Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Genesis 18-23 -- Part 2 : Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Episode Date: February 13, 2022

Dr. Peterson continues to discuss Genesis 18-23 and the impossible choices Sarah, Hagar, Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac make as they heed the Lord's commands,  wrestle with identifiable human emotions, and reap considerable blessings.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers/SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Part 2 of this week's podcast. Okay, what do we do next? Well, you know, this next story is one that we really don't want to share with children. About Lawton is two daughters, and... But for one thing, it's trying to explain how the people of the Ammonites and the Moabites come to be. And I've sometimes wondered if it wasn't just a little bit of a dig at the Moabites and the Ammonites on the part of the Israelites. You know where you come from? Here's your story, because you can read Moab as sounding something like from Father and

Benami, which becomes the Ammonites, which is still preserved by the way in the name of the capital of Jordan, Aman. Their name is still there. Oh, holy. Yeah. You can get that name from Benami, son of my people. It's a, it's a kind of an awful story. So the idea is the writer is trying to take a dig at his current neighbors who he doesn't like saying, look where you came from. I think so. Here's your relatives, but your enemies, and here's the really disreputable story of where you come from. It's like if you really want to get in a dig and remember the Church of England, the Episcopal Church, bring up Henry VIII and his lawyers. It's not quite the highest spiritual level

for the origin of a church. And in the future, the Moabites, the Ammonites caused problems. Yeah, I've wondered where this comes from, but that makes sense. The current author looking way back is saying, hey, I have a chance here to think of the Moabites. The Ammonites were basically upper-end

where Aman is today. So directly across from Jerusalem here. Think of the Moabites. The Ammonites were basically up around where Ammon is today, so directly across from Jerusalem on the Jordanian side of the Jordan River and the Dead Sea Valley, and then a little bit to the south are the Moabites. We are roughly where Petrae is. That's actually really helpful because I've often thought this is odd. You know, Chapter 20, again, it's kind of an odd one. The story of a Bimlek and Sarah and Abraham saying that Sarah is his sister. This is just trying to protect himself.

And it's kind of a half-truth. She is his half-sister. So yeah, which, you know, today we would not see that as a legitimate marriage, but in the old days people married within their clans and their tribes. So this is not uncommon. But a bit more oddly enough, in both the stories he figures in here and in a later chapter, comes across, well in chapter 21, comes across as an honorable guy. He says, I haven't done anything wrong and I didn't know that she was your wife.

I mean, you said she was your sister and she said you were her brother and the Lord is saying, watch out. And he said, why didn't do anything? And the Lord says, I know you were innocent. I mean, it's interesting that the Lord interacts with a Bimilek, who is not an Israelite or a descendant of Abraham, but he's not a bad guy in this. What does that name mean, Abimelec? Because it looks like Father Malek is it King? Yeah, my father is a king, probably. Yeah. I've been Malek.

Look at you, John. I think members of our church know a lot more Hebrew than they think they do. When you start to look and read those words slowly and melkez, and Zekai, and stuff, and you start to, well, if that means this, then that's got to mean this. And, and Ab means father, and I just, so I just wondered what that. Yeah, that's exactly what it means. And, and in the story, he's, he's not a bad guy. But I don't know what else we need to say about that story, really,

other than that you have this little kind of awkward incident with a Bimla Kincera in Abraham, and it turns out okay. Well, that's a lot of the Old Testament, a series of awkward incidents. Yeah. I've noticed, Dan, that Abraham is definitely not perfect. It's almost as if the Lord is saying, he's still my guy. Right, like I'm gonna show you that I chose him. He still makes mistakes.

He still does things very things that are somewhat foolish. He's still my guy. Right, and I think that's really important for us today. I'm, I will say one of the things that has bothered me sometimes, and I have enormous respect for the brethren, please understand that. We sometimes put them on a pedestal so high

that then someone will come along and say, well, you know, elder so and so and so and so disagreed about something. Or I once encountered an elder so and so and he wasn't maybe as friendly as I thought he would be or something and I think, you know, they're not perfect. And I mean, they don't claim that. None of them ask to be there.

I never wanted to be there. No, no one in the right mind would want to have a calling. Hi, you're called to your dead. It's funny when Elder Gong was called to the quorum of the 12. I've known Elder Gong since we were students. And it was the first time in my life that my first reaction when I'd heard that he'd been called to the 12 was oddly pity because I thought here I'm about to retire and he never can. Yeah, but you know,

I just think they didn't ask to be there. They were just people who were doing their duty and trying to do the Lord's will and they served as elders quorum presidents and counselors in Bishop Ricks and and then one day they were called to be in the 70, and then perhaps one day in the 12th of the first presidency, they never claimed to be perfect. And we do that. We superimpose that on them. And I've actually run into people who have left the church or had their attitudes

where the church damaged, because they found out that the presiding brethren are human. And I think, of course they're human. Name me an Old Testament prophet who wasn't. I mean, Abraham we can see he wasn't. Well, a lot of them, Isaiah, for example, we don't know much about his personal life, but, but I'm betting if you knew Isaiah, you'd think, well, he's a really good guy, but you know, he has these quirks or, you know, he's not as patient as he could be or something. I don't know what it would be. I've always loved a line from Lorenzo Snow, who lived in the Joseph Smith household

for a while, and he said he saw his imperfections. And did this dissolution him not even slightly, said, I thanked God that I saw what he was, and that gave me hope from me. God can use imperfect people because if he doesn't use imperfect people, then I'm out the window. I mean, I, and you know, he has to work with imperfect people as Elder Holland himself has said, because that's all he's got.

So he's got, must be incredibly frustrated. And he deals with it. I'm reminded two of a Stephen Covey story when he had some sort of assignment where he would be working closely with some of the brethren and somebody was like, well, don't lose your testimony. And I love Stephen Covey's response was, well, they didn't give me my testimony and they cannot take it away. That's exactly right.

That's the way it should be. And maybe there's a lesson from a Bimolec here of, how do you deal when you find out the Lord's servant? Isn't perfect. He's actually pretty gentle with him. Like, hey, why'd you do that? All right, well, behold, my land is here before the, do I wear it please, if they, okay? It reminds me a little bit of Paharan and Moroni.

When Moroni unleashes some pretty unfair attacks on Baren, he doesn't know the full story. Paharan says, I rejoice in the greatness of your soul. He could have gone after him and said, you jerk. Yeah, you have no idea what we're dealing with up here. Yeah, but he doesn't. I think what a wonderful response. Now talk about greatness of soul. Yeah, you see it in that response. And when Nephi sees Lehigh murmur, right, he doesn't say, well, I'm never going to deal with you anymore. I'm so disappointed.

