Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Genesis 28-33 -- Part 2: Dr. Jeffrey R. Chadwick

Episode Date: February 27, 2022

Dr. Chadwick returns to discuss Jacob's wrestle, his children, and the importance of names in the Hebrew Bible, as well as Jacob, covenant-making with the Lord, and Esau's redemption.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers/SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Transcripts/Language Team/French TranscriptsAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Part 2 of this week's podcast. And there's a bit of a who's the birthright son. We actually name the tribes of Israel here, and Chapter 29 and 30 you can find them all, Ruben, Simeon, Levi, Judah. You know how many times in Scripture history, the first born son, does it wind up with the birthright. Most major stories. Most major stories.

Isaac wasn't, it was Ishmael who was the first born, then we have Jacob and Esau. You can run down all through the scriptures, run to the book of Mormon, you know, a layman and a Lemuel mess that up. I asked my students, tell me the 12 tribes of Israel and they often can't name them all. So it's kind of fun to go through these two chapters. Listen, I'm not sure there are a lot of people in the building I teach a could name them from memory. Okay. Who remembers Zebulon? Yeah. God, Asher. Yeah. And more people couldn't point them out on a map. Okay.

We're Ephraim centric. And the reason we are is because Ephraim is the umbrella term for the whole northern kingdom, which became the metaphor for lost Israel. Judah was the umbrella term for the southern kingdom and the name of the kingdom, even though lots of Judah were deported, that which remained kept the title Judah. The Jewish people are described in our scriptures with the umbrella term Judah. That's people who are Jews of all tribes, but have never forgotten. They were never lost Israel, even though they're scattered. And Ephraim is the umbrella term for people of all tribes in the gathering. So I had a student one time that said,

Oh, I wish my patriarchal blessing said Ephraim. It says, I said, you're of Ephraim as much as I am, because everybody is, okay? That you have Dan in your patriarchal blessing is remarkable insight by the patriarch to let you know something about you, but you're as Ephraim as surely as I am or everybody else on this planet. And it seems to me, Jeff and these two chapters,

that they're naming their children after how they feel at the time. Is that, am I supposed to get that out of the world? How they feel or some circumstance associated with their birth, but you know a lot of people do that. And it's been done right up until the modern times when basically social culture's been assigning names.

But if you go back to the pioneer times, you have people named thankful or people named trial or people named prudence or people named all kinds of unusual things. We're not immune to unusual names, except that our unusual names are different in the 21st century, but yeah, a lot of times it's circumstantial. And then Joseph is born and he kind of takes center stage here eventually, but you said that Jacob is going to have a couple more experiences before we get to Joseph.

Well, Joseph is born prior to Genesis 32. And Joseph is emphasized by the writers and editors of Genesis, which start with Moses, but it becomes very complicated later, because Joseph becomes the ultimate birthright son of Jacob. And so Joseph has to be emphasized in the narrative. And you know, Joseph is remarkable too. Come back, talk about him. How many Latter-day Saints know that their great grandfather, which is who Joseph is, was the Prime Minister of Egypt? Now, when you look at what's the function, he was the second only to the king and did everything in the name of the king, that's the Prime Minister. That's the executive of government. And how many

know Joseph's wives name? How many know their grandmother, Asinat? Asinat, the daughter of Potipharra, the priest of On. We should know this genealogy because there should be as real to us as people five generations ago. Could you talk about that a little bit because in some of the reading I was doing, and I love to hear you pronounce it because I wasn't sure how to say it. Asinat. Asinat is how you'd say it in Hebrew or even even more like orthodox accent in Hebrew Osnath, but Asinat is the correct pronunciation. Can you talk about the family that she came from? I've heard different, read different schools of thought about De Joseph Mary outside of the covenant family or not. In the teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith, he concluded that she did not, that

Portifara the priest of On, on by the way is Iwun in Egyptian. Iwun was what we know in Greek as Heliopolis, and Heliopolis is a northern suburb of Cairo today, and it's where the airport is. So whenever I fly in the Egypt with a group of students or tourists and we land at the airport, I say your grandma lived here. Because Asinat was a daughter of Potifor, the priest of Heliopolis, the priest of On, that little chuckle. I said, yeah, you just don't know where your ancestors are from, right? Grandma lived at the airport. In any case, when Joseph was ruling over Egypt in what we would call the second intermediate period or the

