Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - James Part 2 • Dr. J.B. Haws • Nov 13 - Nov 19

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

Dr. J.B. Haws continues to explore James’ exhortations to remain humble, and the importance of humility and the transformative nature of the Spirit in shaping our character.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-41-52/YouTube: https://youtu.be/Z0dMXqcm3dAFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part II– Dr. JB Haws00:07 The tongue is a fire and speaking of spiritual things03:09 Keeping someone’s name safe06:38 Clean hands and pure hearts08:13 Avoiding criticism protects us10:22 “Wrestling with Comparisons” by J.B. Haws12:11 Discipleship questions15:11 Please Heavenly Father and point people to Jesus Christ17:14 Needing correction18:15 How to embody good character20:33 Faith and works25:23 President Oaks “The Challenge to Become”26:59 A waterskiing analogy30:42 Be patient and a story about fruit35:31 The patience of Job37:29 Confession and humility40:43 End of Part II– Dr. JB HawsThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Keep listening for part two with Dr. J. B. Hawes, the book of James. You talk about the tongue is a fire, that's chapter three. The tongue can no man tame. My guess is we're in good company. You know we're all going to be in good company. This is why I think the tongue of angels talk resonate with people. One of that questions is, what do we do? I think this is one of those things that we can pray that the Spirit maybe holds us back. I think about section 63 of the Dark and Curnace as a passage about being careful about how we speak about sacred things.

And then it uses this interesting word, the constraint of the Spirit. If we expand what we think about our relationships, those that are creating the image of God is being sacred things and we're being so careful how we speak about them. I think that could be one next step is that I should say something and to be more sensitive to those Nudgings, that's one thing the spirit can help us do is to give us those feelings. Don't say what you're just about to say. You know, I Want to be that kind of receptive and to listen. I call them emotion urges. You feel an emotion anger or fear and this urge comes I better say this and if you can, no, I'm not going to follow my emotional urge. I'm going to hold back. That's like a controlling the tongue. That's good, Hank.

I think that's the bit in the horse, something really powerful or a rudder. How much wind force can be controlled with just a little rud rudder. Very small rudder. Yeah. That's good. I like that emotional urge and then the restraint to be able to say I'm not going to do it. Yeah. President Hinckley was talking to the Aaronic priest and there's so many good things in the statement.

He said, when you as a priest, kneel at the sacrament table and offer up the prayer which came by revelation, you place the entire congregation under covenant with the Lord. And he said, is this a small thing? It is a most important and remarkable thing. And that is kind of amazing that a priest, a 16, 17, 18 year old with that priest of authority can place the entire congregation under covenant. He said, it is a most important and remarkable thing. It is totally wrong for you to use filthy and unseemly talk at school or work and then kneel at the sacrament table on Sunday. As those holding his holy priesthood, you must be worthy vessel something like that.

I'm looking at verse 10 out of the same mouth, proceedeth both blessing and cursing. And I love this. James is shaking his head. My brother and these things ought not so to be. Yeah. Yeah. I like what you're saying. That's the same mouth you're using.

As Elder Holland said in that talk, you're bearing your testimony one week and then you're berating people. And another day with the same mouth, what there's something wrong with this. I think what's James is hitting on here. I love that this theme just keeps weaving its way throughout this wonderful book. And here's James 4-11, speak not evil one of another, brother.

And he to speak with evil of his brother and judges his brother speak with evil of the law and judges the law, but if that would judge the law, that would not adure of the law, but a judge. And there's something about this, again, about this humility, about this recognition of how we treat each other. And this calls to my mind one of those other lightning moment talks, Elder Creole Coford gave this talk, your name is safe in our house. Creole Alcofer. Yeah. Yeah. That was a lightning bolt to talk for me.

This idea that making a pact that your name is safe in our house. Even when you're not there, even when you're not present, your name is safe. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up, JB. I have that talk right in front of me. So that's your April 1999 general conference. Let me just quote one paragraph. What a blessing it would be if each of our names truly could be safe in the home of others.

