Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 60-62 : Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat Part II

Episode Date: May 30, 2021

Dr. Dirkmaat continues teaching that as the difficulties persist and that the Lord commands the Saints to “be of good cheer,” and reminds us that the Savior is “in [our] midst.” We discuss where much anti-LDS literature has been discredited. Dr. Dirkmaat shares dynamic and compelling personal stories that will endow listeners with power because of and through our difficulties. If you only listen to one podcast this week, THIS IS IT. Show notes: https://followhim.co/episodesYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Well, so, and maybe this is a good place to transition into talking about, you know, people who didn't take this advice very well. I mean, so one of those is Ezra Booth, right? So Ezra Booth has this miraculous conversion experience. Is so disappointed by Zion, even more frustrated by the way home, that really a month later, by September, his preaching license is being taken away from him, and he's essentially being cut off from the church.

But Ezra Booth does not go quietly into the night. Ezra Booth does not go quietly into the night. Ezra Booth begins writing, and I think in part, because he's trying to find a way to get back into his, I mean, he used to have a job. It was being a very prominent Methodist minister. Well, one way to lose your job as a Methodist minister is to become a Mormon elder. So that's not his life anymore.

And so he's writing back to Ira Eddie, who's one of the leaders of the Methodist groups there in Ohio. And he is riding to about this in a very, very, very critical way. Essentially saying, well, you know, look, I must have been deceived, right? Because, you know, this is not what we thought. And and writing scathing letters against Joseph Smith, against the church. And he really becomes the first concerted effort to put into writing anti-mormon attacks from a former member of the church. There had been other people who had certainly said negative things about Mormons. I mean, that, you know, Eber Howe was writing all kinds of negative stuff in his newspaper there in, in Payne'sville, just outside of Kirtland. And you'd already had Alexander

Campbell, you know, dedicate a great portion of, of his publication to, you know, what a fraud the Book of Mormon is and things like that. And that Joseph Smith just wrote it and, you know, what a fraud the Book of Mormon is and things like that. And that Joseph Smith just wrote it and, you know, other arguments. They aren't really that great. You know, he hadn't met Joseph. So he didn't realize, oh, I guess Joseph couldn't have written this. But here you have Ezra Booth, who was an elder and is able to use the fact that he had insider information to really stir up negativity against the church. He publishes a series of letters. They're published in the Ravenna Ohio star newspaper.

And you should, if you might hear about them at some point, the Joseph Smith papers will, we'll, we'll quote from them or talk about them multiple times. And his, as we're booth letters are just this real attack from the inside of this former apostate. And of course, we see that happen multiple times going forward. But this is really one of the first concerted efforts. And because it's an internal attack, it ends up being more devastating. He's able to fuel the fires of anti-mormonism in Ohio and antagonists of the church are able to say, look, here's someone who was one of their elders, he'll tell you how he was duped by them. In much the same way, antagonists of the church today who leave it will say the same thing. Well, I know I'm an insider. I know what it's like. And, you know, that's the true of anyone

who leaves any movement under negative circumstances. They claim that they have the real understanding. It's really a forerunner of what will become the most concerted effort of written anti-mormonism from the time. And that's ebber how that newspaper editor, not only is he going to gleefully repeat the things that Booth has to say, but in early 1833,, very big or important apostate, I mean, it seems kind of weird to say it that way, but a guy by the name of Dr. Philastus Hurlbott is going to be excommunicated from the church for adultery. And then he's going to, um, he's going to beg to get back into the church. He's going to, you know, tell Joseph, oh, I'm so sorry, Please, let me back in. And so Joseph will let him back into the church. And then he'll promptly

commit adultery again and get cut off again. Now this you said, you said doctor. Yeah. The doctor. Um, no. Uh, so, so his parents named him doctor. So this is a really good tip for those of you who are about to have children. If you want your son or daughter to sound, you know, like they really succeeded in life, go ahead and give them a name like doctor. I've always said this would be like naming my son MVP of the NBA finals, Dirk Mott. And then you've got to call him that. It's his name. It's his name, you know, I mean, and you've got to call him that. It's his name. It's his name, you know, I mean,

and, you know, and then however, he turns out in basketball. It reminds me of when I, people used to tell me about the King Follett. King Follett, that's what I was just thinking. I was like, what was he king of? Yeah, he was king of what? Or what about the, the frame or name,

governor Morris, like, governor Morris, that's his name. He's like, wow. So doctor, is his first name? Dr. Fulasse, the good doctor, the good doctor, who's anything but, in fact, he commits adultery again. Yeah, that's what you said. Yes, it seems to be a pattern. He is going to become very important to church history because he is going to claim that not only does he have all this insider information, right, because I was an elder in Mormonism, right? Not as many men were ordained to the office of elder then as are now. It wasn't universal, but it was still also a play upon the fact that in the Protestant community generally,

and Elder was a pretty big deal in a church, right? It was, especially in the Presbyterian church, I mean, it meant you were the leadership of the church. Many of the early converts were Presbyterians, right? And so, you've probably seen this in newspaper reports today, right? I mean, every so often, they'll be a Latter-day saint who commits a crime, and they will, you know, the news media will make a really big deal about it, you know, you know, so and so,

