Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 49-50 : Dr. Lili De Hoyos Anderson Part II

Episode Date: May 9, 2021

We return with Dr. Anderson to discuss whether spiritual manifestations are real, a product of emotion, or even hypocritical. We learn how the Lord is teaching the Saints line by line, as they encounter challenges and growing pains.Show notes: https://followhim.co/episodesYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast00:00  Welcome to Part II00:21 Background to Section 50: Spiritual Gift or Emotion?02:27 The Past is a Different Country05:01 President  Hinckley: Learn to Avoid Personal Recognition:08:41 The Delta Between Our Faith and Our Actions10:27 The Difference Between Hypocrisy and Real Repentance13:34 The Lord Allows the Wheat and the Tares to Grow Up Together15:46 The Lord Will Take Care of Hypocrites, Not Man18:02 The Lord Teaches With Reason and the Spirit19:58 The Twelve and Members Should Search Revelations Before Asking for Additional--Don’t Need to Be Commanded in Everything22:20 The Lord Doesn’t Want Us to Make Stupid Decisions but He Will Make Them Work for Our Benefit23:12 Dr. Anderson Shares Story About Young Woman and New Roommate Decision24:02 You Probably Aren’t the Exception26:00 Nephi as an Example of Using Reason and Obedience31:00 We have one Savior and It Isn’t Us33:05 The Best Teaching is From the Spirit34:02 The Early Saints Were Taught Discernment36:15 We Learn “Line by Line” and by the Spirit or We Lose It38:42 President Monson Missed His Dying Brother and Learns to Be Quick to Obey Promptings41:04 We Grow in Intelligence and Ability with the Spirit (President Hinckley Examples)43:15 Elder Hales Story About Peddling His Bike and Joseph Smith Was a Genius Due to the Spirit Enlarging Him45:16 The Spirit is Like a Wedding Reception49:00 Comparison of Section 50 to Moses 151:18 The False Doctrine of Judging54:27 The Gospel Makes Us Better in Every Way56:07 The Restoration Brings Light to the Entire Earth59:00 The Lord is With Us as We Grow1:01:24 The Spirit Will Tell Us All the Things That We Should Do1:05:36 John Urges Us To Remember Three Words: Continue in God1:06:45 Dr. Anderson’s Testimony1:21:07 End of Part II

Welcome to a continuing discussion of section 49 and section 50 with Dr. Lily Anderson. Let's now move to section 50 and this is a revelation about you know, manifestations of different spirits and what what is happening here that leads Joseph Smith to receiving this one? Basically, it's what it says right here in the heading that there were quite a few manifestations that were happening to members of the church. And as it says, so-called spiritual phenomena were not uncommon among the members, some of whom claimed to be receiving visions and revelations. And, you know, we've talked about how the church began at a time of spiritual excitement.

As we've talked about so many of these individuals who become significant players in the restoration, they were seekers. You know, they knew the Bible well. They understood about the spirit. They sought those gifts. So it seems like there was a pretty high level of understanding of how the spirit can operate and manifest in different gifts and so on. And so there was a real sensitivity to it.

Maybe even it does well, in fact, undoubtedly a desire for those things. A desire to see those manifestations in their individual lives. Now, emotion and the spirit can be confused. So I remember Elder Scott, blessed him, said something once in conference. I don't remember this speech, but he said sometimes, you know, strong emotion can be mistaken for the spirit.

And I was like, thank you for saying that because I've seen that a lot in my own life and in my practice. So we have to be cautious about emotion. And I think that this section, oh my goodness, it's a true favorite of mine. I hate to say that because all scriptures have amazing meaning and I have so many favorites, but this is a true favorite of mine because there are so much clarification given about how the spirit works and how we can distinguish between emotion and the spirit. And I refer to this often, I actually refer to this section many times in the course of the work I do and just with my own

family and friends. Lily, can I jump in here real quick? Please. All these members of the church are coming in. John's pointed out a number of times that no one's been a member of the church longer than 13 months at this point. Right. So you're bringing in all sorts of different spiritual cultures. And so I love this quote, the past is a foreign country. This is LP Hartley. The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there. So when we read about some of these different spiritual phenomena, we shouldn't go, well, we're all the early members of the church weird, right? Because that doesn't happen today. But it was a pretty common thing for religiosity then to be kind of shown in very physical ways, right? Getting up and

moving and shouting and being taken over by the spirit. And we just talked about the shakers who, you know, used kind of extatic dance, and that was something that people saw and knew about. So yes, it was not as uncommon, like you say, in this period of time. That said, God gets very direct and interesting here in the first verses, which I think are so important. But what he says here in verse 6.

Well unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites. For thus, say, the Lord, I will bring them to judgment. Now look at this. Hypocrits and deceivers, we hold, I say unto you, verse 7, there are hypocrites among you who have deceived some, which has given the adversary power that behold such shall be complained, but reclaimed, sorry, but the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will and woe unto them who are cut off from my church for the same role, overcome the world. Now, this is pretty deep, you know, deep correction. He's saying, let's just be clear.

Some of this stuff is made up. Like there are some of you who are open to it, you want it, you recognize the gifts of the spirit and the manifestations thereof, and that's a wonderful thing. And as you said, Hank, it's good to have a people who are, they have a fire lit in them. And they are seekers, and they do understand that there are miracles that can happen if we are in tune and open to

them. And that is wonderful. But guess what enters in? You know, the adversary is real and he uses anything and here he uses this kind of excitement and why would people be hypocrites and deceivers? For recognition, that's always what it is. It's for recognition. And recognition is a dangerous, dangerous situation

where people can start to measure themselves by how many likes they got or shares, right? But anyway, back in this day, like how people think, how this person is so spiritual, oh, this person has all these gifts manifesting. And we've had an ITATA class one year in adult religion in Las Vegas, it was really a great class on the Latter-day prophets.

And what a gift it was to me to study the lives of those men's men a little bit more in depth. And I was so interested in how many of them wrote clearly about their awareness of the need to avoid recognition. They talked about it and talked about what a trap it was. And I think that's exactly what's happening here, is that this desire for fame or recognition or status, you know, spiritual status to be so seen as so spiritual is a is a real trap.

And it can turn you into a hypocrite and a deceiver. And that is so, you know, an affima to the Lord. I remember hearing the most interesting story when sister Sherry do was writing President Gordon B. Hinckley's biography and that she took him a draft and that President Hinckley was like, Gordon Hinckley, Gordon Hinckley, I'm sick to death of reading about Gordon Hinckley. Adulation is poison, adulation is poison. And it's like, well, who am I supposed to write about? It's your biography. And I just loved that attitude that he didn't, I guess he kind of felt, okay, people want to know who their church leader is, but it was really uncomfortable for him. He was the one, President Hinckley, who said that someone had come to him when he was first

called and said, you know, the people of this church love their leaders. And from now on, you're going to hear all these really nice things about yourself. Don't believe them. Remember. Don't believe them. Remember? Don't believe them. So they are aware. And they, I think they fight against it. That's interesting.

Having taught the New Testament for a decade now, I would think, you know, maybe before that, I would think that the Lord didn't like sin. And I know it's hypocrisy. It's hypocrisy over and over. It's religious hypocrisy especially. He is much harder on them than on sinners. This reminds me, this whole first section reminds me of Matthew 23. You come from Pharisees. Hypocrits.

You hypocrites. It's, man, it's something we have to be, we all have to be careful of. Hypocrisy. I don't think the Lord wants us reading this and going, oh, I know a few of those. Right, I think he wants us looking at ourselves, saying, are we doing this in our own lives, right? And I think that you're right, Lily, you profess my name, but you want,

you're shining your light so that they may see your good works and glorify you. And the gap between the real and the ideal is what we would say produces cognitive dissonance or noise in this system. In other words, the discomfort we feel when our real behavior doesn't match up with our ideal behavior. And that's human. That is, you know, the journey of mortality. And that's human. That is, you know, the journey of mortality. But there are two ways that sociologists would say we could deal with that cognitive dissonance. One is the good way. And that's to try to raise our real behavior to get closer up and down, you know, our human journey steps forward, steps back, but eventually upward so that we can close the gap

through improving ourselves, repenting, changing, becoming. But sometimes we also can dumb down the ideals. And some people just say, well, you know what? I don't think it's that big a deal if I shop on Sunday. Like so, I'm not gonna feel lower the ideal. I'm just gonna lower my ideal.

