Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Easter -- Part 1 : Elder Bruce C. Hafen & Sister Marie K. Hafen

Episode Date: April 9, 2022

Elder Bruce C. Hafen and Sister Marie Hafen join us for a special Easter Episode about the Atonement of Jesus Christ through a discussion of Adam and Eve, their reception of the Atonement, and the temple ordinances.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers/SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Transcripts/Language Team/French TranscriptsAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello everyone, welcome to Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith, I'm your host and I'm here with my springy co-host, John by the

way. Hello, John by the way. I need an office chair that reflects that as a springy. Yes, because John's spring is in the air and it is the holidays, it is our spring holiday, it is Easter. What a great day. Your kids love it as much as my kids. My kids love the Easter holidays.

It's getting warm. They're excited to be outside and to have some fun. John, I just don't know how to express how excited we are. So I'm just gonna say, John, tell our audience how blessed we are today, how lucky, blessed, and excited we are. We have Elder Brucey Haifin and Sister Marie K Haifin, and Hank, I have a personal story.

I don't know if Elder Haifin will even remember this, but when he was the provost at BYU, I didn't know what provost meant. I thought if BYU were in Orham, maybe that title would be the Oromest. And Burli, Idaho, it means the Burliest. The Burliest. There you go, if it were in Idaho. I was reading something from Elder Haven, and he talked about young adults going through

kind of a Kirtland era of their lives, excitement and building and growth and kind of a Nauvoo period where things just aren't going right. And he talked about the experience of falling in love. I was intensely curious about that because it wasn't happening for me. And I don't remember how I must have called Elder Haifn's office. It's a can I ask you some questions about that? And he met me at the Deseret Tower's cafeteria there and spent a whole lunch with me. The fact that he would take a random student and take a whole hour and talk with me during that lunch, it says a lot more than the bio I'm going to read about who elder Haithin is. So I will never forget that kindness that you showed me that day.

And you fixed all of my problems in the matter of the... So anyway, let me read a more formal biography. Elder Bruce C. Haifin was called to the first core of the 70 in 1996, has been a general authority emeritus since 2010, an internationally recognized family law scholar. And I know that because he spoke at the World Congress on Families in Switzerland in 1999. And the report that I heard was that it was interrupted by eight standing ovation.

He served as president of BYU Idaho. I make all of my students read, the finest talk I have ever heard for young single adults called the Gospel and Romantic Love that was reprinted in the 2002 new era during a Valentine's issue. President of BYU Idaho, Dean of the BYU Law School, provost at BYU, two of his past books, one of the year's best book, Deseret Book, the Broken Heart in 1989. Many of our listeners will over that. A Disciples Life, a biography of Neil A. Maxwell in 2002,

and recently served as president of the St. George Utah Temple. Now, Marie K. Haifen has taught at BYU Idaho, the University of Utah and BYU Provo, Has taught at BYU Idaho, the University of Utah, and BYU Provo, classes in Shakespeare, writing, and the Book of Mormon. She's been a contributing author to several books, including with her husband Covenant Hearts, Why Marriage Matters, How to Make It Last, and the Contrite Spirit, How the Temple Helps us Apply Christ's Atonement. She is served on the Young Women's General Board, on the Deseret News Board of Directors, and as patron of the St. George Utah Temple.

And this part you may need to update us on the Hathens are most grateful to be the parents of seven children and grandparents of 46. Yep. And I think that's the end. We've introduced a new product line. We now have great grandchildren. No kidding. That's wonderful. And I read that bio from one of my favorite new books,

Faith is not blind. And you can see my bookmarks, those are all legit bookmarks, for wonderful things that I've used in my classes. This book has been a real blessing to me in my book more than a new Testament class as some of the insights that are there. Very rarely, John. Do they have the entire religion faculty at BYU read a book,

but they did on that one. Really? Yeah, the entire religion faculty. I think one of the greatest insights in here that's blessed me and hopefully my students, we all know that Moroni's promise of verse four, but verse three is, ponder how merciful God has been since the creation of Adam down until this time and ponder it in your hearts at this fill you with gratitude. And this idea that gratitude is the gateway to revelation was a beautiful thought to me. Appreciate so much the insights in here. Elder and sister, Aifen, welcome. It's a privilege to be here. Oh, you're kind. We feel like we're on the privilege side. What we want to do here today, Eldern Sister Aifen, is really hand the reins over to you both.

