Doctrine & Covenants 85-87 Part 1 • Prof. Robert Freeman • Aug 4 - 10 • Come Follow Me
00:00Coming up in this episode on Follow Him.Here they were. They had the priesthood, and this is a distinctive thing about our faith,is they would have the priesthood so they could conduct that service, they could have the sacrament.They were organized into groups.This was a first in World War II, and they would have the emblems of the sacrament.Elder Maxwell described it as being something of a roll call to know if there had been any casualties in the previous week.Now, that's sobering to me, the notion that someone might not show up this week that was here the previous meeting.He shared that, but I also remember his saying as part of the interview that he felt he was so fortunate.
00:43They never came to hate the enemy, that he was spared that kind of an emotion of true hatred for the enemy,that he just conducted his service as best he.could, obviously facing danger on a daily basis. Little did he know that many years later he wouldreturn to that same place to Okinawa to dedicate a church worship edifice. To hear him talk about thatand reflect on those experiences was a powerful, inspiring really opportunity that I recall very well.Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I'm here with my co-host, John, by the way, who is a fountain of truth. John, that's Section 85 verse 7. I read Fountain of Truth and thought, wow, that's John, by the way. All I can do is laugh.Fountain of something. Yeah. Fountain of something. John, we are in sections 85, 86, and 87 today.Joining us is Professor Robert Freeman.
02:00To me, he's a good friend.I call him Bob.Bob, welcome to follow him.Sure, nice to be with you.I've been waiting a long time for this.I'm excited for it.John, when you think post section 76, everything is changed now, we've talked about thatfor the last couple of weeks.
02:17We get into these sections, and one is about war.It's such a fascinating topic.What comes to mind as you were thinking about?this. I thought also about the Book of Mormon and about the war chapters there. Really that questionthat I think we all wrestle with, how do we view war? How do we do that? When does God tell us that'ssomething we have to do or need to do? I'm looking forward to that discussion because this planethas been full of war ever since the beginning. These sections are no different. Neither was theBook Mormon. John, that's exactly why I asked Bob to come on the podcast this week. It's his
03:00experience studying war and the church. Bob, what are we looking forward to today as you'veprepared? These are great sections. They're short in numbers of verses, but powerful and purpose andmessage. It's interesting. They're sandwiched between two other really important sections,84, stands on its own as does 88, on the list of really important.revelations to consider. In terms of my own interest in background, well, it's modest to be sure,but I have made a career out of studying the experiences in our dispensation of Latter-day Saintsgoing forward in times of war. The impact that has had on their lives and the impact thattheir service has on the church and on the nations, it is plural, nations that they have
03:51served and represented. I hope I can add something of value to this discussion. Yeah. I'm excitedfor this, Bob. John, in 2010, I taught my first class at BYU, summer of 2010. One of the firstpeople I met was Bob Freeman. Big smile, big handshake, and a welcome to BYU. I needed that. Bob,I probably didn't act like it. I probably acted super confident, but I needed someone to greet me and say,hey, you belong here because I sure felt like I was underqualified in every way. John, I knowyou know Bob as well, maybe a little further back than 2010. I think I first met Bob and we shook hands.We were having some of our early counselor meetings at the Riviera apartments. Do you remember that?I think the dorms were undergoing renovation or something. We had some of our training over at the
04:46Riviera. I met you there. So I am like one year home from.from a mission, less than a year home from a mission. It's 84, I think. Yeah, I was hoping you wouldn'tgive the year away, John. I was going to say, this is the 1900s. Well, it was a nationalchampionship year. It was a little hard to forget at BYU. We met then, and we're doing especiallyfor youth EFY, not to be confused with FSI. We've known each other for a while. Have yousaved any of your counselor shirts? No, there would be no purpose in that, John.It wouldn't fit them well.John and Bob, tell us about the first year of EFY, because that's what FSY came from.
05:31I'll defer to John.He lived it.You might know that my gathering dust, even right now as we speak as my master's thesis on the history of EFY,I was really grateful that my master's was in religious education.And when I proposed that as a topic, I was so grateful.that they said, yeah, somebody ought to do that. The first, especially for youth, was actuallyin 1976. They only had, was 127 participants. They didn't know what to call it. They said,let's call it especially for youth until we can think of something better. That was, it was really
06:08fun to research that and write about it. See, I went on to my mission to the Philippines. My firstcompanion was an awesome, tall guy named Elder Charles Edgar Buchanan III. He, when I got homefrom my mission, said, John, come and do EFY. I just fell in love with the program and the impact we werehaving and moved to Provo. I really look back to Elder Buchanan and my mission and God puttingthose things in place, at least for me, I think was a tender mercy. He changed my life. My missionchanged my life. Yeah, and so many other people's lives with the John, by the way, work,we need to thank Elder Buchanan for that. What do you remember from EFY? Not a lot.What John's adding is actually informing me. I just recall holding on to the coattails of John
07:00and it was a great summer job. John and I were talking before we went on air that the greatestpart of the program back in that day was the counselors. Lives were being impacted.on the front lines. But then, of course, the youth themselves really helped me to seethat something about that mission service, something about what I was experiencing as a studentat BYU. They were blessing my life and instilling a confidence in what I could do goingforward. It's just interesting how career and life have played out in my life since then.I attributed a lot of it to those early days and experiences like E.F.Y.Oh, that's great. I was an E.F.Y counselor, but much later than you guys. It was the 1990s.
07:49Now, tell us a little bit more about Bob, John. What do we know?Yes. Well, in fact, I grabbed this because I'm so thankful of the work that Bob and Dennis Wright have done.This is my Saints at War book. After serving his mission to London, England, Robert Freeman completed his undergraduate degree.at Brigham Young University, then attended law school at Western State Universityin Fullerton, California, following a fulfilling career with their church educational system.Robert became a full-time faculty member at the BYU University's Department of ChurchHistory and Doctrine in 1996.Robert and his wife, Janiel Bacon Freeman, are the parents of six children and live in Springville,
08:31Utah.We still live in Springville, and now five of those seven kids have married and gone on inlive. We're down to pretty much empty nestar status. It's an exciting season of live for sure.Just love the opportunity to be involved in education at BYU and hope some of your viewers havefelt a blessing in their students as they've gone through the religious education aspect ofthe BYU education to have tutelage under myself and others of my associates that we justreally try to dedicate ourselves to their purposes and needs and their futures as disciples ofChrist that they can go forward and enter to learn, go forth to serve, really make a difference
09:16in this very complex time that we live through.This ties back to the devotion I have to research of our saints in wartime.John, what are you doing?Pulling a book out, I haven't seen that for too long.They cover that first volume.We've actually gone on and published, I think, seven or eight volumes since that.that time relating to different conflicts and at different times and the dispensation and whereour saints have been.
