Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 23-26 : Dr. Lisa Tait Part II

Episode Date: March 8, 2021

Part II is a deep dive into Emma Hale Smith's personality, abilities, and role in establishing the early Church. Emma is educated, adept, and gifted. She completes Joseph and enables him to accomplish the Lord's work. We learn how Emma was consistently supported and encouraged by Lucy Mack Smith, who reminds us that Emma constantly and consistently served those around her. See a new side of Emma Hale Smith with our expert, Dr. Lisa Olsen Tait, as well as reviewing her better-known accomplishments of creating a hymnal, acting as scribe, and lending her abilities to establishing the Church in this dispensation.Show notes available at www.followhim.co

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Right now we come to one of the most often quoted sections, section 25 about Emma Smith. And I'm excited, really excited here from Lisa because this is like here area. What do we know about Emma and her childhood and her eventually marrying Joseph. And what do you suppose these first few years of their marriage have been like? We just love to hear what you know about this Lisa and how you can help us understand this. Yeah.

Emma is someone that I find that members of the church really want to know about and want to know more about. She was just a little bit older than Joseph. She's born in 1804. Her parents are Isaac and Elizabeth Hale. She grows up in pretty comfortable circumstances. Her family's quite prosperous here in this Susquehanna Valley in the Harmony, Pennsylvania area. Her father made a comfortable living in shipping meat and other merchandise down river to Philadelphia and Baltimore. I think he was known as quite

a prolific hunter. You know, big game was was a way of procuring meat at the time. They lived in a fashionable frame home that was sometimes called a mansion in the area and lived in fine circumstances. So Emma received a really good education for her time and place. She liked to ride horses, she was good at canoeing apparently. And she was very strong, very independent. She was a tall woman. I think about five foot nine, and very tall and strong and sturdy. Her family evidently was not particularly religious for some time, but she was baptized into the congregational church as a baby, as a child. And then there were, you know, as was the case in so many places in the United States in the early 19th century, there were schisms and splits and preachers who come through and religious revivals and so forth and at one point

Methodists circuit writers the the preachers the Methodist preachers came into the valley and Emma as a fairly young child. I don't I don't know the exact age maybe about seven years old She finds religion so to to speak, she becomes converted, and she becomes a member of a class in the Methodist Episcopal Church. And so in these classes, she would have learned to read the scriptures, to receive instruction about the gospel. And then in 1812, so what she would have been about eight years old, a Methodist circuit writer came through harmony and was encouraging young people to go into the woods and pray to have spiritual

experiences. And a local hunter reported that he found people in the woods praying all the time when he was out trying to hunt. And in fact, there's a story told that at one point, Emma's father found her praying for him, that she was praying for the welfare of her father's soul, and that that really impressed him and brought him to have some kind of religious faith of his own. So that's a little bit about

Emma's early life. She was well-educated, she was very smart, she was very strong, she was an independent, I was going to say independent-minded, that had a certain meaning in the 19th century, but she was an independent woman, independent thinker. And we kind of see that in her relationship with Joseph Smith, because he comes into the area as a young man with Josiah Stowell on this expedition to try to dig up the Spanish treasure. That stole is just convinced is there for the finding. And Joseph ends up boarding with the Hale family

when he is working for Stole. Now Isaac Hale will later write that Joseph Smith followed a business of which he could not approve. And this was one of the reasons that he says he didn't take a shine to Joseph Smith, so to speak. There is some indication that maybe Hale himself had thought about looking for that Spanish treasure. So, I don't know about that. So when Emma is 21 years old,

this young man named Joseph Smith comes into the neighborhood and boards with her family. He's working for Josiah Stoll digging for the treasure. And apparently Joseph is smitten with Emma immediately. He's really just head over heels for her. And apparently she comes to have some feelings for him as well, even though her family is not at all in favor of this relationship. Again, she's comes from a respectable, prosperous family and no doubt they felt she could have done a lot better than this kind of itinerant treasure seeker and

and farmhand than Joseph Smith was who again also was not very well educated. The words bitterly opposed have been used to describe how her family felt about Joseph. But you know it's the one of the oldest stories in the book, right? The true love will prevail and Stowe actually facilitates Joseph and Emma meeting. And so does Joseph Knight. He lets Joseph borrow his sleigh to go and see his girl as he puts it. Joseph and Emma are courting each other, or I guess Joseph is courting Emma. As best as he can, he's not in harmony anymore. I think he's up in Colesville working for Joseph Knight or for Mr. Stoll. I can't remember the details in the moment, but Emma later

tells her son, she says, I was visiting at Mr. Stowels and saw your father there. So apparently they would meet each other up at Josiah Stowels place since her parents didn't approve. She says, I had no intention of marrying when I left home. But during my visit at Mr. Stowels, your father visited me there. My folks were bitterly opposed to him and being important by your father. Now, important is a big word that means begged. Being begged by your father, cited by Mr. Stowell, who urged me to marry him, and preferring to marry him than to any other man I knew I consented. We went to

