Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 94-97 Part 2 : Dr. Susan Easton Black

Episode Date: August 29, 2021

Were the early Saints required to observe their covenants by sacrifice? Dr. Black returns to explain how the Saints are preparing for temple covenants and how the Lord tempers their expectations of Zion. We also discuss how the Lord is anxious to bless the Saints with temple blessings, power, and protection.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. I think this might be John Johnson's favorite section of the doctrine of Covenants though. I would think so. Have that promise given to you in verses six and seven there? Complement from the Lord, you know? Yeah, that he can have eternal life. It's almost like he's being given a patriarch of blessing where he says he's a descendant from Joseph. I'm like, wow, you know, he's he's getting these amazing promises and it's interesting. The very day that that section was received June 4th 1833 father Johnson becomes a high priest. a high priest. So it's like, you know, the very day and he becomes a high priest, he's given these amazing promises, but he's also told, high promises are his and as much as you should keep my commandments.

And then you go, oh no, I want to know without that. I like the promises. I got to kick her in the end. I like the promises. I got to kick her in the end. So I have a question just in knowing that the two of you have been there probably many times, the John Johnson farm in Hiram. Hiram, does that go out of his hands at this point? And then the church like purchased it later on or Willard Bean did at some point. Is that how that? It's a later purchase that eventually falls into the hands

of the church, but Father Johnson has sold out. He doesn't like living across the street from Simon's writer, right? And you got the neighbor involved in trying at feathering. He's ready to get out. So he moves about 30 miles. And his house in Kirtland is actually

pretty close to the Kirtland is actually pretty close to the Kirtland temple. So you'd say, well, he got one of the choice lands of inheritance from saw, right? Yeah. And but you'd say for father Johnson, after becoming a high priest,

he's placed as a member of the Kirtland High Council. So in the stake, you've got basically one bishop, a Kirtland High Council, and you'd say for him he has financial problems. And you know, it's hard to say, but it seems like although we've talked about buildings, we're talking about finances. And each one of these sections, there's a about finances. And each one of these sections, there's a financial element. And for him, for other Johnson, leaves the church in 1837, and he dies in 1843, and is buried

outside of the Kirtland Temple in that small cemetery there. So Hank, next time you're there, which sounds soon, you know, you'll go out and see his grave. So I, next time you're there, which sounds soon. You know, you'll go out and see his grave. So I think one of the sad chapters in the question is, you know, remember the, you know, you get all these promises. And it's always the if, you know, in as much as you keep my commandments. One of his sons is going to end up coming to Utah. Is that Luke? Yeah, Luke comes to Utah. Yeah, so you know, you hope that the family's still with us, right? That's the hope that okay, I'm counting. I think yeah, Father Johnson were forever grateful to him. Yeah, I love it. I love it.

And the John Johnson farm is a memorial to him and his wife and what happened? I mean, if you not everyone's going to get the chance to go out there, but if you do get that chance, it is a it's a memorial. It really is to all the saints of that day, but especially John and Elsa Johnson. I think we need one for Miss Jocks, right? We need to Vienna Jocks Yeah, Vienna Jocks Also just that John Johnson farm. I mean section the Section 76 in the upstairs room there. It's so glad we have that that you can walk in there and and imagine that Incredible section 76 was such a what would a cubby call it?

A paradigm shifting amazing revelation about a game chain salvation in the afterlife and that we still have that that same sacred space is wonderful. Susan, what do I do with these wonderful, wonderful men and women who don't end up staying through the whole thing, right? We love to tell those stories of the Joseph Knight, the Parley-Pee Pratt, the Brigham Young, and their spouses who make it all the way, all the way, they go the distance. But then you have people like the Whitmer's and John Johnson and we can't discount them and their sacrifice but we also need to say endure to the end, right? Right, I think all of us eventually can look in our families, extended families and see those

that have made sacred covenants and have actually made some wonderful contributions to the church. You know, these missionaries that have sacrificed their time to knock on doors and bring people into the church. And then you look, where are they? And, you know, I think we leave the judgment in the hands of the Lord. I'm hoping I'm worthy to be able to shake me hand of Father John Johnson, you know, for his greatness of, I mean, his money was used to purchase that Peter French farm, at least part of it, and where the temple stands. I mean, for that alone, he did something great. alone, he did something great. And I guess none of us know what's going to happen in our lives. And I think we've all gotten hits along the way. You can't try to make a difference without

somebody neatly. And sometimes it gets too much, but hang in there you don't you don't want to lose the the spirit of the Lord You want the spirit with you always and let the George Lord judge. I Love that. I love that I it's it's sad to me that sometimes the people like the Whitmers or John Johnson or even Martin Harris Get a bad name because they had a time where they fell away. When saying, this, and this is not an easy time to be a member of the church, especially 1837, like you mentioned, in 1838, very difficult times. And speaking of difficult times, that takes us to section 97, right?