Hicksos period. Much of the northern population of Egypt in the eastern delta was Canaanite rather than Lady of Egyptian. Canaanites were the same people that Abraham minnest among and were bringing into his clan. And Abraham had a clan of perhaps 2,000 people, right? He could raise 900 men to go to battle in Genesis 14. So he had a big clan and you usually don't think of Abraham as a military warrior or as being a clan leader of a clan that's at least 2,000 people.

But when you can raise 900 people to go to a battle, that means you've got a significant female population as well with that. Abraham wasn't this wandering loner. He had a big group and a lot of those were local Canaanites whom he had brought in. So the Canaanites were people who the Lord told Abraham their nicotine was not full yet. And so they were ripe for conversion. They were a people that could become part of the covenant. And it was Canaanites that had migrated to Egypt in the decades before Joseph. And Joseph actually going to Egypt is part of the general movement of Canaanites into the Delta because the king himself is one of these people.

The Hicksos took over the Northern Delta. The priest, he's going to a point will probably be ethnically like him, which he means of canaanite heritage, even though that even Heliopless. And therefore, would be people who were worthy enough to receive the covenant if they were accepted. I assume that when the king gives Joseph this woman who is the daughter of the priest of on, she is a person who either has already covenanted or would covenant as a result of becoming Joseph's wife. And say, Potiphar's name again, the way you said it. Potiphar is the way it is in Genesis and then earlier, Potiphar that Joseph deals with as the guy who puts him in prison.

Genesis 41, 45, Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zathnat Peaneach and he gave him to wife Asinat the daughter of Potipharah the priest of On. And Joseph went out over the land of Egypt. Zafnat Péreneach, by the way, is a Hebrew transliteration of a perfectly good Egyptian term. Zafnat, which means more or less the overseer or the person who produces Péreneach is the season of the flood. So Joseph or the person who produces Paaneach is the season of the flood. So Joseph is the person who heads all production from the season of the flood, which is by the way when all food was grown. So he essentially is put over the agriculture

of Northern Egypt, which is why he's then saving up for seven years. But that position as the chief minister of the king makes him essentially the prime minister. Yeah, it does. So it's very cool. So authentic Egyptian phrase right there, transliterated into Hebrew that nobody sees unless they learn a little Egyptian.

Yeah. And John, you and I will have to use that. You know who I am. My great grandfather was the prime minister. He was the prime minister of Egypt. Well, he's 20 years older, right? So you don't recognize people immediately. And he was speaking in Egyptian to him. It's using it. I don't know. Yeah. Boy, what a revelation that was. Talk about the mic dropping. Yeah. I am your brother. So Jeff, so far far what I've seen is Jacob is having revelatory experiences

He's finding God in the most maybe difficult times and he has some really serious Family relationship complications that he has to deal with his entire life. He sounds a lot like us Yeah, except a little more famous. Yeah, he's a little more famous. His family relationship issues are going to be a little bit different. If you get back into chapter 33, 33, 35, a couple of his kids are committing today, what we would say is murder, Levi and Simeon. Jacob has to leave because his name is a stink in the land. And then he has this terrible experience in Genesis 35, where his beloved wife, Rachel dies in childbirth,

giving birth to Benjamin. And he has to bury her on the road. He buries her outside of Bethlehem, just the way the pioneers had to bury at Martin's Cove, because he had to bury. And so he doesn't even get the take her back to Hibrahon, which is why some of the most wonderful places to visit in the Holy Land today are the tomb of Rachel,

just north of Bethlehem, as well as the tomb of the patriarchs Abraham Isaac Jacob and Sarah and Rebecca and Leah in Hipporon And then the tomb of Joseph up in Nablus too. By the way, just one last thing Do you know at the end of Genesis 50 what they did with Joseph when he died? He made him promise that they take his body when later on, when Moses would be the, and back to the Holy Land, and then it says, Joshua buried the bones of Joseph, which they bought out of Egypt. They buried in Schem,

which had been Jacob's first plot of land that he bought, and which then would fall as Joseph's inheritance. But at the end of Genesis 50, how do you get a body to last 400 years? It says they embalmed him and put him in a coffin in Egypt. Your grandfather Joseph was a mummy. Think of that. What are those mummies that you see?

