Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 46-48 : Dr. Ron Bartholomew Part II

Episode Date: May 2, 2021

We return to discuss why spiritual gifts are given to every person, regardless of Church membership. And our valiant heroes (men and women) wonder if shaking, rolling, and other dramatic acts are from God. We discuss how God blesses us to rise to the challenges placed before us, and Dr. Bartholomew shares a powerful testimony of his love of the Gospel and the Lord, even with his Parkinson’s Disease diagnosis.Shownotes: https://www.followhim.coYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. The next several verses are very short, but they talk about the different gifts. Some is given the faith to be healed, some is having the faith to heal, some is given the working miracles, some is given the prophecy, some of the dissonance periods, some is given the gift, speak with tongues, some of doing triple tongues. And then it says this in verse 26, all these gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God. I think there's a part to recognize if you have one of those gifts, the faith to heal, the faith to be healed,

what America was prophecy, spirit, et cetera. I think it's important to realize that those gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God. They come from God for the benefit of others, not for yourself. And you can lose those gifts as quickly as you can receive them by showing off, by trying to test yourself instead of showing that the gift came from God for the benefit of the children of God. I have noticed as a teacher myself, there's a big difference between the lessons when I think I'm going to

show everybody how much I know versus how can I bless the lives of the people in this room right now. Big difference between those two lessons. I usually walk away if I'm trying to impress, deflated, if I'm trying to bless, I walk away excited. And it's not about me, right? And that's the time I go. It has to not be about you,

it has to be about the people that you're trying to bless. That's what has to be about. That's a good phrase, Hank, to impress or to bless. Fall victim to these things. And we can just do a check, just stop and go, wait, wait, wait, wait, what is my goal here? What's my motive using this gift? Your motive has to be to benefit the children of God. It has to be to bless the God's children. That has to be the motivation.

Do you think, Ron, when the Lord is listing here, 19, 20, 21, 22, all these different gifts? I wonder if he's saying there's lots. Like he's not going to give an exhaustive list. Oh, yeah. That's all. Yeah. Are you familiar with other, with other Ashden's talk about the gifts of the spirit?

Now, that was back in the 1900s, right? It was. So you'll have to remind some of our listeners. He, Marvin G. Ashden, who is the member of the Chrome of the show back then, he gave a talk where he says, this is not all the gifts. He listed some 30 more gifts that are gifts that we can give other people. Again, we have to give other people the gifts that are not for us out there for others to bless and help

with them. And and his point was this list is not comprehensive. It's just it's just the It's just the skeleton really, but we can bless the people in many different ways. It's for this look for ways to bless them. And that's the whole point. The point is we have to look for ways to bless them, for ways to be for the benefit that you're in of God. I see it three times. I see it in verse 12 that all may be profited thereby. I see it at the end of verse 16 that the spirit may be given to every man to profit with all. And I see it in verse 26, all these gifts come

from God for the benefit of the children of God really trying to emphasize that there's there's these aren't for your own individual no grandisement. This is to bless everybody. Just to bless. That's what they're for. Yeah, three different times. I also see in verse 27 where bishops are specifically blessed with the gift of discernment. And which is helpful. I mean, what's one of the titles of a bishop? A judge in Israel. I also think it's important to put it on verse 29 that the presence ahead of the church, the presence church, has every gift. And President Nelson definitely has displayed the many gifts these received since he's become the president of the church. And I think that's a humbling thing for all of us to recognize and to receive and to realize that he has all those gifts. Oof, Ron, I'm glad you brought this up. Well, I want to make two points. Ron, let's go back to 27. John, how do you describe the bishop having

the gift of discernment, yet, bishops aren't perfect. They're going to make mistakes, right? We can't have the expectation that the bishop's going to know everything that's happening, right? And he's going to call the right person to every calling and we can't have that expectation. So I think maybe he has the gift and it's up to each of us

and it's up to the Bishop too to do his best. Is that what I should, is that a message I should get? It, well, Ron can speak to this too, but I just remember how incredibly humbling and inadequate you felt when you had to make really big decisions about individuals, maybe in a membership council or something. And I remember one time knowing a membership council was coming and spending all night, almost hearing the words of the song, who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly? And it's not any job anybody would want really.

