Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 76 Part 2 : Dr. Steven C. Harper

Episode Date: July 4, 2021

Dr. Harper returns with Hank and John to discuss how Section 76 elaborates when Paul says that we can be “joint-heirs with Christ.” We hear Dr. Harper share why he reveres Joseph Smith and what Dr. Harper feels are Joseph’s greatest gifts. Join us with one of the Church’s foremost historians to  discuss one of the most profound revelations of this dispensation.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel

Welcome to part 2 of this week's podcast. Verse 39 can be confusing. I remember a Sunday school lesson years and years ago where there's quite a discussion about verse 39 and what it meant. It says verse 39, all the rest should be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, the triumph of the glory of the Lamb who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. So I guess the important distinction to make here is those who follow Satan in the beginning, those who never do become embodied, are never resurrected, but everyone else is resurrected. So here is one of the first distinctions, right? There's a resurrection of everyone who's ever embodied

and there's no resurrection for those who never are embodied. So remembering that we're trying to chart the answer to Joseph's question, what is the difference in the resurrection of the just and the unjust? Here's a first installment. Here's a first part of an answer to that. Everyone else is brought forth, verse 39 says, through the by the resurrection of the dead through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. And then you hear Joseph and Sidney say, this is the gospel to glad tidings. That is good news. So you asked a bit ago about universalism. In a sense, you remember

Alma and the book of Mormon, a resurrection at all is a form of salvation. So there is a universal salvation for anybody who was ever embodied in the first place, they will come forth in a resurrection, almost all of them a Resurrection to glory. Okay Let's notice the testimony in verse 41 as you both know John Hilton has been doing some really important work Drawing our attention to the fact that the Scriptures are pervasive and the teachings of the prophets, that Jesus was crucified for the world, to bear the sins of the world. And that's verse 41 is one of the most powerful testimonies of that. He came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world and to bear the sins of the world and to sanctify the world and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness. We don't want to overreact

against Protestantism, Catholicism, and become the Christians who don't believe in the crucifixion of Christ. And sometimes we're at risk of doing that just because of cultural shifts, nothing that our scriptures say. Let's pay particular attention to the fact that our scriptures right here say, let's pay particular attention to the fact that our scriptures right here emphatically declare that Jesus Christ was crucified for the sins of the world and to cleanse it from unrighteousness. So that all through him, again verse 42, notice the word all. Notice how conspicuously that word shows up throughout this revelation. It tells us that salvation is pretty close to being universal. Okay. With exceptions, but all through him might be saved, whom the Father had made put into his power.

I'm loving this. I would recommend everybody go back and listen to our interview with Dr. Hilton. We did one's over Easter and he is just fantastic in the way he says, we love Gesemini. We love Gesemini, but we can't love Gesemini to the point that we don't talk about Calvary. Calvary is kind of a, oh yeah, that happened too. The crucifixion is what comes up over and over and over in Scripture, and we should notice that. Indeed. I was just going to say, I just, 40 and 41 are a really nice kind of summary statement. This is the gospel. This is the glad tidings that Jesus came to be crucified for the sins of the world, to bear the sins of the world, to sanctify the world, and cleanse it from all in righteousness. That is glad tidings, that is great news. And so I like when the scriptures kind of do a little

concise, here's the point. Yeah, very well said. His atonement is the means to the end that through him all might be saved, whom the Father has made. 43 continues, and again the word all jumps off the page to our attention. Jesus glorifies the Father and saves all the works of His hands except the sons of tradition who denied the son after the Father has revealed it. So again, salvation is nearly universal. Well, we might ask, well, why doesn't he save everyone? Why doesn't he save those, those few who as present-packer put it defect to tradition and present-packer was drawing our attention to the fact that it's an act of agency. God would save them if they wanted to be saved. Right? If there was one shred of them, one particle of them that wanted his salvation, he has a plan for that and he has a Christ who's capable of it

So the fact that they're not saved is because he revealed the plan to them and they did not want it Yeah, right just to Steve is only righteous this if it's chosen Right, that's the whole chosen that's the it by definition right if I force someone into righteousness That's not righteousness. That's that's slavery. That's that's force Now Steve if there's any moms and dads listening here saying oh, that's my son or daughter. I would say be be careful there, right? Yeah, this is a pretty high level of the father has to reveal the son to them and then go against it. And this kind of gets to the the idea of what is the unpardonable sin. And the the Joseph Smith statement is that what you're you guys are thinking. Yeah, well, I just don't want anyone to get discouraged here thinking this

is their child that is choosing not to be saved. There's the Lord is going to give ample opportunity. Right. Yeah, President Packer wasphatic about that as well, right? This is relatively few. It's a tiny number of people relatively speaking. And none of our sons and daughters, I don't think anybody we know probably is at this threshold. I don't know exactly where to drive the line. But the line is way far out there, a lot farther than we have fathomed. Notice the emphasis, another way to say what we're saying is to notice the emphasis of 44, wherefore he saves all except them. The point he wants us to take away is he's going to save

just about everybody, unless they absolutely look him in the face and say, I don't want it. And even that is not that sort of, you know, when your kids are to find what they really want is a great big hug, but they're, they're calling you names and, and stuff. That's not who we're talking about here either. Those aren't tradition. That's right. They're, they're, they're the ones that the Lord will wrap his arms around and say Come on. Yeah, that's that's in maturity. That's emotional in maturity and it it happens in

This home a little bit some from my children and some from their father None from their mother. I love that high percentage word there of all. That makes me happy. So this is flying in the face of everything in that current culture and theology that he's going to save all. And then there's some very few exceptions. You can hear the Lord in conversation with that theology unit, with that world, with that culture. Is is almost universal damn nation the case or

is universal salvation the case and the Lord keeps telling us here in these early verses, almost universal salvation is the case and the only ones who will not get it are those who exercise their agency to opt out knowing thoroughly and fully well what it is that That they're choosing pretty hard for us to wrap our heads around why that would happen But but that's the exception there Steve is is God too merciful to some is that why is? Is it I know I don't want everyone to be saved. Is it the parable of the laborers and the vineyard?

