Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Jacob 1-4 Part 2 • Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner • Apr 1 to Apr 7 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner continues to examine Jacob's admonition to his people, highlighting their greater iniquities compared to the Lamanites, emphasizing the importance of righteousness in family relationships, and addressing misconceptions about skin color and righteousness, while also praising the role of righteous men. Dr. Gardner also adds insights on forgiveness in abusive relationships and the importance of prioritizing love and service within our homes.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPThttps://tinyurl.com/podcastBM14ENDR. BARBARA MORGAN GARDNERInstagram: https://tinyurl.com/GroundedPodcastYouTube: https://tinyurl.com/GroundedPodcastYouTubePodcast: https://tinyurl.com/GroundedPodcastAudio YOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/bhdORm7bcIQALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterApple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/followHIMappleInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast00:00 Part II–Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner00:40 Dr. Gardner shares a story about training military chaplains 02:40 Lyndon Robinson story of World War II and a priesthood blessing04:33 Dr. Gardner shares a story about a dollar06:02 President Oaks and a man stuck by a boulder08:16 Jacob 2:22-27 - A crime worse than pride11:43 Jacob 31-35 - Jacob has heard the cries of wives and daughters13:25 Elder Holland and “A Place No More for the Enemy of My Soul”16:01 Jacob 3:9 - Misunderstandings about righteousness and skin color19:48 President Nelson and Elder Kearon on abuse23:01 Jacob 3:2 - Remember hope in Christ amidst abuse24:25 What forgiveness is and isn't26:31 President Nelson and love and care of wife28:50 Keeping our spouse’s name safe29:40 Jacob 4:3 - Joy and Adam and Eve’s fall forward33:18 President Nelson, President Eyring and President Oaks: Eve’s importance36:27 Jacob 4:11-12 The Atonement of Jesus is the answer38:32 Jacob 4:11 - Jacob answers those who feel hopeless45:34 Women in leadership48:28 End of Part II– Dr. Barbara Morgan GardnerThanks to the follow HIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner, Jacob chapters one through four. Barbara, I'm looking at Jacob 2.17. Think of your brother and like unto yourselves and be familiar. I always ask my students, what's the word inside of familiar? It's family. Be family and that's what you're describing. Hank, it was Aislinn Dyer that said something I'll never forget on a previous podcast where she said, an adult is someone who contributes more than he consumes. Or she contributes

more than she consumes. And I thought, whoa, that's that outward thinking you're talking about. Hank and John, I remember being at a chaplaincy meeting. It was all chaplains in the church. We were having a training from the head chaplain of the Air Force. She came and she said, you know, I have a question. I would love for you to teach me. Help me understand what goes on here. And she said, it's the craziest thing with Latter-day Saint chaplains, that it doesn't matter if it's an enemy or a friend. Our LDS chaplains serve them both as if they are their brothers and sisters. And she said, can you help me understand that?

What is it about your teachings? What is it about your religion that makes that such an outstanding element of your Latter-day Saint chaplains? We all were sitting in that auditorium in the administration building of the church, and I think we all just thought to ourselves, because we are. We do take care of each other. And to me, it was so interesting to see this head chaplain not be able to really put her teeth into why this was so real for us. Those chaplains and those people that are serving in those areas of the world where they're seeing such great sorrow and warfare and things, the reality was they did see each other

as brothers and sisters and they were willing to give their lives for their enemy or for their friend because they really were all family, as you're saying, John. They were familiar with all and free with their substance, free with their prayers, free with their blessings, free with anything they could offer because they really did see each other as brothers and sisters, even on the battlefield. It's an incredible complement from this woman in that situation. John, Barb, you'll both remember that so many of the Savior's parables are about this very issue of pride and riches. The parable of the laborers in the vineyard, how come they got more than me? How come they even got the same as me? You've esteemed them like unto us. Or the deceitfulness of riches, parable

of the sower, the deceitfulness of riches. What's the lie of money? The prodigal son is the idea of comparing. And that's what you were saying in verse 13 and President Benson and C.S. Lewis about, I've got more than you and the labor's in a vineyard. I just love that because they all got paid the same and everything was fine until they looked sideways Hey, what did you get? Yeah. Hey, what did you get? And then everything went south? now we have a listener named Lyndon Robison who sent me a Book that he wrote he quoted this experience of Wilson P law Itzen in World War two

