Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Introductory Pages of the Book of Mormon Part 1 • Dr. Casey Griffiths & Dr. Scott Woodward • Jan 1 - Jan 7

Episode Date: December 27, 2023

How often do we hold a miracle in our hands? Dr. Casey Griffiths and Dr. Scott Woodward open doors to understanding one of the most influential texts in history. They explore the Introduction of the Book of Mormon, the witnesses to the golden plates, and the promises made through studying this miraculous book.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/book-of-mormon-episodes-1-13/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056YouTube: https://youtu.be/zeajSoxrFW8Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part 1–Dr. Casey Griffiths and Dr. Scott Woodward03:33 Introduction of guests04:12 Why study Church History07:22 Church History Matters Podcast09:02 Introductory pages of the Book of Mormon12:10 Miracles have not ceased17:09 Jesus Christ is the focus of the Book of Mormon19:13 Three-fold purpose of the Book of Mormon20:54 Purpose as speaker system25:05 The covenant consciousness 27:39 Jesus Christ is for the entire world31:23 The purpose and function of the Book of Mormon33:38 Moroni and the errors of men36:41 Dr. Woodward shares an experience reviewing online40:36 Testimonies of the eleven men and one woman45:23 Never deny their testimonies48:20 Martin Harris50:16 David Whitmer58:38 President Dallin Harris Oaks on Martin Harris1:01:12 End of Part I–Dr. Casey Griffiths and Dr. Scott WoodwardThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello everyone, welcome to a new episode of Follow Him for a brand new year. We are studying the Book of Mormon. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host and I'm here with my Book of Mormon Loving Co-host, John by the way, John. You have been looking forward to this. I know for three years. I really have and I'll take that adjective. Most of them I can't live up to, but Book of forward to this. I know for three years. I really have.

And I'll take that adjective. Most of them I can't live up to, but Book of Mormon loving. I'll take that one. Right. John, tell me you've got a classroom of 100 students. They're ready to study the Book of Mormon. How do you start? One of the things I like to do is kind of tease them a little bit and tell them we have

a guest speaker. And then I announce the name Lucy Max Smith. Can you imagine if she or here she might say, do you know what it cost my family to bring you this book? And that's a sobering moment, but it's a wonderful moment to think, what a treasure we have right in front of us and what a sacrifice came to bring it to us. That's one of the ways I like to start. Absolutely. I don't know if we realize we are holding a real miracle in our hands. I usually start my classes, John, with this quote from President Nelson. Listen to all he promises here.

He says, when I think of the Book of Mormon, I think of the word power. The truths of the Book of Mormon have the power to heal, comfort, restore, sucker, strengthen, console, and cheer our souls. Is there anybody listening who doesn't want that? Heal, comfort, restore, sucker, strengthen, console, and cheer our souls. And then he makes three promises, John. He says, I promise that as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon every day, you will make better decisions every day.

I promise that as you daily immerse yourself in the Book of Mormon, you can be immunized against the evils of the day, and then one more promise. I promise that as you ponder what you study, the windows of heaven will open, you will receive answers to your own questions and directions for your own life. John, those three promises make me think, I want to study the Book of Mormon.

I want to study every day. I don't want to miss a day. You know what that reminds me of? I had a class from Gerald Lund who afterwards became elder Gerald Lund in my master's program and he talked about our usual approaches to scripture study. He says we use guilt. You know, pack your bags. We're going on a guilt trip.

He said, we use shame, we use bribery. If you read, you get a snickers in class. But he said that the approach the scriptures themselves use, he called it promises. And the cool thing about the promises is they're not someday promises. They're right now promises, which President Nelson just said, better decisions every day. They're right now promises. So I'm glad you introduced that idea. The promises are right now.

John, I love it. I love the idea of Lucy Max Smith kind of reaching through the centuries, telling us, read this book, don't take it for granted. We love it so much. John, what a great connection. We are going to be joined by dozens of scholars this year who are going to teach us about the Book of Mormon.

And John, I know that that's one of your favorite parts of this is being taught, listening. I wanted to start big. I wanted to start with two scholars who are not only incredible minds, but they're just good people to their core. They're both friends of ours, good friends of ours. Can you tell us, John, who is here

to start our Book of Mormon year with us? We're very excited to have Casey Griffiths and Scott Woodward with us, and our listeners will recognize their faces, they co-host a podcast together, a church history matters podcast. They probably recognize it from doctrine and covenants and that's okay because the Book of Mormon

is a part of church history. It comes forth during this part and these guys are experts in that. If you've ever been to scripturecentral.org, there's a part of that church history matters. I'm so excited to have them teach us about the coming fourth of the Book of Mormon. Welcome, Casey. Welcome, Scott. Thank you so much. It's great to be back.

Yeah, good to be here again. In case our listeners don't know, all four of us are pretty good friends. We might be laughing a lot between these two. The years, months, hours of research into the history of the church is difficult to grasp. I'm not saying that they're old, but they have done a lot of work. Scott, Casey, tell us what you love about the history of this church. Why do you study it so much? For me, I was probably about 17 years old. I started listening to those Truman G. Madsen tapes. I don't know if you remember those. The Joe's was Smith the prophet. Truman got me hooked and I haven't stopped

ever since just continuing to dive deeper and deeper and deeper in a church history and it's been a joy, it's been a testimony strengthening experience, testimony morphing experience. My testimony doesn't look the same as it did when I was 17, but it's rich and beautiful. I find a lot of strength in it. I find strength in both the human elements of church history and in the divine. I see church history as a beautiful mix of both. It gives me hope that weak humans like us have a shot when you see kind of people in church history stumbling and making mistakes, but seeing how the Lord works with them and is kind and good. And it adds a layer of authenticity and reality to like the human experience with God, like interacting with humans. Like what does that actually look like? Sometimes scripture is a little far away, like

distant in the past, the ancient past, they talk differently, they have different cultures and stuff, but church history, I mean, this is really recent. These people speak English, they're in America. Yeah. What does it look like for God to talk with people in Ohio? Like that's a state in my country. To study church history and the doctrine and covenants. It's really rich. It's really vibrant. I love it.

Jason, what would you say? I was trying to think of when I got bitten by the bug and it was probably on my mission when I read church history and the fullness of times, which is still one of the best histories out there. And it's an institute manual. You got it on gospel library. I had to found church history to be really fun and delightful.

