Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 60-62 : Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat Part I

Episode Date: May 29, 2021

Have you ever felt that your efforts fall short? Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat returns and teaches how the elders are called to travel from Kirtland to Jackson County, Missouri, and, “Preach by the way.” In their month-long travels, some work harder than others and the Lord addresses this and us and encourages us to remember that our testimony of the gospel is like a “talent.” This episode encourages us to serve and teach because the Lord is with us, as with the early Saints.Show notes: https://followhim.co/episodesYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together we follow him. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith and I am here with my engaging co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John. We used to say at BYU when our fellow award members became

engaged, they were in gagged. You could never find them to do their home teaching anymore, too. Well, it came from our last interview with Alex our last interview with Alex Ball with Dr. Ball. As we talked about, anxiously engaged. Hey, I need to remind everybody, you can find us on social media, Instagram and Facebook. You can go to our website, follow him.co, follow him.co for transcripts, um, references, anything you need. Uh, You can also rate and review the podcast. We'd love it if you'd do that. John, who is our guest expert today? I got to tell you, I'm pretty excited.

We are excited to have Garrett Durkman back. And he did with us, what was it? Hey, section three. Section three, when we were just getting started, we were just, we were brand new podcasters, John. Now we know we're so experienced now. Yeah. And so we're so excited to have him having back because we had so much fun and since that time I've seen him on history of the saints and a bunch of other places. So let me refresh our audience's memory about Garrett.

Garrett to J. Durkmot is an assistant professor of church history and doctrine at BYU. He received his PhD from the University of Colorado. Go Buffaloes in 2010 where he studied 19th century American expansionism and foreign relations. His dissertation was titled, Enemies Foreign and Domestic US Relations with Mormons in the US Empire in North America, 1844 to 1854. He worked as a historian and writer for the Church History Department from 2010 to 2014 with the Joseph Smith Papers project and served as a volume co-editor historian for Documents Volume 1. The lead volume editor on Documents Volume 3 has continued to work as a volunteer editor for the Joseph Smith papers project on administrative records, Council of 50 minutes, March 824 to January 846, and Documents Volume 8. How would you like everything Hank, that you had ever written or texted

or posted to be compiled in a book one day? I know. He's the co-author, along with Michael Hubbard, McCay, of the award-winning book, From Darkness Untalight, which I am still waiting for the notification from the Salt Lake County Library to go pick up. Maybe I should just go buy one. From darkness Untalight, you would say. I was like, God, come on. Joseph Smith, let me give you the full title from darkness on

to light. Joseph Smith translation and publication of the book of Mormon published by religious study center at BYU and desert book in 2015. The author of dozens of academic articles as well. Is that enough, Garrett? Honestly, this not I'm only like I don't think we need to. I'm a third of the way through. Yeah, this is great I don't I this was a I didn't send this one over in particular Yeah, I got this and and that's you know, I just grabbed it from the

Religious education website, but yeah, but we're just glad to have you welcome and thanks for coming back and coming in spite of us Thanks for coming back again. Well, I'm glad to be here. Happy to spend some time with you guys. You knew what we were when you picked us up. Yeah, yeah, that's an eight story thing. I'm carrying you down the mountain now. I would encourage everyone who hasn't heard our first episode with Garrett, Dr. Dirk Motto, go back. It's episode four. Definitely want to go back. He tells some just wonderful personal stories about his degree. He also tells us about the stolen 116 pages.

Just really, and his testimony there is just fantastic. So if you haven't heard that one, please, after you listen to this one, or right now, go back, listen to that one first. Okay, I have a couple of comments before we get started, John, if that's okay. Dr. Dirtmont, Garrett, and I, where we shared a hallway for a couple of years at BYU,

and I heard some really fun stories, and I thought, our listeners deserve to hear at least one of these stories. So the one I'm thinking of Garrett, I'm gonna ask you about two today, but the one I'm thinking about is one, I just don't know how to work in to our interview. So I'm just gonna ask you about it.

And that is, now I don't wanna build it up too much because people might be like, well, that wasn't a great story. But for me personally, I have thought about that story and people that I've told the story to, I could probably tell it. The people I've told the story to love it. All right, Garrett, we want to take up all the time we can in this week's lesson having your expertise here.

We're studying sections 60 through 62 of the doctorate and covenants. All three of these are received in the first half of August of 1831. So let's back up a little bit. Let's remind everyone what brought Joseph Smith and some of the members of the church to Missouri and what they did there and now that it sounds like they're gonna head back soon. Yeah, well the the culmination of what the early believers all wanted was to know where the city of Zion was going to be built. And there's just, it's interesting. If I were to have a congregation of Latter-day Saints today, right down what you think, the most important doctrines of the church are. If you made the list long enough, somewhere between having a year's supply of food storage and above understanding

how to use ham radios, would be the idea of a city of Zion. It's so incredibly foreign, our concept of Zion, to what these early believers. I mean, I'm obviously being a little bit ingest there, but my point is, most of us are driven today in our testimonies by things like Joseph's misvision, the book of Mormon, other doctrines that have been revealed. Many, many early converts to the church are converted specifically because of the idea of a city of Zion. The idea that there would be the city of God, a place where everyone was equal, a place where there was nothing but Christianity and love in it. So they're driven by that. And so they're driven so much by it that your previous podcast have covered the fact that you actually will have,

you have the ability for people to be deceived by false revelation surrounding Zion like with Hiram Page, because so many believers are so desperate to have that promise blessing. Well, finally, in the summer of 1831, Joseph Smith receives the revelation that they're all to go to Missouri, and that when they got there, God would show them the place where this city of Zion is to be built. show them the place where the city of Zion's to be built. This is a pretty big deal. And Missouri is 1,000 miles away,

at least that part of Missouri. It's 1,000 miles away from where the Kirtland area is. I heard someone, I'm gonna stop you real quick, Garrett. I heard someone say once, oh, how convenient that Joseph Smith said the city of Zion is in Missouri, so close to Ohio. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah.

Well, I mean, there's gonna be can, technically, you know, yeah, if you were in, if you were in Eastern Missouri and in Western Ohio, then I guess it would only be like 500 miles away from him. The problem is they're going from Eastern Ohio to Western Missouri. And before there were, you know, as many interstates, I mean, obviously, you know, we haven't had Harry Truman as president yet. And so the reality is it is not an easy journey. It's incredibly

far. It's incredibly difficult. It takes usually, if you're going fast, three weeks, four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, depending on the time of year, the weather, it is a massive. And actually, the space creates a, it'll create an ongoing problem for the church, because as the church begins to grow in Missouri, the members there are a thousand miles away from the headquarters of the church. And there's no telephones and there's not even any telegraphs. And so they are at best two months away from getting any answer from church headquarters if you were to call it that.

