Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Introductory Pages of the Book of Mormon Part 2 • Dr. Casey Griffiths & Dr. Scott Woodward • Jan 1 - Jan 7

Episode Date: December 27, 2023

Dr. Scott Woodward and Dr. Casey Griffiths continue to explore the importance of studying. They invite listeners to study, investigate, and ponder the Book of Mormon this year.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/book-of-mormon-episodes-1-13/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056YouTube: https://youtu.be/FGv8h18m3icInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part II–Dr. Casey Griffiths and Dr. Scott Woodward00:07 Background of the Eight Witnesses04:00 Samuel Smith as first missionary of the Restoration06:02 Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses by Richard Lloyd Anderson07:01 A miracle09:40 John Welch and the translation of the Book of Mormon12:32 30,000 foot view of the translation and proof of the Book of Mormon18:51 A challenge to reproduce the Book of Mormon20:25 Emma Smith’s testimony of the translation of the Book of Mormon23:13 Intersectionality in the Book of Mormon24:11 The Resurrection24:38 Dr. Casey Griffiths thoughts on The Book of Mormon and gospel of Jesus27:58 Dr. Scott Woodward’s hopes for the Saints in 202435:14 End of Part II– Dr. Casey Griffiths and Dr. Scott WoodwardThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two of Dr. Casey Griffiths and Dr. Scott Woodward on the introductory pages of the Book of Mormon. Casey, we so often focus on the three witnesses that sometimes the eight are overshadowed. You said that these two testimonies complement each other. One is the supernatural experience, the other, this very tactile, natural experience. What do we need to know about these eight witnesses? The eight witnesses, like you mentioned, have a much less supernatural experience. In fact, here's their words, Joseph and Jr. the translator of this work has shown unto us the plates of which have been spoken, which have the appearance of gold. And as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands. We also saw the gravings thereof,

all of which has the appearance of ancient work and curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness that the said Smith has shown unto us for we have seen and have to, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. What they bear witness to is that they actually

physically handle the plates, that they're able to turn the pages. We have a document that community of Christ as in its possession that we're fairly sure comes from John Whitmer where he copied characters from the plates called characters document. And they tell a story to not all of the eight witnesses stay in the church either in the general rule of thumb is if their last name Smith, they died in the church. If their last name's Whitmer, they didn't die in the church with two exceptions, Christian and Peter. Christian and Peter both died in 1835 and 1836 respectively and don't ever leave the church die faithfully. But Jacob Whitmer, John Whitmer, and Hiram Page, Hiram Page is a brother-in-law of the Whitmer die faithfully. But Jacob Whitmer, John Whitmer, and Hiram Page, Hiram Page is a brother-in-law of the Whitmer.

He's married to Catherine Whitmer. All do leave the church, but also never deny their testimony. The witnesses are essentially from these two families. They're Smiths and their Whitmers. The Whitmers were the family that Joseph and Oliver stayed with during the last month of Book of Mormon translation. And they become the stalwarts in the church. Unfortunately, in 1838, when David

is excommunicated, the Whitmer's Ball leave together, and that includes Oliver, who's a Whitmer as well. So walking through each one of them, there's a hundred other stories to be told about their faithfulness, their fidelity, their integrity when it comes to questions about Book of Mormon. For instance, John Whitmer, who is assigned as church historian, who writes some of the early histories of the church, is bearing witness of the Book of Mormon into his late 70s. This is something that was written down when someone saw him preach February 1878. Mr. Whitmer is considered a truthful honest and law-biting citizen by this community. That's Kingston, Missouri, the town where John Whitmer settled and stayed there

the rest of his life. Consequently, his appointment drew out a large audience. Mr. Whitmer stated that he had often handled the identical golden plates which Mr. Smith received from the hand of an angel. He said it was a pure gold. Part of the work was sealed up as solid. The other part was open and it was this part that was translated which is the day term the Mormon Bible. This is the first time Mr. Whitmer's attempted to preach in a good many years and time who waits for no one has written many a furrow upon his brow. He's upwards of 60 years old and gave some good advice to both old and young before closing and asked the audience if they would take the book of Mormon in the Bible and

