Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 85-87 Part 2 : Dr. Ken Alford

Episode Date: August 1, 2021

How do Lydia and Edward Partridge’s suffering, humility, and service apply to Latter-day Saints today?  Dr. Alford returns for Part II and we discuss keeping a record of the Lord’s hand in our lives, what supporting our leaders may look like (or not), as well as the parable of the Last Days. Dr. Alford’s lifelong service in the US Army helps us relate to wars, rumors of wars, in the 1830s and today.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Part 2 of this week's podcast. Ken, one of the reasons I thought of you for this episode is because you have such an extensive history in the military, and this section talks about a revelation and prophecy on war. So I thought you might be, you might have a really interesting perspective on this one. So I'll let you take it from here. Section 87. Yeah, this is interesting. And it's interesting that it comes on Christmas Day. So I think it's first important to understand that Christmas Day in the 21st century and Christmas Day in the 19th century are two very different kinds

of things. We have really commercialized Christmas and it's a really huge deal and it's the biggest shopping time of the year and that's not the case in the 19th century. In the 19th century they would acknowledge Christmas, they would recognize it, they would do family things, but it's not uncommon for you know, maybe children get a piece of dried fruit or something for Christmas. I mean, it's not, it is not the commercial event it is today. So it's not that unusual that Joseph, it's not like Joseph is shunning his family and going into a room seeking seeking revelation away from his family on Christmas.

We're gonna have a Joseph Smith Christmas this year. Everybody's going to get a piece of dried fruit because I want you to experience Christmas in the 1830s kids. I want you to know. I'm sure that they will be so excited. I'm sure you will be the father of the year in their eyes. This is coming at an interesting time, though. It's 1832. And again, communication is just so different. But nearby, Kirtland, which is where Joseph is living, is a little town called Painsville. And Painsville has a newspaper called The Telegraph.

And the Painsville Telegraph publishes just a few days before Christmas. So odds are, Joseph tries to stay current on current events. And so odds are that that, I believe it's 21 December, that issue has probably reached Joseph right about Christmas time. And in there, because there are copies that are extant today of that newspaper, in there it talks about color in the United States and plague in India and it talks about there's a big article in that newspaper about the notification crisis.

Because at this time, the notification crisis is occurring in South Carolina. And just very briefly, South Carolina is unhappy because of federal tariffs. And so they have said, we are going to leave the union if you keep the tariff in place. And we will establish our own government. It's the first real serious claim of, of secession. There had been other things like the whiskey rebellion and other things in American history, but they're not of the same castor scope. And this is an entire state that's threatening to leave the

union. And so that notification crisis is it's it's full blown. Now Andrew Jackson steps in and issues of proclamation against it and squashes the notification crisis. But but on Christmas day 1832 these things are on Joseph's mind and in Joseph's history he makes this statement. He says the ravages of cholera were frightful in almost all large cities on the globe and the plague broke out in India while the United States amid all her pomp and greatness was threatened with immediate disillusion. The people of South Carolina in convention assembled in November, so just the previous month, passed ordinances declaring their state a free and independent nation. So it really sounds like Joseph has seen

that issue of the of the Payne'sville telegraph. And so it's Christmas day. And this is one of the instances, this revelation on war. I would just tell you, we're not gonna talk about it in this episode, but you'll talk about it, John and Hank, in the next episode, you need to pair Section 87 with 88. Make them a set.

Don't treat them as just individual, revelations, treat them as bookends, if you like, because what Joseph gets on Christmas day is the revelation on war. But then the Lord takes Joseph, because Joseph is very concerned after receiving this revelation. And then the Lord takes him by the hand just a few days later, just a couple of days later and gives him section 88, which is just a wonderful, a couple of days later and gives him section 88, which is just a wonderful, wonderful revelation that speaks peace to his soul. And so I would look at those two revelations together,

but section 87. You've got one revelation on more, and one revelation on peace. You've got more in peace right next to each other. And right next to each other, and I think that the Lord gives 88 as kind of a tender mercy to Joseph because 87 is disturbing.

87 doesn't paint a very pretty picture of what's coming. But section 87 is one of the really rare instances in which one revelation of the doctrine and covenants provides insights into another revelation of the doctrine and covenants provides insights into another revelation of the doctrine and covenants. That doesn't happen very often. Most of the revelations kind of stand alone. But if you turn to section 130 in verses 12 and 13, and by the way, section 130, just a quick note, section 130 is kind of the poperee. If it was a Jeopardy game, section 130 would be the popery category because it changes topics about 18 times. It's notes from his scribe.

And they just basically take William Clayton's notes and put them right in the doctrine of covenants. And you can find those also on the Joseph Smith papers website. But the reason I send you to section 130 for just a minute is in verses 12 and 13 Joseph adds an interesting statement because he's he's summarizing section 87 and he says, I prophesy in the name of the Lord God that the commencement of difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will begin in South Carolina. It will probably arise through the slave question. And then he adds this really helpful insight.

This a voice declared to me. So Joseph received Section 87. That's a really helpful insight, I think, that we don't have in section 87. And Joseph says, a voice declared to me while I was praying earnestly on the subject. So Joseph sees the world in what in 1832 terms seems like the world in commotion. And you know, in 2021, we call that Thursday. But it's a lot of commotion for 1832. And Joseph sees that and knows these prophecies of the last day. But I find it interesting that it's declared to him by a voice. Now, he doesn't say it's the voice of

the Lord. That's possibly a presumption we might make, but it says that a voice declares as so, as you read section 87, recognize that Joseph is having this basically given to him by dictation, if you like. And so this comes in a very dramatic manner. This is not one of the sections where Joseph receives the basic idea from the Lord,

and then he's left to fill in the words as he talks about in other places. This one comes full-blown, and he receives this kind of verbatim. He also says he was praying earnestly on the subject, which we don't find in section 87 either. I don't think. So yeah, I think section 130, just really helpful. It's just a little tiny tidbit. It's just found there in those two little verses, but I think it's helpful for us to understand. And also, I think it helps us understand why this has such an impression on Joseph,