So you're in Missouri and there's a question that comes up, oh, what do you think we should do about this? Well, we better ask Joseph. I write a letter. You know, I send it. I'm just going to say it later. Yeah, it takes a month to get to Ohio. And if Joseph opens it and the, he's first of all, he's there.

He's not off preaching somewhere. He's there when the letter comes. And the moment he gets it, he opens it, reads it, you know, hurriedly jumps into a desk and writes a reply back and then sends it on the next, you know, passing horse, then if that happens, you're two months away from that. So imagine you're like, you know,

Joseph, we really got to find out if, you know, it's April now, we got to find out if by May, we're going to buy this like, you know, Joseph, we really got to find out if, you know, it's April now, we got to find out if by May, we're going to buy this land, you know, Joseph and you know, we've been working yesterday. Yeah, I guess I hope you did. I don't know what to tell you. I mean, I mean, those exchanges don't happen like that. Again, I'm being a little facetious, but the reality is a communications breakdown is going to be an ongoing problem as the church continues to have two locales.

The headquarters of the church in the Kirtland area where Joseph is. And now the eventual headquarters, not only of the church, but where the new Jerusalem and the city of Zionist to be built there in Jackson County. And as more and more members move that the tensions created by that are going to become a lot. But for our purposes, there was so much anticipation surrounding the city of Zion that when they arrive and you cover this in in in in previous podcast, Joseph is going to receive a revelation of where the temple is to be built there in the city of Zion. The the problem for many of these people that have just you know they've been

been walking for four or five weeks to get down here with the idea that, you know, when we get to that place, I imagine it's going to be the most beautiful place that's ever been and it's, you know, a dirty Western Missouri gambling town with a bunch of horse thieves and liars in it. I mean, it is not no part of it suggests that, oh yes, this is clearly going to be Zion. I mean, it is, it's a real disappointment for some of the people who took the journey. And there's not a lot of prospects for preaching to the people that are there. I mean, there are some people there, not very many people have listened, that the intention of going to this part of Missouri in the first place for all over Calgary and those who went on the mission to preach to the Native Americans

was to go into what was, you know, what's today, Kansas, but was Indian territory then and preach to the Native Americans. But those American Indian tribes, while apparently quite receptive to those Latter-day Saints that were preaching, they, the missionaries were almost immediately driven out by the federal government. It's actually the first time that the federal government is going to take a stance that is essentially an anti-Morman stance. The federal government will say, well, you can't preach to the American Indians without a, without a permit. Okay, well, can I get a permit? No. Oh, well, then that. So it makes it, you know, well, you can't preach from it out of

permit. And also you can't get a permit. And so that they've really been stymied in their efforts to try to, to try to do that. And so there's, you know, there's, there's some angst, obviously, these people have been gone from their families for a while. There are those who are moving to Missouri who are going to be a part of Missouri, but there's this idea that they need to return. And so the revelations that we're covering today all occur in the context of people beginning to return back to Ohio, how they're going to return back to Ohio. Some dealing with some of the fallout of the disappointment that occurred when God declared that the place that the new Jerusalem was going to be built was a place that in many of these missionaries estimation was the least likely spot for sign.

Beautiful place, not beautiful surroundings. Well, I mean, circumstances. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, they didn't have air conditioning. So I mean, they're there in the summer. It's a mystery. If you've ever been in Kansas City in late July, without air conditioning of any kind, I mean, I could see the reason why you're like, you know, New York's climate seems a lot better. Are you sure? Maybe we could check on the revelation again. And, you know, it doesn't seem right. I heard Partridge writes to his wife like, yeah, I don't know what happened, but wow. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, John, you want to go to, uh, oh, sure. I, I, we're on question four then. Yeah. I, I served my mission in the Philippines,

and I thought that I had experienced the max of heat and humidity. And I on a church history tour was at Adam on Diamond one time and I thought, oh, this is the max of heat and humidity. And do we have to grab our stuff and come here one day? Because yeah, it was warm. And like you said, they didn't, huh, boy. So let's jump into section 60 and look at some of the content. What are the some of the things that we ought to see here for sure, Garrett? Well, I think the background of section 60 is this, you know, the question that is, you know, how are we to return or are we to return back to to Ohio? I think John Whitmer, when he writes the earliest heading we have to this revelation, he just calls it directions to some elders to return to their own land is the background that they have for it.

The reality is all these men have been called by revelation to go to Missouri and told how they were to go to Missouri and told, you know, how to preach along the way. And in companionships, right? Yeah. In companionships and that they're to preach to people along the way and that they, that there was all kinds of things they were supposed to do as they went. And DNC 60 is essentially the, it is the, the book end to that. It is the, okay. You didn't do it. Now you're to go back. And this is how you're to go

back. And so that's what you, you initially get out of Dr. Concon section 60 is how, how directed at a, you know, almost, you know, a micro management level, the, this first trip to Missouri is God called through revelation, not just, you know, Joseph saying, Hey, would you like to go to Missouri? God calls through revelation, everyone who goes to Missouri. And then he's going to again, by revelation, return those elders back that are that are going to go back. And some are going to stay. Colesville Saints, Debbie Phelps. Yeah. Most of them are not all there yet, right? If they're coming in a larger group,

it's going to take them some time to get there. In fact, some of the elders who were called initially to go and be a part of this conference in Missouri, they're not there yet. And the reason why they're not there is because they took seriously the commandment that God had given that they were to preach all along the way. And there were some who, you know, well,

it's a month-long journey to the Western Missouri to begin with, I don't know that I need to spend a ton of time in Western Ohio preaching to people. And so that's actually gonna come out in some of these revelations. The Lord is gonna chastise people for the fact that, some of you didn't really make the effort that I wanted you to make

in trying to preach the gospel on your way down here. Instead, you got down here quick and you hid your talents under the bushel and you, you, you, you, you're candle under it, but you're, you, you hid your talents. And you, you, uh, uh, mixed your parables there. That was, yeah, I did. I mixed my parables. That's what happens when you have, uh, not a, not a very good scholar on, but the, uh, reality is they, at least some of them didn't meet the approbation of God in the sense of how he expected them to preach.

