Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Hosea, Joel Part 2 • Dr. Aaron Schade • Nov. 7 - 13

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Dr. Schade returns to explore the Book of Joel and a clarion call to return to the Lord and be prepared to meet Him.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYThanks to the follow HIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers, SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two of Dr. Aaron Shady, the books of Hosea and Joel. Thank you mentioned the book of Hosea is kind of a book to be felt and I was looking at the first part of the come follow me manual that says Israel's covenant with the Lord was meant to be so deep and meaningful that the Lord compared it to a marriage. The covenant, like a marriage, included eternal commitment, shared experiences, building a life together, exclusive loyalty, and most of all wholehearted love. This kind of devotion came with high expectations and tragic consequences for infidelity. Through the Prophet Hosea, God describes some of the consequences, the Israelites faced for breaking their covenant. I mean, there's strong, wonderful feelings and some really tragic feelings to there. And Aaron mentioned that Jeremiah 31 was quoted to Joseph Smith.

And I think one of the first things I thought of when we were going to look at the book of Joel is that Morone I talked about Joel to Joseph Smith as well And that's what we're going to look at now is the book of Joel. Let's see the whole book of Joel the whole thing I mean, it's a whole Which is the whole how many chapters all three chapters of Joel all right? So Aaron how do you want to approach Joel about the same way we We did with Hosea, just kind of give us some background and then maybe jump into those verses where you show us how amazing this is. Sure, you bet. What's the background? What do I need to know going into Joel? We just finished Hosea, so now it's time to leave the easy part and get to the hard part. It's got really an apocalyptic feel to the book. I think an important part of it

is also to look at it and realize that this may not be sort of stagnant in one particular place in one particular time and that it seems to represent a composite of several different time periods that lead us up to one, all of these different phases of pies and loaves, destructions, victories, losses that eventually culminate with the coming of the Redeemer who will put an end to all of the wars and contention. And so for Joel, it's tough to try and pinpoint a historical point in time because we just don't know that much about him as a person. And yet the first couple of verses that just says, here you old men and give ear all the inhabitants of the land. At this been in your days or even in the days of your fathers,

tell you your children of it and let your children tell their children and their children another generation. And so you just sort of get the impression that at the very get go that this is about a series of events that is going to take place over a very long time. So there are lots of different references in the book. Most of the references to Judah outnumber those of Israel, but there is a reference to Israel, and some have used that to indicate that maybe this is after 722 when the kingdom of Israel is already destroyed. So, again, it's hard to pinpoint. A lot of the focus is the kingdom of Judah, but ultimately, that's kind of how the book

begins with verse 4, this comparison with the Palmer worm. And so approaching the book sort of invites us to take a look at history from ancient times to future times that will eventually lead us to a paradigm of one who will come in power and redeem and ultimately take charge of everything that has seemed so chaotic throughout the world's history. Do you use the term apocalyptic for our listeners who don't know exactly what that is? Can you explain that to them? So it's just again referring to end-a-day scenarios because oftentimes individual scholars who

are looking at the book of Joel will try and pinpoint a specific place and time for things to happen. And yet this seems to invite us into a broader range than just one particular point, but lead us all the way into a period of time that does talk about the end of day's type of scenario. And that's going to be ushered in in the book of Joel with the figure of the Messiah, the Redeemer, who comes in power and in a way that nobody can really compete with. Okay. That sounds intense.

Let's keep going. What's a Palmer worm? That's the question. In the beginning of these verses, you know, they use the term gazam, which means great locus, arbe, young locus, yalek, other locus, hastil. Basically, we don't exactly know what the author is trying to tell us. It's clear that he is using words for locus and a cadian, which is an esemitic language for Mesopotamia. There's over 20 different words for locusts. And so it's clear that sometimes we look at this as sort of like the evolution of a butterfly going through different phases, one leading to the other, and it's just hard to tell what the author is trying to do here.

So basically, it's clear that if this is a mid-eighth century text or later, so anywhere in the eighth century, we know that Sargon II is leaving inscriptions that talk about these hymns of prayer of relief from locust invasions. So anciently, we know they're happening. We know that there's been some modern examples of this happening, of just these locusts that come in and devour everything. So again, as we approach this, we look at it and say, okay, a locust invasion is something that people are familiar with. And they just are notorious for stripping everything and all the resources and just they wreak havoc. And yet part of what this

also seems to be saying and how this is sometimes approached is that these loccus also represent different superpowers that are going to come through and just wipe the region clean. And so a Joel chapter 1 verse 4 is presented at least in the Hebrew as a way that says what is left of A? Then B8. What is left of B? C8. What is left of C or D8? So by that, I mean these different locusts that are being presented here. And so some people see this as the Assyrians or the Babylonians, followed by Persians,

Greco-Roman period. And so again, just different authors and people who have approached the subject have looked at just sort of these destructive forces that could have represented a variety of different ancient kingdoms that wreak havoc in this region, leading us all the way up to a point where some people apply this to the Armageddon type scenario. So it is a book that describes war of destruction, of discouragement, but again, it also tries to present a message of hope

in the future, and particularly in some of the spiritual gifts and manifestations and endomments of those spiritual gifts that are going to help people recognize and stay close to God through all of these trials. I have a quick question. When you read the book of Joel, do you use KJV? Do you like KJV most on that or are there other? Yeah.