What would you like our audience to know, to feel, and to hear? Well, thank you, Hank. We're very grateful to be here. We have the greatest respect for both of you. You have a conversational format for your show. We hope you will interrupt, ask a question, make a comment, as we go along. And so please feel free to do that. When you invited us to come and talk on the Easter show, we thought, hmm, what does the Old Testament have to say about Easter, other than prophecies of Christ coming? And then we remember when we started this course, at the beginning of the year, the first part of it was not the Old Testament as such. It was Joseph Smith's translation of Genesis, which has become the book of Moses, and that is full of doctrine and perspective about Easter. That is prompted us to want to focus on the story of Adam and Eve

coming from the Book of Moses, which is a great treasure for the Church. It's probably the most significant collection of doctrines about the atonement, as we will try to just scratch the surface on today, that we have. It isn't as appreciated and known as much as it should be, so we encourage that, and hope that what we say will nudge people to get into the Book of Moses. Maybe I could just talk about our interests in the Easter and the Book of Moses and the Savior. We've noticed in recent years, a lot of people are talking about the Atonement, much more so than in the past.

We talk about it on and on, and that's how it should be. We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ. But as we have listened to this over the years, first of all, we're really grateful because it's in the hearts and minds of the Latter-day Saints. It's beautiful. And we cheer for that. As we've listened, however, occasionally we detect that we're kind of skimming

across the surface in believing that the Atonement is somehow a word that brings everything else that goes both together. And if you say the Atonement did this, that's really all you need to know. And it's certainly not bad, but there is so much more. We would like to talk about what that more is, and our basis for it, it's the story of Adam and Eve, and that connects us to the temple. So we will have a lot to say about the temple today. You asked earlier about the experiences on Easter. One of my favorite ones is being invited when I was a teenager to go with some other kids about six o'clock in the morning on Easter Sunday. We invited inside the St. George Temple. We took all the back alleys, so to speak, and

we were invited to go up through a couple of dressing rooms, up some stairs and up some other stairs, and I thought we were being taken captive. I didn't know what was happening. But then we opened a little door that took us out on the balcony. We were outside. And I've never seen that view of St. George before. And the sun was just coming up in the east. We sang to the kids that were on the temple grounds way below God's soul of the world that he gave it only begotten Son. But who so believe it's in him, my heavy turn of life. And you can see that affects me even after all these years. It was beautiful, it was memorable.

And we will conclude some things about the St. George Temple today. Those of us from St. George know that it's the one true temple and that all other temples are appendages to the St. George Temple because I grew up in St. George. And so when you start talking about that building, that's my childhood, that's me going for baptisms for the dead. That's me as a teenager going to sit outside the temple grounds and just kind of

ponder and think. And so any stories that you can tell about the St. George Temple, please share. I always say we had Kurtland, we had Navu, those were both warm-ups to the third one. And it got the complete deal. When we were called to go to that temple in 2010, we didn't realize what was in store for us. Some years ago, I was talking with a good friend, I can't remember the general subject, but he was always thoughtful in asking good questions. And he said, the temples contain all these pictures

of Christ. Christ is the center of the gospel. He's the center of the temple. But the temple's endowment is all about Adam and Eve. Well, who are Adam and Eve? Why doesn't the temple endowment focus on the life of Christ? Well, here we are Easter, and we're going to talk about Adam and Eve, but it's because of the connection between Adam and Eve and the Savior. In this sense, the story of the life of Christ is the story of giving the Atonement. The story of the life of Christ is the story of

giving the Atonement. The story of Adam and Eve is the story of receiving the Atonement. Let me say that again. The story of the life of Christ is the story of giving the Atonement. The story of Adam and Eve is the story of receiving the Atonement. That's us. We can look at them in the temple over and over and say, that's me. That's the story of my life. Good because we're in the temple to receive the Atonement. It's pleasant. The insights, the perspective. And so let's talk about that a little bit. I think somewhere we will have a visual that shows a picture of the St. George Temple. That's for Hank's benefit. Oh Beautiful

