Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 76 Part 1 : Dr. Steven C. Harper

Episode Date: July 3, 2021

Dr. Steven C. Harper shares why the Saints referred to this section as “The Vision”  before the First Vision was shared widely, “The Vision” of the Three Degrees of Glory changed the soteriology of salvation. Dr. Harper explains how this series of visions and commentary was not only controversial, but how God has provided a way for most of His children to return. This expansive revelation changes the Saints’ view of grace and salvation forever.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello everyone, it's a good day here at the Follow Him podcast. My name is Hank Smith and I'm your host.

I am here with the delightful John, by the way. Welcome, John. That's an adjective. I don't hear with my family, but thank you. You are delightful in every way. We want to remind everybody that you can find us on social media. We have a great Instagram and Facebook page

that are run by the wonderful Jamie Nielsen. You can get show notes, transcriptions at followhim.co, followhim.co, and please rate and review the podcast that really helps us out when you do that. I look forward to every week, to be honest. I mean, we've just had some brilliant experts on, but way early on in our podcast, I don't know if you remember, back when we weren't podcasters, we didn't know what we were doing. We invited Dr. Steve Harper on to the podcast. He graciously came when we didn't know what we were doing. Tell us about Steve. He will be so surprised that we still don't know what we're doing. Well, we're so excited to have Steve back, and I am excited to have him back, especially

for this section. In fact, I'm going to read his bio. I have a book. I bought this like 10 years ago called Making Sense of the Doctrine and Covenants. And what I love about this book that Dr. Harper wrote is sometimes books sound like they're written for other scholars, and sometimes they sound like they are written for other scholars and sometimes they sound like they're written for the rest of us and this is one of those that is so easy to understand and has helped me tremendously in

addressing these sections. I always read this before we do our podcast and before we look at each section and in the back of making sense of the doctrine of covenants, we've already had Steve on before. So I'm going to use this little shorter bio, the about the author on the back jacket cover here. Steven C. Harper is an associate professor of church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University and one of the editors of the Joseph Smith papers. After serving a mission in Canada, he told me that was Winnipeg, and graduating from BYU here into PhD in early American history from Lehigh University

in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and taught for two years on the faculty of BYU Hawaii. Brother Harper has received several fellowships and awards for his scholarship and writing, including the T Edgar Lyon and Juanita Brooks awards from the Mormon History Association. He needs wife Jennifer a sea-bring Harper or the parents of five children. And we understand he's currently serving as a bishop. So thank you for being with us, Dr. Harper, and welcome. Thank you, gentlemen.

It's a pleasure. I would say if Edward Partridge was reincarnated, he'd be Steve Harper. He's just brilliant and wonderful. I will say this to everybody listening. If you haven't, some of you have joined us halfway through because your friends, thank you, for recommending us, recommended the podcast to you. I would highly encourage you to go back to our very, it's

our second, I think it's our second interview that we did on the first vision with Dr. Harper. It is enlightening. It will just fill your soul with joy and incredible knowledge about the profit and what he was, what he was going through at the time. There's nobody, and Steve will disagree. he always does, but there's nobody on the planet that knows more about the first vision and Steve Arpert. There really isn't. Maybe his mentors, he would say, a couple of his mentors like Richard Bushman, and he's always giving credit to his mentors, and I think that's wonderful, but I hope you go back and listen to that. Listen to that episode. Hank, I'm glad you said that and I read I'm turning around because I'm looking at my I have a shelf over there of

Your history, but Steve's book. I think it's called Joseph Smith's first vision and that was great because he went through all of the different different accounts and And spoke about each one of them but boy, so one of those last chapters about being a seeker I still remember in fact I think I emailed you, I don't know how many years ago, and told you thank you for that, Stephen. So I'm glad you said that. Thank you. I'm in a lot to me. Yeah. Steve, let's jump into this, this week's lesson. It is one section of the Doctrine and Covenants. It's section 76 of the Doctrine Covenants. I've noticed just even in the heading, you read Revelation given, Revelation given,

Revelation given, then you get to 76, and it doesn't say Revelation given to Joseph Smith, it says, a vision given to Joseph Smith, the prophet and Sidney Rigged in the Hierom Ohio. So, let's go back as far as you want, and set us up to read this section with the right context in mind. In the beginning, the God's created the heavens and the earth. Go back as far as you want.