09:41One of the things that I want to say early on is first deep gratitude to my wife, who has beena key research assistant to me through all the 25 plus years that this has been my researchfocus and to our children who love and adore, they've come to know and love these veteransthe way I have.That's been a blessing for sure.I want to say that our saints have been in all the major conflicts of the dispensationand have been key participants, really heroic in their contributions,yet humble, dedicated, they really turn back praise or too much accolades.
10:20They don't think of themselves in that way, but they have gone forward to serve in times of a need.wars and rumors of war continue to be so sadly a consistent pattern if you will which is of coursescripturally very much connected to what the prophecies have instructed would happen but certainlysatan has really used war as a way to divide the human family everything about it is anatheticalto or in opposition to christ the prince of peace we just continue forwardthrough these times, holding hands, if you will, figuratively, that we can come throughand surmount any challenge or obstacle that Satan puts in our way in this kind of a contextof war.
11:09I'm really looking forward to today and hearing all these veterans, Bob, there's somethingthat stirs the soul when you start to talk about these saints.Let me read from the Come Follow Me Manual to start us off.It begins this way.Christmas Day is usually a time to ponder messages like peace on earth.But on December 25, 1832, Joseph Smith's mind was occupied with the threat of war.The state of South Carolina in the United States had just defied the government and waspreparing for battle.
11:40The Lord revealed that this was only the beginning.War, he declared, will be poured out upon all nations.It seemed like this prophecy would be fulfilled very soon.But then it wasn't.Within a few weeks, South Carolina, the United States government reached a compromise andwar was averted. Prophecy, however, is not always fulfilled at the time or the way weexpect. Nearly 30 years later, long after Joseph Smith was martyred, South Carolina,rebelled, and civil war followed. Today, war throughout the modern world continues to cause
12:12the earth to mourn. The value of this revelation is less in predicting when calamity will come,and more in teaching what to do when it comes. The council is the same in 1831, 1816.61 and 2025, stand ye in holy places and be not moved.Bob, with that, where do we want to start?I think we're just fine to begin with 85.This is a revelation that comes at a time in church history,of course that there have developed two church centers.We have here in Kirtland, the place of this revelation,
12:54really a letter authored primarily by Joseph Smith and to William W.W. Phelps, Section 85 really is all essentially in Joseph's handwriting, which is matters all by itself.Really kind of a dual voice. Some of this, Joseph's first person and some of it in the Lord's first person instruction.We have key personalities of the early dispensation, most notably probably Edward Partridge, our new and first bishop, involved in this.It's at a time when principles associated with the law of consecration are coming into play.W.W. Phelps is at this point in Independence, Missouri.He's leading the saints there.there are about 800 a number who have now come to that new gathering place.In that spirit of establishing Zion and oneness, the principles of the law of consecration
14:00are being implemented, but it's having an uneven reception, if you will.Some are being hesitant in their willingness to dedicate fully to living those principles.We look back in 2020 hindsight here.I think most of us acknowledged that, well, that was a big step, was a stretch.We are empathetic to some of this, but deeds are still being taken in the name of the ownerwhen, in fact, the principal teaches to consecrate over to the church and then receive your inheritance back.The Lord is warning in Section 85 against that practice.Even Edward Partridge, his own role as a bishop slash administrator, is being examined here a little bit.
14:51And how is the function of that in the day-to-day practice going to look?And there's a sort of coming to of what this requires of our dedicated hearts and minds.And that's hard.Yeah, that's hard.As you were telling us about these people, it's a little hard to make that step into consecration.And I thought, that's hard for a lot of us.I know it's hard for John, not necessarily for me, but I know, this is hard for everyone on paper.And in my head, it sounds good, it sounds, but then when the moment comes, can I do it?
15:27John, do you remember Dr. Rosalind Welch was with us a couple of weeks ago?And she said, your relationship with your possessions changes in consecration.At one point, you're the owner.This is yours.And then when you consecrate it, you're the steward.You're caring for it, even though it's the same property.I've never forgotten that.I think maybe it's hard to give up that.
15:51This is mine role to I'm a steward.There's the real and the ideal.I think, like you said, we all can hear the ideal and go, ooh, yeah, that sounds good.That sounds good.Then when it comes to your own stuff, you're like, oh, I kind of worked really hard.over the years to get that.What about those people that don't work hard at all?We start looking sideways.
16:19Yeah.Like the parable of the labors in the vineyard.Yeah.Then Joseph Smith is what, a thousand miles away?And you're thinking, does he really know what's going on?What I'm sacrificing here?Bob, so is Section 85, is it more of a correction?Is it the Lord being really firm here?
16:39I think there's some mix of correction, also a hopeful tone that if accepting the principles,the way they are being laid out, is in alignment with our hearts and our minds.We can get there and be blessed in that process.It's just the ongoing and unfolding of these principles.is at the core at the center of much of what is intended in establishing Zion.Well, it makes sense because setting aside some of these tendencies you've just drawn outthat is sort of the human frailties part of our existence.That's a hard thing.
17:22We do hard things.In the process, we give our lives over to the Lord knowing that he can make a whole lotmore out of our lives than we can and our community.and this seeking or aspiring to oneness.That's the hopeful part, I think, of the message.One of those who is in direct focus,and it's clear in the text and then with Joseph Smith papers,you see this is William McClellan.
17:50He has been the subject of writing by our esteemed senior colleague,Larry Porter, in his seminal work on William's life,where you just see these ups and downs.And when he catches the vision, he contributes in great ways.Then there's hesitancy.He's one of those taking deeds in his own name.That's a hard place to be in connection with this kind of a revelation and teaching.We just have to get there.