He said we were fighting in the Battle of the Bulge near the town of Ammonious Belgium by that time the Germans were on the defensive. We had just succeeded in cutting off for surrounding a sector of the German line They were surrendering in large numbers as we were disarming the soldiers One of them said to me in broken English would you know if there are any Mormon soldiers in your unit? I responded. Yes. I'm a Mormon. He asked, do you have the priesthood? Yes, I do, I answered. I was married in the temple. Would you be so kind to come with me to that shell hole over there? And administered my friend. He was pretty shaken up and badly wounded. Of course, I can send it to go. We found his friend was in bad condition, suffering much pain. Then

the two of us, who a few short hours before had been on opposite sides in the bitter struggle, knelt down and had ministered to the wounded lad. As we did so, I felt the spirit of the Lord very strongly. I know that the feeling was shared by them too. As we finished, the litter bearers were there. We lifted the broken body to the stretcher, then our ways parted. The wounded boy was taken to the hospital. The German soldier sent back with the other prisoners. And I went on with my other duties." But that brother-sister thing, that's interesting. The chaplain that you were talking about, Barbara, would ask that question. And we're like, we actually use that as a title. We've

been drumming into each other since primary. You're my brothers and sisters. It was so obvious. We all kind of looked at each other like he is. It was so ingrained in us that that was the answer. It's almost as if you see them as family. Yeah, almost as if. This is a cheesy story, but I remember going to elementary school, being the first grade of my brother in the second grade and a year older than I am. And I remember my parents would give us, you know, a dollar to get a lunch once in a million years, it feels like. But I remember

one time my parents gave me a dollar for lunch and I put it in my pocket. We were walking along and my brother said to me, would you mind if I traded you your dollar for 100 pennies? And you know, a lot of people would think, well, he wants to get rid of his 100 pennies and he wants your dollar. But with him, it was the exact opposite. And I knew it even in the moment, although at the time I didn't really know what he was doing. But I said, sure. And I gave him my dollar and he had counted meticulously.

He's now an accountant, but he had counted meticulously his 100 pennies and he put it into my pocket. And he said, I'm just afraid that you might lose your dollar and you're less likely to lose a dollar if you have 100 pennies. Oh. It was just such a tender little brother, you know, second grade, first grader thing to do. But I think about it, in his very tender, sweet brother mind, he was trying to keep his little sister from not having lunch that day. I think brothers and sisters, when we do things right, you know, President Benson, we've talked a lot about him today.

He talks about how we should be each other's best friends. What a beautiful thing it is when we really can see each other and we're motivated in our families to be each other's best friends, but then also to see other people as brothers and sisters. There's one story that I want to share with President Oaks. And I think that this helps as well to understand this idea of motivation.

It's so good. And you guys may remember the story of Aaron Ralston. It's the story of the man who was stuck underneath a rock. He says, few will have the kind of crisis that motivated Aaron Ralston. But his experience provides a valuable lesson about developing desires. And here's the story. He says, well, Ralston was hiking in a remote canyon in southern Utah, and 800 pound rock shifted suddenly and trapped his right arm. For five lonely days, he struggled to free himself. When he was about to give up and accept death, he had a vision of a three-year-old boy running towards him and being scooped up with his left arm. Understanding this as a vision of his future son and an assurance that he could still live,

Ralston summoned the courage and took drastic action to save his life before his strength ran out. He broke the two bones in his trapped right arm and then used the knife in his multi-tool to cut off that arm. He then summoned the strength to hike five miles for help. And then President Oaks says, what an example of the power of an overwhelming desire. When we have a vision of what we can become, our desires and our powers to act increase enormously. For me, this is what this is talking about. The motivation is to serve other people. The motivation for this Ralston is he sees this boy and he is the father and he sees his son. He'll do anything for him. That's the atonement of Jesus Christ at his finest,

which Jacob of course knows. I would imagine in our lives we know of people and hopefully we are the same way that we are willing to give what it takes to bring people back to the kingdom of God. We're willing to do whatever it takes to save our brothers and sisters because they are our brothers and sisters. Barb, John, honestly, we could talk about this forever. I'm thinking of talks from Elder Uchtdorf, the greatest among you, continuing patience, pride in the priesthood. I could quote those whole talks. There is so much available to us that if we really wanted to address this issue in our hearts, it's there.

The teachings, the doctrine, the stories, the helps, it's there. It's never been easier than it is right now with our little library on our phone. It's crazy Yeah, let's move forward. Isn't this where Jacob says hey if pride was your only problem I actually would feel pretty good. We could have a closing prayer and go home more to talk about Barb. Where should we go? You're referring to verse 22 I think of chapter 2 or he says now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride.

And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you. Like, thank you, that's so warming and thoughtful and kind. But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord, this people begin to wax in iniquity. They understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms." And then he brings in this point, because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon his son. So you're not understanding the scriptures well. There is a part of the scriptures that talks about David and

Solomon is what he's talking about. He's going to explain this to us. Behold, David and Solomon, Jacob teaches, truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I, the Lord God, will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. He's saying, you've read the scriptures and the scriptures do teach of David and Solomon that they did have many wives, but he says, you're not getting the point here.

The point that we're dealing with is, yes, from time to time, the Lord has commanded people to have more than one wife. But David and Solomon, when they did so, they were going against the teachings of the Lord in that they put their own lust and they put their own desires above that of the Lord. And again, that's where we're starting to get into this wickedness. It's they're putting their will in front of God's will. He explains it a little bit more, I think, as we continue on in verse 27. Wherefore, my brethren, hear me and hearken to the word of the Lord. For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife, and concubines he shall have none.