I don't want, they don't deserve it. Yeah, I've had that response before, but it's always because I don't understand. When I interpret the parables and put myself, I'm the good son and the parable that we have decided to call the prodigal son. That's not what the scriptures call it. Whenever I put myself in the wrong position, I think God's too merciful. Whenever I understand how it really is, I am the prodigal. When I really understand how things are, I want the most maximum mercy possible.

Would some people in Joseph Smith say, day, say, I, I don't like this vision because your God is too merciful? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It goes too far. That was, that was a common response. That's, that's just too far. I mean, you know, and you'll, sometimes your laterally saints do to say this, we sometimes Misunderstand even gelical Christians and we think oh my gosh all they have to do is say some trite prayer that they accept Jesus And then they're all in the kingdom and not us. We have to bake bread for widows and our merit badges and and all that and and You know, we we don't understand brothers and sisters very well. We're really not that far apart,

and this revelation is emphasizing to us that loving heavenly parents created us because they wanted to save us. They're creating us in right now, as we might say it, they want us to inherit all they have. And they are mighty to save, right? They are capable of saving every single last one of their children. The infinite atonement of Jesus Christ can do that, so why will some not be saved? Because they're the ones making that choice. Steve, this is wonderful.

Honestly, absolutely wonderful. It's interesting to me that that we I've seen this in Latter-day Saints today, even you know those on Twitter if I say something like God loves all of his children. Well, hold on. God, you know, God's, and I'm like, God doesn't mean he can bless all of his children because they don't, you know, God's, and I'm like, God, doesn't mean he can bless all of his children because they don't, you know, that every blessing is a tie to a commandment, but God loves all of his children. No, well, you're going a little far there.

I don't know, it's like, come on. He delights in this. Yeah, what was that elder Paul? And surely the thing God loves most about being God is the thrill of being merciful. We get parable of the the labors and the vineyard at that point, but wait a minute, you haven't done nearly as much work as I have and so it seems wrong to us to be so merciful. My dad joined the church when he was 24 and if you wanted to make a mad, just say something like, oh, you got to do all

this before, um, which he didn't, he was a good boy. But as if wickedness was happiness, but I just think it's interesting when we suddenly become deciding what's fair and what's not. When the greatest unfairness ever was the Savior's sacrifice for us as Elder Rennlin just gave that talk, you know. So I should have bothered us if that's the labor in the vineyard. Are you envious because I'm generous? What? And what's interesting is you get exactly what you expected to get.

Like the Lord in the parable, this is Matthew chapter 18, I think it is, or Matthew 20, one of the other. And the Lord says, you got exactly what you, we agreed to. It's yours. What is the problem? And it's, that goes back to President Benson's great talk on pride. I don't want to the celestial kingdom. I want the celestial kingdom because I can look down on a bunch of other people. I want more than the next guy. Yeah, I want more.

And you know what I love about that, to bring in a quick book of Mormon reference. I love to kind of look at the parable of the laborers and the vineyard. And then, you know, Alma and Ammon, when the brother and I'll get back together and it's like, my joy was even more because of the joy of my brother. And there's, there wasn't that oh man You guys did better than I did you know and Is it is it the older we get we the more merciful we want God to be just because we start to I don't know I realized for me personally the older I get the more I'm grateful for his mercy

I For me personally the older I get the more I'm grateful for his mercy. I Think so and you just kind of cut people slack and think you know they're doing the best they can and I don't know if it's a function of older Joseph Smith as you know taught to the Relief Society in 1842 said the nearer We come to our Heavenly Father the more merciful we are the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls. But that's interesting to me, Steve, that the people of Joseph Smith's day would not go, this is awesome, right? I love how merciful God is. Instead, oh, what did you say? The saints fly to flight of pieces? Is that what he said? Flight of pieces like that. There are some of them who are inclined to universalism the nights do.

So there are some of them who do. And Joseph's dad likes the universalist streak. Okay, so there's the next chunk of the revelation addresses another thing that's in the air and that is speculation about the nature of hell and punishment. So the Lord essentially says, your guy's speculation is all nonsense. None of you have any idea what you're talking about. And I'm not going to tell you, right? So Joseph after this will write a letter to the Saints in Missouri. So it's a brother, Birkitt, that that stuff he's teaching in, you know, Korra meeting or whatever. It's nonsense. He has no idea what's going on.

So the Lord, I can see it here. It was not, it neither was it revealed. Neither is. Neither will be. So we still don't know exactly the nature of punishment, right? Thinking all the way back to section 19, the Lord says, look, I use the words eternal punishment, but don't think that you necessarily understand what I mean by that. It can mean more than you might think. I'm so glad I had these verses because students will sometimes ask, you know, what's hell like? Well, you know, I don't want to, and it's like, well, the Lord's like, just stop, right? There's almost a, don't ask, I'm not going to tell you.

Yeah, how long it lasts, how hot it is, those things that were the subject of many, many sermons in Joseph's day here, the Lord says, you really don't know. And not telling you that stuff. Sometimes I give you a little glimpse of it. But then I shut it up again verse 47 says in 48 says, you really don't know how wide, high, deep, how much the misery is. You really can't understand it unless you actually end up there. So don't speculate. Think you can fathom it. And then 49 is write this down. Guys, this is really spectacular stuff. I used to think that they would stop at this point and write it all down and then envision some more. And that is a live possibility.

But it is the case that the earliest manuscript we have of this vision is the very first entry in what we call Revelation book two. They went and bought a new book. They had just sent Revelation book one to Missouri for printing. So they're in Ohio and they go out and buy a new book and put this revelation in it. And so it might be that these repeated verses like 49 are the