He puts more trust in him. Yeah. More faith. You know, I just think there's a lot to be learned from this. And yes, the Old Testament is full of very human people, some of whom do terrible things, even some of the good people do. But we should learn from that. Is it Ambrose Beers in this devil dictionary

who describes the Bible as a work of scriptural, a scripture admirably suited to the needs of my neighbor? We should be reading this and not saying, boy, that's just like Bob. We should be saying the question that's asked at the last supper, is it I? Is it I? Lord, is it I? Is it I Lord is it I? Yes

Am I the one am I guilty of this and the answer all too often is yeah Yeah, you are and and those have been the some of the greatest moments for me in studying scriptures when I suddenly realized Man, I I've I've kind of done this maybe not as bad as this character did but I Can't point the finger at him Who am I to judge? I can't remember who character did, but I can't point the finger at him. Who am I to judge? I can't remember who said it, but I thought it was brilliant. They say that Pope is infallible and nobody believes it. Well, in our church, we say our leaders are fallible and nobody believes it. Right. Or nobody will let them be. You know. Right. Speaking of callings, I remember a kid when I was serving as a single's ward bishop over

by UVU. I had a kid that I'd serving as a single-sword bishop over by UVU. I had a kid that I'd been working with who had some issues and we worked with him for weeks, maybe months. And finally, there was one evening where I said, you know, I think you've done everything I asked you to do. I think I can say on behalf of the church and the Lord, I feel comfortable saying, I think you're done, you're good to go. And he said, oh thanks, I'm sorry I've taken so much of your time and I said, oh, that's

why they pay me the big bucks. To which he responded, yeah, I've always wanted to know how much do they pay you to be bish-ed. And I thought, you've got to be kidding. And my response was, they don't pay me a nickel, nothing. And I said, I wouldn't do this for money. I'll do it for free, but I wouldn't do it for money. That is such a great story.

That's from other Teresa. Someone saw her cleaning up a leper and in the guy said, I wouldn't do that for a million dollars. And she said, neither would I. Exactly right. I'm sorry, I'll go on another tangent here. I had an experience. I'm so old that I was in Switzerland at one point and Harold B. Lee came through.

He was president of the church then. But President Lee came through and he had been with my mission president. My mission in those days, Switzerland, was responsible for much of the world. I mean, if it wasn't under a mission, my mission in those days Switzerland was responsible for much of the world. I mean, if it wasn't under a mission, it was under Switzerland because Switzerland was neutral. And so most of Eastern Europe, most of Africa, north of the Congo, the entire Middle East, everything over to Afghanistan, because we could do things out of Switzerland that didn't offend countries there.

So presently it had gone on a circuit of some of the mission trying to get legal recognition in Athens and in Jerusalem, and it didn't work. It failed. We failed in all those places at that point. Then he came through and he spoke to the saints at the Swiss temple in Solakhofen. And I remember seeing him. It was the first time I'd heard about an Ashen complexion. I'd never seen one before. And it turns out he died a few months after that. He had heart issues. But I remember seeing him and thinking, he looks terrible. I mean, he doesn't look healthy.

And so I was naturally surprised when he passed away. But I saw him speak to the saints in the meeting house there in Solacoff and adjacent to the temple and then he stood outside in Sallocoff and adjacent to the temple and then Steve stood outside and shook hands with everybody and talked with him for a good hour and a half afterwards Looking like he was about to fall over and I again, I felt sorry for him. I thought He knows he's the first president of the church to have visited since this temple was dedicated in 1955 by David O'Makeh He's there for the saints and he can barely stand up. I'm sure that if he could, he'd like to go lie down and nap, but he can't. And

who would want a position like this? Waste and wear out your life, literally. Yes. This kind of... When President Kimmel was told by Dr. Nelson, you may remember this, you need to preserve your strength. He says, for what? Oh! What am I? I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I wear myself out and then the Lord calls somebody else.

Yes, the way it goes. So, well, I guess we probably ought to move on to chapter 21, which is an important chapter. So this is where the Lord visits Sarah as he had said, and he did unto Sarah as he had spoken. She conceives and bears Abraham as son, and they call the name of his son Isaac, and it's important to know that the name Isaac has to do with the Hebrew idea of laughter. It means he laughs. So there's all sorts of punning in this chapter of a Sarah laughs and people will laugh with me. Or some interpreters, she says, you've made me a joke now because I'm so old and you know, people will laugh at me. But anyway, the idea of laughter and Abraham is a hundred years old. So he's

now got two sons. He's got Isaac and he has Ishmael, who was around before and is probably substantially older, maybe around 10 or something like that. And in verse 9, Sarah saw the son of Hega, the Egyptian, which she had born into Abraham mocking. Now, there's disagreements about how to take that. Sometimes, he's just laughing. Here, it's kind of a derisive mockery. Others have him actually playing with. He's playing, maybe, with Isaac. So, I don't know exactly how to take it.

But in any event, the thought that occurs to her is he's older. And there could be a disagreement about who the proper heir is, even though I'm the primary wife. So I want him gone. And this is not maybe Sarah at her best. But again, it's human. It's very human for her to say, I don't want that boy around. I don't want his mother around.

His mother made fun of me probably. For a lot of years, she was able to have a baby and I wasn't want his mother around. His mother made fun of me probably for a lot of years. She was able to have a baby and I wasn't. She's a slave woman. I'm the primary wife, but did I get respect from her? No. So she said, I wanna cast out. Son of this bond woman shall not be air with my son,

even with Isaac. And how does Abraham react? Oh, he's upset. I mean, this is, it is his son. He's raised him. It was his only son it is his son. He's raised him. It was his only son as far as we know for a long time. And so he loves Isaac and Isaac will be his heir, but it's not like he hates Ishmael. But God says, don't be worried.

I'll take care of Ishmael and the Bond woman. Do whatever Sarah wants, because Isaac, don't worry. Isaac will be the one in whom I see it is called But also of the bond woman verse 13 will I make a nation because he is thy seed and we often forget that That's a point that that I think ought to be made course. I'm an Arabists. So I would make it but you know I've heard Howard W. Hunter and others make that point too. Remember Abraham has other children, not just the children of Israel, but the Arabs. There are also Ishmaelites descendants of his other son, and there are promises to them as well. And God here is saying that, that I will make him a nation.