For I the Lord God delight in the chastity of women, and whoredoms are an abomination before me, thus saith the Lord of hosts. Wherefore this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of hosts, or curse it be the land for their sake." And then here's the explanation. For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seat unto me, I will command my people, otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." In other words, the foundational doctrine of family is husband and wife, one man, one woman. That's the doctrine behind it. We have an understanding that this is how God continually lives His laws, and

this is how families are on the earth. But there are occasional exceptions and we talk about policies and procedures and applications. The doctrine doesn't change, the plan of salvation doesn't change, the reality of eternal family and the covenant relationship between a husband and a wife does not change. But there is a policy from time to time where the Lord has commanded for very specific individuals during a very specific time to enter into what we often talk about as polygamy or plurality of wives. There are a few instances, but very rare, and the Lord just gives us one explanation. We typically don't get the why, but in this case, we get one why, and it is to bring seed. And He's saying, that was for them their time of old, that was for Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, but it is not for you.

They're entering into this and He's saying, you have not been commanded of God to do this. You have been commanded of God to have one wife. You have been commanded of God to care for the chastity of your women and you are not doing that and therefore I am very concerned for you and you are likely under the condemnation. And then I love in verse 31, 32 and 33 where he says, I have seen the sorrow and heard the mourning of your daughters. And then verse 32, the cries of their fair daughters. And then verse 33, for they shall not lead away

captive their daughters. For me, it's a little bit sensitive, obviously, as a woman, as I'm seeing some of these things happen, but I know it's sensitive for you both as well as I know you. And I know the most righteous men in my life could get very tender about this care for God's daughters. My father, my husband, my brothers, it's about the daughters. Somehow in all

the selfishness and the pride of their hearts and the desires for their lusts, they have forgotten the daughters of God and they are very prideful and they're very selfish. He's putting them on the spot. It's fascinating in verse 35 where he says, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites. The Lamanites are supposed to be the wicked ones. This isn't like thousands of years later. These are their brothers and their cousins and he's calling his own people on the carpet. Ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. You have broken the hearts of your tender wives, you have lost the confidence of your children because of your bad examples before them, and the sobbing of their hearts ascend up to God against you because of the strictness of the words of God which cometh down against you. Many hearts died pierced with deep wounds." This is a very,

very hard and very difficult topic for, I'm sure, Jacob to be discussing, but at the same time, it's like his brother Nephi, he is a protector. He is protecting society, he is leaning towards righteousness, and his desire is to have peace, and his desire is to have joy, and it is not happening because of the loss of chastity among these people. These are some heavy verses and very important verses. In verse 23, I'm thinking of John Hilton, our friend, did a talk years ago about excuses, and he used some of these great verses in here. Instead of trying to discover the Word of God, they're going to the Word of God to find excuses to do what David and Solomon did. Barb, there's yet another talk. We're giving so many assignments for talks this week. This one's called Place No More for the Enemy of My Soul, Jeffrey R. Holland, 2010.

He says, Why is lust such a deadly sin? Well, in addition to the completely spirit destroying impact it has on our souls, I think it is a sin because it defiles the highest and holiest relationship God has given us in mortality, the love that a man and a woman have for each other, and the desire that couple has to bring children into a family intended to be forever. Someone said once that true love must include the idea of permanence. True love endures. But lust changes as quickly as it can turn a pornographic page or glance at yet another potential object for gratification walking by, male or female. True love we are absolutely giddy about, as I am about Sister Holland.

We shout it from the rooftops. But lust is characterized by shame and stealth and is almost pathologically clandestine. The later and darker the hour, the better, with a double bolted door, just in case. Love makes us instinctively reach out to God and other people. Lust, on the other hand, is anything but godly and celebrates self-indulgence. Love comes with open hands and open heart. Lust comes only with an open appetite. Again, place no more for the enemy of my soul. Great one to read this week.

Hank, I love that one. I want to share the next paragraph in that same talk. He says, these are just some of the reasons that prostituting the true meaning of love, either with imagination or another person, is so destructive. And I love this. It destroys that which is second only to our faith in God, namely, faith in those we love. To me, I think that's one of the major problems we have here is it causes us to lose faith both in God, it causes us to lose the faith and love that we have for other people. That is so damaging. It's becoming common perhaps in this world today, but how destructive is it when we can't trust and love each other in purity and in faith? That is what's going on. That's the sadness of Jacob.