But I also remember getting impressions that are not what I would have thought. And I have a testimony that I got help in those times and discern things I would not have discerned. I can say it for sure. I'd love to hear what Ron has to say also having had that calling. I remember two different times for somebody who's two experiences kind of mind

of how I was okay if I share them. The first was I called the young lady to be the, they say president. And and cried and cried and cried so a lot of my office the people on the whole get here but she ended up being the best really state president I'd ever called. I remember another woman that I called to be the really state president and she was planning to move her husband head but you should see where they live in a multi-million dollar house up on the bench

and she purchased this house. And I call it the basically present state. And she was planning on moving. And she accepted the call and was also one of the best ever. And so I think Heavenly Father knows who has those gifts, even if the people don't know that they have them, Heavenly Father knows that they have them. And he bless them to rise up to the occasion

and to the office that they're called to. And those were two marvelous experiences for me. That's beautiful. We've just got to watch where we place our line because sometimes we expect church leaders to have the gift of discernment to a point where they should also be able to pick all the numbers of the lottery, they should never get sick, right?

Where all of a sudden having expectations of them that the Lord doesn't, the Lord never says they're going to know everything, that they're going to make every decision correctly. Because sometimes you call someone to a calling and then something happens and people will blame, you know, they'll say, well, why didn't that stake president have enough discernment? Yeah, the first principle of the gospel is not the perfection of your bishop. Yeah. It goes right back to first principles and I love Elder Holland's statement. All the Lord has ever had to work with is imperfect people.

It must be incredibly frustrating to him, but he deals with it. And then the best part and so should we. And we can suit our mercies according to the conditions of others, you know, the way the Lord's being merciful to us. That's reciprocity right there. I mean, I sure hope my ward was merciful to me. I hope I don't sound wrong here. I agree with everything you've said, but I also believe in verse 27. I believe that the Lord doesn't aspire to the Bishop to know who has what gifts and so you make the callings.

And you try people to have their agency. They may not, they may not choose to follow the Lord, but the Lord still gives the Bishop the inspiration to who, the gift for the calling. And I think that we have to remember that as well. Yeah. I remember telling my wife, when I got released, that any future Bishop that I knew and decisions they make, I would not dare to pretend to know all the things that he knew about situations and things they were dealing with. I just thought, I'm never going to second guess that again because I was aware of things

that were happening and things that were confidential and feelings, inspirations that I had, that you can't possibly know all of the things that your current bishop might know and is dealing with. There's no way you can know. Yeah, it helped me to be a lot more, hey, you know, with whatever the current bishop might know and is dealing with. And it helped. There's no way you can know. Yeah, it helped me to be a lot more, hey, you know, with whatever the current bishop says, I'm gonna do what I signified I would do. This is not sustaining,

this is signifying that you will sustain. And I'm gonna sustain him. Yeah, I feel bad for a poor Edward Partridge belating the trail here, right? I mean, you get this section and all of a sudden, Partridge, blatantly the trail here. Right? I mean, you get this section and all of a sudden here's another expectation for the bishop and he's gotta be.

Okay. Right? And dealing with a lot. No handbook, right? Is it fair to say that at first, the bishop was more of a temporal affairs type of calling, like bishop storehouse and stuff like that? Yes, when it was first, the call college first given it was, but it didn't

take very long for the bishop to become like yesterday. And we have that we still have the presiding bishop who deals with a lot of temporal temporal things. Yeah, presiding bishop. Yeah, that's very much temporal was was definitely very very much the part of presiding bishop of the church. Yeah, that's what I thought. No, basically, a reward, yeah. Yeah, I think this is a fantastic discussion. It says in verse 28, and it shall come to pass, that he, the ascathed in spirit shall receive in spirit.