There are several resources. I always like the Jewish study Bible. They try and stay kind of literal to the translations where you get into some of these books that are difficult. But the KJV, I mean, that's what we use. And so I try and stick with that. But there are other volumes that do a good job of presenting things a little more literally.

The footnote in our edition, footnote 4a says, the invading or conquering armies are compared to four varieties or stages of growth of locusts. And then I was reading in the living Bible, and it says, after the cutter locusts finish And then I was reading in the living Bible and it says, after the cutter locusts finish eating your crops, the swarmer locusts will take what's left after them will come the hopper locusts and then the stripper locust too. And it just sounds so thorough. And then you read the next verses in the

living Bible, wake up and weep youunkards. All the grapes are ruined. All your wine is gone. A vast army of locusts covers the land. It is a terrible army to numerous to count with teeth as sharp as those of lions. They have ruined my vines and stripped the bark from the fig trees, leaving trunks and branches white and bare. So it's a happy message. I'm not sure that Joel is trying to give us a lesson in entomology.

It's just that these are conceptions that people look at and say, oh, I understand Locus can do this. And all of a sudden now it's like, we have to worry about these being invading armies because they're going to do the same thing. And we do have comparisons in the Bible and in the ancient Near East of texts that tell us that armies and invading armies are compared to locusts. And you mentioned the transition there to laying the vine waste and stripping down the fig trees. This is really now turning into a lament. So I mean, verse, verse eight in chapter one, lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth

for a husband of her youth. So again, we're just invited into a paradigm that says, Oh, I've seen this. I can relate with this. Somebody lamenting for somebody else who meant something special to them. And what's interesting about all of this is that this focus of disappointment shifts to the temple. So essentially, what we seem to be having here is that this devastation caused by these invasions means that there's no longer adequate wine or flour or oil for the twice daily cereal and drink offerings. So this is now beginning to affect the priests whose sole job is to help remind people of their covenants and engage and renew those covenantal type of responsibilities with God on behalf of the people.

And now when these invading armies, again, if that's what this is really about, that they're going to strip all of those resources and now temple worship is going to be at stake. So part of what this is trying to describe is a physical devastation that affects spiritual development. And ultimately, at this point, is when they start saying, be ashamed, oh, your husband meant how low you wine dressers. This is verse 11 for the wheat and the barley because the harvest of the field is perished. So at this stage, now, this is affecting the priest's livelihood because obviously,

they get a portion of some of the offerings to help sustain them in their lives. So this is now turned to the temple, and this becomes now a lament because of those offerings that are now going to suffer as a result of being stripped geographically in this region. If it isn't invading army, then it's Babylon takes the temple. That's right. So this has larger ramifications for everybody. Aaron, when this is coming down, is this where I, Joel, calls for them to fast? It is.

So at this point, it's now we've realized that there is an urgency, that there is something that we need to react to, something we need to respond to. And it is at this point, chapter 113, good yourselves and lament, you priests, how you ministers of the altar and come and lie all night in saccelot. So this outward gesture that we have to have, abject humility that all is about to be lost. And it talks about for the meat offering and the drink offering is withheld from the house of your God. So everything that they offer in the form of these libations and liquids and grains are about to be lost through all of this. And so the answer is in verse 14, sanctify ye a fast and call a solemn assembly. So that just means a gathering that call everybody in, call in

anybody who will come and gather the elders and the inhabitants of the land into the house of the Lord your God and cry into the Lord. So at this stage, it's a call to come to the temple and again participate now in a fast and a gathering that's specifically oriented towards pleading to the Lord for help. Because again, all of these commodities that are necessary for temple worship that are usually in the Torah described as the giveings of God in the form of blessings.

Now all of a sudden we're feeling that this is a form of judgment, that these have been withdrawn for that region. So the book of Joel feels very heavy on judgment and that behaviors matter, that actions matter. And so now this is a eclarian call that it's time to get back to the house of the Lord and unidently plead for help. And ultimately that's what's happening now in verse 14. Because in 15, he'll ask for the day, for the day of the Lord is at hand. We've got to do something. And as destruction from the Almighty shall it come. That looks like it runs all the way through chapter one.

What's the transition then to chapter two? Is it any different? Or is it the same call, blow ye the trumpet in Zion? This is where again we start feeling the larger scope of Joel. Chapter one, 19 says, oh Lord, to thee will I cry, for the fire had devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame had burned all the trees of the field, and the beasts of the field cry also in to thee, and the rivers of water are dried up. So we just get this feeling that all is lost. And of course, fire and devouring are often associated with the power of God, but now

in the form of the destruction that's coming at the hands of invading adversaries. And so by the time we now get to chapter 2, we're starting to feel like the day of the Lord isn't monolithic, meaning this isn't just something that's happening once or anticipating one event in a future time. But this is now talking about judgments and sort of these cataclysmic type of scenarios that are surrounded by blessings

concurrently through all of this. So we're gonna see these different phases in, yeah, blow the trumpet and Zion. We're now introduced to the concept of Zion. And blowing the trumpet, you're all familiar with, in the New Testament times and the inscription that was found there at the Southwest corner Jerusalem of blow the trumpet because it's not very theologically significant concept in the book of Joel. It's mentioned seven times. And so there might be something about that number,