an elder in the Mormon church, which to every moment, yeah, exactly. High priesthood, oh, so he was like over 50 then. We have a democratized, you know, priesthood were essentially every worry male member receives it. But that's just not the case among Protestant churches. People don't have titles unless they have what they hear. Oh, I was an elder. It's a very helpful way. Oh, he was second only to Joseph. He has this insider claim, but then he's going to make a much more fantastical claim. He's going to claim that while he was on his mission in Western Pennsylvania,

he found the actual source of the Book of Mormon. And he is the originator of the claim that a former minister by the name of Solomon Spalding, had actually written the Book of Mormon, because part of the problem was again, Alexander Campbell dismissed the Book of Mormon out of hand because it wasn't the Bible and the Bible is all that mattered. And so he went through the Book of Mormon to try to find every place where it wasn't the same as the Bible, the Proopsy, this can't be true. It's not the Bible. And so Campbell very blindly like, oh, Joseph, in fact, he says, it is certainly the work of Joseph Smith himself as Satan is the father of lies. I mean, so so his, you know, he doesn't know Joseph,

and so his conclusion is, well, Joseph Smith obviously wrote this. There's a couple of problems, right? The initial reactions to the book of Mormon are, well, I'm just gonna dismiss it because this is obviously garbage. Or, well, I mean, Joseph Smith just sat down and pounded this out apparently. There's, you know, the problem is, if you a see lots of people reading the book

and they start to be convinced by it, it's one thing when it's crazy person you don't know, but what happens when it's your brother or your sister? What happens when it's your wife? The argument only idiots would believe this is from God is not as powerful an argument when you know the people that are converting, and now you need a better explanation. Second of all, if you know Joseph Smith,

if you know Joseph Smith, if you know Joseph Smith, it becomes harder to say, oh yeah, I'm sure he just wrote this all four years ago. And like, what, you know, just, you just put it all out there. I mean, it seems beyond his capabilities. Well, Solomon's solving solves both of those problems, right? Why is it that people are falsely, falsely, and putting in quote, air quotes because it's not falsely? I was about, they're saying falsely, being convinced of this book of Mormon. And why is it that, how is it that it's as well written as it is? Well, I know why, because a former minister, who of course knew the Bible backward and forward, he wrote a book that he intended to be what they call the time a romance.

That sounds as if it was gonna be something that would be on a lifetime movie channel at some point. It's a hallmark celebration. But that was the 19th century terminology for what we would today call a novel. A romance is something that's not, it's not, it's fiction. It's a fiction story. And that Solomon's balding wrote this fictional book.

And of course, because he's a minister and knows the Bible backward and 40 works all kinds of biblical stuff in there. And that's the reason why when people read the book of Mormon, they think that it sounds like scripture because this pastor wrote it and oh, by the way, why is it written in an ability that's the reason why when people read the book of Mormon, they think that it sounds like scripture because this pastor wrote it And oh by the way, why is it written in an ability that's well beyond Joseph? Well because it's this educated pastor who did it now, of course the best part of this claim is that Solomon's balding is dead So that makes it impossible to go ask Solomon's balding so his

Herald butz claims are asked all men's balding. So his hurl butts claims are apparently he begins making these public rounds and they are very, they are, you know, very dramatic. And in fact, very, he makes threats against Joseph Smith. Apparently at one point says that he's going to wash his hands in the blood of Joseph Smith. And it makes enough threats against him that even in a time when it's very difficult for Latter-day Saints to get any kind of justice in the courts, Herobot is actually charged with making threats against Joseph's family and is convicted of it and is essentially placed on probation and has to put up a bond saying that he'll keep the peace.

and is essentially placed on probation and has to put up a bond saying they'll keep the piece. And so, um, her old butt's going to be, he's going to be hired by Eber Howe, this newspaper editor. It's going to be hired by him to go back to New York and Pennsylvania to collect as many negative affidavits about Joseph Smith as he possibly can. He's going to collect these all in a book and he's going to publish them in this book called Mormonism Unveiled. Mormonism Unveiled is the first comprehensive anti-Mormon book, and I kind of transitioned with that from Ezra Booth, because Ezra Booth makes his claim in writing and in public, attacking the church from the inside, and it kind of transitions to a little while later, Flasas Hurlbut doing something like that with him and Eber Howe conspiring it kind of transitions to a little while later,

flashes her about doing something like that with him and Eber Howe conspiring to kind of do this on a much more grand scale. Does Eber use the does Eber use a booth in the book as well? Not directly. No, he's not having he's not he's not interviewing booth. No, but he uses it in his newspaper in his newspaper. They're certainly going to reference what's being published in the high star. So So her butt goes back to Palmyra. Who's there? Anybody likes Joseph? No, well, so it's funny, right? Like why did Joseph leave Palmyra?