18:17Bob, when you say taking deeds in his own name, the idea is I'm going to deed this to the church.It's now property of the church.They're going to give back to me, but I'm the steward now.John's talking of the steward.Isn't that a beautiful word, steward?We still have an interest in magnifying and making it flourish, just as any other relationship role.I'm an attorney by training.I think of deeds and contracts.
18:45They lay out in ways that the laws of man describe and establish relationship.But stewardship on the Lord's way, it's a call to continue to make things flourish,dedicating them to really ultimately his purposes.What a great way to do life.There's some then in Missouri who aren't doing that.They're keeping their possessions in their name.That will be a pattern that maintains.We'll see it even after the Saints removal to the West,
19:19that it visits again and again.We have to ask ourselves, as we look at the text now,we reflect on history, where would I have been in this connection? Would I have been a willingheart and run, not just walk toward obedience to that call? Yeah. You see some today who drop everything,give it to the Lord, and go out. Some of them come from the most humble climbs and situations.Somebody might criticize that, well, of course, it's easy. No, I think to be in a very modest place,place in terms of your temporal possessions and to just say, still, I will give whatever the Lordasks. That's a monument to me of obedience and dedication of discipleship.
20:08Yeah. It's happening all throughout the church. Are there any verses we could highlightfrom Section 95 that you want to look at? Well, I'm worried I'm taking some things out of orderhere a little bit. Right at verse one is important for us because there's sort of mechanics of howthis happens too. The Lord is calling on Joseph to instruct, and Edward Partridge, again, a part ofthis, that a history and record, and I might emphasize especially the record aspect of thishere, less a personal history image coming to my mind, but let's keep a record. This will be somethingthat happens again and again in the doctrine covenants at key times. It will happen with theNavu Temple when the call is made to build the Navu Temple to keep a record of what is happening
21:01on the errand of the Lord in furtherance of that call and hear the call to practice the principlesof consecration. Joseph goes out on the very day that this revelation is coming into playand acquires that record. That record will be used going forward.to maintain who is inand can be counted onin regards to this call to obedience.I think that's important,but right behind that,
21:34my favorite verse two alsois that there's also to keepin that record the mannerof life, their faith,their works. In a way,it's recording howwe proceed into this practicein this community
21:50covenant, if you will.The dividendsand the blessings that we see as an outcome of that commitment.I looked up the word manner coming into our discussion and thinking,what do I think of when I think the manner and the suggestion that I received in the dictionary definitions,there were the way we live, display our habits, our conduct, our approach to life.How do we do life?we elevate through practices such as we're describing here with the law of consecration
22:27are plain if you will of life then the dividend blessings come and we record those as wellthus we see because they were obedient these good things happened in their lives they prosperedin the ways the lord defines prospering it may not be the world's more secular view of whatprospering means, but in the Lord's view. Thus we see. I like that. That's a book of Mormon phrase.They did this and thus we see here is what happened. I've never noticed this. We want to keep a record ofthose who have that kind of faith. They follow through. They consecrate their property. And let'ssee what happens. Record their manner of life, their faith and their works. And record those wholeave. Record those who apostatize after receiving their inheritance.
23:20I like the word firm because it sounds just a little gentler than condemnation,but the Lord is very firm in this letter turned revelationthe consequences to those who reject the call to Zion to consecration.Wow.It's just as you describe ink.I really like this, Bob, that maybe there's something about me that I'm going to hand this over.Maybe it's selfish, John, you can tell me, that my name is recorded.Not me and my family are recorded as having done this for posterity's sake that I did this.
23:57I don't think the Lord's against that.What do you think, John?Sometimes I think, why am I keeping a journal?Aren't angels writing down everything or isn't everything?Isn't a record being kept in heaven for everything?Perhaps this can also help us look at our ancestors, see what they did, what they sacrificed.I sure think we're living in the time of President Harrowly.You called it the test of gold when I have to have lessons on the law of the fast
24:26because I haven't been forced to fast like the pioneers did that had nothing to eat.I haven't known a day of hunger unless I chose to on fast day.You know what I mean?Man, we have a different challenge.I don't know.I'm just thinking could this record also be so that we can read itand learn from those that went before us maybe?We'll finish our discussion today probably in Section 87.
24:51I think of the military nomenclature.We have so many acronyms in military contexts.AWOL is one of them that I think I knew of from very early age.And what the Lord is trying to do here,and we're going to see it in Section 86 as well with the parable of the weed and the tear,he's trying to have folks understand that there's a firm line between the dedicateddisciple and the one who, well, maybe I'll get around to it sometime, but not today, really thelatter camp falls into the AWOL camp. They're absent without leave. They've been invited to a
25:29covenant, to a level and standard of living that the Lord knows will in the end greatly enhance andbless, not just for mortality, but for eternity. He wants every one of his children to have thatappetite, if you will, that desire, that yearning for that brand of living, that manner ofliving, disappointed for sure, but also that there is a consequence affixed to that rejectionis what is entailed in Section 85.I love that.He's inviting us into a space where the blessings are immense.Come in.
26:11Come in.Bob, let's keep going.What's next in this section you want to look at?Again, we've got this same, three times in this section.We see it again in verse four, their genealogy to be kept.Verse five, the book of the law of God.These are all essentially the same, invoking of a record, as the section plays out.Then it talks about those who find themselves on the outside looking in,
26:41if you will, verse nine, all they who are not found written in the book ofremembrance, that's yet another mention of the record, shall find none inheritance in thatday, but they shall be cut asunder and their portion appointed them among them believers.Where are wailing and gnashing of teeth, a very undesirable outcome?Ironically, as I hug too closely to the things of the temporal kind, and I'm unwillingto practice what the Lord has guided me to as a disciple of Christ, as I hugged that.Ultimately, I lose even that.I lose it all.
27:26That is not where I wanted to be.That was not what I envisioned, even in my hesitancy, to live the higher law.Of course, the principles of the law of consecrationary will there is still.As we attend the temple and as we participate in covenants,we know that we are still called to be willing and able to give our all.We should, in our daily walk, be a covenant people willing to dedicate our all.We still have those invitations.How well do I abide that?