That was Joseph, he was a mummy for 400 years before they brought him out in the Exodus. I'm learning all sorts of family history. More interesting family history. My grandfather was a mummy. He was the prime minister of Egypt and then he was a mummy for quite some time. What I'm trying to do is just try to help people see that you can find yourself in these stories.

And if these are our fathers, Jeff, we should probably expect to have similar revelatory experiences, difficult experiences, family complications. This is probably going to be our story as well. We use the word fathers so easily, our mothers as well. Remember, Rebecca has revelation. Between Abraham and Sarah, Rebecca and Isaac, Jacob, and Lee and Rachel, there's revelation, there's discussion, there's hardship, there's tension.

Okay, you see a little tension between Rebecca and Isaac. You see more tension between Sarah and Abraham over the issue of, you know, Ishmael and et cetera. You more tension between Sarah and Abraham over the issue of, you know, Ishmael and et cetera. You see tension between Jacob and Leah and Jacob and Rachel and you see, you see everything we go through. It's, it's amazing how if you understand the context of Scripture and also the covenant and belief that they had, how they make it work in spite of all the problems.

That's a lesson for us. You make it work. Yeah. Okay, so let's do Genesis 32, where Jacob's given the name Israel, because this is really key. And I'm going to just look at a couple of verses here. It's when Jacob is getting ready to come over the Jabuck River, where in Genesis 32, verse 24, he's at the banks of the Jabuck River. In fact, verse 22 mentions that most of his

family, his two wives, Lee and Rachel, and a lot of the kids and others had passed over this forwarding point, this crossing point, and he had remained on the other side of the river. It's the breaking of day. And in verse 24, it says, Jacob left alone, wrestled with a man at the breaking of day, not until but at in terms of the Hebrew. When he prevailed not, he touched the hollow of his thigh, the hollow of Jacob's thigh

was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. This is a kind of a weird story, frankly, that doesn't make a lot of sense to people. And it doesn't, to me, except that what I see here is the hand of an editor trying to make sense of a story

that he, the editor, doesn't understand either. Okay. So I'm gonna come back to verse 25 and 26 because I've actually put X's through 25 and 26, meaning don't rely on these two verses to understand the story. Go from 24 to 27. So in 26 where it says, the guy wrestling with Jacob said,

let me go for the day breaketh and Jacob said, I will not let you go except you bless me. Then in verse 27, when the guy says to him, what is thy name? And he said, Jacob, that's where you pick it up with what's really going on. Now let me go back to the word wrestled in verse 24. In Hebrew, this is the word Yahwehk, which is a fine term in Hebrew for to grasp around and to wrestle, and it's used to indicate wrestling in Hebrew, but what it indicates is a grasping around, a clasping. It's also a cognate to the word avak, which means dust, which is why people think of it as wrestling because you wrestle around on the ground and get dusty. But that's not really what it's

saying here. What it means is that there is a grasp going on. Jacob is in the grasp of someone at daybreak. And being in the grasp of someone doesn't make sense to the editor, so he makes it out into a battle where Jacob's thigh is injured. And by the time you get to verse 32, it says, the children of Israel don't eat of the sinew that shrank upon the hollow of the thigh to this day because of Jacob's thigh injury. That's a very strange way to end a story. But what it means is that the editor's not sure about this, and an earlier edition mentioned that his thigh was hurt, and a later editor said, okay, so that thigh must be the reason we don't eat this sort of cut in the meat, certain cut of meat.

