Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 46-48 : Dr. Ron Bartholomew Part I

Episode Date: May 1, 2021

Have you ever felt everything you tried was going wrong? In these sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Fantastic Four (Parley, Ziba, Oliver, and Peter) are called on a mission that may have seemed like a failure but was instrumental in creating a worldwide church. Join Hank and John with Dr. Ron Bartholomew as they discuss how the Church is open to all, how God doesn’t have any favorites, and why we all have spiritual gifts (and what they may look like).Shownotes: https://followhim.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their come-follow me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello my friends, my name is Hank Smith. I am here with my marvelous co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John. I'm so excited to hear the adjective each week. It reminds me of a church history cookbook, actually, called a marvelous work in a blender, which, so thank you, Hank.

Marvelous work in a blender. Oh, I've never heard of that. I've known you for a long time and I have not heard that joke before. We are hosts of Follow Him. Thank you for joining us. We are excited to be here today. Every week we interview one of the church's great minds. And this week we have with us a friend of mine. We've been friends since the 1900s. His name is Dr. Ron Bartholomew. John, tell us about Dr. Bartholomew.

Oh, I'm so glad to be here with Ron because this goes back into the, like you said, the 1900s and our EFY days and everything. And just so glad to have Ron here. And this bio, he's going to help us if anything in here is outdated. But he has been an instructor at the Orm Institute of Religion for a long time. So that's the institute, you know, as part of Utah Valley University, where he teaches Christian history, LDS church history courses in the standard works. He's received bachelor's

and master's degree from BYU and a doctorate in the sociology of education from the University of Buckingham in London, England. He's published in scholarly journals, articles, academic journals in the United States and Europe, written several chapters and various published columns. His research interests include 19th century missionary work in Victoria and England, as well as the sort of topics in ancient scripture and church history. He and his wife, Kristen have seven children and 11 grandchildren, and I just want to add, just get on Google and Google Desirett News, October 16th, 2020, or maybe just put Ron Bartholomew. There's a wonderful article in there about his personal experiences in the book of Job. And you will love that and you'll get to know

Ron a little bit better if you look that up. Ron, welcome to follow him. Thank you. It's good to be here. Ron, we have had you and I have had conversations over the last probably 25 years that have literally changed the way I teach the way I think about the gospel. I'm sure that you have these type of conversations all the time. In fact, I think there are thousands of UVU students listening to this episode precisely because they saw your name on on the episode list. So we are so excited to be here. What let's jump in? Let's jump in and see see what happens here. I'm excited to learn from you wrong. We're studying this week, sections 46 through 48 of the Doctrine and Covenants. They're all received in March of 1831. The Church is almost a year old. It's now made its first major move to Ohio. They don't know that they have a lot of major moves in front of them. As a result of four missionaries called to preach the Native Americans,

Oliver Caldery, Party Pratt, Peter Whitmer, Jr. and Ziba or Ziba Peterson, depending on who he asks. Joseph has lived in Ohio now for two months. Members are still coming from New York to join in. So Ron, now with that introduction, what have these first two months been like in Ohio and what leads up to these sections? Well, the first two months in Ohio have been cold.

Joseph moved February 1st, 1831, so they've been cold. And he's been trying to gather the saints the best he can. Most of the saints went right until May, so it's a still march, and so the most of the saints are still coming from New York. But he's living with, he's moved into the home, the home and store of the Whitney's, the Whitney's, and he is doing the translation of the Bible. So he's been very busy there in Curtain Ohio, testing the Bible, getting them people new and waiting for the saints

to come from New York. So a lot's going on. Yeah. And he's meeting all these converts. They've got to be so excited. How would you like that, John? You join the church and then the prophet moves into your town, right? That would be interesting. He's moving here. Yeah. So those of you missionaries out there,

if you could just baptize full cities, maybe, maybe we'll move the church there. In addition to that, he was only 25 years old. So a lot of people were surprised by that. He was only 25 years old. So a lot of people were surprised by that. He's a kid. He's, I mean, I remember thinking I was 25 and oh man, I had it. I knew what was happening. I looked back going, what was wrong with you?

