Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Ezra 1; 3-7 & Nehemiah 2; 4-6; 8 -- Part 2 : Dr. Jared W. Ludlow

Episode Date: July 16, 2022

Dr. Ludlow returns to discuss the Apocrypha, Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah and the importance of remaining steadfast while completing the Lord’s work.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing & SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. At the end of chapter three, we get a little bit more of the reaction of the people at this rebuilding of the temple. Because you can imagine, you know, if you've been away from the temple for a while and now have the temple rebuilt, it's going to be a huge deal, just like our reopening of the temples slowly, but surely after the pandemic a huge deal. Just like our reopening of the temples slowly, but surely after the pandemic, I think we feel a little more gratitude for this opportunity to go to the temple and feel that spirit and be strengthened and the peace and the beauty of the

temple. And so at the end of chapter three, we get some of their reaction. Let's pick up in verse 11. We have all these priests there, Levites and others, and they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the Lord. Why? Because he is good for his mercy and doereth forever toward Israel. This is probably a little excerpt from a Psalm there, and that mercy in English is this word, he said that I think you've talked about before on a previous podcast. It's this everlasting kindness, this covenantal love that God shows his people. John, I think earlier today, you mentioned that even though the Israelites were off in exile,

God hadn't forgotten them. He still would remember them and help bring them back. And that's what I think that phrase gets at because he is good and is mercy endure for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the Lord because the foundation of the house of the Lord was laid. But many of the priests and Levites and chiefs of the fathers who were ancient men, old guys, like some of us, that had seen the first house when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes wept with a loud voice. And so some are sad at this, it's not going to be the same. But then the next phrase, and many shouted aloud for joy.

So this mixed feeling there, so that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people, for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard of far off. So there's so much jubilation and so forth that it's hard to tell who's weeping for joy, who's weeping for sadness. This isn't quite the same. And so it's kind of an interesting portrayal, I guess, of how this scene might have been for these people. That's fascinating. We have some, yay, the temple of the others. It's never going to be the same. Maybe we go through that a little bit when we get a change of a profit or a bishop or relief society president that gets changed. It's never been to be the same. Yeah, we're like,

wait, we're kind of happy, but no, we're sad. That's fascinating. The mixed feelings of Ezra chapter three, I like that. I've never seen that before.. Yay, and this boo, and yay, and that's life. I can imagine those who are really happy looking at those who are sad saying, come on, it's something. Be happy that it's something. Another saying, yes, it is something, but it's not what we once had. That reminds me of Jefferer Hollins talk, the tongue of angels, where he says, speak hopefully, speak encouragingly. Our word should be full of faith, hope, and charity. I'm kind of siding with those who are excited about the rebuilding. Strengthen your brother in and all your conversations and all your doings.

Focus on the positive here. There is going to be another temple. Maybe it's not going to be like Solomon's temple, but it's still a temple. I love how Elder Bednar kind of took a part of mission call. You are called to serve and you are assigned to labor. And because of COVID, I mean, many were called to serve and didn't labor in the place where they are originally called. My daughter Natalie was called to serve where they were originally called. My daughter Natalie was called to serve a mission, what she's doing was called to labor in Tahiti. I'd spent the first almost half of her mission in Tucson. And she ended up when the possibility came that she might actually get to go to Tahiti. She was

like, but I have really loved Tucson. And I've loved these people in Tucson. It was so nice to hear that. And I hope that all those listening that have had a mission modified by circumstances can rejoice in the call to serve and the assignment to labor might change. But rejoice in the call to serve. Oh, I love that, John. I think this idea of I'm so happy. I'm kind of sad, but I'm so happy.

Jared, do you feel like we're misapplying the scripture here with kind of saying, look, it be grateful for what you have instead of focusing on what you don't have? Yeah, I think that's probably what we should take from this experiences that even though Haggai and Zachary don't chastise them for their attitude, their words before was, no, we need the house of the Lord. And I don't think they were worried about whether it was as grand as King Solomon's temple or not. They just wanted the house of the Lord completed. That's probably one of the messages we take from it is just

be grateful that we have it now again, so that this worship can continue and progress. And I can understand this, I think, Jared and John. There are times, and both of you, I'm sure, understand this, where my father passed away just a year and a half ago. My brother just 90 days before him. And there are times where I'm so happy with the situation we have, we get together for a holiday, our family.