Don't you worry about him, he'll be fine. So what would I write under here in verse 13, a nation, the nation of Islam? Yeah, the Arabs basically, the Arabs, I would say, most of whom are Muslims. And so they are the children of Abraham as well, not the children of the first born, but they're not without scriptural promises and not without scriptural status. In Islam, Ishmael is regarded as a prophet, so is Isaac. So they venerate both of them. Dan, I think our listeners would love a little bit of a rundown of the beginnings of Islam

and how that comes about and how it ties to Abraham and Ishmael. The Arabs have long regarded themselves. the traditional genealogies make them descendents of Abraham through Ishmael. That's universally accepted in Islamic tradition. And so they venerate Heghar, they venerate Ishmael. In fact, part of the annual pilgrimage involves what's called the, well, it's a run between two little hills called Marua and Safa. And they run between them, and they're reenacting the search of Hegar for water for her son Ishmael, who's about to die in the desert, and then is saved by God. And they actually believe that that happened in Mecca, and that Ishmael and Abraham restored the Kaaba, the shrine there in Mecca, the well that's sprang up at God's inspiration is the well called Zemzem in Mecca. The well that sprang up at God's inspiration is the well called Zemzam

in Mecca. So that's where they think that happened. But yeah, Islam begins in Arabia in, well, with the birth of Muhammad in a way in 570 AD, then his call in 610 AD, when he's 40 years old, he's working as a shepherd among other things and as a caravan leader. And he is regarded as a descendant of Ishmael, a proper heir. So he is a legitimate heir to the prophets. They see themselves as continuing the line of prophets. They recognize Abraham and Isaac and Ishmael and Jacob and Moses and all of the others as prophets, including Jesus. And then Muhammad is the latest in that line of prophets, but they all come through the prophetic line, which is essentially the biblical line.

And you've got the Lord saying here to Abraham, but also of the Son of the Bond woman, will I make a nation? That's right. He is thy seat. Yeah. So, so I hear some letter of A Aecent's feel as if they have to choose between the Jews and the Arabs. I'd like to say that the Arabs are really conflicted, first of all, as much more complex than a lot of people realize. The more I learned about it, the harder it was for me to choose one side and say, boy, they're right all the time, and that side is wrong all the time. Because they've been good things and bad things done on both sides. Especially for a lot of day saints, we had to recognize they are both children of Abraham. And we ought to be trying not to have the ones smite the other.

We ought to be hoping for peace between them. As Abraham, I presume, is hoping. Yeah, yeah, good point. What does Abraham want to happen here? I think I've heard that in the Muslim belief is that Abraham was going to sacrifice Ishmael. That is what most Muslims today I think would believe. But here's the interesting thing. I remember once in a class years ago and I first started teaching at BYU, I had some Palestinian students

in my Islamic humanities class. And I gave a basic history of Islam I think they took the class because they thought it would be an easy A when they got their first D on a test I think they realized it wouldn't be as easy as they thought Growing up in the neighborhood doesn't necessarily equip you to answer the questions But I said to them, you know the interesting thing is the Quran never actually identifies the Sun who is You know, the interesting thing is the Quran never actually identifies the Sun who is nearly killed by Abraham And one of them sitting in the front row said that's not true. That's not true. It says it was Ishmael I said, okay, you go home and you find the passage in the Quran that says it was Ishmael and then come and show it to me

Well, he never did because it's not there the Quran says he nearly sacrificed Ibnahu his Sun it's not there. The Quran says he nearly sacrificed Ibnahu, his son. That's it. It doesn't identify him. And I checked once, years ago, the greatest commentary in early Islam comes from about the 9, well about 930 AD. And it kind of summarizes all the previous commentaries. And even then, about half of the commentators that Atabari, the author of this commentary, cited said it was Ishmael, and about half said it was Isaac. They were still disputing over that. I think now, if you asked almost any Muslim, they'd say it was Ishmael. But I suspect that may have more to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict with anything else. It's our guy, not their guy.

But the Quran doesn't actually say that. And for centuries at least it was an open question for even Arabs, about whether it was their ancestor or the other people's ancestor. Interesting. And the fight continues, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. But it's an intra-femilial fight,

which is kind of what makes it especially sad. I've had some experiences where you know on the street unless they're dressed in peculiar ways, you can't always tell an Arab from Israeli. I mean some Israelis look really European, but many don't. I remember being in a hotel in Nazareth years ago that was kind of jointly run by Palestinians and Israelis. And I would go up to the desk and I'd say, taking a look at him, I'd say, Shalom and start to talk. And I would go up to the desk and I'd say, taking a look at him, I'd say, Shalom and start to talk. And the person would say, Salam. Okay, sorry,

sorry, sorry. Next time I come out and say, Salam. And the person says, Shalom. I said, okay, from now on, it's hello. I just can't tell. So they are very, very similar and genetically I'm told, they're very, very close. It would be hard to tell a difference. And so that's what makes the conflict in so many ways so sad. Yeah, and when we take our trips there, I was expecting to see a lot of division, but yet a lot of them, a lot, you know, our bus driver, Machmoud is a Muslim and our guide is, is an Israeli and they get along. And they're up there talking and laughing and you're going, this is not what I saw on the

news or what I perceive. And yeah, same thing. And we're talking about the same guys too. Yeah, I've seen that many times. Some of them are good friends slapping each other on the back and telling jokes and and so About the flea yeah, right that gives me hope sometimes and then sometimes I lose hope but but you know But anyway, they are related. So you know this story about haggar is an important one It's the background story to the Arabs as they themselves would tell you And another story about a bim like where a Bimlek looks like a good guy. But I think we have to get on to chapter 22, which is a hugely important chapter. It says that God did tempt Abraham, and verse 1 of chapter 22. I think it really should be a test or a proof or something like that.

He tested him and said, Abraham, and he said, behold, here I am. And he said, take now thy son, thy only son Isaac, whom thou loveest, and get the end of the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains, which I will tell the of. Now, especially if you remember the book of Abraham, where Abraham is trying to get away from people who do sacrifices, and he's nearly sacrificed himself. Then God comes to him and says, sacrifice your son. You know the one that you've been waiting for for a hundred years, and the son in whom your seed will be born and who will fulfill the prophecy that I gave to you, the son that you love, the only son of your primary wife.

I know this has got to be, boy, to talk about it as a gut punch, you know, a punch to the solar plexus, it's got to be an understatement of the century. He must have been horrified, but he believed it was God. And so if God asks it, he says, I will do it. And of course, that's the that's the thing that is later on accounted to him for righteousness, that he's willing to do it. Now people have talked about this and talked about it, it's a major thing, and not only Jewish, Lord, the Akhidah, and the binding of Isaac, because it's called among many Christians, it shows up as we've already hinted at among the Muslims. Everybody talks about everyone is horrified by the story

And what to make of it some people say well that shows the god of the Old Testament is evil Well, but he doesn't actually follow through on it He doesn't have Abraham's sacrifice his son and it may be that Abraham believed I think there's an interesting line here where he says to the young man that are with him. In verse 5, a bidee here with the ass, an eye in the lad will go yonder and worship and come again to you. Now, maybe he's just lying, but maybe also some commentators have said, maybe he thought that if he fulfilled this requirement, God would raise his son again from the dead, and that they would return.