What do you think the Lord means by that? Well, I think you have to ask as you're dredged by the spirit. I think you can ask against the spirit, I guess, for the spirit. I think if you ask for following the spirit, then you'll receive in the Spirit. That's what I think it means. Yeah. So this idea of when I'm praying, I better pray for things that the Spirit's directing

me to pray for, not necessarily, you know, because I can pray for a Lamborghini every time I pray. Look at verse 30, he did ask it in the Spirit, ask, the Quentin of the will of God, where for it is then even is the asketh. I think if you ask it in the spirit is then in Quentin of the will of God, and that's how you know. Anything else in section 46 before we move on? I found this quote in the millennial star, it's George Cannon. Most people don't even know who George Cannon was. He was in the first

presidency, but he taught the following quote, if any of us are imperfect, it is our duty to pray for the gift that will make us perfect. And we're not to say, Oh, I can't have this is my nature. He's not just fighting it for the reason it got his promise to give strength to correct those things and give gifts that will eradicate them. I love that thought that we should pray for the gifts that will help us become more like heavenly Father. And I think that's good way to end this section. Yeah, wow, that is that's special. It's a who was it, John that said, you know, which is the

most important commandment. It's the one you're struggling with. Hair will be, yeah, hair will hate. Let's let's pray for the gift that will help you overcome the things that are your weaknesses right now And then you know present-hinkly said work on the big things and then Then start working on the little things as we go man. I love that And I'm thinking of the phrase and now I'm forgetting is this a book of Mormon verse a Seaky earnestly the best gifts Because it's not just find out what they are, but you can seek them. Yes, you should seek them earnestly. Yeah.

Because this comes up in, is it first Corinthians as well? Right, chapter 12. Another place where we can talk about the gifts of the Spirit. The Lord has put them all over the place. He wants us to know these things. I want to add two things. One is I wrote a book on happiness a couple of years ago.

It sold dozens of copies, mostly to my mom, but I learned something. I learned something. There's a man named Martin Seligman, who is doing some incredible work in positive psychology, a relatively new field. And he found, now I think you'll like this relating to what we just talked about. He said there are three types of human happiness.

He says one is, gives you a little bit of happiness that fades quickly. The next one is a more happiness and it doesn't fade as quick. And then the next one is, he is one that is sustaining right. This happiness is sustaining and it lasts, you know, it's a it's a higher form of happiness. So here is number one. He called it, he just calls it pleasure. Pleasure is a is a form of happiness and it's quickly fades like smoke, right. He said to the next higher form of happiness is engagement. Now, listen to what he said, engagement is. And you'll see that I think he's catching up here to section 46. Engagement or flow, he says, is when you use your specific unique gifts, he calls them

frequently, that you'll get to a point where you just you feel engaged right that people will say oh time just flew by for me Right is when you're using your gifts. He called them gifts Daily and then he said this the highest level of human happiness is meaning Where not you're not only using your gifts every day and you're not only experiencing the small pleasures of life, but you're using your gifts to a cause that is bigger than yourself. I love that. And he is right in line here with what the Lord is saying,

right, use your gifts, use it as regularly as you can and use them to benefit something that is bigger than yourself. Yeah. So I was, I thought Dr. Seligman can and use them to benefit something that is bigger than yourself. Yeah. So, I was, I thought Dr. Seligman had stumbled across some beautiful ideas here that were in the doctor in Covenants a couple, you know, 200 years ago, but still. I loved it.

I loved that he found that truth. Thank you for sharing that. That's wonderful. Yeah. And then I wanted to share one other thing. And I wanted to see what you all thought about this. This is a brand new book out by my friend Patrick Mason. It's called Restoration. And he wrote something about spiritual gifts in here that I just wanted to share with you. I thought it was so profound. He said, what if we were to extend the principles outlined in section 46 to consider the ways in

which God has graced not just individual women and men, but also whole cultures and communities with special gifts to be shared for the benefit of all. When we do this, we begin to see how God has endowed various groups, right, all over the world, including other religions with particular gifts and callings that are designed to bless the world. He goes on to quit. Yeah, I thought that was just,

I thought it was an excellent insight. That's a great point. He quotes the 1971 presidency statement that we've talked about here before, John, with I think it was with JB Haws, statement that we've talked about here before, John, with, I think it was with JB Haws, that the first presidency says in 1978, the great religious leaders of the world, such as Muhammad, Confucius, Reformers, Socrates, Plato, received a portion of God's light. Truth was given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and bring a higher level of understanding

to individuals. So I really thought it was a beautiful idea. Yeah. A beautiful statement that other, given to everybody, on other religions, other cultures have gifts to offer us. I thought that was a beautiful, a beautiful thought. And we can even if we're friends, if we recognize that they have them, we're willing to receive them. Man. Well, we talked to a, we talked with Brent Topp about Holy Envy and that idea of looking at

another faith and seeing, I really like that, you know, and I'd like to incorporate that more into me personally, but oh, that's a, that's a mind-expanding thought. Yeah, I was impressed by that and I was excited to share it with you. to me personally, but oh, that's a mind-expanding thought. Yeah, I was impressed by that, and I was excited to share it with you. Ron, let's move on to section 47. It's a revelation to John Whitmer. We've talked about the Whitmer family before. I don't know if we've necessarily talked about John individually.