There are all kinds of religious ideas in the air, but it is overwhelmingly a Protestant country. And that means that it is very biblically based, but the Bible is read in particular ways. You might, I sometimes use the metaphor of glasses. Everybody has glasses that they wear when they read the scriptures and those glasses change how you read what you see, what you're able to discern. That's true for everybody. So Protestant early American glasses mean that people read the Bible as the word of God and that they see in it salvation through Jesus Christ. I'll over simplify here a lot, but that comes by faith, faith in Christ, who gives His grace to believers and saves them from sin and death. Those who receive Christ as their Savior go to heaven, and those who don't go to hell. Did you do us a quick favor for those of our listeners who are listening, who have heard the word Protestant and going,

I don't know quite what that, it come from the word protest, right? Yes, that's right. So Protestants are Christians. They originate in Europe. They are dissatisfied with Catholic Christianity. There's much that they love about it, but also much that they disagree with and so in one way or other they they reform Christianity and begin to preach their own versions, they publish their own versions of the screen. So primarily followers of John Calvin's teachings come to the shores, the Atlantic shores of New England, Massachusetts, It's Cetera Joseph Smith's ancestors are among them and they bring a version of

Christianity that is What we sometimes call Puritanism Congregationalism or reformed and it has or reformed, and it has lots of important doctrines that concern us, but today, primarily, what we're concerned about noticing is that it's a heaven and hell kind of sotaryology, that is doctrine of salvation. So Christians will go to heaven if they are faithful to Christ and accept him as Savior and he accepts them in some versions and and they'll go to hell if Christ is not their Savior. And in many of these theologies, heaven is very very small and hell is very big. In other words, most people are going to hell, deservedly so, and very few, relatively, will go to heaven. That's kind of a depressing, that kind of a depressing theology, but okay.

Yeah, I'm grateful for the restoration, for many reasons, but one of them is that it radically, radically revises that sotaryology, that doctrine of salvation. And what might be interesting for folks to notice is that section 76, which is really a series of visions that are narrated and then commented on as well. It goes well beyond anything that had been restored before that. In other words, think of the Book of Mormon. There's no reason that a Protestant couldn't read the Book of Mormon and agree completely with its social ideology. And some have, there's a famously a Baptist book of Mormon, a Baptist person who weighs in and says, there's nothing wrong with the book of Mormon. It is perfectly in line with with biblical teaching. And it is the the reason for

other Christians sometimes to reject it is the way we get it, not anything it says in particular. it is the way we get it, not anything it says in particular. So the book of Mormon says there's heaven and hell, there's two ways, there's, you know, when you die, you go back to the God who gave you life, and then you're separated into heaven or hell. So what we want to notice is that doctrine and covenant section 76 is a little bit like going into higher math. I'm always uncomfortable using math metaphors. I have no idea about math. But you learn pretty simple math thoroughly on the basics.

And then if you keep at it, you learn that math is more sophisticated, more complicated. It doesn't invalidate the basics you learn. Those are still the building blocks. But there's more to it than what you learned. And Section 76 is the beginning part of the restoration that says there's more to it. You've ever heard before? It is the first of what we sometimes call the exaltation revelations. President Nelson's terms, he's talked a lot about salvation. Salvation is what we've been talking about so far too. That's Christians being saved by Christ to heaven and Laterities seems believe in salvation, but because of the restoration we also believe in exaltation we believe in heavens beyond heaven

We believe in conditions of salvation that are more than just Not being damned or going to hell in fact laterities things so the only people I know of who think you can be saved and damned at the same time. That's exactly right. You know, when you ask a letter that he's saying, are you saved, they have a, it takes half an hour for us to answer that question. We're just being asked for a yes or no answer,

but it takes half an hour. The reason it does is because of revelations like the one beginning in section 76. It is spectacular. It is. But I've heard you say before that if you joined the church in 1830s, 1840s, you didn't talk about the first vision. You talked about the vision. The earliest manuscript that we have of section 76 begins with the great big words at the top the vision and This comes February 1832. So this is months before Joseph as far as we can tell records his first vision So the vision in the early days of the church meant Section 76. It was controversial from the beginning. You know, it essentially says Christianity,

as we've received it, is perfectly fine, but it is kindergarten. And we're advancing into, you know, higher math. And there's more to the story of salvation than the simple version we've been told. And so as you might expect, that's, that throws people for a loop. Even Latter-day Saints, later in the early 1850s, as I recall, Brigham Young will give a talk and he'll say, man, when the vision

came along, that was tough for me to swallow. That was way outside anything I'd ever been taught before. And he did a wise thing. He said, I did not reject it. I couldn't just accept it all at once, but I decided to think and pray and think. And as he did that, he learned by the Holy Ghost that the vision was right and good. So I'm grateful that he didn't just reject it because it was unfamiliar. You remember Joseph saying things in January of 1843, he said, the saints fly to pieces like glass every time I try to teach him something new, well, Jesus Christ. Brigham Young was open, right?