compare them and to take Paul's rule to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. So not just the three witnesses but the eight witnesses demonstrate absolute integrity and fidelity when it comes to their testimony, that there were plates that they handled the plates. In fact, Hiram Smith, you know, right, and Joseph Smith's senior is the original patriarch in the church that Joseph's father. Samuel Smith is a Smith brother that we don't hear as much about, but he is the first missionary of the church. And apparently, as soon as the Book of Mormon was published, took a ruck sack of copies of the Book of Mormon,

and started going around preaching. And the story we usually tell is that Samuel wasn't super successful, that he didn't convert anybody on his trip, and even got turned out adores for testifying the book of Mormon. But the second part of the story that we need to tell is that he does place a copy of the book of Mormon with John Green. And he's married to a woman named Rhoda Green. Rhoda's made name is young, which should bring a bell. Rhoda's the sister of Brigham Young.

Eventually she starts to read the book of Mormon and converts, and she brings her brother Phineas Young to meet with Samuel. So Samuel comes back, and apparently they're all sitting there at a table, and Phineas Young pulls out the book of Mormon and turns to the back of it, because that's where the witnesses are found in the 18th or ebook of Mormon. They're not at the beginning. They're at the end of the book. And he read through the testimony of the eight witnesses then pointed at Samuel H. Smith, then turned to Samuel and said, sir, is this your name in the book? Samuel said, yes, and I want to bury you in my testimony in person, but I saw the plates and that the book is true. Samuel was a little bit more successful than we sometimes give him credit for it because he does convert Rody Young and then Phineas Young and then eventually Brigham Young

down the road. So I'll become part of this chain of conversion that Samuel sets off. And they have some impact, right, Casey? They have some impact on the future of the church. They do a good thing here or there, you know, the school I work at is named after one of them. So they turned out okay. Always nice to look back on your converts and see how they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Samuel's like, how did mine turn out? He did all right. Pretty good. Pretty good. But again, none of these eight witnesses either, have her deny their testimony, though three of them end up outside the church.

I just wanted to put a quick plug if anyone wants to do like a deep dive into the witnesses. There's an awesome book. It's called Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses by Richard Lloyd Anderson. I think it's a single best thing ever written about the witnesses, not quite 200 pages. So it goes a deep dive into not just their witness, but also critics. It's awesome. It's excellent. Wonderful. Let's move to a different section of the manual. It's called the coming forth of the Book of Mormon

as a miracle. If someone asked you where the Book of Mormon came from, what would you say? How would you describe God's involvement in giving us the Book of Mormon? As you read Joseph Smith's testimony, pay attention to how he described it. Based on what you read, how do you think God feels about the importance of the

book of Mormon? Now Scott and Casey, I know that you have episode after episode on the church history matters podcast about this. Our listeners can go there if they want to get the details, but give us a 30,000 foot view as John likes to call it. I would say it this way. Sometimes when I teach this, I'll ask my students, do you guys want to see a miracle? And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, no, honestly, like, do you guys want to see an actual miracle?

I'm not joking, okay? He's just looked like the face of a guy who's joking right now, you know, kind of build it up, you know? And they're like, okay, sure, sure, sure. And they're like, all right, I got it right here. And then I pull out build it up, you know, and they're like, okay, sure, sure, sure. And they're like, all right, I got it right here. And then I pull out of my backpack, a book of Mormon, just a nice missionary, a blue one, like it's right here.

Do you guys want to see it kind of walk up and down the rows? Like, do you guys want to? You want to hold it? You want to? But then I just want to say, I am dead serious about this. And then we get into it, right? The book of Mormon itself frames the coming forth of the Book of Mormon as a miracle. In context of describing the coming forth of the Book of Mormon to an

unlearned boy struggling to get a sealed book translated, the Lord is quoted in 2nd Nephi 27 as saying this. So it's in this context, he says, quote, for behold, I am God, and I am a God of miracles. And I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever, and I work not among the children of men, save it be according to their faith." He says, therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people. Yay, a marvelous work and a wonder.