Because there was so much persecution. He had to get out and then when you go to palmyra and ask people about Joseph surprisingly, people didn't like him. I mean, it's a really weird thing to go. I went to the place where we drove him out of town on a rail where we were planning to tar and feather him when he left town with Emma, you know, but luckily, you know, the doctor was able to intervene and stop them from doing that. but they, they, their plan was that the different doctor. Yeah, different. Yeah, different. Yeah, different doctor. Their plan Macintyre, I think is that doctor, but their plan is to physically assault Joseph as how angry they are. And so what? Flasas Rolba is paid to go back to Palmyra and Harmony and get negative affidavits. And surprise, surprise being paid to get negative affidavits, guy

comes back with negative affidavits. It's stunning that, that, you know, I'm sure it was a sample set where he owned, he asked everybody and every single person I talked to you said negative things. He's clearly going to people who already have an axe to grind and, and he's, you know, having them say things like, oh, yeah, Joseph Smith told me that he like never had knee plates and that what he really loved to do was just lie to people. I mean, frankly, when you read many of the affidavits in Mormonism unveiled, it's, they're really bad. I mean, they're just, you know, oh yeah, Joseph, Joseph and his family were totally addicted to lying, and they would actually bragged everyone about how good they were

at lying. Actually, no, you don't. You're either really, really bad at lying. Therefore, you brag to people about it. It's such a, there are just so many things. And you know, that book and that that Solomon's Balding claim, it provided people with an explanation of where the Book of Mormon came from for years, for, for really throughout most of the rest of the 19th century, educated people who wanted to have a way of dealing with, oh, that book, they were easily just able to say, oh, yeah, well, that's, that's sure it sounds like it's good because it was written by that, that pastor and, and you know, there were claims in it like, oh, yeah, every name in, you know, in the book of Mormon, I mean, even, you know, Solomon's Baldings kids got in on the action. They they would later claim to people. Oh, yeah,

my dad used to talk about Lehigh and Nephi all the time from the book that he had written, you know, and then they eventually found the Solomon's Baldings manuscript and they found it and they, you know, a non-Latter-day saint compared it to the Book of Mormon and said, there's not any names that are the same in both of them. There's no part of the story that's the same. And in fact, said some other explanation of the origin of the Book of Mormon must be arrived at if it wants to be at. I mean, so for decades, very intelligent people,

I mean, the halls of Congress talked about the fact that when they were trying to deal with the Mormon problem, that it was just a solemn and spulling, you know, forgery. And it's all spawned from this era of these earliest apostates attempting to undermine the church. So we don't know, we don't ever know where it is that attacks on our faith are gonna come. So, here, I just think this fall of Philastus,

and herba, Dr. Philastus Herba, I, you know, I think the arguments against Joseph today still come from those affidavits. I think the arguments against Joseph today still come from those affidavits. If you're reading something negative about Joseph Smith from his formative years, from when he was getting the plates and the translation, almost all of it is going to come from Mormonism unveiled

and the flaccist robot affidavits, almost all of it. From a guy who had been excommunicated for adultery, for adultery, adulterys, who has been paid to go back to get dirt and brings it back with it. Eber how himself, you know, has a dog in the fight. I mean, he's not a fan of religion to begin with. He's not a fan of organized religion. He feels like it's kind of, you know, that there's a lot of excesses.

So he's making fun of Latter-day Saints when they first show up. I mean, when when Parley, Pratt and Oliver Caldery show up preaching, he makes fun of him in his newspaper right away. But over the course of time, things become much, much more personal for him. First, his sister joins the church. So suddenly, again, it's one thing you're like, oh, these crazy idiots, why would anyone ever believe anything they have to say? And then my sister joined the church, right? And then his wife joins the church. and then his wife joins the church. I don't imagine that the meal times at the how homestead were,

she not only joins the church, she's actually one of the women that we have on record as having donated money for the Zion's camp march to go redeem Zion. So he has a very personal interest in this too. It's not simply, you know, and obviously we all have personal interest in the fact that we believe and we know people who believe. But when we're dealing with religion,

kind of like we talked about the last time I was on, the reality is whether or not Joseph Smith saw an angel is something that you can only know through God. You can read Joseph's account and ask God. If someone says in an affidavit, yeah, Joseph told me that he didn't really have the plates that he made that up and then just told people that he had the plates. That's great. That's wonderful.

Thank you for your commentary on it. That has actually, it can't overturn the fact that Joseph is saying that he had a miraculous experience and that miraculous experience as an angel appeared to him. And people can say whatever they want. People said that Jesus was a wine biber and blasphemer and they were wrong. I think it's important for our listeners to understand anyone who's maybe even new to the church that there is no other Like plausible explanation that anyone has given for the production of the book of more

There is none. There's no cohesive argument that anyone has made that said I know how he produced it There's all sorts of he's a religious genius. Oh, he's a he's a crazy whatever. But there's still to this day not any cohesive like this is when he wrote it. This is where the this is where the drafts were. There's not one. Another another explanation does not exist. I think it's an important purpose. There's not a there's certainly not one that's you know universally accepted even by non-latter day st. historians. I mean, and there are lots of different you know claims. I mean, there are certainly people who say, well, Joseph's just a religious genius.

And in which case, it just becomes much harder to explain why all of his other riding from the time period doesn't reflect that at all. Well, that's because Oliver Cowdery was a religious genius. Okay, well, then how come Oliver Cowdery's other riding from the time doesn't reflect that at all? Well, that's because Sydney Rigdon was secretly already a believer.

He came to Palmyrae, he hatched this plan with Joseph Smith and then he went back to Ohio. He pretended to get converted. And that's how the book of Moore's Rick has said he rigged and wrote it. And the problem is there's no evidence for that at all, except war. It would help you sleep at night. So that's like I said, I call that unisom anti-mormonism, right? It's, it's what would help me sleep at night. But that's not what historians do, right? Historians deal with what facts actually exist, right? The reality is when you read most books that talk about the history of Mormons from a non-Mormon perspective, they generally try to pass over the actual creation of the Book of Mormon pretty quickly, and that's because there isn't a really good argument. Now, look, there are obviously books that are

written when the specific topic is the origin of the Book of Mormon. But, you know, I'm thinking of like Daniel Walker House book that he wrote for Oxford on the history of the United States during that time period. When he covers the Book of Mormon, and he says, look, true or not, this is an impressive literary work, right? But he doesn't really attempt to try to tell his readers where he thinks it actually came from, right?