We will refer to that picture and some that's kind of go with it That's where my wife and I were sealed as you probably add that to the list of great things that happened there She's gonna say here you go. What about that one? Maria and I were sealed there too. Hey, That was probably before you had started this show. Before you had started its life. That may have been a while before me, but not too far, I don't think. One of the perspectives that we took from our being in the temple and thinking about some of the questions we had was realizing that the temple gives us a kind of cosmic,

eternal perspective when young people or older people would come for their own endowment. And each of us had the opportunity to talk along with either the brother or the sister, to introduce them to the temple and ask them their questions before they began their endowment. And I would often ask people if they had read the book of Moses, most had not, and I would encourage them to read it. And it starts with this incredible perspective that Moses was given, where he sees all the creations, and he talks to the Lord, and nobody was talking about specifics, like what are the dimensions of my temple clothing and it was a cosmic perspective. So not long ago one of our grandchildren was going to go on a mission and she asked if we would be available to talk to her for a few minutes just to give her some clues about getting ready for the temple. And she's a wonderful girl. She's full of fun and very bright. We knew that would be a great conversation. As we were talking, we decided to tell her, you know,

in a word what we had seen with that perspective we discovered in the temple. I asked her, let's just start off with, we wanna talk about the cosmos. You probably don't know what the cosmos is unless you think of cosmos, B-O-A BYU, BYU. But then we use this as an adjective.

Do you know what Cosmic means? And she said, Hmm, you know, I work at a little bakery and we have some Cosmic Brownies, does that help? Probably not exactly what you were thinking, though, okay? So we say, well, yeah, there are other brownies, but those are good ones. We told her what we've just said to you about the story of Adam and Eve is the story of receiving the Atonement, but as a story told from a cosmic point of view, which means

it's sort of the eternal perspective. When we look at our difficulties, in our lives, from that huge eternal perspective, they look very differently. It's like looking back on your early childhood, or whatever it was that was hard, or you couldn't understand it. You'll think about it differently

as you get older, as the gospel becomes more clear. We can look at Adam and Eve since that's the story of receiving the atonement, and say, look at that. Oh, they had so many hard problems. And then we watch how the temple helps them deal with those problems, understand what to do about them and with them, and the role of the Savior in helping them with them. Adam and Eve sort of go with us through the endowment. I'd encourage people to think about that. When they go through the temple, how often do you hear about Adam and Eve? It's

all the time, including right to the end of the temple endowment. We are Adam and Eve. Let's go back to the story of Adam and Eve. As we see it in the book of Moses to stress again, it's the story of receiving the atonement. How do we receive the atonement? We watch our first parents and how they received it and do what they did. And that story is what the endowment is about. We talked to several people during our time at the temple about architecture and the original design of that temple. Well, that temple was the, as you said, Hank was the first one to be built after the Saints left Navu. It was before Manti or Logan or Salt Lake, as one of the church architecture consultants said to us when he was there looking at the temple. This is Joseph's temple.

And every dimension, it's extremely close to the design of the Navu temple. And it shows, in the way it's put together, the path that Adam and Eve are going to walk. Somebody coming to the temple back in the early days started in the baptism, of course. Now we have baptism in fonts for most people, but I was baptized in the St. George temple. And when one is baptized for the dead, you start and you mentioned it, hang, you did those baptisms for the dead. That's the first ordinance done in the temple. And it's in the basement.

It's in the basement. Yeah, that's symbolic and important, because every step we take after that baptism is an ascending step. President McKay once said of the temple ordinances, it's a step by step ascent into the eternal presence. We're going to walk back home. How does the walk go?

Well, we go to the initiatory ordinances, and then we go to the endowment, and then we go to the ceiling room. So we'll talk about each of those steps. Let's look now specifically, diving a little deeper. When was the doctrine of baptism first explained by the Lord? He taught it to Adam. It's right there, in the pearl of great prize. As we said, they were the first ones to receive it, and Adam was wonderfully inquisitive when he was told to baptize his family and other people, he said, why? Why do we do this? And the Lord said to him, this is in Moses, it's chapter 6 verses 48, and what

follows. Why is it that men must repent and be baptized? And the Lord answered him. This is in 653 to 55. I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden. The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole, W-H-O-L-E, whole, from the foundation of the world. That is just packed with significant doctrine. We'll come back to that. The easy version of understanding those sentences

is in the second article of faith, from Hank and John, who are still working on the articles of faith. This is the one that starts. We believe. We're all still working on the we believe one. I remember this one, we believe. This one says, men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression. A lot of us memorize that growing up and the deeper dive says, what does that mean? Why is it significant? The other Christian churches, they're doing the best they can with what they have. Their understanding of the nature of mankind, men or women, the nature of men one that people are born is that they are evil because they are stained with the sin of mankind, men or women, the nature of men when people are born is that they are evil

because they are stained with the sin of Adam and Eve. And that's why some churches believe that children have to be baptized immediately. If they die without being baptized, then they may be lost forever because of the stain. The Lord told Adam, there is no stain. You can see how that helps us understand our doctrine relates to other churches. because of the stain. The Lord told Adam, there is no stain. You can see how that helps us understand our doctrine relates to other churches. So how's the restorations view of the atonement? How do we see the purpose of the atonement differently?