Or I'm, you know, I don't think it's that bad if I watch that movie or that bad if I watch that movie, or that bad if I use that language, or whatever it is, dress that way. And so we lower. And that happened. You can see all around that people are constantly in this situation of trying to reconcile their ideals

with their real behavior. And of course, one way is so much better than the other. It's to improve ourselves and become. Now, what's interesting is that I saw later on in my life, I saw a third way that I'd never heard in sociology discussions, but it was when I saw people usually in the church who would ramp up their being a witness of their ideals, like they would talk incessantly about how fervent

their conversions were, how much they believed in the gospel, how everything was so important to them. And then, if you got to know them better, you sadly, or heard the backstory, sometimes maybe as a counselor or a neighbor or something, you would find that their real behavior was actually sinking. And maybe they had an addiction that they were dealing with and are not dealing with, or some, you know, they had a terrible marriage that they were not you know, acknowledging at all. But they wanted to maintain this fervor. And that really is the Pharisee. That's the Pharisee where we take our ideals and we try to like polish them off and

make them brighter than the neighbors and make it so evident to everybody that like, I really, I'm so into this, but, you know, I'm really not looking in the mirror and saying, what lack I yet? And how can I, you know, be a humble follower of Jesus Christ and not compare myself with a neighbor and try to say, well, I'm better than that. But to realize that, well, was it President Uttar's bumper sticker there about, you know, because I sin differently than there about? You know, don't be nuts. Because I sin differently than you do. You know, I'm glad you're talking about the salilie because I'm afraid as a as a former

bishop, I had people that would come in routinely and were deeply repentant. Sorry for their sins and knew what the idea was, and we're struggling to live it. And I didn't think of them as hypocrites. I thought of them as sinners who are honestly striving. And so I think what we're talking about as hypocrites, or like the scribes of Pharisees, were outwardly like, I am keeping everything, you know. But people that are acknowledging, hey, I'm a sinner, I need the Savior just as much as anybody. I think that takes them out of that category of a hypocrite and somebody who's striving, even if they are making the same mistakes repeatedly, because I saw that as a bishop and I was, I mean, they were trying so hard that I, they weren't in that category.

And I think it's important that we say that. I think that's a wonderful distinction because it's a desire to just acknowledge that we're all in this together. I have to remind many of my clients who sometimes feel really terrible about the things they've done and sometimes they've done some pretty serious things that are separating them from God.

But if they feel too distressed, I'm like, can we just review for a second? Without Jesus Christ, we're all going to hell. Let's just remember. Let's just make sure. Let's just make sure. We're all in this together. All of us fall short of the glory of God. Anyone who says he's not a sinner,

you know, as a liar and the truth is in him, we know those things. So we are on this together. We don't need to posture or parade around our successes or anyway, it's real life and there's a balance in there somewhere about not trying to discourage or just throw up all my sins in public, but at the same time not trying to pretend that I'm without problems or that life is perfect in my house. And that's important. I think that another thing is just this idea of what we're, you know, where we're going

for recognition. And it really needs to be to God alone. When we do, I mean, all of us have had opportunities to speak and in places where people come up and appreciate what we say. And that is a real gift and an opportunity. It's a privilege. And I am so grateful for every opportunity to testify or teacher share my what I have learned. And then, but you know what, I don't

forget where it comes from. And that has been a real help to me all along is to just want to pass that off and say, like, you know what? The scriptures are where this stuff comes from. The Lord is, you know, it's the spirit that taught you today. And I'm grateful I could be a part of that. But it wasn't me. It wasn't Lily Anderson who had the answers. It's the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even with my clients, sometimes they want to give me credit. And I'm like, you know what? It's what you did when you left the office that changed your life. Don't forget that.

It's not me. I know who the healer is. It's not me. It's the Savior. So I think it's just he's reminding us all through the scriptures. And as you mentioned, of course, you know, in the New Testament, he really gives some scathing denunciations about hypocrites because that is not his way. It is about the honest humble follower of Christ who recognizes that we are all falling

short of the glory of God, but we can approach him through the Savior who is mighty to save. And all of us can be sufficient with Christ. I think it's important also to recognize that the Lord is saying here, that he says, they'll be cut off, whether in life or in death. In other words, don't worry about the timing.

You know how many people have left the church because of hypocrites? I mean, how many people have left the church because of hypocrites? I mean how many people get offended or dismayed because they see people who profess to do one thing and yet they do another and and they have feet of clay and they're just you know oh my gosh I can't believe that I can't believe that person was serving that calling I can't believe that person's a purr and I'm like you know the Lord is really clear here. This is not your problem. This is my problem. And I've got it handled. And as I've told so many people, how often did the Savior warn

that the wheat would grow with the tears? Constantly. So what do we think we live in a tear-free zone? Like our word is tear-free or our steak is tear-free or the church is tear-free? Like, what are you thinking? That's not the way it is. The Lord has told us from the beginning,

the wheat and the tears together. And then at the end when Christ comes, that's when he's gonna bundle them up in the different prices and burn the tears. But not until then. And in the meantime, stop worrying about it. I mean, just like you said, Hank, this isn't for us to judge our neighbor. It's for us to look in the meantime, stop worrying about it. I mean, just like you said, Hank, this isn't for us to judge our neighbor,

it's for us to look in the mirror and say, Lord, is it I? Do I need to be careful about what I'm doing? And if I'm too concerned about recognition or status or how I compare with the neighbors, or am I trying to put on a pose or pretend to something that isn't who I really am? So that's the most interesting thing.

It seems that the Lord is saying that, Lillian, verse nine, wherefore, let every man, and I'm sure we'd add a woman here, beware, lest he do that, which is not in truth and righteousness before me. He's saying, not every man beware, lest others are doing this.

You look at yourself to see if you're doing things in truth and righteousness before me. I really have to take a win. I've never really looked at the opening of this section, but he's setting a very firm boundary. And then he's saying, now you look at yourself to see if you are keeping the boundary. Well, you just improved my scriptures dramatically, Lily. I put that next toversate. The hypocrites are not your problem.

They're my problem. I will deal with them, either hypocrites are not your problem. They're my problem. I will deal with them, either in this life or the next. So you could throw in a cross reference to section 112, which you'll talk about in the future. So I'm not going to go there yet. That's a great cross reference for anybody who wants to work that up. You take care of your own, your weeds in your own garden and stop pointing out the weeds and other people's gardens. Exactly. It's plenty of ours. Yeah. And then it gets really good because this section just gets better. So what does he say is an answer? Now that he said, okay, some of these manifestations are just,

they're just people looking for attention. They're even hypocrites and deceivers amongst them. But then he says, come, say, if the Lord is his first hand, buy the spirit into the elders of his church, and let us reason together that ye may understand, okay, this is gold.

Let us reason together that ye may understand. And then the Lord goes off on this understanding topic for him versus, let us reason even as a man reasoned with one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoned it, he is understood of man because he reasoned as a man, reasoneth one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoneth, he is understood of man because he reasoneth as a man. Even so, well, I, the Lord, reasoneth with you that you may understand. Like, he's taking a minute here and he's saying,

reasoning is about understanding. And I want you to understand. I'm going to reasoneth with you face to face, just like a man would do it face to face. And what's the purpose of that reasoning? So we can get to a place of understanding. That's the goal. In other words, it needs to make sense. This is so powerful.