So there are still people coming. For instance, Hiram Smith is not there for the dedication of the land of Zion. He's still coming because he was actually taking his time on his way down, preaching the way that he thought they were supposed to. So yeah, there are most people that are going to be permanent residents of Missouri. Well, I think we all know there are no Mormons that end up being permanent residents during this time. The ones who plan to stay there and tell the millennium only to be driven out by mob violence,

they, most of them are going to be arriving later. This initial missionary group is coming with primarily just the men who are going down there. A few of them are going to stay. Most of them are going to go back and then the larger groups of actual migrating Latter-day Saints them are going to go back and then the larger groups of actual migrating Latter-day Saints families, they're going to be coming later in the year. Okay. All right, let's go into section 60, Garrett. What do you see here? I think part of what we talked about there and some of the initial verses,

right, God says that he's not well pleased, right, for those people that that that would not open their mouth., for those people that that that would not open their mouth. Why? Because they had a fear of man. And Latter day, Latter day saints are, well, they're not even Latter day saints yet, right? Members of the Church of Christ who believe in the Book of Mormon, they are, these people are not well received primarily in most places that they go. So you could see how for some of these people, it was a very difficult prospect. And you know, you're on this really long journey that is arduous, that's in the middle of the summer, that requires a great deal of physical

effort. You start preaching to a few people, they tell you very unkindly to move along. You can see how quickly, after the first couple hundred miles, that you might say, you know what, even if I go try to talk to those people, they're not gonna listen to me. So if they're not gonna listen to me, even if I go try to talk to them, I'm not gonna spend any more of my effort to do that.

And probably there's a lot of people who've served missions in more modern times who've had similar thoughts, right? I mean, I would to Wisconsin on my mission. There were very few people who ever listened to us at all. And certainly a thought would arise all the time, like, look, whether I spend the next two hours knocking on these doors or not, the results actually going to be the same. Yeah, only my hand will hurt more. I mean, but there's not enough. So you, you, you, you, you reality is that you can see how continual rejection can, can help fuel that kind of apathy towards preaching. I remember as a missionary, I was like, oh, I just kind of avoid this

confrontation, right? Avoid this awkward moment. And to me, that's fear of man, right? I just, I think nowadays I'd probably be a little more bold in my 40s than I was when I was 19. But yeah, I can see that being fear of man, not necessarily, I'm scared they're going to hurt me, but just scared of the interaction. Fearing the awkwardness. I mean, I think human nature is such that we are social animals and that we want to be comfortable socially and we want to be liked.

And when you're talking about religion today to somebody, And when you're talking about religion today to somebody, right? I mean, you know, if you want to make someone feel uncomfortable, you know, you're like, I'd like to talk to you about God for a minute. Okay. It's dial it back. I mean, I mean, imagine in the 19th century when people, you know, religion is much more interwoven into their society and their culture, but they also feel so much more passionately about it. And if you happen to be departing from what the accepted Protestant narrative is,

which of course Latter-day Saints are, I mean, it is a fundamental absolute of Protestantism in the 19th century in America, the Bible is the only revealed will of God. And you have these, you know, Latter-day Saints saying, well, let me tell you about the Book of Mormon. I mean, so they're opening line is essentially going against 300 plus years of absolute Protestant bedrock theology that there could be any truth. what a one an entire book of it, outside of the Bible is just, it's a blasphemy to them. And so my guess is rather than just disinterested, you know, stares, many of the people reacted to them with a kind of, well, you're a blasphemer. If you're trying to tell me that there's truth outside of the Bible,

well, then you're a liar, you've been deceived, you're a blasphemer. If you're trying to tell me that there's truth outside of the Bible, then, well, then you're a liar. You've been deceived. You're a blasphemer. I can imagine it. We have accounts of missionary efforts that didn't work as well from other times here in this era. So. And I think, too, we're talking about the fear of man, but this is, like you said,

this is the frontier, too. It's not like there's a cop around every corner to help if things, I mean, I don't know if they were ever physically assaulted or anything, but perhaps threatened. What do you think? Get off my way. Yeah, we don't have record of that in this early period. I mean, although the federal Indian agents

in the Indian territories did threaten to take all the missionaries to jail in four leather worth if they didn't get out. I mean, so they are getting that. I don't know if they, I mean, if they, there are any specific threats, but I think more it's, it's a matter of, you know, no one's listening, but it is a very rough place. I mean, I think it's one of the nights who explains that, you know, the only way that you could tell the difference between the Sabbath day or not in the area was that the, you know, the saloons and gambling houses were more filled on Sundays than the other

days of the week. So, I mean, it is, it is certainly a, it is, it is a rough place to be a religionist. It certainly probably does not help that these are primarily almost exclusively northerners coming into what is a hotly contested southern state. I'm not saying they're preaching abolitionism all the way, but the reality is they lived in very different worlds. And so they would have been mistrusted as outsiders, even if they were, you know, as Episcopal was the day as long and in an accepted religion, they would have been a great deal of mistrust. They're

coming in, they're preaching a new religion. I don't know who they are. And then you add to it this kind of cultural divide between people from New England and Ohio and people from especially contested slave states like Missouri. I mean, I'm sure there were many difficult encounters. The saints there. Did they know that Joseph had been pulled out of the John Johnson farm in the middle of the night? Did they know that Sydney Rigen had been trying to buy this? So they don't know that yet because this is happening before that. What will start to happen in late 1832 in part as a result of as a booths of apostasy that we'll talk about here in a minute.

What starts to happen is what I call a rising tide of anti-mormonism, that it really hits Ohio and Missouri at about the same time. And it becomes violent first in Ohio with the assaults on Sydney, Rigden, and Joseph and the loss of Joseph's child as a result. I mean, in 1832, but then it becomes widespread violence in Missouri in early 1833. So here at this early stage, in early 1831, I think for the most part, the reason why there's not as much violence is, is, there's very little threat, right? I mean, the reality is, if I don't know what town's everybody lives in, but if like, you know, six people showed up from some weird, you know, Protestant sect in your town and started preaching and they started saying things like, we're gonna own this town. Where this is God gave this to us and they have obviously a high pitch voice like that.

You're primary result, your primary reaction would not be, well, I guess we've got to go to our infotherum. Your primary reaction would be, they're crazy. Yeah, those clowns are crazy, but whatever. There's so few of them. Exactly. Generally, what starts to cause physical problems for the Latter-day Saints is that as they gather, the very fact that their gathering presents political,

It presents political, economic, religious, and societal social problems that just don't, those problems don't really exist when there's not a large group, right? So that happened in Colesville, in New York, right? In Fayette, there aren't any mobs because nobody lives there, right? Except essentially for the Whitmer's extended family. No one lives there today. So in, but in Colesville, when you got to the point that a significant portion of the, of the town, I mean, nothing near a majority, but I don't know what the percent is. And any number I throw out, Larry Porter could later listen to, but that's not even close.

But even if it started to approach 15 to 20%, that is a big deal. That's transforming what your town is. Yeah. It's transforming your relationships in the town. It could possibly transform economies, the local politics. So when it's just, you know, a dozen, two dozen people that are there and then leaving, I mean, the reality is in order for people to react violently usually, they have to feel like that there's something that is long term that they are fighting against.

