Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Isaiah 13-35 Part 2 • Dr. Kerry Muhlestein • Sept 12-18

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein returns and examines the voices "out of the dust" that remind every Saint of the redemption of Jesus Christ through covenants.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the follow HIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers, SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-h

Welcome to Part 2, Visea 13-35 with Dr. Kerry Mielstein. I'd like to just jump a little bit to Chapter 27. 24-27, each chapter in some way, says the same thing as the next chapter. It's just this theme that he keeps repeating, but he does it so beautifully. I just want to look at verse one of chapter 27. That's really powerful, beautiful stuff. And I love that you said, it's not just the serians and Babylonians

and New Testament Romans that are enemy, I'm gonna swallow up death. Let's think for a moment, my students often feel uncomfortable, and we encounter this all over in scriptures, but especially in Isaiah, they feel uncomfortable when they read something about God destroying cities

or being vying. There are times in Isaiah where he says, you're violent. They feel uncomfortable with that, but we have to couple of, with verse eight and nine. And I think chapter 27, verse one really helps us with this. This is a phrase that a lot of my students are not comfortable with, but I rejoice in. So chapter 27 verse 1,

In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish Leviathan, the piercing serpent, even Leviathan, that crooked serpent, and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. And then verse 2, And that day, sing ye under her of men year to red wine. But he's singing because God has a sore and great and strong sword that he punishes with. Most of us don't like to think of Christ

or Jehovah going around with a great big sword, but we like to think of him having a hanky in his hand that can wipe away all the tears from off our faces. But the reason he can wipe away the tears from off our faces. But the reason he can wipe away the tears from off our faces is because he had a sword and he killed Leviathan with it. Leviathan is this great serpent that probably isn't real, but it represents chaos and death and hell and everything else. And it's because Christ is a divine warrior. It is because he will destroy all oppression that he can wipe our tears away. There's no wiping our tears away if he doesn't have a sword in the other hand.

And I think we need to understand that. And to some degree, there's a great comfort. We all have something that's oppressing us. There are a serians all over in our life. And it might be pornography. It might be depression or anxiety. It might be that I'm never going to get married. It might be physical things that are

reflecting us. Whatever it is, we all have in a Syrian in our life. But what we can be sure of is that Christ can conquer every single one of those because he has a sword that is sore and great and strong. And after he conquers those oppressions, then he can wipe our tears away. And that image is as moving to me as anything anywhere in Scripture. It speaks to me as I watch my children struggle with things, it speaks to me as I watch my students and my word-member struggle with things. As I struggle with things, I rejoice in knowing that Jehovah has a sword. And one day that sword will conquer and lay waste to everything that is hard. And then he'll just turn around and wipe my tears away. Oh, how great the goodness of our God who prepares a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster might even say Leviathan there, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Monster, death and hell. Well, remember, Jacob's in the middle of teaching about Isaiah chapters when he says that I have no doubt he's got this stuff in his mind. Yeah, he's just taught in second, he's by seven and eight, or Isaiah chapters, and then I have called 90 o's and woes chapters because at first there's all this oh, the greatness of our God. And then it

becomes but woe unto and you can see it's this same thing it's this same theme that God is great and as a result he'll get rid of all the bad stuff and the o's are the God is great and the woes are that all the bad stuff he's going to get rid of and we just need to make sure and this is a real lesson you better make sure you're on the right side of that sword. If you are oppressing God's people, you're in trouble and I know people who feel like they're actually doing God's work but in reality they're oppressing God's people. They're fighting against the prophet. They're saying, well the prophet doesn't see the things the right way. This is the right way and please listen to me on this. But when they're doing that, they're really oppressing God's people,

oh, you're gonna end up on the wrong side of that sword. If you're on the wrong side of the prophet, you're on the wrong side of that sword. So then you're on the woes part, and that's exactly what he says in 2nd Nephi 9. Well, you're learning it, and so you think you know what you're doing, but you're not listening to God.

So you get the woes instead of the oes. And I would say that 2nd Nephi 9, which is Jacob's commentary on the Isaiah chapters he's been reading, but I think it's a commentary on this stuff. He has this in his mind, I think firmly, in his mind as he talks about the things that conquering death and hell and so on. Yeah. Kerry, you mentioned earlier the idea of patience. Back in 25 verse 9, it shall be said in that day, low, this is our God, we have waited for him. And he will save us. This is the Lord. We have waited for him. We will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. So there is an element you can see of that Isaiah is saying, be patient, let this plan

play out. Well, you know what that reminds me of Hank. Just had an experience at the pool of Bethesda this last year and I read a talk from President Packer about those who are still waiting for the moving of the water. Oh, it's a beautiful talk about those who take care of those who have disabilities of whatever kind and how they're still waiting for the moving of the water, like the man who waited for 38 years when Jesus came to see him. It's a beautiful talk. If you want to, our listeners want to go find that, but there's a lot of life is waiting, isn't it?

Yeah. I know I, and I know lots of other people in this situation where we have loved ones who are struggling with depression or anxiety or something like that. And you just want them to be healed right now, and it's breaking your heart that they're not healed right now. But to some degree, we're just waiting knowing that at some point that healing happens, that beast of an oppressor is going to meet the Savior's sword and then we'll rejoice. But it's hard to wait. Beautifully put.

Thank you. Speaking of this, we got a wonderful email from Bishop Hansen. He wrote to us and he said, I just wanted to express my gratitude to you and brother, by the way, for the come follow me episodes. Last October, my daughter, Ashlyn Hansen, one of your former students, was killed in a car accident with her best friend, Hayley. I am still devastated and shocked that this is our new life to live without her. I have struggled each and every day to find purpose and meaning and to continue have faith in persevering with life. My wife

and I have four other children to raise and we are doing the best we can in the situation we live in. I talked about serving as bishop and I often fill in adequate. I find so much strength with these podcasts. I just wanted to let you know how grateful I am that you're doing them for all of us. These episodes have really helped me through the darkest year of my life. That really is our hope here is keep waiting. Like you said, Kerry, we just want so badly for now. We want to be reunited with loved ones that have passed away now. And Isaiah 25, 9, this is our God. We have waited. Keep waiting. Keep holding on.

As Mike McClain told us John, hold on. The light will come. Yeah. I can't tell you how many times in the last, like even six months, I've been praying for my, my loved ones and just think, can you please do this now? We need this now and just pleading with all my heart. We really could use this now. And yet what I have to remind myself is I have seen moments that I can rejoice in. I wanted it all better now, but I did see it's a little better. And I need to rejoice in those little better moments while I'm still waiting for the big stuff.

I'll rejoice in those little moments. And I can make it through the however long the weight is because I have full confidence in what Isaiah is teaching me that eventually it may not be the now that I want, but eventually this happens. Eventually the tears will be wiped from their faces. Yeah Well more prayers and thoughts go out to Bishop handsome man. Absolutely and his family Well, should we jump to chapter 28?