that he is hearing this, you know, this is being dictated to him. Now interestingly, this section does not get added to the doctrine and covenants until 1876, just right before Brigham passes from mortality. It's one of the sections that's added late, but what happens is it's a well-known section. And missionaries actually carry handwritten copies of what we call section 87 as they go prosoliting, especially as they prosolite in the southern states. And when the Civil War breaks out, Fort Sumter is fired upon April 12, 1861, and last for a couple days before the surrender reform, Major Robert Anderson surrenders to General Bull regard. Just the fifth of May, so the fifth of May, 1861, so just three weeks after Fort Sumter is attacked by South Carolina forces. The Philadelphia Sunday Mercury newspaper

publishes a copy of Section 87. Apparently a missionary in the Philadelphia area must have grabbed a reporter or went to the editor or did something. Publishes a copy of section 87 apparently a Missionary in the Philadelphia area must have grabbed a reporter or went to the editor or did something I don't know if we know the Genesis behind how they got the copy but the Philadelphia Sunday Mercury publishes the the revelation in its entirety and then I love this I love this it has kind of a Subheading when you find a copy of that article and it says, have we not had a profit among us? And I just love that. This is in a non-Latter-day St. Newspaper, but publishing this because now in 1861, this 1832 revelation has taken on a whole new look.

I think I read that that was reprinted in England too. The revelation is actually reprinted several times. The way 19th century newspapers work is once somebody's brave enough to publish it, they would send copies of their papers to other newspapers, and it's very common that an article will be published and it would normally say as appeared in the Philadelphia Sunday Mercury and then they would just reprint the whole article because it's hard to get news in the 19th century especially the first half of the 19th century. So it is republished and I believe it is actually even republished in Britain. So the revelation

is known, missionaries are using it, but again, recognize it doesn't actually appear in the doctrine of covenants itself until 1876, along with many other revelations that are added by Orson Pratt at that time. But I think this is just interesting. And we tend to tie this revelation to the Civil War, and it absolutely has a Civil War connection.

I mean, it's very clear because it talks about wars will shortly come to pass in verse 1, beginning in South Carolina with their rebellion. They'll terminate in the death and misery of many souls. We still don't know how many people are killed in the American Civil War, but the number is north of 600,000. And compare that to the population of 1860. Compared to the population, that's about like 30 to 35 million people today. Oh wow. It's a huge number of people. I want to mention this book, Civil War Saints, that Ken is the editor of, and it lists every every known Latter-day Saint who may have been involved in the Civil War or a little bio in the back.

And whether they the thing that struck me was somewhere on the side it looks like from my browsing at most around the side of the Union and somewhere even on the side of the Confederacy which I thought was interesting. And that's, there were, there was great success prior to the Civil War in the South. Jedadaya M. Grant was a missionary there in Tazewell County, Virginia especially, and had great success. And there were actually several branches of the church in the South, especially in Virginia, when the war broke out, and they were loyal to their state.

And so there are many, many Confederates. When we did Civil War Saints, we were able to find 384 Latter-day Saints. That number, we've kept growing it as we found additional sources. It's up to, I think it's 412 or 413 now. And most fought for the Union, some Latter-day Saints fought for the South. And then some, we have three or four who fought for both. They're called galvanized Yankees,

and they were Confederates to begin with, and then they were captured, and put in a prison camp, and the Union Army did a really smart thing. They said, if we keep them in prison, we have to feed them, and it costs us money. But if we let them take an oath of allegiance, we can let them out, and they'll put on the Union Blue. So what these guys would do is they thought, boy, as soon as I get out, I'm going to see my Confederate buddies and I'm going to first battle, I'm going to take my Union Blue off and run over to Johnny Rebside and be a Confederate again. So what the Union Army did was assign them to duty in the West and there was actually a

unit of galvanized soldiers at Camp Douglas in Salt Lake. No fighting for them. No civil war fighting for them. They got in some Indian skirmishes, but no civil war fighting. There's one fun story that we found while I was doing civil war saints of a guy who was born William H. Norman, and he got captured outside of Nashville, the Battle of Nashville, and was taken up to Camp Douglas, which was a prisoner of war camp outside Chicago. And he signed an oath of allegiance and joined the Union Army. He was planning to defect, but they sent him out west, and on his way out west, the war

ended. And when the war ended, he said, this is stupid. I don't want to be a Yankee. I certainly don't want to be a Yankee out West. And so he defected. He went AWOL and changed his name to John E. Davis. Well, Johnny Davis, to make a long story short, dates a Latter-day Saint-Girl in Piotre Nevada and joins the church and is baptized under his fake name, Johnny Davis. He goes on a mission, and receives a mission call under his pseudonym, Johnny Davis, and he is endowed in the temple under the name Johnny Davis. It's not his real name.

He never tells his wife, he never tells his wife, and he's married to her like 60 years, and he never tells her that he was a defect to her like 60 years and he never tells her that he was a defector. Yeah, he went AWOL and his family didn't know and the way they piece it together, they finally pieced it together that William H. Norman and Johnny Davis were the same guy. But as Johnny Davis, he told people he fought for the South, he never told him he served as a Yankee.

He was just, I guess, so embarrassed about it. But the way they found it out very briefly was he was the Ward Clerk in a place called Annabella, Utah. And what he did, it was common at the time on your reports to Salt Lake for membership attendants is to request people to do temple work for deceased people from that area because it was a long way to go to the temple. And so he wrote a note and said, would you please do work for, and he gave the names of his parents. And so because one of his descendants, one of his descendants went into Macon, Georgia,

and tried to find the Davises because he talked about growing up there. And there wasn't a single Davise in the entire county when the Civil War began. So they said something's wrong with this record. But anyway, it's kind of a fun story that I just find it interesting that somebody's willing to be baptized, go on a mission, and endowed under a name that is not theirs and that never tells their wife that that is that's a fascinating story. Maybe our listeners might like to know some of them may be familiar with the Saints at War project that Robert Freeman did down at BYU with the World War II and also the Korean War and brother Alphard tell them you've been involved with a new one, relatively new, isn't it?