Brigham Young was wide open to the restoration through Joseph Smith, and he struggled to internalize section 76. He recognized that it was just so different from what he'd. So for our listeners, they need to get out of the mindset of, oh, I've been taught this since I was since I was two, right? About the three degrees of glory. We need to get to, okay, this is brand new for these people who think brand new. is small and hell is big. Is that a lot of the Latter-day Saints? Yeah, oh yeah. These people are Protestants for their whole life.

So Brigham Young, for example, comes from the Methodist tradition and he brings with him the idea that you can influence your salvation, you can come to Christ and receive his Pervenient grace, a gift of his grace, but that will qualify you for heaven, and otherwise you'll go to hell. And that's pretty much all there is to it. I have that line. Are you guys old enough to know the 1976 First Vision movie where they've got the Protestant

minister saying, saved her damn? That's all there is to it. Yeah, that's a way of capturing what you're watching. I remember the the newer first vision movie where the man looks at Joseph says, be careful boy, your eternal soul is at stake, right? Hey Steve, could you comment on the idea of universalism? You bet. Universalism is certainly a thread that is running through and under and around section 76. Universalism is a response to versions of Protestantism that are especially emphatic about God's plan being to damn most of his children. And Universalists, including Joseph Smith's father, who joins a Universalist Society in the late 1700s, they read the scriptures, they read the same Bible with a different pair of glasses, and they focus on

lots of passages that show that God is love, right? They like the teachings of John and other places that say God's not a damning God. That's not his dominant nature. God is full of love. God wants to save his children. He will. It's only reasonable that he's going to save all of his children. Now, they may they may deserve some punishment for their bad behavior and they'll get it. But in the end, God will save his children. All of them. That's universalism in a nutshell. And as you can see, it's a response against a reaction to versions of Protestantism that are considered by Universalists to be unreasonable and overly harsh readings of the Bible. You can see then why he doesn't go to church.

Joseph Smith Sr. Yeah, right? Because at church, the Presbyterian church, if God doesn't choose you, sorry, right? That's the Presbyterian version that Lucy Mack joined. What we're noticing then is that the revelations that Joseph Smith receives are in conversation with teachings that are in the air, right? The revelations don't come in a vacuum. They come because people have questions and concerns and there are ideas colliding with each other, right? There are arguments that are ongoing and different versions and visions of what the future holds. And it's not that there's nothing out there to think about and Joseph needs to fill the

void. It's that there are lots of things out there to think about and competing. And he needs to know which of them is right. He needs to understand. And he particularly in this instance is revising the Bible. He's reading the Bible through very's salvation is. Rigdon knows it well. He knows the versions of it well, the alternatives to it. He's argued for a salvation through Christ, for sure. And Joseph and Sidney are reading the Bible carefully. By now, they're in John, and they're in the fifth chapter of John and they're reading the part that

says that the just will be resurrected to glory and the unjust resurrected to damnation. And you can't live in their time and place without wondering what that means, right? It's pretty black and white. And as Joseph reads that he thinks, well, what does it mean? How exactly does it apply? Who qualifies as the just and who qualifies as the wicked? And he knows enough about human nature and behavior to think that's there's no nuance in that. And of course those are reflected in the various versions of churches and doctrines of salvation in the day. So it's overly simple to say he's just got John

Five on his mind and nothing else is in there competing with John five the fact is he's in John Five, but he's got a whole bunch of other ideas colliding with and Allying with and bumping off what he reads and that's the reason he needs more light More understand it to me. You just described the process of revelation for a lot of us. Ideas, thoughts, you know, competing, like what am I supposed to do here? John 5, this is the Lord speaking, correct? He says, Marvel, not at this, for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation." So there's either eternal life or damnation.