Please do Chapter 28 and 29 were we're fairly familiar with these as members of the church because Nephi makes reference to them and they have a lot of ways that we interpret them because of Nephi and Latter-day prophets as applying to the Latter days. And I think those are valid, but I want us to see some other context that I think can help us

get even more out of them. Before we get to the verses over once familiar with, I think we need to read the beginning of chapter 28 because it actually helps us understand these verses. So we'll start in verse 1, woe to the crown of pride to the drunkenness of Ephraim, whose glory, so this is specifically to the northern kingdom, but he's going to then start to talk about the southern kingdom as well, so it's also to the southern kingdom. So that means it's to all the covenant people, and that means it's to me in you. But anyway, woe to the crown of pride to the drunken Zvi from whose glorious beauty

is a fading flower? Right, so now in Israel, you get these beautiful flowers and when the rainy season stops, you've got like two weeks and they are gone. Just gone gone, right? So much so that when I teach at the Jerusalem Center, when the winter semester students leave, there's still wild flowers all over the place.

You've got to like a week and a half until the spring semester students leave, they're still wildflowers all over the place. You've got to like a week and a half until the spring semester students come. And it's a 50, 50 chance whether they'll see any flowers at all. If the rain goes a couple days longer, then they'll see the flowers. If it ends right then, well, we can have too long, no more flowers, right? That's it.

So that's what he's saying. To these drunkards, you're so excited about these things that the world tells you is important. And it's going to fade like a flower, which are on the heads of the fat valleys, those that are overcome with wine. So a lot of imagery about being transient in nature and about drunkenness, keep that in mind. Verse 2, Behold the Lord, hath a mighty and strong one, which is as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, she'll cast down the earth with the hand. So again, this imagery that there will be a servant or God himself is going to come and humble these drunkards that think they're so great.

Verse three, the crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trotten under feet. So transient, what they think is so wonderful is not going to last. Just in case we haven't gotten this, he's going to say it again, and the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, she'll be a fading flower. And as the hasty fruit before the summer, which when that look at the pond at sea, it's well, it is yet in its hand, he eat it up. This is the fruit that comes and you better eat it soon, because with the summer heat, that fruit's not going to last. You know, we have refrigerators, so we don't think of that as much as if you didn't have refrigerators. But if you pick a peach, while it's 90 degrees and you leave it out, it's not so good pretty soon, right?

Right. So, Kerry, this is one of those instances where we talked about with Dr. Comes that he repeats himself. He's a poet. So he just repeated himself twice, said the same thing basically twice. Right. It's the parallelism, yeah. It's parallelism and that also gives emphasis. And it helps us remember, this is important. He wants us to get it. And he's going to keep saying that for a while, he's going to talk about their beauty and the judgment. And verse seven is more about that they they've heard through wine and strong drink. And they're out of the way because a strong drink. I want to look at the very end of verse 7.

They err in vision. They stumble in judgment. Keep those in mind. Now verse 8 is an image that we don't want to have, but Isaiah paints this image really well. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness so that there is no place clean. Now you get that with a bunch of drunkards. They've drunk so much. This is what happens, right?

They drank so much that they just vomited all over the table. I mean, he's thinking about ritually clean It's all ruined now because you all threw up all over yourselves because you're so drunk But that brings us to verse 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are we wined from the milk and drawn from the breast. So this is where we get this milk before meat thing, but once you've had the milk, now you can have meat. So he's saying, I've got all these drunkards who think they know what they're doing and they're these false prophets and false leaders.

They're the people who are supposed to be teaching true doctrine, but they're not. They're concerned with the things of the world. And so really they're drunk. Now, I want to just take a second and say, this is really happening for Judah and Israel. They really have leaders who should be leading them in righteousness, political leaders, spiritual leaders, who should be leading them in righteousness, and they are not, and they get drunk, both on the ideas of the world and on real wine, And so they're leading them into unrighteousness. But we should think about how this happens in our life as well. We choose all sorts of leaders, thought leaders in our lives. They're people from Hollywood who set themselves up as prophets.

They're people in Radio City. They're people on podcasts, not you guys. They're people on TV shows and ivory towers and newspaper columns, all sorts of people that are spewing out filth in the name of the world, wisdom of the world. And we're eating it up. And I want you to think of that image. You're eating up the filth that they're spewing out in their spiritual drunkenness. The tables of vomit and filthiness. Oh man. Yeah. When we listen to these ideas, these ideas that run directly contrary to what the prophets are teaching us, we are eating spiritual vomit. And as a result, we're not the ones who

he's going to teach knowledge and get to understand doctrine. So let's keep going. Verse 10. For precept must be upon precept. Precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line. Hear a little and they're a little. I love the contrast, Kerry. It's kind of wow gross, but the vomit coming out of these people versus a mother's milk in verse 9. Yeah, that's about as

Stark differences you can get You're absolutely right after he says precept upon precept and we're gonna come back to that line upon line verse 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people? To whom he said this is the rest wherewith he may cause the weary to rest, and this is the refreshing, yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them, precept upon, precept, precept upon, precept, line upon, line, line upon, line here, a little and there, a little, that they might go and fall backward and be broken and snared and taken. So look at what we've got in verse 12 and 13. This isn't how we usually think of this. This is saying that there are people who aren't understanding and they get precept, front precept, line upon line and they're stared and fall away from it. And that seems a little odd to us.

Well, let's investigate this a little bit more because this is actually verse 10 and verse 13 are actually incredibly difficult to translate, partially because Isaiah isn't fully using real words. The words that we translate as precept upon precept and line upon line aren't full words. They're like partial words. And we translate it that way because they come from the root for a measuring line that you would measure out and a commandment, okay?

So that's precept upon precept and line upon line. But he doesn't give the full word. So let me just kind of recite it for you a little bit in Hebrew. It goes, it goes, it goes, it goes,

it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes,

it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes sound like gibberish so that when you get this phrase with stammering lips in another tongue, will he speak out of the people? The translation is good. Precept upon precept, line upon line because he's clearly using a form of those words, but it'd be kind of like if I was saying, sept to sept to sept to sept and then I don't know what, I'm tined, I'm dine, right? And you get, okay, I think he's saying preceptive line, but I don't know, and it just sounds stupid. What he seems to be saying is to the people who are spiritually drunk, who have filled themselves up on the wine instead of the milk, and now some opportunity for meat. But Isaiah is teaching them

or what God gives them is gibberish. It's gobbledygook. To them, it makes no sense. Now, remember Isaiah's call was to teach in such a way that those who weren't prepared wouldn't get it, and only those who were prepared would get it. I think this is another version of that. So, to those who are prepared, it actually is coming line upon line, precept upon precept, and Nephi will use it that way and it's a perfect, wonderful, valid interpretation of that. But to those who aren't prepared, it's Kavlikavlisavlisav. It's just gibberish. And they follow away backwards and they're broken and they're snared. It sounds like someone with a stammering lip and another tongue means like a foreign language. It just sounds like a foreign language to them because it makes no sense.

And I think this is so true. When we are steeped in what the world is telling us, the things the prophets say don't make sense. And we say, you're wrong. No, I can't believe you just said that. It just doesn't compute for someone who is full of the spewing spiritual vomit of the world. But to those who are prepared, they say, oh, wait, I get what you're saying. And if people are even more prepared, get even more. And people are more prepared than that, get even more.

And we go bit by bit, line by line, precept upon precept, when we're prepared. And we go backwards the same way when we're not prepared. This is 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14. Paul says, the natural man receive it not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. When you are gorging yourself on the vomit of the world, the Spirit of God is anything

that comes from the Spirit will seem like gibberish, like you said. Now, typically you don't realize you're eating vomit. It's because you're so drunk you don't know. You've listened to the ideas of the world so long. And I think President Nelson, this is part of what he's trying to get at when he said, make more time for Christ. If most of your information is coming from social media or elsewhere, then you need to get more information from Christ. Stop listening to that so much and make more time for Christ. Because when we listen to that so much, we don't realize that now all of our thinking is so colored by the lens of the world that we can't see it or understand it properly, and we don't realize that we're starting to eat spiritual vomit.