The Lord used the word whole. The doctrine of covenants is section 93, it says that all of us are innocent when we're born. Put those words together. Whole, innocent, as unique. And it's very different from evil. And it's different from good, I might say. We need the atonement, but why do we need it

if Adam, Stain has been removed from us as the Lord told Adam? Well, in the book of Moses, he talks about the children, they grow up and they experience a world that's subject to sin, and we all experience it. We do sinful things. Usually we're more young without even knowing it. That's why we're not accountable before we're eight. Then the Lord offers this further explanation, speaking of Adam's children, they taste the bitter explanation speaking of Adam's children, they taste the bitter that they may know to prize the good. The point there is that we learn and grow from experience. The atonement is not just about erasing black marks. It's developmental, and so Adam and Eve as they go through the rooms in the temple, it's developmental. They're learning.

They're growing. When they understand the sin in the garden, it's developmental, they're learning, they're growing. When they understand the sin in the garden and they repent, do they go back to the basement of the temple and start over? No, they keep going because this is part of the overall experience until they go on to celestial life. So I guess I could summarize with this one, because of the Atonement of Christ, we can learn from our experience without being condemned by it. We can learn from our experience without being condemned by it. In fact, mistakes and adversity can promote growth if we engage the Lord in helping us learn from those mistakes. There's a word on this

visual that talks about confirmation. We're going through the steps. You have Adam's baptism, then it is confirmed. He receives the gift of the Holy Ghost. That's right there in the book of Moses. It says, Adam thus was baptized, was born of the Spirit, became quickened in the inner man, and the Lord said, thou art baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost. So Adam became a disciple of Christ. This goes on, this same verse, or the next one, says, that Adam, because of his confirmation, he's a disciple of Christ, quote, after the order of the Son of God, which suggests to me that he also received the priesthood. So Adam is now ready to begin to walk the covenant path.

And we really like what King Benjamin said, it's about discipleship, walking that covenant path. Because he explained to his people when they wanted to make their covenants to become the children of Christ and walk that path. Here's what King Benjamin said to them, they will enter into a relationship with Christ. He's the father of their progression, you know, their new creatures in Christ. So now, what's going to happen in Benjamin's council to his people? He tells them that they are going to experience hard things. I won't try to

go into all that. But when we read it, we learn about what we have come to identify as three categories of blessings for the atonement. The first, of course, is redemption, redemption from death, redemption from sin. But there's more. I love the way we can read an Old Testament verse that's really clear and strong about that. In Isaiah 43, Jehovah says, I have redeemed the Thou art mine. And then because we are His, He says in 41 and 10, I will strengthen the, I will help the strengthening blessings of the atonement come along with and after the redeeming blessings. And then the final category in our growth and in what we see with Adam and Eve as we will explain. The strengthening blessings lead to our being perfected in him if we meet the conditions.

These are conditional blessings. Morone, I tell us most plainly how the perfecting blessings are connected to this process. Come unto Christ and be perfected in Him. That's from the closing verses of the Book of Mormon. It's just so powerful. But he states the conditions of these blessings of the atonement. So if we meet the conditions, we receive those blessings. Come unto Christ, be perfected in him by his grace, you may be perfect in Christ. So on that path, if we're faithful to our part of the Covenant, because of his

atonement, he extends these blessings through our relationship with him. That's a point really worth making. Where does all this come from? Is this new stuff with the Savior? No, it's just part of what happens when we just walk the covenant path. President Nelson understands and teaches this so clearly. He said in one of his conference talks just a few years ago, there is no amorphous entity called the Atonement upon which we may call for sucker, healing, forgiveness, or power. Jesus Christ is the source. His atoning power is best understood and appreciated when we express and clearly connect it to him. That's the end of that quote from President Nelson. It's beautiful. I would just add, the atonement is what qualifies Christ to give his

followers these blessings. The point is that it's because he performed the Atomant that he was given, I would just say, the power to extend these blessings to us. That's his role. And on this foundation, here's another phrase, and you'll notice this one will be an echo of the temple. Mosiah tells his people that if they will stay on this covered path and be stood fast and immovable, always abounding and good works, the Lord God will seal you his. What? We're going to be sealed to Christ? Yes, that's a temple word. Now listen for this echo, this kind of in the mirror. The inverse image is given to us in the book of Mormon.