I'm just so excited every time I read it. Now, the verse 13, the Lord gets a little bit secratic. You know, the secratic method where he asks questions. Wherefore, I, the Lord, a little bit secratic. You know, there's a critic method where he asks questions. Wherefore, I, the Lord, ask you this question unto what were ye ordained? Like, let's review. Why did I call you in the first place? He seems like a really good teacher here.

He says, okay, I'm very stopped. Let's start over. Let's review. Why are we here? Back to basics. Here we go. And then he answers the question, to preach my gospel by the Spirit. Now, that's what we're talking about, the Spirit here.

Even the Comforter, which was sent forth to teach the truth. The truth. Now, he just spent three verses telling us that we need to reason so we can understand. It needs to make sense. The truth needs to make sense. That's why I called you in the first place, so that you could teach by the Spirit truth and the truth better makes sense. It has to be understood of man in order for it to be real truth. And then he says, then receive these spirits which he could not understand and receive them to be of God. And in this, you're justified. Like, does this make sense to you? Like, don't go there.

Like, are you kidding me? Like I ordained you to teach the truth and the truth needs to make sense. That's why I reason with you, even as a man face to face so you can understand. And then you get all these manifestations and they don't make any sense. And you think they're coming for me? Don't even go there. God is not a God of confusion. He's a God of truth.

And it makes sense. The gospel of Jesus Christ makes sense. That doesn't mean we get every answer as soon as we want it. It means that everything starts to fit into this grand design and adds to the design and it embellishes and it edifies. He uses that word later on. It's so, this is so exciting to me. Can you tell? I'm very excited.

It says. No, this is wonderful stuff. I think the Lord is saying, look, I gave you a way to know if it was for me, you need to follow through with that. I gave you a way to know. What do you think about it? Yeah, you should have put these two things together and seen that this was not me. This couldn't have been me because it didn't make any sense. Now, this is so important when it comes to receiving revelation. And that's where I use this section a lot to try to make this point that back in section 9 where he was talking to Oliver Cowdery about translating. Remember, and he said, you thought you could

just ask, no, you had to do what? Study it out in your mind. And then pray for confirmation. Now, I think that order is essential. Think about it first. Like, reason. Can you come to a place of understanding with what has already been revealed? Do you remember, and I don't have a reference on this, but Bruce Arma Kanky once said that the 12 are very careful about petitioning the Lord for new revelation. And before they do so, they go and do an exhaustive search, and I'm sure there are associates and admins do it too,

but they look to see what the Lord has already revealed before they come and say, oh, we need more information. And that's fascinating to me again. I think the Lord is saying, look, I've given you so much. Can you think about it? Can you study it out in your mind? Can you do the math? Like make the pro and con list before you come to me.

Because I don't need to instruct you in all things and he said that. It's not me that you should be commanded in all things. I gave you all this facility. I gave you the faculties of your mind. And I've given you so much information. Use it. Think about it. Learn it. Study it. See if you can come to a place of sense with it. does it fit into what the Lord has already taught? And then if you need something more, of course, ask. And even our study, of course, can be prayerful and should be, so that we can ask to be directed to study and think about the right things when we're making a decision. That's what the Lord wants of us. He wants us to use this amazing brain that he has given us, the good mind, the good information, think about it.

And realize that truth is reason. Truth is reason. If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not of me. So think about how often we'll hear these stories. Not too often, I'm happy to say, but occasionally we'll hear these stories about somebody who says, you know, I was praying about whether or not I should buy this, make this big purchase,

and I had a really good feeling about it. So I went ahead and I bought it, even though I really couldn't afford it, and then I had to declare bankruptcy, and it was repissed, whatever. But I think the Lord wanted me to have, you know, learn that lesson, and I'm like, no, he didn't. That's why the prophets say, live on less than you earn. That's why we have all this material about preparation, and it includes, you know, a good budget and thinking about it and doing the math. The Lord doesn't want you to put your hand on hot stoves. So don't blame him for that and say that, well, I learned my lesson. Okay, maybe you learned your lesson and God can make lemonade out of lemons, which is what he does. But he doesn't want us

to make stupid decisions. That's why he says, study it out here. My come, let us reason together. Does it make sense? Does it fit into this, into the revealed work that I'm giving you that is truth, that is for your good, that it's to avoid the pitfalls that cliff edges, the hot stoves? If it doesn't, don't blame me for that and act like you're being inspired. That's not me. That's your emotion being, you know, getting in the way and you think that every emotion you have is the spirit. But it's not. If it doesn't fit your thinking, you should be really careful and suspect about it.

So here's a story. I was working with a young woman once since a long time ago. And she had had kind of a misspent youth and came from a pretty tough family and hadn't been, I mean, they were members, but not so you could tell. So she didn't learn the gospel very well and went through some tough times, but she wanted to get her life in order. So she was working with her bishop and she actually was living with some really wonderful roommates. And they were all good girls and they all went to church together. It even had apartment prayer when they could and scripture reading even sometimes, they were really supportive of good things. And she was having a great experience there moving forward. Then she came in to see me one day and she said, you know, I have this big decision to make and I can't get an answer. I keep praying and praying. I just can't get an answer. I said, well, what's going on? And she said, well, a friend from my hometown is moving close by.

And she's renting a place, but she absolutely has to have a roommate to split the rent with. She can't afford it on her own. And my lease is actually coming up. So I wouldn't be leaving my roommates in a tough spot. And there are lots of people that they would be happy to have come and replace me if that works out. So they're open to my moving if I need to. And I would love to be with this friend where like sisters were so close, and we have such great history together,

but these roommates are so wonderful. I just, I don't know what to do, and I keep praying and praying, and I can't get an answer. And I said, well, let me ask you a couple of questions. I said, is this friend of yours, a member of the church? And she said, well, you know, not really. And honestly, that was enough right there.

But I went on, I said, so does she smoke, drain, do pot? Yeah, yeah, she does all those things sometimes. So she have guys over? Yeah, sometimes they stay over. I'm like, well, you know, here's another perspective. Why don't you stop praying about it? I don't, I don't, I don't we just do the math? Because I'm pretty sure God has revealed his opinion on these subjects before.

I'm pretty sure you don't need new revelation. But that's where we come to a lot of times. And we, this is not an uncommon situation among star membership where we come to a lot of times and we this is not an uncommon situation among star membership where we struggle to get new revelation about stuff that's kind of as plain as a nose on your face if you actually sit down and make the problem call us. Yeah. Yeah. And talk to somebody else and go, what do you think about this?

And they think, okay. I can see why they're here. Is it because people think they must be the exception or something? Because yeah, things seem so obvious that why would you even need to pray about that? I've heard President Steven Lund, the general young men's president say you're wondering young men whether you should go on a mission. Don't even pray about it. Just go. You know, because kind of the same, the Lord has has answered this before numerous times. Yeah. And I do think that people, you know, do sometimes want to be the exception,

or they, you know, we hear maybe some dramatic story about how they called somebody out of inactivity to be in this calling and it worked out really well. And so they, they sort of likeactivity to be in this calling and it worked out really well. And so they sort of like the glamour of something that's less logical or less typical or less predictable. And while I certainly don't limit the Lord, and I know that sometimes those things absolutely can happen, I would really emphasize that they are by far the exception rather than the rule.

The Lord knows what he's doing and he's very consistent and logical about it. And sometimes we're just looking for that kind of moment of glamour where it seems like, oh, this weird thing happened. In fact, I often refer to Nephi when I'm talking about this because I look at the reason that God could ask Nephi to execute Laban, and it was an execution, was not murder. But the reason he could even ask him was because Nephi was logical and he was consistently obedient. He didn't go all over the place with his emotions. He was very rational about like doing the things that he needed to do. You know, I know that the Lord gave him no commandment, and to the children of Mount Saviour, he should prepare a way.

So I'm going to do what the Lord says. That's what I'm going to do. And he's boringly consistent about it, which is a high bar. We should all be boringly consistent in our obedience to the Lord and what has already been revealed. And then God can say, okay, there's something new here. There's a higher law. And this needs to happen. of Nephi. And what does Nephi say? This is such a great example because his first response is that doesn't make any sense. I've never done that before.