The St. S. War in Iraq and Afghanistan? Yeah, St. S. War began in about 2000. It's a BYU project. It was actually the two directors when it began. We're Dennis Wright and Robert Freeman. Then they let me come on when I joined the faculty in 2008 actually in 2005 I started helping them collecting stories when I was still on active duty and so they've done

19th century Saints at War and We had a conference here a couple years ago about World War I, Saints at War, and then they've done a volume and videos on World War II and Korea and Vietnam. And then in January of 2020, I released the latest volume in that series, which is about the Gulf War and the conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan, sharing stories of Latter-day Saints that have participated. And so if any listeners have stories of conflict where they've served in a war zone as a Latter-day Saint,

the BYU Saints at War Project is still happy to receive your stories. Bob Freeman handles Vietnam and before and I handle post Vietnam. So we just make that, make that an open invitation because we're archiving those stories in the BYU special collections so that they'll, they'll be there. But somebody will have those and that's, that's, it's a wonderful thing that you've done. I talked to Robert Freeman about, well, let me send you my dad's story. He was introduced to the church during the war. Is that okay?

And he said, sure, we'll take it. Absolutely. Anyway, so section 87 is just interesting. You know, it introduces, it prophesies the Civil War in verse one. Hey, Ken, can I ask you a question before we move on from verse one? I don't know if I was taught this when I was a youngster, but can you describe the death and misery of the Civil War? The Lord says in verse one that this war, this American Civil War, that is prophesied there in verse one that this war, this American Civil War that is prophesied there in verse one. And by the way, in the book of commandments and revelations, in the second volume when

this is recorded, it's recorded as a prophecy. Most of them are recorded as revelations. This is recorded as a prophecy. But it says it will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls. And I think it's important to note that as it says in verse 2, and the time will come when war will be poured out upon all nations beginning at this place. If you look at it, some people, many historians have actually called the American Civil War, the first modern war. And war kind of takes a turn at the Civil War. The Civil War has many elements of what we would consider as modern war. The populations become

involved. Prior to the Civil War populations that were not military were pretty much left out of the wars. The armies would clash, but the populations didn't bear the brunt. That changes in the Civil War. We have cities being attacked and burned, we have Sherman's March to the Sea, we have cities laid under siege, we have entire cities destroyed, and that trend has continued up to the present. And that really, you can kind of see that beginning with the Civil War. You know the Lord always knows exactly what he's talking about. He defines it here very clearly and that death and misery of many souls. The Civil War is what's happened is the Civil War,

it's called the First Modern Battle but it's such that the tactics of the armies involved are still basically Napoleonic, and yet the weapons of the war are post-Napoleonic. We have repeating rifles. We have Gatling guns that are just basically mid-19th century machine guns, and yet we have tactics that are still based on when you carried muskets. The rifles in the Civil War, just that, they're rifles. A rifle, the difference between a rifle and a musket is a musket is a smooth bore, a smooth barrel. When you shoot a ball down it, it literally bounces down the barrel and goes flying out, and it goes out at any number of angles. And so the reason they would stand the soldiers close together is so that when you fire lots of bullets,

maybe some of them will bounce in the right direction. But fire is not very lethal from muskets. Many shots go into the ground or over their head. But there was a development prior to the Civil War called rifling, in which they put a series of grooves in the barrel, so that as the bullet is fired, it spins and it fills up, it expands very quickly and fills up the barrel and spins it a high velocity and comes out spinning and it's like throwing a football as a spiral. If you put that spin on it, you can throw it very accurately and the bullets became very accurate.

They were called meneballs. Yet they were using tactics from Napoleon and still bunching together closely, so you have very accurate fire and bunched together soldiers. And the result is devastating. There are accounts where the majority of a unit will be wiped out sometimes in almost a single day. And these are large caliber bullets when they hit you. They don't just break bone and go through. They hit bone and then slide.

And the wounds are horrendous. It's death and misery of many souls is just an accurate phrase. But then the Lord says that it's going to be poured out on all nations. And if you look, again, you can almost use the Civil War as a dividing line in the world's history. And just looking at what's happened in the 20th century, there have been some accounts that said in the entire 20th century century there may have only been a few days without war somewhere in the world. You know, the 19th century, most of the century is it's predominantly peaceful across the world. There are wars and various things, but there's a good deal of peace in the 19th century and certainly centuries

before. Never entirely peaceful, but that changes in the 20th century and certainly centuries before. Never entirely peaceful, but that changes in the 20th century and there's just not peace. And I mean, World War 1, you have maybe up to 25 million people killed. World War 2, you have up to maybe 72 million people killed. At about the same time as the Civil War, you have the Taipei Rebellion in China. It may have killed 30 million people. You've got other rebellions in China, the Dungan rebellion that killed up to 12 million people. There's wars in the Republic of the Congo, almost at the turn of the century to the 21st century that kills 5 million people. The Korean War kills millions of people.

Vietnam kills millions of people. Afghanistan, there have been millions of people. Vietnam kills millions of people. Afghanistan, there have been millions of people die in the conflicts between the Soviet Union and the United States experience there that millions have died. I mean, it's just when the Lord says that it will be poured out on all nations, it is very, very literal. We won't see peace.

If there were just a few days of peace in the 20th century, there have been zero in the 21st century. And probably, quite frankly, there will be zero in the 21st century until the Lord returns. That war has just been poured out. This is a sign the Savior was very clear. War and rumors of war is one of the most distinct signs of the last days. I mean, why does a third of the Book of Mormon address war? Well, that book is present, Vence and said, is prepared for us. And those prophets were inspired to the Lord to know that we live in a period of war. How wonderful it will be when that all ends, but that is not yet. You know, only the dead have seen the end of war

in our current state and mortality. As you look at section 87, in verse 3, there's another interesting thing here. It says that the southern states will be divided against the northern states, okay, so it gets the breakdown of the war. And then it says that the southern states will call upon Great Britain and they do. The south actually sends two formal emissaries over to the quarter St. James and appeals for support, for financial support. And Great Britain, depending on which account you read, comes fairly close to providing formal recognition to the South, because why they are the industrial heartland of the world at that time, because of the British Empire, and they are fed by American cotton. And so cotton is king, and they don't do it because the North has some spectacular victories

that are timed perfectly that stop the brits from doing that, but the Lord gets it right. He knows they're going to make that appeal. And then it says something really interesting in verse 3. It says, and they shall call upon other nations in order to defend themselves against other nations. And so the question is, who is they in verse three? And the way English works is the antecedent of a pronoun is normally the closest noun. And that happens to be great Britain. And so it's saying that great Britain, the time will come when they will call upon other nations. Well, when does that occur? I would turn to World War One, and that's when we have the first allies in axis, and we have, and note what it says. And again, the Lord always

gets it right, doesn't he? It says there at the end of verse three, and then, so what's that, and then, meaning, after Great Britain has appealed for help. And then, war shall be poured out upon all nations. If war is poured out upon all nations, it will be a war of what kind. It will be a world-world war. And in World War One, that's exactly what happens. The Lord's not a good guesser. He has seen the end from the beginning. And he's just telling Joseph what he knows is going to happen. There's no guessing involved here. The Lord has seen it all. He knows how this dispensation ends. He knows how this dispensation is going to play out and he's just again, he's pulling the curtain back for Joseph and he's saying I'm going to give you some insight here on the last days. This is what's going to happen.