Yeah. I mean, I'm sure initially the people that are there are basically saying, well, this is great actually because, you know, these newcomers are coming here and buying our stuff and we're of course charging them outrageous prices because they're just showing up with nothing but desperately want to live here. I mean, you know, I'm sure we could talk to any real estate agent and they would tell you that their favorite client is the one who absolutely has to live in this town no matter what and has to be on this this town no matter what and

has to be on this street no matter what. Okay. Okay. We can do that. If you're going to pay me premium, we can we can do that. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, and that's essentially what the Latter-day Saints are doing, right? They're moving to this.

Yeah, we got to be here. They're moving to this area that is, I mean, I mean, literally no offense to any Latter-day Saints in, you know, in Kansas City today. But at the time, this is essentially the most worthless land in the United States. It says far west, as you can possibly get, it has such poor connections to the remainder of not only the state of Missouri where almost all of the settlement is in the St. Louis area, right? It has, it is so disconnected from the rest of the country that I'm not saying the land isn't fertile.

The land's beautiful. The land is fertile land, but it doesn't matter how fertile your corn crop is. If it takes you three months to get it to a market somewhere, right? I mean, the reality is it is the cheapest land that exists. And so when you have a group of people moving in who desperately have to live in a specific part of this land that's relatively inexpensive, I think at first it's actually seen kind of as a boon. I can sell my land for twice what it's worth here, right?

But as more and more people come, right? And look, that's the reality of migrating people's all the time, is that often they're seen as an opportunity at first, and then as more and more come, then they're seen as a threat. And that, that plays out, I think, for the Latter-day Saints in Missouri. What's funny is that, you know, there are a couple of times when you're reading Joseph Smith's writing that you wonder, I mean, it seems to come across that he,

look, he's not educated, right? So he's trying to spell things phonetically a lot of the time. And one of the words that he misspe spells multiple times the same way is the word church, right? He miss spells the word church with instead of CHURCH, he spells it with an I. And I think it's because Joseph's from New England. I mean, like, I know that every church movie we see him and he's got this wonderful Utah accent. He's like, I mean, he always like, we've got to get the brother and out to you know, but the reality is, you know, the guy's born in Vermont. He's raised in New Hampshire. He's not from Utah, you know, and so it makes you wonder if the reason why he's misspelling that is if the reason why he pronounces

it is because it's not the church. It's the church, you know, being, you know, and going to the chitch. And, and, and the other name that he miss spells is actually Edward Partridge's name. He leaves the R out of it because it's not part of the tritch. It's patridge. Right? And so it's a head with, you know, me and Edward Patridge, you know, going to go to the chitch. And maybe catch a socks game after I don't know, I don't Petridge, you know, gonna go to the church. Maybe catch a socks game after. I don't know what his accent sounded like. So I, again, I don't wanna make anyone feel uncomfortable if you don't wanna think of Joseph talking about the first vision with a kind of New England accent.

You don't have to. But I'll tell you what, the New England science should probably like actually Joseph sounded a lot more like us than you people out in Utah. In section 60. So one of the other things I think to take away from it is not only have this chastisement, they're directly commanded by God to how they're supposed to go home, right? They're supposed to either make or purchase a craft, which, you know,

they're going to try to take the river down. Now where Jackson County sits, where they're at, is on close to anyway, the Missouri River. And the idea, of course, is you know, you couldn't do it this way going there unless you were on a steamship and there's really not a lot of steamship travel up that far, that early. But you can go with the river down the river, right? So, so you can get in a canoe or you know, get on a flat boat or something and you can float with the river down the river, right? So you can get in a canoe or get on a flat boat or something and you can float down the river. You don't have to walk as much and you're going to be and that'll take you all the way in to St. Louis. Now from there, you're going to have to probably go overland because the Ohio River, you'd

be going up river on the Ohio and you'd be going up river on the Mississippi whichever way you decided to go. But it's verse five and six that tell them that they need to get, essentially, get some boats and take their journey speedily to St. Louis. And then they're going to go from there, Joseph's told that they're going to go through Cincinnati on the way back, which makes sense. They are told that they are supposed to, again, preach on the way back. The reason why I point that out is they're specifically commanded to get some water craft in order to take their way back. And that matters because of the sections that follow,

at least one of them is directly resultant of the fact that they follow this commandment. They're commanded to take this water route. And the fact that they actually listen is going to lead to some issues. I don't want you to spoiler alert. I don't want to let every, you know, immediately. But I think verse 14 is also pretty good.

After that, I was come up into the land's eye and has proclaimed my word, thou shalt speedily return proclaiming my word among the congregations of the wicked, not in haste, neither with wrath nor with strife. So this idea that again, don't try to just make the journey also not with contention. I mean, that idea with not with wrath, not with strife, that suggests that maybe there might have been some on the way and to try to make it a more peaceful exchange. But my dad used to quote to me, verse

13, thou shalt not idle away thy time. He loved that one. Yeah, dad's love most scriptures that have the word idle in it. And that was before there was, you know, the internet. So I can only imagine now that, right, that's get moving. Get working. I remember. Yeah. I think I like the context though, because as Garrett alluded to a minute ago, neither felt that buried italiant. It was kind of the idle part was not doing the, not preaching the gospel by the way. That's, isn't that right? Yeah.

And I think, and even when they got there, I mean, I think the missionaries that were already there had in some respects, you know, kind of stopped trying. I mean, you know, I don't know how many future missionaries are going to listen to this or the reality is reality is just about every mission you go on, you will find yourself feeling like your efforts don't really matter. They don't bear fruit. And that becomes a really difficult thing. I mean, you know, that it's hard as a human to have negative result, negative result, negative result, again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and to still have faith that your next result

might be different. I know we all hear of the missionary stories of, you know, what there I was, you know, it was 400 degrees below zero. My companion wanted to go home, but I said, wait, there was one more house at the far end of that street. And you know, and then that person's baptized and they, you know, they become an apostolate or whatever. Those are those are the missionary stories that we share with each other all the time. And you know, because they're miraculous experiences. But we sometimes miss like the whole other part of that.