Lord saying, guys, before this, you know, evaporates from your minds, get a book and write it down. So both of those are live possibilities for how it gets recorded. Steve, can I just jump in? I have felt this before. How about both of you that when I have something divine happen to me, I have that, there's that prompting, write it down. It reminds me of present-iring, his talk, right? The Lord said, I'm not giving these experiences just for you. Write them down, write them down. And I have noticed in my personal life,

and I would love to hear from both of you, that if I do write them down, it's almost as if I'm showing the Lord I'm serious, and I want more. I'm not a journal keeper of like epic proportions. I got to say that, but when something happens to me that I know is clearly the hand of God, I have a little, just even a little note on my phone that I say, I'm going to make a couple of notes here about this because I want the, I don't know, write it down. It's important. I think that, President Eiring, you referred to that talk and I think we're talking about the same talk and I won't get the words right, but we're talking about the same talk and I won't get the words right but it was a oh a paradigm shift for me I thought a journal was I went on this trip and I won

this trophy and he was like document the hand of God in your life it was a totally different reason and it dawned on me you know that's kind of a lot of what the scriptures are it's people documenting the hand of God in their life and putting their testimony down so you guys have made me feel a little better. I'm the world's worst journal key. And you're a historian. Joseph. Yeah. Well, I do believe that everyone else should keep a journal. So you can study it. And you can. But Joseph Smith was not too far on the list above me. He started a journal in November of 1832. It's not started yet at the time of section 76 and it was only after the Lord

really got on him in section 85 for the second time until you got to keep a record. So we bought a journal He wrote in it dutifully for 10 days then equipped with 10 months and wrote in it, dutifully, for 10 days, then equipped for 10 months. And it was on and off like that, for the rest of his life. We have about 1,500 plus pages of his journals, but only about 30 or 35 of them, I think, 33 are in his hand. And when they are, they're about the role of God, the hand of God in his life.

When they're not, it's his clerk saying today he read this or went there or had this meeting. So even bad journal keepers like me can obey the instruction we receive from our prophets and from the Lord to keep a record in which people will be able to see the evidence of God's hand. Imagine what would have happened if they had not obeyed the command to write this vision. We wouldn't be sitting here today talking about the good news of the restoration. I think one reason is, and this might be a silly example. I looked into a new car the other day called the Honda Cross Tour.

I'd never even seen it before, right? I'd never seen a Honda Cross Tour before, but I was like, hey, that's a good looking car. I like that car. Maybe I'll buy one. I looked on KS on the classified and said, oh, what a, and then I started seeing that car everywhere. I had never that car everywhere.

I had never seen it before. And yet there it is in that intersection and that parking lot. And there it is there again. There's something about when you're recording things, you have a, I don't know, your mind is looking for them. You're paying attention to them. They've been there the whole time. All right. It's not like everybody just started buying cross-doors. Unless, of course, they were like, well, hang on a second. He's a trend-setter, right? He's interested. We're all going to be interested. I started to see it more. And I think that's one of the reasons I think the Lord says, write these things down, because then you're going to see more of it.

And, you know, it's there. It's already there. The hand of God is already around you, but you're just not seeing it, because perhaps you're not writing it down. You're not taking notice. Anyway, we can, thanks for letting me stop there on verse 49, right the vision. You bet, verse 50 tells us, okay, now we're gonna launch into the resurrection of the just.

This was Joseph's question. Lord, help me understand the difference between the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Is it that simple? Where is there more complexity to it? Is there more layers, more levels? Joseph and Sidney said, we're going to bear a record now of what we saw and heard. The Lord show us about the resurrection of the just. And so, it's a good exercise to do with students here to have them pay close attention

and see when we transition to the resurrection of the unjust. And what we notice is there's not a clear line. There's not a black and white line that is we go from here to a variety of kinds of resurrection. Some of the more just, some of the less just and some of the unjust. And that's how section 76 complexifies or complicates heaven. I don't mean those in negative terms. This diversity of heaven, let's use that word since it's a better word. There is a heaven beyond heaven. There are more levels of heaven than we've thought. By the time we're done reading the revelation, we almost have the idea that there are as many heavens as there are people to inhabit

the heavens. And we simplify it in a celestial heaven, a terrestrial heaven, a celestial, but even as we read along, there are reasons to think that it's even more complex or diverse than that. There appears to be plenty of room. When I look up in the night sky, it looks like there's a lot of space. So verse 50 starts the conversation of the vision, the description of the resurrection of the just. These are the ones who received the testimony of Christ. They're those who are baptized with Him, baptized in His, His, the image of His burial, the

manner of His burial, it says, buried in the water in His name. These are people who live, making and keep covenants. I, my family has very short come follow me discussions usually and they're usually pretty one sided. And the other day while we were feeding our mouths at the counter, I said, what's the most important thing we will ever do? You pick one word, you can just pick one word. What's the most important thing we will ever do? And my 16 year old son said covenant and he was right. The most important thing any of us will ever do is covenant. And that's what we're reading here. If we could sum

up everything that the people who come forth in the resurrection of the just do, it is that they make and keep covenants. They're not necessarily, if I understand, they're not necessarily superior quality people in any other way, right? They're not smarter than other people, they're not morally superior, they're not necessarily more righteous. They make and keep covenants. Covenants become the guiding determinant of their lives in Christ, and they therefore overcome by faith. They are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth on all those who are just and true. sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth on all those who are just and true.

They become members of the Church of the Firstborn, which the section 88 others will talk about that Church. I'm not sure I have a good handle on what that Church is. This is what he says in, this is doctrine cover 10, 60, 67, Bill, this is my doctrine. Who, so ever, repenteth and comeath unto me, the same is my church. I really like that statement. It's very, it's very, inclusionary. Yeah, and it makes it sound like a group of people that believe one thing versus they get together

in a church. I think what we could say safely, and I don't mean to be too definitive about the church of the first born, it's a mystery to me, but Section 88 weighs in on it too. And what we can notice is that both Section 76 and 88, especially in these passages, are temple related. We're starting to use temple terms and think in temple concepts. We might even think of them as somewhat esoteric, that is sort of teachings and concepts that haven't been fully elaborated by this point in the restoration and that only are elaborated the further and further we go in temple teachings and temple doctrine. So for example, notice the close proximity in both section 76 and section 88 to making and keeping

covenants that are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. I think we could safely say that those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, or the Holy Ghost in its role of being a verifier and a validator of covenant faithfulness, those are the ones who are members of the Church of the Firstborn. It's not the same as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is a heavenly church for those who are faithful to their covenants and who receive all the promise blessings of their covenants. I think we could say that.