Yeah. That doesn't fit. Yeah. Because he's thinking. He's not just willing to go off the feeling. He's like, but that doesn't make sense. It's not when he goes through that reasoning process. Yeah. Exactly. There's another principle here, better that one man should perish. Oh,

how can they have the commandment? Yeah. How can these people have the commandments? If I don't, what would happen? And he tried to kill us twice. And yeah. But it's, it's reason. It's reason. He's working with Nephi because Nephi is logical about consistently obeying and he's not quick to say like oh yeah sure In fact if you'd ask layman or Lemuel to do that they probably would have said oh yeah, where's the sword? I should have thought of it myself Because they were all over the board, you know sometimes they're they're obedient and then the next minute They're just totally just going off their emotions. They're swinging wide every time. And really, I

love this principle of the ideas, like, yes, you can be the exception because you never think of the exception. That's right. Yeah. You are so boringly consistent. And you know, I think that that, you know, just to go back to my own experience, there, I think I thought I was the exception when it came to motherhood because I was really good in academics. I was my skill set. And I thought, well, so maybe being a mother at full time is for other women who, you know, don't have this particular gift. And, and I'm so ashamed that I ever felt that way because I really learned and the Lord taught me and I'm so grateful for that that like, no, you're not the exception. These things I say to one, I say to all because they are the blessing. It is the blessing of

consistency. Be reasonable. Think it through. Why do we think we're an exception? And I've been enormously blessed because I realized I wasn't an exception. I, the default is the default. And yes, it doesn't mean that the Lord can't work with us once we are boringly consistent. But until we're boringly consistent, why would he mess with somebody who's already going off the rails any time they have an urge. It'd be like throwing gasoline on the fire. This is a very important principle, I think, because the Lord does have exceptions. We would never say, oh, yeah, there's never exceptions. I remember President Oaks saying it be why you. He said, yes, there's exceptions.

And if you think you're an exception, please don't write me a letter. Right? Like, then, hey, that's between you and the Lord. But I love this principle of you can be the exception because you never are. That's why it's an exception. Because you're always consistent. Well, and I think Lily could probably tell us

a hundred stories about, well, this guy's logically, this guy's not good for me. He treats me like this, but maybe I can save him or rescue him. And so maybe I should go ahead with something that's so illogical. Do you have some of those, Lily, or vice versa, a guy saying, I'm going to rescue this girl. Oh my goodness. And I tear out his helmet.

You know what? That person already has a savior. And it's not you. They already have a savior. Why don't you get out of the way and let the savior do his business? But you make a logical decision. I used to have students that would come up to me at the way. And anyway, that was such a delight to speak with those young people, but they'd come and say, I'm dating this person. And, you know, they check all these boxes, and, you know, they'd go down a really good list A thoughtful list about

Compatibilities and of course devotion to the gospel was first and then you know even family back whatever all these wonderful things that they had discovered about each other through Good reasoning good talking good reasoning good exploration Studying it out in their minds and then they'd say but I I just can't get a confirmation. And I'd say, you mean another confirmation? Didn't you just give me one? That you have studied it out in your mind, and this is exactly what the Lord says to do. And you've been thoughtful and prayerful about your study and exploration,

and you both feel this way, like another. Anyway, it's interesting how sometimes we get this romanticized version that it has to be oh, has to be, you know, the swirling of winds or it has to be a voice or it has to be an angel or have to have this burning. And as we know, President Oak said, if you have to have a burning the bosom to feel the spirit of the, then I've never had it because I never have it. And I never have either. So I think that it is it's kind of this romanticized idea versus like, come on, let's think. This be consistent and reasonable. Let's use the brain God gave us and use the

information. He has revealed his sub his opinion on these topics again and again, we probably don't need new revelation on this. Let's just be consistent. Then there it goes on, of course, into marvelous stuff. But that that gem for me is it makes 50 a real favorite. But then it goes on, of course, into marvelous stuff. But that gem for me makes 50, a real favorite. But then he goes on and says, beautiful things. Verse 17, The early Isaiah unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter in the spirit of truth, death he preached by the spirit of truth or some other way. And if it be by some other way, it is not of God. So, you know, he's basically saying again that the best teaching is always through the spirit. You know, the spirit is

to confirm truth. And that's what he asked Joseph Smith, right? And to what we are deemed to preach my gospel by the spirit, even the comforter, which was sent forth to teach the truth. So it's all connected here, and he's repeating this idea again and again. Like let's just remember that the Spirit is to confirm truth, and we know that that's one of the Holy Ghost's huge responsibilities, which is to manifest the truthfulness of all things. So we need to teach by the Spirit, and if you teach by the Spirit and someone receives by the Spirit, that's ideal. Now, we know that people can learn even from a bad lesson.

Elder Scott gave a beautiful speech on that years ago about how if you're tapped into the Spirit, you can learn in any situation. So the Spirit of Truth can teach us even if we're not being taught necessarily by the Spirit of Truth. And the backstory here is these false spirits. And I don't know what they were doing or saying, but here the Lord is saying, did that edify you? Right. Exactly right.

Yeah. There was some tendency among some of the members to say I'm feeling the spirit and kind of throw themselves on the floor. Shake about. You know, to stand up and scream or just stand up and start yelling. We can tongue, but nobody could translate it because if you're going to speak in tongues, there has to be someone to hear it. Exactly.

Here in translate so that it can't edify and uplift, not just manifest some kind of, woo, you know, right. And it seems that maybe they thought, well, if that's not happening, then that's not, nobody's been taught. And he's saying, no, no, no, it's totally fine. I love this to be boringly consistent. It's, in fact, that's probably the best. Well, you know, edify yourself.

If I bring up something that he nibbly said once that I thought was so funny, he says, you'd pray to see an angel, all he's going to do is quote scripture. So you might as well just read what you've already got. And that sounds like the boringly consistent part. You know, we've got, we've got the message already. If we need some sort of strange manifestation, well, in this case, strange, because they were doing, I mean, as we've read the backstory, kind of strange things. And I love the clarity that the Lord brings here. It's a very strange thing. I love the clarity that the Lord brings here. It's total clarity.

Then this powerful verse, which has meant a ton to me in my life as well, and to many of us, verse 24, that which is of God is light, and he that receiveeth light and continue within God, receiveeth more light. And that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day. That's kind of the whole enchilada right there. I mean, receive light. Now, of course, she says you have to also continue in God. And what does that mean? That's that boring consistency. You are consistent with that light. You bring your life into greater harmony with that ideal, with the new light that you've received.

And then I can give you more, and you'll continue on this upward trajectory and have more and more like until the perfect day. And there's so many good things that need to be kind of added to this. One of them is Luke 8. Because here's the other side of the coin, right? The warning part, Luke 8, 18, take

heed therefore how ye hear, for whosoever he hath, to him shall be given, and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he's seeneth to have, or another place that's maybe even a little more clear. Second Nephi 28, Merchth 30. It's in the footnotes, yeah. It's in the footnotes. Thank you. That's right. I will give into the children of men lying upon line, precip upon precip here, a little there, a little less that are those who harken into my precepts

and lend a near to my counsel for they shall learn wisdom. For unto him that receive it, I will give more. And from them which shall say, we have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have. It's not static. The world's not static. Life is not static. We're growing in light or we're losing light.