For the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid. That's the framing of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. It's the God of miracles working through an unlearned boy to bring about a marvelous work in a wonder. That's how the Book of Mormon frames it. That's perfect. And as we do a deep dive into the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. It just gets more and more astonishing.

How miraculous this actually was. Let me just drop a few things, 30,000 foot view here. The last of the Book of Lehigh was Superbrutal for Joseph Smith, the plates, and the Euroman thumb and were taken away for a season, the season of repentance. On the 22nd of September, 1828, Joseph gets his gift restored. The plates are restored. The Jerman Thumbs restored. He doesn't seem to do much translating during that time until Oliver Cowdery shows up in April of 1829. April 5th to be specific. And then two days later on April 7th, they start. They begin what is basically the entire Book of Mormon as we have it.

Joseph picks up right where he left off. The book of Lehigh probably starts in Mosiah. Goes all the way to the end of the book of Mormon. And then they ask, should we retranslate the book of Lehigh? Answer is no. DNC 10 says, just do the small plates. And so they'll actually translate first Nephi through words of Mormon last. In the midst of all of that, we can actually track a few key dates,

a few anchor points, as to the speed of all of that, we can actually track a few key dates, a few anchor points, as to the speed of the translation. This is where I just kind of start boggling my mind. The speed of the translation was about 65 working days within about a 90-day period. About 65 working days is how close that we can track it. And credit to Jack Welch, founder of Scripture Central, for really doing the hard work at pinning down these anchor points. So good, so meticulous. 65 days. Why might that matter to know that the Book of Mormon came forth in 65 days? I would respond. The speed at which this comes

forth is very suspicious of a miracle. It kind of smells. It smells miraculous. For comparison, King James Bible took seven years for 47 scholars, theologians clergyman, to translate from Hebrew and Greek into English. The LDS triple combination, Book of Mormon, Dr. Covins, progriprice, that took three years for six full-time general authorities full staff and secretaries 100 plus return missionaries three years to get that some people might say well it's fiction book of women's fiction to which we'll shelf that argument for now but I'd say let's compare it to some fiction the hobbit J.R. Tolkien this took two and a half years for him to write. Lord of the Rings trilogy, 12 years. Harry Potter, just volume one, just volume one, where we're doing some serious world building, right? Tolkien and JK Rowling,

build a world which would be required for the Book of Mormon. Harry Potter, volume one, took six years. Les Miserables by Victor Hugo took 12 years. Let me just say it again. The Book of Mormon took 65 days, one pass, and it was done. No punctuation. One sentence. One sentence. The witnesses who were scribes for Joseph Smith were talking MS myth, were talking Martin Harris, were talking Oliver Cowdery.

They say that Joseph was just looking at the instruments that came with the plates to translate or, alternately, a seer stone that Joseph had. Several of them talk about him putting it in the bottom of his hat, so as to block out extraneous light, and he would put his face in the hat and the rocks, the stones, the seer stones would shine. David Whitmer says, quote, he drew it, the hat, closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness, the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing.

One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English, and Joseph would read it off, and Oliver Cowdery would write it down. And if it was correct, then it would disappear. And another character would appear with the interpretation underneath it. He says, and this is David Witt saying, quote, thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. You think about this, a book like the Book of Mormon, 65 days, Joseph Smith, 23 years old at this time, dictating to a scribe that wrote it down, and we get a book like the book

of Mormon in the complexity of this remarkable book, you know, the literary complexity. Now we could talk about that for a few hours if you want, just a few things to throw out. There's just a few examples of complexity like geographical complexity. There are more than 500 references in the book of Mormon to 150 plus geographical locations that are internally and spatially consistent with each other. There's three different calendar systems that are referred to consistently and without error throughout the whole book. From the time I father left Jerusalem, and then the reign of the judges, then from the time of the sign of the Savior's birth. That's just in the background. It's so subtle. It's just, but it's always