But we stumble across this a few years ago. Amuleck is teaching the people, and he teaches them that if they choose to love Satan more than God, they will become, they aren't born this way, but they will become carnal, sensual, and devilish. Amuleck said eventually, sensual, and devilish. Amulac said eventually, then, Satan, Doth, seal you, his, striking to us. At the same words would be said,

I just somehow really chilling to me. That is chilling. I've brought that up in my classes before. Who would you rather be sealed to when you look at that? That's almost 34, right? That's yeah. Yes, exactly. The devil does seal you his and like, whoa, that doesn't sound like anybody would want. Well, and it's a description of the life we'll have, John, Satan wants us to be miserable as he is. So that's a life of misery and and what does the savior wants to become a saint through the Atonement?

That's different from a carnal, sensual, and devilish, complete opposite. And then the nature of our life is joy. Can I go back for a second? Ah, the end of Moses 6 here. That is so great. Verse 66, thou art baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost. Verse 67, thou art art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost, Verse 67, Thou art after the order of Him, and that's priesthood language,

the Holy priesthood after the order of the Son of God. But then, verse 68, behold, Thou art one in me, and when I saw that, I thought that word, that my understanding is the King James translators kind of invented of atonement at onement. That art won with me and ties it all up for right there in verse 68.

That art won in me. So here's the atonement of Jesus Christ working. Thank you for that one, John. To me, that's what it means to be sealed to him at one. And if Adam and Eve are receiving the Atonement to its fullest, they are following Christ because he is the following. And where do we go? We're following him.

And to follow him. I think that has some echoes, doesn't it? For you to follow him. I like the sound of that. Yeah, it's interesting. Are we just going to follow him forever. Well, there's a destination to follow him until what, until we are sealed to him.

And with our own ceilings, then we are at one with each other, at one with him. And of course, then new worlds open up. Yeah, and then we are like him. Yeah, Marie likes to say, if we aren't like him, we can't be with him. And the way we're like him is just what we've been talking about. Those of you who aren't watching on YouTube, totally fine, we can make these graphics available on our website, follow him.

Co follow him.co come on over, we'll make sure that all of these graphics are available to you. Those of you who are driving hands on the wheel, look straight forward, come find us and we'll describe what we're seeing for you. If you want to come later to the website, come on over and we'll provide these for you. Well, we've just kind of alluded to this about where the journey goes, where it ends. When we compare that to what we were saying when Adam was baptized, and when we're baptized,

what is this journey all about? They didn't understand, Adam and Eve, they understood so little, really. And then through a lifetime of learning and discovering and obeying and all that goes with it, they reached the point we just were talking about. That makes me think of those memorable lines from T.S. Eliot. We shall not cease from exploration.

And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. I think that's how it must have felt to Adam and Eve. They'd been in the large presence to begin with. They didn't know where they were, just like I didn't know, where we were in this George temple, as we rode our bikes around the temple, but then you get inside of it and you have that eternal perspective,

the cosmic perspective, you rejoice. And the spirit, the feeling. Absolutely. Yeah. That's the kind of witness to you what you're seeing. Okay, keep going with a few more. So we're trying to show all of the steps that Adam and Eve take on their way ascending in the St. George temple and and really all of the temples. I've tried to notice as I've been in various temples. We ascend, we step up, sometimes it's only a few inches. You walk up a little path, but in the pioneer temples, you would walk up a few steps to another room. You go from the world room to the garden room, and then it's to restrious, to restrious,

and celestial. It's sequential and we climb. Elder Haifan, we just did this a few weeks ago with Jeff Chadwick. He talked about Jacob's ladder and the idea of ascending up to God and taking those steps, the Jacob's staircase, we called it. And you only have to take one at a time. Yeah, one at a time, just a step at a time. Hopefully for me. Well, to look specifically, one of the steps, as you mentioned a few minutes ago, Well, to look specifically, one of the steps, as you mentioned a few minutes ago, we read in the Lord's teachings to Adam, he entered into the order of the priesthood. The temple shows that we start with the aronic priesthood.

Of course, that's what we know. We start with the lesser priesthood. The scriptures explain quite fully what that's about. And then we go to the Melchizedic priesthood. Epping up again. You're stepping up. Yeah, the Melchizedic priesthood ordinances are essential to the disciples' journey. For both men and women, I would point that out and underline it, how do women experience the blessings of the Melchizedic priesthood? Well, in the ordinances of the Melchizedic priesthood and the temple ordinances are among the main ones for everybody.