Oh, man. What you mentioned, President Nelson, and I loved that statement. Most of the information you get comes from social media. Your ability to feel the spirit will be diminished. And I'm remembering when Maroni, all alone, ultimate single adult is writing to us and saying, you've got to us and saying, you've got to read this letter, my dad sent me. This is Maron I-9.

And he's telling him, it's really bad, son. Things are really bad. The Nephites there, just as bad, they're killing each other. And then he says, may not the things which I've written, grieve the down to death, but they remind him, here's what I want. The last phrase in there, think about Christ and how He visited us and let these things rest in your mind. It's the coolest phrase to me. Let this rest in your mind forever. Instead of, as you've been saying, Kerry, all

this stuff, the world is spewing, the thought leaders that you used. If that's the stuff that's resting in your mind, your ability to fill the spirit will be diminished. See, and we choose our leaders. We choose who we listen to, and we can listen to stuff non-stop these days. We can be listening to something every waking moment, and mostly we are either listening or reading it on our phones. We have so much stuff coming in, and we have to be careful who we're choosing. If it's social media or most sources, it's this spiritual vomit. And I love the line you just gave us from President Nelson where if that's where we're getting most of our stuff and it doesn't matter if you read the scriptures every day, if 99% of what you're getting is

somewhere else, you'll lose the spirit. Well, if you don't have the spirit with you, how can you understand the spiritual things, as Paul said, or as Isaiah said here, right? You just can't. Yeah. In the youth talk once, I just had this thought. I was talking about how we learn line upon, I was doing this with my hands, line upon line,

precept upon precept, how we learn, and turn it upside down. What does Satan do? Lie upon lie, decept upon precept, how we learn, and turn it upside down. What does Satan do? Lie upon lie, decept on decept. That's pretty good. That was my own. What did you say? Lav, Lav, Lav, Lav, Lav.

Yeah. Yeah. He'll lead us carefully down to hell. Lie upon lie, decept on decept. One thing I've noticed so far is Isaiah does not hold back. He thinks the leadership is doing the wrong things. Here's what you remind me of. You remind me of drunks, viewing forth vomit, and the people are eating it up. That's what I think of your leadership. Let me paint a word picture for you here. Yeah. A really bad cafeteria.

That's right. This is the cafeteria you want to avoid, but we all go there. Now that you know that these words line upon line, precept upon precept are drawing on the idea of at least the one about line or drawing upon a line that you use to measure things out and when you're constructing things, right, it's a construction tool. It can add a little bit more meaning to verse 16 and 17. So this is the cure. This is the antidote for the spiritual vomit. Verse 16, therefore, thus saith the Lord, God, behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation, a stone, a tridestone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation, he that believe it shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line,

and righteousness to the plummet, and the hails shall sweep away from the refuge of lies, and the water shall overflow the hiding place. You see what he's saying? He's taking the same cob and sov and saying, it's gibberish to you, but I'm going to use these tools. And for those who are getting it line upon line and precept upon precept, I will lay out, measure out the sure foundation that will allow you, which is truth, and which is Christ, and Christ is truth,

that will allow you to withstand when I send a storm that sweeps away the lies. You're gonna be okay because you're on a sure foundation. I am gonna get rid of the lies. At some point, there will be only truth left, but those who are swimming in the lies are gonna get washed away. Those who have learned line upon line,

precept upon precept will be standing on a sure foundation and they can withstand the storm. So clever as this one of those places where you go, wow Isaiah is good. Isn't it fun to see these phrases that we probably are more familiar with in other books of scripture like, oh, a sure foundation, a foundation where on if men build, they cannot, you can hear heel him and talking to Nephi and Lehigh and to see cornerstone and foundation.

I love how, and this is, I think Hank, isn't it true? One of the comments we're getting is I'm seeing so much of the Book of Mormon here in Isaiah, or I'm seeing other scriptures. Well, and here's a fun little chain for you to go through then. He, Laman, who did he read? He reads Nephi and Jacob. Well, Jacob is the one who talks about a foundation when he does Jacob chapter 6 and so on. He's thinking about covenant and Christ and Isaiah. And so he's drawing his stuff from these chapters, but actually you get into Psalms, I'm talking about a foundation as well, Isaiah often, you'll find a lot of phrases that are in Isaiah

that actually appeared first in the Psalms. And so we get Psalms and Isaiah though, just barely finished Psalms and now we're in the middle of Isaiah. And they are the foundation for many of the images that are in the Book of Mormon. Via, so we get Psalms in Isaiah, via Nephi and Jacob, to all the rest of the Book of Mormon prophets. I'm fascinated with this idea too that the Lord is saying, there's going to come a storm to sweep away the refuge that the leaders have laid out there. Almost like he's sitting just hang on and everything will all that'll be washed away and you'll

be left with the truth. Refuge of lies. Wow. Yeah. Interestingly, and I don't think this is the only interpretation of that, and I've never thought of this until you just said this thing, but as I think about it, when I think about God sending a storm that sweeps things away, I think about, well, Enoch's vision that's in Moses chapter 7, where he talks about God sweeping the earth as with a flood, with the rains that come from above, and well, truth from above, and, and no, right, just this from above, and truth from below. And then President Benson interpreting that as flooding the earth with the Book of Mormon, and then I think, well, what does expose the lives of Christ and give us the truth better

than the Book of Mormon? And so I don't think it's the only. I think current prophets are also another part of that flood. I think those are probably the greatest parts of that flood, is the Book of Mormon and the prophets that we have today. They're the only ways that we stick with the truth instead of being deceived or decepted for going to go with John's phrase. But we'll be decepted by all this garbage that's floating around in the world. So yay for the Book of Mormon and prophets.

Yeah, every six months we have a chance to clean out the refuse, the lies, the vomit around us. But I suspect one day there's some bigger storm that takes the form of the Savior's sword, right? Savior himself. Well, what if we spend just a little bit of time with chapter 29 as well, because there's some verses in here we talk about all the time that I think we can cast a little light on if that's okay. Okay, that sounds great. Let's go to chapter 29 and it starts out with this interesting stuff. Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwells. So there's David City again, right, but it's Jerusalem.

Add ye year to year, let them kill sacrifices, yet I will distress Ariel, and there she'll be heaviness and sorrow, and it shall be unto me as Ariel. So first of all, let's try and figure out what in the world it means by Ariel. There is a Hebrew word, Ariel, and it means hearth, or hearth stone. So it might be saying woe, to your hearth stone.

But this word actually can be translated in a different way. It's in what we call Hebrew, it's construct form, where you take two words and you put them together. And so this might be R-E-L, and R-E-N construct form would be lion and L is God. So this might be lion of God, lion of God, which by the way, David and his line are thought of as the Lion of God. And so that makes a little more sense to me because we're

talking about the city of David and the city where David dwelt. And then he says, year after year, you can have sacrifices, but I'm still going to come and distress you because you're not keeping the covenant, of course. I'm going to bring sorrow because you're not keeping the covenant. But that's really what he's saying. Woe to you. You can do all the sacrifices you want. But when you're not living right, just need distress is still going to come in the form of verse three. And I will camp against thee round about and will lay siege against thee with the mount.