It was stuff like Brigham Young and Hebris C. Kimball got chased by a bear and stuff like that that just made me chuckle. And I found like Scott said this deep humanity in it. The thing I love about church history is it's a well that just never runs dry. There's so much to study and so many different angles and I learned something new on a daily basis that just surprises and the lights meet and the fact that they didn't have to condense it down to a travel size set of gold plates. There's journals and reminiscences and histories from all over the world,

and from women and from men and from different groups and countries and nations made it such a vibrant thing to study. And add that to the fact that it's something that is directly relevant in every period of life. You can always find a story from church history that illustrates a point that you want to make or that gives you courage or hope or shows you how a person of faith can overcome adversity, that it's really been a deep well that I go back to again and again to kind of refresh myself and to just frankly have courage to face the next day and to do the hard things that I have to do. Let's just briefly make sure that we give a major shout out to their podcast.

It's called Church History Matters. The reason I invited both of you on today is because I listened to that series, I think it was five episodes of the coming fourth of the Book of Mormon. And I knew we wouldn't be able to cover it all today. So I wanted to bring you on, give us some elements of that. And then if our listeners want even more, they can go and find that series. I think it was one of the first you did.

If you want to do six episodes on Book of Mormon translation, it's their first vision, plural marriage, race in the priest, and all the spicy stuff that sometimes trips people up. Scott and I have explored. And I want to credit Scott for being really fearless when it comes to approaching challenging issues in church history He's just really good at that and I've learned a lot from him or reckless. I'm not sure which one of this He's like a bull in a china shop that's how I described me

Well, we are not afraid to lift our friends Jared Halverson Tyler and Taylor grace and David and David. And so many others that I probably can't pick up right now, we're all on the same team. We want to bless each other and bless the kingdom. Anybody who blesses me, blesses my family, blesses my loved ones, lifts all of us. You find a flavor that you like a different faith flavor. If you find a flavor you like, that's awesome. We are all on the same team, a rising tide lifts all boats. Let's jump in. very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very the opening paragraph. Before you even get to First Nephi chapter one, you will notice that the Book of Mormon is no ordinary book.

Its introductory pages describe a backstory unlike any other, including visits from angels, an ancient record buried for centuries and hillside and a young man translating the record by the power of God. The Book of Mormon is not just a history of ancient civilizations, it seeks to convince all that Jesus is the Christ, and God Himself directed how it was written, preserved, and made available to us.

This year, as you read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, apply its teachings, invite the Savior's power into your life, and you may feel moved to say as the three witnesses did in their testimony, it is marvelous in my eyes. What a great way to start. Casey Scott, as you think of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, what do you think our listeners need to know? What would you say, hey, this is crucial? Before you jump into the text, how are these

introductory pages arranged in order to start us off on the right foot? I'd start out by saying this, the miracle of the restoration is in these pages. To an early member of the church, they would not have introduced a person to the church by talking about the first vision. First vision actually comes into its own in the 20th century because it's such a great story about how to search, approach God and get an answer. But to the early members of the church, the proof that God was among us and that God was moving again was the book of Mormon. They would talk about how it came forward, how it was the work of an angel, and then they would hand you the book as absolute proof that God is bringing back and restoring all things in one. These opening pages are crucial to understanding not just the Book of Mormon and its story where it came from, but also what brought everybody together in the early restoration. Because it's fair to say,

Joseph Smith kept the first vision to himself until a little bit later in his prophetic ministry, the Book of Mormon on the other hand, was proof positive that he could put into your hands to show that God had spoken to him and that he was more than just an interesting charismatic preacher that he was a prophet of God. It's evidence to the early saints that God is working among people again,

and that his voice is being heard, and there are prophets on earth once more. Beautiful. Amen. This was the missionary message of the first decade of the church. It was the Book of Mormon. You want to know that heavens are open. Here's the Book of Mormon. You want to know that Joseph's mess of true prophet. Here's the Book of Mormon. You want to have Joseph's mess of true prophet? Here's the book of Mormon. You want to know that the God is speaking again in our day. Here's a copy of the book. You can hold it in your hands. In case you didn't have talked about this in the past that it may have come across to Joseph maybe a little imodest to talk about his first vision. Since he was the only one there, it's kind of taking his word for it.

It's a maybe more of a personal experience to begin with for him, rather than something he maybe thought was gonna be the foundational narrative of the church. In his mind, the thing that people could really grasp onto was the Book of Mormon. This is the evidence of the restoration. This is the evidence that miracles have not ceased. Awesome.

My favorite paragraph in preach my gospel first edition says, throughout history, God has had a pattern of reaching out to people through a prophet, and people have had a pattern of rejecting the prophets and rejecting him. And then it says, consider our evidence that God has reached out again to a prophet and spoken to his children.

The prophet's name is Joseph Smith and the evidence of this is found in a book, The Book of Mormon. I've loved the way they put that. God has reached out again and this time we've got evidence and here it is, the Book of Mormon. That's one of my favorite paragraphs in there that summarized what you guys just said to. Love that. Casey Scott, as I open the Book of Mormon, Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ. I go to my next page, first English edition, published in Palmyra, New York, USA, in 1830. Then I go to the next page, the Book of Mormon,

an account written by the hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi. That is called the title page of the Book of Mormon. Where did this come from? I mean, this is the first thing I run into. Do I need to know anything about this? Or should I just skip it and get to first Nephi? First thing you should know is that this is the actual text of the Book of Mormon.