And Joseph's history tells us that at this point he reflects and he says, well, tells us that at this point he reflects and he says, well, what does this mean? Right? What does this passage mean? If everybody is rewarded for the deeds done in the body during their mortal life, then how will this actually work out in practical reality? Or there's not just people who are purely great and then purely evil. There's not just two camps What to get an a in my class you have 930 points and those who get 929 I those are the ones you're like I'm so sorry, right, but we have to put the line somewhere So oh that would be so hard to see salvation. You're you were one work away, right?

There's this razor thin line that divides it. Yeah. And that's why this this whole thing just tastes good. But could I could I ask you, Steve, the the JST changes resurrection of good and evil in John 528, 29 to the resurrection of the just and the unjust. What is the timing of the JSTs that before Section 76 that so section 76 is the reason for that Revision right? So they're reading John 5 as

The as they're revising the Bible thinking about this is how as they're revising the Bible thinking about. This is how it's spontaneous. They read slowly and deliberately. Sometimes you can read past, you know, a whole books and no real engagement, nothing really much at stake. But here there's a lot at stake. So we're reading slowly, deliberately, and we're wondering what it means. Right? We're very interested in knowing more. And so this revelation, this series of visions is the catalyst for making changes in that passage. Before we get into the verses themselves, can you give us, can we just back up a little bit? It's February of 1832. Can you give us just a little background? Yeah, it's been almost two years since the church was organized in

New York. And then at the end of that year Joseph is commanded to leave New York with all of the saints in New York and gather to Ohio. So he and Emma have moved to Northeastern Ohio. And one of the converts there is Sidney Rigdon, Sidney and Phoebe Rigdon. Sidney had been a very influential minister in a reformed Baptist tradition. He and like-minded people are looking forward to, they'll even sometimes use the word restoration. to, they'll even sometimes use the word restoration. A restoration of Christianity, their careful readers of the Bible, they believe in faith in Christ, repentance and baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. And when the Book of Mormon comes through and the missionaries say, you're right there

and just add to that the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and you're most of the way home, they recognize that this is what they've been looking for. Sydney Rigden reads the book of Mormon carefully for a couple of weeks and comes to the conclusion there's no possible way a mortal person wrote that, at least not one in the 19th century. It is God's work and he decides to forsake his ministry. His congregation had just built him a house. And so he's homeless because he embraces him. That's something we haven't mentioned.

He says something to his wife, right? Are you ready to go into poverty for this? And she says yes She really is a lovely Faithful Christian right? I've counted the cost. She says I know what we're in for and I'm I'm all in and That made it possible for him to be all in and and he becomes a major asset Right, he immediately travels to New York and meets Joseph Smith. And there, the Lord gives section 35 of the doctrine comes, which calls Sydney to be a scribe, to help Joseph Smith in this project of reading the Bible very carefully and closely and making substantial revisions to it.

And so here we are now, almost a couple of years later, they've moved back to Ohio and they've moved south, about 35 miles south of where Sydney, Reagan was living and where Joseph and Emma found short-term housing when they arrived. They've been invited to live with Alice or Elsa and John Johnson in their home. They have a lovely home. The large family that's mostly grown up now. And so they've got some space and they invite Joseph and Emma to bring their twins and come and live with them. And Sydney moves down and lives in a home next door. And this is to make it possible for them to have time and space to really go to work on their revision of the Bible. So that's where they're living and that's the setting here. You may know the wonderful story of Sister Johnson. She's the one who's rheumatic arm. She has rheumatism in her arm and several of the members of this

Campbellite Church, it's sometimes called because the main leader of it is Alexander Campbell, his father before him. And so these Campbellites or disciples are some of the ones who are most interested in and likely to convert when they hear the restored gospel. And a group of them and others visit Joseph Smith, and that includes Sister Johnson, and they raise the question in that meeting. Here's Sister Johnson, is God given anyone power on earth today, like the ancient apostles had to heal the sick. And while that conversation is going on, Joseph walks across the room, gives her a healing blessing, and she is miraculously healed, and they all know it. One of our very best sources for this is a book about the disciples of Christ in the Western Reserve, that is the Sari of Northeastern Ohio. In it, it says, there's no way around it. She was healed. She was sick, and now she's not. And it says it was the mental and moral shock

produced on her system by Joseph Smith's audacity to did it. So the fact of the matter is she was healed, and then the interpretation is up to you. You can decide. I decide it was the power of God that was manifest through Joseph Smith. So that's the setting, no wonder, Sister Johnson and brother John Johnson are wanting Joseph and Emma to come and live with them. They wanna foster the rest of the race