seven, that numerologically is trying to tell us that Zion is a place of perfection. But it's used as a place of refuge, a place of escape. It's also used as a place where God dwells. Sometimes it's used as a place that defines his presence amongst others and just a place where he'll rule from. So all of these are trying to give us various descriptions of Zion and a place where God's justice will eventually be enacted from. And so the day of the Lord, it serves two purposes in relation to Zion. It's a negative one for those opposing the will of God, but also a positive one who shelters, though. So it really isn't encapsulating this concept

of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And I think the book is trying to invite us, what will that day look like for you individually? Great, dreadful, somewhere in between, but this trumpet blowing now in verse 2 is trying to help us understand for the day of the Lord comeeth for it is not at hand. So again, the question is, which time period is that referring to? Because not all of us will exist at the time when what the book is culminating in and that is the coming of the Lord, but at some point each of us

meets our maker and the question is are we prepared for that? And this seems to be transitioning now to the day of the Lord comeeth and it's not at hand. So it's multiple fulfillments. You could kind of use the book of Joel and different scenarios, and the ultimate scenario is the coming of the Lord. Yes, but that doesn't mean that it's only focused on that one singular event. It's focusing on several different occasions that are supposed to demonstrate the power and judgment of God that culminate with him coming. As I was reading, it feels like almost like a book of revelation type feel to it, where you're supposed to go slow and kind of read between the lines and try to figure out what exactly is he talking about here? Where maybe a contemporary of Joel, this would be easy to

understand. That's interesting that you say that because there's this inscription from D'Arolla, which is in modern day Jordan from the 8th century, and you may have heard of Balam stories and Balam prophecies, and he's actually prophesying in there in the 8th century, so possibly contemporaneous when Elvr Gjol lived, but it has a feel that has some similarities to this, and describing days of darkness in the celestial heavens being darkened and just looking forward to this scenario of putting an end to sort of these cataclysmic type of events that the world will face. So it's interesting that you make that comment that a contemporary may have understood this better because the contemporaries may have been in line with that with some of the inscripional material that we have from that region that understood some of these features of prophecy.

Okay. I read the verses and I get that it's a dark, terrible time. Like verse three, fire devoureth before them and behind them a flame burneth. The land is as the Garden of Eden before them and behind them a desolate wilderness. Yeah. And nothing shall escape them. So it used to be like the garden, and now it's going to be desolate in front of them. Did I get that right? It sounds pretty bleak. Yeah.

Yeah, and of course now our conception of the Garden of Eden, so we think of this lush area, and perhaps we're supposed to be taken back into descriptions of genesis, where all was well, but also that takes us into a paradigm of a fall that is in need of restoration. So there could be something that's harkening in that way, but we're just getting this concept now that there is going to be a desolation, but the theology is that eventually that will be restored into this adenic type of state that just has to do with lushness and prosperity. Do we get there in the Book of Joel? Do we get to the Restoration portions?

This is chapter 316. So the Lord shall roar out of Zion and utter his voice from Jerusalem and the heavens and the earth shall shake, but the Lord will be the hope of His people and strengthen the strength of His children. And eventually it's going to talk about God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain, and describe that there won't be any more strangers coming through and that there'll be rivers flowing through the mountains and new wine and milk flowing.

So there is hope at the end of all of this that eventually all of this is going to be restored in a place where it says in verse 20 that Judah will dwell forever and Jerusalem from generation to generation. So there does seem to be a reversal of this scenario in the end of days, permanently, instead of temporarily. And that's because of the coming of the Messiah. Yes, that is the messianic feel of the book. Let's look at Joel 228 because it's such a well-known one among Latter-day Saints, I would think.

Read that for us, John. And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy. Your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. So as we transitioned from chapter two, three to this fire that devoureth everything, this is where we start getting into verse eight,

that neither shall one thrust another and they shall walk everyone in his path and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. And we're starting to get into really the nebulous, I don't even know how to begin to comprehend. Like, I understand what it says, but I don't know how to comprehend what it looks like or what it means.

Because at this stage, we start seeing now an adversary that basically can't be slain. And so again, we're starting to set up the power of God, the power of his troops because Lord of hosts, I don't know, it's about oh literally means Lord of armies. And so for Joseph Fielding Smith, he looks at this and I think this is in the Old Testament manual where it says he in here Joel is not thinking about any earthly army. The Lord's army is not an earthly army. And he says, but he does have a terrible army. And when that army marches, it will put an end to

the other armies no matter how terrible they may be. And so he says in these closing words, I have read to you that he would do this thing. And he would drive this terrible army into the wilderness bearing a desolate. He's saying, you know what? I'm not talking about the United States or England and all of this. He's like, this is talking about God who actually is coming back. And so for Joseph Fielding Smith,

he's starting to see this. Now, as a clarion call that because we are going to face judgment, and of course within the book, we have the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And Jehoshaphat is a name that means Jehovah will judge. So it is a book of judgment. And it's saying that eventually we are going to encounter an all-powerful God who is merciful, but he also shaphats.

So he also judges. And no matter how hard we try and oppose him, eventually there's going to come a point where that's just not even possible. So the history of the world, so it's presenting all of these different, I guess time periods where people have opposed God, posed as people, and there's going to come a point when he actually comes again in power that that's going to be futile. And so with all of this, we're just seeing these calls in verse 12 that says, therefore also now say, at the Lord, turn ye, everyone, even to me, with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and mourning.