He's being called here as a church historian. So what do we know about John Whitmer? What do we know about this calling? Well, unfortunately John left the church John was one of a kind. He was asked to replace Oliver Ketter who was who was an extra church historian while he was one He previously served as a scribe with Joseph with the different various different settings When he was called to speed the the church historian he said quote, I would rather not do it

But observe that the world will all be done if he the Lord desires it I desire that I would manifest it to the Joseph the Seer so he won't he will not be the church is turning unless he receives a revelation from God just that for enquired the Lord in the same day as section 46, 46, 47 that they were seen the same day in section 47 verse 4 it says in as much as see as faithful In section 47 verse 4 it says, in as much as he is faithful. In as much as he is faithful. That's the problem. He began his history the day after all, the Oliver Kelly left off June 12, 1831. He was later a community for a community for a posse and refused to give his history to

Joseph first in the last year before he would give it. It eventually held the hands of the community, Christ Church, and then of course we ended up with it with Joseph's papers, his history is volume two. It has 19 chapters and is on 83 pages long. After his excrement cake, he had three more chapters, 15 pages, exonerating himself and placing the blame for his excrementication on the saints. And he died outside the church. And so

647 is really a sad section of it. How you look at it? Because the person was called, didn't do a good job. And he went and what he did do, he gave to the artist church and died out of the faith. And so, it's just really a sad story there for John Wilmer, I think. Yeah, me too.

I have come to such a great love for some of these early saints who sacrifice so much. You know, I, names like the Whitmers that we kind of a discount. And it's just, it's not necessarily we should be judging them is that it's just a sad, it's a sad story because the Whitmers were such an important and crucial part in our beginnings. And I hate to see this falling out between the Whitmers and Joseph and then, you know, not returning like Martin Harris returned,

like Oliver Cowder to return this year. It does not return. He does not return. I hate to see that. You know what, if I can kind of get a broad application from this, I just love that the Lord gave revelations to James Covell in 39, probably knowing what would happen here,

John Whitmer probably knowing what would happen, but gave them a glimpse of their possibilities and of their potential. And I think that's what patriarchal blessings are. The Lord doesn't just say, now you're not gonna amount to much, but he gives you this vision of your potential and possibility.

And I be thankful that that he does that gives you, gives you something to live up to, but tells you, you can do this. This is your capacity. And man, it's just a broader way of looking at the whole thing, maybe. Yeah, the winners were definitely a key part of the beginning of the church. And Joe Wimmer was a key part. He was Josephine's scribe. He was later

the scribe for the whole church. So they aren't bad people per se. They just took wrong turns. And I think there's something we can learn from people that take wrong turns as well. But how good you get started off if you take a wrong turn. You end up in the wrong place and generals and examples of a person who took a wrong turn. He could have easily been at one of the leaders of the church for the rest of his life, but he took a wrong turn and died in in Missouri and outside the church. Are there any of the Whitmer's that remained faithful or came back? How sad. No. Not even Peter, senior. Well, he passed away, but the ones who lived, none of them stayed faithful.

Yeah, I was going to say a couple of them pass away in Missouri without before the family leaves. Yeah. So they died, you would say they died, you know, faithful in the church. But yeah, I think Oliver is the only, he's an inlaw, is the only one who returns. Yeah, he comes back at the end of his life. Yeah, at the end of his life. We can learn a lot from that, my friends. We can learn a lot from that. It's important to endure the end no matter what happens to you. At the risk of being a personal, it's okay, if I'm personal for a second, please, please. I had no idea this would happen to me. I had no idea that I would fall victim to progress in disease and etc. But I bear my witness to you that I will never fall away. The church is true. I'm not true. The church is true. I'm seeing with it to the end. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity. I had to bring it just for the day of that,