I'm going to give you some insight here on the last days. This is what's going to happen. And then he identifies in verse 4, he says, and it shall come to pass after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters. Now, Joseph L. Wurzlin, who was an apostle, he's the father of Joseph B. Wurzlin, who we know from recent years. But Joseph L. Wlin said in 1958 in general conference, he said, in many cases, I'm quite sure we all think this has to do with the slaves of the Southern states, but then he said, but I believe brothers and sisters that it was intended that this referred to slaves all over the world. And so think of what happened since the Civil War. Slaves in the United States, slavery was made illegal. We added amendments to the Constitution, giving rights, and and slaves in the Northern hemisphere in the

United States were freed. But beginning at about that time, serves in Russia and folks that are in slavery conditions in China and across the world begin fighting for their freedom. And it begins kind of this march of history at Joseph's time when he receives this revelation, a good proportion of the world's entire population lived in what we would consider today's slavery. And yet the Lord tells Joseph, it's going to end. It's going to start here, but it's

going to end. And then in verse 6, it says, and thus with sword and bloodshed, the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn. And then note this, the Lord draws on a wider set, if you like, of latter-day signs of the times. And the Lord says, the earth shall mourn, and with earthquakes, and plague, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also. Shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath and indignation and chasening hand of an Almighty God until the consumptive consumption degree has made a full end of all nations. And so in the last days we know that there's going to be all kinds of things. Nature itself will be in commotion. And I find that one with earthquakes interesting. I always take my students. There's a website that tracks worldwide all of the earthquakes. And there was a general authority talk. I

will have to look it up. I think it was, I believe it was elder hate, who in the 90s talked about earthquakes and how there had been two major earthquakes in the 1920s and four and then 15 as the various decades, but they never got very high. Well now we are several decades beyond even his talk. And so this website records earthquakes around the world in the last 30 days. And I checked it before we started this recording today. And in the last 30 days, just the last 30 days, now remember, Elder Hates said that there were two major earthquakes in an entire decade.

Okay, so that's 120 months, two major earthquakes. And I think they counted it as like 6.0 and above. And just the last 30 days from the recording of this broadcast, there have been 15 major earthquakes, 6.0 and above. There was a 7.3 earthquake just yesterday in China. And so when it says, you know, earthquakes is a sign of the times, you can chart that one on a graph. That's one of the signs of the times that you can chart that one on a graph. That's one of the signs of the times that you can literally chart. And it's always like that.

I've seen it as high when I do this with my students in class. One time I did it and we counted 63 earthquakes in 30 days. That class happened to be right after the earthquake that caused the tsunami in Japan, with the Fukushima problem. And there had been major earthquakes and an aftershocks that counted themselves as a major earthquakes And so we've gone from two in a decade to 15 in the last 30 days so in one one hundred and twenty-th of the time we have seven times more earthquakes

so yeah again the Lord the Lord gets it right and earthquakes. So yeah, again, the Lord gets it right. And then in verse 7 it says that the cry of the saints and the blood of the saints shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabbath. And a lot of times when we read this in Sunday school or church lessons, I've heard people read this and they say the Lord of the Sabbath, thinking of Christ being, you know, that this is, he's the Lord of the Sabbath. That's not what this word is. This comes from a Hebrew word that means hosts or armies. This is a very militaristic title of the Savior, that he is the host of the armies of Israel. He is the general. He's the five star. And he is the host of the armies of Israel. And that's what this is referring to. And I find it just interesting that that's the phrase he uses in this discussion of war. He identifies himself as the supreme general of all the armies. And so this is just such, I just find this just an interesting, interesting section.

President Gordon Behingley, I remember very distinctly in the October conference of 2001, it was just a few weeks after 9-11, when the World Trade Towers came down and the Pentagon was attacked. By the way, several friends of mine were burned and I had worked in the Pentagon and in the wing that was destroyed. I was then serving at West Point at the military academy, but I knew that. And interestingly, just in a side, the wing that got hit by the terrorist plane was the one, the Pentagon has five wedge shapes because it's a, it's a Pentagon. So it goes into the center and it makes a wedge. They call them, call them wedges. And the one wedge that had been remodeled and strengthened was the one that

got hit by the plane. So the terrorists hit the one that did actually the least damage. If they'd hit any of the others, it would have been much more catastrophic, but that's an aside. But as we were watching General Conference, and we watched it from West Point, President Hinckley during the conference was, I mean, he stood up to speak, and he was literally interrupted at the podium. It's the only time I can think of that happening. He's handed a piece of paper and he paused for just a second and he read the piece of paper and then he told Latter-day Saints that were there doing it live and also those watching it

that he had just been notified that an attack had begun by the United States against that an attack had begun by the United States against the Taliban in Afghanistan. And then he gave a talk called the Times in which we live, and it's a talk that is well worth reading. It addresses these things, and he talks about the fact that we as much or more than any people hate war, but that there are those who are bent on bringing it to us. And he made a similar comment in a 1970 speech at BYU to a devotional that he gave there and let me just quote a little bit about from that. He said, this is President Hinckley. He said, war is a grim and living testimony that St.

and lives. War is our greatest cause of human misery. It is a destroyer of life. It is the promoter of hate. It is the waster of treasure." But then he said, but, until the Prince of Peace comes to reign, you know, until the Millennium begins, there will always be tyrants and bullies, be tyrants and bullies, empire builders, slave seekers, and despots who would destroy every shred of human liberty if they are not opposed by the force of arms. That, you know, Satan has sway right now on hearts and minds of many men and women, and there is evil in the world.