But there is that sense of, oh, what could have been had that not occurred. So I think you can have these feelings of joy and weeping at the same time because you're joyful for what is occurring and the blessings that you do have right now in front of you and the people that are around you, but there's a sense of sadness for what was lost. Does that make sense? You know, Hank Hartfriend, Meg Johnson's father passed away and I sent her a text and said,

it's a very interesting mixture, isn't it, of sadness and celebration because a life well lived, but now they're gone from us anyway. Maybe a lot of life is that way. There's a mixture there. What makes experience great is often the people that we're sharing them with. So there's often a tinge of sadness when people we love aren't with us anymore, whether that's because of passing on or having left the church or something, we miss that, but we also need to live in the moment and be with the people that we are with.

The phrase today, be present, let's be content with what we have now. Yes, we miss how it was, but we need to move forward and make this a great temple. I have a good friend who lost her husband in a sudden unexpected way, and I think she's doing this. She is trying to live in the moment, give thanks, shout for joy when she gets all of her children and grandchildren together.

But there is that sense of, I miss my husband whenever we get together. So I can see them looking at this smaller version of the temple going, I love it. I also miss the big one. I miss the one we had. But I like what you said, Dr. Ludlow, about you use the phrase living in the moment. There's something in looking at what we have right now and being so grateful for that. Look at this in verse 11, they give thanks. They shout for joy in verse 12. They shout for joy in verse 13. They're focused on the positive, on the blessing.

Joy and weeping is that so interesting in the same verses. It reminds me of, at the end of the war chapters, a somewhere softened because the great length of the war and some were hardened. There can be a mix of emotions there. And some were half softened and half hardened. Some were just mildly hardened. It does show that people can go through the same experience and have different reactions

based on how they enter into that. And where their focus is. In chapter 6, starting like in verse 16 and all it, it talks about this dedication of the house of God with joy. So there's that joy again. And all these offerings that they brought. And they have organized the priesthood in verse 18 and all their courses, divisions, what we call temple shifts today. So everybody's ready. And they keep the Passover in verse 19. This was their Exodus experience. They've now come back from exile. God has delivered them back to the land, to the promised land.

And now they're back at the temple. And so they're celebrating this Passover with this jubilation, verse 20, the priests and Levites were purified, everybody's purified, they kill the Passover, meaning the Passover lamb for all the children of the captivity and for their brethren, the priests and for themselves. And for the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity and all such as had separated themselves under them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land for what purpose to seek the Lord God of Israel. And they did eat of this Passover lamb and they kept the feast of unleavened bread. So that follows the Passover, technically Passover

is a one day holiday, and then the feast of unleavened bread is a week. So they kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy. There's joy again. For the Lord had made them joyful, and he had turned the heart of the King of Assyria unto them to strengthen their hands

in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel. And probably that King of Assyria is probably more meaning King of Persia that has taken over from these earlier empires. And we think of the saints with the Curtlyn Temple and the great rejoicing and spiritual manifestations that occurred there in the doctrine of covenant section 109. It's also interesting that that happened around Passover time in 1836. And some of the experiences that they had with that rebuilding of the temple. Wow, that's great.

In their case, the building of the temple. You just helped me. I was a little foggy about what's the difference between Passover and the feast of unleavened bread? And you just helped me. So the Passover was, you said, like verse 19, a day, the feast of unleavened bread is a seven-day week, but it's kind of centered on the same event of the children of Israel. They're both related to the Exodus, and we've kind of combined them today when we use the word

Passover, we kind of say this whole week-long thing. But technically, if you look back at Exodus 12, the Passover is just that first night, the 14th day of the month, and then they start this feast of unleavened bread. Jared, John, I found this quote from Elder David A. Bednar, does this not sound like the Jews of old returning to the temple? Listen to this. He says, quote, returning to the temple is something we have prayed for and look forward to with great anticipation. We rejoice in the opportunity to again serve and worship in holy temples. Even if our experience will be different because of constraining circumstances and additional

sacrifices we are asked to make. He then quotes President Thomas S. Monson, who says, Those who understand the eternal blessings which come from the temple know that no sacrifice is too great, no price to have no, too difficult in order to receive those blessings. There are never too many miles to travel, too many obstacles to overcome, or too much discomfort to endure. This feels like it could be said in 2022,

or it could have been said in 515 BC, this anticipation of returning to the temple. How interesting that it has such a direct parallel to our day. Yeah. Let's get to the temple and find that joy for ourselves so we can feel that. I have a lot of joy in maybe a season two or a season three of a season of Netflix, but I don't think that's the same thing

