Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 29 : Dr. Anthony Sweat Part I

Episode Date: March 21, 2021

Dr. Anthony Sweat returns (due to popular demand) and explains  why Section 29 is a favorite section regarding a broad scope of the Lord’s work and vision. Dr. Sweat also gives teachers the idea of a Scriptural and Historical Scavenger Hunt in Section 29. Not all sections are created equal and Section 29 illuminates the Premortal Existence, the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement, the Second Coming of Jesus, the Millenium, and the rationale for building Zion. Jesus intends to gather Israel and He uses Section 29  to teach His people about His elect. On God’s team, you get to choose to be a part--your choices matter and these concepts were revelatory to the Church membership.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith, and I'm John, by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow Him. My friends welcome to another episode of Follow Him. I'm here with my incredible co-host, John By the Way.

Hello, John. I think how are you? I can't tell you how excited I am for today because this is our first returning guest, a returning expert. Who's with us today? Lots of people are excited because we have Tony sweat back with this again

I'm gonna interrupt real quick and just say you guys are doing such great work with this you won't Tut your own horn, but you guys are killing it with this podcast You're doing such great work. I just love you both and thank you for the great work You're doing to bless so many lives out there Tony we love you the follow-in podcast are big supporters of Tony Sweat and his work. John, tell us about Tony. Anthony R. Sweat received a BFA,

which I think means Bachelor of Fine Arts in painting and drawing from the University of Utah, a master's in education and a PhD in curriculum and instruction from Utah State University. And before joining the religion faculty at BYU, he worked for 13 years with seminary in institutes. He centers his research on factors that influence effective religious education.

And as a practicing artist, his painting center on previously undepicted important aspects of church history to promote visual learning. And Anthony is wife Cindy are the parents of seven children and they live in Springville. And recently Tony had this book published re-picturing the restoration. Beautiful watercolor thrilled that you were doing this and that you're letting people see your art about the restoration.

I love that you've said, listen, I had this art thing going on and I just kind of kept it going. It wasn't a huge part of my life, but I kept it going, I kept it going, and now it's just the kind of the chess pieces moved together for this book. Yeah, I could show you many journal entries that sound exactly like a frustrated artist because that's exactly what I was. But if there's one thing that this has taught me, it took, it's taken about 20 years to kind of find the window or the avenue or the outlet for my art. And sometimes it just takes a little patience, a little time to let things come together. We live in an instant society, we want instant answers, we want two day delivery, if it takes

seven, we're upset. But sometimes the Lord works, and we'll probably talk about that a little bit in section 29 today. The Lord's timing is often different than ours, and we need to trust His timing, as Elder Maxwell says, along with his will. Our entire lesson this week is one section of the doctrine covenant, section 29. It's listed as September of 1830. The church is just about six months old.

They've recently gone through this a little bit of a not a crisis maybe with Hiram Page, but a situation with Hiram Page that's kind of sensitive. And now we get to section 29. Can you tell us what leads up to this revelation? What's life like for Joseph Smith and his contemporaries? The Hiram Page incident is a major incident and it actually bleeds a little bit into section 29. Although we don't know exactly what Hiram Page

was writing on his revelations that he received, we know that some of them dealt with the upbuilding of Zion, maybe even where, you know, guessing where the city should be built. And you're going to see some themes of that come through in section 29. You know, John Whitmer in Revelation book one, when he recorded this revelation in section 29. I have his quote here. He writes down a revelation to six elders of the church and three members that they understood from Holy Rit that the time had come that the people of God should see eye to eye. And he's quoting Isaiah 52-8, see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion. And they're seeing somewhat different on the death of Adam Which is another part, but the whole higher-end page Zion where are we going to build Zion?

You know as Joseph translates the book of Mormon it talks about building the New Jerusalem a literal city of God the city of Zion Book of ether, right? Yeah, book of ether talks about it very directly and that it's one of our articles of faith that Zion, the new Jerusalem, will be built up on the American continent and they want to know more about that. And so that's on their mind and that's a little bleed over from section 28 from higher and page. And then you know, as back to John Whitmer, he says, they also saw a little bit different upon the death of Adam. That is his transgression. Therefore, they made it a little bit different upon the death of Adam. That is his transgression. Therefore, they made it a subject of prayer and inquired of the Lord, and thus came the word of the Lord through Joseph the seer.

So, they have some questions about Adam, and then a major third historical thing is, Joseph Smith has started his Bible translation in the summer of 18, in June of 1830. So now it's September of 1830. Joseph has probably translated up to close somewhere around chapter five, so Moses one to five. And this is really big, I'd say this to your listeners.

If you want to get a lot out of section 29, study Moses chapter two through five. Because Joseph is translating those Moses chapters right around these same months as he gets section 29 and you're going to see direct bleed over between the two. You can see parts of verses from the book of Moses that are informing the revelation even further in section 29. So I I just there's this really cool quote from Robert J. Matthews, who's one of the great scholars of the Joseph Smith translation. And he said this quote, the doctrine and covenants and its relationship

with the Joseph Smith translation are not too entirely separate books. They are interwoven. And it's really just a great thing for listeners to understand that idea. A lot of the doctrine of codenance revelations are springing either directly or indirectly from Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible at this time. I've often said that to my students where I think the student, my students, when we come to the Bible, when I teach the New Testament, they'll say, they'll look at the JST and they'll say, you know,

Joseph Smith corrected this verse, corrected this verse, and they'll have it in their mind that the purpose of the Joseph Smith translation was to correct the Bible, which in part it is. But wouldn't you say, Tony, and what do you tell your students? Wouldn't you say that part of the Joseph Smith translation project was to restore the gospel to get Joseph Smith asking the right questions?

Almost definitely. I think I like to say that the Joseph Smith translation was a springboard for revelation for Joseph. It acted as this catapult into like celestial spheres for him where he was just grasping concepts that I'm not sure he had ever thought about. And this could be a mystery on my part. So it's just conjecture.