So render your heart and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful. So in the midst of all of this just horrific type of a scenario, we're still seeing that God is gracious and merciful. So again, it's a self-evaluation that says, where do I stand in that equation? And there's a Joseph Smith translation for 14A that talks about repent for who knows but he'll return and leave a blessing behind him that you may offer the meat offering. So it's referring back now to being able to restore what was lost in the temple to now

being able to return back and enjoy that covenant. And again, the blowing the trumpet gather and sanctify everybody. But this has to be sincere. So the weeping and mourning and fasting and the rending of the heart, this has to be sincere. So the weeping and mourning and fasting and the running of the heart, this has to be genuine in these efforts of coming back to God. And when they are, that God is gracious and merciful, that's the good news behind all of this. We haven't talked, I don't think, on the podcast about rending your garments. What does that mean? And why would he say,

rend your heart instead? These are images that are trying to get us to understand, the broken heart, the contrite spirit, to be in a position that just says, I'm totally teachable, I'm totally amenable to God, I'm totally willing to listen and allow him because honestly, now of course the garment had a practical function, but it also could have a covenantal function. And the same with the heart, it's the seat of all of our thoughts or feelings, the desires that we have.

How do we submit those to God in a way that is productive and fruitful for us to the point where I can have a genuine change of who I am, not just in an outward appearance, but who I genuinely become. Because verse 18 and chapter 2, it takes us back into this concept that I will pity as people. So some people think this is a reference directly to Hosea and this Ruchama type of scenario that God is going to have mercy to those who rend their hearts and are teachable and malleable and who are genuinely trying to enjoy that relationship with him. It's available to them. So I can rent my garments, that's outward, but renting my

heart. That's genuine, as you said. It's got to be genuine. And we see that in the new testament. This beware of the outward appearances and the worship that is mostly external rather than something that has been internalized. Not necessarily the challenge to just behave, but the challenge to become. Yeah. There's the song, I am a child of God that originally Naomi Randall wrote to teach me all that I must know. And the story, I think we've all heard is that President Kimball suggested that be changed to teach me all that I must do. And then President Oaks gave that amazing talk and I want to say October of 2000 called the challenge to become that Hank's kind of talking about. And I would love them to, based on that talk, change it again to teach me all that I must be because that's what it sounds like. It's talking about here.

Focusing on becoming, not just doing a checklist, but what are we becoming in the process of all of this? Yeah, and Joel, he's not implying that blessing means the elimination of obstacles and pain, but that God's presence brings people through these events and trials, that he can become a very real part of this injunction. In verse 22, it would be not afraid. Be glad, verse 23, your children of Zion, rejoice in the Lord, your God, for he has given you the former reign moderately. So again, there's nothing in the book that's trying to say that we're going to be spared

trials in our lives, that ancient Israel was spared trials in their lives. Again, they were always on the crossroads between superpowers who just wanted their resources, who wanted everything that was available there. And these books are trying to get us to understand that, again, keeping a covenant doesn't mean a life-free of adversity. But there is hope, hope in the future, hope in a point where you're khosha-fat, where you do stand before your maker and you do so with a clean conscience that says,

you know, I've done everything I can, especially through adversity to stay close to thee. Because the verse 25 says, and I will restore you the years that the locust has eaten. So at that point, it's looking back at history and saying all of these points of suffering and all of these times of restoration. So it's talking about cycles of loss and gain and restoration and hope that part of what I think the book is saying is that for the scoffers, for the scorners, for the ones who have looked back and said, where has been your God through all of this?

Just say, I know exactly where he's been. He's been with me. Yeah, but look at all these bad things that have happened. It's okay, the promise of a covenant to life never promised that those would be alleviated or removed completely. But what it did promise was a life in God that gave me peace through all of that suffering and trials. Verse 27, in chapter 2 says, and you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else, and my people shall never be ashamed. And so again, it's kind of looking back and just sort of inviting us to think

that all of those times we look at scripture and say, where was God in the people's lives then? Why did he let this happen? This was never about God losing a love for any of his children. It was about helping them through and loving them more through those difficult times because there were a series of loss and gain and again restoration following those difficult times and whether that's the first temple period, the second temple period, exile. Again, this is just, it's listing a time where eventually what lies on the other side of the next tragedy is God. And Zion is being presented now as a place of refuge that says this will be the end of all of that pain and suffering,

and the earth will now recognize its sovereign ruler, and that will be the redeemer of the world. And so I think it's inviting us to put into perspective the history of the world and realize that eventually God will take over this, and that is the hope of Israel that all that was lost will eventually be made right. I love this idea. I want to store to you the years that you lost.

I thought of this from Elder Worthland. He said, the Lord compensates the faithful for every loss. That which is taken away from those who love the Lord will be added unto them in his own way, while it might not come at the time we desire. The faithful will know that every tear today will eventually be returned, a hundredfold, with tears of rejoicing and gratitude. That, to me, feels like verse 25, I will restore to you the years. Like you said, Aaron, I will help you through this. I won't take it away. I will take away the difficulties Aaron, I will help you through this. I won't take it away. I will take away the difficulties, but I will help you through them.