28:01I really appreciate this side, you might say, of the Lord.Me in general, I love to hear the Lord's, I will forgive.will love. I am here for you, but I do appreciate, I think that makes that more meaningful whenthere is a line. There is firmness here where the Lord says, if you don't follow through,there are consequences coming that are terrible. I appreciate that. I think that's an act of love.Notice time is of the essence. The Lord is so patient. He is so patient with me. My life, my shortcomings,my continuing effort to become, to get there.But in this historical context, time was of the essence.
28:50The Lord had things that needed to be done.They needed to be done in a sequence in time to move this restoration,these early moments of the restoration forward to what was next.The patience seems a little less.The saints need to get there.It's a little like the call to build the Kirtland Temple, and I can't think of the Kirtlandwithout thinking that I was just last summer with you, Hank, in Kirtland.Yeah.
29:19I have a picture in my mind's eye of you and your family on the back of a rocket ship,I think, in a local town parade.Yep, that was exactly right.I think I had the picture still.We were celebrating the moment in history when the church acquired again the Kirtland Templeand some of the key documents.and properties there, both in Kirtland and Navu.When the errand of the Lord was to build a temple in those early days,
29:45he chastened the saints when they fell a little behind in the time framethat he needed them to be working in.It's a little like that in Section 85 that the time is now.I need it now.Sound familiar to parents.Sometimes they're trying to chasten gently a son or daughter that,hey, I've got to have you meet your moment here,whether it's the home chores or something a little bigger,
30:10this is your moment that sees the day.Have you ever heard people say,they tried the law of consecration and it didn't work.Now we're not living it.I've heard different answers to that.I'd love to hear what you guys would say.It is still with us today.You see it in a temple worship and in other settings.
30:29Hasn't gone away.It takes a little different form, perhaps,than what we might see here in this record and time.Yeah. There's a myth out there, John, I think you're right, where someone might say, oh, the law of consecration, they tried it, it didn't work, so God took that away and gave them tithing. For some reason, that myth has taken hold among some, but that's not the case. We covenant to live the law of consecration in our temple covenants. I had a student once say, why are we going to start to live the law of consecration? And I said, you mean me and you? Like, we both probably should very soon.thinking, oh, when's it going to come back?It never went away.Notice in first three of Section 85, the Lord is still talking about tithing.This is an all-in situation, and whatever form he's inviting in a particular moment of time, are we all in?
31:24And again, it's not, can we bring the technical obedience to?It's the heart.It's really where our heart is in terms of the 100% devotion.the hymn that we sing so often captures the heart that you're talking about, Bob,because I have been given much I too must give.Or the big one, I'll go where you want me to go, I'll do what you want me to do,I'll be what you want me to be.But Thursday really doesn't work for me.
31:54The canning assignment.Thursday doesn't really work.I have my wife's only sister and her husband just returning from service as mission leaders in Peru.this month. We all know these folks in our lives that are just called in a moment's notice toleave careers and family and in such a dedicated way. Just leave it all behind. Go serve theLord. In this way, in a remarkable way, anyone who's queried former mission president leadershipabout what the experience is like. Talk about 24-7. The Sabbath day takes on a little differentlook, when you're in that kind of a service, we see it with other leadership, of course.
32:38But that level of commitment of just, I'll go where you want me to go, dear Lord,does you say, John, I mean, how do I get there?How do I become that person if we find ourselves still wanting in those ways?Wow.I wonder if there's any mission leader who ever thought, this came at a really perfect,time. I'm sure they're there, John, but I just haven't met them. Yeah, I haven't either. This is agreat time to leave my grandkids, you know. I know it's a name familiar to all of us, but I was theinterim department chair last year when Lloyd and Carmel Newell accepted their call to go and
33:21serve. I visited with Lloyd several times about how hard this was for him, that there was nohesitancy. There was no question what they would do. But on a personal level,In his case, leaving the service 39 years as a voice of the tabernacle choir.That's a pretty good mission and dedication all by itself.Then his time at BYU drawing to a close, he wasn't sure that was when he wanted to retire,but the Lord said that was the time.So it became the time.What a thing to admire.
33:51Yeah.My good friends, Jason and Amber Kilgore, they got a call to serve as mission leaders,right in the middle of marriages and grandkids.Yeah, you just do it.You just go.You consecrate yourself to the work.Senior couple yesterday giving a report of their mission to Australia in a member support capacity.And the miracles they were able to share.
34:18I mean, my wife and I were pushing back tears the entire message because you just said, where do I sign up?I want to go there.It was amazing what they'd been a part of.So humbly.What a great way to give to the Lord, consecration.This discussion reminds me of this thought from Elder Christofferson.True success in this life comes in consecrating our lives,that is, our time and choices to God's purposes.
34:50Bob, this is to your point.The Lord is offering us an opportunity here.This is Elder Christopherson.In so doing, consecration, we permithim to raise us to our highest destiny.Who doesn't want that?No, not necessarily a sacrifice at all when you know what the Lord's intention is.I want to draw our attention to verse 6 for just a moment if we can.
35:17I just thought this is really one of those places where a relatively short verse has a powerfulcompare and contrast.On the one hand, we're drawn into the verse with the phrase familiar to us.in various scripturesthat Lord works through a stillsmall voicewhich whispereth throughand pierceth all things
35:39already I'm seeing the contraston the one hand it's a stillsmall voiceI want to say that in a hushed tonea still small voicewhich then is followedwith this and piercethall things
35:56that's like body armorSuddenly, how does that happen?The still small voice pierceth all things.And oftentimes it maketh my bones to quake.Why, John and Hank, that just makes my bones quake.Right.Yeah.About what does that imply?
36:17Any thoughts?Reminds me of Third Nephi, doesn't it?They heard the voice and it pierced them to the soul.President Boyd K. K. Packer had said once,don't have the words. And then he said, amazingly, even the scriptures don't have the words thatperfectly describe the spirit. There's so many descriptions, but Hank, I went where you did. I'mlooking at third Nephi, 113. It was not a harsh voice. Neither was it a loud voice. Nevertheless,and notwithstanding it being a small voice, it did pierce them that did hear it to the center.