the Lord wants for me, right? When he offers a chance to come to the temple. So I can see why they'd be so happy. How long have they been away? 70? It's been over 70 years since the temple has been up and running. Well, since it gets destroyed, it's a little bit less. But again, they start with the alter worship and then eventually expand to other things. So many decades, much longer than any later date saint absence from the temple in our day. It's almost like a mini restoration. Especially, I mean, when I'm reading Neha Mayan,

he's going back and going, oh, we're supposed to do this. Oh, we're supposed to do this and kind of rediscovering what they can do because now they have the temple there that they couldn't do in Babylon. I think that idea of mini-restration really does cover a lot of what goes on in these books because they're not just trying to rebuild a temple, they're trying to reconstitute a community, a religious community, they're trying to reconstitute the priesthood. They have to check the lineages. Today, we don't have priesthood by lineage, but we do by line of authority.

And so we try to keep track of these kinds of things. But for them, it was, of course, of certain priestly families and levitical families. And that's where I think Ezra particularly comes in because he's concerned about a lot of Moses and maybe picking up in chapter 7 is when Ezra finally shows up in the story, verse 6. This Ezra went up from Babylon and he was a ready scribe in the Law of Moses. Now the ready scribe in the King James version means one who is expert. So he is expert in the law of Moses.

So he's a scribe. Now it's interesting in the New Testament we kind of have this negative view of scribes because they're often antagonizing Jesus and His followers as far as interpretation of the law. And that's basically what scribes were. They were educated, they were literate, they could study the law, and they could interpret the law based on their study. And if you have a good scribe, then obviously you have good results, you have good teachings. And Ezra seems to be this expert in the law of Moses, a good scribe. And he's treated, I think, in this book, like Amosus. He's bringing the law to the people. It's emphasizing his priestly lineage. Now, we mentioned that Haggai and Zachariah are mentioned in these books, but they have their own books that we'll cover later in the year. But this

is a story about a scribe, Ezra, and a governor, Nehemiah. And so those are the two main characters here, not prophets, per se, but Ezra is going to help the people follow the law. And if we look later on in Nehemiah chapter 8, this is where we kind of get Ezra and Nehemiah put together. They show up together in this. Ezra is going to read the law to all the people that are gathered there. And so verse 1 of chapter 8 in Nehemiah, it says, and all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before

the Watergate. And they spank unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the Law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation, both of men and women, so it's both genders are there to learn, and all that could hear with understanding upon the first day of the seventh month. And then he reads to them from morning until midday, etc. And he stood in verse 4 on a pulpit of wood, which they had made for this purpose.

What does that make you think of from the book of Mormon? King Benjamin standing up on a platform so that he can teach the people the law. And he, in verse 5, he opens the book in the sight of all the people, for he was above all the people on this platform. And when he opened it, all the people stood up. And he blesses the Lord. And the people on this platform. And when he opened it, all the people stood up. And he blesses the Lord, and the people answer amen, amen. They lift up their hands, they bowed their heads, they worship the Lord with their faces to the ground. And on goes this teaching of the law to them

so that they could remember the Lord on his holy day, that they could remember the different festivals. holy day, that they could remember the different festivals. This is around the time of what we call the Feast of Tabernacles or Sukkot, and he's trying to make sure that, if we've come back to this land, and if we've come back to the covenant, let's make sure we keep the covenant. What's also interesting is they had elders

and some Levites that helped transmit and interpret the law to the general public. Maybe because of language differences, some now spoke Arabic more than Hebrew, Arabic was the Persian language of the day. But what it certainly emphasizes is this centrality of scripture in the community. There are people that can help to not only read the scriptures but understand them as well. And so Ezra I think plays this important role in helping the people understand the scriptures to kind of come back to the scriptures, come back to like I said, the different aspects of the law with the Sabbath, with keeping the festivals and so forth.

I'm looking at Nehemiah 8.8. So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, which footnote 8B says Jacob 4.13, which I remember is things as they really are and things as they really will be the spirit, speaks of things that really are. So they distinctly and gave the sense. So footnote 8c for gave the sense says, gave a commentary by the power of the Holy Ghost. That's what you were just saying, Jared, was that they're reading the scriptures and getting inspired commentary from them, from our leaders.