That's what's happening. And how do we receive and grow? We have to be boringly consistent about bringing our lives into consistency with the light. If that's something that I you know I heard in conference and it touched me and I felt like you know I should do more of that or I should do less of that. That was light. That was light that the spirit was confirming to us. There's this, this is another step for us individually to take. So how do I get more light? I have to listen to that

prompting. I have to follow it. I have to change. I have to, and it, you know, changes doesn't happen. There's a counselor, people asking all the time, do you really think people can change, you know, can elaborate change at spots, tiger changes, right? And my answer is like, of course, that's what the atonement is all about is the potential for change. But that said, not that many people want to change because it's really hard. We have to give up something to change. We get so comfortable with the way we are that by definition, improvement means we're going to be uncomfortable for a while. We're going to put ourselves into an unknown place where we haven't really been before or colonized that territory before and it's uncomfortable. It feels weird

and it's easy to rush back into the comfort zone. But if we want to receive more light, if we want to be in this opening up spiral of growing and light until that perfect day, we need to bring our lives into harmony with the light that we receive. Those promptings remember that story about President Watson when he was a young bishop and he's in this stake meeting and he gets this prompting that he should go visit this brother in the hospital. And yeah, I better stay till the state presence done speaking or whatever. And I think he does get up if during the song or before the prayer or something but he does wait a while before he leaves and when he gets there the brother just died asking for him and it changed his whole life he said because now it's like if the Lord speaks I need to be quick to obey and and there's something

so important about that because the God gives us this light, but it's not gonna, what does He say? The Spirit shall not always strive with man. I'm giving you my best stuff. I mean, it's light. And I am the light in the life of the world. This is me, and I'm giving this precious thing to you. And if you don't pick it up and move forward with it,

it's gonna be gone. And not that we should be like terrified or fearful about some clock ticking somewhere, but there needs to be this alacrity. I like that word, this desire to move forward and say, boy, I've had that thought a few times, I really need to act on it. I need to move forward.

I need to give that old behavior up. I need to stop that bad habit. I need to develop this good habit. And then the light continues to grow. Or he takes away even what we had. And we've all heard this before. But I noticed it even before Sherry Dew said it, as just as in my life before even being a counselor that sin makes you stupid. People, people that we know that are bright people. And then they do things makes you stupid. People that we know that are bright people and then they do things and you're just like that person knows better. I know they know better, but they're, why are they doing this? And it's because the light has shut down and they lose intelligence. Can I just share something else that I absolutely

love? Abraham 319. Remember where God is teaching Abraham about intelligence and he says the Lord said unto me these two facts do exist that there are two spirits One being more intelligent than the other There should be another more intelligent than they know me pause there for a second What does that mean that a spirit is more intelligent than another spirit. Like, they have a brighter IQ, you know? Like, is that what that means? You know? I don't think so. I think that intelligence, because what do we read? And isn't it section 93 that talks about light and truth and intelligence are all the same thing? Light, truth and intelligence, it's all the same. So I think what God is saying here to Abraham is that the difference between the intelligence of spirits

is that one will receive the light more quickly than the other. Maybe the other isn't receiving it at all, but if they are receiving it more slowly, this one is quick. The receive light and continue in God. So they it more slowly. This one is quick. The receive light and continue in God. So they receive more light. And that light is intelligence. And like we said, the withdrawal of the light makes us stupid or less intelligent. But doing the right thing makes us brighter.

I mean, in every way, but it is, it's truly a brain function. You remember that President Nelson gave a speech when President Hinckley was the prophet about how president Hinckley was a multifaceted genius? And there are lots of stories about that. Like some Asian scholar came to BYU and professor arranged an interview with Hinckley and and this guy walked away saying, why do I not know about this man? He understands more about Asia than anybody I've ever talked to. Who is a professional? And it wasn't his expertise, although he had spent a lot of time there for the church. But it was his willingness to follow the light that made his mind quick.

And then it was everything else too. Like there were so many stories like that. And I would say that, you know, I read the biography of President Hinkley, and he didn't start out in school as some kind of genius kid that all the teachers were just blown away by or that just, you know, rocked all the standardized tests. No, it was because he continued in light. So God could work with his brain and give him that facility, that quickness, that light. And it is not about IQ, it's about goodness, it's about adaptability, the ability to speak to people, to connect with them, to know what is needed, to receive the spirit,

to understand the spirit of truth that makes sense. It all goes together. To me, this is just like, this is rock star stuff that the Lord is telling us. Receive the light. Do you remember Elder Hales? He talked about a bicycle he had as a kid. And he said, the light on my bicycle was attached to my pedals. So the faster I pedaled, the brighter the light. And so he said, I got really good at pedaling.

And he said, and when I stopped pedaling, the light went dark. And this is the idea of you receive truth. If you'll live that truth, I'll give you more light. And if you, if, with that light, you're going to see more truth. And if you're going to live that truth, I'll give you even more light. Listen to this. This is one of those moments. Do you remember, Dr. Millet John said, this is one of those moments where you look at Joseph Smith and go, what manner of man is this? Right? Who says stuff like this? How would he just know this?

Listen to this statement. Yeah. He says this, we consider that God, this is Joseph Smith, we consider that God has created man with a mind capable of instruction and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heed and diligence given to the light communicated from heaven to the intellect. And that the nearer man, and we'd say mankind, men and women, the nearer men and women approach perfection, the clearer are their views, and the greater their enjoyment, till they have overcome all the evils of this life, and lost every desire for sin, and like the ancients arrives at that point of faith, where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with him.

I mean, that is exactly what we're talking about here. Live the truth you've been given, and you will get more light. But don't live the truth you've been given and you will get more light. But don't live the truth you've been given and you'll lose the light and with less light, you'll see less truth. And it'll be darkness and confusion. And sometimes those verses that we've talked about sound kind of unfair, I'm going to give to those who have and take from those who don't have. But you have to notice the meaning of the word receive. It's I'm going to give to those who have and take from those who don't have. But you have to notice the meaning of the word receive. It's I'm going to let it in.

It's like when we confer the Holy Ghost, it's not now the Holy Ghost will come upon you whether you wanted or not. It's receive it. And that is something you must do. So you use that phrase, head and diligence. I've got to let it in. And that's why I love, I mean, I said in an earlier podcast, section 19 was one of my favorites,

and but boy, 50, and that verse 24, because I receive the light, I tell my students, like a wedding reception, you receive guests, you let it in, and if you receive it, and give heat and diligence to it, you get more. Can I throw something else in here because the rest of the verse or section, I mean, God talks a little bit about how you can understand, you know, what's from the Spirit and what's from him and what's not. And he says in verse 31, it shall come to pass that if you behold a Spirit manifested

that you cannot understand. There it is again. There it is again to pass that if you behold a spirit manifested that you cannot understand. There it is again. There it is again. Wow. And you receive not that spirit, you shall ask of the Father in the name of Jesus, and he, if he give not unto you that spirit or understanding, if he doesn't explain it, or if it doesn't start to make sense or fit with what has already been received, then you may know it is not of God,

because God doesn't work against himself. So if it comes and it's confusing, well, it's probably not of God, but you can ask just to make sure there's something more that you need to understand, but if you don't get understanding, dismiss it. Confusion is not of God. He doesn't work against himself.

Remember when Christ comes to the Nephites, and at the end of the first day, where he has just blown them away with all this wonderful teaching with the true gospel taught from the Savior himself. And what does he say at the end? He says, I see that some of you have not understood. Go home and ponder. Yeah. Go home and think about it. And pray that you can understand, that's exactly what he's saying here and pray that you can understand. That's exactly what he's saying here. Pray that you can understand because it's important to God

that we understand, that we get to the sense of it, to the how it affects my life for the better, how it makes me a better person, more like Jesus Christ, not some window shop Pharisee where I look good to the crowd, but like where it actually rubber hits the road and I become a better man, a better woman, a better husband, a better father, better mother, better wife, a better sister brother, and an uncle, roommate, member of my community, colleague, boss, employee. If it doesn't, you know, hit the

ground running and change us for the better, it's not of God. Because those are the things that bring us to Christ, something that is workable, it's tangible, it makes sense, I can take it home and do something with it. I don't have just this like, oh, that was a really cool spiritual moment, but I really actually have no idea how that's going to change my life tomorrow or today. It has to be tangible, it has to be concrete, it has to be pragmatic. And then look at that, he says that you'll have power over that spirit, verse 32, and you shall proclaim against this spirit with a loud voice, it is not

of God. Then interestingly, not with railing accusation, that you be not overcome. In other words, don't go contentious on me. And don't get all, you know, like into some kind of fit or frenzy about like, oh, you get out of it, you know, just be calm. You know what this is. You can tell truth from air, light from dark, just dismiss it. Not with railing accusation that you be not overcome,

neither with boasting nor rejoicing. We just talked about recognition and the problem of trying to appear like, woo, this is making me something really hot and special here. Lest you be seized therewith. Like, this is a humble process. This just makes sense of it. And if it makes sense, it's of God.