This isn't supplementary material written by someone later on to explain it. I've got here a quote from the history of the Church. Joseph Smith wrote this about the title page of the Book of Mormon. He said, I wish to mention here that the title page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation, taken from the very last leaf on the left hand side of the collection of book of plates, which contained the record which has been translated the language of the whole running the same as all Hebrew writing in general. And that said title page is not by any means a modern composition, either of mine or

of any other man who has lived or does live in this generation. Sometimes when people say I start at the Book of Mormon, they usually are saying I read 1st Nephi 1. But the text of the Book of Mormon actually starts on the title page. This is written by Moroni and is intended to be the introduction to the Book of Mormon. So don't skip over this by any mean. It's not supplementing material, it's not modern, it's literally taken from the plates and is designed by Moroni to sort of give you the crucial information that's in the Book of Mormon,

why it matters, and the scope that the Book of Mormon is supposed to reach. This is where the text begins, functionally, this title page right here. This is so good, and yeah, I love the idea of unto all nations. There are parts of my testimony where things that just make sense to me, and one of those that make sense is manifesting Himself unto all nations. And I love that when Jesus leaves this group of the children of Lehigh, He says, I'm going to appear to other groups. He doesn't say, in one place or many places, I believe it's many places. Thank you for emphasizing that part, manifesting

himself unto all nations. We even know that one day we will be getting other books from other places that he visited. And I tell my students, you're going to have a lot of religion classes someday because we're going to have other books we have to study. He tells them they're going to go, so I love that you emphasize that, manifesting himself unto all nations. I heard that in the Philippines sometimes, why America? Well, the restoration took place in a place where religious freedom was guaranteed, at least, supposed to be. But now this book is a message for the world. Amen. And I mean, that's so important for us. I've heard some bright,

And I mean, that's so important for us. I've heard some bright secular thinkers criticize the Bible by saying, hey, this is a message to a tiny group of people in an obscure part of the world during the Iron Age of human history. But how does this have relevance to me? The Book of Mormon immediately raises the stakes by saying, no, this message is for everybody, everywhere for all time.

If you look at the Book of Mormon as a sequel to the Bible, it's like the Empire strikes back that broadens the story, deepens the story, and then it sets up all these crazy possibilities about what's going to happen down the road. And it's using an American story to basically illustrate the fact that there isn't a nation on earth that doesn't have a Christ story that takes place in it. And there isn't a people on earth that Christ isn't concerned about, that Israel was held up as the example of how God deals with a nation, how He makes covenants, how He blesses and

exalts them. But it's a story that can take place among any nation, among any group of people, and it also lays flat out there who the main character is, which is Jesus Christ. So those three things that Scott mentioned, like I said, knowing what God has done in the past, what he's promised to do for you in the future, and who you need to connect with right now, to know how you can be happy,

how you can be fulfilled, and how you can gain exaltation. Or where the book Mormons out, it's a pretty great introduction that sets the stakes and then opens the door to say, we're going to take this little story which you assumed was about one people and make it a story about all people. That's a really, really valuable contribution, not just to Latter-day Saints, but to Christianity in general to say that this was never a local tribal faith, a local tribal God. This was the God of the whole Earth, starting with this group of people, but now expanding the story to every group of people. There's a plot twist in the Book of Mormon about that in 2nd E5 33 verse 1 and in 3rd E5 33 verse 1. I don't know how it correlates so perfectly,

but in both of those verses it says that anyone who receives Jesus Christ through baptism actually becomes part of the house of Israel. You become part of the story of those who are going to rule and reign with Jesus the Messiah, with the King. It is about the house of Israel through and through, and at the same time, it's about the whole world. How can those both be true at the same time? Well, because the whole world is being invited to come into Christ and become part of His people, which is called the house of Israel. Super cool how the Book of Mormon works. It's a royal family that anybody can join. That's a is called the House of Israel. Super cool how the Book of Mormon works. It's a royal family that anybody can join. That's a beautiful concept in and of itself.

Yes. Through baptism be born again into Christ's family, which is called Israel. And take upon yourself the name of Jesus as one of his people. It's marvelous. It's a simple but powerful message. I love that. It's not first if I won. Let's start with the title page. That's where the text begins. I had thought of it that way, but I think that's the way maybe it was intended. Yeah, and we get right there on the title page. We get the three audiences that this book is written to. We got the Remnant of the House of Israel. Those are the descendants of Lehi. We've got Jews, and we've got Gentile. So let's talk about those for a second. The Remnant of the House of Israel.

The Book of Mormon is going to talk about this a lot. These are the descendants of Lehi. And you've got Jews, slash house of Israel. Those are interchangeable terms. These are the people that come from Jerusalem, or these are God's covenant people. Then you've got the Gentiles. Gentiles just means those of nations who are neither Jew nor Remnant. In effect, then this book is written to everybody, but we don't want to conflate it too strong that way because it's going to have different messages to different groups. There's messages to the Remnant, there's messages to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Keep all of those in mind as you read it makes this actually a much more meaningful read. Notice this, what Moroni says, he says,

This book is, quote, to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel, Lehigh Seed. What great things the Lord had done for their fathers, that's purpose number one for the Book of Mormon. Number two, and that they, still talking about the Remnant, may know the covenants of the Lord that they are not cast off forever. That's second purpose of the Book of Mormon. And number three, and also to the convincing of the Jew and the Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God, manifesting Himself on Dalinations.

Those are three different, but related purposes. And I think what often happens is we mush them all together into one purpose Which is to convince everyone that Jesus is the Christ. At least I've done that a lot in my own study But let me try a little thought experiment here for us I want you to imagine that the three purposes of the Book of Mormon are like a three-piece Sound system. Just go with me on this, all right? There's a right speaker, there's a left speaker, and then there's the sound bar in the middle. Can you help me to do this?

A three-piece sound system is meant to put out polyphonic sound. When you're watching your favorite epic movie, there are like subtle differences of sound that come from each speaker. Maybe there's dialogue through the left speaker, and when a plane flies off to the right, you kind of hear it in the right speaker,

and when an army attacks in the front, you can fill it, come on, at you. When the three speakers are kept in balance, the listening experience can be immersive and incredible. The same is true for the three purposes of the Book of Mormon. If kept in balance with each other, the experience can be richer and more immersive than ever. But I fear that sometimes our three Book of Mormon speakers are not in balance, and so we can't fully appreciate the richness of the book.

I'm talking from my personal experience here. So let's say, for example, the left speaker is this first message of hope to the modern remnant of Israel, okay? Lehigh's descendants, to show them how good the Lord has been to their ancestors. Now, I've read the Book of Mormon multiple times without even turning that speaker on.

I think this speaker could be turned up a little bit, maybe a lot. And let's say that the right speaker is this second message of hope to the modern remnant of Israel to help them know the covenants of the Lord with the whole house of Israel so that they can recognize that they're not cast off forever.