John, what were you gonna say? I just, I like this idea of, we've heard several times is that three times so far, go to the Ohio. It's like, and now there's so many there. I'm just wondering, this maybe was all in the design of the Lord all along, but so many because of that mission to the Lamanites, that's what it was called. But the the outcome was really all these converts in Ohio. Do you think the Lord moved them there because there were so many converts there? Or did he want them there all along? I guess that's hard one to answer but it's a bulk of members in Ohio now

The bulk of the members are in Ohio, but more than that Ohio is going to become the head quarters of the church So you got two two headquarters now you got Pennsylvania, which is the capital United States at this time It's been first watching to see You got Pennsylvania and you've got Ohio and you've got two things going on at the same time, you've got the United States of America being started and you've got the church being started and the churches, you know, capital moved to Salt Lake but not for five years

and the Nacers capital moved to Washington, you see. But for the meantime, this is a place where we're starting a new nation, a new, not for the meantime, this is a place where we're starting a new a new nation, a new, not just a city, a nation. John, that's not something we have talked about a lot on the podcast so far is what's happening in the country at the time. It's Andrew Jackson is the president of the United States. So that's fascinating.

Ron, thank you for bringing that up. I think John, that's something we need to keep incorporating is the idea of like, what's happening in the country? Because Ron's right, it's not, the United States does not look like the United States of 2021 by any means. And if we don't keep that in mind,

we might lose, we might lose sight. Yeah. I remember sister Susan East. Stenblack bringing up at the beginning of one of these. Now there's 26 states in the United States. It's like, oh yeah, whoa, yeah, that's true. And sometimes I love to show, I used to have this big fold out book

called a timeline of world history or something. And I love to show the youth this long time of apostasy and then to show how quickly once the United States, once the Declaration of Independence happened, Constitution bill of rights ratified 1791 and 14 years later. I mean, in this tiny space on my chart, Joseph Smith born Sharon Vermont. And so I do think it's a good thing to talk about the United States coming to be religious freedom guaranteed. It didn't seem to go so well in all of that and stuff.

And how quickly those coincide. The other thing we can't forget is Joseph Smith is also doing his work on the translation of the Bible. That's right. He had begun to work on the Christian Bible and he first got to first got there and they're going to work on it for several years now. Right. And they kind of switched. I mean, at the end of section 45, it was kind of like jump to the new testament because he had been doing old

testament. That's right. Section 45 was all that Matthew 24 language. Yeah. That's right. Let's jump all that Matthew 24 language. That's right. Let's jump right into these verses. Ron, what can you tell us about the Lord's message to the saints in section 46? Well, a lot. A lot.

I'm with you, want. Okay, give us all of it, Ron. I love it. The third quarterly general conference of the church was held at the Home of Peter Women's Senior at Fayette on January 2, 1931. So just in January of that year, they had the third quarterly general conference.

And at that conference, they said that they've got to move to Ohio. So late in January, they made the trip. Joseph and Emma do, but with the sleep provided by, you know, no, guess who Joseph night senior. Emma had moved seven times in the four years here in Merida. It was six months pregnant and was not designed to move again. She didn't want to move, but she does anyway.

Between the end of January in the middle of May, most of the New York Saints sold the positions in migrating 300 miles to Kurt and Ohio and Jason Arias for that, you know, to begin. And this revelation was received on Tuesday, 8th of March, 831. In the beginning of the church, while in here, infancy, the settlers used to exclude unbelievers from their meetings, which caused Senator Marvel and converse about the matter because of what it was written in the book of Mormon, including 30, 30, 22 estates. And you shall not forbid any man coming in and to you when you shall meet together. So they they didn't know what to do. And so Joseph Smith acquires the Lord and receives section 46 that he actually received section 45.

And he told the members of the church that they should allow everyone into the 10 meetings the members of the church that they should allow everyone to attend their meetings. If the wants to, anyone who's sincere and but they should not provide the sacred for them, that's still for the members of the church, but they should at least allow them to attend their meetings. That's interesting because on our buildings right now is a big sign that visitors will welcome. At the time, so they were saying, no, you got to be a member if you want to come. But they changed it. This was really, this really changed that. But you know, I can see that that's a legit question. We, we in earlier podcasts talked about them setting up a damning a little river to have baptisms and people come and mocking them

during the baptism. Throwing rocks, the whole night yard. Rooting the whole meeting and you're like, you know, let's just have our members here, because we want to have a lovely spiritual experience here. And you wouldn't want people coming and antagonizing you during the meeting. I can see why this would be a good question to ask. It was, but despite their feelings of wanting to keep people without the Lord says, no, bring them all in.