Another way to say it is verse 55, they are they into whose hands the Father has given all things. We could read that in terms of temple. You mentioned section 138 already. Do you think 76, I know is received in 1832 and you've got 138 not received until 1918, right? But do you see them as working together? Because some people won't be able to make covenants in this life, right? Yeah, certainly. So I would see these two as in our day in 2021,

we have the blessing of having them both. And so let them kind of work together as in, this is this life for the next. Yeah, certainly we do. With only 76, we don't understand how vast this plan of salvation is and What section 88 we were our minds are blown again when we realize that God is a Spectacular planner for happiness salvation and exaltation

Okay, verses 56 and 7, with their emphasis on priesthood and kings and priests, emphasized to us again that we're talking about temple. Ultimately, we're talking about temple covenants, making and keeping temple covenants and the promises of exaltation that come with them. These folks dwell in the presence of God in His Christ forever and ever. These are the ones that come with Him when He comes again in the clouds of heaven. These are the ones who have part in the first resurrection. So clearly the first resurrection is the resurrection of the just. that's what verse 65 says. I want to know what you would say to someone who, you know,

we have this idea in the church of like, well, celestial kingdom, celestial glory, that's kind of out of my reach. I'm shooting for terrestrial kingdom. And there's nothing in these two columns that I see that says, yeah, you're probably not going to make it. Right. I see a lot of invitations here of repentance, fill your life with the Spirit. You're going to, if you want to be part of this.

Makes me think of the late great scholar, Stephen Robinson. Yeah. Right. And his book, Believing Christ, which begins with the story of his wife who is you know all All Wonderful Latter-day Saint woman in every way who gives up who says I just can't do this. I'm not celestial material and They have a conversation where they realize there's there isn't there's no such thing as celestial material. There's just fallen mortals and perfect people who get to

choose what they want. Right. This is not a list of inherent qualities. This is a list of people who choose one thing over another. You're faced with a choice to covenant or not, to be baptized or not, to keep the baptismal covenant or not, to make and keep the temple covenants or not. It really has very little to do with inherent qualifications. It all depends on an exercise of agency. Gaining the celestial kingdom has nothing to do with being particularly inherently great. It has everything to do with what you really want. Look at verse 69, the people who get the resurrection of the just are imperfect people who were made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. He's the one who did the hard work through

the shedding of his own blood. Our job is just to choose. Choose him. Choose you this day. Verse 52 washed and cleansed from all their sins. That means they had sins to be washed and cleansed from. Absolutely. Right? They're repenting. Yeah. As sinful as other folks, but they just decided they want the blessings that God offers and they opted for them. I really like that idea. It's not a list of qualifications that you're trying to attain, but it's where's your heart? And Stephen Robinson's second book, after leaving Christ, was called Following Christ, and he had a phrase in there that I just loved. He said, the question is not, am I going to make it? The question is, do I want to stay? Which I thought such a good way to put it. and you're your 16 year old son who gave that answer about make a covenant. Yeah, you've made a cut you're in the

covenant. So the question isn't am I gonna make it? The question is do I want to stay that that book blessed me a lot both of those. I remember Dr. I remember Dr. Robinson saying mercy is only mercy if you don't deserve it. The moment you earn it, it's not mercy. It's justice. You earned it. So let God be merciful. Let him give you things you don't deserve. So am I, what I be correct in saying Steve,

that if someone is feeling this section and they're like, oh, I'm just not celestial material. Hey, if you're repenting, if you are sincerely repenting and God has your heart, you are on the right path. You are headed there. Yeah, absolutely. And the way I sometimes talk about it is repent relentlessly. I like that.

It's not that if you repent and then you are flawless from then on out, I don't know anybody like that. So you are a relentless repentor. Somebody who every day, or maybe every other day, or maybe once a year manifests that sincere, sincerity is crucial. You can't fake it. You can't repent if you don't mean to repent. But everybody who sincerely repents and comes to Christ is a candidate for the celestial kingdom. Everybody repents relentlessly. I love that. That's a great phrase. There's the new young women's theme has a phrase in there. I cherish the gift of repentance. And as they have gone around and interviewed young women about their favorite parts, at least Sister Becky Craven said that

That's one that has come up again and again the young women appreciate that phrase I cherish the gift of repentance and I'm glad we're talking about this because it it It can sound like it's this one time thing and then if you sin again, it all comes back and you're your toast To me it sounds to me like most of the scriptures are what we're talking about. You keep repenting every day. You keep you you make course corrections every day. And the fact that the Lord has the sacrament table there every Sunday kind of tells us yeah you're probably going to mess up again. So it's a powerful one. Come on back and we'll do that again.

And we'll do it the next week and we'll do it the next week. Yeah. Yeah, well said. I wish everybody could know Steve Robinson, right? I wish everybody had to read believing Christ and then they got to know him because I love his soul. He's a curmudgeon. He's past now. Wonderful, delightful, but sort of grouchy. Didn't feel well. Very much struggle with some serious health problems and if they could realize that that guy knows very well that he's going to have celestial heaven because that's what he really wants. And then say, yeah, but he's he's not Mr. Rodgers. He's sarcastic or whatever. Then they would really get what he's say in the book. Right. And I feel

when I realize that, I think, well, then I'm going to make it too. I'm going to be all right. Because whatever flaws I have, whatever sins I commit, I am sincere. I love Christ. And I want to love Him better. And I am sincere in my repentance. And those are the criteria that qualify us for him saying, then I will make you perfect. for him saying, then I will make you perfect. I'm going to, I think I'm going to remember repent relentlessly for the rest of my life. Well, if you don't mind an airplane reference, I have airplanes behind me on my desk, but you can't see them. But, but President Ootdor, if I just, I love that idea of an airliner is off course most of the time, but it it relentlessly corrects itself. It's it's it's constantly correcting itself until it touches down on the runway. But it's the whole time the autopilot is fixing that the winds and everything else that's going on so I like that that metaphor and it's it's not a one time course correction it's a daily hourly and minute

will gentlemen notice that we make a transition between verse 69 and 71 from the resurrection of the just and we learned that in verse 70 that these people will be resurrected into celestial bodies People who are made perfect through the atonement of Christ resurrected into celestial bodies And the glory of the Sun is sort of the type for that and then in verse 71 the the visionaries Joseph and senior again Rigden see a terrestrial world. And these are people who are resurrected into terrestrial bodies, and the moon is typical of that.