I don't know of any historical documentation that would support this, but I'm not certain Joseph Smith has ever read the Bible cover to cover at this point. If we ask most 24-year-olds out there, have you read the Bible, Genesis to Revelation? I don't think most of them, even within Bible believing Christians probably haven't by the time they're 24. I know I've asked my B.O.U. students before and the high majority of them raised their hand and say that they've never done it cover to cover. And Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy, one time said that Joseph was not given to doing a lot of reading. He was more given to deep thinking and pondering. And so even though he grows up in a believing family

and in a Christian community, there's no indication that he'd ever read the Bible cover to cover. So it's also probably the first time he's doing this intently and it's just causing all these revelations to come as he does it. And that could, I automatically start thinking personal application there that we can have,

not do our own Joseph Smith translation, but the idea is get into the scriptures and let them be a springboard for revelation. I think I mentioned this before, I think, but, but, you know, that Joseph building Maconkey used to say when Joseph was translating the book Mormon, he got, you know, gospel 101, first principles. And when he did the JST went to graduate school. That's right. Joseph McConkey said, here this, like things that you had, he hadn't even thought of before,

perhaps, or being revealed through doing the JST. And I like that we are talking about all the stuff that was going on. Most people wouldn't, oh, I don't know when he was doing the book of Moses, but to see that as an unfolding, I love what President Nelson is called at a continuous restoration. And to see it unfolding here, that's helpful. Thank you. I, Tony, you said this. I think on our first episode, if I remember, you said the Book of Mormon will take you to Jesus. And the doctrine of dominance is gonna take you to the next level. It's gonna take you to the temple and to God the Father. Is that something you teach your students?

Most definitely. You want me to say it again? You do. You do. Yeah, my big tagline is that the Book of Mormon is the book of salvation. It teaches us the gospel of Jesus Christ more purely and clearly than any book I know of.

And I say that with love and respect to the New Testament. But the doctrine of covenants is the book of exaltation. The book of Mormon brings us to Jesus and the doctrine of covenants brings us to the Father. The book of Mormon will bring us into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the doctrine of covenants will take us to the temple. It is the book that is meant to take us into the fullness of the Abrahamic covenant and the blessings of exaltation. It's just a beautiful book. It's a beautiful idea. Here's step one, here's step two. Yeah, and it's appropriate that our missionaries use the book of Mormon because it brings people

to the church. It's interesting that we don't have our missionaries walk around handing people copies of the doctrine and covenants. Yeah, and not that they couldn't, not that that wouldn't help, but you know, the Book of Mormon has its role, but it's just so important for all of us to know that the doctrine and covenants has its important role also. Yeah, and I think this year I personally, John, I know you've said this a couple of times, I'll never look at the doctor and cover it's the same way again. At least these first 28 sections that we've gone through. Hey, Tony, I wanted to ask you something. Isn't September of 1830 a conference? Yes. As well. Second conference of the church. Okay. What does conference look like versus 2021, general conference. Yeah, it looks like getting a few families together

from your neighborhood versus gathering a global church. So we're talking, you know, the first conference of the church, I believe is in June. The second conference of the church is this September, end of September conference of 1830. And I mean, we're really, I don't know the exact numbers offhand, but we're talking a hundred-ish people maybe. A branch.

It's a branch. It's the Whitmer's. It's the Smith's. It's, you know, the Knights and I said this before. Yeah. Porter Rockwell's the one young man. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's, it is a branch. It's not, so these conferences are important, but we're gathering, you know,

a hundred-ish people together. And it's not even the entire church, often it's a conference of elders. They're only bringing the men together at this time. Okay. It's kind of incredible to think that because then you read the language of the section and it's huge,

it's grandiose, it's world, it's, this is who you are and there's only 100 of them sitting there. No, crazy. That's one of the things I enjoy about this. I mean, come follow me, remind us last week, nobody's been a member of the church for six months yet. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's what we're seeing here too, as the church hadn't been established so. And that tells you the vision of the Lord. Yeah, right? He knows this is bigger. Do you think, I've often said in the book of Mormon, when the Lord visits the Nephites, that he has a dual audience in mind.

He's one of the only people I think that can speak in scripture and speak to multiple audiences. Do you think he has us in mind as he gives these revelations? I mean, we first want to read them how they were received by those initial saints. But do you think the Lord has that dual audience in mind as he gives the doctrine of covenants? He has.

I mean, you know, the Scriptures say all things are present before his eyes. He sees the end from the beginning. He is, you know, alpha and omega. I mean, all you have to do is look at section one of the doctrine and covenants that was given, you know, in 1831, the church is barely a year and a half old when section one's given. And he's saying, Harkin, the world, O. E. Islands, all lands from afar. Everybody, listen up. Everybody,

I'm talking to you all. Lord definitely I wouldn't have any problem saying he's got not just us in mind he's got future generations in mind that you and I can't even fathom right now and like yeah like in section 25 the last verse this is my voice unto all you know it's not just Emma make a hymn book and I I love that we went through that and saw all of the different to things that Emma was asked to do. To be, I wrote it in my margin, a comfort, a scribe, an expounder, an exorter, a writer, a learner, even a compiler, though it doesn't use that word. And then the Lord says, I'm saying this to everybody. Before we go right into section 29, Tony, I think everybody knows, oh, yeah,

in the Pearl or Great Price, there's a book of Moses. But could you kind of tell us now in context of all this, what that is, how that relates to the JST, how that relates to the book of Genesis, and what's going on in Moses? Yeah. So it's, it's important again that we realize that right after the church is organized in April of 1831, the first big next projects that Joseph Smith undertakes is his Bible revision. He starts it in June of 1830, so just a few months later, we don't know precisely what kicks off Moses 1. Moses 1 is almost this prequel to Genesis. I almost read it like, you know, Genesis kicks off with the first book of Moses and in the beginning, you know, God created the heavens

and the earth. And it's almost like Joseph saying, how did Moses learn this? And you get this prequel chapter, this Moses won this. Man alive, if you want to test one of the Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, just read Moses chapter one. I dare any listener out there to write anything as beautiful and succinct as Moses 139

for this is my work and my glory. You have this dramatic, you know, God, Moses, you're my son, my son, I have a work for you, expansive, he sees the creation, all inhabitants, closes, Satan comes, tempts him, son of man, we've heard all this, you know, casts him out, God comes again, teaches them more. It's just this.

Wow, it's a wow chapter. What I'm saying is it's uncertain if that was ever part of the Bible, or if that led Joseph to go into the Bible, you know, did Moses one spur the JST or the JST spur Moses one? It's not quite exactly clear, but we know that after his vision of Moses, record in Moses 1 in the Pro-Great Price, Joseph then begins his Bible revision. He starts revising by inspiration revelation, Genesis 1, which is the first book of Moses, and that becomes

Moses 2. So his revision of Genesis 1 is Moses 2. His revision of Genesis 2 becomes Moses 3 and so on. So, if that wasn't confusing enough for your listeners, basically, as you're reading Moses 2 to 5, it's his translation of Genesis 1 to 4. I think that makes sense. And Moses 1 is this brand new Scripture. And Tony, I'm so glad you said that because that I mean it is Amazing that the vision and it's a great story and I'm glad to know This other stuff is coming, you know near to that time these sections of the doctrine of covenants Like let me just show you like a few direct connections between Joseph Translator the book of Moses and this section 29 and go to Moses chapter three

And you can see in the chapter heading, God created all things spiritually before they were naturally upon the earth. And he, in verse five, for either Lord created all things, of which I have spoken spiritually before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. Now jump over to section 29 and go to verse 32.