36:49It's the same kind of paradox. It's small. It's quiet. It's not loud. But, whoa, it had an impact.It went right through me, which is a really great attempt to try to describe that.I wouldn't want to be out of place here, but I'm having come to mind one or two timeswhen my wife has tried gentle persuasion with a soft voice,but something that she said in that gentle persuasion that still pierced me to the heartthat I'd ought to act a little more like the priesthood holder I'm supposed to be in that homethat can take a little gentle whisper and run with it.It's a call to a higher, holier level of living.
37:33I'm reminded of a President Henry B. Iring statement, which I've always loved.He said, don't be surprised if when you feel the spirit, it's accompanied by what you feel is a rebuke.I've tried to illustrate this with the teenagers.If you can see my hand, this is the...the symbol of scolding, but don't be surprised if when you feel the spirit it's accompaniedby a rebuke, a come up to higher ground. I change from scolding to an invitation to,you can do better, you know you can, come on up here. I like that, that's both of those.Yeah, that's powerful. Then at verse 7, we have this phrase that's gotten a fair amount of
38:17play in the commentaries that you can read on the Doctrine Covenants in this section inparticular that the Lord God will send one mighty and strong holding the scepter of powerin his hand clothed with light for a covering. What does that entail and then the discussionthat follows there in Scripture? Well, I was hoping that Hank might have describedme as mighty and strong, but it didn't even enter his mind. It reminds me of a certain episodeof the Andy Griffith show when Barney is getting his blood pressure taken. The doctor'swrapping the thing around his arm and suddenly the doctor looks kind of alarmed and Barney says,what's the matter? The doctor says, well, nothing. I've just never been able to wrap it around
39:08that many times before. And what does Barney say, John, do you remember? He says something like,I won't find much horse flesh. We fiefs are wiry. You know, something like that.He wasn't the model for Arnold Freeberg's paintings at that stage of life.No, he was last on the list, yeah.I did have something from Susan Easton Black's book about this. She talked about what washappening and said Bishop Edward Partridge was able to resolve the problem.that caused difficulty among the church members in Jackson County. Therefore, the need to send onemighty and strong to set in order the House of God and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the
39:58saints was unnecessary. Through time, however, some Latter-day Saints have interpreted the sendingof one mighty and strong as a future event. This has led to, and then there's a quote from a book byJoseph Fielding Smith. This has led to, quote, no end of needless speculation due to a misunderstandingof what is written. Close quote. To counteract those who claim to be the prophesied one mighty andstrong, on November 13, 1905, the first presidency issued a proclamation refuting such claims.Isn't that interesting? I came across that as well, John. I'm so glad you invoke the name ofSusan in her writing. There's a volume she authored entitled Who's Who and the Doctor in Covenants.I was done a good number of years ago, but in my early career, I found it really useful to go through and see just in brief bios of the different names that appear in the Doctrine Covenants, how, as the record plays out, where they are eventually in their standing relative to the work.
41:02Any is too many, but there are too many of those personalities that they hesitated, they pulled back, some became enemies of the church,And we know this. We speak of this on occasion with certain developments of historical eventssuch that that's the warning and that's the firmness the Lord is trying to bring to thisinstruction so that we get there, that we understand the memo, if you will, that the scripturememo of what it is were to rise to become. What do you want to look at here?Well, I think there's some pretty straightforward things that set up right at the outset of this section.who are the sowers of the seed verse two the apostles are the sowers and the field is the worldthen we're trying to understand the relationship between the weed and the tears this is a really
41:57remarkable treatment of one of the most important of the parables the savior imparts in the newtestament even one of those few that has a name the parable of the weand the tears with just that much.I'm so intrigued and interested to know what you two have experienced as you've taught thison a regular basis in the classrooms of the church.I just love looking at the synopsis.The Lord gives the meaning of the parable of the wheat and tears.That's right.
42:31What more could you ask for?Right.Sometimes he would give a parable and just walk away, leaving everybody,you go, what? In Matthew 13, where this parable comes from, first he gives the parable of thesower, people walk away. Then the apostles come up and say, hey, why are you speaking in parables?And well, he quotes the calling of Isaiah. So we'll see with their eyes, hear with the ears,understand with their heart be converted and be healed, but some won't. And then he says,here now the interpretation. Wow. Well, we get the interpretation of the parable of the sower,
43:09but here we get an interpretation of the wheat and the tears.I just love when the Lord gives the interpretation.You don't have to guess and speculate anymore.Hank, I don't know about you, but look at the strong words.Verse 3, after they've fallen asleep, the great persecutor of the church,the apostate, the whore, even Babylon.I mean, we were not allowed to say that word when we were kids.even though it's a scriptural word
43:38and then even Satanhe soweth the tearsthe tears choke the wheat drive the churchinto the wilderness wowhere we've got the Lord giving the interpretationI want to hear what you're going to say Hankwell I'm fascinated by thisbecause verse 3 he brings in a little
43:53bit of First Nephithe great persecutor of the churchthe apostate the whore even Babylonthere's some references thereto Nephi's visionof the great and spacious buildingwhich is a fun littleconnection to make. That makes you look differently at the parable of the wheat and the tears
44:10thinking, oh, it's very similar to the tree versus the building that we know so much about,that both are drawing. They're a sieve. I've got to go one way or the other. I go towardsthe tree or I go towards the building. All of a sudden, John, you're a fan of making thoseconnections from like sister chapters. And when you can find a sister chapter, all of a suddenthings open up to you, kind of like Alma 32. We learn about the seed and the tree, and then itconnects to First Nephi A and connects to the sower. You make those connections acrossbooks and across chapters. That can open up things for you. The idea that the tears, the great andspacious building, chokes the wheat and drives the church into the wilderness. Doesn't that sound
44:58familiar to those who, what does it say, are laughing and scoffing, pointing their feet?fingers, the tears choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness. But then theconnection to the latter days. But in the last days, here comes the blade springing up. It'sstill tender. Still our young church. It's not even three years old yet. But here comes thewheat. Hank, I love and Bob the agricultural metaphors because there are things we can relate to,even with a little bit of doing gardening.Hank, can I state that again because I think it's so fascinating?That Jesus gives the parable of the four kinds of soils.