I do want to share something here because of my own children who have a different skin color than I do and who sometimes it becomes difficult as we look through scriptures and helping them understand the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I think what he's teaching here is an extremely important principle. He's already taught that the Lamanites are more righteous than you because of how they're treating their family and then sometimes we think about this curse and skin color is the problem but if you listen carefully to what he's saying he says, "...wown to you that are not pure in heart, that are filthy this day before God, for except you repent the land is cursed for your sakes and the Lamanites

which are not filthy like unto you, nevertheless they are cursed with the sword cursing shall scourge you even unto destruction. The time speedily cometh that except you repent they shall possess this land of your inheritance, and the Lord God will lead away the righteous out from among you. Behold, the Lamanites, your brethren, whom you hate because of their filthiness and the cursings which have come upon your skins, are more righteous than you. For they have not forgotten their commandments of the Lord which was given unto your father, that they should have say but were one wife and concubines they should have none and there should not be whoredoms committed among them. Now this commandment they observe to keep wherefore because of this observance and keeping this commandment the Lord

God will not destroy them but will be merciful unto them and one day they shall become a blessed people. Behold, and this is so important, these people that the Nephites hate, behold their husbands love their wives, their wives love their husbands, their husbands and their wives love their children, and their unbelief and their hatred towards you is because of the iniquity of their fathers, wherefore how much better are you than they in the sight of your great creator? Oh my brethren, I fear that unless you shall repent of your sins, that their skin will be whiter than yours. So we're not talking about a skin necessarily. We're talking about righteousness. When ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God, wherefore a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins,

neither shall you revile against them because of their filthiness, but ye shall remember your own filthiness. Remember that their filthiness became because of their fathers, wherefore ye shall remember your children, how that ye have grieved their hearts because of your example that ye have set before them. And also remember that ye may, because of your filthiness, bring your children under destruction and their sins be heaped upon your heads in the last day." And then this very strong admonition, "'Shake yourselves, that ye may awake from the slumber of death, and loose yourselves from the pains of hell, that ye may not become angels of the devil, to be cast into that

lake of fire and brimstone, which is the second death.'" This is really strong. I think that this point for our day is absolutely critical. We could think that because we are baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or because we have been to the temple, or because of any other set of circumstances in our lives, that we may be better than another person for any reason, whether it's, as we saw in 2 Nephi 26, we may have reason to think that we may be better. The falsehood of that is dangerous. If we are treating our own family poorly, those who are not of the covenant in a sense are better than us. They are more righteous because of how they're

treating their families and we need to be so careful to think that we are above them in any way. This is a call for people to look inside themselves and say, Who am I really? What am I really standing for? What kind of disciple of Jesus Christ am I really? Do I really think I'm better than another group of people? And can I not see that I have reason to repent? It's the Lord is it I syndrome that we need to have upon ourselves. We could very mistakenly think that we may be better than another person. But often the way we see this amongst ourselves is how we treat people within our own home, how we treat our wife, how we treat our husband. You could ask yourself those questions

and it could get a little bit tricky, but to really be true. One of the things that we've had leaders of the church talk about so much recently is what about anger? How are we responding to people in our own home? Do we treat those that we love the most as our dearest friends and our own home? Do we treat those that we love the most as our dearest friends and our eternal companions? Or are these ones that we are cowardly with and deceitful with and not accepting of who they are? Are we demeaning in any way? And it's not the sin of adultery or

of polygamy as he's talking about here, but it's what is our heart? What are we really doing? How do we see those people around us? Do we really see them as equals? And do we really love those who are with us? That was a message of President Nelson recently on his talk regarding abuse. That was a recent message of Elder Kieran and abuse. We've heard that so often in our own general conference talks, but this is the concern of Jacob is,

how are we treating those people that are within our own homes? How are we treating those people that we may have responsibility over but could so easily put ourselves in a position where we could be hurting them? We need to be so careful. And we hopefully need to become so much more loving. And as we attend the temple and as we keep sacred covenants with the Lord, He will help improve our capacity to be more loving. As we reach out to other people and as we study the scriptures with the intent to become like Christ, he can help us become better people. All of us have pieces of our rocks that we need to be taking off, but the reality is there's

only one way that we can get rid of all these rocks and there's only one way that we can really be sensitive to other people's needs and that is coming unto Christ and letting Him perfect us. This is a serious concern, and it's a concern from the leaders of the church today. I'll give you this elder Ciaran. I love this when he's talking about those who are pure in heart. He says, Jesus has overcome the abuses of this world to give power to not only survive one day through Him, to overcome and even conquer. The abuse was not, is not, and never will be your fault. No matter what the abuser or anyone else may have said to the contrary,

when you have been a victim of cruelty, incest, or any other perversion, you are not the one who needs to repent. You are not responsible. You are not less worthy or less valuable or less loved as a human being, or as a daughter or son of God because of what someone else has done to you.

God does not now see, nor has He ever seen you as someone to be despised. Whatever has happened to you, He is not ashamed of you or disappointed in you. He loves you in a way that you have yet to discover, and you will discover it as you trust in His promises, and as you learn to believe Him when He says you are precious in His sight. You are not defined by these terrible things that have been done to you. You are in glorious truth defined by your eternally existing identity as a son or daughter of God, by your creator's perfect infinite love and invitation to whole and complete healing. And then I love this statement. Jesus specializes in the seemingly impossible. He came here to make the impossible possible,

the irredeemable redeemable, to heal the unhealable, to right the unrightable, to promise the unpromiseable, and he's really good at it. In fact, he's perfect at it. For all of this, as we're talking about what's happening here and how people are treating each other, for me, my heart goes to those who have been treated this way. It goes to the people who have suffered and it goes to the people who really are trying to get themselves back on their