And I will raise fours up against thee. He's telling you, it siege is coming. Now, of course, in some ways, this is God, right? In some ways, this is the Assyrians. The Assyrians. The Assyrians are going to lay siege to Jerusalem. They're definitely going to lay siege to Jerusalem, and people are going to die from famine and then sword and all sorts of other stuff in there.

The Syria doesn't take Jerusalem, but they share come close. They're miraculously spared, but they will lay siege against them. Verse 4, And thou shalt be brought down and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be as of one that hath a familiar spirit out of the dust, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

That's a verse we're familiar with. Right, and how do we typically interpret that? And I think it's a great interpretation. It's the Book of Mormon, yeah. And it makes sense, right? Partially because the golden plates, and Nephi helps us give it this interpretation. He really likes chapter 29.

He draws on it a lot. And so he'll help us with this interpretation, but we think of the gold plates that are literally buried in the ground, and they come out of the ground, and we have the voice of people who have died that speak to us and give us truth. And it sounds familiar because it is truth.

Wonderful, fantastic, absolutely accurate interpretation. But let's ask ourselves, and this is one of the things that I hope that our audience will do all the time. How would Isaiah's listeners have taken it? Again, if we can uncover that original context, this can really help us. So how would they have taken it in his day and in the next generation? So remember what happens when Jerusalem is laid siege. Sinac rib has come through and destroyed every major city and every defense city with walls

or anything in Judah, all of them destroyed. And when Sinacarab destroys, he destroys, he burns like crazy. You guys know Jeff Chadwick, who is a colleague of ours, is an archeology, he's been excavating in Egypt for like 30 years. And he was at a site one time where they hit this ash layer and you do that as you're excavating, if there's been destruction there, you'll hit a layer of ash where you're like, okay, someone burned the city at this point historically. And you can always tell when it's Sinacra because it's more intense, it's a bigger layer,

that guy just burned, right? If you're doing the chronology and you know, the pottery and everything else, you can say, okay, yeah, this is where we expect Sinacra would fit chronologically and here it is. But a guy came to visit this site, and as he's coming, it's another archaeologist who had a lot of experience there,

and as he's coming, and he hasn't been there to see all the stratigraphy in the pottery and know the dating and stuff. So we can't say, okay, this is where she'd expect to see Sinacra, but he just comes up and he sees the ash later and he says, oh, Sinacra voice here. You can just tell that guy was so destructive that literally 2700 years later, an archaeologist can walk up and see the destruction say, oh, Sennacher was here, right? And he was. It was Sennacher if he was right. That's how destructive this guy is. This is this guy that we talked about with Dr. Sears who is coming to Hezekiah with a message of, I've taken

everything else and I'm going to take you. That's exactly right right so this is the guy who has gone through and we're talking about a city in juda this layer of destruction he has gone through and burned those cities like that and he kills all the people around and he does it often in unpleasant ways he takes him to the next city that he's going to tax so we have pictorial evidence of this because he carved in a zone palace after he conquerors azeka he goes to the keyiche and he's laying siege to Lequiche,

and he brings with them prisoners from Azecha outside of the walls while he's laying siege. He's impaling them, he's flaying them, he's cutting their hands and their feet off to scare everyone inside of Lequiche so that they'll just give up. And I would guess he probably did the same thing at Jerusalem, I don't know, it doesn't talk about that. By the time he gets to Jerusalem, so many people have died. And a lot of those cities are never inhabited again. He has just devastated the countryside. So many people have died, and people die in Jerusalem as well.

Now, all of those people are low in the ground. They are low in the ground. They are low in the dust. By the time Hezekiah is getting people in Jerusalem to repent, there are already people in Judah elsewhere who are dying. And those people who are laid in the ground are speaking out of the dust to the people of Jerusalem.

And their deaths, their dying, moldering bodies are telling them, destruction's coming, you keep the covenant, or this is what happens. And I would guess that's how in Hezekiah's day, in Isaiah's day, and in the generations there after that's how they interpreted this, we know about the people it died.

We know this was real, and they speak to us. The Northern Kingdom was scattered and destroyed, and we've got some of the people living here in our city in Jerusalem whose family members were killed in the Northern Kingdom was scattered and destroyed, and we've got some of the people living here in our city in Jerusalem whose family members were killed in the Northern Kingdom or scattered and destroyed and they're speaking to us. So I would say that's the original context for this. It's not different than the Book of Mormon speaking to us. This is the Bible. Being a voice out of the ground speaking to us, and I feel like this year, this verse has been fulfilled

more than ever before. In those terms, I feel like that the Bible and our Israelite ancestors that we're reading about are speaking to us out of the ground with a familiar spirit, out of the dust, they're coming to life again as it were for us, and we're learning the lessons that they would have us learn from their lives. Out of the dust is an important phrase to me, I call my website that almost everything I do that because that's what I want is for us to learn from these

people. I want us, I want us to be able to take the scriptures and have them come out of the dust and become real for us so that we can learn from them, from the Nephites for sure, but also from the people in the Old Testament and the New Testament and the doctrine of Covenant and whatever else, all of these people should be speech low out of the dust and they should speak out of the ground and we should learn from them. I like the word familiar. It took me years to see the word family in there. This is our family, familiar.

We're present day Israel, our family's talking to us. Very good. And there's a cultural element in there as well, that in the law of Moses, they keep getting after them and don't seek for familiar spirits, that you don't want necromancers and so on. Because there's a culture where you try to speak with someone who a family member that you don't want necromancers and so on. Because there's a culture where you try and speak

with someone who a family member that you're familiar with or someone else you're familiar with, but largely family members, some of this comes from Egypt because it's a real thing in Egypt that they would write letters to the dead and ask the dead to come and intervene in their lives and try and have experiences with the dead, right? And God doesn't want that to happen in a false way.

So that's why He says, you should kill necromancers and people who are telling you the witch at Endor that Saul uses. You should not use those people to try and interact with the people who have already died. That's not the way to do it. There's a right way to do it, and this is the right way. So there is a way to have a familiar spirit

or a familiar voice come to you, and it's to read the scriptures. It's to read this and to let them speak to you and teach you and learn the lessons and don't repeat their problems, don't repeat their history. So I hope we're learning from our Israelite ancestors about listening to the wrong voices, about worshiping more than one God, whether that be the ideas of of the world as our false God or whatever it is, we've got to learn from these familiar voices speaking to us out of the dust. Thank you.

I've heard critics of the Book of Mormon talk about a familiar spirit, because one of the ways that phrase is used, which you just articulated, is for like, say aunt's type of a thing, a familiar spirit. And this is using it in a more opposite type way, a positive way. This is our family talking to us.

I just wanted to clarify that because I've heard that as an anti-argument, oh, a familiar spirit, that's a say on us. No, that's not what we're talking about here. Say more, but that's not what we're talking about. Right, so, and that's the thing is that what happens so often is that Satan takes a principle, a good principle of God, and he gives it a satanic perversion, secret

combinations instead of sacred covenants, and so on. That's just Satan's MO. So that's what we have going on here is that there is a way God wants us to learn from our ancestors, and it's this way, from the scriptures, from temple work, from reading family history, that way, not by asking someone who works with Satan to try and contact someone on the other side of the veil. Now, do we think that people from the other side of the veil might come and contact us? Yeah, we've got lots of stories in our church history of God sending people to do that. It's God sending people. It's not us getting some weird person to try and make that interaction themselves.