Squire Tarrables and were married. So in other words, they loapt. And this is a, you know, a time-honored practice of young people who are in love and their parents don't, don't approve. So they were married in January of 1827. And they went from there to go and live with Joseph's parents up in Manchester, in the Palmyra area, in New York. And that's where they were then that fall when Joseph finally receives the plates in September. And of course, it's Emma who goes with him on that occasion. I love this so far. It seems that Joseph Smith, in my studies, he just was not complete without her. That the moment she comes into his life, he not only becomes spiritually ready for the plates, he just kind of grows up. Some of the things that Moroni has been begging him to do for the last four years, he does

with Emma in his life. And the importuning part reminded me so much of my own courtship, right? That's the begging part. The, the, please, please, I know this might not look good to you, but it looks amazing to me. Yeah. Well, even throughout their throughout their lives we we have a few letters between Joseph and Emma and More we have more that he wrote to her than that she wrote to him but In those letters his expressions of love and affection and longing for Emma are consistent and really beautiful. He writes to her for example, when he is in Liberty jail, he says, if you want to know how

much I want to see you examine your feelings, how much you want to see me, I would gladly walk from here to you barefoot and bareheaded to see you and think it a great pleasure and never counted toil. So throughout their marriage, they definitely loved each other. In fact, in this same interview where she talks about their courtship, she tells her son that she and Joseph tells her son that she and Joseph got along really well, that they didn't quarrel. He knew that I wished for nothing but what was right, and as he wished for nothing else,

we did not disagree. He usually gave some heed to what I had to say, she says. And it was quite a grievous thing to many that I had any influence with him. So they definitely seemed to have had a partnership and maybe even to a degree that wasn't typical for a marriage in that period where he gave heed to Emma's opinions and advice and feelings in a way that maybe wasn't expected for men in a marriage in that time. No. She, at this time, like you said, she is baptized in July.

Is that where this revelation comes from? Is kind of post-baptism? Yeah, she's actually, she's baptized in June at the very end of June, and it's that occasion where someone's broken up the dam and then they have to redam the stream and then before she can be confirmed the Joseph is arrested so it's been a really intense experience for her just to get baptized and she's still By the time they go back to Harmony where this revelation comes she has not been confirmed yet and

Hasn't received the gift of the Holy Ghost and that figures into the revelation as well. And so this, we wish we knew more about the reasons for this revelation. Like where did this come from? What was the, was there a question that was asked? Was there some kind of perceived need that led Joseph to inquire? We just don't know. We don't know what the background was for this revelation, but it is such a personal

and beautiful response by the Lord to Emma's thoughts and feelings and needs into her potential and her gifts and her future. Yeah. And I love this section. One, just because of what it teaches and also that the Lord is no different with his daughters than his sons. He sounds the same.

He doesn't say, well, hi Emma. Yes. Thanks for doing your work cake You know is there a boy there? I can talk to you He is really I mean this is he has a lot in store for her and He speaks the same to them and he even says all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom Beautiful. Yeah, and he had dressed us as her as my daughter, which he'll do with Joseph, right? My son, he'll say that many times in the revelations, you know, there may be another layer here because Emma was so estranged from her own father that the Lord is is reminding her, your my daughter, whatever your earthly relationships are, you are mine.

Yeah. I was just thinking as you were giving us Emma's background, how different her life would have been? Had she not married Joseph Smith? She stays on the farm. She inherits probably this this wealth and Mary's well. Yeah. And here she is. I have a quote from her mother-in-law, quote, I have never seen a woman in my life who would endure every species of fatigue and hardship from month to month and from year to year with that unflinching courage, zeal and patience, which Emma has ever done. She has been tossed upon the ocean of uncertainty. She has breasted the storms of persecution and buffeted the rage of men and devils, which would have borne down almost any other woman. I wish my mother-in-law would say such wonderful things about me. That is beautiful. This attribute to her.