And that is, yeah, remember I started the story with, we'd been out tracking for 15 days, 15 hours a day, and no one had docked to us at all. That's gonna have to happen. About that, right? Yeah, the reality is, I think Satan tries to convince us that our past failures are in some way indicative or predictive of our future results and tries to wear us down. And, you know, if you're going to serve a mission, I mean, the reality is you actually have no idea

what person is going to listen next. And yeah, you might have been cursed off the doorstep from the last person. And this person is embraces the truth of God. Searching for Israel, right? It will speak into them. I wonder if verse 15 is I honestly don't know if Parley Pratt is around when this revelation is given, but it says, shake off the dust of thy feet against those who receive the not, not in their presence. Not in their presence, unless I'll show up for both them, because we just talked about God be a reference to Dnc49. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there are makers shaking the coat tails right in front of them. And everybody who looks at parley, you know,

Garrett sections 61 and 62 are not received in Jackson County now, but on the river. Yeah, this is are these the only two sections received on the Missouri river. I think yeah, at least for for right now for for during this time period, these are the ones that are received here. I mean, they, and it's because it's for their journey back. So with section 61, they went and got the craft that they were told to get, right? Action six back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Second section 60. And in fact, Ezra Booth will bitterly complain about the fact that he had to go find canoes, you know, but there, so the group is traveling back in these canoes because they've been told to by revelation. And there, there's some simmering hostility that's going on.

I mean, you know, it's, it's interesting like if you've ever been on a trip with a group of friends, right? You know, the first, you can make three days on a, on a trip with a group of friends and things are fine, right? You get, you get 12 or 13 days in and, you know, you don't care how good that guy's Missouri accent is, you've got a problem. Not funny. Yeah. And, you know, you know, it's, you know, Ben Woodwright said, you've got a problem. Not funny. Yeah.

And, you know, it's, you know, Ben Runfranglund, right? He said, you know, fish and house guests in after three days. I mean, the reality is these guys have been on this arduous trek together to get down there. And in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in a month plus journey to get there. And they, there are some tensions that really start to boil over, in part because of the disappointment that, you know, I think some people really thought that, you know, the city of Enoch is going to come down when they got there that they'd see the streets

paid with gold. And this would be, it'd be like a garden of Eden spot. And, oh, and then this is where the, you know, the city would be built. And that wasn't the. He's just got all in a month. Exactly. Well, of course, because where God's chosen elders here, we're going to be baptizing. I mean, they're not going to have, they're not going to be water enough in the Missouri River to baptize the people that were baptizing. And none of that happened. So, so in many ways, you have this physical exhaustion combined with this, you know, the familiarity that being with each other so much. And then the temporal really disappointment of that's not what I thought is on what's going to be.

And now look, not everyone complains about the location of Zion, but you know, as you learn one of your previous episodes, I mean, you know, it's bad enough that Edward Partridge and Sydney Rigden get into a massive fight over this. And it's a fight that they have, it will actually take a long time before they ever seem to be reconciled. So you already have some bad feelings among the group that didn't quite. Joseph Smith was involved in that argument as well. Yes, because because partridge is talked about that. Yeah.

Yes, yeah, because partridge is, look, partridge is a businessman. He's he's got an eye for real estate. And when Joseph says this is the place where the temple is going to be built, I mean, for partridge, it's kind of like, well, I can see like a thousand other places that are better than this. Why is it here? You know, do you want to want to check again, you know, you know, not to be tried about it, but yeah, I think that, you know, Partridge is just sacrificed

unbelievably in a very short amount of time in order to be a part of the movement. And of time in order to be a part of the movement. And it really seemed like he felt like Joseph was was was wrong. And that of course, you know, Sidney Rigdon cries to jump to Joseph's defense. And, and you know, you know, one thing that no one's ever said about Sidney Rigdon was, you know, he had such a mild personality that, you know, you know, you didn't really. So, I mean, that the problem is that when when Sidney Rigdon

gets involved, you're going to know about it. I mean, the guy is going when Sidney Reagan gets involved, you're going to know about it. I mean, the guy is going to come at you and he's going to come at you hard. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and right? And so all of us have been in a situation where we've had a fairly sharp disagreement with someone that we otherwise really care about. Even when you both slap each other's backs and say, you're sorry, those words, they linger. There's some lingering sting from that. Well, maybe he was, you know, I mean, you know, every time Hank and I get in an argument, he's like, you're just a hackist or you aren't even good at all. And I'm like, you know, I mean, you know, every time Hank and I get in an argument, he's like, you're just a hackist or you aren't even good at all. And I'm like, you know, he says he's sorry, but I really really means it. Yeah, I think I feel like Hank means it.

But anyway, so I think there's that. There's some lingering things. And then there's apparently, we don't know the nature of it. But as they start going down the river, there's really some grumbling going on among the group. To the point where Oliver Cowdry starts to try to chastise people that, hey, you need to straighten up and fly right. And so there's just some bad feelings going on. And in the midst of all of that, you know, this was not the pleasure crews down the

Nile that they thought this was going to be. The Missouri River today has been, it's been dredged and there's been dams built in it. And it is a navigable waterway. In 1831, it is a treacherous, treacherous river. And even after they start trying to make improvements on it, it is a regular thing that there are massive catastrophes that occur on the river.

I mean, there are shifting and uneven sandbars. It is all the time that things can get submerged into the water. And in this case, that's exactly what happens with the group. There's a soil or a sire that is essentially a tree that is just under the water, but it's a fallen tree. So trees on the back and then falls into the water. The bottom is now stuck into the water. The other parts now sticking up and it's going to present this huge snag opportunity for any boat because the water is going over it, but it can't draft all the way over it. So if you're in the canoe and you hit it, well, you're going to flip, right? Where you're going to, something's going to happen.

They run into one of these at Mcilwain's Bend, which is a place essentially lost to history because since they've redone the river and improved it. And it nearly capsizes Joseph and Sydney's canoe. These guys, it's not like they've been taking swimming lessons at the YMCA. I mean, not everyone knows how to swim in the 19th century. I mean, it is not everyone who does. And so it is a terrifying experience. They all make their way to the bank, but not only have they been carping at one another, not only are they all exhausted from this journey. Now they, they feel like their lives were, were just about threatened.

And again, if you're looking for a way to criticize, why were we in that boat in the first place? Well, because Joseph received a revelation telling us to be in that boat. So the context of DNC 61 is this revelation that's received on the bank of the Missouri River after they've had this kind of, I don't wanna call it a near death experience,

but they were certainly terrified with what had happened in their water journey. A water journey that they think that they were only on because God gave them a revelation telling them that they should do it. Something that God talks about in the Lord talks about in TNC 61, he first starts with verse two in saying that,

whose sins are now forgiven you, for either the Lord forgives sins, and I'm merciful one of those who confess their sins with humble hearts. Verily I say to you that it's not needful for this whole company in my know there's be moving swiftly upon the waters, whilst the inhabitants on either side are perishing

in unbelief. So it was always kind of odd, right, that God kept telling them they needed to take their time and preach to people along the way, but at the same time told them to take this water route to the St. Louis. Well, I mean, I don't know if you're going to shout to people as you go down the river,

you're like, hey, we're Mormons. I mean, you gotta be. Yeah, how quickly can you teach a first discussion? You know, I mean, you know, if you're on someone's door and they're like, I'll give you one minute. You're like, oh, Joseph Smith, you know, we most people, they're just bringing me even the way they would call them by different names.