and best they can. They can help by providing some housing and some offset some costs and that'll buy Joseph some time to do the Lord's work. And it's in their home, we think, we're nearly certain. It's in their home where Joseph, we know that's where he receives many revelations and that's where section 76 comes. This is when we wish we had a magic school bus, right? And we'd load all the people listening on the bus. And go to the Johnson home and sit in that room and feel

as people have felt. I've felt you've felt feel the power that comes from from realizing this is a place of revelation. Some of the greatest revelations of the restoration were given there. First time that I was I ever got to visit there I was like I think I was in Cleveland at a youth conference and we took a quick break and drove down there. And the missionaries, senior couple told me that there was a couple of women who were there who weren't members of the church and they were spending some time with them. And I was with that group,

and we walked into the room, one of these women looked at her friend and then looked at the missionary and said, whoa, what happened in here? And I was just like, wow, there's a sensitive soul right there because she knows something happened here in this place.

And you know, the light is coming through the windows, it's beautiful. And yeah, it's one of those places, you just wanna sit there and soak it in for a while. I hope everybody has a chance to go. The church has done a really wonderful job of restoring it to. It's as close as you can get to walking into Joseph Smith's world. Yeah, well put. And it's not a city. It's a home out there in farmland. It's very...there's corn. It's very beautiful. And the the famous tar and feathering has yet to occur

out there, right? But it's there. One month away. One month away about about five weeks away till they're going to drag Joseph out of that house. And it's the antagonistic wing whose you know, siblings and neighbors have converted to the restored gospel and they're pretty upset With Joseph and they break in and drag him out of the house and drag Sydney out of the house next door beat them soundly Cover them in hot pine tar that's laced with acid and then Break feather pillow over their head to finish the humiliation. And that's going to happen a month right after this.

Yeah, 24th of March, and the visions are on the 16th of February. So you might think of, in some ways, the price Joes of Pays and Sydney Pays for receiving this revelation and the others, right? The price they pay for restoring the gospel is tar and feathers, beating, being hated by neighbors. And Ezra Booth has a lot to do with this. Yep, he is a Methodist minister who has converted, then he watched Elsa Johnson be healed. He knows she was healed. Right there. He watched Elsa Johnson be healed. He knows she was healed. He was healed by the power of God. And then he went with Joseph all the way to Missouri and back.

And he decided that Joseph is a real person. And therefore, no profit. People do that even today, but I don't understand that way of reasoning. Where in the scriptures are we told that prophets aren't real people? We've got a hundred stories in the scriptures that prophets are real people who do real stuff, make mistakes, have body odors, etc., etc. And booth for some reason decides, Joseph Smith's just not not prophetic enough, whatever bar that is, whatever standard that is. So he bails out and he and Simon's writer and others then really antagonize the saints and Joseph, especially including violence on Joseph's person. We haven't talked about Simon's yet. Do you want

to just give us a little bit on Simon's writer before we move? He's another one of these disciples who converts and then it's really short-lived. Some sources say one reason he gives for his defection is that Joseph misspels his name in a revelation. And if Joseph had to be held to that standard, if all prophets had to be spelling be champs, I don't know how many we'd really have over the course of history, that's not one of the criteria being a prophet. That's,'d really have over the course of history. That's not one of the criteria being a profit That's you just have to be called by God. I mean we might as well talk about this for a second Steve

Because where do we get these these assumptions about profits like some people they should never get sick They should probably win the lottery every time. I mean where's the line? I Call it hypothetical history Where's the line? I call it hypothetical history. That's where we decide what the past should be like based on nothing more than our imagination. If he's a prophet, then he will always be nice to everybody. If he's a prophet, then, and those things are not evidenced anywhere. There's no scriptures that say them. There's no reason to believe them, except we just decide that they should be true. They're just our imagination. That's a terrible, terrible way to do history because when you see the evidence, it's going to upset your hypothetical version of what the past should be like.