feet. Jacob's heart is with them. He's praying for them, he says. He's hoping for their consolation. He's hoping to get them out of affliction in some ways. And so he is talking to these people, but these little moments where he's talking to those who have been hurt. I so appreciate it when we have leaders of the church who remember we can have hope in Christ. I love that focus that Jacob has been treated poorly. Jacob has been, in a sense, even abused by his brothers. Jacob knows what it's like to have a pure heart and be slapped in the face over and over and over again. And I love in verse 2 of chapter 3 where Jacob says, feast upon His love, pleading with them, remember Jesus, remember the Savior, remember what He's done for you, and get back there. And then He goes right back

and tells them to stop. You can see He knows the suffering of the suffered. He knows what it's like to be in those positions, and He is a protector, which I will say in the family proclamation, that is one thing that I appreciate that the responsibility of these fathers and husbands is to protect. I am so grateful for the protection of righteous men in my life. I cannot say that strongly enough. As a woman, and I may not be speaking for every woman, but as a woman, a covenant woman of God, the appreciation I have for the men who protect us is beyond my capacity to express. So I appreciate Jacob, but I appreciate you, John, and you, Hank. You may not all be perfect. I get that. But boy, are we grateful for the protection that comes from righteous men of God.

Barbra, this is fantastic. Yeah. Thank you so much. I love what you're saying about Elder Kiran and those victims of abuse and so forth. There's a talk that I ask my students to read, I give them extra credit if they'll read it, called Be 100% Responsible. And I'm doing that so that they'll remember the test deadline. In the middle of that talk, he has a whole thing about people that are in marriages that are abusive. And it's so helpful to have that in there because I think one of the things that is so hard for marriage counselors to convince people is that if they had been abused that it's not their fault. And that's why we have to keep having reminders like Elder Kieron and

For the Strength of Youth Guide and everything else to if this has happened to you I wanted to throw that talk out there because it's a blessing for people to read, to know what forgiving means in that case. Elder Robbins says it very beautifully. I don't want to do this wrong, you guys. This is so important. He said something like, you forgiving them does not mean they are forgiven. Forgiveness only comes through sincere repentance from God. I really appreciated that idea for those that think that they have to stay in an abusive relationship because I have to be forgiving. That's not the case. So I hope they'll read these talks and on a happier note I just want to say that in the Aaronic Priesthood quorum theme there's a line that says, I will use his priesthood to serve others beginning in my own home. And sometimes when we talk about love your

neighbor or strengthen your brethren or strengthen your sisters, we think of neighbors of the definition of those around me. That should start in our own home and then extend to the neighborhood, not the other way around. That should start with my wife and my children and my family and then extend to the neighbor. So it doesn't look like I'm treating the neighbors better than my family. Yeah, John, someone said once, if you only have one smile to give, don't give it to a stranger. Give it to the person you live with. I think the idea is that's your energy, your focus, like Barb said,

your protection, those closest to you. I remember reading a book a marriage counselor wrote. I thought this was such a good question. He had a list of them. I think it was Kenneth Matheson. One of them was, what is it like to be married to me? Just ask yourself that. Would I be happy if I were married to me? Would I be happy to come home? Would I be excited to talk to me? Just ask yourself that. Would I be happy if I were married to me? Would I be happy to come home? Would I be excited to talk to me? If I were married to me, what would that be like? And that's a very introspection type question like you're asking, Barbara, to look at your own marriage and say, what can I do? And I feel like Jacob is concerned about marriages within his people. President Nelson has that great quote that I love where he says to the priesthood holders of the church, your

first and foremost duty is to love and care for your wife. As a daughter of a righteous priesthood holder, the confidence that comes to a daughter knowing that my mother was my dad's first and foremost responsibility, you can't buy that. You can't provide enough vacations. You can't read enough scriptures. You can't say enough prayers. How a father treats his wife, how the father treats my mother. I remember at the end of my mother's life my dad sitting at the door by her bedside until she literally passed away not leaving her making sure that no wrong person came in, no wrong thing was said.

He just held her in his arms and she passed away of brain cancer, but he protected her to the final breath. And as a daughter, the expectation for my husband is very high. But I will be honest, he does the same thing. When we could not have children, I remember thinking one day and sitting, watching him on the couch and thinking to myself, we have to have children because they need him as a father. Because I knew of the protection and the love he would get.

I think for women, that is something, it's such an anomaly in a sense, and such a paradox for a woman to be treated poorly by a man because it is a man that provides so much of that protection. And again, this is not meant to be a gender thing. There are different genders and are different people, and there's a reason why a man does protect, but there is so much beauty and so much joy and so much happiness in a woman's life that comes from righteous men. It is the most beautiful and handsome and fantastic thing, I think, to see a righteous man of God protecting. And I think it's probably the same in some ways for men. I mean, women

are different. I would let you speak to that if you wanted to. But as women, I think our number one responsibility is also as those who have power and authority of God on this earth is to love and protect our husbands and our children. That their names are safe in our home, but who they are is safe with us. We are protectors of God's children. And their names are safe when we go out and we tell our friends about our wives or our husbands that they're safe, that they don't feel like they're going to be part of a joke or something. I love all of that that you just said.