Chapter 2 did have a bit of a change of a tone to it from one side to the other. Yeah, at this stage, this is now about trying to figure out how do we abide this. This is chapter 2 11. The Lord shall utter his voice before his army, for his camp is very great, for he is strong that executed his word, for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible, and who can abide it. So, and that's what we're going to hear in Malachi, is, you know, how do we actually get through this? How do we abide the day?" And Malachi is an interesting one because that's a scripture that's listed in every book of scripture in the canon of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So we encounter Malachi in some variations of it in the Old Testament,

in the New Testament, in the Doctrine and Covenants, in the Prolog Price. So, Moroni was very clear in his conversations with Joseph, as well as the Lord's conversations with Joseph, that the reason that all of this is happening in the restoration and this renewal of the covenant was to prepare people for the coming of the Son of God. And so, this question now was vital to people in different eras. How do we abide the day of his coming? And again, whenever we meet our maker, are we prepared for it? And so that's when we have these genuine calls to turning back to God into weep and morning, not in this loathing self-deprecation, but for a sincere desire to connect and be connected

via covenant with the one that truly is all powerful, all loving, and all kind. Because it's just so easy to forget through our trials that God is in verse 16, gather the people, sanctify the congregation. It says, let the bridegroom go forth out of his chamber and the bride out of reclawed it, let the priests and the ministers weep, all of these are just trying to give us hope through adversity and realize that all of these things that sometimes we just view as abstract art is something that is going to be a reality

that every person who's ever lived on this planet will eventually confront face to face, and that is the bridegroom, the one who's done everything, the creator, and be able to enjoy that. And so all of these are invitations, not to fear. And the tone of this is really sort of alleviated by the time we get to verse 28. And this is what John was talking about, is now sort of the spiritual endowments that people are going to enjoy as it's introduced by verse 27, you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel and that, I the Lord, your God, and none else. And my people shall never be ashamed. So it's recognizing the sovereignty of God,

which has been something that's been so hard to do because he hasn't physically always been present upon the planet. And it's easy to sort of withdraw and say, well, then this isn't real that this all just seems so sensational. It's hard to believe in because if he does exist, why doesn't it exist in front of my face right now? But all of these are trying to invite us to say, well, you can have that relationship, even though his physical presence may not be here now, there will come a time where you experience his presence and everything that that comes with great or dreadful that that's going to be something that then becomes glorious as we're confronted with that. So am I right to say verse 11, who can abide it?

And the answer is 12 through almost the rest of the chapter, who can abide it? Those who rent their heart, not their garments, those who turn to the Lord their God, and I'll pour out my spirit on them. They don't need to be afraid. They can be glad. I'll restore the years if you'll turn to me with all your heart, with fasting, with mourning,

rent your heart and not your garments. Is that kind of the feel I should get from chapter two? It does feel like that's the answer. And again, interesting, where do you do all of this stuff at the temple? So there's something about this that's pulling us back in. So everything that we saw that felt like the temple was somehow losing grip and control of the offerings that have been stripped are now coming back into play saying don't be afraid Be glad and rejoice because this will be reversed and again We see that at different periods throughout the first temple period the second temple period and in modern temple periods

That this has always been the hope to try and get people back into this mindset of Restoration and that concept I will restore what years the locusts have taken from you. And that's where then this great prophecy comes in verse 28. That's right. That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and your daughter shall prophesy, your old men shall dream, dream to your young men shall see visions. And it goes on saying, I will show wonders in heaven and the earth.

The sun will be turned to darkness, the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord shall come. That's the prophecy we hear from Joseph Smith history. Yes, and that is one of the conversations that Moroni has with Joseph Smith. And it's interesting because this is all inclusive language. This is a drastic turn of events from the Old Testament prophecy, because who prophesies a prophet? Prophets. Yeah. So all of a sudden now we're in a period of spiritual endowment and of course this is interesting because we also see this in the book of Acts in this period of Pentecost. This is now expanding those who are going to be receiving these spiritual gifts. it's men, it's women, it's children, it's boys, it's girls, it's old men, it's all inclusive. And so this is breaking the conception,

this is Moses' call, this is wood that all would be prophets unto God. So it's not eliminating the need of a prophet, but it's giving the hope that people from top to bottom across everything. And again, servants, handmaids, like nobody is excluded from being able to enjoy these spiritual gifts. It's interesting because if you look at several ways that this was interpreted in the early days of the restoration and the restored church. In times and seasons from February 15th, 1842, they're speaking specifically about Joel, chapter 2, 28 to 32. Part of it is they're saying that the knowledge of God shall cover the earth

as the waters cover the sea, and all shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest. The spirit of God is the spirit of knowledge and revelation, and when so generally defused amongst the saints, it will enable them to know God alike. So one sense in the way that the early church was understanding this was again that this would be an all-inclusive type of spiritual endowment that people could participate in. And again, they were quoting in this in the times and seasons about people will not be ashamed. So again, all of these feelings, the pointing fingers, the great and spacious building that

sort of tries to get us to feel like this is all a big sham, this is all a big hoax. How could you ever know this stuff? And I think what Joel is saying is that everybody is going to eventually know this stuff. And ultimately now, these spiritual endowments are going to be a part of this. So what's also interesting is another way that this is being used in the early church and in the restoration, John Coral and a brief history of the Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1839, they're using it in a way to describe that there still is a need for prophets on behalf of the people. So just because we now can enjoy those personally, those

spiritual gifts, they're also saying, the Apostle Peter in explaining the prophecy of Joel said, and it shall come to pass in the last day, sayeth God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams and my servants. And on my handmaidens, I will pour out and in those days of my spirit and they shall prophesy. Instead, thereof of there being no prophets after Christ, it looked to me as if God meant that there should be many. For the assertions