So those kinds of assumptions are subtle and dangerous. They're not real. They have no basis in reality or what actually was. The scriptures tell us that truth is things as they actually were and will be an art of come. And that's what we ought to study, right? Our scriptures are clear full of stories of prophets who are real people who God called and they worked with them and they struggled and faltered and he worked with them and they accomplished his work miraculously because they were mere mortals who allied with him and overcame and never did in this life become perfect but who

were called by God. That's the accurate historical view of what a prophet is. Any assumptions to the contrary are poorly founded and are going to be this rough? You said once in our earlier interview, I'm trying to remember the exact phrase, but if your faith is based on bad expectations, it will easily be overturned. Well, that was Ezra Booth, right? He went to Missouri and went, this doesn't look like any promised land thing, and then saw Joseph Smith's humanness, and maybe was converted to some degree by a sign, which isn't that can maybe open your heart but then you've got to get the real thing and Steve I was just gonna say this happens a lot today to our students and to others who have some version in their head and

Maybe they say I got it from primary. I got it from seminary I got it from you know I had this version in my head and then I read the actual history and it does it does it's not as disney land as it as I thought it was and so I'm out. But what you're saying is change your expectations, analyze those assumptions. make them real instead of hypothetical. It frankly, it comes in my opinion of having been somewhat lazy to begin with and then all of a sudden paying attention and being jarred by that transition, right? If you've been paying attention all along, it's not so shocking to find out that things aren't what you,

what you thought, and I'm also sometimes frustrated When people blame them or the church, right? Well, they didn't tell me this or they that one of the Principles as you know of come follow me is you are responsible for your own gospel learning You find you work hard to seek the truth. Don't blame someone else. Don't blame your seminary teacher. Now, if I were talking out of the other side of my mouth, I'd be wanting religion professors like me and seminary teachers to make darn sure they teach the truth and love by the power of the Holy Ghost. So I'm not trying to skirt that obligation, but

every person is ultimately responsible to seek and discern the truth for themselves. And it frustrates me when people blame the church as if there's supposed to be an ultra-regulation on primary lessons, right? There's somebody from correlations sent to sit in on every primary class to make sure nothing devious gets taught there. That's just unrealistic expectations. And the Lord has placed the expectation on us to seek learning by study and by faith, out of the best books. And if we don't do that, I don't think we can fault anybody else for not doing it for us.

I think that President Nelson's emphasis on here him, on learning to hear the Lord. He's not saying even here me, he's saying here the Lord, get your own inspiration and learn to hear him. I love that emphasis. And also the phrase that I think President Nelson has used the continuous restoration. And this is this whole thing as part of that. This is a huge example of the Lord wants to give us more this whole section. And we don't want anybody we don't want anybody to be discouraged. It's a good time right now to say, you know what, I'm gonna learn. What is that Steve Harper book? Let me look that up. I'm gonna go, I wanna learn, right?

It's a good time today, whoever's listening to us right now to say, well, I wanna become, I wanna know this kind of stuff because I'll tell you, the books have been written. Yeah. There is, there is plenty of them out there. Have we ever had an easier time? Have we ever had more resources at our fingertips with our phones in our hands? I mean, this is an incredible time to live.

And I think Hank probably three or four times we have heard some of our wonderful guests say something like, it's not that you know too much church histories that you don't know enough. You know, you took one thing and you didn't, you didn't say, now wait a minute, I got to learn the rest, I want to know the context. Who is there? What they say. And that's why I love this.

We're trying to get as much as we can. Yeah. That's really well said, I think. All right, Steve. I think I, do you feel like we're ready to get into the revelation? Is there anything else we need to know about sure the players involved? The Lord. Yeah, it's the most important one. So let's let's let's say what he has to say the first 10 verses are an introduction. I don't know exactly the nature of it. It might be a kind of a composition by Joseph Smith or Cindy Rrigdon or both. Maybe it's revealed to them.

Hard to say for sure, but it's certainly a prologue to the visions that are coming. So it's a very beautiful passage. The Lord, his first person voice is there, beginning from verse 5 on. Let's notice this then. Let's notice that the first four verses are a kind of a prologue. Probably appended afterwards, kind of attached as an intro. Say, you guys got a really listen to this. Hear this. This is the coolest stuff you're ever going to hear. And then we transition at verse 5 into the Lord's first person voice. Maybe we ought to read at least part of that 5 through 10.