Joseph is saying that he thinks it actually came from. Right? Joseph is saying that he created it. And I think the historical default has to be, look outside of some other reason than Joseph has to be the one who's doing it, right? Because that's what he's saying. We don't have any other credible arguments. And then what do you do with the fact that he's clearly not capable of producing that? Well, then, you know, it goes too well. There has to be some other conspiracy. He got it from

somewhere else, or maybe they're, you know, he fell into some kind of translate state and produced it, even though all of our physical witnesses of the translation, they say something the opposite, right? So I mean, even even the theory that well, Joseph Smith was able to, you know, somehow, you know, he ate some bad mushrooms and he hallucinated and was able to create this far beyond his abilities. Even that theory is actually in the face of our existing historical records, because we have records from the people interacting with Joseph Smith at the time and during the translation. And that's not what they're saying. So, again, even those theories are more about how can I make these things equal? Because Joseph's

a real problem. He, by all the documents you read, Joseph really believes he was called by God. By all the documents you read, Joseph really believes he was called by God. There's nothing in anything that Joseph has that suggests he doesn't really believe. If he really believes, it becomes much harder to explain how he fabricated the book of Mormon and the gold plates and everything like that if he really believes. And so, honestly, a lot of historians simply take a pass on it. They simply say, Joseph claimed that he had received the gold plates from an angel, and they move on beyond it because the story they're trying to tell isn't the origin of the Book of Mormon. They just, they kind of move past it. Not Solomon's balding, tidied people over

for a little bit. For almost a century, I mean, all throughout the 19th century. And even now, you'll hear some people say, well, maybe there's actually a second SOMEN spulding, maybe. No way. Part two. Okay. Yeah. And there was a shooter on the grassy knoll and all kinds of stuff. I mean, the reality is that conspiracy theories are always, you know, they're fun because you don't actually have to have proof for them. But when you're doing history, you need evidence and evidence really suggests two things. That Joseph Smith really, really, really believed he was called by God, that he wasn't a fraud, no matter how often someone wants to call him.

All the evidence points there, right? All the evidence. I mean, yeah. It's that way with many of those things. He doesn't have a secret journal. I can't believe this is working. Yeah, it's that way with many. He doesn't have a secret. He doesn't have a secret journal. I can't believe this is working. Yeah, it's a case with a lot of people, religious people from history that,

you know, historians are not in the position to judge whether or not they've actually had the experience with God that they claim. All we can really do is examine whether or not they seem to be legitimately believing the things they're saying. And look, sometimes they're not. It happens that people are too faced. And you can tell from their other records that they deliberately are being that way. But with, you know, it's not a historian's job.

And therefore, it's not a historical argument to have a discussion about whether or not Joan of Arc actually heard the voice of God. Okay. She says she did. You can say as a person, well, I find that pretty unlikely, especially if you're English, I suppose, right? I find that very unlikely that this French general beating the English would, would hear, but as a historian, you don't really have a reason to say, oh, that Joan of Arc, she's a liar. Instead, what you can really say is Joan of Arc really seemed

to believe that she'd heard the voice of Jesus. Now, that doesn't prove that she heard the voice of Jesus, but it does mean she's not a fraud, right? A fraud is someone who knowingly tells a story to people in order to curry favor that they know they don't deserve. There is a difference between someone who really believes they're acting in the name of God and someone who's saying those words in order to curry favor. And there's just no evidence. You can read the 100,000 pages

of Joseph Smith documents and you can read them the 12,000 different, you can read them all the documents. There's nothing in any of them, private, public, that even suggests that Joseph doesn't really believe he's called by God. So you have to deal with him on that level. He really believes he's called by God. He's not a fraud. And then he comes up with this book that is pretty impressive. Yeah, that's pretty impressive.

And that's just pretty impressive. And entirely outside his abilities and you know and but Salmonds Balding manuscript really for a long time it helped provide that explanation. Why does this seem so good? Why does it? Why does it? Confuse so many people to become Mormons. Oh, that's because an actual real Christian wrote it and this imposter, you know, took it and used it for his own nefarious purposes. So I did not want to tell this story, but I've been impressed upon to tell it. So I will buy your friend Hank. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, just to do Hank

a solid, I'm going to. Yeah. This is one of my favorite stories. So the reality is you don't actually know when and where you're going to have people attack your faith. And I think we live in a time, especially with the internet, that you know, you're sometimes surprised by it. You know, I mean, you will casually post something on Facebook, you know, and someone will in your comments, you know, tell you, you know, that you're a Satan worshipper and, you know, the reality is there's obviously a lot of vitriol. That's exactly the Joseph was told. We were building a house. And so ward that we were in just temporarily. We were essentially renting month to month in a place. And we already knew the new ward that we were going to be in if they ever actually finished our house, which was on the other side of town.

So we were actually at times attending this other ward that we were going to be in, because that's where we're really going to be. So we were not as invested in the ward as we should have been, obviously, right? And your rental property was. Yeah, exactly. And my wife was pregnant and she's super sick when she was pregnant. And so she wasn't able to go to church very often.