Can you believe we've made it? Yeah. Okay. Section 97 comes upon some really difficult times that are happening not in Kirtland but in back in Jackson County. We kind of alluded to this earlier. The setting heading says severe persecution. Can you tell us what's been happening there? Yeah so we know 1831, the saints are gathering now to the center place, like you've talked about, Hank, the center place there in Jackson County.

And by the time we pick them up in the summer now of 1833, you're looking about 1200 Latter-day Saints have moved out to Jackson. They've faced lots of problems with their neighbors who are, well, independent settled by people from Kentucky. There's slave owners, even Alexander Donovan, slave owner, right? And so you'd say there's been conflict back and forth, but now for the extreme. and forth, but now for the extreme. On July 20th of 1833, notice the revelation is August 2nd, 1833. But on July 20th, 1833, an independence, flames of hatred have been ignited, and you get four or 500 men devised to a plan, just literally a plan. You know, can you say a conspiracy?

I don't know, but they got a plan. You know, Joseph said I got a plan for the temple. Well, here's these four or 500, way too many for a committee, right? But four or 500, they plan that they're going to read Jackson County of all Latter-day Saints. And they say, and I quote, no Mormon shall in the future move to or

settle in this county. Now I've met a lot of letter D Saints and Jackson County. They're wonderful. But they say no more men shall in the future move or settle in this county that those now here, who shall give a definite pledge of their intention within a reasonable time to remove out of the county, shall allow it to remain unmolecid. In other words, we're going to get the rest of you guys. So violence breaks out. Remember that evening and morning star, WWFELPS is presses destroyed. The Gilbert and Whitney store, the things in the store now thrown out houses are pillaged church leaders Charles Allen Edward Partridge their Tard and Feather in the town square. I don't know if they remember Tard and Feathering but it's not road Tard's pine Tard.

tar and feathering, but it's not road tar, it's pine tar. And a lot of people in America are tared. Southern abolitionists, wife beaters, and on July 20th, 1833, Edward Partridge, Abishup, and a faithful member of the church, Charles Allen. A lot of people are tired, but when you feathered, it means you mock the man for what he stands for. He's like a chicken, you mock what he stands for. And then three days following this incredible abuse, these three days following, here comes some 500 men again. And they're armed with rifles, pistols, whips, clubs, and they're shouting,

we will rid Jackson County of the Mormons peacefully if we can, but forcefully if we must. And so at this point, you get leaders like Edward Partridge signing saying, hey, we'll be the ransom for the church. We'll step up. And we'll agree to leave Jackson County. And so they sign this and the saints are very frightened. And Joseph receives a revelation. And basically it was those that signed leaders and said they would leave that basically they need to leave. But

in this revelation, Joseph is saying to the saints, don't sell your, don't sell your lands. Zion is still Zion. Hold on. You can do this. And I can't tell you how important it is for people to realize that Edward Partridge can't contact Joseph Smith. He can't text him and say, what do I do? Right? If you want to get a no pony express, no telegraphs, yeah. Yeah, it's gonna be two months before he can get any direction at all. So I think he signs to leave to end the violence, right? To say, okay, we'll sign your

we'll sign your contract because we're scared and it's just going to lead to further people getting hurt But this revelation When it was received on August 2nd and that Tarring and Feathering was July 20th Did Joseph Smith have any idea what had happened when you received this revelation? Not that we know of Yeah, where it's all that's going on. And in Joseph's case, when you look 1833, July, people are building the temple.

He's a part of the building, right? And buddy receives this revelation. And Zion's not going to be removed. Zion's a pure and hard and be pure and hard. And go ahead and build your houses. In other words, let's make this happen. Right. There's no way Joseph knows what's happening. Um, the news travels too slow back then.