We've even got a little bit of, you know, you're going to smash the can, you're trying to get it out. And clearly, there's not a whole lot of opportunities to preach the gospel while you're in a canoe going down the river. And so that kind of seemed like maybe a contradiction. And then the Lord explains that here, in verse four, he says, I suffered it that you might bear record. Behold, there are many dangers upon the waters and more especially hereafter. So what these guys are going to do when they go back to Kirland is they're going to say, listen, you just take the

overland journey, okay, that that that you don't want to try to take the the river journey. I know it looks inviting, but it is a nightmare that is so dangerous, it's not worth it. And so apparently God allowed them to have this experience so that they would be able to know firsthand how treacherous the river route actually is so that other people would not take that route. So it's an interesting concept of where God apparently put them in a position where they would have a very negative experience so that they could with experience testify to other people about what it is they should do. You get that out of DNC 61. Very interesting. A lot of people are

going to be going back and forth between Kurt Linden, Missouri and they might be like, oh, I'll I'll take the river. Now, and look eventually in Navu, obviously, the Latter-day Saints are going to use river traffic all the time. Right? I mean, they're even going to have the mate of Iowa. I mean, they're going to utilize it. But frankly, the Missouri River up to Kansas City at that time is just not as navigable as the Mississippi River, which was also filled with all kinds of... I mean, if you read 19th century newspapers, you will read catastrophe after catastrophe that occurs on the river. The reality is, they are not easily navigable,

but they're so tempting to navigate because it's so much easier and so much, and you can carry so much more freight if you can navigate them. But, you know, there's that danger. And so that really becomes the practice to try to avoid the water route to to Zion after 61. I mean, they aren't going to have too many years to be able to worry about that because within, you know, less than two years after that, they're going to be driven out by mob violence. That is I had just never I'm so glad you talked about this because you know we've we've all been to Navu got to the end of that and we see the Mississippi and you know there's that big kea cuck is it a you know damn there damn there that slows the flow evens it out whatever I just had not thought of this

and I was gonna ask you, compared the Missouri to the Mississippi as far as width and stuff, I'm not even sure. Boy, I don't even know at the time, right? So the reality is the way those rivers look today to us, especially near those urban centers, is just nothing like they looked like back then. We have flood control, levies all along them. So what do we know?

We know from the time period that this particular stretch of the Missouri River from Kansas City to about, you know, a third of the way to St. Louis was particularly treacherous that people got capsized, that there were problems, that there were boating accidents that occurred there all the time. And so, we don't really know what it would have looked like, but there's at least a pretty regular record of shipping disasters along a Missouri there. And I like the principle here.

I like the principle here of you. I put you in a difficult situation. Now we're going to get out of it. But now you can tell other people, right? Don't do that. Don't go that way. I like that idea. I think the Lord sometimes uses that in our lives. We can learn

big time lessons and he lets us learn them and then he's going to say, pass that along. I've seen it in other places too where God knows that there is no replacement for actually having the experience. I mean, I guess we can all say that about mortal life to begin with, but in the council of 50, there's an experience where the saints are trying, I mean, the members of the council of 50 are trying to write the new constitution for the location of the kingdom of God when they finally leave Navu. And imagine the pressure of, I'm writing the constitution for the kingdom of God when they finally leave Navu. And imagine the pressure of, you know, I'm writing the Constitution for the kingdom of God, right?

I mean, obviously, how am I going to get that right? And at one point, they simply are frustrated and they just asked Joseph, well, can't you just receive this by revelation? Because like anything, we rights can just, I mean, obviously it's going to throw it down anyway. Yeah, it's going to be wrong. So why don't you just do it?

And Joseph teaches him that actually, obviously, it's going to throw it out anyway. Yeah, it's going to be wrong. So why don't you just do it? And Joseph teaches him that actually, no, you need to create the very best thing you can create and expend all your efforts in this thing. And then I'll receive revelation. And the reason why he says there have always been some great big elders in this church who, who, you know, come along, you know, come along, who would criticize. Frankly, if Joseph received the Constitution by Revelation, some of the people who thought themselves to be a little bit more intelligent than Joseph

would have behind the scenes been like, well, that's not how I would have put it. I don't know, maybe if Joseph knew what I knew about it, then he probably would have changed it. And so instead, what Joseph says is that it's necessary for the others to exercise all their efforts in this thing. And then when they see that they cannot get the revelation and I can, they

will know from once wisdom flows. So if you've already expended all of your efforts to do it, then you can't, when Joseph receives it, go like, well, that's what I was going to say. Yeah. I mean, you can't because well, you had your chance to say it. And you didn't say it because the revelation is actually coming through the prophet. Yeah, I mean, you can't because well, you had your chance to say it. And you didn't say it because the revelation's actually coming through the profit. So, I mean, Dr. and Kevin in section one, where right a preface toss it. Yeah.

Well, and I think that's exactly, they tore it to shreds. They don't say that specifically in the council of 50 minutes. But I think that the men involved who asked Joseph to receive it, I think that's exactly what they have in their mind. I mean, because it's WWE Films, it's John Taylor, that they know that that was the case with the preface to the Book of Commandments, which became DNC one, that, you know, they tried

and Joseph eventually received the revelation. Well, let's just cut out the middleman here. Let's not try and just have Joseph receive the revelation. You know, like, no, it's good for you to try because then you see then you can see Yeah, there's just a question that For my I haven't done as much reading and studying it as you have Garrett But that maybe we overdo the idea of the destroyer riding upon the waters Was it specific to everything that

you have just taught us about the Missouri? Is there more than that? Do we overdo it? And didn't, did WWE felps have a, he has a vision where vision of it, right? Yeah, he's, he's the one who, who sees the destroyer riding upon the water. I mean, it's unclear exactly when he sees that. If he sees that while they're going through their crisis of nearly being drowned in the river, and that would make sense that that's when they see it. But it's actually, it's not a solely WWFelps vision. While he's the only one who sees it. There are other members of the group who say they hear it, that they can hear this interact. I'm not entirely sure what the destroyer say and sounds like, but whatever it is, it

was such that they all experience this. So you can look in the history of church volume, it will say that the other brethren heard the sound but didn't see the vision. So, I personally, and maybe I'm way off here, Garrett, you can correct me, but I think we've taken the idea that Satan controls the water. I remember hearing that as a missionary. Why can't missionary swim?