I read that too and I thought, this is pretty cool. This is a mother-in-law talking about her daughter-in-law. And I loved how supportive and I was thinking about this baptism where people come and interrupt it. I mean, it sounds like it's malicious. It's what they're trying to do. And I always have thought we've put such emphasis recently in recent years on teaching the Savior's way. And when I read the Bible, when the Savior was teaching, He had opposition there so many times. And I'm thinking, trying to have a baptism

and make a beautiful memory and what do you have there? People opposing it and getting loud and obnoxious. And here's Lucy saying, Hey, Emma, I'm flinching doing this. I loved that. I've read that too, Hank. And I really liked that that made me feel like they must have been a friendship there. Maybe Lisa can speak to that of Lucy and Emma. Yeah, I for sure Lucy makes that statement in her history that she dictates in about 1845 I think in the in the year or two after the death of Joseph and Hiram. And so I think we should note that by that time

there is already some bitterness towards Emma, there's already some bad feelings. And so this statement that Lucy makes is meant to defend Emma, I think, within that context. Lucy does live with Emma in her last years, even after the Saints have gone west. And so Emma takes care of Lucy in her old age, which is a pattern for Emma throughout her life.

She's always taking people in, she's always taking care of people to the extent that she ever has resources to share. She's sharing them. In in Kirtland, she and Elizabeth Ann Whitney put on a feast, a feast for the poor, where they made all kinds of food and invited those who were needy to come and partake and have plenty to eat. So that's just one example of many

that we could multiply of how Emma was such a generous. And I think, if you could have talked to the saints in Na'avu about her, that's what they would have said, is that she was a great help to Joseph and she was a great help to the saints in her unflinching, unfailing attempts to sucker those who needed it and to provide help to those who were in need. I mean, she crosses the frozen river to get from Missouri back into Illinois. I've read about the, when they first settled Navu and it was commerce Illinois and everyone got so sick with the malaria that her home basically became a hospital. She's stepping over people inside the house and outside the house. Yeah. Yeah. Those were the circumstances and that was not at all unusual for her. What do you see, Lisa, that we could use today from the Lord's message to Emma? Well, we could go through every verse in this, in this revelation, there's something,

something rich in every verse. And before I apply it to myself, I'm always, I always want to know how it, what it meant for the person who's receiving it at the time. The Lord tells her, I'll preserve thy life. We don't know how threatened she felt at various times, but there were certainly other times in her life when she could have felt that her life was in danger. In fact, let me read to you from the letter that she writes to Joseph, he's in Liberty Jail at this point and she has had to make this flight from Missouri in the middle of winter with her four little children. She says, the walls, bars and bolts rolling rivers, running

streams, rising hills, sinking valleys, and spreading prairies that separate us, and the cruel injustice that first cast you into prison and still holds you there, with many other considerations, places my feelings far beyond description. No one but God knows the reflections of my mind and the feelings of my heart when I left our house and home An almost all of everything that we possessed accepting our little children and took my journey out of the state of Missouri Leaving you shut up in that lonesome prison But the reflection is more than human nature ought to bear and if God does not record our sufferings and avenge our rungs on them that are guilty

I shall be sadly mistaken And if God does not record our sufferings and avenge our wrongs on them that are guilty, I shall be sadly mistaken." And then she concludes, I mean, that's such a powerful expression of what she's been through and of the, she says, her feelings are beyond description. She can't even give words to what she's feeling. But then she concludes and says, I shall live and am yet willing to suffer more if it is the will of kind heaven that I should for your sake. And that actually is just really poignant to me

because we know that she has yet to suffer a lot more, even at the moment that that letter is written. So I will preserve thy life, the Lord tells her. And that must have been a promise that she clung to. He goes on to call her an elect lady. Now, here's another example of biblical language, this comes from the New Testament, and this will become important in Na'avu, which we'll talk about here in just a minute. He says, murmur not because of the things which thou hast not seen, for they are withheld from the end from the world, which is wisdom and me in a time to come.