Have you noticed how easy it is to find fault with other people? All too often we seek to be excused from the very behavior we condemn in others. Mercy for me, justice for everyone else, is a much too common addiction. When we deal with the name and reputation of another, we deal with something sacred in the sight of the Lord. That's so powerful. This one really had an impact. One of those talks for me that just thunderclaped. I'm thinking again, well, how do I get there and back in James 4, 8? So we're just a couple verses before the 4, 11, 1. He says, draw 9 to God. He will draw 9 to you. I mean, that's so much such great counsel, this wisdom literature. But then here's this interesting line, cleanse your hands, e-synners, and

purify your hearts, e-double-minded. I'm wondering how this could be practical. I'm gonna turn again to a great thought from Richard Bushman. I love what he has said about the pure heart and he's thinking about this in terms of someone who has had a great education, has learned some things, and sometimes that can create a bit of pride,

a bit of arrogance, like you wanna come into a classroom, and he was talking to teachers. He said, if you come into a classroom and you want to just show off, you want to just amaze people with how much you know, and you want to come into a classroom and he was talking to teachers. He said, if you come into a classroom and you want to just show off, you want to just amaze people with how much you know, and you want to slaughter some sacred cows or burst some bubbles. And it's all about, look at me, look how much I know. He said, that's not going to go down.

But then he said, if you come in with a pure heart, and it's always defined a pure heart, your only desire is to bless people. Then he said, you know, he's talking to teachers. He said, it's going to come across completely different. I love that definition. It's a working definition of pure heart. Your only desire is to bless people. Then he said, you know, he's talking to teachers. It's going to come across completely different. I love that definition. It's a working definition of pure heart. Your only desire is to bless people. One of the ways I think we can build trust with our children is how we talk about others who are not present. When I get home from church, if I'm talking at poorly about the bishop or the Elder's Court of Presence, or at or the release of society present, or one of the teachers.

It might teach them that, hey, when people aren't present, I say things that I wouldn't say if they were present. And maybe I hurt trust with them. Stephen Covey, we've mentioned him today. One of the most important ways to manifest integrity is to be loyal to those who are not present. In doing so, we build the trust of those who are present. That's powerful. I don't think I know this is one of your areas of research and expertise is this idea of

building trust. That is really so true. I'm still on, cleanse your hands, these sinners, purify your hearts, you double-minded, and I'm sure our listeners are going, hey, that's that. Clean hands, pure hearts thing. Clean hands are actions and pure hearts are intense. Elder Bednar talked about the atonement not only cleanses us, but changes us. Cleanses us from past sins and purifies our intents for our futures. That's a theme that we see all that all over. Clean hands, pure heart. And it does come from within us. Elder Holland said this, the tongue of angels. We obviously have

been talking about it so much we want everybody to go listen to it again, but he says it goes without saying that negative speaking often flows from negative thinking, negative thinking about ourselves. We see our own faults, we speak critically of ourselves. And before long, that's how we see everyone. No sunshine, no roses, no promise of hope or happiness. Before long, we and everybody around us are miserable. He said, speak hopefully, speak encouragingly, including about yourself. And then he said, try not to mow and complain. As someone once said, even in the golden age of civilization someone undoubtedly grumbled that everything looked too yellow. Golden age.

Yeah, there's another haul in a jam. Oh, I love it. So it does cleanse your hands and purify your heart. Sounds like let's have you see yourself in a glorious way, and then you'll start to see others in a glorious way. It kind of comes from within. Hank and JB, I wanted to jump back a bit because I remember President Oak saying something that started me at first, he said, the primary reason for the commandment to avoid criticism is to protect the spiritual well-being of the criticizer, not the person we would criticize, which was, oh, I don't know. We say something ill about somebody if it really hurts them when they're, but it hurts us. It reveals where

our heart is at. Oh, that's profound. This is a flash from the past, but I remember when the three of us were talking about Dr. Cummins 10, there's that great line where the Lord was going to Joseph Smith talking about the plot to discredit him. The Lord said that Satan desired to drag the deceivers, that forger's down to hell. All he cares about is making people miserable by bringing them in and convincing them that they could undermine Joseph Smith, his only goal was to drag them down. Interesting to think about those parallels that the spiritual welfare of the criticizer that sometimes Satan is, I mean, he's just interested in making us miserable. He's just interested in sometimes even making people feel justified in their criticisms because he realizes that he can drag down our cells.