Yeah, we'll be back. Yeah, but he tells them, we'll be back, both of us. And so he's confident in God in some way, I think. I, you know, again, it may just be that he's telling him a story, we'll be back and then, you know, he'll come back with something. So they don't go to stop him. Yeah. But, but that is an interesting way of reading it,

that he thinks, no, we will be back. However, this is going to work out, I can't imagine. It takes three days to journey to where he goes. They're coming up from down by Hebron, or even further down by Bechev, and the extreme south of Israel. From Dan to Bechev, I used to be the formula from the north end to the south end of Israel.

So going up to Mariah, which is roughly where this must be, Mount Mariah is there. Some people say under the temple mount itself. It's quite a journey, it's three days. What do we know about this, by the way? It suggests that Isaac is old enough to walk. He's old enough to be three days away from his mother.

He'd been weaned in the preceding chapter or a couple of chapters ago, a couple of chapters ago. So he was at least three then. Jewish tradition says, they put sometimes as old as 37, that he was an older, I mean, he was old enough to know what was going on. I would say, I would guess that he was at least 10 or 12 and maybe in his teens, maybe even older than that. So that's one thing I want to say about Isaac, is that at some point he knows what's going on.

And his father is old. He could have said, are you kidding me? You're demented, you know, I'm gonna, ha ha ha, this is not gonna happen, this is not really God, but he trusts God and he trusts his father. And he's willing to do it. He lies down upon the wood. It says that he put him on the wood. But he laid him on the altar upon the wood.

But I'm guessing that Isaac is old enough he could have resisted. He didn't. So one thing that I would say for Isaac here is total submission to the will of God in faith. And it's boy, we talk about Abrahamic tests. This is the Abrahamic tests. And it's an Isaac test, apparently, as well. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. So you know, and he's asking these questions along the way. I see the fire on the wood, verse seven, but where's the lamb? You know, we always have a lamb for the bread offering. Abraham says, my son, God will provide himself a lamb for a bread offering. So they went both of them together. God's going to handle this. Okay. But then at some point, he realizes what's going on. Abraham builds an altar. And this isn't done in 15 seconds. This takes a while. And so Abraham is right to the point where he stretches his fourth hand and takes

the knife to slay his son. And only then the angel of the Lord calls him and says, Abraham, Abraham, don't do it. Don't lay your hand upon the boy. Don't do anything to him. Now I know that thou fearest God. And the King James fear here's probably not the word we would use today. I think it's reverence God. You hold him in awe. You respect him. You so respect him that seeing that has not withheld thy son, thy only son from me. This is the only son of the primary wife. And then Abraham looks up and sees this ram caught in the thickets by its horn, and the ram is sacrificed instead. I mean, this is obviously for Christians of foreshadowing the sacrifice of Christ. That we are about to be punished for our sins

and Christ steps in on our behalf and takes the punishment for us. In some way, we don't understand. We don't know how this works, but in some way, he is the sacrificial ram, the ram caught in the thicket in a way, except that he's more like Isaac in some ways because he's voluntary. And I think when you see him in the Garden of Gethsemane, he's saying, Lord, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. I put a lot of weight on those words. I think it's possible that the mortal Jesus may have even thought, you know, maybe just maybe.

At this point, my willingness is enough. I am willing to do it. If it be, I will, I'll do it. But you know, if there's another way of doing this, I just assume not. But if you want me to, I will. And then he has to do it. And but I think some I've heard some Christians talk about it as if well, he's God. It's easy for him. No, I think we have to assume that it was terrible for him. If you don't, then it doesn't mean as much. It was agony, it was prolonged agony and so on.

So he's in this way like, I think it's an attractive idea to think that Isaac is old enough to know what he's doing as Jesus was. Jesus knew what he was going. He's carrying the wood, right? Yeah, yeah, he's carrying, like Jesus carrying the cross

to the hill. He's carrying, it's digging your own grave. I mean, you're carrying that wood eventually knowing what it's for. Yeah. Well, and when you said that about suffering, and I thought, yeah, that's, I mean, last year, section 19, I, God, have suffered these things

for all that they might not suffer. Like you said, it's not just, oh, well,, I, God, have suffered these things for all that they might not suffer. Like you said, it's not just, oh, well, he's a God. This is easy. No, he suffered. He suffered. And he told Martin Harris, which suffering caused myself, even God, and went through that, you know, bleated every pore and suffer both body and spirit.

And it's not just for a few minutes. It starts in the garden. We let it say, no, and it continues until he says it is finished. And that's a long time. And I don't want to get it in the gruesome details. My wife was sitting here. She'd be elbowing me right now. But I think we need to understand that crucifixion was a gruesome, gruesome, horrible way to die. And he's already in terrible crisis from his experience in the garden of Gethsemane. I don't like crucifixes that show as mutilated Jesus on a cross. It's not an image I like to contemplate, but every

once in a while, I think, well, maybe we should just realize the price he paid. It wasn't like, oh, well, you know, I go and I get myself nailed across and I die and hope he everything is better. It's hour after hour after hour of intense suffering and mockery and injustice and assumed parallelism. I mean, he could have stopped it, but he doesn't. And King Benjamin hints that it's even more suffering than a human could suffer because the human would die. Yeah, human would die, But the idea that Jesus said over and over, no man take it to my life from me. And so it was a voluntary sacrifice. And I see Isaac here.

I don't read anything that says he resisted. He said, what are we doing? As you were saying, Dr. Peterson, it's kind of a willing sacrifice there. Dan, I was going to ask you, what do you say to someone who says, I just don't believe in a God that would do this, would ask this man to sacrifice his son, or that would sacrifice his own son? Right? Like, I've heard that before. What do you, how do you,

it's a difficult thing. I mean, Paul talked about it, that it's a stumbling block, and it's foolishness to some people. We have to understand, first of all, it's an expression of compassion on the part of Jesus. I'm not sure I understand the idea of the atonement, because I think that atonement is maybe the crucial concept in the gospel and someday when I understand it, I'll be there. You know what I mean? That it's beyond I see enus. You know, oh Lord, how is it done?

I don't know exactly how it's done except that there was, as I understand it and correct me if I'm being heretical, but my sense has been that in some sense there are laws that God himself cannot break. And there is a law, there is a kind of justice that needs to be satisfied. And in some way, the atonement satisfies that justice. It has to be done. Mercy cannot rob justice. And so the law has to be satisfied. And Jesus offers Himself a willing sacrifice to do that. It's an act of, I wouldn't concentrate on the cruelty of it,

which I don't think, I don't think you have a bloodthirsty God up there kind of delights in this sort of thing. He agonized through it. The father did, and the son obviously agonized literally through it, but it's an act of incredible compassion. As Paul says, most of us would find it hard enough to die on behalf of a good person, but while we were yet sinners, he died for us.