are positive that your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and that this should be in the last days. Now, if the last days are past and gone, then we give up looking for prophets. But if not, then the promise stands good for more prophets. So it's interesting that they're seeing this as all-inclusive and expansive, but also that this doesn't mean that it's a free for all, that there still needs to be a prophet or a prophet in place, and interestingly, General Conference exhibits that better than anything. Ultimately, that there are prophets involved in all of this that are leading the way in this endeavor as a larger body of the church. It has some similar parallels with what happened on the day of Pentecost. But again, the feel is, is now that blessings are available to individuals,

but it doesn't exclude the need for prophets in general. Well put, I marked the word that I had never marked before in verse 28. I mean, let me emphasize it. I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. And that's what you're emphasizing here. And I think that President Nelson has asked us all to learn how do we hear him that phrase that from the first vision, we all need to learn to hear him and to be guided, to be connected to God that way.

But like you said, there still is a prophet, there's a president of the church, there's still our keys to administer the kingdom of God on earth. But all of us can learn to hear him. Really like that word all in there. And like you said, men, women, children, all of us. Yeah, and I think the hope of all of this is that we are thinking about a time when this all comes to pass. And verse 32 says, it shall come to pass that whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance as the Lord has said and in the remnant to whom the Lord shall call. And it's interesting to think, you know, as you were describing that John, that this doesn't necessarily just have to include members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I remember a talk that Elder Eiring gave, Elder Eiring, that guy, he's always giving these insights that nobody ever thinks of. His prophetic leadership has just been fantastic. He was giving a talk and he's just saying he was in a land in South America, I think, is where Central America, I can't remember where he was at. But ultimately, he just said that they were working with government leaders. The church was trying to help some of the physical needs of people in that region. And he just said, I had this overwhelming, powerful feeling

that God doesn't always work through nations, but he works through good people in those nations. He just said at that moment, I just felt that the Lord has raised up lots of good people who are trying to bless the lives of the people of their countries. And ultimately, he is blessing and revealing in ways that maybe we don't always comprehend, just to benefit humankind. Because sometimes we just get so caught up that the only way that we measure success

is by numbers in a certain genre, not recognizing that ultimately, sometimes the biggest success is just being able to help somebody through discouragement, through providing for physical needs, whatever it may be. I mean, this is about God's family and each one matters to him. And I think some of these gifts are supposed to be employed to bless not only individual lives, but the people over whom they have stewardship. not only individual lives, but the people over whom they have stewardship. Fantastic. All flesh. Sometimes we, as Latter-day Saints think, we have a corner on some of these

things where the Lord would say, no, no, no, it's much bigger than that. So Aaron, chapter two finishes very hopeful. Does that same feeling go into chapter three? No, not really. Do we switch? Okay. So I mean, we get to chapter three and basically for behold, in those days, so again, it seems like something future, whatever that means, it's nebulous. And in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and will bring them down into the Valley of Jehoshaphat. So at this stage, we're encountering judgment. We don't know where the Valley of Jehoshaphat is. Jehoshaphat was a king.

He did have some battles against mollbites and ammonites and some people think that maybe it's there, some people think it's the Kidron Valley. What it's saying is that there's going to come a point where judgment is a very real thing. At this point of the Valley of Jehoshaphat, I will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations. We're now getting this larger, pochaliptic type feel where there are more things that play than we may sometimes realize. And yet at the same time, I don't even know how to begin to comprehend what this all looks like. Our family lived in

Jerusalem for a few different years, and I've tried to figure out what all of these prophecies about the amount of olives and mountains cleaving in twain, what all of this stuff looks like, and it's far beyond my comprehension of how this unfolds. I believe in it. I know that these things will happen. I just don't comprehend them fully because we're just getting into something now that is beyond my experience in life. Spiritually, I'm trying to understand the message when it comes to some of these scenarios

that are presented in chapter three. I just, my mind can't grasp what this all looks like. Though I believe in them. How is he gonna gather all nations to a single valley and plead for Israel? Are these some of the nations that have destroyed them? Cause he says, they, some of these nations have cast lots for my people. So is this going back to Assyria and Babylon?

Yeah, verse four starts to name a few of them. So Tyre and Zyden, so Phoenicians, and they are starting to list some of the traditional adversaries of that region. Verse six talks about Degreesion. So people try and identify what time period is then, because if we're now talking about Greece, this is taking us into later developments, at least as far as this region. And so it is now starting to list some of these traditional adversaries through time. And verse nine just brings us back to, you know, you have to proclaim this among the Gentiles, prepare a war, wake up the mighty men and let the men of war draw near and let them come up. Be your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears

and let the weak say, I am strong. This is a reversal of Isaiah and Micah. And so you ask yourself, what is the rhetorical purpose of all of this? Like what is Joel trying to tell us through all of this? And it seems to be that this is not going to be peaceful. And everything that Isaiah and Micah is trying to do is give us hope that war comes to an end. And now it's like, you know what? You tell everybody they're going to battle because Yehoshha fought. Like there will be judgment. So that is kind of what's happening here. And these wow, plough shares are now used for weapons of war. Again, assuming that the reader is familiar with the hopeful prophecies of Isaiah and Micah, this becomes a powerful tool now to say, you know what, you're going to come to battle against God, but it's going to be futile. And I think that