We need to have everybody that wants to come, be able to come. And so that's what they did. It's very, very inclusionary. You know, where the Lord's like, no, no, no, we're not, we're not an exclusive club here. All right. There's, we're not, yeah, you got to, we're opening up the doors and visitors are welcome. I wonder if, I wonder if today we do that a little bit. We kind of create, we're kind of an exclusionary group and we don't say, hey, the doors are opened to anyone. Hey, that's my pew. This has always been our family's pew.

Yeah. The problem today is we have the sentence is visitors welcome, but if someone walks in, it's not dressed up or it's, you know, not well dressed or some other thing, we, uh, we shed them a little bit and it's really a problem. Yeah, I think the Lord might say the same thing, you know, uh, don't cast out anyone from your public meetings. And we can cast them out, maybe not by picking up and tossing them out, but by the way we, but hey, treat them. Yeah, by the way, we treat them. Treat them. We talk or don't talk to them.

Cedar don't sit by them. Don't welcome them. It's really a problem. Yeah. The church is not the temple. You don't need a temple recommend to come to church. No. In fact, you don't need anything to come. Should you just need to come just come? So after telling them to invite everyone to the meetings, the Lord says in verse 7 and 80, he commends them that they should do all things with the parents, he's giving them

that we should do, by the spirit, or the spiritual devil's, the prince of man, and these two preachers of this idea of them being deceived by the devil. And that's where we really want to avoid. And so, really the context for this revelation on the gifts of the Spirit is to teach them how to avoid being deceived. Okay, so that's what leads to this next part, which is what section 46 is pretty much known for. For is not being deceived seduced by evil spirits or doctrines of devils or the commandments of men. And so that there's that

beware right there in verse 8. Yes. Beware the G.R. Knight deceived. And many, did you mean I'd be deceived? See courtesy of the best gifts. So the reason that they're given the gifts is to not be deceived. Very good. And they're in new church. I would imagine that, you know, where we are today, we've got pretty solid footing in a lot of these things, but being brand new, I mean, yet they're still not a year old.

They might not have the anchors we have to know what's from the Lord and what's not. That's right. You know, when we talk about the burned over district of where Joseph Smith grew up, I mean, what would it be fair to say there's just still a great feeling of revival going on and people getting excited about things. And I've wondered if the gift of tongues isn't one of those that the Lord wanted to address

right away. Probably. Um, the saints were interested in getting all these extra extra gifts and not so much much the solid gifts. And so I think part of the reason for section 46 is that to teach the Saints no settle down. Let's let's seek after the things that will really make a difference in the end. I like that settle down. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really really part of the problem. Yeah. There's a little too much, a little too excited, which you know, with for a young church, you would think that's probably a good problem to have rather than

trying to get you to, you know, light a fire end of you. The idea is like, okay, okay, this is good. This is good. Everyone, let's set up some boundaries. So it's really nice is the Lord starts right off with the, the, the primary gift, which is knowing him, knowing that he lives. That's the first gift that he mentions. That's verse 13 and 14. 13 and 14, okay. Yeah. To someone who's given by the Holy Ghost, to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is crucified for the sins, or there's the first gift he mentions. And to those who are given to believe in their words, they may also have eternal life and they can take it to your faithful. And so I think the Lord wanted them to understand the first key, the most important key,

because knowing that he is the Son of God and that he is the Redeemer of the world, that's the best place to start. You know, Ron, as I've talked to people who go through difficulties with doubt and faith, you know, faith, Christ, he's in things. Often times, I first remind them, do you believe in Christ? Right? Let's get centered here on something. Because if we're not centered there with this first gift that you said, this is what he lists very first, we can build off of that. Right? We can build off of that. I think in this recent conference, President Nelson was kind of saying that same thing, right? It was, focus your faith on Christ, build your faith on Christ.