He died for people who, a majority of whom are maybe going to mock him right through most of their lives or ignore him. They're not going to pay any attention. He does that for not just saints, but sinners. So I'd focus on that, but I think that there was just no other way to do it. That's what it seemed. Yeah. There is no other way. I don't like the image of God the father as some sort of sadist who says, you know, you have to buy me off. I still remember a being invited by a chemistry professor. I got to know in Cairo is an Egyptian Muslim and we got to talking and he asked, are you studying Islam? You're studying Arabic and I said yes and he said,

are you a Muslim? And I said no. And he asked, why not? Which is a question I didn't like. I don't want to say, well here are the flaws I see in your religion. So I decided to answer it affirmatively. I'm a Christian because I believe in Christ

and I'm so on and so forth. And he said, well, let me ask you a question. He says, you believe that God has a son. Which of course everyone knows is nuts. God doesn't have a son, because that's something that Muslims can't accept. And then you believe that God sent his own son into earth and then tortured him to death to buy himself off.

Is that what you believe? And I said, well, no, not exactly. And I wouldn't put it that way, but it's something on that order. It is something on that order. And I say, yeah, I do believe that. And he says, well, how could any intelligent person believe that? And I said, well, intelligent people have believed it for 2,000 years.

A lot of highly intelligent people have found this a satisfying, a believable doctrine that something had to be made right. And we couldn't. And so the sun steps forward to make it right on our behalf. And how that happens, I don't know exactly. I hear various theories on the atonement and I am persuaded and see issues with all of them and I think I just don't get it.

But someday I hope I will. Yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you for the answer. I've focused on the compassion. My fallback verse for a lot of things, a second Nephi 224, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who know with all things. I guess somebody smarter than I know is what's going on. And I like the line from Nephi who says,

I don't know the meaning of all things, but I know that God loves us. He loves his children. Yeah. And so... For the first Nephi 11, 17. I get that issue a lot of times, I have to say with critics of the church who will come up with this or that issue. And I say, you know, there are some issues where I'm not sure I have a really good answer that would satisfy you. In a couple of cases, I'm not even sure I yet have an answer that fully satisfies me, but there are things that I know, and those are so powerful that a lot of the other stuff, and it's usually

less of this stuff, just doesn't bother me because I know this to be true, and the rest seems to follow along. Do I understand it? No. That's John 9, 9 right when they said well Jesus is a sinner and he said well whether it's a sinner or not. I know not but this much I know I was blind Now I see like that's pretty important to me you guys go debate that all you want. I'm gonna go enjoy my eyesight Yeah, a little different comment is when someone says to bring me young well, you know, Joseph, Joseph was this and that and Joseph said something Alright, bring him said something like well, and I he wasn't obviously granting this He says, you know, even if Joseph swore a streak a blue streak as long as your arm still he brought a doctor and will save you and me

And so you know these other issues are peripheral I say with things I know that are hugely important and the atonement works on my behalf how exactly it works I don't know but I don't know how my computer works. I don't know how my car works exactly There are a whole lot of things that I turn on and their mysteries Doesn't just not like producing them. Nope So this is a remarkable story and then the angel of Lloyd calls to Abraham and says Because you've done this thing and haven't withheld thy son, I swear that in blessing for 17, in blessing I will bless the in multiplying, I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven. And in blessing I will

bless the in multiplying, I will multiply that's a kind of Semitic way of intensifying. You use the verb and the, you know, a variant of the verb in Arabic still today, you know, you say, I hit him a great hitting or something like that. You're beat the verbal form as not. I have dreamed a dream. Yeah, exactly. Seen a seeing. Yeah, I've used that actually. It's this great Arabic grammar to my students. I see you want to see one of these? Book of Mormon. Behold, I've dreamed a dream. Yeah. Pognitive, I think it's called a cognitive accusative.

Pognitive accusative. A cognitive accusative. How dare you accusative my cognitive. So and then I see, shall all the nations of the earth be blessed because thou hast obeyed my voice. And so that's a hugely important verse there. And so we're promised in the oath and covenant of the priesthood in section 84, for example,

that if we are faithful, we become the sons of Abraham, the children of Abraham. So Abraham becomes literally the father of the faithful and everybody who is faithful, we adopted into, you know, even people who receive patriarchal blessings who may or may not be the literal descendants of this or that tribe become, they're adopted into in a way. The same mass, right? Yeah.

Which is, by the way, let me say, another older Arabian idea, people were often adopted into tribes after the rise of Islam. The tribes were really important. And then people would join Islam. And then in the first generations, they didn't quite know how to handle that. So they'd make them honorary members of Tribex or TribeY. And then after a few years,

it didn't matter anymore, whether you're really a descendant of X or Y. You now were a member of the tribe. And I think that's the same thing here. Abraham becomes the father of all of us in a way. Could I go back for a second and yeah, I just remember reading one of Truman Mattson's books and he mentioned a conversation he had with President Huber Brown and why would God put Abraham through that knowing that Abraham, he knew what Abraham would do. He has foreknowledge, he's God. But the answer

that I liked from Hewby Brown was that, yes, God knew, but Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham. And I've always loved that answer. I thought, you know, the Lord could kind of just put us in one of those kingdoms in section 76 right now and say, well, I already know what you're going to do, but our process of becoming would be taken away and learning about ourselves, I guess. And so that answers help me. I don't know. Yeah. I like that.

Can I just add a story, maybe that Truman told me once about his grandfather, who was Hebrew J. Grant. I don't know if this is written up anywhere or not. I haven't seen it, but that doesn't prove anything. But it was when Hebrew J. Grant was a young member of the Quorum of the Twelve, and he was called very, very young. And there was a prominent member of the Church who had been excommunicated. And the question came up of his being reinstated in the Church. And I think it was John Taylor who presented it to the quorum of the 12 and everyone was pretty much okay with it He paid his dues and he could come back

Except he were Jay Grant who felt that he had disgraced himself He had disgraced the priesthood and saw him and he said no and apparently this went on for some time It came up once again and then President Grant went home or elder Grant at that point went home And he picked up the scriptures and opened the scriptures and read the passage, I the Lord will forgive who my will forgive but have viewed as recorded forgive all men. And he said it hit me right between the eyes that I was being too harsh. And he said I went back to President Taylor's office and I said to him, I was wrong, I take back my objection. And President Taylor said to him, I was wrong. I take back my objection. And President Taylor said to him, heber, I didn't really need your approval to authorize

his rebaptism. But I wanted you to learn something really important. And he says, I feel that you have. And it may be President Taylor even had a sense who knows that he was a grant with some they'd be president of the church and he needed to learn this. But sometimes it's not about the problem itself. It's about us learning how to deal with the problem or what we are or what we're capable of.