These travels too slow. And the Lord doesn't want them to sell their lands of inheritance and Zion. In other words, uh, so build it, be pure and hard. Right. The Lord knowing they're going to be driven out, don't sell because then you don't have the cause of that's ours. Right. And we deserve it. And so there's a lot to come where we're going to try to get them get our land back. Right. Because correct me if

I'm wrong, but four and 500 people will get together to drive a certain people out of their county. That doesn't seem legal. Even in 1833, Missouri, it doesn't seem like a legal thing. So Joseph Smith is going to spend a lot of his time after this trying to follow through on the legal legality of this, right? Right, correct. And as you eventually see the saints eventually being forced out by November of 33. They're going to start that whole court action. And then you get for the first time, the Saints are going to hire

Alexander Donovan. Yeah, as their lawyer. What's it like to, to, for those Saints, who have to leave the county by winter? You spend your whole spring and summer preparing for winter and now you got to go. I think, is it, is it, who is it that writes to Joseph saying we, we are destitute here on the other side of the river. W W Phelps and you realize who could be more poetic and say it how it is. Then Phil, the man who writes, praise to the man, the sort of God. Yeah. Yeah.

So I can't imagine. And they've just got to get on the other side of the river. That's it, right? On the other side, is it a creek or is it the Missouri River? Is that found? Is the Missouri River. It's the same man. They've got to get on the other side of the Missouri River.

Right. You've got Antipenets and Jackson County and other side of the river Clay County. And they're moving onto a town called Liberty. Okay. Yeah. And Clay County is, I've heard it described as a kind of like Utah County and Salt Lake County. There's political differences, right? Almost at the county line. Right. Is Clay County safer for them? To some extent, at least at first, first couple of years, but they are literally the cousins of the Kentucky ins that settled in Jackson County. So they, you know, they don't have the history,

the heritage, they don't have the independence, which is a trailhead, you know, as they're heading down the Santa Fe trail, they don't have so many transients and perhaps unwanted in the community as Clay County. Okay. So you've got these Mormons, as they would call them, crossing the river into your county, 1200 of them.

That would be quite a sight. That's probably half the population of independence is now, That would be a, that would be quite a sight. That would be, I mean, that's, that's probably half the, half the population of independence is now crossing the river in the dead of winter. About just right. Setting up 10, I would imagine, I guess, on the other side. Well, I don't know if even had tents, at least throwing some kind of blanket on a tree or quilt. Oh, um, and so this is the August before that happens. Should we jump into the verses then and take a look at what the Lord has to say before Joseph even knows about, about what's happened. Fascinating that the Lord's talking about this and Joseph's probably

thinking in his head, I, has something happened. You can see that the Lord is saying, this is about Zion. This revelation is not about Curland. It's about Zion because he says right in the first verse, I will show you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion, many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth. So it's almost as if the Lord is saying to Joseph, yeah, something's going on there that you're not aware of. I love that he says, I say unto you, my friends, the part that you just read, many of whom are truly humble tells us that many are and many and some are not. Yeah. And but I'm going to show mercy to the meek in verse two. And

then he speaks about parley p pratt in verse, in verse three. That many things were good going on in independence. And you've got to remember a trailhead, pretty exciting place to live. And you'd say they've got, well they've got homes, they've got stores, they've got their printing press and for Parley P. Pratties started a school like the School of the Profits and I think in those verses the Lord is very pleased that Parley would would follow through on that and Eventually you're gonna get our first school For children is actually coming in independence another. There's a real push for education there Hmm, I think it's one of our I can't remember who it was John

But one of our earlier guests called partly Pratt the the Paul of the Latter-day Saints Right when we we talked about people who move and get things done, I would say Parley Pratt's in that category. I think you might have been taller than Paul. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But he's easy. He gets things done. Parley. So things have been going well, you would say, despite the difficulty with your neighbors, yeah. Yeah, cultural social differences. And I mean, can you imagine a people moving into your neighborhood saying the Lord has

given me this land. This is Zion. I mean, even, even though all of us live among Latter-day Saints, we'd probably look at the neighbor's scans, right? Where when you got and they wanted to miter up the corners of your land, in other words, we're gonna have certain parcels, whereas they were squadders' rights. It's independence was the farthest town

in the whole US at that time. And Jackson County, right, and Jackson County, named for Andrew Jackson, are people's president, that time. For the Staten West. For the Staten West. Yeah. Right. And Jackson County named for Andrew Jackson, you know, our people's president, where you could stop saying, ladies and gentlemen, we're all trying to be a rusted critic. I mean, he was a commoner that rose up. And so with that, you've got different thoughts going on as they come into that area. Yeah, so it makes sense they're having this contention, but there's still, you know, it's been two years that they've been there.