So when we think about, you know, she's there by Joseph's side as so many of these things are happening. And yet, if we think about what has she not seen, she hasn't seen the angels. She hasn't seen the plates in the way that the witnesses and some of the other people did. She definitely saw them in the sense that she talks about how they were lying on the table, covered with a cloth in the same room where she was working and she wrestled the edges of them and moved

them from place to place as she needed to in order to do her work. But she has not violated what she understands to be this commandment that they're not to be shown to anyone. And she affirms that to her son in this interview at the end of her life that no, she never saw them. So there are many things that she hasn't seen at this point and the Lord is telling her, I know that that may be difficult for you.

The office of thy calling shall be for a comfort and to my servant Joseph with consoling words in the spirit of meat-ness. And then it talks about her being a scribe for him when Oliver Cowdry needs to go and do other business. And we know, of course, she had already served as a scribe during the translation of the book of Mormon. There were times when she wrote for Joseph.

And we do have her handwriting on some of the pages of the Bible translation, so we know that she did fulfill this, this calling of being a scribe for Joseph Smith. And then it goes on to say, thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures and to exhort the church, according as it shall be given thee by my spirit. For he shall lay his hands upon thee, and thou shalt receive the Holy Ghost, and thy time shall be given to writing and to learning much." Okay, well, there's so much we could say here as well. She had not been confirmed yet, so this seems to point to that happening. And if we look at section 27, the revelation that comes just a short time later, that comes in conjunction with the time when Emma was confirmed. So we know

that that did happen. But this idea that she's going to be an elect lady that she'll be ordained to expound scriptures and exhort the church seems to say that she's going to have a role to play as a leader, a leader in the church. And, of course, this comes to be understood as being fulfilled in 1842 when she is called and set apart or ordained as they use the term, as president of this new Relief Society for the Women that's formed in Na'avu. This idea of expounding scriptures and exhorting the Church, I mean, this idea, this word exhort, had a particular meaning in the Methodist Church that she came from. Exorters were lay preachers who had a calling to teach the other members of the church.

There's no evidence that this is fulfilled, that she takes this role at the time, at least in a public way. This seems to be, and Joseph gets up on March 17, 1842 at the organization of the Relief Society and says that this is a fulfillment of this revelation to Sister Emma. He also says that she was ordained at the time, meaning in 1830, that she had previously been ordained as this revelation in struts. Now whether that was something separate from her confirmation and receiving of the Holy Ghost as a member of the church, whether there was anything else particular done, we don't know at that time. We just know that Joseph says that she had been ordained in 1830.

Let me just read you a few things that he says here. He reads this, so this is in March of 1842, Joseph stands up in front of the women and he reads this revelation, this section 25, and stated that she had been ordained to expound the scriptures to all and to teach the female part of the community and the not she alone, but others may attain to the same blessings. And he goes on to read from the second epistle of John

first verse, which is where we get the term elect lady. And he reads that to show that respect was then had to the same thing and that why we, she was called an elect lady is because she was elected to preside. And in according to the customs and the procedures of the day at this organization meeting for the Relief Society,

Elizabeth Ann Whitney had nominated Emma to be the president of the society, and the sisters had voted on that and in that sense elected her to be the president of the relief society. So again, gosh, there's so much more we could say about her leadership of the relief society. If you're interested, you can go online to the church historian's press or actually it's in your gospel library app now, the book, the first 50 years of Relief Society,

has contains all of the minutes of the Navu Relief Society. And you can read those minutes and you can see Emma leading, you can see what she says and the really vigorous leadership that she takes of the Relief Society in Navu. So you would just go to your Gospel library app. You would hit Restoration and Church History. Then there's another tab called Women's History. And under that, there is that book right there, the first 50 years of Relief Society. I am, that's gonna be my scripture study. That's right.

I'm gonna go through and look at that. It's a really impressive volume and it's a very substantial volume. It's very much like a Joseph Smith paper's volume. But the section introductions, the introductions to the documents are very readable and very, very helpful. And it's just that book is so amazing for so many reasons that go beyond Emma. It's great for people to know that that's there. While you're there in that women's history section, you should also look at the book called

At the Pulpit, which is a collection of discourses given by Latter-day Saint women over the span of the history of the church. We do have some of Emma's words in there. We have Lucy Mack Smith and comes all the way up to the last decade. So that's also a really important resource that people should take a look at and use in your talks and your lessons. But Emma says that this opening meeting of the Relief Society, she says, we are going to do something extraordinary. We expect extraordinary occasions and pressing calls. Well, let's just make note of the end of verse eight,

thy time shall be given to writing and to learning much. I mean, that's not necessarily a commission that a woman in this period would expect to receive at that time, and it speaks to her abilities into the role that she can play in the church. And now we get to verses 9 and 10, which are really the connection to section 24. And we talked about what Joseph and Emma had been through in terms of their poverty and reliance on other members of the church to support them. And you can see that this must be weighing heavily on Emma's mind, because the Lord tells her, now need us not fear for thy husband shall support thee in the church.