And the Lord, I think, in section 87, was just warning us of that. And letting us know that, you know, this is, the last days, this has got to be the coolest time ever to live. You know, we just see things in just stark outline. Evil is evil and good is good. It's just, it's becoming just so black and white, but there is evil in the world.

And so Dave was a colonel in the Gulf War, and he was sending his A-10s up. The A-10s are most beloved, plain by the army, because it does close ground support. But Dave was flying his A-10s up. The A-10s are most beloved, plain by the army, because it does close ground support. But Dave was flying his A-10, which is basically a cannon with wings on it, okay? And they call them warthogs,

and they're not quite as pretty as a warthog, but they do the job. And so they were flying over a raki airspace. And Dave said that the ris were firing missiles at him, and one of the missiles actually exploded right by Dave's plane. And it actually put, they counted later, it put almost 300 shrapnel holes in his plane. It blew the rudder off the back, and it took out his tail fin,

and it just peppered his plane with these trapezoidal chunks. But Dave said, I pushed on the stick and he said I still had control and it turned out they checked and found out later some of those trapezoidal pieces had missed the hydraulic lines by a millimeter. But none of his hydraulic lines were hit. So I checked the stick and he said it was rough, and the reason it was rough is because his tail had basically been blown off.

He said, I had my wingman fly up beside me, and I asked my wingman, hey, how does it look? He said, quite frankly, sir, it looks really bad. He said, I think you're going down. Dave said, no, I've still got stick here. He turned the plane around and started flying it back towards Saudi Arabia. And and actually landed the plane in Saudi Arabia. It was so damaged. He told me that they actually had to throw the plane away.

That they weren't even able to save it. It was so damaged. We've got I've got pictures in the book of the plane. And it's that there's hog. But Dave said that before he left England, because he had been stationed in Great Britain before the conflict, and they flew his unit over from there, he said, before we left England, our state president, President Baker, gave us all a priesthood blessing. And he said, in the priesthood blessing, I was promised that I would return to my family. And he said, I had just been hit by a missile over a raki airspace. And he said, it looked pretty bad, but he said, the first thing I thought of basically is President Baker through the power of the priesthood promised me I'm coming home. So I'm coming home. I'm flying this, I'm flying this blown up plane all the way back and he and he did

That's the first story Another another story I tell you this one this was Funny because there are funny incidents. It's not always serious in a war zone this one happened to my good friend Chaplain Vance theodore and Vance was a was a young Chaplain in the in the goal for And he was serving with with a combat unit. And before he'd left, before they actually deployed to the goal, they gave him a list, you know, take so many pairs of uniforms, so many socks, so many pairs of boots, those kinds of things.

Well, he went to the PX, the post exchange, to buy black socks to wear inside his boots. And everybody else who was deploying had beat him to it and all the socks were gone. And he said, oh, I need socks. So he told his wife, he said, man, I need socks. And she said, well, I'll, I'll fix you up. I'll fix you up. So, so she gave him several pairs of, of black looking socks. And he went to the Gulf War.

So in the Gulf War, they would do their laundry just kind of in just buckets of water sitting on a tank or a humvee or something. And so Van said he put his uniforms in this bucket of water and put some soap in and you know, washed it around with his hands. And he said all of a sudden it just went just went bad. He said the water just turned just a really bad color and he said oh something's wrong so he pulled his uniforms out and his socks that had gone in his black came out almost white and so he got a hold of his wife real fast

and you know found out what had happened and what what she had done creatively and rightfully so, she had died some white socks for him. But she wasn't able to find black dye and she used purple dye. Now purple dye is made of red and blue. And apparently when it separated in the water, the red part came out and it dyed his uniforms pink. And so here's this, here's this Latter-day St. Chaplin in this hardcore combat unit wearing pink uniforms.

And in a combat setting, it's not like you can go around to the corner store and buy a new set of uniforms. So, so Vance said, I had to wear pink uniforms for several weeks until eventually washed out. And I'm sure that those combat soldiers that he worked with were just understand. Yes, sir. And never said anything about their chaplain wearing pink uniforms. But for example, in Afghanistan, known as OEF, the Operation Enduring Freedom, was its formal name.

In OEF, William Black was driving a vehicle up a hill. They were trying to set up a lookout post. And all of a sudden, he said, the spirit just told me, stop. Just stop immediately where you are. Just stop and get out. So they stopped and got out. He actually backed up his vehicle a little bit. They sent a bomb disposal team in and 10 feet directly in front of him was a huge IED and improvised explosive device that would have just completely torn the vehicle up and killed everybody in the vehicle. But he said, the Holy Ghost Noah was there and just told us to stop. And so as a result,

they were able to disarm it and nothing bad happened. The church being organized in Afghanistan is this is unique among wartime experiences. While the war was going on, I believe for the first time in history, a district of the church was organized in Afghanistan. A Muslim country and it had very strict restrictions on that they couldn't proselyt to non-military people. They could proselyt to military people. There were several baptisms that occurred in the theater during the war, But the district was actually organized. And when they organized it, the district president reported through the area presidency, but also when he would come home at conference time, reported directly to the first presidency. And the district president, good friend of my

gene, Wichel said that one of the most touching moments of his life was when he walked into the room and President Monson stood and saluted him. He said that was a pretty neat experience and President Monson said, I'm just an old and listed Navy guy, but I'm pleased to salute you. Gene of the time was a retired Air Force officer, there was a civilian advisor. But the church met on Fridays,

they couldn't ever meet together. The church never, the district never met together. And they did something really unique is that with the support of Elder Holland and Elder Porter and Elder Noonschwander and other general authorities, but under the direction of Elder Holland, they put together a district conference on DVD. And they had talks from Afghanistan that they sent over to them via the internet that they added on the DVD and then Elder Holland and Elder Porter and other spoke in Salt Lake and they melded it together into a single conference DVD.

And during Elder Holland's talk. Well, let me just read it to you. I won't try to paraphrase Elder Holland. Elder Holland was talking to him because they printed a thousand copies of this DVD so that everybody in the district, regardless of where they were, and sometimes there was just one member in a site,

but they all would receive a copy of the DVD and they sent also copies to their families. And here's what Elder Holland had to say. He was the last speaker on the DVD for the District Conference. It was on the 5th of May, the year they did it. And he said, brothers and sisters, we've had a wonderful District conference with you. As I said at the beginning, I only wish I could see your faces. I wish I could have stood with you to sing as we stood here to sing. I wish that I could shake your hand. More than that, I wish I could lay my hands on the head of each one of you and give you a blessing.