First spiritual, second temporal, which is the beginning of my work. And again, first temporal and secondly spiritual. Or verse 31, sorry, for by this power of my spirit created by them all things, both spiritual and temporal. So you're seeing a direct connection there with Moses three.

Or now if you go to Moses chapter four and either Lord God's bake into Moses saying, that Satan whom that was commanded in my name and and the name of my only begotten, is the same which was before me in the beginning, and he came before me saying, behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it, wherefore give me thy honor. Now jump over to doctrine and covenant section 29 and look at verse 36. And it came to pass

that Adam being tempted the devil for behold the devil's before Adam and he rebelled against me saying, give me thine honor, which is my power. There's just a few examples. And you see this all through section 29, these direct connections between what he's translating and learning in the book of Moses,

you see those ideas spilling into this revelation of section 29. You can see kind of scripture weaving into Joseph's thoughts in the way he describes the revelations he's receiving. This is great. I'm looking in the footnotes on page 52 if you're using old-fashioned pages. And I'm seeing Moses 3, Moses 3, Moses 4, Moses 4, and seeing them That way which is so fun. I like seeing it unfold that interwoven idea that Robert J. Matthews said right there Tony I've noticed and maybe it's just my when I was a kid I used to look ahead to see how long sections were

Because we had to you know as you read them as a family, you're going, oh, okay, this one's a short one. Isn't that the first thing we do? One chapter or section day? We're open up. Look how many pages it is. How long is this? And this is one of Joseph Smith's longer revelations.

Some of these other shorter ones, like section 13, 14, 15, they're shorter, six,, six, seven verses, and then here, this comes, it's pretty prolific. Yeah. Is this kind of a, is this new ground a little bit for him? Or is it, section 18, I guess, is a pretty... Section 20.

Amazing. Super long. Yeah, section 20, articles and covenants, so. But this is definitely longer, right? Most, most doctrine articles and covenants. So, but this is definitely longer. I most most doctrine cuttings Revelations don't don't get up to this 50-ish verse. This is definitely a longer revelation. Yeah, and it feels very New Testament-esque to me. Is there you did something wonderful with section one you like broken into pieces. Do you have something like that? I put you on the spot for section 29. I got it. I got something for you. I came prepared. I'm ready. You know, there's in the Come Fall of Me, man. You know, they have a really good outline where they kind of say,

you know, here's versus on the pre-mortal life and here's versus on the creation and on the fall and on the purpose of life, the atonement, the resurrection, final judgment. It's excellent. Follow that. I like to add just a few more into that list from section 29. So if you want to take this approach, follow what's income follow me. So the topic's idea or pre-existence, Adam and Eve in the garden, the present day or the purpose of life. Then I do events and things prior to the second coming, events at Christ coming, and then I do millennium end of the world. Now, unfortunately, it's not a chronological story. They don't go in that order, but you can take a pre-existence to the end of the world approach with this section. If you want,

I could read those verses off. It might be a little too tiresome, but if you want, you could just send you yourself, your kids, and to go find those that are in there. Like you said, there's, let's see, seven, they have it, seven bullet points on page 54 of the Come Follow Me manual, really nice. Break it. Really well done. And then you've added a couple of other things.

So that's helpful. I actually, I do want to say something about this section that is a little different than the standard narrative we give it, because even the one that I just gave where it's this broad scope, and it is a broad scope of a section where you get things from the pre-mortal life all the way to the end of the world. But I actually don't think that's the focal point of the section. Again, in context, they are thinking about Zion. They're thinking about, why are we going to gather and build this new Jerusalem, this city of Zion? And Joseph Smith and his revelations almost always puts the building of Zion in this second coming preparation

context. So one of the purposes of this section is it gives a rationale for building Zion and for the covenant people of the Lord to prepare for the second coming. So you have to remember like in context Joseph almost like take our article of faith, we believe in the literal gathering of Israel, Restoration of Los Entribes, that Zion the New Jerusalem we build upon the American continent and that Christ will reign personally upon the earth. He'll return to the earth. Those order of events you you guys, are how they view things. Like, Joseph almost always teaches about the gathering of Israel in a second coming context and the building of Zion in that context. Jump to verse 7, and you are called to bring to pass the gathering of mynelect. For mynelect, hear my voice and harden not their hearts.

And a big question, particularly in Joseph Smith's time, and in some circles today, is, who are the elect? And verse 7 gives us a hint that the elect are those who voluntarily choose to hear God's voice. Because in Joseph's time, and today, there's some people who are saying, no, God chooses the elect. God, it's like the difference between, do I sign up for my county city league basketball team? Or do I get chosen to play for an NBA team? You know, what these seem to be saying is you get to choose to be part of the elect. It's almost like we could choose to go play professional basketball. You know,

correct me if I'm wrong here, but that sounds like the difference early on between Presbyterianism and Methodism. Yes. Right. Presbyterianism. This is, you are chosen by God. Methodism. You can kind of volunteer yourself. Yes, you can.

You can't. You can't predestination. Yeah. Yeah, this is predestination for nation, Calvinism, Armenianism, God's sovereign will, and man's ability to choose. And our doctrine is going to come firmly down through these revelations on the side of,

it is your choice. It is all within your power. Like, I just went through and look at some of these words on this theme of you can choose to be part of the elect. Verse 1, the Lord kicks off with, listen, like that's a choice. Verse 2, as many as will harken to my voice. Verse 7, that we just read that the elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts. Verse 35, he gave it a man to be an agent unto himself. Verse 36, people turned away from God because of their agency. Verse 39, he wants men to be agents unto themselves.