because there are people who do not stick to the end and they've left the church and that's really a sad thing, but we can learn from their lesson from them. Thank you, Ron. Ron, that was beautiful. Ron, I know you're a lover of history. What would you say the importance of the records that we have? Because, just because John Whitmer leaves doesn't mean the history stops. We keep a pretty good history. How important has

that history been to us now almost 200 years later? Wow. That question is a long answer. I'll tell you just because I can. One of the blessings that I've had is, remember, the church I've had a chance to review some of the volumes of the just with papers. One of the volumes that I had a chance to review for B.O. Your Studies and writing for it was the volumes on the histories. And we can learn as much about the histories from Stin histories. the people that wrote the ones we can't from the history as themselves. Not all the histories are the same, not all are complete. They all have problems, they all have John Curl, for example, wrote a history. He let the church, John wrote a history, he let the church. And so we can learn two things.

We learn from the histories themselves. We can also learn from the people who wrote the histories, what to do and what not to. And I think that has been a blessing to me just to be a short answer for now of the histories at church. And can I just ask you a personal question? Why do you love history so much? Because I've heard you present on, you know, I think it was some polygamist families that you presented on one at one time. I've heard you present on, you know, I think it was some polygamist families that you presented at one time. I've heard you present on, you know, the revelations. I've heard you present on, and I know you're a lover of history.

Why do you, why do you love it so much? Because there's so much we can learn from it. Those people all passed away. We can learn from their mistakes. We can learn from the good things you do. We can learn from the bad things that they did with that having to do it ourselves. And so I feel like I'm a better person because the history is that I've read instead. I like the book of Mormon phrase that the plates would enlarge the memory of the people.

And I think history has a way of enlarging our memory. We can learn the lessons without going through the hard part if we really try and it can enlarge our memory and give us. Make us help us be wise instead of just knowledgeable. I'm 100% with you John the history is so important and I've heard it said before if you if you want to be remembered keep a journal. If you want to be remembered by anyone after you're gone, keep a journal. That's a good point. Yeah, keep a record, keep a history.

And we still have this church historian role, right, Ron? We do. The church historian now is always a general authority for good reason because it's such a critical part of the gospel for the reason you just said. And so the general, the general thirty who's called to be the church historian is always very solid and very educated and very, very able to do all the work, but he's also a general thirty and I think it's important. So the church historian today is Elder Lagrand Curtis, Jr. I love that this calling given in 1831 is still with us today.

I just, I love that. I just think there's something beautiful there. What I used to think as a kid about, because President Kimball, my, the president of the church, as I was a teenager, emphasized keeping a journal lot a lot. And I always figured that if our whole lives are going to be recorded in heaven, and the angels above us are silent notes taking, well, somebody's

writing it down. Why do I have to write it down? And I can see now that putting it down yourself can bless you as you think about it and you learn the lessons from it. And maybe you do this too, Hank, but I make my students keep a reading journal during our class because it goes into a different place in your short term and long term memory if you actually write down what you were learning and you'll retain it for longer.

And I was just gonna mention Wilford Woodruff and how important he was as a as a history keeper that I guess he heard Joseph Smith say once. I remember in the movie Mountain of the Lord, he says, well, that since I heard Joseph Smith say, you know, you should we should be a record keeping people. I haven't been able to go to bed before I wrote down the events of the day. Does that sound familiar? Ron? Yes. And Wilford had a lot of multiple volumes of journals. Yeah.

And we can learn a lot about the hard history of the journal. So when I went to get my marriage recommend, I went to see my wife's state president, and his name is Wilford Bruce Woodruff. Oh, wow. And that was pretty fun because we got talking about Wilford and he has as a direct descendant access to all of those journals.

I think the church keeps him, but he has access to him. Yeah, that's awesome. And I was also gonna mention my beloved stake president who set me apart to go in a mission was George I cannon Wow Who who served in the 70 after that, but he set me apart from my mission So I goodness that was pretty cool to say George George I cannon set me apart

That was fun. Did they just go through the alphabet with that? Do they just now that? Well, they get they got to cue then and then started over yeah Well, they got to cue and then they started over. Yeah, I don't know. I'm around the horn. A tall, wonderful man, my state president. Wow. That's awesome. And there's different ways to keep a record, right?