But the primary way is through the scriptures. And I know I said this on the very first episode of this year with you guys, but I hope that we will think of the Old Testament as our family history. This is our family history. We're reading about their history. Let's learn from it. Let's let them speak to us out of the dust. This has been fantastic, Kerry. Later in 29, am I right in saying, is this Isaiah saying there's going to come an army that thinks they're going to beat us,

but they're going to wake up? Is that versus seven and eight, the multitude of the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition and that distresser shall be as a dream of a night vision? Is that what he's after here? Is that here comes the Assyrian army and they think they're going to win and then they're going to wake up and they're going to find out they weren't winning ever? Yeah, they may have conquered for a moment, but not really. I think you're right. Let's read seven and eight and I think it can be given that historical context and that it can be given

some personal application as well. So as you said, the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all the fight against her in her munition at the stressor, she'll be as a dream of a night vision and it shall be as when an hungry man dream us, and behold the eateth, but he awakeeth, and his soul is empty, or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and behold the drinketh, but he awakeeth, and behold he is faint, and his soul hath appetite. So shall the multitude of all the nations be that fight against Mount Zion. So yes, Assyria will come, and they will feel like they've conquered, conquered and they've got what they wanted and then they're going to find out They don't have what they wanted and it doesn't work like a man who eats and a vision He eats in his dreams and he wakes up and he's like oh wait

That was just a dream That's right and it's gonna happen with Babylon is gonna happen with Rome is gonna happen with all sorts of people They're like hey we conquered we did this and then they going to find it doesn't really get them what they want. And this is true of everyone, not only who fights, and most specifically, anyone who fights against the people of God. And there are people today who are fighting against us in all sorts of ways. And think they're winning. Yeah, that's right. But what they're going to find is that the little victories they think they're getting or the satisfaction that they're hoping to get out of what they're doing doesn't really satisfy them.

And that speaks to a larger principle. There's so many of us, the world tells us this is an important thing and this is how you meet that need. And you've heard this metaphor, I'm sure, but it's like when you climb a ladder and you get to the top of that ladder and you find you've had it on the wrong wall. You cannot satisfy your soul with the things of the world when you try to.

It's like you dreamt that you ate and you wake up and you're still hungry. And I think this is a profound lesson. It is. I have this quote. This is April 2009, how the Robert E. Hales, in seeking to overcome debt and addictive behaviors, we should remember that addiction is the craving of the natural man, and it can never be satisfied. It is an insatiable appetite. When we are addicted, we seek those worldly possessions

or physical pleasures that seem to entice us, but as children of got our deepest hunger and what we should be seeking is what the Lord alone can provide. His love. That's exactly it. Yes, you remember that middle part where he said, the fallen man craves that, read that part again?

He said, we should remember that addiction is the craving of the natural man and it can never be satisfied. It is an insatiable appetite. And I think that's true. Just anything having to do with the fallen man, what the fallen man craves cannot be satiated. It's impossible because it doesn't satisfy the soul. Get it again and again and again. What you crave is to fall in man, but it doesn't actually satisfy any of your real needs. Yeah. And what we need is that which will satisfy it.

Yeah, it's such a deception in that way. What's the other phrase? You can never have enough of what you don't need? Goes back to Jacob. Jacob said almost the exact same thing. Why do you spend money for that which has no worth, nor labor for that which cannot satisfy? And actually he's paraphrasing Isaiah

when he talks about laboring for that, which is of no worth. And I love this image though. I think it's one of the more powerful images I've encountered, this idea of dreaming that you ate and you wake up still hungry. Yeah. That's what too many of us are doing. I don't use this as like a ha ha ha verse, but I often think of it when I hear a critic of the church say the church is falling, it's going down, it's and I think back to this verse, oh you are in a dream where you think you're winning and

Soon you will wake up and find that you weren't ever winning at all Yeah, in fact, I'll use an example and try and be fairly vague because I don't want to pick on someone too much But I know of someone a particular person who doesn't like some of the things I write about the book of Abraham and So has publicly tried to just say things about my scholarship and doesn't have anything real to say to just choose those things that actually aren't true, but repeatedly says, okay, this scholarship's and repeats a series of things that aren't true. And it feels pretty happy in the moment with what she feels like she's accomplished and yet is one of the less happy people that I know overall.

And it makes me sad because she is trying to find happiness and going about it in a way that just doesn't help. And it feels like it's hurting us, it doesn't hurt us, but it gives that quick little adrenaline rush with the crash after. That's what the dream of eating is, it's that. And so often that's what these addictive behaviors and all sorts of other things are.

We feel the need for something and we get the quick adrenaline rush and then we have to wallow in the crash. It's empty. Yeah, in the crash after. And that's what the world gives us. The vomitus ideas of the world give us no real substance to eat.

I had a close friend, decided to leave the church. We stayed friends. He ended up returning, took some years, but he ended up returning. For his comment was, I was empty over there. I thought I would be full, so I came back. It was a story of redemption, but it was the sad story to hear. Yeah, but so glad for him because so many aren't as wise as he was, they feel the emptiness, but they never go back. Bless him for having made that choice. I hope that kind of a story gives people hope. I have a friend whose daughter was wandering for a while. He noticed something in the Book of Mormon that I thought was so interesting that when the angel came in Mosiah 27 to Alma and the four sons of Mosiah, mostly talking to

Alma, he said, your father is prayed with much faith concerning the exact phrase that thou mightest be brought to a knowledge of the truth. It wasn't, he's prayed with much faith concerning the need that, you'd come back to church. It was that you would come to a knowledge of the truth. And my friend used that language in his own prayers. And maybe that was a strange route for your friend, Hank, to go and discover how there's nothing else out there. It's so empty.

But he did, he came to a knowledge of the truth, and I hope people will have hope if they have a loved one out there in that situation. Use what the angel said that Alma prayed for. They'll come to a knowledge of the truth and you don't give up and maybe that prayer will be answered. And they'll come to a knowledge of the truth maybe in a way that you or they don't expect. And maybe this allows us to circle back around to what we were talking about earlier with the idea that Isaiah keeps holding out this promise

that there will be a remnant, and that remnant will come back. And sometimes that's a remnant where you've got all the house of Israel on many air destroyed, but a remnant is reserved and they come back. And sometimes it's a remnant where you've got all the house of Israel on many year destroyed but a remnant is preserved when they come back, and sometimes it's a remnant of me. And hopefully what that means is that the natural man is being killed off in me, and what's left after I've gone through all those painful things that's parrying away the natural man in me, is the remnant that will come back. And the message of Isaiah is God always accepts that remnant back, always.

Love it. Yeah, I doubt there's anyone out there listening who who is fighting on the opposite side, but the story does need to be told, you may feel like you are winning that somehow you're damaging the work and you're going to bring it down. The message of Isaiah 29, 7 and 8 is, no, you are not. No unhullowed hand can stop this work from progressing. What is Joseph Smith say? Call him, he may defame. Moms may assemble. Internet sites may pop up, but the truth of God will go forth, boldly, nobly, and independent. It is winning, and it will continue to win.

Amen. So let's just keep going in chapter 29 a little bit, and we'll just briefly recap this. As it goes on to talk about, in verse 10, the Lord has poured out upon you the Spirit of a deep sleep and has closed your eyes, the prophets and your rulers, the seris-hathy covered. And 29 continues the thoughts of 28. These are the leaders to whom what the Lord is really teaching is gibberish. It's Samaritan lips and a foreign tongue. That's the leaders he's talking to, and so none of this makes sense to them.