Verse 40, Adam yielded, verse 43, even as many as would believe. Or in with verse 45, they loved darkness rather than light, their deeds are evil, and they received the wages of whom they list to obey. There's this theme through this whole section on agency. It's your choice. You can choose to be elect and be prepared and be with Zion. So you just made me think of it would be interesting to be in this brand new church and someone says, Hey, what do you guys believe about this? And you're going, I don't know. Let me go ask Joseph. Like, do we believe in agency? Oh, I think we do. Let's go, you know, let's go talk about it. Yeah. It's, it would be interesting to see what I believe

being rolled out in front of me, you know, in real time. In real time. Yeah. Yeah. And do you know, do you know what I like about verse seven? Two, my intellect here, my voice, and hard-knought their hearts. Here's President Nelson telling us to go find those who will let God prevail in their lives. And that is the same thing. That's their choice. Are you willing to let God prevail? There's a theme of agency running through this section, which by the way is something, if I'm going to teach, if I'm going to focus on one thing to teach my children, I, they'll , if you, Tony, if you ever talk to my kids, they'll say it's, dad's always

talking about our choices, right? Our choices are decisions determined, our destiny. It's all about our choices, the choices we make. I will always love you. I tell them, I will always love you no matter what choice you make, but your choices matter. They will, they will make the difference in your life. And I think section 29 you're saying, the Lord is saying the same thing.

Your choice is matter. Your choice is matter. And you have the power to choose. I mean, this is a big, it's a big idea. Tony, I can't tell you how many people have said from our first episode with you. They love that point where God says, why is everybody saying you do you?

You don't do you. That's a terrible idea. You do God, right? And it seems almost like section 29 is we're coming do you. That's a terrible idea. You do God, right? And it seems almost like section 29 is we're coming up with our Tony Sweat themes here where the Lord's, where the Lord's saying, that's a terrible idea, right? You have the freedom to choose, and I want you to choose me. I don't want you to choose you. Choose me. Yeah, and these are big theological ideas is really at the heart of it. Can we,

logical ideas is really at the heart of it, can we voluntarily choose God and choose to follow him? And the answer overwhelmingly in section 29 is yes. The Lord does something in section 29 verse 2 that for me personally I really love it just because I have chickens. My wife grew up with having chickens in the yard and so we've always had them since we've been married. Oh, I guess we didn't in our first little apartment. That would have been odd. But as soon as we got a house, we got chickens. And the Lord says, and this is a theme in the Book of Mormon. It's a theme in the New Testament.

He says, I will gather my people as a hen, gather with her chickens under her wings. If you've never seen that, it's a beautiful concept because you take these little chicks and they are just vulnerable, just completely vulnerable to predators. And this mother hen will start clucking and those little chicks will run for cover. They'll dive underneath there and they will fall sound asleep there. They're just so safe and so warm.

And so whenever I read that verse, I think of the Lord's love, right? Some other people might need and I might not see that if they've never seen a chicken, they're going, that's an odd metaphor. But really, if you've ever seen this happen, you'll go, oh, wow, they look so safe there. And they feel safe. You can tell that they feel safe because they just, they calm out. They fall. There's a cool little painting that I think again and they come follow me, man. You know, they have a Liz Limon swindle painting,

I think of that. It's a great visual to see for you non-farmers out there. Pretty non-hands. Non-hands. Non-hands. I was gonna bring this up because I knew this was coming, but in third and E. 510, you mentioned Hank, that I've got in my margins, you know, present, past, and future because in verse four of 3rd Nephi

10, how often have I gathered you as again, hand gathered her chickens under her wings and have nourished you? That kind of sounds present tense, ish. Verse five, how often would I have gathered you as a handgatherer through chickens under her wings, yay, OU people of the House of Israel who have fallen, yay, OU people of the House of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem as ye that have fallen, yay, how often would I have gathered you as a handgatherer through chickens, and ye would not, and that there's their choice

again. And then verse 6, O house of Israel who might have spared, how often will I gather you as a handgather through chickens under her wings? If you were repent, return unto me with full purpose of heart. And I see a present, past, and future there always willing to be that gatherer. I thought that was, that's kind of fun to see that time. It's not time bound.

And I think about the where, you know, where can I turn for peace? Right? And I think verse two, the Lord know, where can I turn for peace? Right? And I think verse two, the Lord's saying, right here, right here, I'm the one that can offer you that comfort, that peace, and that safety that you're so desperately looking for, right? In the atonement, look at verse one, the arm of mercy hath a toned for your sins.

And because he's done that, I can now offer you this wonderful life, right? John 8, 12, the Lord says, those who follow me will have the light of life. I love the phrase, the life of life. Look at with that, Hank, with what you're saying. Look at verse five, lift up your hearts. Be glad. Like, let's lift up your, there's so much good news.

Be glad. I'm in your midst. I am your advocate with the father. You know, I'm arguing, I'm laying down all the great things for you. And it's his goodwill to give you the kingdom. Like, you know, back to work. Can I turn turn for peace the Lord saying right here. I It is his goodwill to give you the kingdom He's not saying I'm pleading with the father and the father saying oh, I don't know You know, but they are both they're they're all on our side. I'm on your side the father's on your side What did Ella Stevenson once say something very simple? He said you have the savior of the world on your side How can you lose? Right? How can you lose and it comes back to choose, he said, you have the savior of the world on your side, how can you lose? Right, how can you lose? And it comes back to, choose him.

Choose him. Let God prevail. No, let's keep going here, Tony. Let's talk about verse seven, the gathering, because the Lord says it again in verse eight, that they shall be gathered into one place upon the face of the land. I'm assuming they would have thought of that as Zion.

Yes, definitely. And this is a big, you know, I need to, frankly, be careful with this, because while I don't mean this is a criticism of our collective generation, but while we've made a great focus on the gathering of Israel, importantly, we've lost sight a little bit of the building of the New Jerusalem, in my opinion anyway, of that there will be. It's one of the great works of the latter days that a city called New Jerusalem will be built.

That our article of faith does not say, you know, that perhaps maybe if things go right, metaphorically, if we're lucky, no, it says that Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be built upon the American continent. And they were viewing at this time anyway, that gathering as we should build this city and gather there now. Now I know that the listeners will say, like, well, the whole church gather there, how could we do that with a global church? I couldn't answer those questions. That will be something that we'll have to see how it unfolds, given time and prophetic

direction. But at minimum, it is one of our articles of faith and we do believe that there will be a city of New Jerusalem built and some sort of gathering. Now, currently we're gathering to our local stakes of Zion and building up the church where we're at. And that may be the continued direction. But at this time in particular, they are viewing the gathering as a central place

around a physical city that they're gonna build the city of Zion. That's beautiful. I've heard it said before, how can we expect the king to come if there is no kingdom for him to come to? You know, I would actually, it's probably a good part, point two, right there around where it says

they will be gathered into one place. Because, and we'll talk about this in this chapter, we're gonna look at a lot of, frankly, scary verses. You know, the ones that would give some of your kid nightmares. Yeah, next page. Yeah, the very next page. But next, of verse seven and eight,

on the gathering unto one place upon the face of the earth, notice what it says, to prepare their hearts and be prepared in all things against the day when tribulation and desolation are sent forth upon the wicked. So again, you're seeing that gather Israel, build the New Jerusalem so that you're prepared and ready before the second come, the calamities of the second coming. it would be good to cross reference that with doctrine covenants section 45 and which is a big second coming section, right? Which is a big second coming like this one, but I would do do doctrine cunance 45 versus 66 to 71 because listen to what it says about this city of New Jerusalem section 45, let me get there myself, scroll scroll.