Well, I confess, I've read the Book of Mormon multiple times without even knowing that was a speaker. That wasn't just turned off from me. It was still in the original box, awkwardly stacked over in the corner with me, not even knowing what to do with it. For most of us, this one probably needs to be unpacked and then turned up quite considerably. And then let's say that the middle sound bar speaker is that third purpose of

convincing Jews and Gentiles that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God. Well, I've read the book of Mormon with this one cranked up way too loud most of my life. Might sound odd to say, but of course, this is a good speaker, but like any good speaker, when we blast it too loudly, it can actually distort the learning experience and drown out the other two speakers. So we can't even hear them at all. So maybe this one, we need to actually turn down a little bit, at least enough to hear it in harmony with the other two speakers.

And in fact, I'll just say my experience that when we listen polyphonically, multiple sounds coming from multiple speakers here, I hope this analogy is working for you. If we can listen polyphonically with all three purposes working together, it actually enhances the sweetness of that middle soundbar. I would go so far as to say it's virtually impossible to fully appreciate what it means that Jesus is the Christ outside of understanding God's covenants with the house of Israel. You can't do it. When you turn up those other two speakers, then that middle sound bar is more resonant and beautiful than ever.

Wow. That is fantastic. Here's a book I've read over and over, and yet you're showing me something I've never seen before. I think you're right on here. John, I can tell you're excited about this. before. I think you're right on here. John, I can tell you're excited about this. Yeah, I've always felt like when Nephi's sharing the Isaiah chapters, he's talking to his people and saying, we've got a different area code now, but this is us. And the Jew and Gentiles already have this in another place in the Bible, but he's telling, we're house of Israel, and we've got to live up to the covenants of promises to us. And that's that one speaker that helps me to say, we have why didn't he if I throw this in here? Well, this is for us to remember that our area code has changed,

but our covenants have not. And remember what Isaiah said, I like the polyphonic thing. Polyphonic reading of the book of Mormon. And maybe there's times in the Book of Mormon where those other two speakers are supposed to be coming at me. And yet I'm hearing nothing. Oh, I'm thinking, well, this isn't very good because it's that first speaker is not as loud as it's been in other chapters. So let me just skip. Let me just skip ahead until I hear that first speaker again. We are saying, well, maybe it's because those other two speakers aren't all on. Yeah, when they work together, harmoniously, the Book of Mormon is never

more beautiful. It's going to take on a richness. If we can especially turn up the covenant consciousness of the writers of the Book of Mormon, they assume so much. They assume that we know the covenant backstory of the Old Testament. They just assume like we got it because that's where they're coming from. Like, who doesn't know this story? But if we don't know, for instance, the covenant with Abraham, and we don't know the covenant with the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai, that's covered in the book of Exodus and then repeated in Deuteronomy, we're going to be a little bit lost here.

They've assumed that you know that. And if you also don't know about the covenant that God made with King David, then it's going to be harder to understand this whole proposition that Jesus is the Christ. What does that mean? The Christ, the Messiah, the anointed one. In what context does that make sense outside of the covenant God made with David about his descendant who would both gather together and then rule over Israel as this powerful descendent of King David. He would benevolently rule the world forever. The writers of the Book of Mormon assume

that you know the Abrahamic covenant. They assume you know the national covenant with Israel, and they assume you know the Davidic covenant. The promised is the God made to King David. And if you don't have those three, that's the narrative backbone of the Hebrew Bible. And it constitutes the essential backstory for key portions and prophecies in the book of Mormon. For instance, verse Nephi 11 through 14, Nephi's vision, holy cow. And then Nephi's recapitulation of that vision in 2 Nephi 25 through 30. And then Jacob chapter 5, if you don't know this, Jacob 5 is going to be harder to really sink a teeth into. And as John mentioned, he has A. chapter, second, he 5, 12 through 24.

Nephi is quoting those because he sees that Isaiah has seen the same vision he saw and after Isaiah lays it out, then Nephi says, now I want to say a few things concerning this. I want to prophesy. And then he recapitulates his vision from 1st Nephi 11 through 14th Nephi sought. He said, my father sought Jacob sought. And now I'm reading Isaiah and I'm realizing he saw the vision about the fulfillment of God's covenant promises with the house of Israel. That is so big for the Book of Mormon authors. And I have to confess that hasn't always been big for me as a reader of the Book of Mormon. I haven't always seen how relevant

the covenants that God made with the ancient house of Israel is for me in my life today. So I think that's why that speaker's always been turned down. But in recent years, as I've cranked that up and put it in its right place, like the Book of Mormon has never been better, honestly. Wow. And let me make a case for Speaker 3 here. You said Scottsonology 2. I think what Scottson has done is basically explain that, hey, if you know And let me make a case for Speaker 3 here to use Scott's analogy too.

I think what Scott's done is basically explain that, hey, if you know the gospel, there's a way to go deeper here too. But if you're a beginner also, those words that are put in all caps in the title page, Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God. I've got the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon pulled up here, and it's that way and that one too. Meaning this was very deliberate that they wanted those words to be emphasized. And not only that Jesus is the Christ, which the Book of Mormon is, to me, the most effective way to introduce someone to that, I'm thinking of my own experience when I was a kid in high school or a freshman

in college that the Book of Mormon didn't just introduce me to the church, it was my gateway to understanding Jesus Christ and coming to know who and what he is. And then it adds in this wonderful phrase where it says, manifesting himself unto all nations, that in the era that we live, another important function of the Book of Mormon plays is to globalize the story of Jesus Christ. It's a story about Jesus working among all nations. A couple of years ago, we were in dialogue with some people from another church, and one of them said, hey, I don't like the Book of Mormon because it's too America's centric. It talks about American exceptionalism, that America's special.. It talks about American exceptionalism,

that America's special. I felt inspired in the moment to say, the message of the Book of Mormon isn't that America's special. It's that there are holy places all over the world and there's not a people on earth or a place on earth that hasn't felt the power of Jesus Christ, that Jesus isn't just the God of Israel, which those Covenant's God is mentioning, talk about, but that Jesus is the God of the whole earth,

and that everybody regardless of where they're coming from should be able to connect with this message and find joy and salvation in it. Scott Casey, I'm thinking of times I've been in my car, plugged in the music, and the speaker balance is off. I'm thinking of times I've been in my car, plugged in the music, and the speaker balances off. And thinking, oh, there's something wrong with this music. When, no, there's something wrong with the speakers. They're not in balance.