Then we get verse 11, and the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is Lord, it's read this, I pray the any sayeth I cannot for it is sealed. And the book is delivered to him that is not learned and say and read this, I pray the any sayeth I am not learned. But then he is able to read it. Now, of course, we know the book of Mormon interpretation of this will happen, and then when Martin Harris goes to Charles Anthen and shows him some characters, we get a fulfillment of this in a couple of years, you're going to review this story again. And I think that's absolutely a correct fulfillment of it. But if we keep going with that original context, I think we can see some more ways this applies

to our life. Because what he is saying, if we keep with what we were talking about in 28 and these verses in 29, what he's saying is that when you are full of the spiritual vomit of the world, and so you feel pretty good about yourself because you know so much and you're full of this spiritual vomit, then all of these true words are sealed. They make no sense to you, but those who are humble enough to know that they need to learn from God, it will make sense to them. And you remember when we were talking about 2nd Nephi 9 and the O's and woes, one of

the woes is woe unto the learned, because he thinks he knows what he's doing. They think they're wise, but to be learned is good if you harken to the councils of God. I think again that Jacob had these verses in mind. This is the learned, can't learn, and the one who's not learned, it does learn. So again, Jacob just has another way of saying what Isaiah is here.

I think it's just more commentary in Isaiah. So I really do think that Jacob is drying on 28 and 29 as he talks about this. In my commentary, I didn't talk about that. I wish I would have done that as it may be in the next edition. This is important stuff. And again, I didn't talk about that. I wish I would have done that as it may be in the next edition. This is important stuff. And again, I think we can understand that Book of Mormon interpretation, but we can apply

to ourselves better if we think of that original context as well, that, huh, which one am I? Because obviously I'm not Charles Anton, and I'm not Joseph Smith. But I might be some of the folks in Israel who think they know what they're talking about. Let's be clear, I mean, I have a PhD in this stuff. I'm in the at-risk category according to Jacob. I should really stop and ask myself. Am I so sure I know what I'm talking about that I don't listen to the prophet,

that I don't listen to the Spirit, that it's sealed to me, and I can't learn precept upon precept, line upon line, it's gibberish to me,, that it's sealed to me, and I can't learn, precept upon precept, line upon line, it's gibberish to me, where am I humble enough to say, you know what, I'm gonna learn whatever God's gonna teach me today. And if it goes against what I thought, and if it goes against my training, I'm still gonna learn from God.

And does it go against what the world is saying to me? I'm still gonna learn from God. Those are some important lessons we can learn from this. And when we are learning that way, then we can avoid verse 13 and we can move to verse 14. Verse 13 is wherefore the Lord said, for as much as this people draw near to me with their mouth and with their lips do on to me,

but it removed their heart far from me. And their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Doesn't that fit in so perfectly with what we've been talking about? So many people who have been so influenced by what the world teaches. There are a thousand ways this can be manifest, but we're saying that we're following Christ, and probably in their hearts they think they're following Christ, but not really, because what they're really doing is their heart has been given to the ideas

of the world. So we want to avoid being those people and instead be what we see in verse 14. Therefore, will I proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work in a wonder? Now, we don't want to be the further wisdom of the wise, mental parish and the understanding of their prudence, she'll be hid. We want to be part of the marvelous work in the wonder, which we know one very real specific and maybe most important fulfillment of that is the Book of Mormon. But it's any truth that is being taught by God.

It's any line upon line, precept upon precept that the spiritually sensitive can understand. That's the marvelous work. And it is going forth and we want to be part of it. That's the gathering of Israel. That's how it happens. We want to be part of what President Nelson tells us is the most important cause on Earth is we want to be this marvelous work to get people to quit listening to the world, quit getting most of your information from social media and online sources and whatever else, and make more time for Christ.

So you can understand the things by the spirit. So they make sense to you instead of foolishness to you. They're not gibberish to you. And then we can really come under Christ. Oh, I wish we could all be doing better at that. Yeah. I've already said it once, but I'm going to say it again because it bears repeating, first Corinthians 2, the natural man, receiveeth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolish, foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

It's exactly what we're talking about here. It's not that they won't hear them. There's not even a comprehension. Yeah, it's beyond their ability to understand. It's a foreign-tongue or a stammering lift. Now, let's jump to another part of Isaiah that I'm sure you'll cover later, but let's just allude to it. When I kind of divide chapters of Isaiah and say these chapters about this and so on,

I always put chapter 58 as a turning point. And it's because this is where they start to really keep the Sabbath. They're really gonna keep the fast, those kinds of things. But it's in chapter 58 where he says, my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways. That's the reason for this.

What God is trying to teach us is beyond our natural capacity to understand. And the only way we can understand it is if we have the Spirit with us, because we're just plain as mortal beings, we're not capable of it. You can only understand it if the Spirit is with you, and that's why it's foolishness unto you, or it's cobblacob, sobletsob, it's... Right? Because our spiritual vomit made us richly unclean so we can't have this the spirit with us if the spirit's not with you

Things that are beyond your ability to understand are going to remain beyond your ability to understand But if the spirit is with you Your capacity is increased and you can understand line-up online precept upon precept and I think with everything we've been saying here I love the way President Nelson said, he's not saying don't be aware, we're not hiding away from the world. You know what's going on in the world, but if most of your information, if your reliance is on that, instead of your relying on Christ and focusing on Christ, and what else did President Nelson say, the your happiness has more to do with the focus of your lives than the circumstances of your lives? Yes.

We're going to be in the world, but we're not going to be of it. We're going to be aware, but our focus and our reliance and our devotion, our loyalty is going to be to Christ. Amen. Section 93, both of you will know this. The glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, light and truth. This is verse 37, light and truth forsake that evil one. So the more you get involved in light and truth, the less desirable the vomit of the world is for you. It's just not, it becomes less and less attractive. He says, but the wicked one, comeeth, this is verse 39, and take eth away light and truth through disobedience. None of us is immune. The light and truth that we have can be taken away through disobedience. If we stop listening, if we pick up a new

vomit voice and start filling our life with it, then the things of God that used to seem so beautiful to us will all of a sudden be gibberish, be foolishness. It's so true. And when you say that, I think of, I remember Wendy Watson-Neltsin, sister-neltsin, talking about President Nelson and things that she saw on him. And I think that she was saying they were even heightened a little bit when he became profit, but that she'd saw in him anyway. And one of them was that he can't stand contention. And if there's even a little bit of contention on the TV has to turn it off. And I think that

ties in with his talk where he recently told us, please get rid of contention in your lives. And I actually have seen it. I've just been able to see President Nelson and person a little bit where some people were talking with them and there was some teenagers. They kind of teased each other a little bit and you could tell he just, like he just moved on. He didn't want to be part of that teasing. Even though it was gentle and not bad, it was just enough contention.

He just wanted to have nothing to do with that. I think that's an example of this idea where he's so full of light that he forstakes stuff that many of us would feel okay about. And I found that even with myself. Shows that I used to think're fine in terms of violence. I hope that I'm continually becoming a little bit more godly. There are things that I thought were fine a few years ago

that I look at, I'm like, oh my gosh, turn that off. I can't stand that. But as you said, the opposite of that happens as well. And so again, we get these cohesive units. So we talked about 24 through 27. I'd say 28 through 30, you can make some an argument for after that, but at least 28 through 30, you get this same thing. You get this forsake the garbage of the world and only turn to God. And if you don't, then the things of God are going to seem like garbage to you, which is exactly what you just read in section 93, I think, is that exact same thing. So there's some wonderful verses in chapter 30 that I think highlight the same thing.