And so they've started a school you've said, they've got their printing press, which is pretty incredible to have a real printing press way out in the far west. Now the Lord starts to say in verse seven, the axe is laid at the root of the tree and talking about good fruit. I think what you mentioned earlier, Susan, about the saint, some of them saying, hey, this is our land. The Lord's going to give it to us. I think the Lord advised against that, didn't he? Early on when they were going there, he said, let's not do this with, let's not, I with let's not I I can't remember the exact verb. It's kind of like at the very

same time, Kirtland is always the gathering place, but those that are called and elect to go up to Zion, meaning up to independence, are on the way. So if you're your call to go to Zion and you elect to go, perhaps there's arrogance and the experience once you have arrived. That's interesting because I wonder why would these Latter-day Saints, you would think telling someone that God's going to give you their property is not exactly not in how to win friends and influence people, right? But there's probably maybe some excitement there. And like you said, maybe some arrogance that I've been called to go to Zion. Some went that before they were called, right?

Some just showed up. Right. They just showed up. We're in Puerto Rico. Just shows up. Yeah. And I think you had a departure just going, I can't handle. I can't handle too many at once.

So I can see that, I mean, where do we place, I've always struggled with this, where's the, where do we place the, I wouldn't say the blame for what happens in Jackson County in 1833, but you'd say part of it falls on the saints, but obviously part of it falls on these Missourians for I mean, this violence is unwarranted. Right. In other words, um, Latter-day Saints, those coming to Ohio have a northern heritage and those living in Missouri have a southern heritage, southern culture. And it's like mixing water and oil. You can try it, you know, you shake,

shake, shake, but eventually it still separates. I'm historian saying almost in history, no two people were not fit to live in the same neighborhood than those in the the Missourians of 1831, 32 and 33, and the Latter-day Saints. Just, it just kind of lined up as a perfect storm. Let's continue on in the section here and talk about the Lord saying, and willing to observe their covenants by sacrifice. That's an interesting phrase, observing your covenants by sacrifice. He's still talking about those in Zion, right? Right. But sometimes, you know, you can make your covenants, but then you all always seem to get some kind of Abrahamic test. You know, is this one that will blow you out of the water?

You know, is this one that will blow you out of the water? And the question is, you know, who's on the Lord's side? Who remember who's who sing the song? You know, now is the time to show. And one of the ways to show us by your willingness to sacrifice. Yeah. And to endure the Abrahamic test, right? To endure it. And for some in independence, they succeeded.

They endured. They crossed the rivers for the Missouri for others. Obviously, they won't cross and eventually denied. You know what's interesting to me personally is way back. If you go way back to August of 31, section 58, I think the Lord was checking their expectations. From what I've read, there's an expectation, we're gonna move to Jackson County, we'll probably plan a couple of trees and Jesus will come. Right, that's how great it's going to be. And in section 58, the very first section received

in Jackson County or the second, the Lord says, after much tribulation come the blessings, right? He says, you cannot behold with your natural eyes for the present time, the design of your God concerning the thing, the glory which comes following much tribulation. So you get the feeling in section 58 and Susan, you can correct me if I'm wrong, that the Lord saw this coming, that we're not gonna be here that long. You know, if we were to kind of wrap up, you know, wrap what we've done,

it may all come down to the fact that an independence, I mean, Joseph Sarah, before anybody's called to be there, right, and designates where the temple's to be, and it's the same kind of thing. Let's go, and they have two two years and they don't move it. And you know if you wanted to wrap what we did from 94 on about building and building committees are we are you really going to build this and I've always wondered what would have happened if the saints who were interested in getting their, you know, the mills and the stores

and they put in bridges. And what if they had actually stopped and said, you know, I don't mind living in the log cabin even for next year, but I do care that I haven't built that temple. That's a fascinating perspective. I mean, would we have a different history? I think so. Yeah, there's a lot of conditional things in section 97. A lot of if, then, a lot is in as much. If you'll do this, then this, if you'll do this, then this, and I guess some of them, I don't point fingers because I'd probably be one of them, but some of them they failed to do,

or they failed to do it Speedily or something with the right intent maybe and that's that's verse eight They have to observe their covenants by sacrifice that's that's what you're talking about Susan I can observe my covenants and build my own little kingdom Right the kingdom of Smith my own little acre with milk and honey but Yeah, but this is, this is observe your covenants by sacrifice. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven type of thing is, and that's WWFELPS, right? So I've always told my students, you know, if you get called

back to independence, I don't care where you live, but you just make sure you're building on that. Don't worry about your own house. Yeah, it will all fall together, but when the Lord speaks, you know, the time to access that. Yeah, observe their covenants by sacrifice that. That's one of those verses that makes me a little bit nervous. Because if you'd asked me if I'm observing my covenant, I'd tell you, yes, are you observing your covenant with sacrifice? I remember the Lewis thought. He said something to the effect of, you know, your tithing, your offerings, your, what you give ought to hurt a little bit.