This is another big long section. And there's a footnote there for D&C 4566 and then say 64 through 66, you're saying go even longer. I'd say go even longer and I'll show you why. This is what it says starting in 66. And it shall be called the it that pronoun there is this city of Zion or this place. It shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of,

and look at these words, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the most high God. And the glory of the Lord shall be there and the terror of the Lord shall also be there. And so much that the wicked will not come into it and it shall be called Zion. And it shall come to pass among the wicked that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needsfully design for safety. And there shall be gathered unto it. Here's that connection to section 29

verse 8 and 9 there. There shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven. And it shall be the only people that shall not be a war one with another. And it shall be said among the wicked, let us not go up to battle against Zion. For the inhabitants of Zion are terrible. Wherefore, I like that. Like these guys are intimidating, you know, or they're powerful. They see Hank and his chickens and they're like, we are not going to fight against those guys.

How can we possibly, I was going to say, can we put the BYU football and rugby team? That's right. Yeah, right. Right on the, as the guards over the front gates of Zion. And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations. And then look at this line, and shall come to Zion singing with songs of ever-lasting joy. You know, things like singing, joy, peace, safety, refuge, glory. Those are important to remember in this context of second coming, calamities, preparing for the second coming, building the city of New Jerusalem. So it's just a really good cross reference to go there with section 2889. And you're kind of prepping us for the difficult

versus whereabouts to read. That's right. You know, the beast of the forest, the devouring us up and the sun being darkened and the weeping and wailing of section 29. It could, I remember as a kid, I wasn't one to ever get scared, but I remember those verses, oh wow, you know.

Oh, this is intense. This is intense scripture. I absolutely remember verse 18 and flies in your face falling off. And I thought I saw something like that in Indiana Jones in the guy melted in front of the Ark of the Cove. That's like that thing in the doctor. No, the first one, the Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Oh Raiders of the Lost Ark. He opens up the Ark of the Cove in his face melts off. I thought that looks like that verse. I was pictured these gigantic flies, like flies the size of small dogs picking people up. Hey, I mean, 2020 was really something, but when they announced we have murder hornets in Oregon. I thought, good heavens.

Tony, you read section 29 verse 13, to be with me that we may be one. That is John 17 language. Oh yeah. The great intercessory prayer. I've frequently told my students, if you want to know your worth, do you wonder about your worth? Go to John 17, 24.

The Lord can ask His Father for anything. And what does He want? He says, Father, I will that they also whom thou hast given me. That's you and I, those who have received him by our agency, right? I want them with me where I am. So I've told my students, the Lord could ask for anything. What does he ask for? He asks for you.

Yes, for you. He wants you there. And I've said, what does he see in you? I don't know. I don't know. But apparently he sees something that we don't know. I don't know. But apparently he sees something that we don't see. Apparently, it will not be heaven to him if you're not there. And that screams to me of love, of right, of how much the Lord loves us.

And as much as scary as these next verses are going to be, as long as we keep his love in mind, I think we are going to be, as long as we keep his love in mind, I think we're going to be okay. Yeah, back to Zion. Joy, lift up your hearts, be glad. And that'd be important too, for those, especially those who have younger children, or for anybody who, rightly so,

gets nervous about some of the prophecies prior to the second coming, focus in on those positive verses. The Lord always seems to give a positive message with it as well. Before we get into these verses, can I tell you a quick story? I was teaching a class on the second coming, Matthew 24 and 25, the Olivet Discourse, and a girl, a student of mine at BYU, she just started crying and she was really crying and I thought, oh, I have that effect on people, right? Just really make people

sad. And afterwards, I just, you know, as she was putting her stuff away, I said, hey, I'm so sorry. If I said something that offended you, I said that, that happens to me all the time, I'm so sorry. And she said, no, no, it's not you. I am just so scared of the second coming. Like I am so scared of it. And I had never, you know, that I never, like I said, when I was younger, I just found these verses pretty cool, right? And but she was so scared.

And I said, I said, what scares you? She just said, I just don't wanna be alive for the second coming. I just rather not be here. Can you imagine what it would be like to be here during all of that? And we had a funny conversation. I told her a story. So here we have, this is like story inception.

I'm going to tell you story in a story. But Elder Holland once met a missionary who said, it was very serious to the Elder Holland. And he said, Elder Holland are these the last days. And Elder Holland said, he was very serious to the Elder Holland, and he said, Elder Holland are these the last days, and Elder Holland said, son. I may not know much. Yeah, he said, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even I know the name of the church. And we are the church of Jesus Christ of last day saints.

We are in the last days and I asked her, I said, how do you feel like living today, living right now? She said, oh, I like right now. I said, well, you're in the middle of it. You're in it. You are in it. This isn't a future idea.

This is, we are right in the middle of all this and I said, and how you doing? She said, go ahead and I said, yeah, you're doing your homework, you're dating, you're, you're, yeah, why? Why are you doing so well? And it was the knowledge that she had of the Lord. And, and I really believe that, Tony, that we, that the Lord's love and confidence in us and his atonement will keep us, it will be like in the eye of the hurricane. Calm, calm, peaceful, and as we watch this unfold around us. The Lord says, that great day, the sun will be darkened. This is where things

get a little sketchy. The moon shall be turned to blood. Stars fall from heaven. Greater signs in heaven above and the earth beneath weeping and wailing among the hosts of men, hail storms, destroying crops. Let's see, I don't know if we want to keep going. Stop me any time. Keep going, brother. I will take vengeance upon the wicked, for they will not repent, for the cup of mine indignation is full, but for behold, my blood, not cleanse them if they hear me not.

All right, the Lord God will send flies upon the face of the earth. They will eat the flesh and shall cause maggots to come in upon them. That's disgusting. Their tongue shall be stayed, their flesh shall fall from their bones, eyes from their sockets, beasts of the forest, devouring them up. Now, I'm really getting into this, you guys. The horror of the whole earth, the great and abominable church will be cast down into fire. This is very similar to Nephise vision. Don't you see that there? Of the ending of the great and spacious building, the great and abominable church.