insisting. There's efficient monetary systems of weights and measures. There's authentic legal cases. There's realistic warfare. He'll be brown, broke it down like this. He said there's 71 chapters on doctrine and exhortation and 21 chapters on the ministry of Christ that clarifies and expands upon, but doesn't contradict biblical doctrine. Let's add another one. There's one chapter, 77 verses long, but describes an extended allegory about tame and wild olive trees that cryptically expounds upon the scattering and gathering of Israel throughout all time, all while agreeing both with true botanical

principles and true biblical doctrine. There's one chapter 30 versus long that forms the most complex and complete chiasmus known in scripture. And there's no attention drawn to the fact we're 30,000 feet. Let me know if we need to the fact we're 30,000 feet. Hey, let me know if we need to go lower on any of these things. But hey, we'll give us a preview for what we're going to look at this year. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. We're previewing this. Just chiasmos is just a nice ancient literary style of writing of parallelism. Nobody even knew about those in the book of Mormon, tell about 120 years after Joseph Smith's death. those in the Book of Mormon, tell about 120 years after Joseph Smith's death. Then we have a missionary in Germany, John Welch, who discovers this after attending a Jewish presentation about

chiasmus in the Bible. And he thought, well, the Book of Mormon is ancient scripture, so maybe it's in there too. And it was written by people with book Hebrews, so maybe we could find it in there. And sure enough, all the chiasmus research of the Book of Mormon is born through this marvelous moment in time. Throughout the entire book, you're going to find this kind of complexity, Hebrew enough, all the chiasmos research of the Book of Mormon is born through this marvelous moment in time. Throughout the entire book, you're going to find this kind of complexity, Hebrew complexity, literary complexity, elaborate flashbacks, literary foreshadowing, allegory, metaphor, unique figures of speech. There's locations that will later be discovered as real like Nehom, the place of Bountiful, where Nephi builds a ship. These areas that have been studied like crazy by scholars for years and years and years, saying,

this is all not just plausible, but there's actually a few anchor points that are really incredible here. Joseph Smith whipped through all of that in 65 days. And I'll say that there are some seeming anachronisms, things that don't seem like they should be there, like steel and 600 BC, or like cement, horses, and there's been big, long lists made of the anachronisms of the Book of Mormon. But what's fascinating is that over time, that list is shrinking, we're finding more and more evidence that what we thought

was anachronistic in the Book of Mormon, which shouldn't be there yet? Actually, oh, turns out there was barley over here. Oh, turns out there were people using cement. Yeah, there are actually steel swords. We found some in Jericho about this time period and there are. So there are still some on the list of anachronisms that don't seem to fit in time yet, but that list is slowly but steadily getting authenticated over time. John, Hank, Casey, he's 23 years old.

I don't know any 23 year olds that can crank something like this in 65 years, let alone 65 days. And from that experience, we get the book of Mormon. It's dumb-founding. Estonishing isn't quite strong enough. As the Lord said in 2nd Nephi 27, the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid. It is absolutely a bonafide, remarkable miracle, a marvelous work and a wonder to keep that in mind as you read the book of Mormon is phenomenal. Oh, by the way, we haven't even mentioned the spiritual convincing power of this book and the clarity of the doctrine and the principles that it teaches to actually help drive you to Jesus. Millions can bear this testimony, right? That's what the book does really, really well.

That's part of the telos of this book is that the book of Mormon brings people to Jesus. And it does it really, really well. You add all that together. The young inexperienced, relatively uneducated 23-year-old translator. Looking at stones, his process, looking at stones in his hat, and reading words that appear. And then the remarkable content with the complexity, the coherence, and the remarkable spiritual

convincing power of this book, you understand why this is called the marvelous work in wonder. The miracle is that a book like this came through a boy like that, but then you add the stones in the hat bit and it's off the charts. You want to see a miracle? You want to see a miracle? You want to see a miracle? Get a copy of the Book of Mormon and you're looking at it. It's no wonder B.A. Traubord's church historian, church leader, when someone said to him, come on, it's just a book. He said, match it. If it's just a book, you do it. Match it. Match it, I say, or with hands-on lips, remain silent when Joseph's name is spoken.