We read in the doctrine of covenant section 88. Through those ordinances in the temple and other Melchizedic priesthood ordinances, the power of godliness is manifest. And without these ordinances, no man can see the face of God and live. Then the other thing we will see on the visuals where as we kind of go up the ladder and look across, we've just divided these categories just to help us see the connections. The next one is principles. Looking here at the relationship between principles and ordinances,

the fourth article of faith says, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel are, first faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Second repentance, John, do you know the third one? And it's principles and ordinances. So faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second repentance, now ordinances, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. Those three are ironic, priesthood.

They're called the first because there are more. There are principles beyond that. And the temple is teaching those to us. What are the principles that could be lined up next to the higher ordinances of the Malkizari priesthood? Let's just take a couple of examples. Sacrifice, consecration. Those are the principles that we think line up next to the ordinances of the

Melchizedic priesthood. So as we go through the temple, we're seeing this interaction between the principles and ordinances of both at the erotic level and then at the Melchizedic level. Elder Haifin, that is just great. This idea of first principles and ordinances, meaning there's going to be some second, some third, there are more principles ordinances, these are beginning ones, but there's more. They're foundational that the rest of them all grow from faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. That clears up so much. I just, I love the articles of faith in that idea of there's so many principles of the

gospel, which ones are the first principles and that he would state it that way? Well, let's talk about the first principles and faith in Christ. What did Elder Ballard say is a power to be reckoned with in this world and in individual lives? What's his book? Our search for happiness. Faith in Christ is a power to be reckoned with, but it's the first principle than everything else follows. I love it. But these other ones, yeah, temple, I'm so glad you said that. Maybe we could say sacrifice and consecration are to the endowment, what the principles of faith and repentance are, to baptism. You just sort of see the principles and then see the ordinances

and they relate to each other. They're linked and they keep ascending. So there's ordinances connected with the next principles that come, just like the first two principles have first two ordinances. There's going to be more principles that come with more ordinances. I keep thinking of was it Joseph Smith that said being born again comes by the Spirit of God through ordinances. I would just say as a kind of summary of who we've come to this point, we've been looking at the journey of Adam and Eve. As represented through these symbolic steps and developments, they as they grow and understanding, they grow in the receipt of more power, they're reflected in the ordinances, and as shown

in the way they live their lives. You know, we go to the temple to receive the ordinances and we leave the temple to live them, same about the covenant of sacrifice. We learn it in the temple, then we leave the temple, and we go try to practice and live by the covenant of sacrifice in our families and beyond. And so that is how we are following the pattern of Adam and Eve, which is part of receiving the atonement. Those are our practice sessions. We learn the principles and then we go work on them as if you're taking piano lessons and it's kind of a lifelong process, but the growth is real.

Well, I just like this idea of leaving the temple doesn't mean you leave what you've learned. This is, don't leave everything you've learned. Sometimes we go to the temple and we leave, we're like, okay, back to real life, right? Back to life. Yeah, back to what I was doing before, where Isaiah would say, no, in the temple,

you beat your sword into a plough share. We're changing, We're becoming something. Oh, I want to restate this. This is too good. The story of Christ is the story of giving the atonement. The story of Adam Eve is the story of receiving the atonement. And then we go to receive these ordinances and principles we leave to live them. That's that is really good stuff. And Hank, this reminds me of a quick story I may have told before Elder John H. Groberg said when he was temple president and Idaho Falls that he would hear people get to the front doors as they were leaving after a beautiful session and would say things like back to the real world. And he said, I knew what they meant,

but it bothered me. It's so one time when somebody was coming out and said, back to the real world, he ran up to him and he said, wrong, only that which is permanent is real. You are leaving the real world and you are going back to a temporary world. That world out there is going to end. So come back soon to the real world.

They're like, okay, thanks, President. Yes, Sister Avin, let's turn it over to you now and let you take it away. What I'd like to do is talk a little bit more about Adam and Eve's experience, but a little more from Eve's point of view, because I've thought about her a lot. And if you think about them in the Garden of Eden, then at least they can talk with God and ask him questions and learn from him. And their relationship is, I would say,

it's not surface, of course, but they haven't had hard things yet to really help them come together in a melded way. Once they, and she, to really help them come together in a melded way. Once they, and she, per took of the fruit, and we don't know how much time it took between the time that Adam said, I don't think I'm gonna do that. And she could see they weren't gonna have any kids

if they were still in the garden. They had two principles. They had two commandments. They had to decide between. And she decided Yes, we've we've got to do this somehow. I've got to make that choice and again We don't know how much she knew exactly when she chose But she had to know enough for it to be a free agency decision, right?