As I'm reading, perhaps, Jacob, chapter five, and I'm thinking, hey, why is this not speaking to me? Return to these three speakers and say, what am I supposed to be listening for again? And then maybe coming back to that chapter and cranking up those speakers, really focusing in. And all of a sudden, it starts to speak to me. When you read the Book of Mormon the way the authors of the Book of Mormon crafted it and intended it to be read, it's amazing. Is it that simple? Let's keep our ears and heart attuned to the themes that the authors of

the Book of Mormon intended for us to pick up on. It, which Moroni is announcing right here on the title page for us, keep all three in mind. And if you're starting to say, this isn't really a lot about Jesus. It doesn't feel like this is a lot about Jesus. Maybe back up and say, well, which one of these speakers is it about? At different times, right? Different speakers are going to be louder than others. That's the cool thing about surround sound. The right is a little softer than the left at sometimes, and it kind of gives you that immersive experience.

And the analogy can only go so far, but they're all three always playing all at the same time at the same volume. Yeah, that's helpful as a reader to think about that and to consider which of those three or which of the two in balance with each other or all three active here. What am I supposed to be getting out of this? Jacob thought he was doing something. those three or which of the two in balance with each other or all three active here. What am I supposed to be getting out of this? Jacob thought he was doing something. Nephi thought he was conveying something really important here.

Mormon and Marona thought that they were abridging something really powerful for us. And if we're not feeling that power, then maybe just a little readjustment of the speakers will go a long way. Casey, Scott, I don't know if I've ever had this kind of testimony of the title page before and how crucial it can be because, you know, I'm excited. I start into First Nephi. I'm following the story and then I get the second Nephi. Perhaps I'm losing the energy that I had and maybe it's I didn't get the lift off that

the title page can give me to help me soar through the book. Make it all the way to the end. The momentum. Yeah, the momentum. There's another word I sometimes throw out with my students just for fun. The philosopher Aristotle used the word telos to refer to a thing's purpose, its aim, its end, its ultimate functional reason for existing. Throw up a picture of a toaster and just ask my students, like, what's the tea-loafs of a toaster? What's its purpose? What's it made to do? And it's actually made to do one thing.

One thing. Toast your bread. Maybe throw up a picture of a Swiss army knife and say, all right, what's the tea-loafs of the Swiss army knife? Maybe throw up a picture of an iPhone and say, what's this tea-loafs? Like, some things are made to do many things. And then throw up a picture of the book of Mormon and say, all right, what's the T-lose of the Swiss Army knife? Maybe throw up a picture of an iPhone and say, what's his T-lose? Like, some things are made to do many thing. And then throw a picture of the book of Mormon and say, okay, what's its T-lose? What was it intended to do? What's its function? Is it more like a toaster where it's made to do one thing or like a more like a Swiss Army knife where it can do several things or more like an iPhone

where it can do a lot of things. There were some minds behind this book, just like the reminds behind the creation of the toaster, and the creation of the swiss army life, and Steve Jobs behind the iPhone. There were minds behind it. What do they have to say about the telos of the Book of Mormon? That's how I then go into the title page of the Book of Mormon, and then we say, these are the takeaways, okay? The minds in the book of Mormon want at least these three things to happen as we read this book the word T-lust is helpful. The last line last sentence in the title page says that ye may be found spotless and one time I guess I got bored and started looking for every instance of spotless and unspotted and without spot in the scriptures. The president packer said something like repentance is like soap. And the scriptures speak of being cleansed through Christ's blood,

which we usually think of as blood stains, but Christ's blood cleans. You've probably all heard the idea that you tell them what you're going to tell them, and then you tell them, and then you tell them what you've told them. If the title page is tell them what you're going to tell them and then you tell them and then you tell them what you've told them. If the title page is tell them what you're going to tell them, then the last page would be telling what you've told them, I see in the title page, I see covenants, I see Christ and I see spotless. And I look at Marone, I 10, the last verses and I see that the covenants of the eternal father, which he has made into the Ohelstead Visoral will be fulfilled. Yay, come into Christ. There's covenants. There's Christ. And verse 33, that ye become holy without spot. I see covenants. I see Christ. And I see you can become spotless through the atonement. So tell them what you're going to tell them. Tell them what you've told them on the last page. There's one more thing we haven't mentioned

on the title page here. And that is this part. Moroni's insecurity. He says, now if there are faults, they are the mistakes of men. Wherefore condemn not the things of God. Moroni is very self-conscious of the possibility

of errors in his record. He knows his own inadequacies. He knows the inadequacies of the other writers. I love what he's saying here. If I could restate, I would say, prophetic fallibility does not negate the work of God. For me, it only makes it all the more marvelous because of what it shows us about what God can do through flawed mortals. Exhibition A here is the Book of Mormon. Look at what God can do through flawed mortals. And Moroni is very conscious of that. Ethra chapter 12, he's having a bit of a venting session with

the Lord and he's saying, Lord, the Gentiles are going to mock at these things because of our weakness in writing. He's definitely the most self-conscious of the prophets, I feel like. But that's the miracle. Think of it. This incredible book, tool to do so many eternally vital things, was produced by a series of ancient authors who weren't even college graduates to say nothing of the very rudimental literacy of its 23 year old modern translator. If there are faults, they are the mistakes of men,

but please don't let that overshadow the fact that this comes from God. Both of those are true at the same time. That's so wonderfully human of Maroni too. He's so insecure about his writing, which boy I can relate to, but sometimes I want to just give him a pet on the back and say, hey, you're actually a brilliant writer. I think Scott's correct in saying that as we recognize these grand and glorious promises, Maroni also, such those in the sweet little humble reminder of, hey, the messengers that

bring this to you are imperfect. Are you going to find flaws here? Yeah. Is the message still powerful, potent in life-changing? It is also an imperfect messenger can deliver a message that leads to perfection, that leads to Christ. His personality shines through. When you compare Merone I-10 with this, it's clear that it's the same author that has his own little quirks and his own insecurities, and a lot of that comes through in his voice as it's depicted in the text.

His concern is justified. As I've seen how people respond to the Book of Mormon, not everyone is super kind. For instance, a few years ago back in 2016, there was an overzealous, others-corn president, I think is how the story goes, who said, hey, you know what we should do? Everyone in our ward should go onto Amazon and go into the Book of Mormon and leave a five-star review,

pump up the Book of Mormon, you know? Right, like why you like it. But then the trolls got involved. Then the counter points, there's like 41% five stars and like 55% one stars at the moment that I screen shot. The 751 people in his screenshot of this head left reviews. I just feel like Moroni's like rolling in his grave. Here's a few examples of haters, all right.