But what we don't see here is any clear indication that we have stopped talking about the resurrection of the just and are now talking about the resurrection of the unjust. Remember the text in John V that we started with that were curious about said the resurrection of the just, they go to heaven, the resurrection of the unjust, they're condemned. And here we're getting a nuance, a layer, a whole different way of thinking about a resurrection to glory. So this is added. This is all new materials, not even in the Book of Mormon, and the Bible only hints at it. So this wonderful section that follows is restoration of knowledge that was missing

until February of 1832. These are people who die without the law, and this is where, as Hank was saying earlier, Section 138 really helps us because if all we had was 76, we would be led to the conclusion that people who die without knowing the restored gospel and having accepted it are, can do no better than terrestrial heaven. But when we read section 76 in combination with 138, we realize that everyone who ever lived regardless of when they died or can receive all the blessings of celestial heaven. So we can qualify these verses and say, these are people who don't accept the law on either side of death. These are verse 73, these are folks who go to the Spirit prison, the Savior visits and preaches to them there so they can be judged just as if they were living in the

flesh. They received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but they afterwards received it. And I think when we put this in combination with section 138, what we're learning here is, these are people who knew better, who knew they should have received the gospel earlier, who didn't, for one reason or another. I don't know what that threshold is. I was uncomfortable on my mission when one of my companions would, people would reject us at the door and they'd say, you're going to hell then. And I don't know for sure, but I think the threshold is higher than that. I think, I think our loving Heavenly Father will make awfully sure that everybody knows what they can do, what they know the gospel and what they can do with it. And your agency is not fully activated until

you know, until you know. And I'm not sure a couple of kids showing up on your doorstep and making one door approaches is enough knowledge. Yeah, so let's come back to the opening. Verse five, I the Lord am merciful and gracious and delight in this. I want to just tell you as a teenager when I read this, I needed a better definition of the word receive because it didn't sound fair to me. Well, they didn't get it. That's not fair. And receive is choosing to receive, choosing to accept it. Good job. And so I think you use the word accept. And I think if anybody reading it the way I did when I was a teenager, they received it not the testimony of Jesus. Well, what it means is they refused it. They didn't. They refused to accept it. And that helped me make sense of it. I like that inside, John. And in 74, you could replace received not with rejected.

Exactly. It's not that they didn't get a chance. It's that they willfully refused it. They rejected it. Thank you. Yeah. And what they did next was say, you know, I regret that. I should have done better. I'm happy to accept. So these are folks who wanted some, but not all, of the glory that was available to them. And that's exactly what they're going to get. They want some, but all these are good people. Right. These are fine people. I'm not sure that there's nothing in the revelation that indicates that heirs of celestial heaven are somehow superior to these people. It's just tells us that they want celestial heaven, whereas these people really don't. I'm guessing you know people like this.

I do. I know people who are really terrific, wonderful people. And I say, well, would you like all these blessings of the gospel? I say, no, not really. That terrestrial stuff, that sounds great to me. Perfectly content there. Happiness can be. So if I get that, that's all I ever ask.

But I like what you said. People who want, who choose, who, it's not, am I wrong in saying, I don't think anybody's gonna go to the terrestrial kingdom who doesn't want the terrestrial kingdom, right? I don't think anybody's going to go to the terrestrial kingdom who doesn't want the terrestrial kingdom, right? I don't think anybody's going to the celestial kingdom who doesn't want the celestial kingdom. There's a book of Mormon phrase about you would be more miserable to dwell, you know. There's this idea of you're going to go, where you feel comfortable. And happy, as we're talking about where you want, yeah. taught that for sure that same principle. It seems as Latter-day Saints we've moved the line

between heaven and hell to the it's now between the slushed joe kingdom and the terrestrial kingdom. Heaven is the slushed joe kingdom and anything below that could be considered hell. Or you know because I've heard that before. Oh you believe if you know that I'm going to hell. Or, you know, because I've heard that before. Oh, you believe if, you know, that I'm going to hell. That's not this revelation. Now, you don't, you don't find that here. This revelation is about heaven. Yeah. All of the things it talks about are heaven, celestial, terrestrial, celestial, these are heaven. These are degrees of heavenly glory. terrestrial, celestial, these are heaven, these are degrees of heavenly glory. Now all of them. So you could think of perdition as hell and Joseph will teach also that hell is the kind of quality. It's what we put ourselves through when we realize we didn't act as we should have

acted. We didn't exercise our agency in the way we really wish we had. Hell is also a description for that state between death and resurrection, right? Even for the righteous, Section 45 teaches us, they consider it a time of bondage. Yeah, they're damned in a sense. They cannot make progress until the resurrection comes. So there's a state there of hell, but but what this revelation shows us is that there's a whole lot more heaven than there is hell. And in some ways it's a reversal of the notion that we start with where hell is very very big and heaven is very tiny. When we come through section 76 we realize hell is pretty tiny and heaven is not only big but heaven's very tiny. When we come through section 76, we realize hell is pretty tiny and heaven is not only big, but it's quite diverse. Steve, you mentioned at the very beginning

about, and maybe this is a good place to fit this in, maybe not, but you mentioned at the beginning about some can say that we are saved and damned at the same time. It would this be one of those places to say that. So if I'm in the touch of the kingdom, do I think I'm damned or do I think I'm saved? Both, right. You're going to be in heaven. It surpasses understanding the glory of celestial heaven, even surpasses understanding the revelation says. And at the same time I think

will probably be aware that there was more more we could have had if that's what we really wanted. So in that way then we consider it being being damned because there could have been more. And there's an ongoing conversation to which we don't have a good answer about whether there's progression between the kingdoms. Some of your listeners will say, there isn't because so and so said so and others will say, there is because so and so said so. Frankly, it's an unsettled question. We really don't know the answer to that at this point. It makes me think what we've been talking about makes me think of the line from Jonathan Edwards, a great Reverend Edwards Presbyterian minister in the 18th century New England who

used the words God's arbitrary sovereign will. Why will some people go to heaven and some people go to hell because of God's arbitrary sovereign will? And that's not what section 76 is teaching us. These destinations are our choosing. Every child of God had the option of choosing any of them they wanted. And the reason we end up where we do is because of what we wanted, what we chose. It's not arbitrary. God is sovereign, but he uses his sovereign power to put that power to choose and us. We get to decide. I think it's, maybe it's our education system, because I want to get an A, I tried really hard, I got my score back, and I got a C. I really wanted the celestial kingdom, but I got the T-lustial kingdom, and I had, I did my best, and I just didn didn't get it and we've got to throw that out the window

and say these are all choices these are this is what you want this is I just wish if one thing I could if I could help My fellow Latter-day Saints is this idea of the anxiety over I've got to be good enough. I've got to be good enough, I've got to be good enough, and I'm saying just repent enough, right? Just keep repenting, just keep repenting and you're on the right path. Yeah, what we really have to do is want the right thing. What's your desire? What's your desire? What do you love? Do you love me? What is your desire? What do you love? Do you love me?