this is more of just like sometimes we get caught up in saying these are just physical battles, but perhaps these are also trying to emphasize a spiritual component of all of this that just helps us in verse 12 says, be awakened. So he then let the he then go. And Hebrew, it just means let all the nations, let everybody be awakened and come to the Valley of Jehoshaphat for there will I sit to judge all the heathen so again all the nations round about. I think this concept of not being ashamed is just trying to put forth a scenario that

just says you don't have to be embarrassed for anything about the way that history is unfolded or anytime that you think God has been absent from your lives or the lives of people. I think that all these are trying to say that he has been present and Hosea again was very powerful in trying to depict that. And this is saying eventually God will come and make all things right that the world put wrong. Just this call to say, let's make sure that we're individually investing our lives into covenants that we make and into a paradigm that just says, I still believe whatever the world may say, whatever jirings, whatever scoffing, whatever lack of belief, and it's not that everybody treats believers that way, but it's just pulled on. It is there, yeah.

And these things will eventually, everything will be reconciled for good. Eventually, everything will be reconciled for good. I like that. Look at verse 16, the Lord shall roar out of Zion. Here's that. I underline that, because you talked about roaring the other day. Yeah, the Lord shall roar out of Zion. He's not a lamb in this in this scenario. So shall you know, I am the Lord your God,

twilling in Zion. I'm just so intrigued as I've been to the Holy Land that I hadn't really noticed before how much the Scriptures talk about not just the people but a place. They talk about Jerusalem a lot. And you having lived there, I bet you have some insight on that too. All of this leads us up to, first 14, where it says, for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. And of course, we get all this. The sun and the moon shall be darkened and the stars shall withdraw. They're shining. We start to try and comprehend and sometimes I subscribe to his eclipses, lunar eclipses, and solar eclipses.

And we try and find a mechanism to explain that, how that works, and how that's possible. In ancient societies, they were interested in astronomy. But when they looked at these, basically, in Mesopotamian literature, eclipses were a pretty bad omen, and they were often a sign of judgment. They're looking more of like, oh, what is coming? What is about to take place here? And they see it as a bad omen, at least in Mesopotamian literature. So when all of this stuff is happening, it's trying to say, you know, judgment is on the horizon.

And these celestial type of events is now leading into what John was talking about. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion. So all of this stuff that grasps our attention in the heavens is now going to be perceived now as the Lord roaring out of Zion. We see this, and Joseph Smith Matthew, and coming in glory. Nobody's going to miss this. This is not going to be something. And Matthew talks about this. You can go look in the nooks and the crannies, but when this happens, everyone is going to see this, and nobody's going to miss this one. And so this roaring out of Zion, and this voice out of Jerusalem, but the Lord will be the hope of His people. And I think that's really what the message is

through all of this is not to be bogged down with all of these signs of the times, the things that can be so disconcerting to the point where they weigh us down to inaction, but to just say, okay, I got it. But here's my hope. And this is my hope. And this is the strength of the children of Israel. So we often talk about the children of Israel. This isn't about a political entity.

This isn't about modern politics. It's talking about covenant relationships that are available to anyone and everyone who will come and enjoy those. And because ultimately verse 17 is now saying, I am the Lord your God, dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain. So John, there's your comment about holiness. So Kadoosh, it does represent something of the intersanctuary of the temple or a description of the temple, but it also describes holiness codes about people who are preparing

to go into those sacred spaces. So this is about development. It's about personal well-being. But the promise in verse 17 is that eventually my mountain will be holy and I will dwell with Zion there and there are not going to be any more strangers coming through here. The stranger concept, all of these armies, like this is over and God is going to put it into this once and for all. That's what's leading up to how the book ends, and she'll come to pass in that day. So we keep hearing this future time. In that day, the mountains shall drop down a new wine

and the hills shall flow with milk and the rivers of judo flow with water. So again, we're just sort of seeing an an all of this, the fountain show come out of the house of the Lord. So these are actually really interesting because these are iconographically depicted in ancient temple scenes where they you can see a temples and you can see deities and gods and water and rivers are flowing from the gods and from the temples, because it symbolizes life. It symbolizes the ability to survive, the ability to live, fertility. And all of this now is that we just see the house of the Lord as a place now of survival,

of sustenance, of giving, of living waters. And all of this is the hope. And again, I'm not sure we're supposed to just be focusing on one particular place at one particular time, and these could be paradigmatic that way of just these fountains of life that will flow from God when he comes again, and that Judah will dwell forever hope of the book amongst all of these scenes and the history of the world that have been so tragic all is finally put right in the end. So judgment is coming, but you don't need to be afraid if you're on the Lord's side of things. Sounds like don't you sing a song about that? Yeah. Aaron, this has been really good. I see both Hosea and Joel have these elements of hope in them. When we first started our interview, it was hope against the background of hopelessness. So you feel like both of these books fit into that description?