And then he looks at the camera and he says, so, in lieu of being able to do that personally, I'm going to do it apostolically. I'm going to do it by the authority that is mined through this telecast and onto this DVD. And then he said, by the power of the holy milk, by the power of the holy priest that I hold, and the authority that I've been given, I pronounce a blessing on each one of you within the sound of my voice, recognizing that, you know, that would be through DVD. And the reach of this telecast, I do it as if indeed my hands were upon your head and with the power of the priest it upon you just that efficaciously. And then he blessed them, quote, each one of you, that although you are in harm's way daily, that you will have the powers of heaven upon you, including the attendance of

angels on your right hand and on your left, I bless you that you will know that you are being prayed for at home and abroad and especially by the leaders of the church here at headquarters, and abroad and especially by the leaders of the church here at headquarters, all of us, and we pray for your loved ones, wherever they may be, wherever home is. And then he bless them to quote, be man and women on a mission, and that you'll strive to help others to embrace the gospel and live their religion. I bless you that such a time that in such a time of war and such a period away from home will be a strengthening time and not a debilitating time. In the formation of your character and the strengthening of your faith, I bless you that you will draw nearer to God and that you will know how much all of

us need him in good times or bad in wartime or in peace. I bless you, he continued not to worry about your loved ones. I pronounce in this blessing a blessing on them as if they were in this congregation. And that was sent out to every every service member that they were aware of in Afghanistan. And the membership records that they tried to keep in Afghanistan changed every single week. They spoke over a dozen languages. I think they had members of that district from over 15 allied countries inside the country, but it was so successful that they duplicated it inside of Iraq. And when they created the district inside of Iraq, that the first district president was a guy by the name of Colonel Guy M. Hollingsworth. And Guy said that when they tried to organize the church in Iraq, you can imagine all kinds of difficulties came about.

They were able to organize it in Afghanistan because Jean, as a civilian, President Wichel, went back to Salt Lake and they took care of it in Salt Lake. But the president that was called in Iraq was a military colonel. And so he wasn't able to just, you know, get on a plane and go to Salt Lake to get set apart. And so they needed to bring a general authority into a rack and active war zone. And so he sent a request up the line. The church told him that Elder Paul B. Piper was called to do that. And so he sent a request up the military chain and said, may we have this civilian come into the war zone

to make me a president of a church group? And when the military stopped laughing, they said, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your,

you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of your, you're out of There's a war going on, son. The answer's not only no, but no. So, to make a long story short, President Hollingsworth was inspired to bring in Elder Bruce Carlson, retired four star, United States Air Force. Elder Carlson, as a retired four star, was able to speak a little bit differently. And so he got on, and there was communication between him and General Petraeus, and permission was miraculously granted for Elder Piper to enter the country of Iraq for 24 hours. And while there, he established the district and set apart the district presidency. And both the district presidency in Iraq and in Afghanistan

were given the keys of a state president, even though they were districts, so that they would have the full ability to help members of the church go through the repentance process. So it was a very unique, unique district, but really a really a great faith promoting story to see elder piper being able to go into an active war zone as a civilian for the purpose of establishing a military district of the church. There's, oh, there's, I got a book full of stories. I promise I won't share them all. But Elder William K. Jackson, who's now a member of the General Authority 70s, he was sustained in a recent conference, he served as an area authority out of India. And he was a doctor for the State Department.

And as a doctor for the State Department, his area of responsibility covered Afghanistan, which meant he had full rights to fly into Afghanistan and around the country. Exactly the kind of access that the Lord needed to help establish the gospel in Afghanistan. And so he tells some miraculous stories of catching helicopter rides at the very last minute and just those kinds of things. But the most interesting and I think miraculous story he tells us,

he was in Condahar. They were in a motorcade. He was in an upper-armored SUV and he had truck, well, arm trucks, truck gunships for lack of a better word in front of them and in back of them. And he had his briefcase that had both military and church business in it. And he said as they were writing along in this SUV, a car pulled up to the side of him and tried to track their convoy and got very close. And it was a suicide bomber. And he detonated a tremendous amount of explosives in their vehicle. It actually picked up this multi-tone SUV and through it and flipped it over and they landed a good way away. All they found of the car that exploded was the front bumper. The rest was vaporized. And what it did is it flipped them on their top and

the doors of the sub-armerant SUV were so heavy that they couldn't open the doors. And so they had to kick out the windshield and that was bulletproof glass and very difficult. But they kicked it out and they were stunned from the explosion. But he said he got out of the vehicle, they got everybody out safe. And he realized, oh, I left my briefcase in the vehicle. And so he started to run towards the vehicle to get his briefcase and he was tackled by a soldier

who said, are you crazy? That's gonna explode. And he said, just almost like it was on cue from a movie, the vehicle exploded. He said, if I'd gone back for the briefcase, I would have been killed. But as it was, he said, we had ringing in our ears for quite a while, but no one was in their vehicle. It was actually killed, although several of their guards and folks were killed.

But he said, the Lord protected us in that case. Another funny incident is got an essay from an officer, a helicopter unit commander, Scott Pays. I knew Scotty as a cadet at West Point. Scotty was killed in Afghanistan when his helicopter went down. He's buried here in Springville. But Scotty tells too funny stories. He was a real character. And he says, one of the weirdest things about going to church, this is in Afghanistan, he said,

is you have to take your rifle with you. And he says, once you get to church, what do you do with the rifle? He said, the rifle's too tall, and it's taller than the bench. And if you've leaned it up against the bench, then somebody stretches and knocks your rifle on the ground. And the tradition in the military is,

if your rifle hits the ground, you have to do pushups. So he said, if they knock my rifle on the ground, should I do pushups right in the middle of the sacrament talk? I'm not sure what I should do there. He said, but if I set it on the ground, then it'll get dirty. And I'll get yelled at for having a dirty weapon. He said, and if I do lay it on the ground,