Jesus asks Peter and Peter sort of you of course idea no, no, I mean it. I'm really asking do you love and and as you know This is in the context of these wonderful fat fish Peter Peter's just caught the biggest catch of his life and those fish are money, right? He's looking it would be like if I was looking at a pile of thousand dollar bills and have a life choice to make, right? I've been called to the full-time ministry of the Savior or I could go fishing and I could make a lot of money. And I just had the biggest jackpot of my life and now I'm having breakfast with the savior and he's saying, Do you love me? Do you love me more than that pile of thousand dollar bills? Yeah, of course I do. No, I mean it. Think about it. I'm serious. Do you love me? Of course I do. Do you love me? Yes. Well then, do the right things, right?

Feed my sheep. Show that you love me. So that's the question do the right things, right? Feed my sheep. Show that you love me. So that's the questions really being asked of us. Not, do you check all the boxes for a celestial error? That, he takes care of that part. He makes us perfect through the shedding of his own blood. The question he's asking us is, do you love me? And Elder Holland says, that's so much more beautifully than I possibly can, but that's the question.

We get to answer that question for ourselves. It comes ringing down through the halls of time, he said. Do you love me? And we get to answer that question every day. I love the symmetry elegance of Peter's three denials and then Jesus giving him a chance to answer. That'll know us. I love these three times and feed my sheep three times and how that he just kind of gave him a chance to reverse course.

And I was going to say that we need the Savior to help us want the right things. I think Joseph Smith talked about the nearer man approaches perfection. The clearer is the greater his enjoyment, tell you, is lost desire for sin. But he says, but we, what is the word? We expect this is a station which no man ever arrived in a moment. And so that's another thing we ask for is for the Lord to help us want the right things. That's part of the grace of the atonement. Absolutely. To actually lose desire for sin and to not want sin but to want the best things.

That's a Mosiah 5, right? The Holy Ghost has, the spirit have brought a mighty change in us. We have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. I used to think, where's the order form for that? How do I sign up for that? And I used to wonder, were they done like forever? And then right after that, King Benjamin gives him a name to put on themselves, and I think, I don't think they were done. I think in that moment, and I think we've all had moments where conference is over, the last day men, and we're so fired up, and that was awesome. And we have no desire to sin, and then we go back to work in school the next day. And we got to lose it again.

Relentless repenter, right. So to sum up, terrestrial errors are the ones who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus. They have it, they just don't endure faithfully in it. They show that it's not what they ultimately really want most. And that's fine. They get what they really want most. And verse 81 sums that part of the vision up. And again, their verse 80, they're told to write that before they forget it, while they're still in the spirit, while they're still clear in their minds. We transition from the terrestrial to the T-lestial kingdom.

In verse 89, the two seers here are seeing the T-lestial heaven, which surpasses all understanding. We have a folk doctrine in the church that we might dispel here. I heard it taught in my youth that Joseph had said that if you could just see the celestial kingdom you'd be willing to kill yourself just to get there. And that's not what he taught. That misses the mark. What he apparently taught according to Wilfred Woodruff, is that it's important for us to fulfill our mission on the earth. It's important for us to have a probation here, at least for many of us. And so God endowed us with fear of death. Even if we know the plan of salvation, None of us are eager to die. We do, just better we can't prevent it, and only folks who

are in utter despair get over that to the point of that extreme. So what Joseph taught is, because we're supposed to finish our mortal probation on the earth, God implanted in us a fear of death. And if we could see what awaits us, that fear would go away. Joseph didn't say the celestial kingdom, he said the other side of the veil, right? If you could see what's beyond this earth, there's nothing very scared, no reason to be scared of death. So we don't want to misstate that. I made a wonderful student cry one day when I said that's a bunch of crap. Don't sugarcoat it. Utterly insensitively.

And I felt bad ever since. And I've wondered if that made me a celestial heir. I'm really glad you brought that up though, because I'm glad you called it a folk doctrine. Yeah, so the terrestrial glory is pretty spectacular compared to the celestial and the celestial is exponentially more spectacular than that. Like the sun is more glorious than the moon and the moon more glorious than the star. So then we launch into a section here where we kind of review. We go back through all three kingdoms again. And the most striking thing about the heirs of the celestial kingdom in this

passage is that God makes them equal, verse 95, equal to him in power and in might and in dominion. Now this is one of the things that is repugnant to most of the rest of Christianity. If the early converts had a hard time with it, this might be one reason why. And there are lots of our Christian sisters and brothers today who will say, oh, I was with you when you said that we were saved through the perfect atonement of Christ that he worked out with the shedding of his own blood. But when you're telling me that he's going to make us equal to God and power might diminish, they just think that is so objectionable because it's blasphemous to consider ourselves as of the same species as God. We can't become like God.

And of course, this is what I love about the plan of salvation. It's the very, the very thing that repulses many of our brothers and sisters about the restored gospel is one of the things that's most beautiful about it to me. So we're going to have to disagree there. I love that the purpose of the plan is for God to raise his children to be like him, to be in his presence, to see as they are seen as verse 94 says, it, no as they are known. That's gonna be so great to be in God's presence and see and know how we fit in his family and to receive the

fullness of his grace and to be made equal to him. We're not claiming that we can do that on our own. That's one of the objections is that sometimes Latter-day Saints misunderstand or are perceived to think that they earn their way up to be like God. Nothing in this revelation says that. It's him who's making us equal to him. It's him who's giving us this power and might diminish him who wants to endow his children with all of the blessings he has, with all the happiness he has. And so I love that the truth. I'm very grateful that it's been restored in the latter days. And you can see hints of it with Paul, right?