If it doesn't hurt, it's not enough. It's not a sacrifice. Not a sacrifice. So I don't know, I know you both are, but I don't know if I'm observing my covenant by sacrifice, because I probably get to that point where it would hurt a little bit and go, yeah, I get my covenant, right? But like you said, Susan, once it starts to,

and I hate to say this, but once it starts to hit the wall, that's when it starts to hurt. And maybe you could say as teachers every religion, you know, that how many firesides can you give, you know, until you go, wow, I got to be with my family now, you know, or whatever it might be. I mean, I think we all, you know, and what we've chosen to do in life, we have lots of opportunities to sacrifice. And in that sacrifice, bless the lives of others. But then the question comes, what about those in our own home? Is we do that? There's a lot of power in that verse observing your covenant by sacrifice. I just feel an overall tone in all of these is just look how anxious the Lord is to give them temple blessings. He's anxious. It isn't

that the outcome of all of this. Would you guys please build the temple so I can bless you and a dowry with power and I keep telling you this. And boy, what you said earlier, Susan, I was like, yeah, that's true. It's is that the curland is dedicated in 1836. It's still so far down the road. And the Lord is so anxious to get going on these things. So we can bless them. And I suppose now that the temples are opening back up, anxious to, we should all be anxious to get back there so the Lord can bless us.

That's the hard part of reading this is you know that the Lord is saying to them, yes, yeah, they're good people, many of whom are humble and seeking diligently and but not all. They're amazing people. And yet here we are saying, well, they were dragging their feet, they should have built the temple and they're saying, yeah, we didn't have Wi-Fi like you. Did we? Right? Here's some, Elder Holland in General Conference April of 2014. He says, it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much. Comfortable gods, smooth gods who not only don't rock the boat, but don't even row it.

Gods who pat us on the head make us giggle, then tell us to run along and pick marigolds. Talk about man creating God in his own image. This is a God who demands much. The God of Section 97, and the other ones we've read, is one who demands much. The God of section 97 and the other ones we've read is one who demands a lot. But like you said, John, it's, I want to bless you. I want to bless you. I'm anxious to bless you with the temple blessings. Yeah. So sacrifice in sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven. One of you just already quoted that didn't you? Anything else about this, the sacrifices they were supposed to be making down there, Susan, and many of them were. You

would say the Edward Partridges, the felps, the Gilberts, they were. I think they were. I think people are taking family members that are passing through coming to stay into their homes. I mean, accounts of helping neighbors. I mean, they are, they're doing that. It's just, you know, it's the big sacrifices. It's the temple that he wanted them to, he wanted them to get started. And that temple, I mean, after the dedication

of August of 31, I don't think it, does anything happen after that? I don't think it does, right? No, not, not that we know of. In other words, you don't see like you'd say on the Curtlyn temple, Joseph clearing off the foliage, taking down the fence, Hiram, Ramellus Kahun digging trench, you don't, you don't see any of that. And yet just like the Curtlyn temple, you know, the city stake you've got in this case, Bishop Edward Partridge is assigning out these parcels, lands of inheritance with the

temple being the center point. But can you imagine you have this quote, Zion community, but then you had to have nothing in the middle. You're like, wait a minute, where is the beacon? Where is the place where, you know, for revelation, where is the endowment? It's just a space. I mean, it reminds me of the Navu temple before it was rebuilt. You know, people would come to Navu and they look at the little houses and they'd see this depression in the ground and curiosity, but nothing's there. And then, you know, the joy when it's announced. So, you need the temple, you need the palace to the Lord, you need the house of the Lord to get

the blessings that he has for all of us. That's wonderful. Because that seems to be the next, I would say, eight or nine verses, he talks about what they could have if they would get started. Verse 12, he says, this is the tithing and the sacrifice which either Lord require their hands, that there may be a house built unto me for the salvation of Zion, a place of things giving for all saints, a place of instruction, a place where they can be perfected in their understanding of their ministry, in theory, in principle, in doctrine.