That's a great verse with those footnotes to make City him better. Personally, I really like Nihemiah, chapter 8 verse 7 because it lists some people who perhaps aren't prophets or apostles, but these are people who are teachers, and they're trying to help the people understand scripture. Anthony Sweatt in his book Seekers wanted, he says this, I assume that if you're reading this book, you are academically minded, but to those who may be skeptical about turning to

academic scholars for religious learning, I share the following from President Amrussle Ballard. Quote, so now Tony is quoting President Ballard. Quote, consult the works of recognized, thoughtful, and faithful LDS scholars. We have one of those right here. Jared Ludlow is a recognized, thoughtful, and faithful LDS scholar. President Ballard continues,

we should ask those with appropriate academic training, experience, and expertise for help. This is exactly what I do, President Ballard says, when I need an answer to my own questions that I cannot answer myself. I seek help from my brethren in the core of the 12 and from others with expertise in fields of church history and doctrine. I don't know. Someone like me, John, someone like Jared, those of us who do this, we like this part. Nehemiah 8 where these others are coming to help. Yeah, and I think it's a tool. It's a resource, right? President Ballard said, when he has studied something and still has some questions about it.

In other words, that's not the only source that he goes to, but it's a resource when he needs specific things. And I think that's where it can come in. I think we can swing the panel too far and say, well, I'm only going to listen to what the academic say and not study the scripture myself or hear what the academic say, and not study the scripture myself, or hear what the brethren say, because they're not experts in this. I don't think present-ballard gained his testimony

of Jesus Christ through just going to somebody else's commentary and reading it. For certain things, he gained his testimony through his own spiritual experiences and his own pondering and studying it out. But then for other things, he sought out these resources. And I think that's probably a good model for us that we shouldn't be scared of looking for other resources, especially when we have questions. I've been studying scriptures for many years, but I still don't know everything about all

the scriptures, and especially history and context and these kinds of things. And that's where these resources are very valuable. But of course, the scriptures are the primary thing first and foremost. Would you say that Joshua, Bonnie, Sheraby, they see themselves as someone who can help you understand the law, butia, they see themselves as someone who can help you understand the law, but they don't see themselves as the end all. Yeah. The law comes from God through Moses and now through Ezra, but they are just trying to help

the people get a sense. I love that. They gave the sense of what's in there and taught it distinctly. That's something we try to do here on our podcast, right John? We try to help anyone listening to get the sense of what they're reading to understand what they're reading. Yeah, a companion to your study of come follow me. That's what we're trying to do. Yeah. We've been talking about Persia, which plays into the book of Esther a little bit. Could you talk about that? Sure. Yeah, the book of Esther's solidly set within the Persian Empire. And again, the chronology of the kings is a little fuzzy, I guess you could say, because we haveus Suerahs mentioned in Esther and also in these books,

is it the same one or is it one named after him later on? But as you remember in the story of Esther, there's been an attack basically against the Jews by Heyman, one of the ministers of the land. We've unfortunately see throughout history even into our day of persecutions, pogroms against Jews. They've just often been treated as these others, these outsiders, and as the scapegoats for problems in a society. The worst example of that, of course, would be the Holocaust last century. So this is an example of that anciently where they want to eliminate the Jews from the land. We might not have had Ezra and Nehemiah if they had been successful in that plan, but Esther comes on the scene and was born for a moment like that and was able to reverse the plan and

save the people. And so we see her very close to the king. We see Niamaya later on, a cup bearer, very close to the king. Jews often were trusted and close to the leadership, but also people within the government were suspect of them. We saw this the same thing with the Babylonians with Daniel, these contests between Daniel who's rising in power as an outsider and others from Babylon saying, wait, we don't want him trying to eliminate him. And so I think those dynamics are going on. I think that that's perfect when it comes to introducing us to Esther. Jared, we've talked about this, I think, before about the apocrypha. You have written a book about the apocrypha. I know the doctrine and covenants. There was an inquiry made about it and the Lord,

what did he say? There's some things in there you have to read it by the Spirit and even Esther ties into that. Can you talk about that a little bit? Sure. The doctrine, covenant section is as Joseph Smith is coming to the end of the Joseph Smith translation project in his Bible. He has a section on the apocrypha, which are basically, I mean, this is over simplification, but these are books found in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, we call this Septuagint, that aren't found in the Hebrew Bible. And a lot of these end up getting transmitted down through the centuries, particularly among Christians.