do I point the rifle barrel at the speaker or the person sitting next to me who's sitting a little too close on the bench? He said, I'm just never quite sure what to do with my rifle. He also had another funny incident happen. He said, we'd fly over the the cities and he said, taking a page out of Gail Halverson's book from the Berlin Air Lift Uncle Wigglywings, the candy bomber. He said, we took bags of candy with us. He said, we, the people from home send us lots of candy and he said, as we'd fly over the villages, we would throw bags of candy out and then they would hit the ground and the kids had lots of candy. And so they would look forward to see in the American helicopters coming over. And he said

that he was flying 180. He said, I had this bag of candy and he said, I threw it out and I didn't see it hit. And he said, the kids were kind of gesturing at me like, hey, quit messing with those kind of things. And he said, I figured it must have just gone somewhere that he couldn't see or something. You know, maybe went in the bushes or something. But he said, when I landed, he said there on the left machine gun, what had happened was that the bag of candy, as he'd thrown it out, the wind and the bag of candy and the weight and everything was just right. The bag of candy went right across the barrel of the machine gun and impaled itself and stuck it, got stuck on the barrel of the machine gun. So he said, he said, I flew around with this bag of candy covering my left gun for that

whole flight. But he also, again, tells a story in a sacrament talk. This was given, I believe, the week before he was killed. He spoke in sacrament meeting there in Afghanistan. And he talked about an incident that happened at the Bogram Airfield, which was a very large military base and complex in Afghanistan. And he said, as we were flying back, and he was the company commander of the helicopter unit, he said, as we were flying back, he said, we received a distress call from the base.

And it said that there were hundreds, hundreds of agitated local Afghans who were threatening to storm the base. And they weren't armed, but they were angry. What had happened was, in the previous week, a minister in the United States had publicly burned a copy of the Kharan. And it inflamed people all across Afghanistan. And so they were going to assault the air base. And he said they had, we received the call on the wire that they had breached the first line of wire. They were approaching the military police who were armed and he said we were about to have a really

bad situation because they couldn't let them enter the base. And deadly force was being authorized. And so he said, I got the call and they said, basically fix it. And he said, here I am, I'm in a helicopter. How am I going to fix this? They're on the ground. There's hundreds of angry Afghans. They're upset. They're not wanting to be reasoned with. And he said, I'm fine helicopters back. And I'm supposed to fix it. And he said, and then he he said the spirit just told me what to do. He said I knew exactly what to do and so he said I radio to the gunships behind me. Here's what we're gonna do. We're going to shoot some flares to get their attention, some starburst flares and he said and then we're going to just fly

across the crowd at what they call treetop level but it's basically as low as you can go. And he said no weapons, he said we're just gonna do that. So he said they flew in, they buzzed the base first as I recall and then they flew in, shot their fliers off, got their attention and then went down just as low as he said we were just barely above their heads and these these helicopter gunships came roaring across this this crowd and it was one after another of they're doing it and then he said we we peeled in and went in and landed at the air base to see what else we needed to do but he said the, the shock effect, he said, if you've ever had a helicopter, a gunship come over you at about four feet above your head, he said, it's a pretty sobering event.

And he said, it was enough to shock the people into realizing this is about to turn really ugly. And he said, they basically just dispersed and went home. And he said, as we landed our helicopters on the tarmac, he said, we then saw the world's press. There were dozens of reporters because Bogram was such a large base. And he said that if this had turned into a shooting match, he said it would have been on front page of basically everywhere in the world the following day.

And he said, but the Holy Ghost knew how to diffuse that situation. And he said, my commander came running up to me and said, Captain, how in the devil did you know what to do? And he said, all I could do is smile at him and say, well, I just knew, sir. So there's just incident after incident where the holy ghost just reaches in and took care of people. But I love how section 87 ends. Section 87 ends on such an upbeat, no, you know, the Lord is an optimist, even as he's going, you know, to Gethsemane and then Calvary, he says, be of good cheer. And so section 87 ends with this

injunction and charge from the Lord. Wherefore, stand ye in holy places and be not moved. And he tells us how long to do that until the day of the Lord come, for behold it come with quickly, sayeth the Lord. Now his quickly and our quickly are probably a little different. But I love that he says Stangie and Holy Places and be not moved. And there's just some wonderful, wonderful prophetic commentary on that. President Nelson in just the April 2021 conference addressed that that statement. And he said often when the Lord warns us about parals in the last days, he counsels thus, and then he quotes section 87, Stangie and Holy Places and Be Not Moved. And then President Nelson says this,

these holy places certainly include the Lord's Temple and Meeting Houses, but, as our ability to gather in these places, these places has been restricted in varying degrees. We have learned that one of the holiest places on earth is the home. And then President Nelson added this little aside. Yes, even your home. Sister Larson, when she was on one of the General Boards in 2002, she said this. She said, the Lord said to stand in holy places, there are places where the spirit would never be.

You know where those places are. Stay away from them. Do not encourage a curiosity that ought to be stopped. Pay attention to what you're feeling so you'll know when you're feeling uneasy or unsure. And I mean, there's just, there's just so, I just think that such a wonderful phrase. When Elder Stevenson was presiding Bishop of the Church, this is before he was called into the Cormor of the Twelve, he said this in conference, he said, the demonstration of righteous courage will often be as subtle as to click or not to click thinking of a mouse, right? Missionaries are taught from preach my gospel when you choose to what you choose to think and do when you are

alone and no one is watching is a strong measure of your virtue. Yeah there's just just some some wonderful wonderful, wonderful thoughts. So I just love I just love the end of Section 87, you know, it's, it's so bring that we live in a time of war, but there is a way through this. Just as, you know, those military officers led convoys through Iraqi towns, there's, there's a way through the last days where we triumph where we win and This is the dispensation where the good guys and good girls win It's the only one all the other dispensations ended in sadness this one ends in a rousing and tremendous

victory and so You know living in this day and age we get these wonderful things, especially with electronics and all the ability with communication. But there are two sides of every coin. And on the other side of our coin is, we live in an age of war, and that's just the reality. So, but I appreciate all the Lord's,

you know, given us on this. And especially comments like Elder Holland made about, you know, the Lord knows who you are and what you're doing. And I think it's just important for each of us. Well, I can, it's obvious that soldiers and their families have a special place in your, in your heart, your research, your, your work. And I, I think that's a beautiful thing. John, it's, you're very similar in that you like to record stories,

but yours has, if you're gonna record, it has to do with an airplane, right? I'll minor a related to airplanes and flying, just because that was my interest. And, but very, very similar. And I just, I love the idea that as a soldier, you still have the priesthood, you still have to give to the Holy Ghost.