Sometimes I, you know, when you read these blessings, you think I want to be in the family of Abraham, but then you learn about the what's asked of Abraham. You're like, I don't know if I want to be in the family of Abraham, but then you learn about what's asked of Abraham. You're like, I don't know if I want to be in the family of Abraham anymore, right? It's this. Yeah, much is given, but much is going to be required. Well, and we even have people claiming that just kinship to Abraham alone was enough, and that's, you know, what Jesus would say, well, God can make of these stones, or was it John the Baptist? John the Baptist, I think. Yeah, Jesus can make it these stones, children of Abraham. It's not your pedigree chart, you got to act like it, you know. No, there's again a pre-Islamic Arabian story

about that one guy who started off as a slave and then earned his freedom and people used to attack him for his lack of lineage. And he said, well, I represent the beginning of my line. You represent the end of yours. You know, you come from good family, but what have you done? You know, you're nothing. And I think that, you know, it's important to understand that those things don't,

don't mean anything. I would say too, there have been times in my life where I've wondered, is it really a blessing to be an active member of the church? When I grew up in a part-member family, my father wasn't a member of my mother was marginal and I sort of activated myself. And I remember going through a period

in my high school years, this is California in the 60s, you can imagine. And all my friends were doing things that I couldn't allow myself to do. And I would feel guilty about being three minutes late for sacrament meeting. And they never felt guilty about anything. And I thought, is this really an improvement, you know? And I told people before that for me, the time when my testimony is, I commented before we were setting the time to do this, that I'm a kind of living, walking, breathing violation of the doctrine of governments.

I covered it. I aspire to retire to my bed early, but I just keep doing things and I just can't go to bed. So early morning is rough for me. And when I've been in leadership positions that are required early morning pre-stodemetings or leadership meetings, that's when my testimonies that it's lowest. When the alarm goes off, I don't want the church to be true. I just like to go back to sleep.

You know, other people sleep in on Sunday. What's wrong with me? So, you know, but I think, yeah, much is given, much is required. And that's true of the children of Abraham. So it's in that way a mixed blessing. It's a huge blessing. And ultimately the blessings will outweigh the demands by far. But in the short term, sometimes you wonder, wow, this is rough. Yeah. Chelsen to do a job to bring in the harvest,

to bear the ministry is not chosen to sit on a throne and be admired. It's a different kind of chosen. I remember a friend of mine that had known he was a faculty member at BYU who was called into the seven day and I ran into him once overseas and was just talking to him. I said, so how are you doing? He said, he'd had a bad day, I think. He's a Dan, let me tell you, the law of consecration is a check with an unlimited number of zeros. You know, just, just asking. Wow. But, you know, I've thought to myself a friend's been called as, well, one in particular, I think I was a mission president who

interrupted a really lucrative specialist medical practice to go and serve as president of a mission. I remember him saying to me once, he said, you know, I just thought to myself, I've been preaching sacrifice for the kingdom of God all my life. When this call came, it kind of shocked me. But he said, I finally decided, okay, talk this cheap, you know, you gotta put your money where your mouth is. So he took a real hit and he came back, he was hoping to retire, he's still working

because he had to make up for the three years of lost income and so on and so forth. But it is demanding. It was never meant to not be demanding, I think. That's the blessing and if you will, the challenge of being children of Abraham. Yeah, that's awesome. Blessing in a burden, it's both.

And, but like you said, and I think it's good to end with that, the blessing outweighs the burden. We have such joy and connection to such joy, and it's probably got to say that. Well, and that's just in this world. Yeah, that's just now. Yeah, in the life to come, incomprehensible blessings. So I've had many friends say as Bishop,

they said, you know, it's tough, but it's my favorite calling. Yeah, I help people. I felt that I had some callings where I thought, well, I'm really busy, but am I really doing any good? You know, I won't name the one particular calling which I dreaded being called to ever again. I just spent long Sundays at the end of the day. I couldn't think of a single useful thing I'd really done. Especially if there's some that, you know, an administrative calling. So a lot of administration that that's got to be hard

That's a talent that they have and That's it's hard to find the same kind of joint and administering then ministering Yeah, when I was a bishop I'd come home at the end of a day or sometimes early in the next morning And because I had a word where people sometimes couldn't do interviews until I got off a work at 1230 or 1245 You still be there? Yeah, I'll still be there. But I think, okay, I am really tired. But in the sounds cliche, but it's a good kind of tired. I feel like I did some good say. And occasionally when you could tell someone, I think you're okay with the church now. You know, I can give you a temple recommend. I think, okay, this is worth it. Wow, this feels so good. Absolutely.

I think you're exactly right. It is hard work, but it's a good kind of work. It's a, the hymn says, sweet as the work. And I felt that expression before when I was a bishop. I tell my students all the time, the Lord never asks us to do anything addictive. You don't really see people going, no, I need to I need to pay my tithing. I'm having withdrawals. I need to go serve. I'm having withdrawals. Because he knows when we do it, we'll love it. We'll love it. I think the adversary is just the opposite. He knows you're going to figure it out. I got to get you addicted. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

That's right. That's right. Is there anything in chapter 23 that? Well, Sarah's death and this kind of curious negotiation between Abraham and Ephraim the Hittite. It's probably sort of ritualized. I mean, they all say, well, let's just give you, but they weren't really going to do that. This is just kind of what you say. And they bargain back and forth. And Abraham just wants the cave eventually hands up with the field and the trees and the cave and everything else. He's bought more than he maybe wanted. But these are important parts of the claim of the Israelites to the land. That, for example, that Abraham digs a well and then he has a Bimlek certify, you dug the well.

And then here he buys the land for burial. His people are buried there, including himself, is buried there a little bit later. And this will be part of the historic claim of the people of Israel to the land that they've been there and they own property. That would be important to the author of Genesis. I think so. Yeah, I think so. And to subsequent generations, this is our land. We've been here for a long time. We owned it. It was bought. I mean, it was we got it legitimately Because they're gonna leave. They're gonna leave and go to Egypt right and then come back to come back And they're saying part of this document of Genesis is we have claim on right on this land even though we were gone for so long Yeah So I think that's an important part of the story and then of course the

Yeah. So I think that's an important part of the story. And then of course the just Abraham's affection for Sarah and you know the passing of an important, she's not a patriarch, she's a matriarch, but it's the passing of an era really. Verse 20, the field and the cave that is therein were made sure unto Abraham for a possession of a bearing place by the sons of Hath, so the inhabitants of the territory have given him land in that area. And this is a site that's still venerated today. You can still go, although I wouldn't recommend going to Hebron right now. It's kind of a politically dicey place,

but you can still visit the cave of the patriarchs there in the mosque of Abraham, where the Muslims, and maybe the right place for all I know, venerate that as the burial place of the patriarchs. I've never put this together before, but I'm just looking at the Lord saying, wow, you've done it with this Isaac situation. You're going to be blessed, be on all blessing, and but he still buries his wife. Right? So there's a humanist to that of blessings, blessing, blessings, but not free from no. Great blessings come to you. President Kim was

the revelation on priesthood and spends his last years in serious physical ill health. Well, many of his last decades really, every profit goes through that. They're human just like the rest of us. I remember watching President Hinckley Barry, his wife, and the grief on his face, right? And you're thinking, oh, he's a prophet. They'd been inseparable for years. He was confident of seeing her again, but there's a separation there, and that's painful.