I do. Joseph Fielding Smith said, we find in Joel's, F and I, as Zachariah, they're all proclaiming that in this last day, the day when the sun shall be darkened and the moon turned to blood, and the stars fall from heaven, that the nations of the earth would gather against Jerusalem. And again, whatever that looks like, I'm not certain how this all looks, but he says all of them speak of it, and when that time comes, the Lord is going to come out of his hiding place. And again, I think that that is the hope of all of this. And I do think that these books are trying to help us understand that we just don't give up with all of the scenarios in our lives that may lead us down paths of doubt, that may lead us down paths of wondering whether or not God is concerning whether he cares, whether he's in a position to help. I think both of these books, particularly Joel in a very astounding way, is trying to say there is nobody who can confront the Lord and become victorious if they're trying to

battle against him. I think by presenting this coming day, I've not only judgment, but of the greatness of coming, of the one who loves you, the one who cares about you, the one who has never, ever abandoned you, even if you temporarily abandoned him. That is, I think, the big hope of all of this. And I think it encapsulates something that Spencer W. Campbell said, and it is, let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers as if our eternal life depended upon it because it does. I think that that is something that the book continues to encourage us to do is to keep trusting and the ones that seem prophecies, the ones that receive revelations, knowing that each of us can receive that personal inspiration in our own life, but not to give

up the trust and hope of the profit and thus seers and the revelators who are trying to lead us down and that's exactly what Jose and Joel are doing in their days is trying to lead people back to God. Aaron, this has been a fantastic day. I mean, I have taken different highlighters throughout, I've got yellow, blue, and red, because I was marking Pierce Judgment,

here's Hope, here's the call to action. Here's what you do. I just feel like I understand Jose and Joel in ways, well, obviously in ways I've never had before because I didn't understand him before. So Aaron, I think our listeners would be interested in your journey as both a believing letter of a Saint and a Bible scholar.

How'd that come about? And what's that journey been like for you? I think that where I began to notice something really different in my life was I was a missionary in Poland. I lived in the old Warsaw ghetto. I would see things that evoked in me questions that I just simply didn't know the answer to about Judaism, about the Old Testament, about what the people that I was learning to love there in that country, what they had experienced in the various persecutions that they had gone through. So I just sort of determined

that when I got home, I would start taking Old Testament classes, I would start taking Hebrew classes, I'd learn about Judaism, Islam, and it just sort of started snowballing just because I wanted to know more because I just felt like I didn't have enough answers to satisfy me. I believed in the gospel, I believed in the church, but there was just something that says, how do I understand it better? How do I understand it more? It's just one thing led to another. I just realized that I love studying languages. I love studying the religious history of different peoples

and different groups of people. And so I started learning a little Arabic and started learning about Islam. Even to this day, I work in Jordan in most summers and I just love the Jordanians. I love Islam. It's just I love to watch them pray. Our workers will sometimes stop in the middle of the day

and just start praying there on our site. And they're just something that evoked a feeling that there's so many good people that love God. And just what God has done for them in their lives. And of course, all of the good people around the world that are just living lives and doing things that make such a big difference to so many people, whether they believe in God or not.

But there was just something that drove me to say I want to know more. And so I started taking all these classes at school, ended up taking a bunch of ancient Near Eastern studies classes, and tried to just say, you know what, let's keep moving forward in all of this. Went to grad school and studied Egyptology, studied the Hebrew Bible, some archaeology, and just ultimately, it just kept leading me forward. And of course, as you go along and you study all this stuff, it's really easy to get caught up in the things that we don't know. Because there are lots of things that we don't know.

And one of my favorite titles of a book is working with no data. And it just sort of describes my life. And an excavation, you're digging something up that nobody has seen in 2800 years and trying to interpret it. You're trying to reconstruct dead languages that don't preserve what all of the nuances of that language were. It's just always trying to find answers where there are none. And something that always drove me through my graduate studies was that there was always a source that I could turn back to,

someplace that I could get the answers that were most important to me. No matter how much I loved my studies, and I did. Most of my days started with, I just don't have enough hours in the day to accomplish everything that I need to just help me learn what I can in a way that will be meaningful and allow me to accomplish as much as I can to do something good today. That was kind of my journey of faith as I never really felt tempted to disbelieve amongst

anything that may have been presented to me that says, oh, this is a contradiction in the Bible. It's just there was always an anchor in my life. I just tried to do my best. I didn't know it at the time, but let God prevail was something that I was trying to do without even knowing it. You know, that concept now that just says, you know, don't ever give up on that. Don't let go of that because we're always going to be presented with ideas that seem contradictory. We also always going to be presented with ideas

that seem like they may be a theological knot that we just can't simply untie. But ultimately, I trust in an all-knowing omniscient God who does know the answers to all these things. And I'm not going to let Trump what I don't know, Trump what I do know about him and about his love and about his compassion. So for me, that's always been the anchor in my life that through my studies, they've only accentuated. And in fact, it's given me a bit of a humility. Most people wouldn't describe me as humble, but at least my humility and my approach to God, I realized that you know, so much more than I do.

And that's something that has increased my appreciation and love for God. And so that's been something that I've just always tried to make. My guiding principle in life is to realize that though I don't have the answers, I know he does. And those will come in time whenever he chooses to reveal those. John, by the way, how did we get this opportunity to sit at the feet of these scholars? Yeah. Your journey and your testimony

of how much goodness there is out there in the world. I know Hank, you've seen that in the Holy Land and the kindness of people of Muslims, it's amazing. Just thank you for sharing all of this with us today and that perspective. It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Been beautiful. We want to thank Dr. Aaron Shade for being with us. We want to thank

all of you for listening. We also want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sonson and our sponsors David and Verla Sonson. We hope all of you will join us next week because we'll be back with another episode of Follow Him. We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoden, Crystal Roberts, and Al Kuhadra. Thank you to our amazing production team. you