For unto them is his calling that all things might be revealed unto them whatsoever I will, according to their faith. And verily, I say unto thee that thou shalt lay aside the things of this world and seek for the things of a better. I mean, again, Emma came from very prosperous circumstances and she definitely must have felt the difference in her life that it had made to marry this poor man who's a religious leader and held in suspicion and disesteem by a lot of people. And by this point, she has lost her first child. She is or shortly will become pregnant with twins

that she will also lose early the next year. She's beginning to have a sense of hardship that her life may entail. And so the Lord speaks to her fears, don't be afraid, the husband shall support thee in the church. And when you read that together with section 24 with the other revelation, and then throughout the revelations we have sprinklings of this idea of the church supporting Joseph and his family. I mean, there's no question here that the Lord is not promising her wealth. He's not promising her ease and comfort. And in fact, he says, lay aside the things of this world and seek for the things of a better. That's maybe one of the places where we all can do some soul searching about what are the things of this world?

How do you lay them aside? How do we seek for something better? Can we really do that when the chips are down? Because it's hard. It's hard when you don't know like if your children are gonna eat. It's hard when you don't know where the next pair of shoes is gonna come from. And I think Emma experienced that and I know many of us have experienced that

and many of our members experienced that. Yeah, wow. I, you know, that verse, that is something I've all, it means more to me now than it, than it ever has with your, with your explanation. I've, I've used that verse to question myself many times, right? Am I just okay with distractions sometimes? A new, a new show on Netflix, Okay, with distractions sometimes a new a new show on Netflix Great the the things of this world and the Lord's kind of saying hey, can we put that aside for a little bit? You know the all these distractions I teach the New Testament at BYU Lisa and one thing I teach Every semester is the parable of the Sower and the one, the one soil that really probably scares me the most is the soil that has so many weeds, so many other things in it, the plant just cannot

grow because all these weeds are taking all the resources, all the sunlight, all the water, taking all the nutrients out of the soil and the plant doesn't get any. And I've wondered how many times this has been me, probably neither of you, but it definitely has been me where I've got so many, so much entertainment going on in my life that the things of the better world aren't getting my, aren't getting my time. And if the Lord would probably say that to me as well, why don't we lay aside the things of this world and come after what I have for you? Oh.

He does say that many different times in many different ways throughout the scriptures. I had underlined the footnote to ether 124 right there because here's Maroni, who is all alone. I like to think of Moroni as the ultimate single adult because his greatest work was done while he was alone. But he finds this book of Ether and here's a second one as for how nations fall when they reject Christ puts in the record of the Gerdaiths. But in Ether 124, which is footnote of there, he says, wherefore, who so believe in God might with surety hope for a better world? And he couldn't improve his world.

It was all over for him, for Moroni, but he always had hope for a better world. And so I love the phrase here. You've got to, there's a better world coming and focus on that one. In the parable of the Sower, the Lord says that the weeds are the deceitfulness of riches, the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of this world. And you know, you're right, Lee said, this is throughout the scriptures. Lehigh's dream, would you want the building? Or do you want the tree?

You gotta make a choice, right? Do you want the things of this world? Or do you want something? And the Lord even say, he flat out says it, do you want something better? What I'm offering you is better than what the world offers you. So it's gotta be frustrating for him to think, why, why, what is so attractive about the things of this world that you would rather have

that than what I'm offering you over here? I think he understands it, actually. And I think that's why he says this. I think he knows exactly what human nature is, exactly what the human condition is. And to what John said, unlike Moroni, we can make our lives better. Most of us, we live in a world, especially those of us who are blessed with the prosperity of middle-class American life these days, there's no limit to what we can seek for and obtain riches wise in this in this life. I mean, you know, there's some limit, but we like to think there's not.