45:43It's better named that.Elder McConkey and Elder Talmadge both called it the four types of soil.If you're going to go plant something in your yard,the first question you should ask is, what kind of soil do I have?Because you've got to prep the soil first.Jesus is talking about prepping the soil.Then as you said, Hank, we get into the book of Mormon, and Alma says, I'm going to plant a word in your hearts, which you currently don't believe, because I heard your buddy's prayer on the Rami-Uptum, and you currently don't believe this, because the Rami-Uptum folks said that there's no Christ. I'm going to plant this word in your heart and nourish it by your faith. The seed isn't faith. The word is Christ. It requires faith to sow it and to grow.it. Then he talks about the season. You've got to give it time to grow roots, also in
46:34down the 32. Then as you said, Hank, he tells him, if you don't take care of this, you will neverpluck of the fruit of the tree of life. Boom, there's your first Nephi eight references. What are wegrowing here? The tree is Christ, the seed is Christ, the joy of the gospel is the joy fromChrist. Well, in this one, it's another agricultural thing, but wow, the opposition in allthinks that here we are trying to grow, we've got tears, right alongside.Yeah, you've got to wonder if in Joseph Smith's mind isn't, hey, when is this greatseparation going to take place? We feel like we're wheat here and we're being attacked bythe tears. The Lord is saying, well, it's not yet. You're yet tender. I'm not going to do that work
47:18right now. It's a great testament to the patience of the Lord to let these two side by side byside through their growth pattern and to maturity.At what point do we see, and I'm not one who's come from a farmer's background and roots,but at what point does the wheat distinguish itself in a way that's readily observable?Isn't it true that it's those tassels that start, I don't know if that's the right word,but basically the product of the good of that wheat that is filling the measure,of its creation. Now we see that in clear observation. Drive across America at harvest timeand those endless fields of wheat that we see in a place like Nebraska, I guess. There it is an
48:13obvious fruition. It's come to fruition. And that's a beautiful thing. It distinguishes itselfin a very natural way. It's prospered. It's become productive. And that signalsthat the time is coming for that harvest and the bringing in to my house in the spiritualvein that we would think of of the wheat. I really like what you said there, Bob. The end of thatwheat, the head that you might say, the ear of the wheat is full of grain, full of seeds. Yet here,what is the Lord saying in verses 8, 9, 10, 11, it's priesthood.in the lineage. Father, fathers and mothers to sons and daughters to fathers and mothers tosons and daughters. Isn't that a beautiful little symbol there of that head of wheat full of seed?
49:09And what does that impart to the next generation of wheat? It's the seed for the next and the next andthe next. I think I've heard Anthony Sweat say as quickly as you can, get to the Savior in yourteaching. But I also love the JST. I mean, the audacity, as some would view it.You're changing the Bible? No, I'm clarifying it. We've talked about this before, that it's notnecessarily a translation of ancient text. It might just be a clarification. But to have a prophetcomment on a prophet, to have Jesus comment on a parable he gave, what a treasure. To have abinidai say, let me tell you what Isaiah 15. What a treasure. Here's what Joseph Smith saidabout the parable. This is teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, page 98.
49:58Now we learn by this parable, not only the setting up of the kingdom in the days of the Savior,which is represented by the good seed, which produce fruit,but also the corruptions of the church, which were represented by the tears, which were sown by the enemy,which his disciples would fain have plucked up or cleansed the church of if their views had been favored by the Savior,but he, knowing all things, says, not so, as much as to say your views are not correct.The church is in its infancy.If you take this rash step, you will destroy the world.wheat or the church with the tares. Therefore, it is better to let them grow together until the harvest
50:33or to the end of the world, which means the destruction of the wicked. What I love about this islet the Lord be that judge at that time. At that moment, yeah. The question I still have for theSavior is, is it possible for a tear to become a wheat? Because it doesn't happen in the parable,But have you ever heard of somebody investigating the opposition literature then becoming converted?I've just wondered that question.I have the April 6th, the 1930 conference addresses.I'm sure you've probably perused those a dozen times, but April 6, 1930 B.H. Roberts is speaking and he says to the congregation,we have seven temples in the land around and about.
51:23The tavernacle, ha, ha.Imagine the day when there will be, he says,a hundred temples,and talked about the next century.Well, we're not to 2030 yet.Look at how many.So it's fun to think about that.Hundreds being talked about more in the recent decades
51:43and thinking that's a real stretch for me to imagine.One of the things that this study of church history does for us is to say, you know what, there was always a time when people were leaving and coming and going.It's always been that way.Yep.Yeah, we talk about it in the context of war.You look at World War II, we think of these valiant Latterty Saint young men going forward in terms of the valiant part of it.Well, most of them were less active.A good number of them had word of wisdom and other issues that weren't very comfortable.
52:16we wouldn't talk about, but they also had so many of them that it pivoted their lives and theyturned back to Christ. This gets into the wheat and tear all by itself, doesn't it? That question ofwhat is the part of this description that deals with that individual that has been that prodigal sonand they came home? I certainly have seen that happen. Speaking of this parable, both of you,we can get discouraged. I've heard from students and parents who are discouraged,by the world around us today and sin and debauchery is everywhere around us and our children.It can be discouraging, but also look at the wheat.I've brought just a few statistics for you both.
53:00I would love to hear your thoughts.I had to ask a little artificial intelligence here.Temples in various phases, either dedicated operating, under construction, 382.382. Let's go to missionary totals. There's 75, almost 75,000 full-time teaching missionaries,31,000 senior missionaries, 4,100, almost 4,200 young service missionaries, making that a total of110,000 active missionaries. How about another one? Almost 32,000 wards and branches. That's over 3,600stakes. I just wanted to read to you something pretty recent. June of 2025, Elder Cook was speakingto new mission presidents here in Provo, new mission leaders. He said, let me get this,
53:59during the first quarter of 2025, every region of the world had at least a 20% increasein the total number of convert baptisms compared to the first quarter of 2024, which24 was the highest baptizing year in 25 years. I know it can be discouraging, seeing the tears,you might say, the wickedness around us growing, but the wheat is doing really well.If you're out there hearing the social media narratives, go to the church news, read some of thosearticles, read some of the teachings that the mission leaders received. It was, it'll fire you up.It was so exciting. The wheat's growing, isn't it?No. People do leave and have left. And that's not our job to judge, as you said earlier, John. It's not our job to say that person's a tear and that person's a wheat. That's probably rude. Yeah, might be a little bit rude. But in general, when you think of how the church is doing, Bob, you know the history of the church, as well as anyone. The church is doing well. That mighty stone rolls forth.