If it's so simple, you do it. I do joke like that with my students. I'll say, you know what, you don't have to do another assignment in my class. If you just want to write your own book of Mormon, I'll give you an A. You can skip all the other stuff. Don't even have to attend.

Yeah. Here's the criteria, and then I lay all that out. You can't have any notes. You have to just look and take it to a series. You can't go backwards. Exactly. Brian Hills has that challenge. He says, you don't even need a scribe today

because you could just use that little button on your phone for text messaging and you've got a virtual scribe. He said, here's what you got to do though. He said, you need to recite a series of text messages of 20 to 30 words each to a recipient who's then going to compile them to create a manuscript. And he says, to more closely emulate Smith's efforts, the text block should be consistently spoken

in a vernacular that's different from the author's daily speech. Before heading send, spelling and grammar could be corrected, but once you hit send, that's it. The sequence and the meaning of the sentences will not be altered. After repeating that sequence around 10,000 times to create a continuous string of words of about 270,000, the text is then immediately delivered directly to a publisher for type-setting and printing. So give it a shot. That's how you do it. Nobody knows exactly how it works,

but what we do have is the end product of that. I don't know much about seer stones and I find it a little bit odd, but what I do know is the Book of Mormon text, and if that text came through seer stones, then I'm a believer in seer stones. I have a thought here from Elder Callister to Add Callister, and I think this sums up pretty well what you've taught a Scott. He says, the argument that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon is simply counter to the realities of life. It is one thing to have creative ideas. It is quite another to put them into a complex but coherent and harmonious whole inundated with majestic doctrine. all truths, all done in a single draft. Amen. What Scott's done is exactly the way we should approach this. There's a lot of complexity.

We did six episodes on it, as to how the Book of Mormon was translated as to what David Whitmer said versus what Oliver Cowdery said versus what Emma said. But in all of that, don't miss the forest for the trees here. The big view is that every single person that was involved in the coming forth of the Book of Mormon saw it as miraculous as something that they could not explain through natural means. In fact, if I could share an experience really fast a couple of years ago, I was in the community of Christ Temple doing research in their archives.

And I was with Tonal and Ford, who is this wonderful scholar, one of my favorite people, and they brought out a manuscript to her. It was just a bunch of loose leaf paper written all over in pencil, and I walked over and said, what is that? And Tonnell and said, these are the notes from the last interview Emma Smith gave before she passed away. The interviewer was her son, Joseph III, who was present in the organized church at the time.

Boy, am I suddenly interested? Because of all the people involved in the translation process, Emma is there the night that he gets the plates. She's literally at the hill. When Joseph goes up and gets the plates and brings them down, she's probably the earliest scribe. And other than a couple of weeks,

when Joseph was at the Whitmer home, Emma is there for the entire process. Okay, from when he gets the plates in September, 1827 to when the manuscripts completed in 1829 and during those crucial three months when Joseph and Oliver produced the entire 531 page manuscript that we're familiar with. At one point in this interview, and I took a picture of this page, he flat out asks

or do you think he could have faked this? And this is what he wrote down Emma is saying. She said, my belief is the book of Mormon is of divine authenticity. I have not the slightest doubt of it. I'm satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired. For when acting as a scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour. And when returning after meals or after interruptions, he could at once begin where he left off, without either seeing the manuscript

or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this. And for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible. There's the person closest to Joseph Smith through the whole process, basically saying, I can't explain this. I knew him better than anybody else. I can't explain where it came from. And one point in here that John Hilton, our friend, likes to point out is that she says Joseph Smith would leave and come back and pick up without looking at anything. There's intertextuality in the Book of Mormon. There's places in the Book of Mormon where prophets in the Book of Mormon quote earlier prophets.