It just reminds me of Lehi, rise up from the dust and be men. They were males. He knew they were males There there's something more and he knew they were awake there's something more about being a man not just being a male and That's what you're talking about Barbara Barb John we have one chapter left Jacob chapter 4 John I've heard you reference Jacob 4-3, talking about

Eve. Will you just do that real quick? I would love to because I love 2 Nephi chapter 2. I think it's one of the most profound chapters in the whole Book of Mormon. It's Lehi talking to Jacob and teaching him that Adam felt that men might be and men are that they might have joy. Lehi beautifully explains to Jacob about Adam and Eve in the fall and we call it a fortunate fall in our theology. You remember President Nelson's talk about the Book of Mormon, what would your life be like without it? He talks about the Book of Mormon affirms the wisdom of Eve in the episode called the fall. I'm just wondering if Jacob's thinking about 2 Nephi chapter 2 when he writes this verse. We labor diligently to engrave in our

words upon plates, hoping our beloved brother and our children will receive them with thankful hearts and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt concerning their first parents. Is that about Adam and Eve? Who else is it if it's not their first parents? I love that, John. I always thought it was Adam and Eve. Yeah, because of what he learned, Adam felt that men might be men are that they might have joy. They're gonna learn with joy, not with contempt about Adam and Eve, that they messed everything up. Our friend Brad Wilcox says

the atonement was plan A, not plan B. The atonement wasn't to clean up the mess that Adam and Eve made of the world. That second Nephi chapter 2, this is Jacob's blessing from his father that Jacob needs to know about Adam and Eve. So you see that all through this and you see in verse 24 as you said, but behold, all these things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam felt that men might be men, not that they might have joy. I can't imagine that Jacob has given such a beautiful understanding about his father regarding Adam and Eve and the Lord teaching

pure, true doctrine, which really is, as you mentioned, it's section 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants where we hear of this beautiful vision. And you know this, where Joseph sees among the great and mighty ones who are assembled, this is 138 verse 38, who are assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous, for Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and the Father of All, and our glorious Mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. Of course, I love that you brought that up. I could talk about Eve all day. Yes, that they can see with joy.

It's Eve who President Nelson says that we as women must have the courage of Mother Eve. And it's the purpose of the lives of Adam and Eve. And these are these first parents and we have so much joy in them. Had they not made that decision to eat the fruit, we would not exist. That's the reality. We haven't talked about this a lot, but Jacob has taught us to really study our

scriptures and to be firm in knowing the doctrine so we're not confused. I'm confident that Jacob knows the truth regarding our first parents and the truth regarding Adam and Eve for sure. It's a great insight. It maybe knows what the world has done with Adam and Eve for sure. Great insight. It maybe knows what the world has done with Adam and Eve. Either don't believe in them, like I said, or think they messed up everything.

We'd all believe in paradise if it weren't for them. And Jacob learned something totally different from his father, Lehi. So I'm wondering if he's going back to that and saying, I want you to learn with joy about Adam and Eve. And just to tie it to Jacob two and three, what Barb's been teaching us about protecting women and how the story of Eve can be used to hurt women. It has been used. Over the centuries. Elder Oakes said that. He said that many people think Eve and her

daughters have been tainted by that story. And I love that when Joseph F. Smith had that revelation that you just read, Barbara, he said, and our glorious Mother Eve with many of her faithful daughters. It's like, yes! The October of 2018 general conference. I love that President Nelson, President Oaks, and President Eyring, every member of the first presidency, specifically spoke of the righteousness of Mother Eve in that conference. And President Eyring asking us as women to be more like Mother Eve and recognize that one of our primary responsibilities speaking of the gospel is to be the primary nurturers in our own homes. And he says by being nurturers, he says, and that means

being the primary gospel instructors. I love that President Eyring called upon the women of the church to be the primary gospel instructors in their homes. I love that President Oaks quotes President Nelson in talking about the important role of Mother Eve, and then President Nelson reminding us all of the important role that Eve has in the whole plan of salvation. I mean, those talks, so I highly recommend going back to those three talks in 2018 and seeing what the first presidency speaks specifically of regarding Mother Eve and how important her role is in this. And mothers afterwards, the stripling warriors did not say, behold, they had been taught by their come follow me instructors that if they would not doubt, God would deliver them

happy. And I hope they are taught that, but they were taught by their mothers. Home centered. Since you went there, since you went there, I can't miss this opportunity. Cannot be restrained. Cannot be restrained. So this is President Nelson, the participation of sisters in the gathering of Israel. He says, please teach those whom you love that you are learning from the scriptures. Teach them how to turn to the Savior for His healing and cleansing power when they sin. Teach them how to draw upon His strengthening power every day of their lives.