We had a friend who passed away a few years ago who lived to an advanced age at an emeritus member of the 70, but I got to know him only after he'd been made emeritus. He was the brother-in-law of someone I know quite well and so we spent a fair amount of time with him and I just saw him as he, he and his wife, especially his wife, became more and more ill and less and less able to do things

and having to cope with immobility and so on and he'd been You know, I remember the 70 and a proud lead a temple president and so on But it's the human condition. We all go through this It's like watching present-monson his first talk is present the church where he's wiggling his ears and his last talk where he can barely Hold himself up. So they're not exempt from that kind of thing. And again, I think sometimes some members of the church expect them to be sort of like Superman.

And sometimes they are. I mean, President Nelson, I don't know what to make of him. He may live forever. But, but you know, quite often they're not. And I'm sure that President Nelson has his days. If you're that age, you've got to have them. Can I tell you a Marian D. Hanks story? I once had the opportunity, like several stakes in Denver decided to do a Book of Mormon

weekend or something. And so they invited a group of us to come over and speak, and there were four of us. It was Jack Welch and Truman Madsen and me and Elder Hanks. Oh my gosh. Can I go? Elder Hanks and I were paired off and we spoke in one set of steaks one night and we switched the next night. By the way, we went to a gospel doctrine class that Sunday.

How intimidating. Oh my word. I thought this poor woman teaching the gospel doctrine class was was gonna faint. I hadn't even thought about it I wasn't so much me, but I thought Truman Mads and Marion D. Hanks Jack Welch, you know good grief That was awful. That was kind of cruel in a way But but anyway Elder Hanks told me a story the one thing I really remember about this trip is more than anything else was his He told me his favorite story of calling a steak president. It has nothing to do

with anything else that we've talked about today, but I've loved the story and I've shared it multiple times since then. He said, he was at a steak and he interviewed and interviewed and he said, I just hadn't found the steak president. Nobody there jumped out at me as the steak president. So he said, can you bring me a list of the high priests in the stake? And they did. And he said, he went down the list. And there was one name that sort of glowed on the page, sort of pulsated. And he said, was this person here today? No, don't think so. Is he active? Oh, yeah, he's active. Does he live far away? And they said, no, he's fairly close to the Steak Center.

Could you take me to his house? They said, yeah, sure. So they drove him to the man's house. He rings the doorbell. The wife answers the door. And he says, brother, so and so here today, and she says, yes, he is. He was feeling a little under the weather,

so he didn't go to meetings today. And he said, well, could you invite him upstairs? And she said, yeah. So he comes up, man does. No, hang says, you know why I'm here today, don't you? And he says, yeah, I do. The other day it occurred to me that I would be state president. So I thought if I just didn't go to the meeting, you wouldn't call me. No, hang says, that's not how it works. He called him to be steak president. He said, they turned out to be an exceptionally good one. But he said that was his favorite story because it was sort of like Jonah. Yeah, but I was just

going to say, maybe if I just stay away, I'll choose some more. The job mistake. You can run, but you can't. I. That's right. Dan, this has been absolutely fantastic. I think everybody listening has, I can just see them in their cars and in their living rooms going. This guy is amazing. This guy is so good. I think those listening would be a little bit interested in your journey, this vast education that you've had so much exposure to the world, especially Islam and the Middle East. And here you are, faithful, Latter-day Saint. I think our listeners would want to know a little bit more about that. Can you share a little bit that with us? Sure. Well, I was born in a part-member family in Southern California.

My father was a very inactive Lutheran from North Dakota, and my mother was a semi-active, mostly inactive, Latter-day Saint from Southern Utah. So I was raised occasionally going to church. It was sort of a social thing. But I think if you had asked me at the age of 11 or 12, I was a thoughtful kid. I think I would have considered myself an atheist. Church didn't appeal to me.

It was boring and, you know, I didn't want to go. When we did go, I didn't enjoy it that much. I didn't have that many friends at church. For some reason, my world didn't have a lot of kids my age. And so even in high school, I didn't have any Latter-day St. Friends. They were just none. But one of the things that first hit me was I stayed home from school one day of sick, or maybe I was really sick. I don't know. I can't remember now. But I was home and we had inherited a book from my grandmother who'd passed away some years before. It was by Nephi Anderson, it was called Added Upon. So, a little novel basically kind of a forerunner I suppose to, to some of the musicals, Saturday's Warrior, you know, the plan of salvation laid out. I've tried to read it since then and haven't been able to.

It's pretty stilted and it's just dated, but I read it then and because I was bored staying home. And it laid out the plan of salvation in a way that I had never heard before or hadn't been listening. I don't know. Just the whole sweep of the thing from premortal existence on through mortal life and life afterward in the potential destiny of human beings. I just thought, this is the grandest, most spectacular thing I have ever read in my life. I've never registered with me. So the church is not just about boring Sunday school lessons and sacramenings, I think,

will go on forever. This is dramatic, this is amazing. And so I began to pay attention and I became pretty active, you know, when my parents weren't. My father wasn't even a member and so I'd go to church on my own when I could drive and and I became quite serious about it. And another turning point for me was when some friends in the ward who knew that I didn't get much support at home, but thought that maybe I could use a little more nourishment. I said, well, we're going to be having an education week at nearby, I think it was in West

Covina. I grew up in San Gabriel. We're going to be having an education week. And we're going. It's three days or four days, whatever it was. I think it was four. And we'll take you if you'd like. We'll pick you up in the morning.

We'll take you. And you can stay as lazy as you'd like. And I went there and it was a feast. I mean, I look back and Daniel Ludlow was speaking there. Truman Madson spoke. The three D's did music. Who else spoke? And Bruce Arma Kankiew, the first quorum did music, who else spoke. And Bruce Arma Conkey of the first quarter of the 70s spoke.

I don't know if he ever did that again, but he did that one and punitively spoke. I mean, it was like a paradise feast for me. I thought, okay, if that's what the gospel is about, I'm in. And if that's what BYU's about, I'm going, no question where I wanna go. This just thrilled me.

I loved it. I mean, Truman was giving lectures on existentialism and logical positivism, but he was making them so interesting, even those of us who didn't know anything about them. We're just eating it up. And so to me, early on, there was a sense of the grandeur of the vision

of the gospel and the intellectual excitement of it that has never left me. I still feel that. That this is the grandest vision, the greatest story that I can imagine. There's just nothing better. And so I came to BYU initially as a mathematics major. I wanted to be a poster, a life-size poster of Albert Einstein on my dorm dresser or a dorm cupboard or closet. And I wanted to be that and then decided, no, it really wasn't me. So I switched of all things to Greek and philosophy. I'm sure that my parents were so pleased. What a lucrative field to go into.