You could really see people try to figure this out. But if you skip from 24, which is this class big-around episode, down to 27 and you start to dialogue, this may seem familiar. Because Jacob has asked, what is your name? And he gives him his given name, Jacob. Then, as the exchange goes on, he says, well thy name shall no more be Jacob, but Israel. He gets another name, Yisra'el, which means God prevails. And some people will say that this means you shall prevail with God. The idea of let God prevail is very important here.

But whatever it is, it's God prevails. And that becomes Jacob's new name, his other name, his additional name. He doesn't lose his given name, but this becomes the additional name by which the covenant people become known. We don't talk about the house of Jacob as often as we talk about the house of Israel. And by the way, when you go to the house of Lord, notice how many times we are taught today that we are royalty in Israel. Israel is mentioned again and again and again in the teachings and covenanting that we do. And ultimately when we go into those greatest of the ordinances of the

House of the Lord, which is marriage, the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob become full. And so this whole idea of being Israel and having all the covenant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is inherent again in this most important place for us. But going back to this then, you have this interview where names are mentioned, a given name and an additional name. And then, account stops, because whatever the name is that must be given back to Jacob cannot be reported. He says, why do you ask?

And that was it. He blessed him there. That was it. But the editor, the author, everybody there stops completely with the dialogue. After exchanging given names and additional names, the dialogue stops at that question. The name back can't be reported. And then in verse 30, after it's all over, Jacob gives the name to that place, just the

way he called his place years before Bethel, he calls this penale. Not penile, but penale. Penale means face. Penale, the face of God. Because he said, I have seen God face to face and my life is preserved. So the sun rose on him there. Pnau El is actually a corruption of Pnael here. And he was done. And then it says he halted on his thigh. And so you get that whole other part of the story that I don't really think originally was there. But if you just read 24, 27, 28, 29 and 30 together, you have an idea of what's happening to Jacob.

And again, it is something we're very familiar with as Latter-day Saints who have taken out those great covenants. Very familiar. So I just love these chapters. And what I love is that what we have in the restoration has always been had if you knew how to look for it. If you ever wondered is the thing that the Prophet Joseph Smith gave us, leaving aside the masons and leaving beside the reorganization and the rebuilding and the constant editing and restripting of things that we do in the temple over decades, the basic things and the basic doctrines and the important covenants that we have today have been here since the time of Genesis.

And the very ancestors whose name is attached to the covenant had them as we have them today. You have the messengers in Jacob's ladder and then you have this experience, this wrestling. Of being face to face with God and the conversation of names. This is great. And if you will, we may never see this again, while there is this embrace. Yeah. I want to hear what you think about 33 then is this reunion with these two brothers. I'm seeing myself in this story.

And then you've not only has Jacob got a complicated marriage situation, but he's also got a complicated situation with his brother and siblings. And he's also got a complicated situation with his brother. With his siblings. And he's told to go back home. Well, I love the chapter. I love the chapter.

It's one of the ultimate feel good chapters in Genesis, because if you allow it, time heals all wounds. There's a rift in the family, it could come to blows back in Genesis 27 and 28. Which is why he has to leave, right 28 which is why he has to leave right there Which is why he have to leave and why he's reluctant about going back He's worried all through Genesis 32. What's gonna happen when I meet my brother again? But when he does and this is why

You have to let ultimate judgment of anyone Including those who may not decide that they want to live and abide by the covenants that we do. Why you just let judgment be in the hands of the Lord? Because basically there's a lot of good people who are not where we're at. And Esau was never where Jacob's at.

But over time, Esau had matured. He had become a man of accomplishment himself. He gained some degree of wealth, and he began to appreciate, as he grew up, the brother that was his twin, and that he had driven away's fears in this regard were not going to be a problem. Many other regards are problem because he will lose his wife, Rachel, in Genesis 35. But with Esau, all was well. And it just goes to show that as Jacob did, if you make every possible effort you can to overcome a perceived hurt. And Jacob, of course, we're gonna send a big gift

of livestock to Esau. Esau said, Puh, no problem, we're brothers. It's so good to see you again. And if you will do everything you can to overcome the difficulties that you see, but then just let things work out very often. The goodness of people comes out and you know, I don't think Aesaw ever became really a covenant guy during his mortality. But he turns out to have been a pretty good guy once he became an adult.