And I think more and more of it, we're realizing the Book of Mormon's idea of a firm foundation of faith, right? To build on is this very first gift. I agree. Elder Lawrence Corbridge gave a terrific talk at BYU called Stand Forever. I want to say 2019. He talked about distinguishing primary questions from secondary questions and it's just a really great talk. You can just go to speeches.bYU.edu and find it. But I have my students read that for extra credit. I want them to notice they're millions of questions and they're good questions. But make sure you focus on the primary questions

first and that's definitely one of those, verse 13. Reminds me of what Alma said, I think it was to the people of Gideon. If I remember right, he in Alma 7 7 is that who's he speaking to people of Gideon? And he says, um, this is Alma 7, 7, um, behold, there is one thing which is of more importance than they all, right? There is one thing that is more important than all the other questions. And that is, the time is not far distant that the Redeemer, Liveth, and come with among his people. So to tie in here, section 46 verse 13, the Lord is saying, okay, that's the one thing. We're going to start with gifts right here is the gift to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It was crucified for the sins of the world. And then 14 is an interesting

addition to that. Don't you think? I think it is. I think it's probably one of the least intersid verses in the scriptures. Verse 14 teaches, Twitter is given to believe in their words. They may have eternal life and they think you can be in favor. I don't think everyone's supposed to have this magnificent witness of Christ like the apostasy of I think most of us are just supposed to believe their words. And I think that's the important thing that will lead us to eternal life. John, you've talked to me about this before. What do you think about this verse? Because you were saying we've got to make sure

we understand this because some people might end up in a little bit of a nervous rack about their testimony. Yeah, they may think they have to have the first gift and I think we all want that. But to be able to believe on someone's words, I think a beautiful example of that is as we go through the book Mormon, Lehigh has a testimony.

I mean, look at this family as they start. Lehigh has a vision, has a testimony. Nephi kneels down. I need to know, is my father leading us right? Nephi gets his answer. And then he just tells Sam, his older brother, and Sam just believes him. And when I see those two, I think that's Nephi, that's Sam.

And Sam was strong, but he just believed Nephi when Nephi told him. And he just believed him. That's wonderful. And he had the gift to believe Nephi, you're right. And it's fun to watch the others. Saraya sees her sons come back, escaping the dangers of Laban and says, now I know that the Lord hath commanded my husband to flee into the wilderness.

And it's fun to watch the family. And then sadly, those that never really seem to ask in the same way. But so the thing I was talking about with Hank was we know that we were told not to rely on borrowed light, but I've always wondered, this is a spiritual gift. Is this borrowed light or is this a spiritual gift doesn't seem like borrowed light to me? So I'd love to know what you think about that because for many of us, we listen, we watch general conference, and we believe what we're being taught. And that's a gift. Not only is that a gift, that's the gift that the vast majority of the members of the church have. And to live on borrowed light, so to speak, is I think a misnomer in that,

as long as you're depending upon another person's testimony, that's legitimate. That's as good as it gets. And I haven't seen God. I don't know that he lives personally, but I certainly believe the apostles and prophets of my whole life, I believe them. And I believe my testimony is as strong as theirs, even though it comes from a different source. Oh, thank you. I'm thinking of 2013, Elder Jeffrey Arhol and the talk Lord, I believe. Yes. And how you always start with what you know, Lord, I believe helped thou mine unbelief. But remember the story of the boy that came up to him and said, well, I don't know if the church is true, but I believe it is.

And Elder Holland said, I hug that boy until his eyes bulged out. And I reminded him that our articles of faith, I'll start with, I believe, yeah, don't ever be embarrassed. But you only believe, he said, and I got to beautiful talk. And I'm thankful that gift is listed in verse 14. It's the, it's the gift most of the members of church have or at least they're entitled to. And I have it and I'm still the good for it. I would say, John, that the idea of borrowed light is like, well, I'm not going to do anything.

I'm just going to, my parents read the scriptures. Everyone reads the scriptures. Everyone prays. I will. I'll just rely on them. They can say their prayers, they can read there and I'll just do my thing. And then when, when that comes time, you know, major spiritual problems, I'll be, I'll be fine. And you can't do that. You've got to do the work, right? You've got to pray. You've got to be reading.

You've got to be, you know, trying to get close to the spirit. Living on borrowed light might be the idea of, I'm not going to do the work. Yeah, kind of a, kind of a, I want something for nothing maybe. And so I'm hoping those are, I like what we're, where we're going here, those aren't the same thing, believing on the words of others and borrowed light. That's not the same thing. It's not the same thing.