55:09And Bob, how's the world changed since you served in England?Well, I mean, that's the remarkable thing in our discussion today as we come to Section 87 is to think the complexities are the section just beyond our Section 88 will invite us to the study of the world that we live in.And I love that it includes things on the earth and under the earth.My degree from BYU was in geology, so I was considered things under the earth are very important part of that call.But of nations and of their perplexities, and certainly we live in a time of great complexity across the board.I'm glad you brought up Section 88 because I thought, what a wonderful bookend.88 is such a message of peace.Here in these sections, we've got challenges of consecration in 86.
55:59We've got the wheat and the tears in 87 prophecies of war.And this message of peace, didn't Joseph Smith call it the olive leaf?section 88. Yeah, section 88. To anyone out there, it does seem dark. That is real.Look what the Lord says in verse 11. Blessed are you, if you continue in my goodness,continue in my goodness, and you are a light unto the Gentiles. You will be a lowercase saviorunto my people, Israel. That's beautiful guidance. As both the wheat and the tears grow together,you stay. Goodness. Continue in my goodness. Be a light and a savior unto my people.Bob, with that, let's go into section 87. We're getting into now your career, your expertise, dealing with saints at war.
56:58Here's Joseph Smith receiving revelation about the coming, at least in the beginning here, the coming civil war.in the United States.Dominant in the Lord's interest and instruction here is the 30 years hence approximatelyoutbreak of a civil war that will take this nation to its knees.It's a remarkable revelation when eventually the civil war happens.This very revelation will be cited outside of the church as evidence that there is a prophetamong us that Joseph could have had the foresight that this revelation could take place in thewindow of time, a Christmas day in 1832. It is a remarkable, remarkable thing. But it speaks
57:49also dispensationally, millennially, of the future and of the place of war going forwardas the dispensation unfolds. I've said it already in our discussion today thatthe adversary has found a way to divide the human family over the course of time.I have a volume that I picked up many years ago, 5,000 years of war.You realize that this is a very continual.We want an optimism about it, but we don't see an exit ramp for war to go away.It has been sadly such a feature over time.This very day, it's interesting. I have a phone, like all of us, they're there, even when we don't want to think about it.
58:43I just had an alert that yet another wave of missiles has been launched and thwarted. Fortunately, in the Middle East, we're in the midst of a conflict that is complex.We pray for those who are in harm's way that are the innocence, as we typically brand them. And for those who aredoing their very most to defend liberty.This is such a powerful idea when we think of the book of Mormon.It's really not a subject that comes up as frequently in the doctrine covenants,but when it comes up, it's very purposeful.We can go back and we see through the experience we generally describe as the MormonBattalion experience during the Mexican-American War,
59:33and then also through the Utah War or expedition, as it was more commonly known at the time, 1850s,that our saints are involved in military-type action.Well, let's take a look at some of these verses and see what we've got.Hank, maybe you'd be kind enough to read, try the first three verses if we can.Let me read a little bit.Section 87, 1 through 3.Verily, thus saith the Lord, concerning the wars that will show.shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually
01:00:08terminate in the death and misery of many souls. I look that up. The American Civil War,the modern estimate, modern revised estimate of deaths in the modern Civil War, 850,000, the deadlessconflict in U.S. history. Deaths also, many deaths from disease, not just the fighting. The time willcome that war will be poured out upon all nations beginning at this place for behold the southern statesshall be divided against the northern states and the southern states will call on other nations even the nation ofgreat britain as it is called they shall also call upon other nations in order to defend themselvesagainst other nations then war shall be poured out upon all nations and verse four talks about slavesrising up against their masters marshalled and disciplined for war then i think bob
01:01:03isn't the rest of the section about further wars into the future?Sure.Let's isolate a little bit on those early verses and what that describes in terms of the civil war,the war that really took this nation to the brink of disaster.Of course, we have presiding over the country at that time, a young leader who comes fromIllinois, which is a really interesting story all by itself in connection with church history,Abraham Lincoln. I visited his boyhood home last summer. It was really great to go and see the beginningsof this remarkable voice for democracy and freedom. It's a painful experience, but it seems
01:01:44somehow necessary in the refiner's fire of what this nation would eventually become. The statisticthat you just gave, Hank, compares well to numbers that I brought with me here today as well.You see varying estimates, but it really was a terrible, terrible moment in history.When we catch the essence of what's happening here, the rebellion in South Carolina,there's a whole discussion there about federal versus states, rights, and tensions.There's tariffs that are coming into play that the rebellion connects with that.More so even is the question of slavery.I'm not really a trained military historian, so I wouldn't want to assume any great authoritative voice in describing how much of what happens in the early going of the war is to finally stamp out slavery, slavery which is at that time a global issue, not just one with the United States, but the north and the south are really dividing themselves along some pretty hard,
01:02:52vast lines. When the rebellion begins, when the war commences, we see this upsurgeon violence and the wargoes longer and takes a greater tool than any could have envisioned at the time. But as finallythe guns are silenced, talk about Appomattox in 1865 and we finally have the cessation of hostilities,it's going to open a path toward a much brighter future for the nation.Most of what my study of war has entailed has involved global conflicts from there forward.The last portion of Section 87 gives us some understanding about the consistency of that pattern, what that will mean, what that will bring in whatever nation and being observant, as the Articles of Faith describes, of the calls to arms that nations have, are Latter-day Saints in whatever setting,have answered those calls.And as I said earlier, have been at the forefront of making a contribution.