I can live with people like that. People don't have to believe and covenant the way I do for me to love him and appreciate him and learn from them and consider them to be close, close friends. Even members of the church who might not be active or be where I'm at, I can be as close to them as to anyone else. And thankfully in my life, I have a lot of those types of people. Yeah, that's beautiful. I saw that in verse one, that Jacob sees Esau coming with 400 men, he's got to be thinking. Yeah, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. It's this awesome turnaround.

Esau runs to meet him and brace him, fell on his neck, sounds very prodigal son, type language, kissed him and they wept. Who knows what Esau has gone on, what's gone on with Esau? Because he's not the focus of the story, but how did he work out with those wives that he married that Rebecca was done happy with? How did his family work out?

What was his relationship like with, we don't hear of a Rebecca again, we only hear of Isaac, you know, when we get back to Genesis 35 and that he was almost dead and he did die shortly after Jacob gets back. So we don't know if he ever saw Rebecca again, but Esau would have been there with both of them. I assume he repaired that relationship the way that he went about repairing the relationship with Jacob. And that Jeff, there's so much application for people today.

This is where the rubber hits the road. I mean, this is things that are on our minds most, our family relationships. And sometimes there's rifts and yeah. Yeah, I love these two brothers coming together. And even this huge gift in Esau says, I have enough my brother, keep that bow, has toyself in verse nine.

Really nice. Well, that's a Middle Eastern tradition too. You know, you don't take from someone who's lesser than you when you've got more. There's a self-concept thing at work here. I want to give you a gift. Oh, no, you have to be very careful in the Middle East to tell you through the about gifts. Because if you say, you know, I like that pen, you might wind up with it. Yeah. I've seen that too when I go to those stores, you know, as the

tour guide, I'm walking out with everything. Oh yeah. Okay, so speaking of reconciliation, you know, one of the great stories from church history that I recall is between Orson Hyde and Joseph Smith. Elder Orson Hyde, who was senior in the 12, had testified against Joseph Smith in Missouri, was one of the reasons Joseph Smith went to the Liberty Jail, and then later, Orson Hyde came to Illinois, begged forgiveness for having done that, and Joseph forgave him.

It was a hard thing you did to us, our brother almost harder than we could bear, and Joseph forgave him. It was a hard thing you did to us. Our brother almost harder than we could bear, but we receive you back. And, and Orson Hyde then went on in 1840, in 1841 to do this great mission to the Holy Land. But, Orson Hyde and Joseph Smith were, were estranged in 1839. And yet, one repented and the other was gracious. And thus we have Orson Heide until you know clear out here in Utah and down in Spring City. And there was a cost for Orson in that because when the the 12 was reorganized, Orson was not made the president. Brigham Young took that position. The

relationship with Orson and Joseph Smith was restored and Orson went to do great, great things for this dispensation and for the Holy Land. It reminds me of that. It's same time period as WWFELPS who ends up coming back, begging for forgiveness and rights, praise to the man. Right? Exactly. That's a beautiful story of reconciliation. man. Right? Exactly. That's a beautiful story of reconciliation. Is that the one where Joseph Smith writes the letter and says, come dear brother, the war has passed and friends at first are friends again at last. Is that the W W first or friends again at last? Friends again at last. I'm glad he did because I like that song. I'm not for these quiet, you know, pensive, contemplative songs. I like the songs that jump out

jetchings, right? The restoration is great. I love this Genesis 33 moment of let's reconcile. Oh, yeah. Let's, let's fix this. And I wonder just to have this thought that later on in this same book, you're going to have Joseph and his brother's reconciled very similarly. Genesis is a family story. Once you get to Exodus, it's a national story. That's what probably people don't see in the Old Testament. Jewish people see this a little differently. For them, they understand Genesis is the prequel to the story that begins in Exodus. Because from the Jewish point of view, it's the nation of Israel that really begins with Moses

and coming out of Egypt and the Exodus through the Red Sea, et cetera, that is the beginning of the nation of Israel with these tribes. Genesis is the prequel and it's an important prequel because there you get to meet the family that becomes Israel and you get the covenant. And you gotta know about the family and the covenant before you can talk about the nation. But it's Exodus that becomes the big cahuna, if you will, okay.