And if it doesn't make sense, it's not dismiss it. And don't go all crazy about how you dismiss it. Just get rid of it. Now, I want to, I just can't help myself. I have to talk about Moses one because this is another example of the comparison between white and dark and good and evil and how Moses makes this distinction. And I just, anyway, such a tremendous story here of Moses who has been in the presence of God and then basically passes out for several hours because that transfiguration was exhausting, right? And then he comes to himself, it says, I forget the place many hours, Moses did again receive his natural strength, like a man

and he said unto himself, and this is the understatement of the century, right? Now for this cause, I know that man is nothing, which thing I had never before supposed to be like, I kind of had no clue about the real light and me and how much he wants to give me, how much he has to give me. And here I am, but he's receiving it. So that's pretty cool. And then he says, you know, my eyes have been held to God, but not my natural, my spiritual eyes. And then, verse 12, when he had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him because every time and we've seen this in the restoration, when new light is coming, Satan is right there, trying to sniff it out. That's what he does. He wants to stuff. Of

course, he's never succeeded. He's this man. He's not even a man. He's he's this evil dark story. He has never succeeded. He's this man. He's not even a man. He's this evil dark story. He is never succeeded, but he doesn't stop trying until he's vanquished at the end. So here he comes, Moses, son of man, worship me. Now, look at how Moses responds. This is so classic. It came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said, who art thou? And I think if we translate this correctly, would say, like, what did you say you must? For behold, I am a Son of God. And where is Thichlory that I should worship thee? Like, I, you know, light, no light. I've seen the light. I've seen the light. No contest. Like, what did you say your name was? But like, why would I do that?

And then, interestingly, and he talks about how he, you know, couldn't look upon God without being transfigured, but he can look upon Satan and the natural man. And then, where is thy glory? For it is darkness into me, and I can judge. There it is, I can judge between thee and God. And this is all about judgment. You know, sometimes we get this false idea in the church. It's one of our favorite false doctrines

that we shouldn't judge. And that's that's a really, really false doctrine. We can't condemn. We'd have to be omniscient like God to condemn people. That's not our business. We don't know enough. But to judge, we have to judge. How do you use your agency without making a judgment? And what do we judge? Light and dark. Is this leading me to Christ or a way? Is this making sense or is it confusion and darkness? We're judging all the time.

And as I said when I was going through my graduate program, I made judgments every day. I heard all kinds of expert stuff, you know, whatever. And some of it fit beautifully with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I could judge, oh, that is correct. Those ideas are helpful and correct. It's a good take on this because it fits with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And this stuff, no, that absolutely conflicts with the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn't make sense in light of the Gospel. It is not true. End of story. End of story. Light or dark, true through error.

Does it fit? Does it not fit? Does it add and edify to my understanding of God and His truth and His Gospel and faith. Repentance, baptism in the gift of Holy Ghost or not. The Moses makes this judgment and says it. I can judge between being God. For God said unto me, worship God for him only shall thou serve. Get the hence Satan to see me not.

And then interestingly a few verses later, it says that Satan cried with a loud voice and rented upon the earth. I think you probably had a tantrum. He thinks he's like, are you kidding me? I was hoping to get some traction here and snuff this light out. And you're just so out of hand able to dismiss me. I am the only begotten, worship me.

And then Moses began to fear exceedingly. And as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Fear is what made him a little bit too susceptible for a moment to the powers of Satan. Yeah. We don't have to be afraid. If we know the light from the dark, we don't have to be, and that's exactly where Moses goes. He goes back to what he knows. nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength and commanded saying, depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory, the light, not the darkness. This is what the gospel is about.

It's light versus dark, truth versus error, and it enlighten us in every area of our lives. It makes us better at everything we do. It makes us better in our interpersonal relationships. It makes us at peace with ourselves. It makes us because we improve and fulfill our potential and we cast our sins away through the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we're able to become new and better and progress and we receive that light. And it becomes a part of us and more light is coming right behind it. I didn't mean for this to happen,

but I have learned a lot about parenting in this section. So it seems a Lord gets a little frustrated with the hypocrisy and just the bad decisions that have been made. And then he says, okay, let's talk it through. Let's talk this through together. And he's very kind to them, right? Now, look, this is what I taught you. This is what you did. See how those

those those do don't line up. Let's give me some examples here. And then he says, let's just everyone stay calm. Let's do that. I mean, I just love the spirit of teaching of this section. Because even says at the end, you are little children. He says that in verse 40, you are little children at the end, you are little children. He says that in verse 40, you are little children. If you're not, right, he kind of increases his love to them after he's set a boundary and told them, listen, this is you've gone beyond the boundary, this is how you stay in the boundary. And then he follows up with all this, this love and personal interaction. I love what you've done here. The section itself makes you feel something. It's a powerful section. You feel like you would just want to be better, right? I want to be better. It's a theme that's repeated again and again that Christ is the light and the life.

And this idea of knowledge, and as we've said, the doctrine of covenants is an example of how Joseph Smith grew from line-up online, precipitum, from light to light, from grace to grace. So this whole thing is about the growth of light, that light coming back to the earth, you know, the light of the restoration that has blessed the entire planet. I can't find it, if any of you know where it is,

let me know, but there's a chart that I saw and I was an undergrad about how inventions have been tracked in the history of the world. And you know, like when they invented the wheel or when they invented this or whatever. And it was pretty slow for most of the history of mankind. And then it hits 1820.

And it goes like sky high. The light and truth came to the earth. And it didn't just come to the saints, although of course, Joseph Smith was the Prophet of the Restoration, and this was the instrument through which the light came. And all of these early saints that believed and sacrificed to receive the light and continue in God, but light poured out on the planet. You know, it is a battle between light and dark and lightness. Light always wins.

Light always banishes darkness. I love what you said about children. And you know that in DNC 93, again, speaking of light, God tells us, I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth. And you're right, this is a great pattern for us as parents did, that reason with our children. And that is the process of transferring values, by the way, which the family is the only organization on the planet that is designed to transfer values. And we are seeing so many failures of that around, even with people of King Benjamin,

remember, who were so basically sanctified in that moment where they had no more desire to do to sin but to do good continually. But their children, we learned many chapters later, their children didn't believe. So even there, there was a gap. Now, let's not be unkind here. The product of parenting is the parent. It's not the child. God Himself offers light Himself, you know, offers light and truth to everybody, but not all his children receive it. So it's not about condemning ourselves if our children, you know, make mistakes or choose a different path. That's not- They choose the different. Yeah, it's- but it is about making sure that we become more God-like in our parenting and that we access the truth and we do try to help them understand the values of these things and And what is right and what is wrong and to speak without shame about the gospel and to be bold

I know that that bit about you know where Christ told the people that I can see that you did not have not understood That's where and I love the Lord saying let's let's talk this through. He's not coming in and and grounding everybody. He's like, let's talk this through together. Okay, and it's almost like here at the end, he's like, okay, everybody ready? All right, I love you. If you're not, go try again. Go give it another shot.

I am in your midst. I am the good shepherd. He says in verse 44, you build upon this rock, you won't fall. You're okay. You're okay. Let's move forward. Yeah, I really like the spirit of this section of humility and truth rather than, you know, rather than trying to come in and say, I'm going to fix everybody.