Some of us maybe are overwhelmed at the idea of opening up and writing down. Well, a lot of people type their journal now. And you can even record audio. You can just record audio. Audio. Video. You can record.

I do this a lot with my kids where I'll say, oh, this is a journal moment and I'll get my phone out and I'll record it. Okay, what's the date today? Hey, what are we doing? You know, and I think we're gonna, we're keeping a record. And you know, those things,

I have a niece who's uploading tons of stuff of my mom and dad to the family history websites and let them house it, you know, let them store it. But now all these photos are up there and a lot of, like they say, a picture tells a thousand words. So history and in photos is up there, which is kind of a nice thing. What is the name of that? It's the app is called family tree. And you're exactly right. You can upload pictures, audio files to to anybody's record here. And I've uploaded a lot to mine. And I just I trust that those servers are double and triple yeah. They're they're in a granite vault at little cottonwood canyon, right? So I I I love the little point on this on my family tree where I can go to my children. It says out add spouse. I'm like, oh, good. I can do this for my daughter. I'll choose John by the

way son. It'll be it'll be a perfect brother. Ron in section 48, the Lord is actually talking about buying land, I think, for anticipating other members that are coming. Could you tell us some things about section 48? I'd love to. Thank you so much. And on March 9, 1831, some members of the coastal venture were able to sell their acreage so they could relocate to Ohio, which was a happy thing for everybody.

They're from coastal New York. On March 10, 1831, as the time drew near for the brother and the state of New York to arrive in Ohio, there was no preparation made for the reception of the Saints from the East. They didn't know where to put them. Bishop Edward Partridge being anxious to know something has happened. He asked Joseph at the receiver of the Lacey and Joseph's received 648. In verses 1 to 3, the Lord used the phrase present time three times, in plain that Ohio would only be a temporary church center, which of course we know for a fact that it was.

In verse 4 he says, the city, New Jerusalem, which is to be built with the Congress of Christ the Christ of Christ, the Holy Saints, is not in Ohio, it's somewhere else. The church first was about the city from the Buckevi, they're in the Buckewoman, and two of his previous religious religious services was received, section in 2042, but they're really excited to move there. And the exact location of the city had not been revealed yet. Verse 5, but three months later, the Lord did tell

them, and there was a Missouri, there was a place for their gathering, and he didn't reveal the specific location, it was justy until they got there in January, 31. So imagine you remember the church. You just moved from New York to Ohio, only to find out that Ohio is a temporary place. And you're really moving somewhere else a thousand miles away in Missouri. It was you won't find out till July. So so they moving may, they don't find out

to July that they're going to be moving to Missouri, but it's a tough, tough time for the members of the church because they're going to make 648, quote, a hollow place, a special place, but it's a temporary place. And that's the message of the 648. Yeah, no, Ohio does become a temporary place for them. I wonder if the Lord says in verse 5, the place is not yet to be revealed. And a side note, you probably would be upset with me. So we'll, yeah, we'll let this, we'll let this just because there's, oh, I they're saying, oh, I hope it's not as far away as New York to Ohio. No, it's going three times Oh, I hope it's not as far away for as New York to Ohio. No, it's going three times as far. It's a lot further.

And when you come into the valley, you're going to go, this is the place. Oh, you're talking about Salt Lake. Yeah, I'm talking about another one. And that's kind of a sad look at what they had to go through when building homes and farms that other people would occupy at some point. And sometimes having to sell them for pennies on the dollar. Who was it, saw, who was it in Navu that swept the room

and then left the broom by the door? Yeah, that's Wilford Woodruff, yeah. Yeah, knowing that, okay, bye, just built this beautiful place and now gotta go. The things that a lot of moving those first years, they did a lot of moving. That's rough. And Missouri's a pretty good place.

So is Navu, but Salik is terrible when they first got here was awful. Yeah, especially for people who lived in the East. Yeah, right. And going, this is desolate. I remember growing up in Utah thinking, it's not a desert. Look, we've got all these trees and then I went east. I went, oh, that's what it is.