And so we really can spend our lives seeking after the things of this world. And I mean, as long as we pay our tithing, as long as we go to church, like that's enough, right? I mean, this is one of the difficulties is, and if we were talking about the law of consecration here, which you'll get to in later sections, I think the core question that it comes down to is how much is enough. How much is enough? And we have to ask that question of ourselves. That's what it comes down to, is we have to ask how much is enough. And when I have sufficient for my needs, then my imperative is to give and to spend my life seeking for the things of a better world.

Yeah, that's so instructive. In the book of Revelation, there's this moment where the Savior calls to the people in the great and spacious building and he says, come out of her, my people, that you receive not of her sins and of her plagues. Come out of her. He's, I just liked what you said. Throughout the Scriptures, the Lord is saying, leave that come here. Leave that come to me. Come, yeah, this better, I offer you something better. I wanna move to this selection of hymns. What can you tell us about this?

This is, this is, this is a new thing. We have a church, we're gonna need a hymn book. Let me read the verse, it's verse 11, and it shall be given thee also to make a selection of sacred hymns as it it shall be given the which is pleasing unto me to be had in my church. And then he goes on to talk about the my soul delights in the songs of the heart. The song of the righteous is a prayer unto me.

And I'll answer it with a blessing upon their head. I think the Lord, he likes music. Wherefore lift up thy heart and rejoice and cleave unto the covenant which thou hast made. Why can't it tell us about Emma and the hymnbook? Yeah. Well, one thing I can tell you is that singing was a big part of the Methodist tradition that she came from. And we still have in our hymnbook many hymns that came out of that Methodist hymn,

tradition. I know that my Redeemer lives is one of them, for example. This is 1830. It appears that the plan was to publish the hymnol along with the book of commandments and the early revelations that William W. Felps was working on in Jackson County in the summer of 1833 when the mob comes in and breaks up the press. And so the book of commandments has never finished. The hymnol is not published at that time.

Emma's role, the initial role in selecting hymns seems to have been just that, deciding which hym him would be included. And I don't know how much we know, I like this isn't something I'm a total expert on, but the development of this first himnal becomes kind of a collaborative thing between Emma and between W.W. Phelps, as he's known. He's contributing many hymn texts that he's writing, which are either hymns that he she definitely plays an important role. And this is recognized as a responsibility that's given to her by revelation to select the hymns.

The first hymnal is finally published in, the date on it is 1835. It looks like the book itself didn't actually come out until 1836. But it's around the same time that the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants is published. And it's a little tiny book if you ever come into the Church History Library. We have had one of the first hymnals in our display cases there in the Church History

Library, so you can see for yourself that it's just a little tiny book that you could put in your pocket. And it didn't have the music, just the lyrics to these, to the hymns. Over time, there's felt like a need to have other additions of hymnals come out, and it always comes back to what's Emma's role in all of this. In about, I think it's about 1840, the brethren who are in England are wanting to publish a hymnal for the use of the saints in England. And I think it's Brigham Young that takes the lead in that. And there's some back and forth about it, but there's an addition of hymns that bears more of the apostles' influence on it. And there's been some interesting study done to look at, you know, what were the types of hymns that Emma chose and emphasized as opposed to maybe what some of the male leaders did? And Emma's affinity was for hymns that expressed

a personal relationship with Christ, that spoke of personal religious experience of the grace and of the grace and power that came from these personal religious experiences, whereas the apostles' hymnol, as it's called, tends to influence or tends to emphasize priesthood and restoration and big doctrinal themes. In the long run, that becomes more of the basis for our hymn book than what Emma's early hymnal was. But we do still have, and if you look at the bottom of the page, if you still use a paper hymn book, or if you're using the electronic version with the images, it does note which hymns were included in that first hymnal. And so we know that Emma did play a major role, and in fact Lucy Smith describes Emma's work at this time as her whole heart being in it,

that she was very much interested in this calling that she'd been given. And you know, there was a significant thing for a woman to be given that kind of a responsibility in the early church. Wow. And I just, music is such an integral part of my own spirituality. That, to me, I'm so glad that from the very beginning, the Lord is saying, yeah, music needs to be a part of this, because I know for many of the students I've taught, it's the language of the spirit to them is... Absolutely. And the way it's expressed here, the language is so beautiful.