He's like, let's talk together. I want you to understand. And don't worry about those hypocrites. I'm gonna eat the tarot gonna grow together. I'll take care of it when it's time. You don't worry about it. But just you learn truth. You learn truth and don't be a hypocrite.

But you learn truth. Okay, so that he says feast on the words of Christ. This is familiar stuff, right? And then look at the consistency. The words of Christ will tell you all things what you should do. So that's the reason we have the words of Christ. Now that's the scriptures and the words of the prophet.

And why? So that we can know what to do. Like we were saying, it's gotta have rubber hitting the road. How do I live? How do I become a better person, a better son of God, a better daughter of God, a better individual, better in all my roles. Feast on the words, because they're going to tell you all things what you should do. And then he says,

if you don't know anymore about that, it's because you don't ask or knock and you're going to end up perishing in the dark, not brought into light. But if you'll enter in by the way, okay, that's beautiful. And receive the Holy Ghost. We talked about how active that has to be. It, and then what? It will show you all things what you should do. So look, first, it's the scriptures and the words of the prophet, which are, let's face it, fairly generic. What I say to one, I say to all, because everybody needs this. And these are principles of eternity. They are truth that everybody can use and improve their lives by living consistently with those words. But then if you persist and you receive the Holy Ghost

in a sanctifying experience, so now he is your constant companion. It's not that he comes once in a while when you're in a good place. He is with you all the time because you are living so consistently that you don't offend him. Because otherwise, you know, when I like start to do jerky stuff or I'm not kind or I'm, you know, not living the way I should, that I'm offending the spirit and it's going to flee from me. But saying to fight individuals are so consistent that the spirit can be their constant companion. And they've had this physical change in everything that Joseph Smith said, the senses are in livened. I don't know if that means colors are bright or whatever, but like I'm anxious to learn that. And then it says, once you're

sanctified and have a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, it will show you all things you should do. Now, the Holy Ghost isn't going to contradict the scriptures, of course. Like you were saying, if an angel comes, he's going to quote scripture because God is consistent. There's an inherent and internal consistency. It's logical, it's understandable, it edifies it makes sense. But it's going to be more personal. Mike, it's going to help me understand how to magnify my, my four ordinations. Like, the things in my patriarchal blessing that are gifts that God wants me to magnify or explore or that he has in store for me.

The Holy Ghost is going to help me understand exactly how I can do that and what he tells me then I better do that. And then just to wrap it up like my husband has a great thought here he's worked with missionaries forever and of course they can really anxious. And somebody comes in and gives a speech about being the best missionary, they can be and they all get anxious because they're not sure they're the best. And my husband looked at the scriptures and said, you know, God never says to be the best that you can be. He says, be diligent. Are you being diligent?

And if they're being diligent, if we're being diligent, that's on the path. It is consistent to be diligent. We just, you know, we fall down and scrape our knees when we get back up. Now I do think that we have to be careful that we're not repenting of the same sins all the time. I used to try to tell my seminary students, you know, it's not like there's a revolving door on the bishops' office.

But you're not supposed to be in there every week. Confessing the same sin. Like, you do have to change, you know? But that doesn't mean it isn't a process. And some things are harder to shake than others. So God is patient, but He knows the difference between diligence and laxity. And we just need to make sure that we want what He has to give, that we want it enough to do the uncomfortable work of change by definition, it's uncomfortable. It's new, it's different. It takes a while for it

to become familiar and ours and for us to own it. But that's the journey and it's a marvelous journey and there's a happy ending for everybody. Right. As you receive light, your desires change. You might be sitting here going, I don't want all that. Well, I promise you, as you are living this light, it will change your desires. In fact, I wanted to mention one verse that I just love because there might be someone listening going, I want all this, but I can't overcome my addictions. I can overcome my sins.

Look, verse 35, by giving heed and doing these things which you have received and which you shall hear after receive. And the kingdom is given you of the Father and power to overcome all things which are not ordained of him. As you continue to just be obedient, obedient to what you can, you will get the power to overcome those things

that you feel like you cannot. And I've experienced that, and I've seen many other people experience that idea of, oh, I'll never overcome this. It's just who I am. No, the Lord will give you power to overcome. That light and truth will give you power to overcome things that you thought I'll never be able to overcome. I've noticed in this section for me personally, it's a very, gives you a lot of purpose, right? Why am I getting up today? Why am I doing what I'm doing? Because I want to live the truth I've been given so I can get more light, so I can see more truth. This day's tomorrow's exciting because if I live the light and truth I've been given,

I'm going to get more. And then you both, you and John talked about the perfect day, right? Section 24 or Section 50 verse 24. There is a day coming that you can have that perfect day. And it's perfect because of him because he's perfect. Is there anything else about section 50 before we ask our last question, John? You feel like you I just want to throw in that I have used section 50 verse 24 at the end of a fireside quite a bit. And I love to say, if you don't remember anything else, I remember today, would you please remember three words, continue in God. And some people, they run into a challenge or a doctor or a policy or something and they

discontinue God. And you won't find light in the dark. I love to tell them about a song when I was a teenager looking for love and all the wrong places and the idea of you don't the same way. You don't find light in the dark. I think President Nelson said in conference rehearsing doubts in the company of other doubters or something like that. And no, you look, you, it please, I plead with anybody, if you're having an issue, continue in God, stay in the light and seek more light. And don't discontinue God because you won't find light there, but continue in God. And that is where you can receive more light and grow. And so I love that verse and that three word sermon. Continue in God. John, that is awesome. John Lillie, both of you, these have just been awesome insights.

Dr. Anderson Lillie, you are a scholar and a counselor. Your parents were scholars. You come from a family of scholars. You're also a mother and a grandmother. we would love our listeners to hear your personal thoughts on Joseph Smith, the restoration, and what it has done for you personally in both your professional life and your personal life. I do come from thinkers. My parents actually came to this country with nothing after they served missions elsewhere. And they didn't even have high school diplomas. They took the GED so that they could get to BYU and they worked as janitors and did everything

they could and lived on pennies so that they could participate in this process of education. My father did his three college degrees in his second language. My mother did her three college degrees in her third language, and her mastery was complete. These were brilliant people, but they were self-educated until they got to college by reading and I said, now they both had the gospel and their youth, but they didn't have much access to the church organization. My dad and his family were basically only family in Piedro de Negres,

well with his uncle's family for a while, but then they went to Southío and there were some cousins there, but they really were on their own without organized church until he went on a mission, basically, or shortly before his mission, actually, he moved to Monterey, Mexico and there was a ward there, but he was already a teenager. My mother, you know, the branch in France, when they joined the church, they had like six people, including the missionaries. Well, maybe it was seven with the missionaries, but you know, it was, you know, they heard Huber J. Grant, who came to Paris, and they traveled to Paris from Arleon in order to hear him speak. And he at that time was still issuing the prophetic invitation to gather to Zion, meaning Utah. So that was the journey they began, even though it took them over eight years to get from France through Argentina. And she was the

first lady missionary in Uruguay, actually, but then finally to get to the United States and come to BYU where they studied. But my parents knew the gospel was true, even though they had limited access to the, I mean, we think of the information age we're in now and at a touch of a finger on any device we can get just more information than we can shake us to God. But my parents were seekers and they wanted to understand and they taught me that. They taught me that you can understand and keep looking until you understand. God wants you to understand and to know, but they always approached it as the God that God is right. So let's find out why he's right. Let's not ask whether or not he's right. Let's find out why he's right or how it looks that he is right. And in fact,