And so here we are in this very temporary ward because we thought we'd be done in time. It wasn't, so we had to to move somewhere we could rent very temporarily. And so, I went to a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday. Someone goes up and begins bearing a testimony. And this person had a stack of papers with him. And he began to systematically speak this false, he began to attack the church from the pulpit. The stake president comes up and whispers to the guy and the guy just keeps right on going. And so eventually he runs out of material. And so I see, I can see that there are a group of them

and they're all down there on the first pew ready to go up as soon as this guy's done. But they had one fatal flaw in their take over the saccharomyne plan. And that was they hadn't gone to enough of our fast and testimony meetings to realize that you can go sit up on the stand to be the next person in line. If you so so so as this guy as as I realize there's a whole group of them.

As he starts to finish and their next member their group down there gets ready to start to come up. I essentially sprint to the I'm in the back of the chapel and I you know, all the way up to all the way up to the front of the pulpit and and and and I get up there first and then I just proceed I I fill a buster of the whole rest of the meeting. I gave a 35 minute testimony because you know that way the time's taken up you know and and you know eventually I get this signal from the people behind me, like, they're like, okay, we can, we can end now and the stake president stands right up and he closes the meeting and that's it. I mean, I'm working for the Joseph Smith papers and, and so,

you know, I'm going through, essentially going through point by point and, and, and saying, you know, you know, there are some people who make this claim about Joseph, did, did, did, did, did, you know, repeating what this guy said, but they obviously haven't read this, they haven't read this, they haven't read this, they haven't read this. We know from this source and this source and this source that this is the case, Joseph said, you know what I mean, and just going through the whole thing.

And so I go to Sunday school and at the time I was meeting, it was a very old building and I was meeting on the stage in it was the gospel principles class actually, I was in the gospel principles class. And and as I'm in the meeting, I can hear our stake president had a very distinctive and loud booming voice. I can hear him going around to the various classrooms looking for somebody. And, and you know, it was one of those buildings that had the old dividers that they had in the gym to create classrooms. Anyway, so I can hear him going to each of those and he's like, and he's looking for someone. And the person he's looking for, he thinks is named Dirk Moss.

And so, you know, he keeps knocking on these doors and he's saying, is there a brother Moss in here? And they're like, no, no, I don't think we have a brother. No, no, a dirt moss. Is there a dirt moss? I don't know what, I don't know what dirt moss. And I think what happened is he asked the second counselor, because I got out, I was, I was out like a shot when that thing was gone. And I think he asked the second counselor, who was that, right? And the second counselor was like I mean to to that second counselor's credit He had seen me one he had met me one other time and he remembered your name and he was like oh that's brother Dirk dirkmont and so the state president thought my first name was dirk

And then my last name was moss and so he's wandering around the chapel around the church And so he's wandering around the church, around the church, asking for someone that no one thinks exists because he keeps asking for a brother mosque. And they're like, we don't have a brother mosque. No, we have a brother mosque. You know, the one in the in the in the in the check room. I don't know, I don't know who that is because they didn't know me

because I was never there at church. And so anyway, eventually I hear him coming to the stage and I hear the, and I hear the big knock and I can say he's got a booming voice. And he comes to the teacher answer, oh, president, look to Kanuba, do you have a brother Moss in your class? I don't think we have no brother Moss, a dark Moss, do you have a dark Moss in your class? I don't think and then he saw me in the back.

And he's like brother Moss and he comes striding across all the way across. I was I was so far down in my chair like please don't see me, please don't see me. And he comes up and he's like brother Moss. He's like I just I just wanted to you know come talk to you about what happened in there. And he said, I thank you so much for for being willing to stand up and and say those things. And he's brother Moss. How did you know those things you were talking about? I know. Look, at this point, he said my name wrong, like shouted it wrong about 30 times. So at this point, you can't be like, actually, my name's Garrett. You know, you kind of just let me let people say face.. Yeah, I mean, you know, you kind of just let people, you let people say face, you know,

you know, you know, you know, if someone said your name wrong that many times, you just let it go. Like brother Moss, you know, how did you know those things? You know, he said, I've been a member my whole life. And there are lots of things that you said that I've never heard before. I mean, it was all, you know, you, you, you, seem like you knew everything there was to know about Joseph Smith from that time period. I mean, I was working on documents volume one at the time for the Joseph Smith papers, which was the 1828 to the 1831 time period. So everything that this guy was talking about, you know, and, and I wanted the conversation to be over and I didn't want to try to explain it. And it

had totally interrupted the whole class. And so I was like, ah, you know, I guess I'm just lucky, I guess I just remembered some of the stuff I did on my way. And, and he's like, well, I just, I just want to thank you. So the best part about that story that I think the reason why Hank wants me to tell it is not actually part of the story.

It's not actually part, that part of the story shows that you never actually know when someone's going to challenge your faith and make all kinds of claims. That's an important, and I'm going to go ahead and test and test and meeting. But the best part of the story is that we got a call like that week that our house was ready.