I mean, this is a grand verse to talk about what we can get from temple worship. He says, my presence will be there. All the pure and heart. Yeah, verse 16, wow. You know? You go to the temple, yeah, you go on the temple with a and heart. Yeah, verse, verse 16, wow, you know. You go to the temple. Yeah, you go on the temple with a pure heart. All that, he says,

yeah, and my presence shall be there for I will come into it. And all the pure and heart that shall come into it, shall see God. Is that not worth the sacrifice? Yeah, there's that anxiousness to bless the people of Feldewardys, what he's asking. And yet we know the future of Jackson County.

We know we're going to be driven out. We're not going to get our lands back. And eventually we're going to head west to Salt Lake. So what do we say about Zion now? I mean, maybe it's not the time to talk about it, Susan, because we'll get to talk about this later with the saints crossing to the west and leaving everything behind. But, um, does, is Zion, are we looking forward to that day? Do you still think? Well, Zion won't be removed. You know, we still live within stakes of Zion, but Jackson County is still the place.

Still the place. And if you talk to the saints there, they always tell you, you know, this is Zion. They're, they do and they're fast and testimony meetings. They're talking Zion, you know, I don't know if I've ever heard that in my own word out here in Utah, you know, but they definitely. Yeah. We would rather go to verse 21, where Zion is a state of mind in the state of spirit. John mentioned a lot of ifs.

I noticed the if in verse 17, if in verse 18, the if in verse 25, verse 26, if. If in verse 26, if she observed in 27 27, and she sinned no more, right? 27, yeah. Blessings waiting if you will do these things. Oftentimes, I want the blessings before the if. Right? Yeah. Their conditional blessings.

He does seem to step back from the idea of Zion just being a place in verse 21, Susan. He says, therefore, Verily does say at the Lord that, let Zion rejoice for this is Zion the pure in heart. So maybe he's prepping them, I don't know, this would be me in my mind. He's prepping them for the loss of Zion saying, well, yes, we're going to lose the land of Zion for a while, but you can still have Zion. You can take it with you. I was a temple worker in the Probe of Temple for a decade plus, and I was always put in

the locker room. You know, when you're noisy. That's where would you put her? And I was a tough worker at night, so I didn't see a lot of older people coming in. There was a woman who had a wheelchair. Now she's talking to me and she wants to know, where is the locker big enough for it to be able to dress?

I said, hey, I just don't know. Let me get a supervisor anyway. While this somebody is running to get a supervisor, I'm talking to her and and she goes, well, how come you don't know? Are you new here? And I go, no, no, I'm not new. I go, you know, I'm a fixture here. I've been here a long, long time. And I go, I'm just one of the flunkies here. And she looked at my badge and she goes, sister black, nobody's a flunky flunkies here. And she looked at my badge and she goes, sister black, nobody's a flunky that gets in here.

So what I'm trying to say is that, you know, you build those temples and you get to go inside, then, you know, are you pure and hard? Are you Zion? I don't know, I guess we're all trying to be. But, and we can keep that sense of wanting to serve the Lord and sacrifice with us.

And it's, anyway, I love the temple. And so glad, like John said, we're about to be back inside more permanent, isn't that great? Yeah. Yes, sometimes I wish they just had cubicles if you could bring your books and just to be in there as a place to read and to study, it would be nice. It would only be smart. Make it make it more like a library, a library wing in there. Just let me come in here and we could call it the flunky wing, not just kidding.

You could come in here and write a book, right? Like James Tellman. So how do we, Susan, how do we deal with the loss of Zion? Both, how did they deal with it? And because they're, they're going to leave now. And how do we, how do we deal with that as well? How do you deal with that as a historian all these all these expectations all this hope all these dreams are wrapped up in this County and they have to go they have to leave

How do you deal with that all right? Well, I think they left But how do you describe they never left? Took them a while to really establish homes and even businesses in Liberty and Clay County because they were still hoping because the Lord said a little season, and then you'll get Zion's camp, with the big hope they're coming to put us back

on the property and you'll cover that and you'd say, for me personally, you know, I'm grateful to live in a stake, you know, a stake of Zion here in Provo, actually, and what a blessing it is. And I've always thought, you know, you get these stakes of Zion. And when I'm driving into provo, I can look and there's the magnificent provo temple. And I always think, oh, it's my safety net. You know, it's what it holds the stakes in the ground. You know, it's the rockets where I have the security, the security, and where I can be endowed by my heavenly father to receive gifts and talents.