I know, I felt the same way. You look down into plain and it's like you have to clear the land of trees to do anything. And here you got a plant trees which die if you don't water. Yeah. It's different. John, can I make a couple of points here please? Absolutely. First point is it's amazing how much the saints do in current and current religion, they're going to be there for five years. They build a Christmas. They build homes, they build They build the Grisping. They build homes. They build a temple. They really work hard the five years there and they really make a difference. I think that we have to forget that as a important piece for them moving to Nago and into Salt Lake. So they had a lot of practice building and leaving, building

and leaving and leaving and that's something they had to have a lot of practice doing. The same I like to make it seem more important is if you go to Krun and today it's just beautiful, it's spectacular and it was beautiful for them too. And so thing about difficult, it would be to leave these beautiful places one after another New York, Ohio, Missouri, New York, New York, and then to go to Salt Lake, these people really sacrificed a lot. And I think that unless you've been there, you can't appreciate how much they really had to sacrifice. So I just wanted to bear my testimony that I believe these saints were really called of God. They knew how to move, they knew how to build, and that did them well when they came to Salt Lake. And I

bear my testament that's true in a sentence, Jesus Christ, Amen. Amen. I love that, Ron. That is beautiful. I love this. I as we're going through the doctrine, Covenants this year, and I've taught the doctrine, Covenants before. So I have, I'm just coming to a new understanding of how much these men and women, these families, were called to do. It gives me strength, and it also gives me responsibility, I feel, to carry on the work they started. I'm not going to be the one who, I don't wanna be the one who falls off and doesn't build on this glorious chain they began.

I feel a responsibility to my pioneer ancestors, not even just the ones I'm related to, but these early ones of these early sections. That's awesome, Hank, because I think there's many members of Church of the don't they don't feel that way. They don't understand the doctor comments. What's that? You know, kind of a thing. And I think it's critical that we teach the people what happens

so that they can appreciate the sacrifice that went before them. So they can know who they're following whose faces are following and so you become more like those people that that they that they don't really know a lot about and so when I teach these sections right teach 47 48 particularly I make sure that people know that these people gave up a lot especially in verse 4 6 for you to give a lot for me to have what I have today and I need to build on that. And then and said just to I need to appreciate and be thankful for and said just, you know, receive it. Yeah. Oh, Ron, that is that is so good because it reminds me of first Nephi chapter one, verse

one, I Nephi. He could say King of kings. He could say builder of boats, crosser of oceans. Right. He says, I Nephi, having built upon a, you know, goodly parents, I have good parents. And we could also say, you know, I hank Iron, I John, having been come from awesome pioneers, right? Awesome. Handsetters. And that kind of placing our, I have a responsibility to these people. I was talking to the president of the Wyoming State that did so much of the temple work for these people, relating to most of them, they, they, they moved from New York to Missouri to Navu to Ohio to Salt Lake without receiving

their temple ordinances. And that even gives me a degree of feeling for them as I relates to wow. The other without receiving their temple ordinances and wow, we've been without the temple for a year now because it's been closed. And I just am aching to go back, but those people they never even saw temple in their lifetime because the temple in Salt Lake wasn't built until the St. George Temple was born in 1877.

So I don't know, it's just to me, well, they're awesome. I'd love just Ron earlier when you said, I'm gonna, I will be in this faith. And I feel that strength from them to, I, you know, as they continue forward, I continue forward. And I pass it on to the next generation. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to the next generation. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say the more we've studied this together Hank and it's been such a privilege and to be with you and these amazing guests that we have, the more my own problems and concerns have kind of diminished and I just think look what they did, look what they're

going through. And I love things like that that help me reduce a lot of my problems to kind of first world problems, you know. And your perspective. Yeah. And another thing I wanted to add is that I watched, I think I have watched the, I think it was the Sunday morning session, the I'm a child of God, the very international session of general conference. I think I've watched the I'm a child of God, the very international session of general conference. I think I've watched the I'm a child of God think about 10 times, watching these saints from all over the world, singing in their own language, and

seeing them as pioneers that have maybe, if not literal, descendants of these pioneers, but what they're doing and what their sacrificing has just been. I watched it over and over. I just think, man, I love these people never met him. But I'd love to and say that I bet they're making sacrifices to come into a relatively new faith for them in a country where it's not well established. I just felt a lot of love for them. Hmm. That's beautiful, John. I felt the exact same way. I'll look right when they started. I thought, Oh, man, yeah, grab the clean eggs. I'm not going to make it. Uh, yeah. Beautiful. Just beautiful. These people were so poor. Yet the Lord says three times in this section in verse three says buy for the present

time. And then verse four, save all the money that you can. Then verse six, purchase the lands. These people are asked to sacrifice in a way that they, I don't think they could appreciate because the weekend appreciate because we have so many things around us, so much stuff. And yet they were asked to save, save, save, bye, bye, bye. And I just can't imagine how much they had to sacrifice. I just wanted to very much just make that as well. I said it was just a nasty man. That is beautiful.