And so Joseph Smith's Bible had this section on the Apocrypha and he asked the Lord, should I translate this as part of the Joseph Smith translation? And the Lord says, no, it's not needed, but he, like you said, John does say there are good things in it. And if you read it by the Spirit, you will find benefit from it. But then he goes on and says, but there are also not fabrications, but something of men. And so interpolations of men and these kinds of things. The problem is, is he doesn't say which is which.

So we're left kind of open. We need to look at this book and decide which are things that can benefit us and which aren't. I wrote this book because there's sections about Daniel. There's another version of Esther, there's even another version of Ezra in the Amaya, it's called second Ezra is usually. And so there's additional stories related

to the Old Testament that show up in these later accounts. And particularly in the case of Esther, it's interesting because the later translators in degree include a lot more about Esther's religiosity because we don't really get in our King James version which is based on the Hebrew Bible version. We don't really get Esther's reactions about here she is a Jewish woman in a foreign King's Heram and so she's among Gent. And we don't really get what is her feeling towards this. Whereas the Greek version brings that out a lot more that she struggles with

it. It's not easy. She doesn't want to put on the crown just to parade in front of people. And she does a lot more fasting and prayer in the Greek version than we see in the Hebrew version. and prayer in the Greek version, then we see in the Hebrew version. It's interesting to see how even ancient Jews seemed to have been somewhat a little uncomfortable with some of the aspects of the story of Esther. It's kind of addressed in this translation version of it. Beautiful. What's the book called, Jared? The book is called Exploring the Apocrypha from a Latter-day St. Perspective. So I try to just give a basic intro to each of the books in the common list of books in the apocrypha. Some denominations will add another book or two to it. And then I try to, at the end of each chapter, say, well, how could this maybe relate to Latter-day Saint teachings and doctrine? And so it's just kind of an introduction to the apocrypha with the hope that then if people are

interested, they can then go read these stories themselves and hopefully find benefit there from. Well wonderful. Follow him listeners are really good at getting books. It has the follow him stamp of approval, right, John? I remember speaking of the apocrypha when I had my economy Bible for my mission that didn't have thumb indexes, but you could buy sticker tabs and put on the outsides of the pages. So I'm putting all these stickers and I'm just a teenager and I'm going, what's asdress? What'separd of Hermes, what's, and that's who was my first introduction today.

What are these? Hey, Dad, what are these? And that's when he first told me, oh, well, there's these bunch of books called The Apocrypha. And I had tabs for him, but I didn't have them in my King James Bible. So. There was a landmark talk,

just a wonderful talk given by then president Uktor back in 2009. I remember sitting in priesthood session and listening to this talk and just having it kind of seared into my heart. It's called, quote, we are doing a great work and cannot come down, taking from Nehemiah 6.3. Jared, could you kind of set this up for us? What great work is Nehemiah doing? Yeah, so this is Nehemiah with the rebuilding of the walls around Jerusalem, trying to strengthen the city and bring it back to its former glory, I guess you could say. And again, there's this local opposition. And verse one sets up even names, three of the main leaders that are opposing this, including an Arabian. If you will, so again,

it's not just Israelites, but others local, I would say, you know, small regional political powers that are trying to assert authority over Jerusalem. And so they try to get him to me with them. Come down into the valley. Let's just have a nice little chat here. And we don't exactly know what their intentions were, but I think Nehemiah sense that it was not good. It just says at the end of verse two, but they thought to do me mischief. So Nehemiah seeses, this is not going to be good. They thought to do me mischief. So he sends messengers instead and that's where we get this phrase, I am doing a great work so that I cannot come down. Why should the work cease whilst I leave it and come down to you. And they tried four times to do this and he keeps answering the same way. I love that Nehemiah said I'm doing a great work. That phrase should remind us of another verse that was actually the theme for the young men and young women last year, Dr. and Covenants section 64, verse 33 says, be not weary and well-doing

for a year, laying the foundation of a great work. It's the same work in the restoration. And so yeah, the same work of laying a foundation for that, I see that with Neomyah here talking about this great work he was doing to rebuild, in this case, the walls around the temple, but that same sort of a thing. This is part of the great work he was doing to rebuild in this case the walls around the temple, but that same sort of a thing. This is part of the great work. Beautiful. That's awesome, John. I'm glad you included that. Yeah, I've always liked this situation and