And it came to pass, that it came to pass, while it came to pass. It passed, it came, it came to pass. It passed to come. Then while it was coming to pass, it passed and it came and passed. It comes and passes a lot. Said one reviewer.

Yeah. That was actually kind of true. It's like, yeah, it does say it came to pass a lot. I just feel Moronize being like, ah, guys, go easy, Yana. If there's faults, there are the mistakes of men. Okay, man, we could have cut out a few, but it came to pass. Don't let that overshadowed. Stop making fun of this book.

And that's what the Lord says, too, Moroni writes. He says, fool's mock, but they shall mourn. If they don't have charity toward your writing, it's not going to be good with them. His exact words are, for behold, the saying that judgeeth, rashly, shall be judged rashly again. Rash judgment of the Book of Mormon will backfire. Be kind, look through the faults of the writers and try to get to the nuggets that they're actually trying to give us. You're going to have a great experience. Can I share from Elder Holland, this is April 2013. John, you've quoted this a lot to me. Except in the case of his only perfect begotten son,

imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating, Dan. What do he deals with it? So should we. And when you see imperfection, remember that the limitation is not in the divinity of the work. As one gifted writer has suggested,

when the infinite fullness is poured forth, it is not the oil's fault if there is some loss because finite vessels can't quite contain it all. Those finite vessels include you and me, right? Not just Moroni, not just Mormon, not just Nephi Those finite vessels include us too and Elder Holland finishes so be patient and kind and forgiving I love that you pointed out in the title page Moroni saying please go easy on us. Yeah I'm trying to imagine what it's like to be

Moroni son of Mormon and imagine what it's like to be Maroon I Son of Mormon and your father has been working on this project forever and it's his book and it's the Book of Mormon and then all of the sudden he's killed in battle at age about 73 and you are like I have no or I have no where there I go I don't have no kin I have no friends the way Mormon chapter eight starts where am I supposed to finish this do I have to finish this and he has to finish his father's work and I've always felt that's part of his insecurity that it sounds like is coming through is I this wasn't my plan this was my dad's project and his work and now I have to finish it. And I hope I'm doing okay, dad.

I mean, sometimes I look at it that way that this wasn't the way I think Mormon expected it to finish. I think he thought his dad was going to be done with it. I think in the spirit world, the three of them, Joseph, Mormon, and Marona, I trade the plates on each other's mantle like, hey, it's my turn. I keep going in the Book of Mormon. I run into the testimony of the three witnesses, and just a paragraph later, the testimony of the eight witnesses. And then there's 11 names here that if I'm a first time reader, who are these people?

What's happening here? Casey, can I ask you, what do I need to know as I head into these two testimonies of these 11 men? There's three witnesses that saw the angel and the plates and heard the voice of God. They have kind of a supernatural experience. There are all people that are deeply involved in the translation of the book of Mormon. Oliver Country is the primary scribe for almost the entire text. David Whitmer is associated with Oliver Cowdery, brings them to his family's farm, and that's the place where Joseph and Oliver are residing when they complete the translation of the Book of Mormon. And then Martin Harris is well known to. He's one of the earliest scribes, Emma Smith's probably the first scribe from what we can tell.

Martin's the scribe for the lost portion of the manuscript, which is a whole other episode and of itself. But those three have a supernatural experience, and I'll come back in a second and go into more details. I'm just giving you an overview here. Then you've got the eight witnesses. The eight witnesses don't have a supernatural experience.

Their experience is very much physical. They see the plates, they handle the plates, we even have a piece of paper where one of the eight witnesses, we believe it's John Whitmer transcribed characters from the plates. One of the things that the witnesses are designed to do is to operate together.

BH Roberts pointed out that what happens to the three witnesses is very much supernatural. What happens to the eight witnesses is very much natural. Critics of the Book of Mormon, for instance, could say, hey, these three guys were hallucinating. They had a shared hallucination, however that works. That's how you account for what they saw. But that doesn't account for the eight witnesses who saw a set of plates. On the other hand, people could say, well, Joseph Smith just made a fake set of plates. That doesn't account for the three witnesses who saw something supernatural. It's very much by design. The two sets of witnesses are designed to work together. And by the way, there's a 12th witness,

which you got to add on the next page, which is Joseph Smith. Yeah, 3 plus 8 plus one, that's 12. That's a nice number when it comes to witnessing things. And then if you want to, you can even add in Mary Whitmer, who also saw the plates in the angel, that gives you a baker's dozen, 13 people. To the early saints, to us today, this is really important stuff,

because a common criticism of the Book of Mormon is where the plates. Why don't you just show us the plates? Even if we have the plates, I don't know if it would make that big of difference because the message cuts to the quick, you have to make a decision about it. But the fact that we have so many witnesses, and if I was going into court, and I had 13 witnesses at my back, I could pretty much win any case. We might not have the plates, but the next best thing is to have 13 people who, by the way, never ever denied their testimony in spite of what must have been massive pressure to do. So, like I said, starts us down the path. And if you're a critic of the book of Mormon, this would keep me up at night.

Why were all of these people so willing to sacrifice and give up so much if this isn't true? But they do and what they go through is pretty incredible as well. Doctrine COVID in 17 actually gives a list of what the three witnesses are going to see. And section 17 says they'll have a view of the plates, which they all describe in detail. David Whitmer, who I'm going to use as my example here said, we not only saw the plates of the Book of Mormon, but also the brass plates, the plates of the Book of Ether, the plates containing the record of the wickedness

and secret combinations of the people, down to the time they're being engraved, and many other plates. He says, the fact is, it was just as though all of it and I were sitting here on a log. We were overshadowed by a light. It was not the light of the sun, not like that of a fire, but more glorious and beautiful. It extended away around us. I cannot tell how far but in the midst of this light, about as far off as he sits. And in this interview, he pointed to his nephew, John Whitmer, and said, as it appeared

in a table in many records or plates on it, these guys not only see the gold plates that are associated with the Book of Woman, but they see all these other numerous records. Then section 17 says, they're also going to see the breastplate, because there's a breastplate associated with this, the sort of laben, which they also testify that they saw, the urum and thumbum, or the Nephite interpreters that are used to translate the book of Mormon, and then sections 17 mentions that they will see the miraculous directors, which we assume is a reference to the Liyahona, the actual Liyahona from the book of Mormon. There's all these relics that belong to the Nephites that are passed down, and the three witnesses see all of those things.

and the three witnesses see all of those things. And like I said, the three witnesses all have sorted histories with the church. All three of them are excommunicated or leave the church. We're not certain if Martin Harris left the church, but none of them ever deny their witness. Martin says, I didn't leave the church. The church left me. Yeah, right.