Same thing in my eyes, exact same thing. He says, and the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and passed away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth. That reminds me of the book of Revelation where the Lord says, we're going to replace the secular satanic system with a celestial economy, a celestial, a celestial government. All right guys, I'm not gonna keep going on these. Oh, I just wanted you to keep going.

You know, I don't wanna. I'm scaring the children. I know, I think of the children. I've heard of one of your previous episodes, John. I like how you described resting the scriptures. I don't, and wrestling them to fit our own view. I don't want to rest the scriptures here. So forgive me if I do, but I do wonder if these verses

aren't a little bit of what we have learned from section 19, verse seven, where the Lord told Martin Harris, you know, it's not that I'm truly going to dam people for eternity. I say that it's more express as how he says it to work upon the hearts of the children of men. And I almost wonder if I could give a reinterpretation, if I could be so bold, which maybe I shouldn't be. So I apologize for being presumptuous here. If I could reinterpret these verses, I almost wonder if the Lord is being express perhaps to work upon our hearts and almost using some rhetorical devices to catch our attention. But at the end of the, if to somebody up, he's in essence saying, I am going

to get rid of wickedness. I am going to get rid of disobedience. I'm going to get rid of things that are telestial. And there will be some calamity in connection with that and some difficulty with it. But that I'm going to make everything new in the way that it should be. I'm going to get rid of death. I'm going to get it, but that I'm gonna make everything new and the way that it should be. I'm gonna get rid of death, I'm gonna get rid of destruction, I'm gonna get rid of sorrow. So I don't know, I don't know if that's the right interpretation and if I'm wrong, forgive me,

but I do wonder how much of it is rhetoric. I'm with you, Tony. I think oftentimes when we read about the vengeance of the Lord, for me personally, again, I might be resting the scriptures as well, but for me personally, the vengeance of the Lord can be often described as the natural consequences of sin. Right? The Lord's protection, as I break my covenants, the Lord's protection, his hands are off, and I have natural consequences from living,

you know, from breaking the commandments. And for me, when the Lord describes what it's like a life that's breaking the commandments, he's gonna use this language because to him, it's the suffering of his children because they break the commandments. And so I can see this. I like what you call that they're a rhetorical device,

because it's this idea of, let's get their attention and show them. The sin is not the way to go. It will never bring a happy life. For me personally, I don't see the Lord saying, I want to hurt people. I think he's saying you're hurting yourselves, right? Look at verse 17, for they will not repent. They will not repent. They're not taking the escape I've offered. And that makes me wonder, Hank, too. If this is, you know how the book of Mormon talks about, they did not sin ignorantly.

They knew the will of God concerning them. And they will not repent. It sounds like they, their opportunity is there. They know what's going on. I can choose to, look at that. The whole, my blood shall not cleanse them. I want to offer them grace and they will not repent. And I wonder what level of accountability it sounds like people that know better, maybe. I want to offer them grace and they will not repent.

And I wonder what level of accountability it sounds like people that know better maybe. I don't know. I remember Dr. Woodward came in and he said, listen, the justice of God isn't, here comes God to punish you if you don't repent. Yeah, it's withdrawing his spirit. Yeah, it's your, your headed for destruction if God does nothing. If he does

nothing, you are headed towards all of this terrible things. God is once, is the merciful side of this. He's not the justice side. That's the natural consequences of the plan we signed up for. But God is offering us an escape. He's offering us a way out if they will repent. I guarantee this will all change in verse 17 if he says, if they will repent, none of this will happen because it's not about him saying, well, here it comes. I'm so excited for this part. It's him saying, this is where you're headed. If you don't repent, I know how this road ends. Yeah. Going back to verse nine, though, it's, I will burn them up. Say, at the Lord of hosts. It's like, whoa.

And I always love to ask my class because it says they shall be a stubble. I say, what stubble? And everybody goes like this. And I'm like, you weren't raised on a farm, were you? You need to go see Hank and his chickens. But when you burn the corn stalks, what's left? These little stubbles in the ground. And it looks similar to a close-up of this,

but this idea of that day that she'll burn as an oven and now burn them up, I mean, it works, it works expressly on my heart. It works on me too. And I think the Lord says at the end of verse 21, as I live, abomination shall not reign. But those of us who are feeling like, listen, I don't like the justice of verse 21, as I live, abomination shall not reign. Wow. But those of us who are feeling like, listen, I don't like the justice of God. We almost are like Coriantan in the Book of Mormon.

I don't like the idea of it. I think it's unjust. I'm just suffering. Yeah. I don't think anybody should have to suffer. I don't think that there should be any justice at all. And the Lord saying, this is the why. I don't want my children to suffer,

but I cannot, will not allow a bombination to reign. I can't allow sin to reign. Who should really, who should reign? That's a great line to kind of, that's his motive. That's his motive is I don't want this, these abominable things to rain and happen. I think all of us understand that his parents, right?

I don't want you to suffer, but what's more important to me is that sin doesn't run your life and control your life. That's why we have rules. That's why we have got sequences in my house is I don't want you to suffer. My kids have heard me say this a lot when we get an arguments or fights within our family. I'm sorry to admit that happens, but I always love to tell them, this is not you against you or your mom against you or dad against you or this is Satan against all of us. And we are together and we don't want a combination to reign.

We don't want contention to rain. I like that how you brought that out, Hank, but this is all of us, against the adversary trying to get right with God, apply his grace. So we will repent so that his blood can cleanse us like in verse 17. The law of justice is powerful. And I think the savior describes it in the New Testament as a wolf coming for sheep. Right? We got nothing. If we're these little sheep and here comes the law of justice, what are we going to be? Like, man, right? You got nothing. You're dead.

The chickens, wings aren't big enough to hold them too. You're gone. You're a goner. So the idea is that we have a savior who is willing to step between us and the law of justice. And I think what we're reading here in section 29 is this is this is you without a savior. Yeah, that's that's mosaic. What, mosaic 15, a benedite says, standing but twist us and justice. I just love that line that I'm going to take the brunt of justice. I'm going

to turn an extend mercy to you. That's, that's something too. Just to focus in on is that the savior is saying, I am here to conquer all these problems for you. Back to like him standing in between, he's, he not only conquers sin and death as, as we know, but he also conquers, he will get rid of all the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve. All pain, all injustices, all sorrows, all unfairness, all suffering, all of this will be conquered by him. And maybe that's part of everything he's going to conquer. Yeah, I think so, Tony. I think this is just kind of opened up my mind a little bit as this idea of the Lord saying, I will conquer all of this.