The Book of Alma quotes King Benjamin, the text is produced exactly. What Emma is describing, if it's accurate, has no physical explanation for how he could have done this. It's like Scott said, the book starts with a miracle. Don't skip over the material before the record begins in First Nephi, because what they're documenting here is a miracle as well documented as any I can think of. Maybe the resurrection of Christ, but you have so many people who had so many reasons to doubt what happened that all came away with

this ironclad testimony that they had participated in something miraculous. And for those of us today that look for miracles that wonder if God is there, if he hears us, if the day of miracles is passed. This is proof positive that it has done. And God can and will still do miracles for us. I'm glad you brought up the resurrection there, Casey. It just reminds me when I see that empty stone box, the paintings of the empty stone box and the hulk more. I always think of the empty two, right?

Two miracles, two miracles with that empty stone box. Well, 12 witnesses of both, right? It lines up really well as well. And a woman named Mary? Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. Hey, well done. Yeah, I haven't had me that connection. Nice. So in saying all of this about the miraculous nature of the Book of Mormon, does this actually prove the Book of Mormon is true? I think that's an interesting question to ask. Does that prove it is true?

You know, if I mean totally honest, I have to say, no, it doesn't prove that it's true. But it does prove that this book should be taken very seriously, that this book should be studied very seriously. Although it's casually dismissed by far too many people in the world, we're not gonna let that happen. Are we not this year?

We're gonna study this book deeply in this church. We have the singular opportunity to do that, to dig deep, to examine, to ponder this book more deeply and seriously and carefully than maybe we've ever done before in our life. I mean, what an opportunity before us now. This book deserves our careful, careful study. And we get to do it this year.

That's amazing. Absolutely wonderful. It has been such a treat to have you both here. I picture our listeners at home, they're either fold in laundry or they're shoveling snow or maybe they're down in Australia on the beach. What are you hoping? What do you want us to know? Casey, let's start with you. The first thing that comes to mind is just read it. You know, my testimony of the church and my testimony of Christ is linked to the Book of Mormon.

Before I knew all this stuff about the witnesses, before I knew all this stuff about translation, before I was familiar with the evidence, which I find overwhelming that the Book of Mormon is an authentic document that it's exactly what it claims to be. I was just a college freshman who came to BYU with a lot of doubts and questions and was asked by a great religion teacher, Todd Parker, to read the Book of Mormon 30 minutes a day. That was the only assignment in this class pretty much, was you have to read the Book of Mormon 30 minutes every day.

That year of my life, when I was in the Book of Mormon every day, because I took his class two semesters where I first half, second half changed me. Helped me know that Jesus Christ was my savior, helped me make the decision to serve a mission. All good things in my life. I could trace back to those choices that I made. I would say, pick up the book and read it and read it intensely and read it with those

three things we've talked about, what good things Christ has done for people, what covenant he's made with people, and that he is the Christ manifesting of self-alignations. And you don't have to dress it up much fancier than that. If you do that, you'll gain a witness that Jesus Christ lives and that the book of Mormon is true. Or if you already have those things, you'll find your witness strengthened in your spiritual health restored as you spend time in these pages.

Weird experience I could share really fast. We had a strange event happen on my mission where these elders felt like, you know, demonic spirits were influencing an investigator and we were all panicking and we call their mission president. Our mission president said, just sit down and read the book of Mormon with them. Read the book of Mormon.

You'll have those anxieties, those fears, those evil spirits cast down and you'll feel the Holy Spirit in your life. I mean, read it. Get your nose in the book and read it. Would be my first counsel to everybody. Thank you, Casey. Scott, what do you think? We're setting off here in 52 weeks of intense study, the book of Mormon.

And I hope all of our listeners can commit to that. I know with Come Follow Me it's often the beginning of the year is we hit it hard and then we kind of dwindle a little bit and we can all commit I'm going to get all the way to the end of the row here. What are you hoping happens? Well I want to share a little quote from Wilford Woodruff who was hanging out at Brigham Young's house on November 28th, 1841. Here's what he said, quote, I spent the day at Brigham Young's home

in company with Joseph and the 12 in conversing upon a variety of subject. He said that Joseph started talking about the Book of Mormon. This is cool, right? This is now, what, 12 years almost removed from the translation of the Book of Mormon. It's had a life so far, short life in the church, but it's had a life in the church. And here's Joseph Smith reflecting on the Book of Mormon a little bit. And well, for Woodruff writes this down.