Martin Harris is the one that we don't have any record of an excommunication, so we don't think he was excommunicated from the church, but he definitely was not closely affiliated with the church for a period of decades and never denies his testimony. On the other hand, David and Oliver are both excommunicated from the church. You can go to the Joseph Smith paper site and actually look up the minutes from their excommunication hearing. It's painful for them. It's very painful and yet they never deny their testimony of the Book of Mormon either. They stay true to it. In fact, they give numerous speeches when they're outside the church, write letters and continue to bear testimony of the Book of Mormon. For instance, the earliest record and Scott Knight didn't episode on this a couple of weeks ago,

November 1829, Oliver Cowdery writes a letter where he tells somebody about the experience. If you're looking at timelines here, the Book of Mormon is received by Joseph Smith in 1827, translated primarily from April to June of 1829, and it's sometime in the summer of 1829 that they have this experience where they see the angel and behold the relics as well. This letter is from November 1829.

If you're a historian, that's really close to the time of the event. This is as accurate as we would expect it to be. Oliver writes to someone saying, this record gives an account of the first inhabitants of this continent. Is engraved on plates which have the appearance of gold and they are a very curious workmanship. It was a clear, open, beautiful day, far from any inhabitants in a remote field

at the time we saw the record of which has been spoken, brought and laid before us by an angel, a raiding glorious light, as send out of the midst of heaven. Boom, within a couple months, Oliver is explaining the experience and not in vague terms like I had a sort of fuzzy vision, it's a beautiful, clear, open day. And we saw this angel descend from heaven. There's a lot to process there. This guy is seen in angel. You can go to Martin Harris's grave. It's in Clarkson, Utah. I drove my family up there. I made my kids stand on the grave. And I said to them, you are standing on the grave of someone who saw an angel.

And I remember my son's words were, are we going to go to Hardies after this? Because I'm really, and I was like, honestly, do you realize what a big deal this is? Do you know who's in front of you talking about this and who's under there? Yeah, I should have fed him before I took him there in retrospect. But still the fact that where we're living is two hours away from the grave of someone who certifiably saw an angel, it's to me an amazing, amazing deal. Now speaking of Martin Harris, I want to quickly go through the evidence.

These three witnesses were interviewed numerous times. They all live for decades after Oliver Cowdery is the first to die. He passes away in 1850. We probably have the least from him, but Martin Harris and especially David Whitmer live on for decades afterwards under interviewed numerous times. Just to sampling, a little man named William Pilkington, he was hired to take care of Martin Harris. And Pilkington says, I heard Martin bear testimony, scores of times. This is after Martin has rejoined the church

and traveled to Utah and now he's living in Clarkson. Pilkington, this is William Pilkington, said that the day before he died, Martin Harris shared his testimony, even asking William, who's 14 years old at this time, the hold up Martin's right hand while he spoke.

So Martin is so weak, he can't hold up his own right hand. He asked this 14 year old who's this paid helper to raise his hand for him. According to William, this is what Martin said. Just as sure as you see the sun shining, just as sure I am that I stood in the presence of an angel of God with Joseph Smith. I saw him hold the gold plates in his hands.

I also saw the Euroman thumb of the breastplate, the sort of layman. I saw the angel descend from heaven. The heavens were then opened, and I heard the voice of God declare that everything the angel had told us was true, and that the Book of Mormon was translated correct. I was commanded by God's voice to testify to the whole world what I had seen and heard Day before he dies July 8th 1875, according to William Pilkington, Martin Harris bears his testimony of the Book of Mormon Never denies it as far as we know David Wippmer is probably the most

Challenging I guess he's the one of the three that never rejoins the church Oliver Cowdery is He's the one of the three that never rejoins the church. Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated in 1838, but he rejoins in 1848, dies in the faith in 1850. Martin Harris never excommunicated, reaffiliates with the church dies in 1875. David Whitmer never rejoins the church. David Whitmer is more than willing to be interviewed when it comes to this. I've got a book on my shelf called David Whitmer Interviews, The Lyndon Cook Put Together. It's about this thick. And it's just his interviews on the book of Mormon. And he is crystal clear.

But to give you an example, David in 1887, the year before he dies makes this statement directly refuting to Encyclopedias. They were the American Cyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica. Remember when there used to be TV ads for those? Both had published articles saying that the witnesses had denied their testimony. and the Encyclopedia Britannica. Remember when there used to be TV ads for those? Both had published articles saying that the witnesses had denied their testimony. This is what David Whitmer writes.

He says, it is recorded in the American Cyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and that the other two witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, denied their testimony to that book. I will say, once more, to all mankind, that I have never, at any time, denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testified to the world, deny their Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris, at any time,

denied their testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the deathbed of Oliver Cowdery and his last words were Brother David be true to your testimony of the Book of Mormon. The way you connect the witnesses is Martin Harris is kind of like the weird uncle of the restoration. He's this figure that's not connected but David and Oliver are deeply connected. Their brothers-in-law, Oliver Mary's David's sister Elizabeth. After Oliver rejoins the church in 1848, instead of going west, he goes to Richmond, Missouri to try and get his in-laws to rejoin the church. They don't, and Oliver

passes away while he's there. But they're there at the deathbed. And that's what every one of the Whitmer say that Oliver did on his deathbed, Oliver bore a final testimony of the book of Mormon said that it's true. We don't know where Oliver's buried, but I've been to David Whitmer's grave in Richmond, Missouri, and his headstone, actually, the guy's headstone has the words, the record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one truth is eternal. Chiseled into the headstone. I would suggest that if you're having something chiseled into your headstone, you're pretty serious about it. He wanted this witness to be there and this is a guy who isn't part of the church at this point who has not a lot of good things to say about Joseph Smith, because he's still angry 40 years later

over his ex-communication, but refuses to deny that he saw an angel, saw the relics and that the book of Mormon was true. How much more powerful than that can you get? Incredible. And it used to bother me that the three witnesses got excommunicated or out out of the church, would cock my head and be like, how on earth could those three be out of the church if

what they said was actually true? And it used to bother me, but the deeper I dug into that and researched their lives, like you're saying, so well, Casey, they were adamant to the core that their experience was legit. They lost faith that Joseph Smith was still a prophet of God, and that the church that he organized was the only way to come into Christ. But they never, for one second, questioned the authenticity and validity of their experience. I found a great quote that brings this home from