Exactly sister Heyfin. I think second Nephi two makes this clear, right? Exactly. Sister Haifin, I think Second Nephi 2 makes this clear, right? Uh, Lehigh says they could not have. They would have had no children. Right. Wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence. We go past it so fast in Second Nephi 2, but that is theological dynamite. The whole Christian world needs to know. It's not that we could all be living in paradise today if they hadn't messed up. So that in Moses 5 too. So I thought about Eve because they were cast out into a celestial world that had to be any norm as fall. I don't think we understand how much of a fall that was for them. So here she is out there in the world. They were given a few things to cover their bodies. They must have had something that they could make a fire with. They must have

figured that out. But she's looking around thinking, food, we've got to eat, we need to fix the food. This is just entirely foreign. And I think we, as following their their example kind of grow up again at suspending we grow up being sheltered and being nurtured and then eventually we have to go out into the world but hopefully with our armor on so we have talked about Adam's baptism already and Le Lehi, you've mentioned it. Let's go into that just a little bit more, because Lehi taught them in 2nd Nephi chapter 2, it's 22 to 24 that are probably central, but the context for their experience and hours in the T-lash to world, there's that same Adam and Eve look again.

So let's look at second Nephi too. You've already quoted, they would have had no children, wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence. That's kind of neutral, right? We get the start out neutral, and then we make our choices to go one direction or the other. So they would have had no joy for they knew no misery. Oh, I get it. No children, no misery. Yeah. Sometimes you feel like that. We had one especially that we felt like that. You don't have any like that. Do you? Yeah. Oh, of course. You too need to tell the story that you share in one of your books about someone who said, yay, I'm engaged. I'm at the end of my troubles. You got to finish that one. Yeah, but then you have to ask which end.

End of your troubles. So you're getting married. Which end of your troubles now that I'm married? Sister Ethan, I've always said, Joseph Smith is a prophet for that one verse. It had, you know, if you don't have children, you don't know joy. And that is part of, I, some of the greatest joys of my life, if not the greatest joys of my life have, I've found in my children. Had, if they'd known known children, they would have had no misery. And some of the most miserable experiences of my life have been involved to my children. I hate to say that. I hope they're not listing, but it's that verse right there is sums it up, doesn't it?

Well, and we have experienced the rejoife you want to put it that way because we have our first few great grandchildren and two of our granddaughters who are both the oldest in their family. One is in her early 30s, and the other one is almost 28. They each had their first little baby girl and to see the joy for both of them is this makes this verse just live when when do you see the joy that they have in those little children. But it reminds me, too, of the doctor who delivered our first son, who was not exactly easy to deliver. And I was just gingerly walking down the hall, and he was our obstetrician as well of his uncle. And he said to me, well, how does it feel to have the easy part overweath? And I said, you've got to be kidding, that was not easy. And he said,

the next 20 years are going to be the determining harder part. And I think Lehigh had some clue about that because he said having no joy for they knew no misery, but doing no good for they knew no sin. So they didn't have the oppositions. There was no way that they could make choices. Now Marie has kind of the memory of a conversation between the two of us years ago. When that very child, she just talked about... We won't mention his name. What was driving us up the walls, he was really a challenge. Our obstetrician had properly predicted, and I was just so frustrated one day I said to Marie, the Lord put Adam and Eve on the earth as full-grown people. Why couldn't he have done that with this child? And Marie, with that wonderful gift of

a mother's insight, said, I think the Lord gave us that child to make Christians out of us. I don't know where that came from, but we found increasingly that that was correct. So that was part of Adam and Eve's progression. We often say Adam fell that men might be mortal and men are mortal, that they might have joy. So this earth is to prepare us to have joy with both the mortality of it, the joy that we've talked about, but also through the sin we learn without being condemned by it, if we are willing, if we make those choices. So we do taste the bitter so that we can understand and price the good. I like how Moses 648 says, it sounds so much like second Nephi 2, but it takes a

