guys believe in the Jesus of the gaps. The way my mind works, I thought,

I don't know where Jesus shopped. I don't think it was the gap. He was talking about this very thing. You think you're going to do all this and then he's going to make up the difference. He's going to make up the gap in the end. I thought, I know where he gets that. That's after all we can do. Thankfully, there's been a lot of really helpful discussion and teaching about that, what Nephi meant there. You got to read the next verse too. After that, I went home, I took out my triple and I found every reference to merits. I would recommend anybody do this who wants to really have a wonderful experience about this idea. And every time I found a verse about meriting salvation, it was never our merits. It was always through the merits and mercy and grace

of Christ. And it was such a cool thing to say, there's no gap. I got no chance except for the grace of Christ and his merits. It was really cool to go through every verse. And what was a little bit astonishing, or as the Bokumoran might say, exceedingly astonishing about it, was that the seven different references were from seven different characters in the Bokumoran. Pretty cool.

So it was consistently and broadly taught. Coming up in part two of this episode. Elder Merrill, and I found this in his journal, went to a meeting in Salt Lake Temple. This was in, I believe, 1943. He was ushered into the room and quickly told by a member of the First Presidency that Richard Lyman had committed a really serious transgression, that they were considering his membership in the church.