And so we actually never went back to that ward again. And so what I want to believe, but I don't know is that that stake president was like, I went back to my office and I looked on the records of my stake. And there was no dark moss. There had never been a dark moss in my. We never heard from him again. He was there by himself. He was sitting alone by himself. He got, he seemed to know everything there was to know about Joseph Smith. And then he was gone. And then he was gone. So if you ever hear a story about a three knee fight coming out of late in Utah, not true. It was just a happenstance of circumstances that the anti-Mormons came to a

fast and testimony meeting that I was actually in as they attacked Joseph Smith on the basis of early Joseph Smith history. I think. So yeah, there was no dirt moss. Yeah, I I'm sure that you know, that's how three Nephites stories get. Yeah, exactly. That's we started here with Ezra booth, who was so disappointed and turns really angry. Really. And and you know, sad part about the booth is that while he seems to initially be trying to ingratiate himself back into the methodist's fold. What we learn from another history, this is not a Latter-day Saint history, he actually abandons religion

entirely. And by the time he dies, he's an agnostic, he doesn't believe. I mean, he's agnostic, he's not atheist, which you couldn't really say you were. The late 19th century anyway, but he's kind of abandon it. It's a sad thing. And I think it happens to a lot of people who do lose their faith in the sense that it's one of the more unfortunate things. I mean, I hope that if people leave our church, that will at least still believe that God loves them and that Jesus is their savior. that God loves them and that Jesus is their savior. And that there's still truth out there. And it's unfortunate when people have kind of lost all hope.

And that really is what happens with Ezra Booth. And you know, the other reason I told that story is that Sydney Rigden is going to publicly challenge Ezra Booth and eventually hurl about another is to meet him in the public square anywhere. Simon's writer, he'll challenge Simon and others to meet him in the public square anywhere. Simon's writer, he'll challenge Simon's writer to meet him in the public square and he will debate them on any point of doctrine. And so he's never taken up on that, but he's more than willing to do it.

Let's finish section 62. It's what the next day. Yeah, and it's very brief. Yeah, they're still on their way back, obviously. I'm still on the legend of Dirk Moss. So then they run into this guy named Dirk Moss. Well, so what happens is they actually, it's precipitated by the fact that what happens is they run into a group of other elders, because now they're no longer taking the water out. They run into a group of elders that are coming down from that initial missionary call

in Doctrine and Covenants Section 56 that they're going down. So, they run into Hyrum and others who actually had not made it to sign yet because these elders had actually taken seriously what God had commanded them to do. That they were to preach the word as much as they could along the way. And one of the unfortunate aspects of that is they had taken so long to get down there as they preached on their way down that Joseph had arrived, received the revelation of where the temple in Zion was supposed to be built, had some other, you know, held their conference, they were supposed to hold and then went back, you know, on their way back to hell. On their way. So so they let's clarify, Garrett, let's clarify for listeners that Joseph wasn't commanded to teach on his way. It was him and Sidney go.

No, they were supposed to go, but all of the other elders were supposed to preach. I just want to make sure. Yeah. And I mean, obviously, I'm sure they did preach where they had the chance, but Hyrum and others had taken it very seriously. And so they were weeks behind the other people. And they run into each other. And so it is as negative as DNC 61 was, right? This negative, you know, near death experience. DNC 62 is this, it's kind of this reunion, you know friends, but it also precipitates some questions, right? Well, Joseph, if our goal was to preach all the way down to Zion so we could be there for the conference that's held in Zion that you guys had last week, so do we just turn

around and go home with you now? Or do we keep going to Zion? So I think there's some cool things to pull out of that. I think verse three is something that has, you know, every missionary who's ever gone out and felt frustrated has probably had, hopefully, someone point them to 62 verse three. Never the last year, blessed for the testimony, which he have born is recorded in heaven for the angels to look upon and They rejoice over you and your sins are forgiven. I Mean it on just the possibility that my sins could be forgiven if I'm bearing testimony of the truth I'm gonna bear my testimony to every person I meet. I mean, just that I can't imagine what, you know,

I'm guessing that these elders felt similarly frustrated like everyone else was, that this was not the thousands of people marching into the river to be baptized all at once. They'd essentially not been listened to, they said, not been successful. It was a terrible arduous trek. And now they even missed the conference they were trying to get to. And and God trying to remind them here the Lord trying to remind them that what you did was follow me. And even if you don't convert anybody, what you were supposed to do was be obedient and you were obedient and you're going to be blessed for that obedience even if people didn't follow. So I think that's a beautiful part of that section and then they'll be going. Secondly, they get the answer to that question. That's verse four. And now continue your journey design and they're going to hold their own meeting there to celebrate the fact they're there. Now, why is it that they are told to continue to go? Right? It's very

similar to the same advice that was just given about why the Joseph group, why his party had taken boats, even though God obviously knew that they were eventually going to have some problems in the boats. Why? Because I want you to be able to bear a testimony of the experience you had. This is the same thing that these people are told here that they're going to go and that they're going to be able to bear testimony of that when they go back. So, and then you may return, this is verse five, and then you may return to bear record, yay, even altogether or two by two

is seem with you good. And that worth not to me only be faithful and declare glad tidings under the heavens, the earth and among the congregations of the wicked. Well, I guess we do six, do you behold? I the Lord have brought you together that the promise might be fulfilled, that the faithful among you should be preserved

and rejoice together in the land of Missouri, eye the Lord promise, eye the Lord, promise the faithful and cannot lie. And so part of the reason why he still wants them to go is first of all, they were promised that they'd get to see the land of Zion. And second of all, they're gonna not, when they go back to bear testimony in Kirtland to the main body of the church, they're not going to be able to say, yeah, you know,

we got like most of the way there. And then we just kind of turn around. They're going to be able to say, we saw the spot where the Lord told Joseph Smith the temple as the center of the city of Zion is going to be built. We saw it. It's real. We were there. And there's something to that. There's something to the testimony of that experience that makes it all the more powerful for those who are still wondering about belief. about belief. When I was a bishop, we had this guy whose wife died, elderly couple, very inactive, went and talked to him and he said, well, my wife just had this hang up with plurum marriage. I was a ward clerk before.