They keep talking about the same themes. These three chapters just have the same theme said in lots of different ways. Well, Samuel the laymanite just talks about if a prophet comes among you and says this, says, do whatever your heart desires. You'll hold him up. You'll say he's a prophet. You'll feed him. You'll give him, you'll clothe him in the finest stuff. But if a prophet comes and tells you about your sins,

you'll say he's a false proct and everything. And it's footnoted here. Let's do nine and 10. This is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord. And there's a difference between will not not. This is choosing not, right? Good. And do you hear the echoes of chapter 28 in there?

Right? Because remember law, that commandment, that line, right? Because the root for Coven is the commandment, right? So you've got this idea that they are still choosing not to listen to what God's trying to teach them line-up on line-preserved upon-preserved. So anyway, sorry, keep going. Oh, thank you. Yes. So verse 10, which say to the seers, see not. And what is the seer? One who sees. Stop doing that. Stop being what you are. Which say to the seers, see not. and to the prophets, prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things. Prophecy deceits. And that is what Helaman was saying.

If a prophet comes among you and says this, it says, do whatever your heart desires. I think that's what Sammy the Lamanite says. Oh, I like this guy. That's your thought leader right there, right Carrie? But if a profit comes and warns you about your sins, you'll want to cast amounts what Sam and Laytonite says. So I like Isaiah 30. What do you think are smooth things? Things that aren't too hard, things that you're doing kind of all as well and Zine, you're fine. Don't worry about it. Well, that's the smoothest, easiest thing ever. Okay, I am what I am.

Do you remember when King A. Hab wanted to go to battle and Jehovah's the Fat was with him, and they say, well, let's get some profits to tell us. And so they get all these profits who are telling him, yeah, go do it, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great. Jehovah's the Fessus, wait, isn't there a profit of Jehovah around?

And A. Hab says, yeah, there's this guy, McCoy, but I don't like him. He always says bad stuff about him. So I don't call him in. That's exactly what we're talking about. He wanted someone who would tell him what he wanted to hear. He didn't want someone who would tell him, okay, that's not so good. We love you, but you're still going to have to keep the commandments kind of a thing. I think we see that in our day. And that gets to where you're saying to the seer, don't see into the prophet, don't prophesy. And even what we get in verse

11 and 12, get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One to visceral to cease from before us. Wherefore thus saith the Lord of Israel because you despise the word and trust and repression and forverseness and stay there on. Therefore this iniquity will be too as a breach ready to fall. It's going to come down. You're going to fall because of this. And note the progression. You lie and you want these false prophets, these false thought leaders. And then, because of what you believe from them, you don't want to hear from real prophets and seers.

And then, you don't even want Christ. You don't want the Holy One of Israel. That's the progression. Spend too much of your time getting your information from non-Christ sources and pretty soon you don't want Christ sources and then you don't want Christ. And that's a bad place to be. And that's a lie upon lie, decept upon decept kind of progression.

You know? Exactly. You're dwindling in unbelief. Yeah, you're going carefully down to hell, type of missing. That's profoundly said. Listen to this from April, 2014, General Conference, Elder Holland, sadly enough, my young friends, it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who don't demand much. Comfortable gods, smooth gods, who not only don't rock the boat, they don't even row it. Gods who pat us on the head make us giggle and tell us to run along and pick miracles. Talk about man creating God in his own image.

Kare, you said earlier that there are people who say, oh Jesus has said, love everyone, Jesus said this. And sometimes I think, did you read the New Testament? Jesus has standards. He has boundaries and standards that are so difficult to reach about forgiveness, about morality, and just a little one. If you love me, keep my commandments. That was kind

of one that gets tossed out the window because Jesus said, love everyone. Yes, Jesus said, love everyone, but Jesus said a lot more than that. He had a lot more to say than that. And if we love God, we're concerned about his commandments. It's tough isn't it Hank and Carriots? I think it was Elder Christopherson who said, well God doesn't want any of us back just the way we are. That's right. He wants us better. That's exactly right. He doesn't want us to be satisfied with just the way we are. Think about it. Do you want a parent or do you want a coach? Let's use a coaching analogy. Do you want a coach who just says, okay? You're good enough. You're too great. We don't need a practice. We're not gonna help you reach greater potential

You're good the way you are right no one wants that and as you say all of this about the standards And I don't know that they've read the New Testament and again this helps me circle back around to some what we were talking about earlier I've heard lots of people who say well the God of the Old Testament is a God of justice and the God of the New Testament is a God of mercy. And I think you didn't read either book. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What in the world?

You chose like two verses, the two verses you didn't like in the Old Testament and two verses you did like in the New Testament because you've got plenty of both in both. And as we said earlier, we want both the justice and the mercy, because the justice gets rid of those who are oppressing us unjustly. And the mercy makes it so that if we're trying to keep the covenant, we're going to be okay.

That's back to Alma telling Coriantin, let his justice and his mercy and his long suffering have full sway in your heart, get the whole picture of all of those attributes that he has. And look at all of this. And it's a rigorous gospel. What we're being asked to do is we can't do it without leaning on Christ. Yeah, with that trusted in his sword. Kerry, this has been a fantastic day. I think this is the fourth time you've been on our podcast. Thank you for not tiring. You're getting desperate. Yes. I can tell you're getting desperate. We're fortunate. We would encourage everyone to go back and listen to some of Kerry's previous episodes. They're

just wonderful. They really are. At the end of this episode, Kerry, why don't we just do kind of major takeaways from just Isaiah in general. I know how much you love Isaiah. And I know how much a lot of our listeners don't love Isaiah. But they're going to love them by the end of this year. They want to. So let's talk major takeaways from not only this section, but Isaiah in general. What do you love about him?

And get our listeners pumped up to study Isaiah. I'm happy to do that. In fact, that's why I titled my commentary learning to love Isaiah. That's what I want. I want them not just to study it, which we're commanded to do or to search their words. I want us to love Isaiah.

And I think that really between podcasts like yours and all the tools and resources that are out there to help people. I think people are going to be loving Isaiah by the time we're done with this. Maybe a couple thoughts that can help with that. As I've studied Isaiah, and sometimes I get lost in the little thicket

when you're doing a verse by verse commentary, you're looking at each little teeny verse, and every now and then I'd stop and say, okay, let's look at big picture. Let's look at how do these verses fit together? How do these chapters fit together? How does the book fit together? In doing that, I actually discovered a chiasmus. It's a chiasmus. I don't think anyone had ever seen before. I think my commentary is the first place it's published

that goes from chapter 40 to chapter 57. Wow. A huge chiasmus. And the central chapter, so you know, in a chiasmus, the central point is kind of the most important point. And the central chapters are actually the ones Nephi loves, this chapter 48 and 49. And these chapters, and the chiasmus as a whole,

is about covenant and redemption. And the central chapters there are that you're in trouble if you don't make and keep a covenant and get redeemed, but if you do make and keep a covenant, God will send servants and especially a servant that will redeem you. And that's kind of the overarching theme of that chiasmosis that the covenant's available to everybody, but you have to make that covenant and do your best to keep it