Maybe in the same line and Hank, that quoting of Elder Holland about the thinking of ourselves at such a powerful principle, it makes me think of James 4.7, this last sentence. So the first sentence is submit yourselves, therefore to God, but this last sentence, resist the devil and he will flee from you. An Ezra Taft Benson lined October 1974, do not despair. He said this great line, there are times when you simply have to righteously hang on and outlast the devil until his depressive spirit leaves you. I think this is a temptation, a devilish sort of discouragement, kind of temptation, and other Maxwell's phrases to how we think about ourselves. That's one way I think we can resist the devil. We can outlast the devil

and his depressive spirit until it leaves us. Sometimes that depressive spirit is about how we see ourselves. J.B., I want to quote you back to you. You can tell me how much you love this quote because it came from such a brilliant person who is with us today. This is back to your BYU devotional wrestling with comparisons. Fitz, right here to what we're talking about. You said there is no question that you and I are going to fail at many things we attempt to do.

And in the eyes of those making comparisons, we all are repeatedly going to fall short. There's always a bigger fish, so to speak. You are going to get emails, voicemails, text messages, maybe even this very day, notifying you that someone else was hired for a job that someone else was picked for a team that someone else is not interested in the second date that someone else was called as Relief Society President and so on. But do not take that as a mark of your worth. Disappointments sting, but they can be wonderfully albeit painful, formative. All things can really work together to the good of them that love God.

Do not let the temptation to compare, give these disappointments destructive power. What a wonderful message you gave to BYU students and really to anyone who listens, really fits well with what James is saying. That this really hurts you, all this comparison and backbiting and evil speaking, it hurts you. Oh, I couldn't say a better, Hank. I couldn't say it better. I like that.

Couldn't say it better because it was you. The way you summed it up. That quote came from a pretty smart guy, JB. What do you think about? Or someone who's had a lot of experience with failure, which is true. How do I do that? How do I not feel disappointed when someone else gets something I was hoping for? How do I resist the devil that way?

Speak not evil of anyone. You've asked one of those $64,000 discipleship questions. Here's a James thought. And actually, I hadn't even really maybe lined up in these two, but here's some other verses that are very, very interesting. This is James 4, 13 to 17. He's kind of already hit on this theme a little bit in chapter 1, but this is verse 13 of chapter 4.

Go to now, ye that say, today or tomorrow, we will go in such a city and continue there a year and buy and sell and get gain. Whereas you know not what ye shall be on the maro, for what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. He talked in chapter one about the flowers that withereth pretty quickly in the scorching heat of the sun. And there's something powerful I think about that kind of humility that we realize our moments in the sun are kind of fleeting. Youth is fleeting as I was reading that I had this memory of one of my great favorite basketball teammates

when we were in our 20s, he was trying to get us to see League Team together and a couple of guys were sort of himming in high and he's like, come on guys, we've got to play now because there will come a time when we're gonna be too old to play. And that didn't seem real as a 20 year old and like in a flash of an eye, it's real.

Now, there's something that James would have as say about the fleetingness of our glory days. And by remembering that, it helps make, it keeps us a little more grounded, recognizing that that's not what it's all about. The CS Lewis quote that I don't have this one in front of me, but let's see if we can give paraphrase, but he said, when you meet a truly humble man, you're not going to meet a man who is what the world is thinking of as humble, who's always telling people, you know, I'm not that great or you know, don't pay attention to me. He said, the only thing you will notice is that he was a friendly chap who seemed to take a great deal of interest in what you were saying. He won't be thinking about humility,

he won't be thinking about himself at all. So then James goes on to say, verse 16 of chapter 4, but now you rejoice in your boasting all such rejoicing as evil Therefore to him that knoweth to do good and do with it not to him at his sin. Did you just have the sense that he's almost saying? Keep in mind that humility comes from not thinking so much about ourselves. So much easier said than done. If I'm truly humble, I won't be walking into a meeting or a conversation thinking, okay, I'm gonna be really humble. I will just be who I am. Oh, man, that's hard, JB.

Oh, it is. But I think it starts with that idea of, and I like what John said, our actions and our motives. And that's maybe the place that we try to tame. As we try to tame our motives, what are we really hoping to happen? What are we really hoping? We'll come about. Oh, it's tough.