So maybe someday I'll be called again on a committee. And I won't be prepared like those men who were not builders, but the Lord can make us equal to the tasks that come our way. You know, if we are faithful and develop new talents that will bless not just our lives and our families, but we can roam around and what you're doing, bless the whole earth. No, I think that the blessings of verse 28 can still be with us even without Jackson County. If you read verse 28, I will bless her with blessings, a multiply and multiply a multiplicity of blessings upon her and upon her generations forever and ever. That's still found in the temple, even though perhaps this expectation of this temple is going to be put off for a little while. And how I just I would ask you Susan, you've seen your you're having

known you personally, you've seen your fair share of trials and difficulties and the loss of expectations, right? Do you think I was raising my hand the pre-existent saying, choose me, I can handle that. Yeah. You probably look back and say you naive little spirit. You put your hand on me. Right? Yeah. Don't choose that one. Yeah, don't choose that one.

How do you, how do you, I just will ask you a personal question. How have you dealt with the loss of what, maybe you'd hoped would happen? All right. I think, you know, I think for everybody, you know, growing up in California, I was definitely going to be a model forever, right? Yeah. And I didn't want to be a movie star, but a model was going to be good enough supermodel and, you know, grew to five, two. Well, there goes that goal. And then, you know, more serious goals along the way of what you dream about and it doesn't happen. And, oh, there's something about trust the journey. Trust in the Lord, He knows who you are.

And, you know, it may not be perfect, but it might just be good enough for now. And, you know, never lose sight of your child of God. You know, you can, you're a child of God You can you can do this and you can do hard things and You can carry more and if you lose sight of either Well, I kind of have a saying that If if you don't have trials and problems, the Lord's scratch shop is list. He doesn't need you anymore. But if you have enough trials and problems going forward

and you still serve and you still sacrifice and you're still kind and loving, the windows we have in will open up, not in a way perhaps you'd ever imagined, but in many ways more wonderful, because there's the surprise. And anyway, it can be wonderful, but you have to keep holding on to the ride.

You can't, you can't drop, you can't just touch it. You know, the rot of iron, you know, word of God, you know, just keep holding on. Yeah, yeah, cause I, you know, rot of iron, you know, word of God, you know, just keep holding on. Yeah. Yeah, because I, you know, as I think about these poor folks crossing the Missouri River saying, I thought, you know, I thought this would happen. I think of those same, John, we talked about the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. I thought, I thought, I have an expectation, right? And then we had hoped that you would, yeah. I thought, I thought I had an expectation, right? And then we had hoped that she would.

I thought that we were gonna build Zion and Jesus was gonna come and it was gonna be great. And now I'm crossing the Missouri River and I don't have a place to live. And why is the Lord let this happen, right? Okay, is it because he loves you? Yeah. I mean, think how many people you can help

because of what you two have been through. I mean, it's that simple. You know, if you live in a sequestered and don't reach out, man, no chance. Right. And it seems the most, it seems those who run to, those who sucker, those who run to others, are those who have been there themselves.

And they have something to say and they have some credibility. I love to tell the teens and my own kids that maybe the Lord loves you too much to let your life be easy because if you have shallow experiences, you might just end up, well, shallow. But if you have deep, even hard experiences, you are in such a position to help others, like you said, Hank, you'll be able to run to others and do some same boat therapy. I have been there. I have been in that spot before and and the lift others because you've been there and you'll have credibility because of it. I wonder if some of these saints who cross the Missouri into into Clay County are there with the saints who are driven from far west five years later saying, hey, I've done this before,

right? And yes, here we go again. Those who are leaving Navu to be driven across the Mississippi, the other direction are saying, how I've been here before, there's a lot of empathy in these groups because this isn't going to be the first time for many of them when that occurs. It's humbling. I just don't know if I could do it. I know you read about what they've been through. I just don't know if I could do it. Oh, and you read about what they've been through. What a herobie Lee say we're going through the test of gold now and and where we have enough to eat and enough to do and and shelter and look at these people and just I just want to In looking at them and saying how come they did build the temple? I don't ever want to sound like yeah, that's me too saying Gosh you guys get with it.

Can you be like us? Sitting from my air conditioned house where I watched the prophet on my TV, saying man, those those Missouri saints, they should have. They should have done things differently. You know, that that's a hard spot. But here it's the Lord had it walked on snow barefoot yet. Yeah. Now let know, that, that's a hard spot. But here it, it's the Lord's name. I haven't walked on snow barefoot yet. Yeah.