and then redemption is available. And as I realized that that was the center of that kiasmus. I started to look for what are the major themes of Isaiah and I noticed it's redemption. And then recently I was actually working on a little booklet that I think should come out sometime in the next year with covenant communications on the covenant. A small booklet where I'm trying to focus on how do we recognize the blessings that are promised to Israel like President Nelson asked us to and what is that teach us about what the covenant path actually looks like. And as part of that, I did an exercise. You remember just a little while ago, I said that the two major phrases that alert us about this relationship with God that's created in the covenant and that's the primary purpose

of the covenant is to have that relationship with God. The two major phrases are that God is our God and we are His people. So I started to look for every time of the scriptures that it talked about, His people, or My people. Say, either a prophet saying His people or God or Christ saying My people,

and started to just discuss what are the promises that are in there? And if I saw the same promise, you know, more than once, then I'd put that reference again. And again, the longest one, the one that had the most references was the phrase redeem. And it's the phrase that Isaiah, especially in Isaiah, but it's true all throughout the scriptures, but especially in Isaiah, God wants to redeem us. And he will preserve us and redeem us. And that's why he sends his son, and it's why he made a covenant. And it's why he's doing everything he does because

he wants to redeem us so that we can come back to be with him as we said in a higher state. But we can have that closer relationship with him because we've been redeemed. And if you look for that theme in Isaiah, the theme of God sending servants to help us be redeemed and that he will never stop working with us until we are redeemed and that when we receive that redemption, we will receive joy. If you look for that theme, you'll find it all over in Isaiah. That there is more about praising and joy in Isaiah

than I would have guessed before I started really studying Isaiah, but it's all over the Isaiah. There is more about praising and joy in Isaiah than I would have guessed before I started really studying Isaiah, but it's all over the place. There's also plenty about warning of consequences if you don't repent, but there's plenty about joy, but it's the joy of the redeemed as we read here because we wait, we wait it on Christ because we kept the covenant. We did what we needed to and and then that redemption came, which brought joy with it. And if we'll look for those themes, I think we'll have Isaiah unfold to us in a joyful way. In fact, Nephi says,

one of the reasons he gives us the words of Isaiah is because he wants us to not only delight in them, but delight for all men. We really will delight for everyone because we see the joy and the redemption that's available for all of us. And that's what Isaiah is about. Yeah.

Kerry, wouldn't you say also to be patient? You're not going to get every word the first time through. We have been doing this a long time. Just keep coming back to Isaiah. Yeah. So maybe I'll talk a little bit about the process of writing this commentary. As I was writing it, I did it over a period of years because it takes a long time, right? So like I do maybe a chapter and then come back and so on.

I was fortunate at our department here at the time, Dana Pike. I went to him and I said, I'm working on this commentary and I really think I could do it better if I was teaching the class at the same time. So for the couple of years, I was working on that. Unfortunately, that got me into this rotation where I teach it regularly now. I'm very happy about that. But for the years I was working on it, Unfortunately, that got me into this rotation where I teach it regularly now. I'm very happy about that. But for the years I was working on it,

I was teaching as well so that I could take the stuff I was learning as I wrote the commentary into the classroom. And then I would learn together with my students and see what they understood and what they did. And I'd bring it back and incorporate it into the commentary. But what I found is that each time I went through it, because that helped me to go through each chapter again and

again because I was teaching it this semester and again the next semester and again the next. There were more things that I was learning. I learned something different each time. But what's more, I would say, right down your notes, I'll just confess that as we were doing this together, I was reading, and my commentary has the chapter or the verses on one side and the commentary on another, and the Jason column. I was reading from the verses here, but I was doing it because I know there are tons of things that I once learned that I

don't remember now, but I wrote them down in here. So I've got, this was my cheat sheet as we're going through, right? My own commentary. I have to look at what I said. In fact, I've heard people read something about Isaiah, and I was like, that's really good. And I've gone up and asked them, where did you get that from? That's your commentary. Oh, that was me. Good. Well, that must have been inspired that day. But there's so much in here.

There's no way you can get it all and one go through. And there's no way you can remember it all. So right down what you learn, but also look to learn something new each time. And be happy with whatever you did learn, even if you only understood a little teeny bit of a verse this time, that's fine. Next time you'll get some more, next time some more. If you got something good out of it, that's great. And write it down so you can remember it next time.

That's your line upon line right there. Yeah, it is. Hey, I have a quick question. Carrie, you talked about the, you will be my God. And I was just thinking, some of Jesus' the resurrected Christ's first word to Mary. I ascended to my father and your father and to my God and your God.

Was that the same kind of a thing happening there? I think so. I think because again, what that phrase designates is the special relationship. So, there's a different relationship for covenant holders than there is for non-covenant holders. That's why we are His people and He's our God because we created formally and officially that relationship and once we're in that relationship with each other, it just kind of keeps increasing, just like any relationship you have with your spouse.

The more time you spend with each other and that close relationship, the more you become like each other, the more you understand each other, the closer you draw to each other. So it denotes a relationship, but Christ has an even greater relationship. And so I think that's what he's saying there. He is your God, Mary.

You're a covenant person. You've got that relationship with him. He's my God too, and I'm not saying our God because my relationship with him. He's my God too, and I'm not saying our God because my relationship with him is different than yours. But note what he had just prayed for a few days before that in chapter 17, the great intercessory prayer, just right before he dies. He prays that the relationship he has with God, everyone will be able to enjoy. He basically, after the book of John teaches,

he teaches in almost every chapter of the Book of John something about his relationship with God. You'll find, I think there are only two chapters where you won't find some verses where Christ talks about his relationship with God. But there at the end, he invites us into that relationship. And so when he talks to Mary, there's still a difference between the relationship, but it doesn't have to stay that way. At some point, we'll have the same relationship with God that Christ does because of Christ. Love it.

And I was going to comment too that that theme of redemption, I love to point out we're trying to figure out what is the phrase used to describe the plan of salvation most in the Book of Mormon, and it's the plan of redemption. And then I think the next one is plan of happiness. So it's that redemption and joy. And students love the plan of happiness. When I ask them, what's your favorite?

They love plan of happiness. And then when you read, who used the phrase plan of redemption, it's the most, Alma and the sons of Mosaic, who experienced a being knocked flat and I think, oh, that's pretty cool how they would focus on their redemption part of it. And I guess salvation, saviors is in there as well, but I just always liked that. Yeah, but they certainly knew and understood that they needed redemption. Yeah, and I would agree with you. It's the major theme and Then it leads to happiness or joy

absolutely Thank you, Dr. Mulestein for being with us again I actually want to finish today by reading from the our come follow me manual I think it's just has a wonderful paragraph in this week's lesson. It says Isaiah had a message of hope Even though the prophesied destructions eventually did come upon these kingdoms, Isaiah foresaw a chance for restoration and renewal. The Lord would invite his people to return to him. He would make the parched ground become a pool and the thirsty land spring of water.

He would perform a marvelous work and wonder, Restoring to Israel, the blessings he had promised them. Neither Isaiah nor anyone else alive at that time lived to see this marvelous work, but we are seeing its ultimate fulfillment today. In fact, we are part of it. We want to thank Dr. Kerry Mule, Steve, for being with us again today. This won't be the last time we see him. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sonson and our sponsors, David and Verla Sonson. And we hope all of you will join us next week. We have another lesson on Isaiah coming up on Follow Him. Thank you.