I would say too, to anyone listening who, you know, says, I believe, I believe, like Ron said, I believe in the words of the Apostles and Prophets, I believe the Scriptures. And if anybody challenges that, like, oh, you just believe as if that's something like a step down from a testimony, that's not a step down from a testimony. I think the Lord is clear here in section 46, that is a gift of the spirit. So if you say, you know what, I do believe then you're acknowledging that you have a gift of the spirit. And it's a beautiful thing. It's not a weakness.

And I'm reminded of the verse, doubt not, but be believing. We're told to be believing. Let's keep going here, Ron. Can take us through the gifts of the Spirit. Okay, let's do it. The next gift, so then the Lord starts listening to gifts. He talks about the, to know the differences of administration,

as it will be pleasing to the same Lord even as Lord Will, Suity as much as the Korean and the children of man. This is a difficult language for many people. Let me see if I can help you with understanding just a little bit better. Okay. Elder Russell Pratt said the following, I know he lead the long time ago,

but this is really profound. He said, quote, whenever the Holy Ghost takes up its residents in a person, it not only cleanses sanctifies and purifies him, unfortunately he owes himself to his influence, but also imparts him some gift, intended for the benefit of the self and others. No one who has been born of the Spirit remains sufficiently faithful, as a substitute of a spiritual gift.

So even if we don't understand what all the gifts are, we can still know a note that we have them. A person who's with us, with that, especially gives a lot of practice, has no disparity with God, enjoying him. And so I think the most important thing in these verses that we're reading is that we, that we, that all the power thereby, we're giving them so they, but in blessed the people, they give to the verse 15 is given thus so we can bless others, not to bless ourselves. And that's the important thing to remember in all this is that we we were given these gifts so that we can bless

other people not just for ourselves. I think verse 15 means this is the ability to understand church government and the different functions and roles of the offices of the church and things. That's what it's really talking about. And understand what you think in church government, how church is going to work, and there's reflections and roles in the offices of the church and that's what verse 15 is talking about. I love that because I have noticed that in other people, not in me in any way, shape or form, but I have had church leaders, both men and women who seem to just get the workings of how the church is supposed to work, right? And it just it flows for them. They understand

it and I'm going, what? I, you know, I like to teach. Just stick me in a room and let me teach versus, you know, ask me to run a program and I, I, I, I, I'm going to have to earn that spiritual gift because I, John was a bishop and it amazed me that he could run you, a person can, you know, run a ward. That amazes me because I, I don't, I don't have that gift. Did that come to you, John? I bet you're on. I don't know if you've been bishop as well. Or so, president. And that's gotta be a daunting feeling,

but yet maybe we can have confidence in the Lord can give you the gift of understanding how the church is supposed to work. You know, I'll tell you right now, I was inspired to call counselors that had gifts that were different than mine, that were detail administrative, and I was so blessed by that, because I knew where I didn't have gifts and where I did.

And I'm sure my ward could tell you where I didn't, but it was so nice to have that. And I love what Ron said, and I think it's addressed there in verse 12, that all may be profited thereby. The gifts come under this line, that for the profit of everybody, it's for a blessing of the whole church, not just for some individual to have this gift.

And all of it comes under that heading. I think that's important. When I was the bishop, I literally received this gift, the first 15. When I was released, I lost it, and I could feel it come, and I could feel it go. And so I know that it's a real thing. I wanted to add, if you don't mind, Section 46 has a list of spiritual gifts. But so does Maroni 10. When we think of Maroni 10, we think, oh, Maroni's promise. But it starts with after Maroni's promise, it has spiritual gifts.

And one of the things that helped me understand the phrase, the differences of administration in verse 15 there is Maroni 10. 8. And again, I exhort you my brother in the E. D. 9, not the gifts of God for they are many, and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered. Now, those are the same words just turned around a little bit. The different ways that the gifts are administered.