I do want you to have an accurate view of what I'm conquering. So let me describe it this way. Yeah, and you almost wonder too, it's hard to know the intent of these verses exactly other than they do work on our hearts, but like in verse 18, where it's talking flies and maggots, you know, is this just a way of saying, we're all going to die. And we're all going to our mortal lives will come to an end and our bodies will decompose

because we're of the flesh. And and God without a savior, without Him, we have no hope in that. Those are sorrowful verses, but with Him, He will conquer all of that for us, and will raise us back up into bodily glory. And so it's hard to know what verse 18, 19, 20 is talking about, but I do like that idea of, I am not going to let a bombination rain. I am not going to let the effects of the fall win out. I am going to win out, and I'm going to let righteousness rain as a whole. You know, what I'm intrigued about Tony is, you mentioned, you know, who had read the whole Bible from cover to cover back then, because who had read the whole Bible from cover to cover back then, because I was looking up footnotes on here,

and section 29 is a lot of footnotes, meaning it's doctrinally rich, you know, but the very bottom footnote in the first column is Zechariah 1412 about some of these, you know, insects and stuff, and this is what it says in Zechariah 1412, this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet,

their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it sounds like a restatement of that. I guess that's why the footnote is there. And it's intriguing to see me when you said that, I thought, man, how many biblical phrases come out in the doctrine of covenants that perhaps Joseph Smith hadn't even read?

I mean, that's an intriguing thought to say, but how consistent the Lord is in his language to us. As I've read President Benchon Teach about the fall, I've heard Elder Holland Teach about the fall. And I think part may partly, I'm trying to understand, you know, the graphic nature of this is, I like to what you said, I will not allow the fall to win. We don't really understand why we need Christ

until we understand the fall. Almost like I'd very second, if I nine, chapter where Jacob says, you wanna know what life is like, if there's a fall and no atonement, these verses feel like that. That's a great connection. I think I haven't memorized the President Benson statement.

Just as a man does not desire food until he is hungry, so a man does not desire Christ until he knows why he needs Christ, and no one knows why he needs Christ unless he understands the doctrine of the fall, and its effect upon all mankind. And no book in the world explains this vital doctrine nearly as well as the Book of Mormon. That's one of my favorites because to me, it also helps explain the restoration. We don't understand the restoration unless we understand the apostasy.

Otherwise, here's another take on the Bible. Well, and even on a broader scale too, back to this article of faith, the Zion, the New Jerusalem and the built-up of the American continent, that Christ will reign personally upon the earth, and that this earth will be renewed. Another word we could use is restored. Tony, one of the things I've always loved that I have only heard from restoration scriptures is the idea that things were created spiritually and then temporarily. And it's kind of like a blueprint or an architect would do something completely to every detail

before he would do the actual physical thing. And you said before this part of this might come from the book of Moses, the JST part, and then we've got it here. Do you want to speak to those verses? Yeah, I mean, 31 to 34 is all this spiritual temporal atom. There's two contexts here. Again, one is that Joseph is just translated these ideas in Moses, where the Lord created all things spiritually before they were temporarily upon the face of the earth, which is a great concept that the Lord plans all of this out first.

Everything it's seen before he brings it into existence physically as a whole. But it's also tied into the idea of where these elders that this revelation is spurred from are having also disagreements over Adam's transgression and temporal commandments or temporal laws as a whole. And I just love in verse 34, where the Lord says, very I say, and do all things are spiritual. So he kind of plays this both,

like, hey, I created things spiritually before they were temporarily, but remember everything's spiritual to me, that all things are spiritual and not at any time have I given unto you law, which was temporal, neither any man nor the children of the man, neither Adam, your father whom I might create it.

So he kind of ties it back together. But I just think there's a really good and powerful application here that all the laws, not only does God application one, we could talk this, plan things out, think about, think them through before you bring them into existence. But this application that God doesn't give us commandments that are temporal. I won't tell you who it was, but he was a member of the 70 at the time. He's now one of the 12. And I had a chance to meet him, and at the time I was doing a lot of administrative work, when I was a principal for seminaries and institutes of religion at this time when I met him, and he said, what do you do? And it's like, what classes do you teach?

And I said, oh, I just do a lot of administrative, most days. And when I said that, he kind of rebuked me for using the word administrative, and he said, I've never forgot this, he said, exact quote, never underestimate the spiritual value of doing temporal things well, is what he said to me. It has resonated with me, and it'd be, it's great to have that discussion of commandments that we might view as more temporal. It's actually, in my opinion, kind of a false dichotomy to try to divide them up between, oh, that's a in my opinion, kind of a false dichotomy to try to divide them up between, oh, that's a temporal commandment, that's a spiritual commandment.

What do you mean by that? What do people say? Like, because I've never heard that in those words, but how might someone else say something like that? Like temporal commandments, you know, things that, let me give you one, for example, the Word of Wisdom. You know, I actually think we do a little bit of a disservice to the But let me give you one, for example, the word of wisdom. I actually think we do a little bit of a disservice to the word of wisdom when we only explain it as a health code, a purely temporal thing. Like, that God gave this law for only temporal reasons.

Now, He did give it for some temporal reasons, because of conspiring man, and He does promise us health and our navel and That we'll run and not be wary walk and not faint. You know that the the word of wisdom was given in context of the school the prophets Trying to help them become more holy. I like to say that the word of wisdom is not a health code It's a holiness code if the word of wisdom was purely temporal if it was purely about help the Lord would have said you know Thou shalt do cardio five days a week You know that thou shalt do cardio five days a week. You know, thou shalt plank. We can all be grateful that there wasn't that hard isn't in there. That thou shalt not eat excessive refined sugars.

But he doesn't. He, he tells us, and I know this is not a sect on the word of wisdom, but this is an example of spiritual and temporal. He tells us to refrain from some common substances in society for a number of reasons, coffee tea tobacco alcohol. But the problem we get into sometimes is we want to only explain them temporarily. And so he say things like, well, we're not supposed to drink coffee because it's not good for us. And then a study comes out and says, you know, drinking a mild amount of coffee can be good for your body or a mild amount of alcohol or studies have shown that a little bit of tea every day does this for you. And then we get stuck.