That Genesis is a necessary prequel too. The law of Moses and Jews today still celebrate the national holiday of the beginning of the nation of Israel. Passover. In fact, all the holidays of the law of Moses celebrated that event, the beginning of the nation of Israel. And we're told in Jeremiah, that beginning of the nation of Israel with the Exodus was the biggest event that people could think about, except that in the latter days there'd

be a bigger one that would eclipse it. Jeremiah 16, 14 says, the days come, when it will no longer be said, the Lord lived at the brought to children of Israel, Adveja, but the Lord lived at that brought to children of Israel from the lands of the North and all the lands, whether he had scattered them. So that the restoration now becomes the culmination of the nation of Israel, the restoration of the nation of Israel. But it begins with Exodus. So that begins the beginning of the history, and Genesis is a family prequel that's necessary background and what a background it is.

That's great. Yeah. What a beautiful background it is. And that makes perfect sense because if you read the Book of Mormon Nephites very much, this is our nation. The gathering will one day occur. Right. Yeah. See Exodus and wilderness motif that's most on Nephi's mind. Of course, they were going through the same thing, but for them, that was the national history. Yeah, I love it. Jeff, Dr. Chadwick, this has been just a fantastic day. I think our listeners would be interested in your story

of your advanced education and your faith and what that journey's been like for you. Well, this is really a fun thing. This started with me as a missionary. I had a great experience in 1975. I'd studied German from high school. I was a sterling scholar in German. So then when I call you to a German speaking mission,

which by the way you never understand, because I fully expected to be called the Argentina, just because I spoke German. But they sent me to Germany and I get down here to the old LTM, wasn't called the MTC back in the mid-September. It's called the LTM, the language training mission. And I had a German teacher who was a German student doing grad work at BYU. His name was Marcus Velnitz, but he called himself Marcus Fun Velnitz as maybe some of your listeners will remember that name because maybe they were German missionaries in

the mid-70s and he was a delightful guy. He was a grad student because me and my companion who'd also had six years of German, they made us the zone leaders of the LTM to get us out of the way of the language classes. But there were these hours where we weren't going to the language classes because they were teaching in basic German and we were way beyond that. And we were just a problem. So Funveilnitz took us with him to class on campus. And we sat in on a class with Hugh Nibbley, two 19-year-olds in a class on Hebrew Bible with 12 grad students and two missionaries and white shirts with Hugh Nibbly studying Genesis.

And I'll never forget this wouldn't happen today because first of all, I can't take people out of EMTC, but it was loose in those days. The second thing is when Marcus brought us to this class that said, listen, brother, Nibbly, I've got these two kinds we don't know what to do with, but I'm responsible for them. Can they sit in the class for us?" And the first thing that he did was look straight at me and speak to me in German and ask me if I thought I understood German well to be missing the classes. And I answered him in German and he said, very well, you may enter. And so the first day we sat down and he opened a big book from the wrong side.

Hey, Hebrew Bibles read from, you know, right to left. So he opened the wrong side of the book for me and began to read Genesis and Hebrew. And then he would translate it and then he would talk about it, beginning with the creation. And I turn to my companion and said, I've got to figure out how you do this. This is where it started.

And so, and I came back and got to know Hugh very well and others and got the degrees and all this stuff. I've listened to people who talk about how learning some of the facts of ancient history, some of the facts about Abraham and the world of Abraham or Moses and the world of Moses has destroyed the validity of scriptures in their minds, how they don't understand how the book of Mormon could possibly be accepted by an educated person.