President Henry B. Eyring. This is back in 2003. This is how he framed it, which I thought was perfect. He said, the three witnesses never denied their testimony of the Book of Mormon. They could not because they knew it was true. They made sacrifices and faced difficulties beyond what most people ever know. Oliver Cowdry gave the same testimony about the divine origin of the Book of Mormon as he lay dying As he just mentioned that and then he says But in the times of trial They wavered in their faith that Joseph was still God's prophet and that the only way to come under the Savior was through his restored church And then he drops this line

that they continued to affirm drops this line, that they continue to affirm what they saw and heard in that marvelous experience during long periods of astrangement from the church and from Joseph makes their testimony more powerful. Thought about that a lot, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. There was no possible conceivable ulterior motive that could keep these men continuing to testify the authenticity of that experience. And yet speak, especially David Whitmer, so outright against Joseph Smith. I have a picture of a handwritten note from David Whitmer in response to a Mr. Robert Nelson back in July of 1887.

Robert Nelson had asked about his experience. Is it really true? David Whitmer says this, he says, dear sir, I did see the angel as it is recorded in my testimony in the book of Mormon. The book is true and he underlines is true. And then he says, but the gathering de Jackson County, Missouri, I think, was a little too hasty. And he starts to complain about Joseph Smith. think was a little too hasty and he starts to complain about Joseph Smith. It's just like right in the same like he had a big problem with Joseph. Polygamy, he had a big problem with Joseph even organizing a church.

And we thought that was a little arrogant. He has all these funny quirky little things against Joseph Smith. But look at Mormon. Absolutely true. No question. Not for a second. God chose his witnesses wisely on that score, knowing that they would do what they did is perfect because it does take away all of the

Volterior motives that one might have. If they were angry at Joseph Smith, there are no three men better positioned to hurt him than these three men. If their testimony is false, they are a Coke and Spearters with Joseph. And when Joseph allows them to get out of the church, if this was false, game over for Joseph Smith, because these guys can really hit him where it hurts. They can expose that. Pull the carpet right out from underneath the whole narrative. But if an angel of God commanded you to bear witness of this, and you heard the voice of God bear witness and said it should be accountable before the judgment seat of Christ for how well you actually bear witness of this and you heard the voice of God bear witness and say that you'd be accountable

Before the judgment seat of Christ for how well you actually bear witness of this book Not about Joseph Smith not about the church, but about this book if that was an authentic experience Then their behavior makes total sense. It's pretty remarkable Yeah, and there's a tendency on our part sometimes to criticize these guys like why did they leave the church? I'm not going to deal with that, but as witnesses of the Book of Mormon, they are stellar. They never falter, they never have a weak moment. We're still finding stuff that shows this. There's a manuscript written by this early apostle named William McClellan that was only published a couple years ago. They did work it in the saints, but it was during the Missouri persecutions. And McClellan is literally hiding out in the woods

for fear of his life. And according to McClellan, he comes across Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, who are hiding in the woods as well. And he breaks down and says, guys, this is tough. I don't know if I can do this, unless it's true.

And Willie McClellan said that right then and there in the woods, David and Oliver both assured him, hey, it is true. We saw an angel and we saw the plates. Again, under those circumstances where you're being burned out of house and home, it would be so easy for them to just stand up and say, it was all a joke. And yet they're assuring this poor struggling brother in his faith that, no, it was all a joke. And yet they're there assuring this poor struggling brother in his faith that, no, it's real. It's real. You're not giving up your home and your safety for nothing. You're doing it for something that's very real and that comes from God. I honor these men

for their integrity, even if they did have maybe some personal fail. Well, once it went, they weren't perfect. We can go back to the title page of the Book of Mormon. If there are faults in these three witnesses, they are the faults of men, but don't let that overshadow the power and consistency of their testimony of the Book of Mormon. You guys will remember this, but I remember in general conference

when Elder Dalin H. Oaks at the time, he was talking about Martin Harris. And there was this mic drop moment when he said his middle name was Dalin Harris Oaks. And he talked about the connection. He said, we need to let Martin come out from the shadow of that event in church history. And I thought, yeah, he was baptized after the 116 pages were lost or stolen. Do we believe that baptism for the remission of sins? Yeah, the ancient and Dalin-Atox is for Harris because he's a descendant of Martin Harris's brother, Emer Harris. These three witnesses not only is the role they play in the coming world of the Book of Mormon crucial,

but these are the three who are chosen to call the first 12 apostles to serve. Until 1838, these are Joseph's right hand men. Then all that stuff happens that causes them to be excommunicated or leave the church. But like you said, we need to honor them for what they did. We need to glory in their goodness and not dwell so much on their faults. And when it comes to the book of Mormon, boy, they passed the test with flying colors. Another thing it makes me think of is you pick up a book now nearly 200 years later, and you see these names. But at the time, they had to live in these communities.

They were accessible, like you said. People went and interviewed them over and over and over, and to put your name out right now in contemporary time. That's a different thing and sometimes 200 years later we forget that. Amazing, amazing man. And we need to give them credit for what they did. Yeah, let me read from their testimony before we move on. We can't read the whole thing here, but let me just give you some highlights. We have seen the plates which contain this record. We know of a surety that this work is true.

An angel of God came down from heaven and he brought and laid before our eyes, we be health and saw the plates. We bear record that these things are true. We bear testimony of these things are true, we bear testimony of these things, honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. That is a powerful message that speaks through the centuries. Coming up in part two of this episode. We had a strange event happen on my missions, Where these elders felt like with demonic spirits,

we're influencing an investigator, and we were all panicking, we call their mission president. Our mission president said. you