You know, you can just really make a fortune doing classical Greek and philosophy. Huge demand. Yeah. Yeah, huge demand to their credit. they didn't give me a lot of trouble. I mean, I might have had I been in their place, but they didn't. They were quite supportive. And meanwhile, interestingly enough, I was having conversations with my father. And then the time came for me to serve a mission. And about that time, I'd just stop talking with him. He would always argue with me.

They were good-natured arguments, but he'd always sort of push back. And finally I decided, no, this isn't going anywhere. It's never gonna happen. So he actually raised the issue with my much older brother, 10 years older than I am, half brother, actually. He said, isn't Dan interested anymore?

My brother said, well, he's given up on you. And so my dad began reading on his own and reading Hugh Nibbler was one of the factors that influenced him. So the night I was set apart as a missionary, you know, the day I gave my farewell Sunday, my parents put on a little missionary farewell, they're kind of discouraged now a little bit, but we did them in those days and buy everybody over. And my dad came up to the bishop and said, Bishop, is there any chance that I could be baptized before my son leaves? I think the bishop nearly fainted. They'd known my dad for years. He'd been his nickname among some of the less reverent members of the

world was Bishop because he'd helped build the chapel and things like that. But he just wasn't interested. Well, he joined within a year actually slightly less. He was in a bishopric himself, but anyway, so that's how we all got to be in the church and when I got back, we were sealed in together in the Los Angeles Temple. But I decided fairly early on that the kind of work Nibbli did fascinated me, and that I wanted to see if I could pursue it further and So I began with classical Greek and I did some other languages and then I heard Nibbli give a talk once on Arabic Now if you wanted to study anything study Arabic

He was one of his Arabic phases. I learned later. They lasted about a week and a half each and there were five of them So but he got me and so I began studying Arabic and that kind of led me to where I where I ended up. But my other interest has always been not just Islamic studies, but the gospel. I am seeing how the gospel fits not just into the Middle East, but philosophically, how how rich are these doctrines, how profound and powerful are they? And so I was sort of caught between Truman Madsen doing the philosophy side of things and he nibbly doing the ancient world. And I have not been disappointed. I think the gospel is as rich as can be and that when we, I see some people who say, well, it's a shallow as a puddle.

And I think that you haven't done the work, because to me that's just absolutely not true. And to me, the answers it gives, the meaning that it suffuses life with. I mean, ordinary acts of daily mortal life become really important when viewed in the context of this, you know, what some people have called a three-act play or in the second act, right? They don't make any sense if you don't know

about the first act, but because there is a second act, right? They don't make any sense if you don't know about the first act, but because there is a last act, they're important. They lead to what's going to happen to the third act. To me, the gospel just gives so much significance. I cannot imagine living in a universe that I thought was objectively meaningless as some of my atheist friends do. I just don't, I don't know why get up in the morning, why do anything? I can sort of see amusing yourself until you die. Yeah, and be nice to the people around you because that's in light and self-interest.

They'll be nice to you when it comes time for turnaround. Other than that, I just, I can't see any reason to go on. And I know people do because they distract themselves with things. If you're frenetically active all the time, like the old scene in Man's Search for Happiness, you go to the amusement park and it's just noisy and loud and bright lights. But if you ever step away from it, start thinking, boy, it's just not a very nourishing diet. So, you know, I've spent a lot of time, I've been involved in what some people call apologetics, you know, defense of the church for a long time. And I've seen there may be a major argument out there that I haven't seen, but I doubt it very much.

People constantly come to me and say, well, you have, you want to wear this? Oh, yes, I am. Have been for a long time. You'd be surprised. I had these inclinations when I was young. I was reading stuff about the mountain meadows massacre and plural marriage when I was 17. So no, you're not going to surprise me. And I don't believe, because I don't know about those things. I see the big things that are true.

And many things I think we have answers, even on the few things where I think, I'm a little puzzled, I'd like to talk to somebody about that when I meet him in the next life. Still, it's not enough to knock me out because there are certain things that I'm quite confident of. Am I confident that the book of Mormon is true?

Yes, my confident that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. Yes, I am. I'll tell you one thing this reason witnesses Film that we did and the document that's coming out shortly The witnesses are part of the secular anchor to my testimony. It's not It's not the spiritual side. That's something altogether different But I have studied the witnesses for decades. I don't know any way to get around them studied the witnesses for decades. I don't know any way to get around them. They're sane,

they're honest, they're intelligent, and they claim to have seen the plates, held the plates, heard the voice of God, seen an angel, and it's not just the 11. When we get to the document, we'll be talking about just about the three, but also the eight and the unofficial witnesses, you've got something on the order of 15 people, 16, 17 people maybe, just found one, or a friend found a month or two ago, another unofficial witness to the plates that I'd never heard of and I don't think any member of the church ever has. I will wait until he writes that up and disclose it. It's just a minor experience of going to the Smith household, asking to hold the plates and Lucy Smith said, yes, you may. And he held them and he said, they were very, very heavy. I'd never heard of this. Boy, I can't wait to see that published. But there was clearly something there. And he didn't see an angel or an angel, but others did. And

to my mind, that's powerful stuff. And I don't know any way to get around it. And so what this tells me is the gospel is true. More important than that Joseph is a prophet is that Jesus is the Christ and that there is a God and that this life has meaning and that it doesn't end at death. And I've not seen any evidence that would convince me otherwise. Unanswered questions, sometimes yes. No knockout blow, no serious counter-evidence, and lots of evidence for, which I think some of our critics ignore. I have spiritual testimony, but intellectually, I'll close maybe with this.

I have tried, I think, honestly, and seriously, to concoct a counter-explanation for Joseph Smith and his claims. Is there a way that I could explain them without invoking the divine? I can't. And I've tried hard. You might be able to account for this element, but not that element. And sometimes the explanation for this one contradicts the explanation you'd come up with for

that one. The simplest explanation for me is it's true. If I were going to offer one single secular argument for the truth of the gospel, it's that no counter-explanation works. Doesn't account for all the data. And he's been, Joseph's been dead a long time. You've had your time to come up with an alternative theory. If the book of Mormon was shallow fraud, man, it should have been obvious a long time ago. Right. 192 years now, it's been since it's been published. Dan, this has just been fantastic. Really. It's been so good. We want to thank Dr. Daniel Peterson

for joining us today. Wow. What a great day. Thank you to all of you who stayed with us today and listened. We love you. We're grateful for you and your support. We want to thank our executive producers, Steven Shannon Sornson and our sponsors, David and Verla Sornson. And we hope all of you will join us

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