My soul delighteth in the song of the heart. I mean, the Lord says, my soul, the Lord's soul delighteth. My soul. In the song of the heart, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me. And I think we've all had that experience of singing in a prayerful way, in a way that becomes a communion and a plea to the Lord. So it's expressed really beautifully there. Yeah, I think in the Gospel of Mark, it says, just before the Savior goes to the Garden of

Gesemini, he and his disciples, the Apostles and others, they sang. They sang just before that. And I've always thought of that as I, you know, sing the sacrament him. I'm thinking, this is what the Savior did before he went to guess how many. So, and I guess you can, I think most of us would just say you can feel it. You can feel the Holy Ghost, the Lord that love music. There's a language there that sometimes can convey things that just words cannot in music. So let's finish out this section, Lisa, where the Lord talks about, lift up your heart and rejoice, you're going to receive a crown of righteousness. You know, something I noticed in verse 13 that's really interesting, where it says,

cleave unto the covenants which Thou has made. As far as I can tell, this is the first time in the revelations that that word covenants is used in this sense, that covenants that you have made a personal covenant with God, it talks about covenant of Israel and stuff earlier, but this is, as far as I can tell, the first time that he's talking about your covenants in a personal way. And of course, that takes us back to

Maulzaya 18, and Emma's just recently been baptized. You're willing to enter into a covenant with him. And so that seems to be very clearly a reference to her baptism in the covenant there. And perhaps again, we don't know how well she knew the Book of Mormon at this time, but certainly that was a passage in the Book of Mormon that had stuck out to Joseph and Oliver as they're figuring out what this new church is going to look like and that enters into the articles and covenants and shaping the practice of the new church. So. And you described her life to us as earlier,

she does bear other people's burdens for the rest of her life, her husbands and others. Yes, she does. One of the questions I was going to ask because I want to, I want to know if this story is, is really true and accurate because to me, it, it's kind of a window into Joseph and Emma's marriage, maybe, is when he is translating and says, Emma, does Jerusalem have a wall around it? Can, can you shed some light on that fun story?

Yeah, that's a story she tells. And she recalls that when he was, I guess it's when she was serving as a scribe, he stops and he just looks horrified. He's been, I guess, had his face in the hat looking at the stone and he looks horrified and said, and asked Emma, did Jerusalem have walls? And of course, Emma being well educated in the Bible says, yes, of course it did and he's very relieved, oh, good, I thought I'd been deceived there for a minute. So she used that as an example to show how unlearned Joseph Smith was at the time that he translated

the book of Mormon. She testified strongly that he couldn't even write a well-worded letter at the time that he's translating the book of Mormon. She says, though I was there and witnessed all of the events, it is a marvelous work and a wonder to me. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon. So she bears a really strong testimony of the miracle that that was. And so yeah, that story is part of her illustration of how Joseph Smith was not capable of doing. What, you know, he was not capable of writing this book of his own initiative.

I kind of just love the window into the marriage of Emma's more educated than Joseph is, and he can rely on her. And I love that he could immediately stop Emma. Does Jerusalem have a wall around it? And that she would? It's one of the reasons Joseph has so much respect for her. Yes. And so much reliance on her is that she fills in some gaps that he has, especially at first. Yeah, and I love that aspect of their marriage. My wife just creamed me in the ACT test, so

I have to rely on her sometimes like this. You know, Lisa, as you were as you were talking about Emma's final testimony to her son, I have this thought and you you both can correct me. But if someone, a critic of Joseph Smith and the church is willing to say that the Book of Mormon is a fraud, then what does that say? What are you saying about the character of Emma Smith that she was willing on her death bet to lie to her own children? Are you willing to go there? If you're willing to say, hey, I don't believe the Book of Mormon, I think it's a fraud, then you also are saying that Emma Smith has no character whatsoever, right?

On her death bet, she's willing to light her own children. I just, I would never be willing to go there. I would never be willing to impune her like that or anyone else involved, but her especially. You know, I have had students ask me in the past because they're kind of aware of Emma's later life and her disaffiliation with the church that comes to Utah. And that final testimony that she gives is given to her son,

Joseph Smith III, who is the leader of the RLDS church at the time. And so we have to understand that to some extent her lot is in with the RLDS church at that point. And so when she's saying, testifying about the church, she's seeing that in a different way than what we would see it. That's good. If we read that testimony out of context. But I don't think that that's a deal breaker.