I want to be careful in what I say, but I've rarely met a person who is complaining about the book of Mormon or the Bible that knows more about it in terms of his ancient origins than I do. And I just say that basically just because I'm old and have accumulated experience, language, archaeology, geography, it's there. I have never found anything that was not answerable. When you approach a problem with knowledge and also with faith, rather than using knowledge to try and escape faith, you will get to the right place. My feeling is that a lot of times intellectual answers to the difficulties of Book of Mormon Authenticity, Bible Auth Bible authenticity, etc., etc. are actually intellectual excuses trying to get away from something that you want to get away from anyway, but you're

looking for a reason. People who want a reason to escape from faith will always find one. And so if I'm dealing with somebody who's struggling with faith, my first question to them is, before we look at the authenticity issues of the Bible, of the Book of Mormon, of the Book of Abraham, where are you at in your faith? Are you looking for a reason to get out? Or are you looking for a reason to believe? Because if you're looking for a reason to believe, we're okay. If you're looking for reason to get out, nothing I tell you is going to matter.

But if they're looking for reason for faith, we can go through these things and point out the authenticity of every setting, every setting from Abraham to Jacob to Joseph to Moses to the prophets of Israel to Nephi to Lehi, even to the ancient American setting. No problem that I bear two witnesses to all my students about our scriptures, and particularly the ancient scriptures that I deal more with, you know, because of where I'm at and what I do. I bear witness that they are true. That's a spiritual statement. I bear witness also that they are authentic, that they

are what they claim to be. And I especially drive that home because the Bible is very complicated, but the Book of Mormon and how we got it today is simple. It was given to the Prophet Joseph Smith by an angel who translated it by the gift and power of God, and it is a translation of real things that happen to real people in real ancient times. It either is what it says it is or it's a complete fake and what I'm dealing with the book of Mormon. First Nephi, second Nephi Jacob, I see in it authenticity that Joseph Smith could not have provided if he were the writer of the story. Smith could not have provided if he were the writer of the story. Those events were told by people who really lived 600 BC or thereafter. The Book of Mormon screams authenticity to this archaeologist, linguist, geographer, historian,

et cetera, et cetera. So I bear witness to the Book of Mormon, it is true. And it is authentic. It is what it claims to be. I'm probably in a position to make that with a more authoritarian opinion to its authenticity than most would be. But I knew it was true long before I could speak Hebrew. And that's always been my guide. That's great, Jeff. What are you going to say about the the next you said the nexus of a couple of things coming together? Is that the same idea? Well,

for me, you know, because I like context along with application and because I do all of these things on a good day, I'm a pretty fair archaeologist and I am known in Israel for that. I do Hebrew Bible as well as anybody I know, quite frankly, and some of my good friends are non-LDS world-class biblical scholars, and I talk with them all the time about things. And so I have this thing where you get factual and intellectual approaches to scriptures, but where I live is in that world, but where it meets at a nexus with faith and with restoration, and they blend together so that I bear this witness, it is true, and it's authentic.

It's both. You may trust it. You may trust the book of Abraham. My friend, Carrie Mulestein, does a lot of great work with that. But before I knew Carrie, I knew Abraham was authentic and I knew why. And the book of Mormon, I know it's authentic and I know why I teach a little class from time to time at BYU called the book of Mormon in the land of Jerusalem, which is a evidences class. Some people would call that apologetics

and they say, I don't like apologetics. I say, well, it's nothing to apologize for. I don't even like the name apologetics. I'm talking about authenticity studies. The same with the New Testament, the same with our Hebrew Bible with the Old Testament, but they're true and they're authentic. They're complicated, so you have to understand the complication, but they're true and they're not. You've been so good to us. Thank you. No, it's just a pleasure. I'm sorry that've been so good to us, thank you. No, it's just a pleasure. And I'm sorry that I talk so much and you talk so little, this is the Hank and John show.

And Hank and John should be in there, but I figured, well, this is my chance to be famous. So I'll give it the best shot I got. This is what we wanted. We'll have to do it again. We have more old testament lessons. We want to thank Dr. Jeff Chadwick for being here. Wow, what a fun day.

These chapters are totally changed for me. And I'm sure John you say the same thing. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Different. That's been great to be here. Thank you. Thank you to all of you who listened. We love you. Thank you for your support. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sornson and our sponsors David and Verla Sornson and we hope all of you will join us on our next episode of follow him Thank you.