This is to the women of the church. And then President Nelson also says this, let me add that we need women who know how to make important things happen. We need women who are devoted to shepherding God's children along the covenant path towards exaltation. Women who know how to receive personal revelation and understand the power and the peace of the temple endowment. Women who know how to call upon the powers of heaven to protect and strengthen children and families. Women who teach. He also says attacks

against the church, its doctrine and our way of life are going to increase. Because of this we need women who have a bedrock understanding of the doctrine of Christ and who will use that understanding to teach and help raise a sin-resistant generation. We need women who can detect deception in all its forms. We need women who know how to access God's power to make available to covenant keepers and who express their beliefs with confidence and with charity. We need women who have the courage and the vision of our mother Eve. I love that in terms of what you were just saying and I also love that in terms of this chapter where we have in Jacob chapter 4 verse 7, he says,

Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness, that we may know that it is by His grace, which is another word that I love, and His great condescension unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things. Then you see in verse 9, for behold, by the power of His word, man came upon the face of the earth. And then we see in verse 11, wherefore, beloved brethren, and I would say sisters in this case, be reconciled unto Him through the atonement of Christ, His only begotten Son, that ye may obtain a resurrection according to the power of the resurrection. There's so much that is being spoken of about power here, and power comes through keeping

covenants and worthiness. And this is both available to women and men. And I love that after all of this difficult discussion that Jacob has with these people, he's begging them to say, in verse seven, bring your weaknesses to the Lord. He will fill you with His grace. He will put you back on your feet in a sense. He is going to work this marvelous work in your lives. He is going to give you the mysteries of the kingdom of God and He is going to save you. I just love in verse 12 where He says then, And now behold, marvel not that I tell you these things. For why not speak of the atonement of Christ and attain to a perfect knowledge of Him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come? After

bringing them all to their knees almost and helping them see their wickedness of their ways, the answer is and always will be Jesus Christ. I've always loved that question by Jacob. Elder Maxwell has such a great quote with us too, where he says, brothers and sisters, given man's true self-interest, why should we really speak of much of anything else? Why not speak of the atonement of Christ? Why not? Is there really anything else more important to be talking about? Let's speak of Christ. Let's speak of him as often as we can. Let's talk about the reconciliation that comes. Let's talk of his grace. Let's talk of his hope. Let's talk of his resurrection. Let's talk about his perfect ability to give knowledge and to help people repent. Let's talk about His grace. Let's talk of His hope. Let's talk of His resurrection. Let's talk about His perfect ability to give knowledge and to help people repent.

Let's talk about Him plainly. Let's talk about Him powerfully. Let's bring people to Christ. Why not talk about Him? I love that the name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Why not talk about the Church of Jesus Christ? Why not use His name? It's so powerful that Jacob finishes this whole sermon on Jesus Christ and be plain in speaking of Him for the salvation of your souls. Barb, John, someone listening might think, man, this is hard for me to hear, to go through this and to see where I'm falling short or where I really was headed in the wrong direction. Elder Holland said this back in 1998. he said, To you is extended the peace

and renewal of repentance, available through the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. In these serious matters, the path of repentance is not easily begun, nor painlessly traveled, but the Savior of the world will walk that essential journey with you. He will strengthen you when you waver. He will be your light when it seems most dark. He will take your hand and be your hope when hope seems all you have left. We definitely don't want anyone to walk away from our time together today thinking I'm broken. I'm irreparable. Jacob answers that question. I think. If you are feeling that way, I love that in Jacob chapter 3, at the very beginning, he's like, okay, I've been ripping on everybody, mostly the husbands in Jacob chapter 2, and now let me speak to you that are pure in heart. And it gives just this simple look to God with

firmness of mind. Pray to Him with exceeding faith. He will console you in your afflictions. And maybe we could add your inadequacies. He'll plead your cause. Send down justice upon those who seek your destruction. One more verse. Oh, all ye that are pure in heart, lift up your heads. Don't hang down your heads. Receive, receive is an action word. Receive the pleasing word of God, give place, feast upon His love for you may, if your minds are firm forever. The next 11 verses, he goes back to ripping on everyone else.

So I feel like there's an interesting ratio here. Pure in heart, yet two verses. What a tough assignment. He's got to speak to both the pure and heart and those that are not pure and heart in the same talk. There are some, Hank, you know this, Barbara, you know this, you've got a youth group. Some kid is feeling guilty because he stole a pwix at 7-11 when he was seven years old. And somebody else has some real serious struggles, but they're not thinking anything of it. How do you talk to both of them at the same time? And the answer is, you have to be inspired. You have to speak by the power of the Spirit. John, I can't help but think when you're saying that of the parable of the prodigal son,

where you have three main characters. You have the father, you have the prodigal, and you have the quote unquote, righteous son. That parable is taught so well by Christ. Elder Uchtdorf, I loved this last General Conference talk he gave in October of 2023. To Hank's question, I think Elder Uchtdorf has such a great answer. He says, who among us has not departed from the path of holiness, foolishly thinking that we could find more happiness going our own self-centered way? Who among us has not felt humbled, broken-hearted, and desperate for forgiveness and mercy? Perhaps some may even wonder, is it possible to go back? Will I be labeled forever, rejected and avoided by my former friends?