And we invited him back and he said, okay. And he came back to church and then one, one day he knocked on my office when I was a bishop. And he just came in and he sat down and he said, I had a dream last night and she said, take me to the temple. Now I can't exactly wrap my head around it how cool that is because she was in the temple in the dream. She said, take me to the temple and suddenly something made sense.

She came walking out and she looked beautiful and she was in front of this white cloudy thing. So we're like, I'm going to get you signed up. We're going to get you the temple prep lessons. Okay, he takes the temple prep lessons. Uh, finally goes to the temple, long story short, knocks on my door again. He says, Bishop, and I kind of gave it away. He said, Bishop, I went to the temple.

And when they said, we will now reveal the veil of the temple. That's what it was. That's awesome. I like shoes in the temple went to the next life with this very bad opinion, confusion, whatever about plural marriage, but she showed up in the temple. Apparently, forgiven, apparently, everything made sense and said, you got to take me to the temple. Apparently forgiven, apparently everything made sense and said, you gotta take me to the temple. And he did. And that's awesome. Past away a few months ago,

but I'm still wrapping my head around how cool that is that she was in the temple when she came to him and told him you gotta take me here. It's amazing those experiences that again, are miracles that there's something beyond. Even just recently with my brother dying, my, so my 12 year old son, Kai, he was playing basketball in like a,

a comp basketball league and they played a pretty tough game and ended up losing at the end. And so we were, but it was really late game at night and we're driving home, like 11 o'clock at night. And even though I said, hey, man, as soon as we get home, you know, you gotta get to bed, man. You gotta school in the morning, we gotta go. And so we got home and I was kind of doing the dishes

and my wife was in there doing some other things too. And he just sat there. He sat at our counter. And he was sitting there and it was just kind of weird. If you had teenagers, it's like, hmm, there's what's going on with them today, right? And he, I said, hey, hi, man, what you doing? Is the time for bed? Go get in bed. And he said, he said, so I had to write a biography for school. And so I immediately went to the most negative place, right?

Because that's what parents do. Because you've been through this rodeo before. And so like, are to the most negative place, right? Because that's what parents do. You know, because you've been through this rodeo before. And so like, are you trying to tell me that this is due tomorrow and that you didn't do anything? And now we have to spend up tonight. I mean, that was my reaction, which obviously was literally the worst reaction. And a demonstration of how un in tune with the spirit I was. And that's how I was like, uh, son, did you not even do it? And he kind of interrupts me.

He's like, and I'm doing it on, I'm doing an Uncle Bryant. That was my brother. I'm doing a biography on him. And he said, Dad, while I was reading, because he had the, the obituary, he said, while I was reading the obituary. He said, well, I was reading the obituary. I just started crying because I miss him so much. And he said,

Dad, I heard a voice. I heard his voice. And he said, everything's gonna be okay. And I know my son and I know my son wasn't making up a story. Yeah. And so I think it's beautiful when we get these connections from the other side. And I, I'm a believer that what we think a chance is here of getting the gospel is. Yeah.

I think every single person that God can shove into those kingdoms, he is going to buy hook or crook, buy all means he won't exercise any compulsion except that to like force people to take another chance to try because he loves him so much he wants him to be saved. That's why I mean, I love DNZ76 for that, the very reason. I mean, it just transformative of Christian thought. And I think our listeners would love to hear on your personal thoughts on Joseph Smith, the restoration and what it is done for you, especially considering all

that you've been through recently. Probably Probably, I'm not capable of expressing what it is I feel and believe, I think. I don't have the ability to speak with justice to what it is I feel. I studied church history, I mean my entire adult life, there are obviously other people who are far better scholars than I am and people who are more intelligent than I am. Certainly people who probably follow the gospel better than I do. But I have in studying the life and documents of Joseph Smith and those early men and women who were early, Gladurday Saints, I've had the spirit speak to me multiple times and tell me that this is God's true work. I was working on the Joseph Smith papers on a volume with another colleague. And it was interesting as we were

going through the documents. You know, we'd read each of the documents separately next to one another as we then we'd try to figure out, okay, we need to annotate this, we need to annotate this. And there were multiple times that we'd be reading the document and we would look up at one another at exactly the same time without anything being said. And it was because we both felt the same thing at the same time where we expressed, you know, what we just read was, was not written

from Joseph Smith. We just read was a revelation that came from God and it was truth that came from God and that it was so enlightening. I realize, obviously, I have all kinds of friends that are into the church, out of the church, on their way out of the church, hopefully coming on back into the church. I mean, we all have friends in every aspect of our life. And sometimes there are aspects of church history or doctrine or belief that that cause us to struggle. And they make us wonder if the whole thing is true. If you're someone who's thinking, well, I have a few doubts. So I guess I just don't have a testimony at all. Well, if you have a few doubts, it's called being a person. It's called existing at all, right? If

the fact that you have questions about things and you don't have all the answers does not mean that you don't have faith or a testimony. It just means you're like every other person who's ever sought out faith in the history of the world. And sometimes because we can't get all the answers, it causes us to to get to spin a little bit. To the point where the thing we can't get the answer to is such that it causes us to forget what it is that we even have. You know, it is sometimes a very real frustration. I'm not belittling this frustration in any way. I understand why this is a very difficult concept. And that is what is marriage going to be like in the next life, right?