John, you've heard me say it many times. My lessons go differently if I'm trying to impress than if I'm trying to bless. The lesson that I'm teaching is so different. And I think JB said that with Richard Bushman, if I'm walking into a class ready to impress, I'm going to fall flat. I was on a plane with Virginia Hinckley Pierce going to speak to the same singles conference in California.

This is when President Hinckley was the president of the church. And she said to me, I just don't know what to say to these people. I don't know how to help them. And I was talking to my dad and he said, well, don't worry about pleasing them. Just please the Lord. That helped me tremendously. I'm trying to please his heavenly father and point people to Christ. That's what I'm trying to do. Hank, I think you modeled something for us that I think is one of the keys. When we're this honest with ourselves, that's probably a significant part of the battle.

When we can be honest and say, there is a difference in my lessons when I try to impress versus try to bless. There's something about that kind of humility. That feels James S. That we are admitting that. That's a key. that's worth highlighting is that when we can model that kind of honesty and humility and recognize it in ourselves, then we're on our way, I think.

We all kind of wrestle with that, don't we? You want people to feel the spirit of the Lord and feel healed and motivated or help. And you're not just trying to impress. Yeah, thanks for keeping it real, Hank, because we struggle with that, don't we? Yeah. In chapter three, verse one, this one really stood out to me, because in the new revised standard version, or maybe the Oxford English Bible,

one of these, my brother in seek not to be teachers, is how they rendered this, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation, you sort of get this sense, the James is saying, be cautious before you seek to become a teacher because the way I'm reading this, everything you say is going to be measured against the direction of your life. Oh, man.

Don't we all feel that? You can just even imagine people who are listening to this episode who are thinking, you know, like, oh, yeah, right. I can think of this litany of episodes where you have not lived up to what you're preaching there. It's a real important thing. I hear James speaking to us about it in our desires right and how do we do that? It's true. We're sitting here talking about your name is safe in our home and I can't have I been critical of anybody else.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. This is why we do this. We need reminders, we need course corrections, we all need that. We are probably off what would President Eurkdars say, we're probably off course most of the time. And airliner is off course most of the time and we keep making corrections. And I just think it's so interesting that we're directed to study the scriptures every day,

not once a year, because we need to be making corrections and being reminded of the kind of things we're talking about every day, because I needed these reminders today. When you get that feeling, I got to do better, I got to be better. That's a good place to be, even if it's painful. Well said, John, this is how the book of James, I think, is so memorable for all of us and why the readers of the Bible, we love this book because it kind of is that seeing ourselves in the mirror of the law and just sort of being doers and what kind of things can we see in ourselves. I think you summed that up beautifully. JB, one more question.

I'm going to take one thing away from you and that is you can't tell me you're not this way. I just want to be taught, honestly, I want to be taught. In my interactions with you, I've known you goodness 12, 13 years. Yeah, that's right. I've known you. You use that mouth of yours for so much good. What happens inside of you that makes that part of your character? It's a tough one, Hank. You, uh, in very kind, he gave me something to shoot for. In this great book, our Latter-Dissaint Hems, Carolyn Davidson, sought out the, the kind of the back story of every one of our Hems.

The one for Lord, I would follow the, that just rings around in my mind all the time. Susan Evans McLeod was the lyricist and she tells the story that her younger sister called her to go with her to shop for a burial dress for her infant daughter who had died. And before her sister came to pick her up, she, if I remember the story, right, she'd just knelt in prayer and just basically said, Heavenly Father. No one who interacts with my sister today is going to know what's happening. Please, please, bless people to be kind. And then they go out shopping. And she says, of course, no one knew some people were kind, some people weren't. This is just the daily of life. And she said that was the story she had in mind. And she wrote, Lord, I would follow the. And so you think about that line in the quiet heart is hidden sorrow that the eye can't see.

I think if that's the kind of story that we remember, the President Eireen, great quote where you know that, if you think that half the people you're doing with are carrying hidden burdens, then you're gonna be right every time. What you both said earlier, how much we feel like we need mercy and need love and compassion for everything that we're experiencing and caring, boy, that makes us want to give that

so much to other people, because we know the things that we're caring and if we think, wow, if I just, if I could just remember that that person is caring something I don't know about in the hardest hidden sorrow that I can't see. Then how can I not try to treat them like someone who needs that kind of boost? Those aren't easy things to remember. And I want to remember them more. JB, a couple more points. I'd ask you to comment on. Let's talk about faith and works.