Nehemiah's answer and then to hear President Uktorff create such a wonderful message out of that. John, I'm gonna let you talk about it because I know it talks about a jumbo jet and it talks about the war chapters in the Book of Mormon. This is a, John, by the way, favorite, I bet. Yeah, I always love to hear President, I've talked about airplanes because I love airplanes. And he talked to the beginning

about a little warning light and a really bad accident with an L1011. But the part I love this idea of I'm doing a great work and I cannot come down. It reminds me of the Aaronic priesthood theme, the very first line. I'm a beloved son of God and he has a work for me to do, which is so great. I'm here for a reason. So in the talk, President Oukdor said, think of the power we would have as individuals and as a body of the priesthood, if this was a talk at General Priesthood Conference, if in response to every temptation to lose focus

for lower our standards, the standards of God, we responded, I'm doing a great work and cannot come down. We live in a time of great challenges and great opportunities. The Lord is seeking men like Nehemiah, faithful brethren who fulfill the oath and covenant of the priesthood. He seeks to enlist unfaltering souls who diligently go about the work of building the kingdom of God, those who, when faced with opposition and temptation, say in their hearts, I am doing

a great work and cannot come down. When faced with trial and suffering, they respond, I am doing a great work and cannot come down. When faced with trial and suffering, they respond, I am doing a great work and cannot come down. When faced with ridicule and reproach, they proclaim, I am doing a great work and cannot come down. Our Heavenly Father seeks those who refuse to allow the trivial to hinder them in their pursuit of the eternal. He seeks those who will not allow the attraction of ease or the traps of the adversary to distract them from the work He has given them to perform. He seeks those whose actions conform to their words those who say with conviction I am doing a great work and cannot come down

So President Ootdorf love that little story and you know what it reminds me of Hank and Jared There's a speaker I heard years ago on a cassette tape, teacher named Jim Rohn, ROHN. And he said in the scriptures, we find examples and warnings. An example says, do what this person did. A warning says, don't do it this person did. And he said, he said, the lesson is,

if your name ever ends up in someone else's book, make sure it's an example of not a warning. But this is an example, Nehemiah, is an example who's a warning Hank in the Book of Mormon. Yeah, when I saw this, I knew you would bring this up because you wrote a book on the war chapters. Where is it? We're in Alma 46 and 47. There's this Amalakaya, the time of Captain

Marona, who wants to be a king and they're under the reign of the judges. And they chase him out. Captain Marona gets some of them, but not all of them out. Amalakaya goes over to the king of the Lamanites and persuades him to give him his whole army to go and march against the Nephites and force him to become a king. On the way, half the army, like actually the more part of the army kind of defects, and they go up to the top of the mountain antipus and appoint a man named Laontai to be their leader. And Laontai says we are fixed in our mind with a determined resolution. We will not be subjected to go against the Nephites, which sounds like an example. This is awesome. Laontai is strong. And a Malachiah down below sees,

I gotta have the rest of the army, or I'll never overcome the Nephites. So he sends delegations up to Laontai. Three times, come down from your mountain. Come down to the plane of Oh no, and Nehemiah's words, which I think is funny. Oh no. I mean, what does that tell you? Oh no. He sends three times to come down and LaHontai will not come down.

And Malachi finally says in the book of Mormon, seeing that he could not get LaHontai to come down off from the mount, he went up into the mount nearly to LaHontai's camp and sent again the fourth time, an embassy to LaHontai, designed that he would come down and he would bring his guards with him.

So you've got this come down, no, come down. No, come down. No. So he goes up and says, basically, I'm using some application here. Come down just a little. And you can just hear, oh, come down just a little. Bring your guards. You'll be fine. And Laontay comes down just a little. Malachi is cunning and flattering and says, Hey, you're such a good leader. I want to be second in command to you. Bring your army down

in the night time. Surround my army. We will surrender. I will surrender my army to you, and Malachi says, if I can just be your second in command because you're such a great leader. And oh, LaHontai goes from example to warning. He falls for it. And then the great phrase, not great because it's good, but great because it's frightening and teaches us something. The servant of a Malachiad, the minister poisoned by degrees to LaHontai that he died. So he got poisoned by degrees. And so here's a warning. He did. He came down, even he just came down a little bit, but it meant eventually the end of his life. Nehemiah never came down.