I mean, because, I mean, I think as members of the church today, we can still rely on that testimony of Emma's because she's speaking primarily of the events of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. And so whatever her later relationship with the church is is not a, you know, that's not up for grabs at the time. The fact that I'm in the late 1820s. I don't know if you had a chance to listen to our interview with Casey, but he says the same thing. He says, her David Whitmer, there's no reason to say, well, they're, you know, they're telling us how miraculous it was.

Why would we, why would we refuse to hear them on this? Yeah. And in some ways, the fact that they didn't stay with what we think of as the mainstream church adds credence to that, because especially in the case of a David Whitmer, you know, whose disaffection from Joseph Smith is so is so keen. He had every reason in the world to to repudiate that and yet he didn't. And likewise with Emma, she just doesn't qualify her testimony. she just doesn't qualify her testimony. Dr. Alisa Olsen-Tate, that is your official title.

You are a historian and a scholar. You know as much about this history as anyone else. Certainly, you know as much about this history as a critic of the church. And yet, here you are, faithful, believing. You know the details of where Jail's of and Emma are, according to the month and year. We want to talk to Lisa. What is the restoration done for Lisa as a mother, as a wife, and also as a historian and

a scholar? When people ask me why I do history, what is it that drew me to doing history? My answer is people. I'm interested in people. I'm interested in the human condition and the human experience over time. How we're the same, how things change, how people have experienced life, and how much we share with the people who have come before us in this world. And for me, my bad rock perspective on history then is that it's about people. And by definition, that means people are human. They have weakness, they're frail, they're imperfect.

I mean, what we call history, they called life. their frail, their imperfect. I mean, what we call history, they called life. They were embedded and enmeshed in the same kind of uncertainties and messiness and difficulties that we deal with all the time. To me, that perspective makes the hand of the Lord more evident when it is there. Because we see the experiences, the events, the things that happen that are beyond human

capability, that are beyond just what human beings can do and experience on a day-to-day basis. And in my own life, I have had those experiences too. And they usually come in very quiet ways. They're usually very much bound up in the circumstances and the complexities of my life as it unfolds for a minute to minute. And recognizing that about Joseph Smith, about Emma, about the early saints, I think is important and I think is helpful in recognizing how God really works in the world.

And it's through the week and the simple, as he says, it's through small and simple things, it's through the still small voice. And then there are the moments when it's a little more than that. And we recognize those because they do lift us out of the everyday circumstances of our lives. And we can see that that's how it's been for people in the past as well.

That having been said, it's utterly impossible for us to ever go back and completely reconstruct the past. I mean, I can't go back and reconstruct yesterday minute by minute, right? Because we don't have what would you base that on? We can only reconstruct history based on the sources that we have. And that is subject to so many variables of what got written down and what got saved and was it accessible? And do we have it now? And then can we make sense out of it in given that our world is so different than their world?

So I just find that my testimony is, I mean, my testimony is based on the witness of the spirit. My testimony is based on the witness of the Spirit. My testimony is based on seeking and immersing myself in the word and having experiences with the Lord that are very powerful and very real. Just like these revelations that we've been talking about today were for the people who received them. My confidence in these people and their experiences

is strong based on the records that we have and the experiences that they've recorded for us. And I think we can learn a great deal from those and we can be inspired by them. But no matter how deeply we study, we can't prove anything one way or another through history. And you also can't disprove anything through history. The faith and testimony that comes through the Holy Spirit and only through the Holy Spirit.

But by reading about the experiences of other people, we can share in their experiences and we can have our own faith strengthened and we can have our own experiences become more meaningful as we see how we're sharing in that human experience over time. Wow. I love that. The idea that these here are ordinary people having extraordinary experiences. And for me, this podcast, I feel like a very ordinary person having an extraordinary experience this year.

John, don't you feel the same way? Yeah. My doctor and covenants will never be the same. And every week, I just look forward to taking more notes and my nodding muscles are, are getting sore. I'm like, oh, yeah. I ran out of room on my section 25 margins. Oh, man. as I was writing. There's learned so much. Dr. Tate, Lisa Olson Tate, thank you so much

for being here and giving us your time and giving our listeners so much information and so much knowledge in making these sections now so rich. Thank you so much. Thank you, it's been fun. We want to thank all of our listeners, of course, for sticking with us. We want to thank our producer, Shannon Sornson.

We want to thank our production crew, David Perry, and Lisa Spice. And as I said now, we are on social media. So we want to thank our social media expert, Jamie Nielsen. Thank you so much to our entire team, and we'll see you on the next episode of Follow Him.