For thus say, the Lord, I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth and to the end. Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. And to them will I reveal all mysteries, ye all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old and for ages to come. Will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom? This is really beautiful stuff. Yeah, notice what it's telling us about the nature of God, right? The very first thing he tells us is I'm merciful. I'm gracious. Anybody who shows any sort of love for me, I

Delight to honor them. I'll give you all the mysteries and all the glory you can imagine and more. It's a it's a really Wonderful disclosure and remember that it's coming in the context. It hasn't been very long since the Reverend Jonathan Edwards, the Most influential preacher in American history has said, God of whores you. He hates your guts. He's dangling you over the pit of hell like a spider on a web, and any minute now, it might sever and you'll be dropped into the abyss. That's the flavor of preaching that is characteristic. Wow. And I don't mean to say that's all there is besides this, but but everybody in this who lives in this world of 1832, America knows that that's

one version of God that's pretty pervasive and dominant. So listen to the Lord, restore who he is. I am merciful and gracious. Just that first introduction of Himself is very significant. It's important. It didn't Joseph Smith teach in order to worship God. You must know what He's like. You must know His personality. You got to know His traits.

Okay, 8, 9, and 10. Okay, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations, and their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven, and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to not.

For by my spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will? Yay, even those things which I has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man. So what we have here is a loving God, a merciful and gracious God who delights to give us more. Right?

There's a whole lot more, he says here in verses five through 10. I've got more to give to you and buckle up because we're going to graduate school here in so-tereological thinking. That is, plans of salvation are more complex and more beautiful, more vast than you've ever imagined before and I want to give them to you. So a terrific prologue. Notice that verse 11, we transition back to the voice of the visionaries now, the voices of the visionaries. So we're listening lots of times throughout this section to Joseph Smith and Sydney report what they see. This is characteristic of sections of the doctrine

comes that are reporting on visions. They're really two that are like this, section 76 and section 138. And as you know, 138 is a series of visions, Joseph F. Smith experienced in the last month or so of his life, where he looked into the world of the spirits of the dead, and saw a variety of things there, and then commented on what he described what he saw and then commented on what he saw, and then has the Lord also comments on what he sees.

So this, the composition of 76 and 138 are different because they are reports of visions by visionaries with commentary from them. And as we've just seen commentary from the Lord. So we ought to look for those kind of markers that tell us who we're hearing from and what the nature of their, us is. We also want to now be really mindful of the answer to the question that evoked this revelation the first place, Joseph, is asking what is the nature of the resurrection of the just and what's the nature of the resurrection

of the wicked. And if we pay careful attention, we will notice that there clearly is a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the wicked, but in between them, there is a whole bunch else that it's instead of the black and white understanding that we start the revelation with when we're done the Lord has restored an immense amount of more complex Salvation So it's very useful to pay attention to that from the beginning All right, so verse 11 we hear from Joseph Smith and Cindy Riggand. They tell us this revelation narrates itself, right? most of the

revelations in the doctrine, come in, are you joining the middle of a conversation that's already underway? And it's easy to be lost. You just thus say if the Lord any answers a question, you weren't necessarily there for the question, and you're lost unless somebody explains it to you, not this one. In this one, they tell us when they were, where they were, what they were thinking about, what they were doing, so they narrate the vision for us itself, and they begin with this spectacular testimony of what happens when you read your scriptures carefully and marvel about what they mean and wonder and meditate and seek and then receive

Revelation. So at verse 20 they begin telling us what they saw and the first thing they saw is the greatest thing of all. So we read 20 through 24 We be held the glory of the Son on the right hand of the Father and received of His fullness and saw the holy angels and them who are sanctified before His throne, worshipping God and the Lamb who worship Him forever and ever and now. After the many testimonies which have been given of Him, this is the testimony last of all which we give of Him, that He lives. For we saw Him, even on the right hand of God, and we heard the voice bearing record that He is the only begotten of the Father that by him and through him and of him the

worlds are and were created and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. Man, that's pretty good, isn't it? It's just that's the pen of heaven, you know, even just the cadence is nice. It is very beautiful. And this may very well be Rigden Sidney's composition. I don't know. Nobody knows for sure. But Rigden has much more of that gift than Joseph does. So I don't mean to be definitive about that.

I don't know. But as we'll see, the Lord tells them several times write that down before you lose the spirit of it. And they certainly wrote a beautiful piece here. Notice the several things. First of all, it's we bear this witness. And then notice how sensory it is. We heard, we saw, we we felt this is a witness that's unimpeachable. You've got two visionaries Seeing this and you can reject it, but you cannot refute it This is a powerful piece of testimony Some people might be somewhat confused by this is the testimony last of all

Which we give of them they might hear that as if it was chronological as if they're done. They're never going to bear their testimony again. What they mean there is not chronological. They mean sort of ultimate. This is the ultimate testimony we give of him. He lives. We saw him. He is God's son. We saw them standing right next to each other. Not long ago, I watched a little clip from a new website that is a very polite new site that is antagonistic to the restored gospel. So it's a new way to go about refuting the restored gospel and that is by doing it with love and all sincerity. So the people running this site are trying a new approach but the little video they were doing was has anybody ever seen God and they said no, the Bible clearly says that nobody's seen God in the

gospel of John. And they knew very well that Exodus and other places said Moses saw God face to face. So they spun that and they said, well, it's poetic. It's euphemistic, right? That's how they did it in the old days. Isaiah? Isaiah and I saw the Lord. I mean, that's the exact phrase.