You know who else it reminds me of Hank is Jesus on the pinnacle of the temple and Satan inviting him three different ways to come down and Jesus never came down. So those stories all kind of applications fit together, but let's be an example, not a warning. Ne But let's be an example, not a warning. Nehemiah is an example, not a warning. That's what President Uttarf is trying to persuade us to do. I can see a seminary teacher or a Sunday school teacher or a parent saying, let's as a family

compare Nehemiah in Nehemiah 6.3 to Lahontai in Alma 47. Let's compare. Where did he fall? It's where he came down just a little bit. Do you not so interesting to me about that story, Hank, is that Mormon as an abridger, he could have said the servant of Malachiah killed Lahontai and it would have been factually accurate. But he gave us that wonderful little phrase. I mean, poison bite degrees. If I come at you with a javelin or a spear, you know my intention, but what if I come at you with a refreshing beverage?

Yeah. And that's why I love the story because it's so subtle that I imagine that's how they poisoned him with some sort of something to drink and he didn't even know it was happening. Scary stories. So don't come down for your mountain. Don't get poisoned by degrees.

I think that's a great parallel, or I guess actually polar opposite. Yeah, we want to avoid sticking to what we know is right and holding firm to that foundation, even with the temptations or the efforts by others to call us away knowing that no, I'm in a solid place. I don't want to get on to a shaky foundation or sandy foundation, which is holding on to that firm foundation. Yeah. And I think seeing what we're doing is not just our Sunday hobby, but seeing it as we are part of a great work, the way Neomyia phrased it, I think is helpful.

This is a great work we're involved in. This isn't just this thing I do on Sunday. This is the greatest work we can possibly be involved in, President Nelson said, right, is the gathering of Israel. That's beautiful. So the next time you're tempted, just look at whatever that temptation is, and say, no way, son, balat, to buy a gashm, I will not come. I will not come down to the plane of, oh, no.

I know you want to cause me, miss, you want to do me, miss, Jeff, I'm staying up here. You want to poison me by degrees. I will stay right where I am that's awesome what a great lesson Jared this has been fantastic if I'm a listener at home and I've read my chapters of Ezra Nihemiah what do you hope my major takeaways are I think probably the biggest takeaway I get from these two books is this desire to have a religious community. They have to come back and reconstitute it. They have to reform it, both form it again, but also maybe to change some things that had crept in in the meantime.

There's certainly our personal worship, and that's very important and vital and we should try to in-live in that every day. But there's also a community aspect to our worship. We're part of a broader community, both a Latter-day Saint community, a Christian community, even a believer in God community. It can just look at all these different aspects. And it's those interactions in the broader community that can help strengthen us, where we can serve and love others. And I think that's what Ezra and Nehemiah were about. We're trying to create a community that can grow and be strong and support one another after this upheaval that had happened. They were torn away from their covenant land, from

their temple. And so they had to figure out what do we do now and how do we get some of these things back? So I hope each one of us can try to see what we can contribute to the community around us. Whether that's our specific neighborhood community, whether that's the ward family, or just the broader human family. What can we do to help others and to strengthen those communities? And of course at the center of all this was the temple. And so that's a big takeaway I get from it is as soon as they could get back there, there's some delays with maybe focusing on some of their own things or the opposition delaying things. But eventually they did get the temple rebuilt and made that a focus again of their

worship. And so when I think of my children, Jared, Joshua, Joseph, Marissa, Malia, their spouses, you know, that's what I hope they always focus on is having the temple at the center of their worship. And again, it starts with a personal worship, if we're married with our spouses, then with our families. But then we're serving in the temple, a much broader community, whether that's extended family ancestors beyond the veil, or names that we don't even know, but that we can do service for. know but that we can do service for and that's where I draw strength from participating in this wider work that's centered in the temple. I love that these

chapters have become so much about that temple because I just feel like as we look at the New Testament that was the center of things. Here it's the center of things. They're coming back to it. They're finding opposition and trying to come back to it. I love that part of the newly articulated mission of the church is, live care, invite unite, live the gospel of Jesus Christ, care for those in need, live care, invite all to come into Christ and unite families for eternity. That temple component of it is so great.

It's never been easier to go to family search and find our own families. I think that's part of the joy of it that you talked about, Hank, is because after our first time, it's not just about us, it's about others, and uniting them together to their ancestors, which I think brings us joy. I love this focus today. Yeah, these two books mean a lot to me. As we saw the opposition they faced, it reminded me of what Joseph Smith said,

and most of our listeners will recognize this. He says, the standard of truth has been erected. No unhullowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, columny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth, boldly, nobly and independent. Till it has penetrated every continent, visited every climb, swept every country, and sounded in every ear till the purposes of God shall be accomplished.