As if it's just been debunked. As if the word of wisdom is now debunked because we're only talking about it temporarily. I remember one time I was with a group of scholars as presenting at a conference in the South in the Southern United States, and they served us, I sit around a table with about 10 of them or so. PhD scholars from all over the nation

at this academic conference, and they served us in the South sweet tea. All your Southern listeners out there are no exactly what I'm talking about. And when they brought the South sweet tea, you know? All your Southern listeners out there, no exactly what I'm talking about. And when they brought us the sweet tea, I didn't drink mine and I was just sipping on my water. And I had a shirt on with a Y logo. And someone said, oh, are you a professor at Yale?

And I said, no, I'm a professor at BYU. And Harvard, man, myself. Hot, yeah. Well, what was interesting is when they noticed I wasn't drinking, they said, oh, do you, so are you a Mormon? And I said, yes. And the follow-up question, they said,

well, the Mormon's not drink tea. And I said, no, we don't. Now, what's the next question? Why not? Why not? And right when they said that, all 10 people turned at me. You know, 10 professor PhDs looking right at me to want to explain why Mormons won't drink sweet tea. Now, if I had gone into a purely temporal explanation,

I would have missed it. So luckily I was smart enough that I said something like, well our founding prophet Joseph Smith gave a revelation, telling Latter-day Saints to abstain from some common substances in the world, like tea and coffee and alcohol and tobacco. And we believe those can benefit our bodies. I said, but equally, maybe even more important,

if we can learn to abstain from those things and develop self-discipline and self-control, we think that can we can learn to abstain from those things and develop self-discipline, self-control, we think that can also help us to abstain from more grievous actions and sins that could really harm our lives and our standing with God. And it helps us develop the kind of characteristics that we think help us live a more holy life as a whole. And when I said it that way, they all went, oh, that makes sense. Instead of getting into a debate about why T. Isr is not good for you. So that's a really long story, but hopefully illustrates how God is trying to teach right here. All things

are spiritual. And we have to look at them through how their spiritual commands and not merely temporal ones. I like that a lot, Tony. All things are spiritual. And not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal, meaning they might have temporal benefits. Yeah, yeah. And some of these things I'm telling you

might have temporal benefits, but that's not why we're doing this. That's not why we're doing it. Yeah, the Lord is much more interested in our spiritual success than our temporal success. I've always told my students that, you know, it's not about health, it's at least partially about agency.

You gave a much more beautiful and eloquent answer, but you said it more beautifully, but I've absolutely have to have this drink today or whatever, it became an agency issue, but I love the way you said it. And it makes my mind wanna go, what are some other commandments like that? You know, fastings and other one.

Think they can. That's a good one. Every fast Sunday where we. Sure feels temporal. Sure feels temporal is right. But, you know, John Hilton and I one time in an early publication we had, you know, we wrote that if you can learn to say,

no to this serial in the morning, you'll be able to learn to say, no better to the temptation at night. If you can, you know, turn off a, or, you know, not touch the steamy mill, you won't touch the steamy show, so to speak. You know, there's a connection there. There's always a spiritual component. And I'm not even sure we can divide them. These things that seem temporal. Yeah, I like that. I've often thought my children have asked me about fasting

and one thing I've said, which kind of leads to the spiritual, is we get to put ourselves in someone else's shoes, the shoes of the hungry, right? And that seems very like the Savior himself. I want to walk in your shoes. I want to experience your situation so I know how to help you. And so for me, I learn a lot of, I don't know, empathy, you're fasting, which is, you know, I might say, oh, it's really helping my body, which it probably is, but more importantly, it's helping my character, my spirit. And it's important, you know,

we don't want any listeners out there to think that the temporal benefits aren't there. I'm not undermining that at all. Right. But I think the Lord Himself is trying to say, you, we need to get past the temporal and see the deeper spiritual benefits from these temporal commands.

And here we've got an explanation, but what about the days when they didn't have an explanation and we look at Father Adam, why are you offering sacrifices? Well, it's this temporal thing that, you know, he told me to do it. He didn't even know. And there was a spiritual benefit

from doing what the Lord asked him even when he didn't know. Why? And I wanna go back to, benefit from doing what the Lord asked him even when he didn't know why. Yeah. And I want to go back to, I think maybe our listeners just restate what that member of the 70 said, because I know there's a lot of folks and callings out there that feel like I'm doing so much planning and calendaring and paperwork. And it can, it can feel kind of draining, and maybe they feel like they're not making a difference. Can you say that again?

Yeah. His line was never underestimate the spiritual value of doing temporal things well. And ever since then, I've just continued to be the worst administrator on the case of it. But I'm focusing on the spiritual value of how poorly I do temporal things. Tony, I really, I really like that because I have a tendency to be, I think a little bit like you in that I'd be a, uh, a ministeria, which I will no longer use that term, uh, because of you. Oh, the other term I hear at church, oh, I was volentalled. I used to read and I still do somewhat. I really like, you know, self-help, self-motivation speakers and books and things. But probably the

one thing that helps me more temporally and spiritually is this idea of verse 31, before I create things, temporarily I create them spiritually. He says it again in verse 32, first, spiritually, second, temporarily. I think he says it again in verse 35. There's a little bit of a component of the temple there,

that we're going to spiritually create something, and then go physically create it, then we're going to return in report, then we're gonna, we're gonna spiritually create something and then go physically create it, then we're gonna return in report. Then we're gonna spiritually create something, then we're gonna physically create it, we're gonna return in report. And then Elder Bednar, I can't remember how many conferences ago, he said that our prayers can be that way. And this little insight changed, not only my prayers, so spiritually, but changed my day, temporarily, physically. In that he said, in my morning prayers, I create my day spiritually. I go through the whole thing and I create my day spiritually. And then at the end of the day, I return and report, how much did my physical creation look like my spiritual creation?

Some days, there's not a lot, it doesn't look like it, because I'm going, help me be a patient parent, and I envision that in my mind. Help me be a good teacher, help me drive as a normal person would drive, help me, all these things, all these things, not to get upset, not to be impatient, and I kind of envision my day spiritually. And then I try to go do that day.

And some days, it looks kind of all right. Right? Usually those are the days I spend by myself. But, but when, you know, sometimes I'll get frustrated with a child and then that night, as I return in a report, I didn't, you know, we put those two things side by side and it helps me know, number one, what to repent of. And two, then it helps me connect my morning prayer

and my evening prayer together. It was, let's spiritually create something, let's return and report on the actual physical creation. That little principle to me changed everything, and I think you see it here in section 29. The Lord is saying this idea, I want you to try this. Create things spiritually,

then physically, and then let's see how they work. He said, I don't want you to just, that's not the whole purpose, right? It's not just temporal or carnal or sensual. That's not what this is about, but it's about learning to be a creator like him. Please join us for part two of this podcast.