He said, Joseph said, the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion. And that's part of my favorite part. And a man would get near to God by abiding by its precepts then by any other book. I guess that would be it, Hank. My testimony is that the Book of Mormon cannot only withstand careful examination,

but that when we seriously engage with it, do what Joseph said here, abide by its precepts, that it leads to incredible spiritual strength and intellectual satisfaction. That has absolutely been my experience. That's what I would leave with you. Abide by the precepts. Abide by the precepts. Abiding by its precepts. Over the course of my teaching, I had a long conversation with the Lord in which the beginning of my teaching, the beginning coming out of my teenage years reading the Book of Mormon, I think I told the Lord, like, Lord, the Book of Mormon is true. And

reading the Book of Mormon and I think I told the Lord, like, Lord, the Book of Mormon's true. And he said, yes, yes, it is. I'm glad you found that out. I've learned since that that wasn't the end. That was the beginning. I thought that was the point where we find out the book is true. And then I see that there's so much more than that. Because once you realize the book is true, I've come to realize it can make me true. That's what I've seen the power and not necessarily finding out that it's true, which it is, but finding out what it can do to me as I abide by those precepts like you said, Scott. That makes me think of a verse in Dr. Nickovance 84, where it's a famous verse where the church is under condemnation,

because they have not been remembering. Yeah, they've been taking lightly the things of God, particularly the Book of Mormon, he highlights in verse 57. He says, but listen to this, just in light of what you're just saying, in light of that Joseph Smith quote, the Lord says, they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments, which I have given them. Not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written, I want you to do them. I didn't give you the Book of Mormon just so you could have fascinating, intellectually

stimulating conversations. I didn't give you the Book of Mormon, you could talk doctrine with each other. It's not just to say, I do want those conversations, yes, but not only to say, but to do according to that, which I have written, he says, which I have written. I think that just goes hand in hand with what you're saying and with this abide by its precepts concept. That's powerful. Wow, wow, John, what a day. If I was excited before, which I was, I'm even more excited now. Absolutely. I've got pages of notes of additions to my own teaching and I'm going to make, I love

what Scott just said about a bite by its precepts because I think when I was younger, I thought a testimony was a feeling. It was, I'm going to wait for the burning. That's how I know I have a testimony. And I'm still growing and learning, but I feel like more and more of my testimony now is you'll know by their fruits. It's, you'll see results, you'll see outcomes. And abiding by its precepts brings outcomes.

It changes me. It has changed me. It's changed people that I have loved by reading it and then abiding by its precepts. And that is what is the real testimony of do what the book says and watch what it does to you and for you and watch the light that you get from it and the hope and the forgiveness that you get when you start abiding by its precepts. And that's where my testimony is.

It's look at the fruits of this. Look at what it has done for people I know and love and for so many. This is going to be a very fun year for that reason. Absolutely. Let's return to where we started this opening paragraph of the manual. Before you even get to first Nephi chapter one, you will notice the book of Mormon is no ordinary book. This year, as you read, pray, and apply its teachings, you will invite the Savior's power

into your life, and you may feel moved to say, as the witness has did, it is marvelous in my eyes. Scott Casey, thank you so much for your time. It has been wonderful to have you back, friends. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Wonderful for your time. It has been wonderful to have you back, friends. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Wonderful to be here. John, this is just the beginning of what's going to be a powerful, wonderful, absolutely. We want to thank Dr. Casey Griffiths and Dr. Scott Woodward for being with us today.

What a joy. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Swartzen, our sponsors, David and Verla Swartzen, and we always remember our founder, Steve Swarzen. Join us next week, we're jumping into First Nephi on Follow Him. Today's transcripts, show notes and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That's followhim.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free and we'd love for you to share it with your family and friends. We'd like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study.

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