In my book that I quoted earlier of my friend, Patrick Mason, he says, despite the Lord's consistent and stern warnings, we today have largely been seduced by the gods of affluence and ease. And, wow. These early people, they were not seduced by the gods of influence or affluence or ease. So Ron, I have a last question for you. Please. You're a gospel scholar.

You've been studying and teaching these things for, I want to say, how many years now? 36 years. You've been studying and teaching these things for over 35 years. Full time. This has been your job full time. You know, as much as there is to know about Joseph Smith and these early saints, the both their highs and their lows. You certainly know as much as any critic of the early saints of Joseph Smith would know. Yet here you are faithful.

So I would love to hear just my friend, Ron's personal thoughts on Joseph Smith, the restoration, and what this has done for you personally. Wow. Thank you so much for asking. I grew up with that testimony, Joseph Smith. I just couldn't wrap my mind around him. I haven't got a seminary without having to test my josemith. So it made me study harder and harder and harder and I read and read read read books and books and books and books book. Well, I found it by the time I finally got my test my josemith thanks to him or where I was standing when this British me he was a prophet of God. And since then I've stayed more of course and I just want to bring

just money. I know for myself beyond a shed of a doubt Joseph was the prophet of God. He was the Lord's prophet He was an imperfect man, but I don't want I don't focus on that focus on the great things He did in 38 years of his life. He was amazing Joseph Smith had a way of tuning into the spirit that no one that I'm Smith had a way of tuning into the spirit that no one that I'm aware of has had yet. He was just able to tune the spirit of the Lord and to know what to do and to know the right thing to do all the time. He learned from his lessons. He learned to, he made a mistake. He learned from the lesson he never did again. So I just want to very much just make that just because I was a

private of God. As far as the church goes, I know there's a lot of other churches in the world today, and our churches are very big compared to most of them. But I know for myself, be on a shadow of a doubt, this church is the church of God. This is the way the Lord wants us to live. I encourage you to say the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. Amen. Ron, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for your time. Thank you for giving us imparting on to John and I and our listeners of your incredible knowledge and experience. Can I say one more thing, Hank? Please, please. I just read a book that had 18 chapters in it each 100 by different person critiquing Joseph Smith and

Every single person had this for that to say about Joseph Smith and My question to them is this my question that they they don't answer themselves as this What would Joseph miss say about the the chapters of the other about him? What he say about the critiqued thing made him it's really to critique someone who's passed away in there in the grave They can't talk back But if just with the hair what do you say? I? Want to bear my testimony that I know he's a prophet of God. I don't care what anybody writes out here when he says He's probably got an everything that people write and say fits into that if they are telling the truth and There's so much out there that's anti negative right now. They're so bad

And there's so much out there that's anti-negative right now. They're so bad. After General Conference, my daughter and I went online and studied different kinds of related about General Conference. I just couldn't believe there wasn't one positive remark about General Conference. But there is for me, I know for myself, Russell M. Nelson is a prophet of God. I know for myself that the people that sustain you are chosen by the Lord. I know for myself that the church is true.

And I say it in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Amen. Ron, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Goodness. I wish I could tell my 20 something old self when I first met you, hold on to this guy. He is something else.

John, we have another episode of Follow Him in the books. I think I learned some things today that I honestly are going to impact me for the rest of my life. It's every time we get together, it's a new appreciation, another layer of testimony, and in this case, a renewed friendship haven't seen Ron for a long time. So really great to be with you. We love you. We do. We do. We are. We are a team. We want to thank Dr. Ron Bartholomew for coming today. We want to thank all of you for listening. We're so very grateful for your support. We want to thank our producers, Steven Shannon Swanson, our production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Kyle

Nelson, Will Staten, and Andrew Morton. We hope that you will join us on our next episode of Follow In. you