Is it better to just stay lost? How will God react if I try to return? And then he says, the parable itself is being answered by the Savior. He says, our heavenly Father will run to us, His heart overflowing with love and compassion. He will embrace us, place a robe around our shoulders, a ring on our fingers, sandals on our feet, and proclaim, today we celebrate for my child who was once dead has come back to life. Heaven will rejoice at our return.

May I just speak to you individually for a moment? And it's just the Elder Uchtdorf way of saying it. Like, let me just talk to you. And he says, no matter what may have happened in your life, I echo what Elder Jeffrey R. Holland has said, it is not possible for you to sink lower than the infinite light of Christ's atoning sacrifice shines. I just love that statement. And then this, though choices may have taken you far away from the Savior and his church, the master healer stands at the road that leads home, welcoming you. And we as members of the Church of Jesus Christ seek to follow his example and embrace you as our brothers and sisters, as our friends. We rejoice and we celebrate with you. Your return will not

diminish the blessings of others, for the Father's bounty is infinite and what is given to one does not in the slightest diminish the birthright of others." I love this reality of what Hank is asking and Elder Uchtdorf says it so clearly. I do not pretend that coming back is an easy thing to do. I can testify of that. It may in fact be the toughest choice you will ever make, but I bear witness at the moment you decide to return and walk in the way of our Savior and Redeemer, His power will enter into your life and transform it. Angels in heaven will rejoice. So will we, your family in Christ. I love that this is a family story. I love that the people that Jacob is talking to are family members.

These are his posterity. These are his nephews and nieces. These are his cousins. These are people he loves so much. And I love in verse 10 and 11, Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom and in justice and in great mercy over all his works wherefore beloved brethren be reconciled unto him through the atonement of christ his only begotten son and ye may obtain a resurrection according to the power of resurrection it is hard the reality is some things are hard i have repented of stupid things in my life before and and it is humiliating and it is hard. But there is nothing, the hardness does not even slightly compare to the joy on the other side of the difficulty.

I remember one moment in my life where I was preparing for my mission, and I was recognizing that I had some things to repent of before I went, and my dad was my stake president. And long story short, it was the hardest moment of my life, I think, up to that point, admitting to my father as the stake president that I had done something wrong, as if he thought that I was perfect. But I also learned in that moment that, as it teaches us in Mosiah, that we have to be as a child, submissive, meek, humble, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord see fit to inflict upon us, even as a child does submit to his father.

I personally believe that one of the reasons that repentance is difficult is because it helps us to recognize the intense, tender mercy of the Savior of the world who suffered all things and went below all things. Our own suffering allows us then to be compassionate and understanding of the Savior of the world who suffered all things and went below all things. Our own suffering allows us then to be compassionate and understanding of the Savior of the world. He is already compassionate for us. It allows us to be compassionate towards Him and towards all people who also suffer. We understand it's worth every ounce of pain to be able to feel the love of Jesus Christ and to be reconciled to Him. No question.

to be able to feel the love of Jesus Christ and to be reconciled to Him. No question. Elder Colister once taught, it breathes new life into a hopeless heart. Barb, is there anything we missed? One thing that keeps coming back to me, it's the errand of the Lord. Jacob has received this errand of the Lord. I want to say with women and leadership and things, sometimes we look at this errand of the Lord and so therefore he is the prophet, he's going to go tell everyone. I think that important understanding that as women and men, but especially as women, we deal with ambiguity and each of us receives our own errand from the Lord. And for some that may be that we go on missions and some may be that that means that we marry at a certain age and for some that may be that we have children at a certain age, and for some that may be that we have children

at a certain age. Regardless of what decision we are making, the Lord will use us just as he used Jacob in his life, that we each have our own errand, and the key for us then is submit our will to his. That women and men both, the way to be a true leader as Jacob is, is to receive the errand from the Lord, and then recognize that that errand

is personal to us. Jacob's receiving it as a leader of the community. We receive general errands from the Lord. For our time, the gathering of Israel is an errand of the Lord that the Lord has given to us, but each individual person receives their own errand from the Lord. And I love that Jacob finds that errand in the temple, and that is one of the greatest places that we can receive our errand from the Lord is to continually return to the temple, stay close to the Lord, go to his home with the desire to do his will, not my will, but thine be done. That's a true disciple of Jesus Christ. And Jacob is an example of that. There are as many varied errands as there are humans on the earth. When we understand God's errand, we will be filled with his power to be able to fulfill

that errand just as Jacob was. And with that, Barbara, I don't think we could add anything else. What a beautiful way to finish. We want to remind you all of Barb's podcast, Grounded. We hope you'll go look that up. We want to thank Barbara for spending her time with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We're going to cover more of the Book of Jacob on Follow Him. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhimm.co. On our website, you'll also find our two books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament

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