Oh, okay, I think then I know what the differences of administration means when I look at those two verses together It's footnote of there. You'll see that down there. Roni 108 And that's helpful to put those two lists of gifts side by side and see what you can gain from looking at both of them I think another important thing to do is realize that not everyone has all the gifts It's important for us to recognize that people have other gifts and we have different gifts than they do and we can benefit by all being together in a war or a stake so that we can have people that have to follow all the gifts. Sometimes we see people in the church try to stand up and say, I wait a minute, I've got all the gifts, but that's

a very much a pride approach and it's a wrong approach. And the more humble approach is the approach of, well, I think I may have this gift, but I'm sure you have these are the other gifts. And so I want to hang out with you just like again, can benefit from the other gifts the way the Lord has blessed me to do so. I love this because I think one thing this can do, well, two things actually that I'm thinking that this can do is one, it can help us with our self-confidence because we don't need to start comparing ourselves to everybody else. I can't teach like so and so I can't, you know,

I can't work with the kids like she can, I can't, you know. And the other thing it can do is teach us to be more of a choir, right? Be more of a symphony together and realize that we're, that one of the major purposes, I guess, of us getting together so often is so we can all benefit from each other's gifts. I think in addition to those two things,

which are absolutely critical, I mean, the third thing is to realize that when you receive certain callings, a gift comes with the calling, when you release the yellows that you have to, so it's important for is to realize that when you receive certain callings, a gift comes with the calling. When you release the yellows, the gift. So it's important for us to realize that when we receive a calling, we're going to receive a gift we haven't had before. And that's only there so we can bless other people with it. And so I think as we realize that we're part of this mix that you're described Hank, but also that each calling comes that the service set, service set, a set of gifts. We can bless the world that way. I think that's important too.

That, Ron, I really like this because people can then accept a calling with confidence. Yes, that's it. Knowing that the Lord's gonna give him a gift. Whom the Lord calls the Lord qualifies? Is that right? It's President Monson. President Monson, yeah.

And I was thinking as Hank was talking about a choir, Hank, you've heard me use this marriage seminars over and over, but harmony is being different together. And it's so great to have some bases and some tenors and some baritones and some pranels and some altos. And all together, it makes it beautiful. I would add to that sometimes there's not the jealousy of other people's gifts, but we don't like other people's gifts, right?

They're not like me, therefore they shouldn't be working with the youth, therefore they shouldn't be bishop. I don't think like them. I've noticed that sometimes in the church, especially if we become super, super orthodox, we want to make sure everybody fits a certain mold. And maybe, as we approach the third century of the church, we could hopefully break out of that a little bit and let other people. You sure? So I think it's also important to realize that the Lord is the one who decides who has what gift. People don't get gifts themselves. They receive

gifts in the Lord. And so if I recognize the Lord is the founder, the source of all the gifts helps us have respect for the people and also appreciate working with them. Back in 2003, I think I was on a writing committee for for young men young women manuals. I was with Matt Richardson as a matter of fact that you both know and One of the things they told us that just made me go. Whoa is that the majority of people who would be using these would be new converts who would be teaching from these manuals would have been members for less than two years. And I thought, isn't that fascinating?

And there we go back to that idea. We better make sure the primary doctrines are getting out there because somebody might get a lesson manual think, well, this is all the basic stuff. I want to go out and out somewhere else out on the periphery or something. And it's another emphasis on primary doctors there. And these people who were teachers were just learning the gospel themselves, you know, which was, which was a sobering and kind of a humbling thing to think about. I've had, and I hate to admit this because I admit something I do wrong every episode, John, but there have been times in my life where I've had an elders corn president or a

bishop or a young men's president when we used to have those. And I thought that's not the guy I would choose, right? That's not the guy that I think could do the best job. And I think that's part of don't cast anyone out because you don't like them because they have a spiritual gift. Yeah, according to 46 or the Lord has something in mind. One of the stories I love to tell Hank, you've heard me is at being a 17 year old,

I love this. I love my word and being called to be, and this is a phrase that some of you won't even know. Junior Sunday school of chorister, it would now be the equivalent of primary chorister. At 17. At 17. And I always, I looked right at the bishop and said, I'm a boy, you know, and, And I always, I looked right at the bishop and said, I'm a boy, you know? And I didn't have, I had one younger sister,

but I didn't know how to do little kids. I do now because I've had my own, but I was terrible at this. And all of the other junior studies gold teachers were looking at each other like, who called him? And I was really bad. My mom was face palm in the back on my first week. And we got home and she had been a kindergarten teacher. She would have been a thousand times better

than I was. And she pulled me aside, taught me all these things about how to deal with the kids and how to have them stand up and do an activity song when they got fidgety whatever. Well long story short, I learned a lot from my mom. I did the best I could, but this is the point. Years later, I'm on a mission in the Philippines. We opened an area and the first... We're meeting in our house because we didn't have a church. We opened this area. But other branches from around were a little bit closer to this one. Anyway, 35 people came to our first meeting and as I'm sitting there, I noticed that most of them were children and I thought, I know exactly what to do. I know exactly what to do. And I taught

them songs. I'd like this instead of like this. Everything my mom taught me. I made a poster. I mean, I just, I was all day. I was like, I can't believe this. I know exactly what to do. And for, I don't remember how many weeks, I was handling the kids in primary and teaching them songs, Jesus.