Satan controls the water. I'm like, why do we baptize people in water? Why do we have to stack them in the water? Right, well, I always we baptize people in water? Why do we have to sacrament with water? Right. Well, I always use it as an excuse. Why do I shower? Yeah. I think it controls the water.

Yeah. It's easy when you have a practice that's in place to then try to find scriptural reasons for that practice that exists. That's what the prophet wants us to do. Then that's what the prophet wants us to do, then that's what the prophet is going to tell us to do. And we have to be careful because as even though our, sometimes our looking beyond the mark, is spawned by fervency, right?

It's spawned by a desperate belief. Sometimes we get so enamored with what we think is going to happen that when that thing doesn't happen, it becomes a faith crisis. We see that with sign. That's certainly what happened with Ezra Booth. Ezra Booth joins the church because he sees Joseph Smith heal somebody. He's a Methodist minister, so he's certainly, he's educated, he knows the Bible. He is very skeptical of whatever it is that these moms are selling, right?

But he witnesses Joseph Smith heal someone's paralyzed arm. Well, that's a pretty big deal. And to him, that's it's essentially irrefutable. He buys into the idea of Zion. He buys into to the he member of the church. He's an elder. He's going down on this mission, but in his mind, he had built up that they would have ridiculous amounts of success preaching that everyone would believe this. And that essentially Zine was going to drop down out of heaven that when they got to the spot of the place, it was going to be the most beautiful place that ever existed. And it was a dirty frontier gambling town filled with houses of ill repute and saloons. I mean, it was, it was nothing that he expected. Now the thing is, Joseph had never said that.

Joseph had never said, hey, we're gonna go down to Missouri. We're gonna baptize like seriously thousands of people on the way, folks. So it's gonna be, but that's what he had come to believe. And so when his projected reality failed to match the actuality of circumstances, it caused a faith crisis for. It seems to not help that there was the bickering and difficulties among the elders. I think you thought, well, the big argument between elders of God should never have a problem with each other. I mean, clearly, right? Because Christ's apostles never argued about things. Obviously, they did, right? I mean, the reality of this false expectation

can really cause problems. And, you know, I think that's, well, it happens today. All the time. I had the expectation of church history and when I started reading and learning, it didn't meet my expectation. And no one ever, you know,

how did we create that expectation? Where did it come from? And, and, you know, sometimes things are, are mournest and sometimes they're, they're not. I mean, the reality is, sometimes people deliberately do try to deceive people to create their own following, you know, in order to build themselves up. I mean, to be, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to make themselves a light, to demonstrate, oh, look, I have this special knowledge. And I just think it's, it's, I know history, right? Well, I mean, someone listening to this, he's in other historians, like, not as well as I do, I'm sure, okay, not as well as you. But, but I mean, look, I, I study history. That's what, that's what my, my, you know, my training is in. But I'm not a prophet, right? I'm wearing a lavender shirt here for a reason.

I mean, I don't have any access to what God, how God interprets these revelations. I can place them in historical context. You know, they have this terrible accident where they nearly all drown. They don't receive the revelation right then. They actually, they kind of bicker and argue and they have this discussion through the night and really by the next morning, they've kind of come to terms with one another. And it's in the aftermath of that kind of spirit

of peace that's pervaded that this revelation's received, which is part of the reason why I think God's thing. Listen, your sins are forgiven you. You know, you, yes, you know, you were, you're mortal, but now you're, you're coming on back and, and you get that out of verse 37, where he says, you know, in as much as you've humbled yourself before me, the blessings of the Kingdom of yours, right? And, and probably verse 36 is also very uplifting to your listeners. Yeah. What I say and to one, I say and to all, be of good cheer little children from in your midst and I have not forsaken you. You know, the idea that your little children, which is exactly

what Jesus, you know, you become like a child in order to inherit the kingdom of God. become like a child in order to inherit the kingdom of God. I think that we feel an awful lot of times in life like God has forsaken us. And I think it's in part because there's a lie that is repeated sometimes unintentionally and sometimes very intentionally that we tell ourselves that if only we're doing everything that's right, that bad things aren't going to happen to us. And I know we talked about this a little bit, we talked about DNC3 and, you know, Joseph and Emma losing their first child. This is also happening in the aftermath of yet another catastrophe for Joseph and Emma, right, that they're going down there having lost their next set of children, their twins.

And I think it's really easy for believers who are sacrificing so much for God to start to wonder why it is there's still terrible bad things happen to them. And it is hard. I mean, in the past couple of months, I lost my brother. He died very unexpectedly, my youngest brother. And you left two little kids under the age of two at home and a wonderful loving life and

You know, there's a lot of horrible people in this world and You know, they're still rolling around right and and and when you're faced with catastrophes like that it I Think it's a natural thing for us to wonder, you know, God, things have been really, really bad. Why, why are they so bad? It's actually the question that has perplexed religionists in every religion from the dawn of religion. And that is, why is this world so terrible?

Why suffer? Yeah, why? Why is they're suffering? If there's a God who can stop suffering, then let's see it. And I think God in these revelations and further ones, you know, you saw this with the death of Paulie Knight, he had to remind them that this world has tribulation, but it's not about this world. We aren't living about this world. We're living for the next world what makes Christianity great,

what makes the message of Christianity great, is that while this world is terrible at times, they're suffering at times, there is going to be a time when there is no suffering. There's going to come a time when there is no suffering. There's going to come a time when there is no tears, where there is no ill treatment of others, where there is no bigotry in hatred. There's going to come a time when everything that you've lost is going to be restored to

you. And that's in this next life. And I think that that's part of what God is trying to remind them here. Look, you guys have had a rough go of it. I'm still with you. I haven't forsaken you. Life is just hard. Things are bad. That's how this mortal life is. this mortal life is and You know, I hope that anyone listening. I mean, I hope anyone who's suffering You know has some kind of bomb that's given them from God

That they they know that at some point They are going to be recompensed at some point God is through the the power of the Lord going to overcome their suffering and possibly not until the next life. But that's the only one that really matters because that's the one that lasts forever. That's the whole point of what Jesus taught. Again, from the book of Revelation, right? God shall wipe away the tears. I'll do away with suffering and pain. I love that verse 36. That's beautiful. You have good cheer, little children. I have not not taken you. You might think I have. I promise you, I am.