01:04:00Talk to any veteran of true wartime service,that is, being involved at the battle's front, if you will,they have that consistent plea that those of us who have been there,who have fought in these terrible events, these tragic wars,we sure wish that they could come with a better way of solving their problem.the nations of the worldthan this approachbecause it is so hard
01:04:28and of course it's not justas you and I have offereda pank of casualty counts ofthose that die who areinjured in the bodybut also in the mind and whatthe returning soldier brings back homeand we talk about this
01:04:44in the area of mental health andthe residualthings I've talked to spouses of veteransthat have said after a long andlife, they've lived with this recurring nightmares and the mental health issues. We know thatsuicide and other evidences of the burden that these soldiers bring home is one of the coststo society, again, of these terrible events we call war. We want to get away from that pattern.We want to be peacemakers as we take on the name of Christ, a voice,
01:05:22of advocacy for moving away from war. Certainly that's the call of the scriptures. Even though thisgives us information about what we can expect in the future, it's a prophecy of that kind, 1832,looking forward to our day. Still, our call is to reject violence and war. We can talk aboutjustifications for when war is warranted, if you will, but that's almost a different kind ofdiscussion for a different day, I think. Instead, why it's sobering, we still can have the hope that we,you and I can make a difference and being voices for peace. John, we had two episodes last year in theBook of Mormon on the war chapters, one with Dr. David Boren and the other with Dr. Justin Top,who's a chaplain. We did talk about that there, Bob, the justification and the when and where
01:06:14of war. If we're not going to do that today, Bob, what do you want to do? I want to tapinto your expertise here. I want to talk about Saints at War. How has it been for youreading these stories, putting together these stories, writing these stories. You listenmore than you speak. You really don't need very many prompts or questions to a veteran who'shad that kind of experience, but what they're able to give you a close feeling of what that'slike. For any of us, it's summertime here in Utah Valley and wherever your listeners are.It's a time of year that we have events such as the 4th of July and others like that,where we commend those who have done so much for the liberties and freedoms that we enjoy.
01:07:08If you have a veteran in your family, if you, a veteran of your ward, we may want to learnmore about their experience and how we approach that can matter that we really demonstratefirst and foremost an interest in them. Yes, commending their service, never asking them to sharemore than what they're comfortable in disclosing about their experiences. I counted as cherishedmemories interviewing some of the very most humble individuals that you can imagine from reallyobscure settings sometimes, yet pillars of their community that have done so much anddemonstrated resiliency from the difficult things they've encountered. Just last week, II had a good brother from a little Beaver, Utah.
01:07:53I was teaching gospel doctrine in my ward, and lo and behold, I looked down, and there is my friend, Howard Bradshaw, from Beaver, Utah, and he's sitting on the front row, and he's a veteran of the Korean War, if you can imagine that.In fact, his face is on the cover of one of the volumes.I had the good fortune of authoring, and he was spry and in good condition.I even asked if he would be kind enough to introduce himself to those present.He stood in place and at 98 years strong, he shared a little bit about himself and our acquaintance.One of the reasons I mentioned him is because part of what he shared with us back when I interviewed him those 20-plus years agowas images of the first baptisms that he witnessed and was a part of in Korea.You can imagine they're at a seaside, dressed in white, these young converts are coming into the church.
01:08:50What we find is that wartime environment, as terrible as it is, has often served as a beginning place for the gospel to be introduced in a place, in a land.I think of humble individuals like the good brother I just described from obscure places, and I think of names that we're maybe more familiar with and would be aware of.two sharings, if I can, from names that would fit into that category.One from Elder Neill A. Maxwell, a long time ago that I sat with him, we filmed his interviewbecause we were in the early stages of developing a documentary work that was a companionto the very volume that John, you held up early in our interview today, Saints at War, World War II.Elder Maxwell was kind enough to make himself available for that, and he described,how that as an young 18-year-old man, he was sent to a place that he really didn't even know where
01:09:48on the map to locate. His mother wasn't all together in favor of his embarking on that serviceat that time, such a tender age. It goes forward, and he finds himself in Okinawa. He shares hisexperiences there. He shares gathering as just a small group of Latter-day Saints on occasionalservices that they could conduct and have the sacrament. I don't know if you've heard it said,but I think there's truth of the idea that there really are no Sundays in wartime. Here they were,they had the priesthood, and this is a distinctive thing about our faith, is they would have thepriesthood so they could conduct that service, they could have the sacrament, they were organized intogroups. This was the first in World War II, and they would have the emblems of the sacrament.
01:10:36but Elder Maxwell described it as being something of a roll call to know if there had been any casualties in the previous week.Now, that's sobering to me, the notion that someone might not show up this week that was here in the previous meeting.He shared that, but I also remember his saying as part of the interview that he felt he was so fortunate.They never came to hate the enemy, that he was spared that kind of,emotion of true hatred for the enemy, that he just conducted his service as best he could,obviously facing danger on a daily basis. Little did he know that many years later he wouldreturn to that same place to Okinawa to dedicate a church worship edifice. To hear him talkabout that and reflect on those experiences was a powerful, inspiring, really opportunity that I
01:11:40recall very well. We thank the O God for a prophet, President Nelson. He also made himselfavailable for an interview. This was just over 20 years ago when he was serving in the quorum ofthe 12 to describe his experiences serving during the Korean War in a military capacity. He visitedall the MASH units. I don't know if John, Hank, you're familiar, remember that series,television series of MASH, but imagine President Nelson being in a setting like that,going from MASH unit to MASH unit, and assessing the care being given to the ill andinjured in uniform, tells a remarkable story about having an opportunity to meet a youngLatter-day Saint, who had his legs amputated due to an event that he had experienced,
01:12:37how he didn't know quite what to say as he encountered this young man, but he expressedcondolences and he expressed his concern for him and hope for him.The young man sensing, I'm sure, a little bit of awkwardness there and what Dr. Nelsonwas able to say at that time, he turned to me and said, don't worry about me.I'm paraphrasing, of course, I'll be okay.I don't work out my salvation with my legs.I do it another way.I think it was a transformative experience for President Nelson.
01:13:13I've seen several apostles say that because of their service in wartime,it really had an impact on their discipleship going forward.And I think that must have been such an experience for President Nelson that day.coming up in part two of this episodeApparently this German soldier was one of themand so they flushed him out, he's running in retreat.This is where Dead Eye Dick, Benner Hall,comes into play where he is to kind of have that sharpshooter moment there
01:13:47and take him out.He shoots and misses, shoots and misses.He actually takes another shot at an inanimate objectthat he just knows what it is and how to get it,he knocks that out just fine.But then he goes back and tries to shoot the other guyand he can't do it.
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