I could have read the one little verse after in Abraham 3 after God says, you know, there are two intelligences. There's one more than tells the other and a third will be more intelligent them. And then what does he say? He says, I am the Lord that God am more intelligent than they all. In other words, isn't that sad he has to put it in print? Just in case you forget, I'm smarter than you. I'm smarter than everybody. I have all the light. So that was a great privilege to grow up with people who knew God spoke the truth. I've always been a little irritated by the fact that we've always been a little irritated by the fact that we've sort of had this term in the church

called the Mormon intellectuals, meaning people who talk themselves out of their testimonies because they study so much, right? And I thought, was that make the rest of us job liver? Like, because I'm not, you know, I don't disbelieve or I haven't lost my faith, I don't have a thought in my head, I don't have an intellect, I don't disbelieve or I haven't lost my faith. I don't have a thought in my head. I don't have an intellect. I don't think about things or become analytical or seek and try to understand. Anyway,

and of course one of my heroes was when I met many heroes in the gospel as heunibli who you want to talk about in intellectual. I mean the man spoke what was it? 16 languages and could read another eight or two. I don't remember it was amazing. And that man was a staunch defender of the Book of Mormon and a defender of the faith. And I have always wanted also to be a defender of the faith because I love it. It makes sense to me. It answers all my questions. Now, not all at once. I remember in college, there were a couple of things I didn't understand about the church or the gospel and I was the church and I And I went to every religion professor I could get to on BYU campus and I asked them my questions and none of them had a good answer for me Good men that they were they were good and they shared what they could share

But they didn't really answer my question and you know what? I asked myself some questions at that point, and I said, do I believe God loves me? Yes, I do. Do I believe He loves all His children? I absolutely do. I know He is no respecter of persons. He loves each of us in our own station and our own lives the way we are. He loves us. We are His. Though I believe He wants me to be happy and all those other children that He loves. Yes,

I absolutely believe that in His perfect goodness, in His perfect mercy and His perfect grace and love, He wants us to be happy. And then here was the pivotal question, do I believe he knows better than I do how that happiness is to come? How I'm going to get there. How that's going to come into my life. And that was the Abraham 3 answer. Yeah, I do believe he is more intelligent than I am. I mean, they nodded to their own understanding.

And I thought, you know, that's again, if I don't understand something, that's my problem. It's not God's. And I believe that he will reveal that to me. I listened to Susan Black just earlier this week and her podcast with you. And I felt the resonance of what she said when she said that she had dozen questions, or I don't remember how many questions that she wrote down when she was young and that at this point in her life about 86% of them have

been answered, that's exactly how I feel. There were really just a couple, but I feel like I have at least an 86% understanding of them. And it came line upon line, it distilled like the do's of heaven because I wasn't ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater, because I saw how good God is, because I, like Alma says, doesn't it all just testify of God? You know, everything demonstrates his love if we have the ability to see it. And I know that some people haven't felt that love. I've worked with people who haven't felt the love of the Lord. And it breaks my heart. But I know that it's not because he doesn't love them. It's because they've been wounded and they've been hurt in ways

that make it hard for them to receive that love. And the answer is for them to heal their receptors. And I've helped a lot of people who have decided to do that. And they do it, they do the work, but we can help each other heal our receptors so we can feel the love of God. And that's the answer. Because if God is good and he loves me, then all the rest of this is going to work out just fine. And he is so much smarter than I am. I'm not going to beat my head against, you know, foolishness and say, well, I don't get it right now. I mean, okay, well, maybe there are some things that I'm still looking to understand better. But that list has gotten smaller and smaller over the years.

Of course, I'm getting old, but it's gotten smaller and smaller because the Lord is kind. And He does reveal things to those who have faith in Him. So it really does come down to a choice. We say, I know the church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. And I love it when people say that. I don't have a problem with that. But in actual fact, we choose to believe it instead of believing something else.

And we could believe that he's not a prophet. We could believe he was just a fraud. It doesn't make any sense. You can't have these kinds of fruits without good roots. It's impossible. Remember what they said in Acts about Jesus Christ when they were trying to decide whether to go get out and get the apostles and round them up or whatever. Okay, I'm going to forget my details here. You'll have to help me. But it was when somebody says, you know, no, leave it alone. It's Gamaliel. Yeah, Gamaliel says. If it's not of God, nothing will happen.

Yeah. It'll just, it'll work its way through. But if it's a, you know, watch out. If it's of God, you'll find yourself fighting against God himself. And that's exactly what the story is here. That you can't fight against the record of the church. This is the growth, the magnitude, the goodness that comes from this, all the excellence,

all the light, all the ways to live. How many people say things like, well, I don't really believe, but I want my children to be raised that way. You're like, well, okay, you're seeing part of it, but you're missing the big connection there, which is that you can't get those kinds of fruits without roots. You just can't. And the roots are real. I choose to believe those things every day. And I'm so grateful for Joseph Smith. Once my husband and I were attending a professional conference in Rochester,

in New York. And so we would take in the afternoon, we would have some time, and we would go off and see church history sites. We got to the sacred grove later in the afternoon, and the tours were over, and the missionaries all had a meeting. So they just sort of pointed and said, it's that way. So we had the wonderful opportunity to be there alone. And just to kind of wander there and we found some benches and we sat there and it was still light enough. It wasn't dark. It was just later afternoon and beautiful.

And and we decided to say a prayer. And my husband asked me to say the prayer. And I couldn't even laugh the words. I felt so overcome with gratitude for Joseph Smith. And for the goodness of God and his beloved Son Jesus Christ to work through that firm boy with his good heart and his seeking mind to bring this into my life and to my children and to my grandchildren. I am so grateful for all the good. I cannot

deny the goodness of it. It makes too much sense. As a counselor, I have found that all the answers really are in the gospel of Jesus Christ. If I didn't know it before, I knew it after because every problem has its solution in the doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He has all the balm for all our wounds. He has all the solutions for all our problems. I do work with nonmembers. Sometimes I, of course, in Utah, most of my clientele are Ratterty Saints.

I work occasionally with people who are raised in the church, but are no longer believers or they're less active at this point in their lives. I just change the vocabulary because the principles are the same. They're the same. And why would I give them anything but the best? All the answers are to seek the light and conform our lives to it, to continue

in God. Great phrase there, John. I love that you use that in that kind of way. That's a marvelous three word sermon, as you say. Continue in God. Give him a chance to manifest his love because the goodness is there. But the love for us is an individual. I mean, we've all said this, right? But how tender that the first word that broke the silence of millennia between heavens and earths was Joseph's name. Silence for centuries, but he says Joseph before he says anything else.

And he could have said Lily. And he does. He says that if I have the ears to hear He's speaking to me too. I heard his words in the doctrine of covenants when I was 16 and I've loved him ever since and it gave me a great love of all Scripture and of course then I went on to the book of Mormon which has gold nuggets on every page and you know The Old Testament and New Testament which are other testaments that are so beautiful, the Pearl of Great Price, with all its gems. It's, it's there. It's there for the taking.

We need to feast. I don't know if that answers the question. I can't imagine a life without the gospel of Jesus Christ. Thank you. And I have to say, this is all about the Savior. It's all about the Savior. What He did for us is matchless, and I love Him for loving me in that way. And I know this is His church.

I said it. I know. I feel it in my bones, in my soul, that this is His church. And I love Him for giving it to us. My goodness, John, we have, once again, now section 49 and 50 are my new favorites. They're my new favorites. It's just incredible. I'm, I'm just not only continuing press by the minds we have who visit us, John, but I'm continuing press by these revelations.

I'm seeing him in a new way going, I'll never see them the same and every, every week I'm making new notes. And I mean, I've seen the word spirit of truth. I've under, it's about six times in there. Truth has a spirit. Oh my goodness. I've seen the word understanding, Lily, the way I hadn't seen it in this section before that, oh, so thank you for being with us today. Yeah. You, what a wonderful opportunity. I've had a wonderful time. All of this coming from a 26 year old, I think at this point, a 25 year old farm boy in his contemporaries.

Right. With three years of form. Yeah. You can't have the fruits without the roots. I heard that too. That's beautiful. Well, thank you, Dr. Anderson, for being with us. Thank you to all of you for listening.

We're grateful for your continued support. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. We want to thank our production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Kyle Nelson, Will Staten, and Andrew Morton. And we hope you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you