I mean, it is something that is such a major part of not only our church, but our culture in this mortal world and trying to figure out how it's going to work. And then especially when it comes to things like, now, wait a minute, my grandmother, she was married to four different men when she was alive, but when we went and did her temple work for, we sealed her to all four of them, but obviously

she's not married to all four of them in the next life. So who's my grandmother going to be with? Because, you know, I mean, I read her journal and I really think she was closest to the second husband that we sealed her to, but you know, they told us to seal her to all of them, and so we, and you can start to see how people start to get really worked up in their mind because they don't understand how it is that marriage is going to work in the next life. And sometimes that frustration that you don't know that it hasn't been revealed can get such that it causes people to have a faith crisis. It causes them to say, I just don't know what to believe anymore.

But it's important that when you're in those times that you realize the very reason that you're asking the question is because you believe Joseph Smith's a prophet. Because, you know, frankly, there ain't no Presbyterian wondering who great grandma is married to in the next life. Because the answer is nobody.

Because marriage doesn't exist in the next life. The only reason you have a question of who's married to who in the next life or what that marriage is like in the next life is because Joseph Smith's a prophet of God The moment he stops being a prophet, you don't have to worry anymore about how marriage or eternal families work in the next life because they don't. The moment Joseph stops being a prophet, you don't have to worry about how the pre-mortal life factors into our progression because it doesn't because there wasn't a pre-mortal life because there isn't a progression. I hope that when people struggle with the questions they have, they will realize that the truths that we have, the ones that you can hold onto are so powerful and so important that you're not willing to give them up, not on the basis of a possibility

that you don't understand a maybe, right? The very least, I hope we can adopt, you know, Pascal's wager that we can at least say, you know, what he said. And that is that, look, if you're uncertain about the existence of God, you should always bet on God. You should wager on God. Because the reality is, if God doesn't exist, and you live your whole life like God does exist, And you die, well, you won't be able to regret the fact that you lived your life like God existed. Because if there isn't a God and you die, then you don't exist anymore. So there is no regret.

There's no sitting back and like, oh, why wasn't I drunk more often? Why don't I even follow the word of wisdom? Because you won't exist, so it won't matter. On the other hand, if God does exist, then how we choose to live this life actually does matter. And the amount of regret that one might have, if they choose to reject and throw away the possible truths, because there are great difficulties and trials in this life,

that might engender a great deal of regret. So that was probably not what you're looking for. I know, but I gotta tell you, when the very questions we have come from the doctrines, yeah, they come from the fact that Joseph was a prophet. And so do we know exactly why X happened or why? Do we know exactly what happened with the Curtlyn Safety Society? Do I understand why God instituted plural marriage? Can I

frankly understand all the different aspects of different prophetic utterance? The answer is no. But I can tell you that the reason why I know my brother is still alive, the reason why I believe that Jesus is the Christ is because I know that Joseph Smith saw resurrected Jesus and not just once, but on multiple occasions. And I'm not giving that up. I've got all kinds of questions I don't have answers to. And that's especially frustrating for me because I've dedicated my life to trying to find answers. But I'm not giving that up. And I mean, I just hope your listeners, if you're struggling with your faith, I hope you will remember what it is that we believe that we don't believe that people are burning in hell for eternity, that there's every single person outside of a few saved people

are suffering in some kind of eternal horrible hell. We believe in the eventual salvation of essentially every person who's lived on this earth. We believe in an equality of people being able to go to the celestial kingdom that every single person who's ever lived on this earth will have an equal opportunity in this life or the next in order to go to the celestial kingdom. We believe that all of the horrible things that have happened to us in this life are going to be made up to us in the next life. We believe that families can be and will be together forever. The marriage can be forever and that you didn't have a chance for marriage in this life. You'll have it in the next life.

All of these things that we believe are so beautiful. I hope we won't casually give away what we believe because of the questions that we can't answer. I testify as much as I can that even though I'm, you know, a historian and I, you know, studied things from an academic perspective,

I have also had the Holy Spirit speak to me and tell me that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and that Jesus is the Christ. And I think that all of us can have that experience. And if you had it once and now you're losing it, have it again. Read, spend some time reading the things that Joseph Smith wrote, and not just what people said that he wrote. Go read them. The Joseph Smith papers are all online. Start reading them and the spirit will speak to you that he's a prophet of God. Amen. This is our second episode with you and it was every bit, if not better than. Beautiful. Yeah, John, I'm with you. Yeah. And powerful and exactly. That's a, just brings clarity to think of it that way.

I love the way you said that. We, of course, want to thank Dr. Garrett Durkmoth, not brother Durkmoth, for being with us today. We want to thank all of you who listened and laughed with us. We're very grateful for your support. We want to thank our executive producers Steve and Shannon Swanson and our production crew David Perry Lisa Spice Jamie Nielsen Kyle Nelson will Stoughton and Maria Hilton and we hope you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him.