Now, let's make that clear to all of our listeners. It's the Lord saying in section 97, not us three. We are not, we are not saying it. Susan, you've been studying church history almost, well, you don't look it, but it has been decades. Yeah, it's been a long time. How can you say that? Not only have you studied Navu, you've walked its streets, you've looked through, you know, you know, this, this history of these people, you've seen there, like the Lord mentions here,

you've seen when they are humble and they're learning wisdom and you've seen also when they are, you know, many who didn't make it or who made mistakes and stumbled, even the leadership, right, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigden and others like him, both succeeded and failed, you've seen it all. So I think our listeners would love to know how you how you feel about these. They're to me when you talk about them Susan they seem like your friends. I've heard you talk about Martin Harris and it's almost like you're his friend. You say, oh come on Martin. I'd like to

be a friend. Yeah come through. How do you feel about all these these these names that we've gone through in these first 97 sections. Okay, so I actually did a study on those that made it to the end of the row, and those that, you know, in and out, in and out like a revolving door, and those that fight against Joseph. So I found that there are blessings, definitely blessings for faithfulness. And you'd say, well, it is, is it? You'll never get sick. You'll never be run over by a wagon.

OK. I mean, you know, is it? You'll never have heartache in your family. And I'm going, no, no, no, no. But the consistent blessings were, they seem to have a pipeline to have in that spirit of revelation that President Nelson is talking about. We need to get personal revelation. You see that time and time again.

There were three things. The second thing was they have confidence. And you go, well, imagine the three men we talked about, you're going to be on a building committee. I'm going to be what? And they have confidence. And then the third was they have responsibilities added to them. And you go, well, I don't want that. I don't want any more. But they continue to be like added upon what the Lord is.

And you go, it's kind of like, I can carry more. Just heave it on me, I am ready to go. And those three qualities seem to be the qualities I can find in those that were faithful in building the Kirtland Temple, the, you know, the press building in independence that that fled and and it's like they just started over. So you've got spirit of the Lord confidence and just added responsibility comes their way. It seems to me sometimes when I when I've heard you speak that you've walked with them almost. I get in your in your mind in your mind when you read about them, do you walk with them around Navu and across the Mississippi? Well, I don't know if I'd be worthy to do that. Actually, I think they're just,

to me, they're lion eyes. I just think they're magnificent, but I have written on every person that joined the church between 1830 and 1848. So they have been a big part of my waking hours, figuring, learning about their lives and their ability to sacrifice like we're talking about. And I'm just so impressed. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that is a good word for so far in the doctrine of covenants,

John, don't you? Very impressed. Very impressed by these. Yeah. Very impressed. And kind of humbled going, I don't want that to be my test, you know, and there's and there's more to come. I wish we could say, wow, yeah, being driven out of Jackson County was the worst of it all, but there's going to

there's more to come. More trials and I guess we should both love and hate that. I hate the idea that more difficulty is on its way for them and for us, but I also but I also rejoice in the fact that the Lord is still, like you said, those three things, Susan, that we can have confidence or full of the Spirit and the Lord has more responsibility for us. I'm just so blessed to be here today because I am after looking at this, I am so anxious myself to get back to the temple just because I can feel how anxious the Lord is to give them temple blessings. That's the impression I keep getting today and it's gotten me fired up to get get back there. If you would have asked me in February of 2020, how anxious are you to get to the temple? I would have said, yeah, I get there as often as I can, right?

And then here we are at this recording, well, do we 18 months since that? And you're right, was studying this doctrine covenant, you're going, I think I was taking it for granted a little bit. And I don't want that to happen again. We almost, Susan, have been able to put ourselves in the last 18 months in the,

a little bit in the shoes of these saints waiting for the temple to open, right? Waiting for it. Yeah. Waiting. We've had a taste of it and want to get back there and they, the Lord's like, you have no idea what I have for you.

Yeah. Just build it. All right. Well, we want to thank Dr. Susan Black for being with us today. It is always a pleasure and we hope we hope we'll have you back again, Susan, before the year is over. We want to thank all of you for listening. John and I wouldn't have this wonderful podcast if nobody listened to it. So thank you all and thank you for sharing it with your friends and family. We've had a lot of people say, oh my mom told me about your podcast or my brothers texted me and said, you got to listen to this and it, you know, that blesses us,

blesses us and blesses, we hope everyone who listens to it. We want to thank you for your support. We have our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Swanson, who are much like the John Johnson's and Vienna Jocks of 2021, right, who are just so generous. We have a great production crew who, though they're not on the podcast, they are working hard behind the scenes. David Perry, Jamie Nielsen, Lisa Spies, Kyle Nelson, Will Staten and Maria Hilton. We want to say thank you to our team. And we hope you'll join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you