I saw the Lord. Yeah, but their interpretation of that was, but it's poetic. Isaiah also said he saw all kinds of things that don't exist and therefore, but I sat there waiting for them to say, what do we do with the book of Acts? Where Steven sees the Father and the Son on his right hand

and they avoided that one. Yeah, all right. A little harder to explain that one away. And that is the same testimony that Joseph and Sidney bear right here. We saw Christ on the right hand of God. He is God's only begotten Son. He is the creator of worlds without end and the inhabitants of those worlds are God's sons and daughters.

That is the ultimate testimony. And it's really a beautiful thing to have here. We've mentioned this before, John, but I think it's the fact that there's two people, a shared vision. Sid, he's going to be the same way, isn't he, Steve? He's going to end up leaving, become distance from the church,

but he believes this till the end, what he saw. Oh, absolutely. He does. He'll actually use this to make his case when he is making a claim to be the next leader of the church after Joseph. He'll say, it should be me by virtue of me being the shared visionary of the heavenly glorious, right?

He makes other points too, but this is one of his main points. So he always will believe it. There's no reason to deny it. Notice the juxtaposition, right? What happens next, in other words, is we go from a vision of God in Christ to a vision of the fallen angel, Lucifer, perdition. It's a sad and a jarring reversal. And it's meant to be, right? We're meant to have the ultimate testimony, pick us up, and then a really depressing view of what happened in heaven after that. So starting in 25 or so, and we go down through 35 or so, 37, 38, and this is the saddest part of this whole thing. This is the vision of the fall of Lucifer and of those who followed after him.

They become perdition, meaning lost, forever lost. That's the saddest word in the whole doctrine of covenants, perdition, in verse 26. He was called perdition for the heavens wept over him. You guys are both parents. We have hard enough time when our kids are in trouble or hurt, and we really, really struggle when they stray from their covenants or something. This is the feeling that you have when there is no hope, no hope for them. Tradition. That's what that word means. Gone, utterly, completely lost. I mean, that's the saddest part is you have this option ahead of you and you turned it down and you chose a different path. Chose it knowingly too, right? It's not an ignorant choice, not a need-jerk reaction.

It's truly sad. This is the saddest part of the whole revelation. You would remember this, Steve, but Joseph Smith, there's a statement from him who says, to comprehend God, you must go to the highest of highs and into the darkest abyss. And that feels like this, this section. This is the darkest abyss. He has seen into the darkest abyss, and it is depressing.

Look at verse 34, concerning the followers of Satan in the pre-mortal realm. There is no forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come. That's utterly lost. Now, people might say, well, that's harsh of God. Well, it's not God doing it. It's Satan and his followers doing it. They had a choice to make. I guess God could force them, but that's not who he is.

Our children don't like it when we get, when we force them. I don't like it. My parents never forced me to do anything, but I wouldn't have liked it if they did. I would have rebelled and resisted. So God is loving. He's merciful. He's generous as we've already seen. He would save them if they wanted him to. They don't. That's the point. That's why he's weeping. That's why it's so sad. My daughter asked me once, she's just thinking about, you know, we talk about outer darkness and she said, why would anybody,

I mean, why would God send anyone there? And I'm going, God doesn't send anyone there. They choose it. They look at him and say, I want to be as far away from you as possible. Right? Send me to that place where I am not close to you. And she said, oh, you know, it just broke her heart. Why would anyone choose that? Why would anyone choose that? I said, I don't know. I don't know. It can be hard to understand.

I don't pretend to understand it. But there is this common thinking that if Socrates and others, if you know the good, you'll do the good. It's an assumption about an optimistic assumption about human nature. Well, human nature doesn't bear it out. It's not true. There are people who know the good and who don't want the good. They know God and they don't want anything to do with them. And that's how it is and heaven weeps because of it. Please join us for part two of this podcast. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background,