And the Lord still has his eyes on you, always has, always will. And these wonderful stories confirm that. You're not forgotten. You're in some of the toughest circumstances on the planet, but you're not forgotten. You're in some of the toughest circumstances on the planet, but you're not forgotten by God. And I'm so grateful for those inspiring stories. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah, I had such a good time. I felt like it was just story time. I just was like, everyone loves a good story. And we got a good dozen, I think. And I loved it.

I loved every minute of it, Ken. One quick short PS in Afghanistan, also I think in Iraq as well. There were incidents when the district president called an Elder's quorum president to function in one of the branches and never physically met him. He was interviewed via email and he accepted the call through email and then what they did is they arranged they had a they had a high council and then when a high counselor was going to be they they just worked it out where the next time they were going to have the two priesthood required people together, they would do that. And, and they even had a functioning relief society inside the district with a district relief society president. So just some, yeah, just some really unique experiences as far as organizing church. That it's that's fantastic. You know, it's something else.

I, I love about, about some of those situations that happen is when you have an Elder's Corn president who's a sergeant or something, and in his Elder's Corn he's got captains and majors and kernels. And all of a sudden the rank disappears and something else happens, which is exactly. And that happens quite frequently. Yeah. And in the temple, it's kind of the model for the temple is we all look the same in the temple with what we wear and the rank and worldly things disappear as well. I would also just share briefly, there's one unique story in the book.

I call him Brother Abraham. I don't give his full name. But there was one Afghan member of the church who joined the church and it's a long story that I won't go into here. But he joined the church in Germany after he'd escaped from Afghanistan. But then the Holy Ghost told him to return to Afghanistan. And he did so. And as far as we know, he is the only Afghan in history who has exercised priesthood in his own country.

And he served in the Elderscorn presidency in Kabul. And there's a whole bunch of stories we could share about his story. But I would just share that during the pandemic in February, about 18 of us were able to go with brother Abraham as he received his endowments in the Ogden temple. And the gospel net gathers far and wide. And what a pioneer. What a pioneer that guy is. Yeah, we still have behind it. It's always 1830 somewhere. It's always 1830 somewhere. Yeah. Well put it right there. Hey Ken, let me ask you a last question. You are a military historian. You're a church history historian. You're a scholar. You've been doing these things for, now you don't

look at it, but I'm going to say decades, multiple decades you've been doing. Unfortunately so. I think John and I would like to, and our listeners would love to hear is what Joseph Smith and his contemporaries and the restoration means to you personally as you've, as you've as you've dove in to all all of the documents and all of the stories. And you've even as a military historian have seen the the I would say some of the darkest sides of humanity. The most difficult sides of humanity which might make might turn you into you know someone who says oh God does not love his children right look at this look at these terrible terrible things that happen yet here you are. So I think our listeners would

love to hear from you on your personal feelings about the restoration. You know, as you look at it, I have found that the more I learn, and especially the more I learn about Joseph, I'm in no rush to meet Joseph, I will preface that, but that will eventually occur. I'm looking forward to being able to just thank him. The more I learn about Joseph and his calling and the way he exercised that Crazy heavy responsibility the more I love Joseph Smith Brigham Young made the statement he said I just want to shout hallelujah all the time that I ever knew Joseph Smith

and I only know Joseph you know kind of vicariously through his words and deeds and writings and scripture things that he recorded. But I would just echo Brigham. I think Brigham got it right. I just want to say, hallelujah, that I have learned about Joseph Smith, because Joseph has helped me approach the Savior better. I think without all the things Joseph gave us, I would have a harder time approaching the Savior.

Because the Savior that's portrayed outside of what we understand in the gospel through the restoration, it's not the full picture. And Joseph is just kind of, I don't know, he's just like, you know, the world's best teaching aid, if you like. And the more I learn about him Joseph surely isn't perfect but my goodness he comes as close I think as anybody I've seen and Joseph's intent always is to do what you know the what the what the Savior and the Father want what makes the Savior such a perfect Son was he always did the will of the father And I see that trade in Joseph Joseph makes mistakes. I mean he lets Martin take the hundred and sixteen pages and

You know Joseph makes the mistakes along the way But the thing that I just find so amazing is Joseph. I don't find him making the same mistake twice He is just the ultimate fast learner. You know, he'll make a mistake, but he doesn't make the same. I'm kind of in the, you know, normal Joe kind of school, made a mistake, and, you know, when I made that mistake again,

yup, it's still a mistake. But Joseph doesn't seem to do that. He just makes a mistake, fixes it moves on and I just I just love Just I don't know the insights that Joseph gives us just the ability Joseph figured it out Joseph just he just figured it out The heavens have probably been never been thinner than they were with Joseph Except the Savior himself.

Joseph just figured out how it worked. And as a result, holy smoke, look at everything we've got. I just love learning about Joseph and also those that associated with him. I really have just a huge feeling of gratitude for the early leaders of the church men and women, you know, who just laid this foundation. It says that in the doctrine of Covenant a couple of times, that their job was to lay the foundation. Now our job is to build the building and try to put the roof on and get things ready so that the Savior has a fully finished building to come to when the millennium starts.

But they got to lay the foundation. And oh my gosh, how hard that was and how great of a job they did. So I just, yeah, I guess I would just close where I started. You know, I just want to shout, hallelujah, all the time that I've learned about Joseph Smith, because he's brought me to my Savior, Jesus Christ. Joseph's a prophet, just in my mind, plain and simple, just Joseph's a prophet.

Can thank you so much for spending your time with us. My pleasure, thanks for the time. It's been such a joy and I think I think anyone listening is going to just you know shout out LaLouia. Great thank you. Well thank you again to Dr. Ken Alfred. Thank you to all of you who stayed with us in listening. We couldn't do this without listeners. So we love you. We're grateful for your support. We also couldn't do this without our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Swanson. And we have an incredible production crew. David Perry,

who is behind the scenes doing so much work, same with Lisa Spice, who is not, they're not getting enough credit, John, for all the work they do on this. Jamie Nielsen, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton, and Maria Hilton, thank you to our incredible team. And we hope you all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him. Thank you.