Came to John the Baptist. I didn't have a sing with me. The songbook they used to call it. But they were all in my Baptist. I didn't have a sing with me, the songbook, they used to call it, but they were all in my head. I mean, I still marvel. You can tell, just me telling you about it, I still marvel that, okay, Bishop Sager, you nailed it. That was a, that, thank you,

because we would have, we wouldn't have known what to do. At that point. That's a beautiful story, I love that story. Yeah, and it's really fun to tell because I joke about all the funny things with little kids, but I thought, okay, no one in the ward would have said that was the right guy for the job. A priest, you're going to have 17 year old boy who's worried about being cool in front of the other priests, try to lead the children in songs.

And I didn't feel cool. I promise. But the Lord, and I didn't feel cool. I promise, but. But the Lord, I like what you said there. Don't second guess these, these callings. Yeah. You may think who called him? Well, maybe Bishop Sager knew what was going on. And I believe he did, and I'm really grateful. Really grateful, because I had a blast with those,

with those wonderful little Filipino kids over there and on my mission. That's wonderful. You got to wonder, John, if Bishop Sager's going really? Is he getting this impression? Oh, I know when, when I tell the story, when I tell the story, I always say, Bishop, I'm a boy and I always say, the Bishop said, look, you weren't my first choice either, buster. Get in there and do it. The next verse, the next gift is also a little bit difficult to understand. And again, it's given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations. Whether it be of God or the manifestation of the Spirit, maybe you're in there, maybe a prophet with all. I think the best way to explain this is the gift of the disirsembling God in the devil and that's a void deception.

And I think that's a gift that everybody can have to know which you've gone the devil and avoid deception that way. How do you think that gift is manifest in someone or in just your opinion, how has it been manifest in you to know if something is good or evil? I think it has a lot to do with how you feel with feelings. I think if you're in tune with the spirit, you know if something's not right or not. And I think that gives us one, I think I've been given because I've been able to help a lot of people know that the difference you've gotten in devil, but I think some people don't have that gift. They need help

from people who do. Yeah, I married someone with that gift and I'll be gung ho for something and she'll say something like, well, just, I don't know, it just doesn't feel right to me. And I'm going, oh, no, you gotta be excited. Here we go, we're gonna move for it. And then lo and behold, I find out she was right all along. I can't tell you how many times that's happened.

We've had, let's see, we've had 21 anniversaries. It's probably happened at least 21 times where I was all for something ready to move forward. And she's, she's just going, I don't feel it. It took me a while to figure out she has a gift that I don't. She is a gift. Yes. I just don't want to go past verse 15. I just think this phrase is so helpful. The last phrase in verse 15, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. A teenager growing up pre-internet is in a different place than a teenager growing up in 2021. That's for sure. And the Lord adjusts his mercies according to our conditions. And I'm grateful for that verse.

I've used that a lot in in counseling and letting us know, hey, the Lord knows the kind of world he sent us into. And he knows exactly the kind of world he sent us into. And he knows that my church, when I got my mission call from President Kimball with three million members is a little different than the one today with 16 million and the technological boom and everything. And so I'm grateful that mercies are suited according to different world that we've been sent into. Thank you for bringing that up. John, I really appreciate that a lot. That's very helpful.

Yeah, John, I was going to say that's a life-changing thing. Yeah. The parents to realize that your kids are growing up in a different time, and the Lord adjusts his mercies towards them. That is beautiful. There's some things that teenagers face today that they get involved in that I wasn't even on close to our radar right it was not even right it wouldn't even have been an option right and and the idea that the Lord knows what he's doing he's you know

That that to me John. I think that was that's's a life changing. Oh, I love that verse. And, and Ron, it's funny because we were, when we were teaching EFI for the strength of youth was 19 pages long. The one published in 1990 and I like to show the, the youth that today's is 46 pages and it addresses things that hadn't even been invented. Didn't even exist. Yeah. It didn't exist yet. In the 1990, in the 1990, I have a 1965 for the strength of youth. I found it DI, where it's just amazing how different this world is now.