We're made heirs, joint heirs with Christ. I mean, you see us, Lewis, started to see it towards the end of his writing, right? He said, you see mere mortals, but these are potential gods and goddesses. There's not a thing in the Bible that objects to it or refutes it. It's only if you read the Bible through the lenses of some Christian philosophical ideas that you come to that conclusion. And this is

right. This is my contention about traditional Christianity, is that it is based too much on Greek philosophical ideas for its orientation to the Bible. And that's why we get ideas that make us so inferior that we could never become like our Heavenly Father. Well, and I think, too, the fact, the last words you said, our Heavenly Father. Well, and I think to the fact, the last word you said, our Heavenly Father, we take that not as a metaphor. This is all about family. And of course, we're going to become like our Father.

Of course, our Father wants to reward his children and not it's not a metaphor. He's our Father. Indeed. Begotten sons and daughters unto God. Yeah, that phrase back there. We are all. Begotten sons and daughters. Yeah, that phrase back there. We're all called begotten sons and daughters. And that that Greek philosophy took that away too. And we're a creation where metaphorically his children, but not really.

Yeah. Absolutely. There can't be anything other than God originally. So we have to be created out of nothing by God. And the restored gospel rejects that. And there are lots of implications either way, depending on what you decide to do with that original idea about who God is. Section 76, tell me if I'm right here, Steve. I think it was Richard Bushman who said, in swipes, Joseph Smith cut Gordian knots, right? Section 76 seems to be one of those.

How can God be both merciful and just? It certainly does. And other revelations too, right? I've heard that same phrase used with Section 93, Truman Madsen, used it in terms of Section 93, which describes how we can be both created by God and free. Yeah. Right?

What's the nature of our agency, of our independence from God, if we are extensions of God? And that's an old and problematic question. And Section 93 answers it really brilliantly. Section 76 similarly cuts through lots of arguments and Christianity and sets forth a much more diverse and generous copious heaven than traditional Christianity has ever imagined. Yeah. I mean, I've always thought, and I could be wrong, but I've always thought that Latter-day Saints among all the theologies of on the earth have a very liberal view of heaven and who will go.

Let me tell you in practical terms what that means to me, right? There's a lot of people I love generally and specifically people I know in different Christianity's different denominations and people I look to as examples, right, of Christ-like love and behavior and devotion to God and so forth. And according to some of their Sotaryology, I'm not going to make it. I'm not going to make it because I have chosen the wrong version of Christ in whom to put my faith. And for them salvation is a matter of propositional choosing the right philosophy of who Christ

is. Well, in the version of section 76, I'm going to make it and so are they. Right? This is what I love about. This is a more generous view of salvation. It's hard for me to believe in a God who does save and damn people by his arbitrary sovereign will. Or even by saying, if you believe the right exact ideas about Christ, you can get in. You could be Mother Teresa and spend your life serving, but if you believe the wrong ideas about Christ, you're not getting in. That doesn't work for me. That's not a God of mercy. That's not the God we were introduced to in the beginning. I hope I end up with Mother Teresa. Yeah. Yeah, I'll be so fortunate if it ever works out that way. So here we have in section 76 a version of God's plan and plans for us that is worthy worthy of a God who

who wants us to have all the blessings that are possibly available to us, not because we deserve them, we don't deserve them, we don't earn them, but we get to choose them. We get to have them if we want them, because Jesus Christ, the mediator of this plan, worked it out through the shedding of his own blood, and he is capable of making us perfect. And even if I don't have exactly the right ideas

about exactly who he is, I can make it. What I need to do is covenant, covenant with God and grow by degrees and by grace that he gives me. And if I'll do that, I'm going gonna make it in. I'm gonna make it to whatever level of heaven I want and I want the one where I get to be with Jenny Sebring for all eternity. That's the motivation for me. But otherwise I'm an introverted guy. I'd take it to Lestia, heaven if it surpassed all understanding and had an ESPN, you know, place that I could watch. That'd be okay with me, but I, at some satisfying now because I want to be with my family forever.

And the way to get there is through the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and the highest of the heavenly glory. I'm glad you said that because that, that takes us to another section. And this is it being revealed right now yet about eternal families, right? Would you? Yeah, so we talked in the beginning about how, you know, everything we've had on salvation before 76 is sort of like, you know, a third grade math. We've advanced up to that level and we have an understanding of the basic concepts of addition to subtraction, multiplication, division. And then section 76 says, let's learn algebra

and some trigonometry. And then later sections are going to say, now there's some more beyond that. There's some calculus. And section 131 says, in the celestial heaven, there are even degrees beyond that. And the highest and holiest of all salvation is exaltation, where we get to be with our families forever. And so that's the goal for me, right? That's the great prize to be with my, people I cherish most for eternity is the greatest motivator of my life. I love what you said there about it's him, right? It's him. He made it possible. He wants to give

us everything that we want, right, that we choose. And I think it kind of gives us that in 107, That we choose. And I think it kind of gives us that in 107. The end of the plan, the Savior says, I have overcome. I have overcome. And have trodden the winepress alone. Even the winepress of the fearness of the wrath of the Almighty God. Then shall he be crowned with the crown of glory?

Just sit on the throne of his power to reign forever. If we realize that he overcomes, he is the one who does, you know, that fear we have of, oh, can I earn it? Can I earn it? He did earn it. And now he has the right to give you what you want. Jesus Christ is the protagonist of Section 76. He is the main character.

He's the hero. We enact one, we met him in the premortal life. We saw him there. And we've watched throughout and in the high point, the midpoint of the revelation, he worked out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. And here at the end, he says, I did it all by myself. I tried the wine prosolone and I will be crowned. You'll be crowned there with me. We see the culmination, the climactic fulfillment of Christ's redeeming work and the plans of salvation that he has brought to pass here in the verses that you were just referring to. It's really a Christ-centered revelation. For people who say, laterity saints aren't Christians, really they're just saying,

we don't believe in the same philosophical premises about Christ that they do, but it's hard to read section 76 and say a believer in that is not a believer in Christ. Is there anything to the story, Steve, of the vision closing and Sydney collapsing or some sort? I think there is. Yeah, no reason to disbelieve it. Again, we've got a phylo-devil who, throughout the 1870s, 80s and early 90s gives us a few different accounts of having been present for at least part of this. And as I remember, if I remember, he's our source for saying Sydney was sort of petite when it was over in Joseph said he's not as used to design.