different turn. Maybe you are going here anyway, but in second Nephi, Adam fell that men might be men are, that they might have joy, but then in Moses 648 it says, because that Adam fell we are, and by his fall came death, and we are made partakers of misery and woe. So I like to say sometimes we have second Nephi to 24 days, and sometimes we have Moses 648 days. That we might have joy, this one says, so that we might have misery and woe. And I think it's so have joy, this one says, so that we might have misery and the woe. And I think it's so beautifully significant that second Nephi two was Lehigh talking to Jacob. Jacob, you've never seen Jerusalem, you've seen your family fighting all your life. Let me explain opposition and all things. Let me explain the origin

of the fall and why there had to be opposition. And I think that's really wonderful that Lehigh's talking to Jake, and that's where this amazing doctrine comes out. Yes, and sometimes we'll have both the misery and the joy in the same day. I mean, yeah, yeah. So I'd like to share an illustration of exactly what we've been talking about. And this is from Eve's point of view, again, as she is experiencing what the atonement is coming to mean in her life.

What does it mean to follow Christ? Try to remember what God taught them, and they, yes, they can pray to Him. And what do they do when they first are able? They build an altar so that they can pray. But here's an illustration that shows Eve through a poem by Arta Romney Balov, who was President Mary and G. Romney's sister, both an artist and a poet, and she was trying to imagine what it was like for Eve through the experience of Cain and Abel and her honest questions, her honest experience,

trying to work things through. So as I read this poem, we see her wondering about her relationship to God, although she's always sure that he's there, but she's willing to ask honest hard questions. And it's interesting that Sister Bell have caused this poem lamentation. So notice there are some symbols in this poem and layers of meaning. Symbols such as the fruit, the fruit of her body, the fruit of the earth,

the seed, you know, the seed that will become their generations generations a storm and Multiply sorrow lots of layers of meaning so let me share it and God said be fruitful and Multiply God said I will greatly multiply thy sorrow thy sorrow sorrow

sorrow I I will greatly multiply thy sorrow, thy sorrow, sorrow. I have gotten a man from the Lord. I have traded the fruit of the garden for the fruit of my body, for a laughing bundle of humanity. And now another one who looks like Adam, we shall call this one, Abel. It is a lovely name, Abel. Cain, Abel, the world is yours. God set the sun in the heavens to light your days, to warm the flocks, to colonel the grain. He illuminated your nights with stars.

He made the trees and the fruit thereof yielding seed. He made every living thing, the wheat, the sheep, the cattle, for your enjoyment. And behold, it is very good. Adam, Adam, where are thou? Where are the boys? The sky darkens with clouds. Adam? Adam is that you? Where is Abel?

He's long caring for his flocks. The sky is black and the rain hammers. Are the youths laming in this storm? Why your troubled face, Adam? Are you ill? Why so pale? So agitated. The wind will pass.

The lambs will birth with Abel's help. Dad? What is Dad? Merciful God, hurry, bring warm water. I'll bathe his wounds. Bring clean clothes. Bring herbs. I'll heal him. I am trying to understand

you said Abel is dead, but I'm skilled with herbs. Remember when he was seven, the fever? Remember how herbs will not heal? Dead? But cane. Where is cane? Listen to that thunder. Dad, but Cain, where is Cain? Listen to that thunder. Cain cursed? What has happened to him? God said, a fugitive and a vagabond. But how can he do that? They are my sons too.

I gave them birth in the valley of pain. Adam, try to understand in the valley of pain I bore them. Fugitive? Vagabon? But this is his home. This is the soil he loved, where he toiled for golden wheat for tassled corn. To the hill country, but there are rocks in the hill country, came, can't work in the hill country. The nights are cold, cold and lonely, and the wind gales. Quick, we must find him, a basket of bread in his coat. I worry thinking of him wandering with no place to lay hitset.

Cain, cursed, a wanderer, a fugitive, two sons, Adam. We had two sons, both O Adam, multiply, sorrow, dear God, why? Tell me again about the fruit. Why? Please tell me again. Why? Ah, thank you, Sister Belph, and thank you, Eve. She was willing to ask those honest questions.

I think she kind of knew if I can't ask the questions of God, how can I find the answers? So I think we have this experience of Eve, both wanting to know the answers, but also being willing to go out after she has the questions and live through the answers, but also being willing to go out after she has the questions and live through the answers, even though they are really difficult. So I'm looking forward to meeting her someday, to finding out from her perspective face to face, how did she feel about living through those answers, living through those questions? Although we do have a couple of clues, but I think what she says also in this poem especially is that we can have these really hard and even these searing experiences and that we can find the answers through living our lives if you want to say outside the temple in the way that a temple teaches. Please join us for part two of this podcast.

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