So I'm grateful the Lord adjusts His mercies, suiting His mercy. I'd love that verse. A kind of the gentleman. That's so good. Okay. Verse 17 and 18 are kind of a, they kind of play against each other. Verse 17 says, is given to some by the Spirit of God to know the word of wisdom. 18 says, to know that it's given the word of knowledge that I'm going to be wise and to have knowledge. I think there's a real key, the difference between wisdom and knowledge in the church. And some people have a lot of knowledge

and some people have wisdom. I think the key is in verse 17, where wisdom is given by the Spirit of God. And I think that that's just something, that we have to recognize. The difference between wisdom and knowledge, because most people are gonna read this Ron and think word of wisdom, section 89 89 but that's not on no.

That's not at all right there's there's no word of wisdom at this point in the church there's no word wisdom so the word of wisdom is being wise right wise. But right there, the word of wisdom is just a phrase, like, here's a word to the wise. And it became a proper name for a section and for a doctrine later on. I really like this. There's a difference between wisdom and knowledge. There's a huge difference. Some of them is a church of knowledge, and you know they have knowledge, but they talk in church and they answer questions and things. Other members of church, by the spirit of God, have the word of wisdom. And that is a different gift. I love to tell the youth. Listen, if any of you lack information,

sure, ask of Google, but if you lack wisdom, that is an entirely different question. And maybe knowledge is true knowledge here. Google will answer you something and there's a chance it might even be true. answer you something and there's a chance it might even be true, but knowledge, true knowledge, and then wisdom. Some people have never been to school, but are very wise. You know, I love them. In verse 16 says, tune in as given the word of knowledge that I'll maybe wise to have knowledge. So wisdom is mentioned in both verses. Oh, I love that. Wise to have knowledge. Reminds me of, it reminds me a little bit of Sydney Rigen versus Joseph Smith. Sydney had a lot of knowledge and he was a benefit to the church. Yes.

Joseph seems to, from the spirit, be getting a lot of wisdom. Yes. I think I put wisdom with good judgment sometimes. Yeah. We're gonna see this play out in the next section which we haven't got to yet. But there's a lot of people in the church this time who have a lot of knowledge,

but so many of them leave the church because they don't have wisdom. All of the calorie, the whimmer brothers, et cetera. And I think having wisdom is really important. If you talk to me twice and have knowledge is important if you're wise first. Man, Ron, that, again, another life-changing idea here, I think, is okay, saying,

which one do I have and which one do others have? And I need to be informed by them in the, you know, whatever, if they're more wise. I'm, you know, because I'm a big information guy. I love to read. I love to gather information. I know Ron, you are too. Ron, you can tell me dates and names of people in church history that I'm going. How do you, how do you even know that?

Right? Um, but that's not wisdom. That's not wisdom. I think wisdom is judgment. It, it's not wisdom. That's not wisdom. I think wisdom is judgment. It's good judgment. And as you said, Ron, wisdom that is fed by and informed by the Holy Ghost, wow, that's the greatest kind.

That's the kind of wise wisdom you don't have. I look around in the world living now and there's so many people that claim to have knowledge. And they come to my house, they come in the phone, they say, I'm leaving the church for the freedom, leaving the church, I've got wisdom, I've got knowledge, but they have no wisdom. And we've got to figure out a way to help the members of the church go back to wisdom and not just knowledge so that they'll stay faithful in the church and realize that God is the author of wisdom, not just knowledge.

Oh, man. Where is it in second Nephi? When they are learning, they think they are. Oh, second Nephi nine. Second Nephi nine is one of those. I call it the O's and woes chapter. Because there's a whole bunch of, oh, the goodness of our God, oh, the greatness of our God,

oh, the plan of our God. And then there's a bunch of woes. Oh, there, I'm going to write section 46 next to this verse because there's a difference when they are learned, they think they think they are wise. They think that's the same thing. And it is not the same thing. Man, I think I've learned too is having a, having a worldly degree or something. And to be learned, it is good. If, right? If they harken. If, if, if, if, big if. Big if. Man, Ron, that's beautiful.

Thank you. Please join us for part two of this podcast. you