That's a great moment. Which I think is really cool. That's a great moment. Which I think is really cool. That's a great moment. I think it's consistent too. I think I always think of Joseph Smith saying when I came to I was lying on my back. Apparently it wears you out or something and maybe he grew to grow stronger process. But I like that he that's in the rigged and had to be carried. That's a cool one. We ought to we ought to come out of this revelation realizing that we still don't know the celestial math, right? verse these last verses. Yeah, one 15, one 15, one 16, they say, you guys make sure you write all that

down, but trust me, you you still you don't know anything And I got more to tell you about that and he told us at the beginning of the revelation He would very generously tell us all about this just as soon as we We could internalize it so that is good leadership style is is giving people Giving people assignments that they're capable of that are just a little outside their reach and letting them get there and then give them a little more just outside their reach but don't give them, don't overwhelm them to the point that now discouraged because they can't comprehend it all. If I try to do that as a parent, not try to overwhelm a child

with so much that, you know that they're overloaded and can't move at all, but just push a little bit further every time. A little bit further. Let's reach a little bit more every time. I can see the Lord doing that with these sections. And to me, it's another testimony to the Prophet Joseph Smith that he's including little tiny hints at future revelations. He would have to have the whole plan set out in his mind to be making this up, right? To throw in little hints there here and there. In his history, there's an entry right after this revelation that is one of the key things I think about when I realize he's not the inventor of these ideas because he sits back after he sees the series of visions and he marvels at it. And the next passage in his history says that is so far beyond the narrow-mindedness of man that all of us are constrained to exclaim it

came to God. He couldn't have conceived of this. There are other people Alex Campbell, who we mentioned earlier on, he's playing with the idea of three kingdoms, but nothing like this, nothing so sophisticated. He says the first two, you kind of experience on earth, and then there's the kingdom of glory after this. manual Swedenborg, 100 years or so earlier, is tapping into Pauline phrases and Corinthians and talking about three kingdoms of heaven and so on. But nobody, none of them come anywhere close to this. I wouldn't be surprised if Swedenborg had some inspired ideas, but then you get this text and you think that just blew the roof off of everything That's Joseph himself says dang

That is so far beyond me and everybody else it came from God because of what happened after this Did it have a big impact on the persecution because it was published in the paper or whatever? Yeah, I don't know anything about that. I don't think it had anything specific to do with the March beating and torn feathers. But I do know that Joseph told the missionaries keep that on the down low, right? Do not start with, hey, did you guys know that? Let's get to that calculus after we do

addition and subtraction Brigham Young had a hard time internalizing it will for it would have said it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen I loved it a kind of a favorite statement of mine of Joseph Smith was the Could you gaze into heaven for five minutes? You would know more than by reading everything ever written on the subject and here is all of this and then even at the end and There's more which were commanded not to write. There's even more, that it's not lawful to write, and neither is man capable of writing them. And I love that God is greater and grander

than we have imagined in a good section for that statement about, if you could gaze into heaven for five minutes and he and he and Sidney did. The ending does seem to say that. It just says, we're not even coming close to telling you what we saw. We should, you know. Yeah, he wrote a letter where he said, Lord, deliver me from the narrow prison of paper pen and ink,

and a crook had broken scattered in imperfect language. And notice that some of this text is dictated, right? Some of it's in the first person voice of the Savior, but most of it is you guys describe what you've seen. And I can imagine thinking, I don't have words for that. Neither is man capable to make them own. I don't know how to describe what we just saw. I love it. Of anyone on the planet earth today, there's a handful of people who know Joseph's life like you, who understand him like you do.

And I know that there are some of your mentors who you would give full credit to. So, knowing Joseph Smith as well as you do, as well as can be from what's left, right? The documents, the evidence that's left. How do you feel about him and this and this restoration. I love Joseph Smith because he opened the door to Jesus Christ. He is utterly inconsequential unless he receives these revelations. So we've been reading about and talking about. There were literally lots of other people named Joseph Smith,

who farmed in upstate New York and other places. And we are not having a podcast about them. They weren't the greatest revelators the history and history of the world. They didn't commune with Jehovah, not in the way he did. So, I don't love Joseph Smith because he was handsome, I don't care. I don't love him because he was a good wrestler, I don't care. I don't love him because he was some sort of idealized, perfect prophet.

He wasn't, I know that he wasn't, he knew that he wasn't. The Lord knew that he wasn't, as he's told us a few times in the doctrine Covenants. So what isn't about him? Why do we care? We care because he cracked the heavens open and revealed Jesus Christ. He heard him as he was commanded and he documented that He heard him as he was commanded, and he documented that unbelievably well, and those documents are now in our hands. I mean, would you revere somebody who gave you the greatest possible gifts, right, who answered the terrible questions of existence? That's why I revere him. It's not some sort of,

you know, I don't think I have misconceptions about who he is. He's a real guy, and I don't expect him to be more than that. I'm not, it's not remarkable to me that he's sort of ordinary in many aspects. What's remarkable to me is that an ordinary guy revealed all that he did about from through by the Lord Jesus Christ. So the Savior is my subject of study, and I get to him through the texts that he gave to Joseph Smith. Steve, we can't thank you enough for coming again to our podcast, right John? When people come back, it gives us a boost of confidence. You guys are doing immensely important work.

I, 15 people are going to read making sense of the doctrine comments, but a million people are going to watch what sense of the doctrine comments, but a million people are going to watch what you guys are doing. And it wouldn't matter if it was me on here doing it with you or not, but I am pleased and thankful to be able to talk about these wonderful revelations. That testimony was beautiful. I don't care if he was handsome in a good wrestle. I mean, that was beautiful. He opened the door to Christ. Thank you for that. That was beautiful. He opened the door to Christ. Thank you for that.

Well, everyone, we want to thank Brother, Dr. Steven Harper for being with us. We want to thank all of you for listening. We're grateful for your support. We couldn't do it without listeners. We're thankful to our executive producers, Steven Shannon Sorenson. Our production crew, we have just an awesome crew that helps us. David Perri,

Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton, and Maria Hilton. And please join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you