And in this world, you'll have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world. But there's that waiting period, President Benson called it, you know, the wicked thing they're getting away with something, or the righteous think, where's my blessings? But there's a waiting period, as was the case with Job and Joseph, President. And I think that having, um, that is, there's such a hopeful thing that as, as believers in God, we know there is a reason. There must be a reason, and as you just said, so beautifully, Garrett, a God of justice will, there will be, things will be restored to us. I think, if Joseph Smith, I got it right,

all of your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection by the vision of the Almighty. I have seen it, Joseph Smith said. I love that one. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and that's what I think is really what gives us hope. And, you know, at the same time, he tells them to be of good cheer. I mean, it can be easy in this world that's filled with horrors, um, to, you know, curl up into a ball and think about how awful things are and, you know, dwell upon how terrible they are. And yes, look forward for that blessed day of Zion or the

resurrection or something that will end this horror show. But that's not who Joseph was. All of our accounts of him and even the accounting gives him himself, right, that he had a all of our accounts of him. And even the account he gives of himself, right, that he had a native, cheery disposition, right? He suffered all kinds of absolutely unfair, horrible things that happened to him. And yet he greeted people with a smile. He loved other people that were around him.

And I hope that that's what we can at least try to do. That we can expect and understand that this world is filled with all kinds of horribly unfair suffering that God has promised through his prophets, will be made up to us in the next life. In some way that we don't understand, in a time we don't comprehend, all of our suffering will be made up to us in the next life. In some way that we don't understand, in a time we don't comprehend all of our suffering will be made up,

and that we can try to, as cheerfully as we can, go about this life and recognize the blessings that we do have. At my brother's funeral service, my older brother commented on the fact that my brother Bryant, when he was, when he was born, it was very bad delivery, premature, all kinds of complications. And he nearly died and was in the hospital for a month.

And my brother commented on it. He said, we can look at this as the most unfair thing that's ever happened. And the worst tragedy, or we can look at it that we almost didn't have Brian at all. We should have lost him when he was a two-week-old. And we got 37 years with him that we never should have had by a miracle he survived. And that doesn't fully assuage the loss. But it is at times like that that you are grateful, that you know, that you are going to see your loved ones again, and not because it's a myth or cleverly devised fables, but because Joseph Smith saw Jesus Christ. Jesus is resurrected and if Jesus is resurrected, then all of our losses are everyone we've lost is going to be resurrected.

So I thought of a book of Mormon verse. This is Alma the elder. He's being, he and his people have been enslaved by Amuland. And this is what it says, Mormon writes, and now it came to pass the Alma, the burdens which were laid upon Alma and his brethren were made light. The Lord did strengthen them that they could bear up their burdens with these and they did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of Lord. I'm okay if it just says, I'm totally fine if it says they did submit with patience to all the will of Lord.

Like I'm good there, but he says they did submit cheerfully and with patience. That reminds me of that verse 36, right? That's the of good cheer. Admit cheerfully. Yeah. Let's learn to jail too. Let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power at 123, right? Yeah. And Garrett's the epitome of cheerfulness.

And yet, here he's going through this difficulty. You, Garrett, when I heard about your brother, I mean, the same thing happened to me in December. My oldest brother passed away. And it just was, then my father, last month, and who I, I know you lost your brother. I mean, the same thing happened to me in December, my oldest brother, passed away. And it just was, then my father, last month, and who I know you lost your father just a couple of years ago. But here, you're, you're, you're the epitome of cheerfulness. You really are. And it's not a fake cheerfulness. You really, the gospel has made you a cheerful, happy person. And that's not to say you're never sad and you never grieve.

There's a place for those. But I think what Elder Scott once said, these difficult things that happened to us are laid on the background of a very happy life. Right, they're kind of laid as portions on a background of a very happy life. They're kind of laid as portions on a background of a very happy life. Yeah. It reminds me of that president Hinckley quoting the Lloyd Jones, the, the, oh, Jenkins Lloyd Jones, the news paper editors. Some touch don't drop. Yeah. Exactly.

Some beef is tough. It's the rail, the rail journey, right? That's, that's, you know, it's slow and shugging and problems all over, but it's occasionally, you know, blessed with beautiful vistas and thrilling bursts of speed. And, and that's the reality. I mean, we live in a, you know, mortal world, which I think, you know, as you get further on this, this podcast, you know, this revelation will be revealed to people. And that is that a lot of this, our pre mortal life is one of the most important aspects of dealing with the suffering we have in this life. Because all of us shows to come here,

knowing, not specifically what terrible things would happen to us, but we've been around, we saw what mortal life was, that it was filled with inequity, it was filled with disease, it was filled with sickness, it was filled with betrayal, it was filled with all kinds of horrible things. And knowing that, we still said, if that's the only way I can become like my Heavenly Father and my Heavenly Mother, the only way I can become like my Heavenly Father and my Heavenly Mother, then that's what I'm going to do. And so, I mean, we chose to be a part of that. And so, again, I'm not saying we chose our individual trials, but we weren't tricked

into this either, right? It wasn't like, it was a time share presentation. And we were showing a whole lot of, you know, actually that's pretty good. I'm pretty good. No, like, if you go down, you can't even believe it. I mean, there's this amazing stuff down there. I wait till you meet the mosquito boy, you'll love that. I mean, I think we knew full well what we were getting into when we came into it.

And we knew that it would be terrible. And yet we made that decision. And we just don't remember that we made the decision. And so, um, but you're right. I think it's a crucial piece of our doctrine. You signed up for this, right? It's, it's, it's really one of the only ways that we can sort out the reason why there is suffering. And we can sort it out in a way that others can't because if you believe God created everything out of nothing and created you out of nothing, you know, just whenever you were conceived and that you didn't exist before that, well fundamentally then, the suffering that you go through,

I mean, not only could God have mitigated it, I mean, there's a real question as to why God created you with an immortal spirit, if you knew you were just going to burn inated it, I mean, there's a real question as to why God created you with an immortal spirit, if you knew you were just gonna burn in hell forever. I mean, he already knows whether or not you're going to heaven, why did he give you an immortal spirit then, right? Like, oh, create you out of nothing for my own will and purpose.

And also, you're gonna burn in hell for eternity. You know, there you go. I mean, like not only is the being is this, what kind of being is that? So as that starts to be revealed more The idea of this pre-existent life in Joseph's revelations I think that helps an awful lot that this is not this is not our beginning This is this is actually two is in our end. Yeah, certainly is in our end

It's a elder Nile Maxwell I believe that was him that used the phrase about the knowledge of the pre-mortal existence as a wonderful flood of light That sound familiar and it is it changes everything we're in the middle of we're in the hard part and it's a very short part of this long existence and in this little testing President Packer you remember remember the play in the plan, he called it act one act two act three and we're in act two and he said it's characterized by test trials, temptations and even tragedies. Nowhere in act two, he said appears the line happily ever after. That's reserved

for act three. Please join us for part two of this podcast.