And the great Jehovah shall say, the work is done. They were able to rebuild, right, Jared? They got it done. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't automatic. It wasn't easy, obviously, with all that opposition. But with the Lord's help, and that's, and that's one thing maybe we haven't mentioned is there's several prayers included within these texts where they praise God and give him thanks and acknowledge

that it's through his hand, through his power that they were able to do this. Like the Israelites in ancient Egypt, they couldn't have freed themselves alone and they recognized that we needed God's help in order to be able to do what we're doing. Well said. Dr. Ludlow, this has been fantastic. I'm so glad that our listeners got to hear from you. Just so brilliant. I think everyone listening would be interested in your journey that doctorate degree from UC Berkeley and here you are, an all-in believing Latter-day Saint. What's that been like for you? It's been a fun journey.

What I've appreciated about my opportunity for education is particularly when it comes to the Bible, members of different denominations and faiths, Jews, Christians, and even Muslims to a certain extent have studied these stories for centuries, and they've studied the historical context, they've studied the languages associated with them. So there's a lot of gems, a lot of insights that I can glean from these works and from their efforts. And it just has enriched my understanding of scripture, of what's maybe getting a little better sense of what's going on around the text as well as within the text. And yet it doesn't come without its challenges because sometimes these interpretations are different than what I've grown up with and heard in the church. And so

sometimes it's a wrestle or working through figuring out how that interpretation compares with mine and why do I believe this way or why does the church believe this way and so forth. But in that wrestling, I think it just strengthens overall my faith in the restoration in a prophet who didn't have much educational opportunity and yet could produce incredible things by the power of God. and yet could produce incredible things by the power of God.

Now, one thing that I think has helped me, besides a very faithful spouse, Margaret, who is a strong believer and has a strong testimony of her own, and loves to study the scriptures herself. I think it can be an occupational hazard in our field to only study scripture to teach it to others. And so sometimes I have to make a conscious effort that no, this is my scripture study time. And then I will study scripture other times for my classes.

Because I study scripture a lot on my job. I get paid to study scripture, which is kind of cool. But if I only study it for what I can offer others, then I failed. And my testimony can weaken. And I won't have that Holy Spirit strengthening me. And my wife often reminds me is make sure you don't just learn this to teach students and strangers, but that you are teaching your kids these things do. And I do need to do a better job of that to make sure that I'm passing on some of these things that I feel are important that I'm learning and passing those on to my own family.

And I think just being grounded in the things that all of us are asked to do regularly has helped me to maintain my testimony, to maintain my faith, to realize that if I just take a biblical scholar's word, there's another biblical scholar that's gonna have a different opinion. And so if I just place all importance on this scholar said X, then it must be true. Then I could be led astray and feel like, well,

what the brethren have taught isn't as important or female leaders of the church. And so I try to keep devotional in my personal life, and then study all of these aspects for my professional life, and then to augment what I study in my personal life. Excellent. It just made me smile because sometimes I think when I'm studying to teach, like you said, I'm kind of like in the back of my head,

this doesn't count as scripture study. That's right. The church is preparing your class, I'm kind of like in the back of my head. This doesn't count as scripture study Just preparing your class and this isn't the same thing I'm glad you said that John I have a feeling I had this vision in my head of me bringing this big book of scripture study and saying look at all that And he's like well, of course none of this counts because it was your job So let's and I'm like wait that's all of it None of this counts because it was your job. So let's and I'm like wait, that's all of it He's like and then let's see what we have left here I'm happy you said that to Jared and just to have someone who has the education and background that you have

Say this boy prophet Joseph Smith produced incredible incredible work I think that that is helpful for our listeners to hear you say, look, I've read, I've studied, what this kid produced is undeniably astonishing. Yeah, the book Mormon is incredible. And this from a Bible scholar, that helps our listeners say, you know what I'm in the right place? I'm doing the right things. So thank you.

We want to thank Dr. Jared Ludlow for joining us today. Wow. What a great day. I now feel like Ezra and Neha Maya are my friends, John. They were doing a great work. Jared did a great work for us helping us understand these books. We want to thank you for listening. Thank you for staying with us. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. And come back next week, as we study the Book of Esther on our next episode of Follow Him.

We have an amazing production crew. We want you to know about David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoten, Crystal Roberts, and Al Kuuhadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.