James seems to take this on. He's being a touch sarcastic here. He says in chapter two, verse 15, if a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food, and you just look at him and say, be warmed and filled. But you don't give them anything. Don't worry. Be happy. Yeah. It's right. Even so, faith, if a half-not works is dead being alone. JB, I'm sure you've had in your interfaith work, you've had the faith versus works concept. What comes to your mind when we talk about faith and works? I'll give you one idea before we hand it over to you. That is just a couple of weeks ago we had Dr. Richardson and he said it's like someone says heads or tails and you say both.

They say you can't say both and says, I just want the quarter. You know, there are two sides of the same coin. So what would you say here? This discussion James has about faith and works. Oh, I love it. And I'm so glad you've raised this in such a good way. One thing that I appreciate about some really great commentators and two that all maybe highlight Raymond Brown, a fantastic

Roman Catholic scholar of the New Testament, and then Craig Blomberg, who is a wonderful evangelical Christian partner in a lot of the BYU, evangelical Christian interfaith dialogues, just been a pioneer in that he's written a great commentary on the New Testament coming from different theological places. I like how many commentators are sort of saying that Martin Luther, who I have all kinds of admiration for, and who I'd think about the way his own religious life and spiritual life, and as John said really nicely earlier in our conversation, you know, just had felt the beauties of grace that had just relieved him from so many pressures that had just been weighing on him. His sort of commentary about

James may have sort of confused the point. It's good that even commentators from different religious traditions now are coming to the place of saying that James and Paul aren't disagreeing. That's a misreading here. What James seems to be doing is trying to correct people who were misreading Paul. James was probably aware that some people who were taking Paul the wrong way. And that Paul is talking about ritual adherence to the law of Moses, that kind of works, righteousness, doing these rituals, circumcision, that was not going to save you. And that some people at the time were taking that way too far. And so what James is saying back is saying,

no, you can't say you have faith if this doesn't transform your life, and if you're not doing something differently, if you're not becoming something, if you're not doing works of charity, then you can't say that you have faith. In other words, that James is taking a misunderstanding of Paul and saying, we're going the wrong way. So I think that's a huge, here's a really nice, laterally, saint take on this, what might be perceived as kind of a conflict between faith and works, and I think this captures that sense of the unity. So this comes from David Holland, who teaches at the Harvard Community School, Brilliant Mind, and he wrote this essay in the Oxford Handbook on Mormonism, and it's about open canon and revelation. I love what he says

here. He's talking about the restoration thinking suggests the possibility that the great profusion of divine words, even with many of those words intention with each other, might result in a greater unity of purpose and understanding than a smaller, more restrained set of revelations. This is a great concept, I think, you know, that more revelations, even if there's sometimes intention, brings us to a closer understanding. At first blush, such a suggestion seems dubious. It is difficult to see how more complexity might result in more coherence. But like brushstrokes on a canvas, the endless marks of revelation that color the lives of Latter-day Saints may in their multiplicity resolve, or more accurately dissolve some contradictions

rather than intensify them. A few strokes of red crossing a few strokes of yellow convey the ideas of conflict, but scores of red strokes crossing scores of yellow strokes convey the idea of orange. In like manner, Paul's emphasis on grace and James's celebration of works struck a reader like Martin Luther as incongruous, and the relative preponderance of Paul's statements seemed to carry the day. But Latter-day Saints, living with endless statements in support of both human works and atoning grace, living with endless statements in support of both human works and atoning grace, have over time watched their boundaries blur into one and effibly understood truth, which they seem to demonstrate ever less interest in separating. That's fantastic. Isn't that beautifully said?

Yeah, some people know how to be writers. Isn't that image great about the red and yellow might seem conflict, but what they're really trying to portray is something news. And that's orange. I'll just say what this calls to my mind, this discussion of James is President Oaks, the challenge to become talk, which he reprised so much in this last general conference, that what we're really talking about is becoming something. It's the Savior's grace that changes us and enables us and empowers us, but he gives us the right to choose and we demonstrate our choice, our agency, by the things that we do. And that shapes us and

then we're becoming something. Faith without works is meaningless because we can't become something unless we choose something. The Savior's grace gives us the right to choose to become what He offers us to become. Man, I really love that idea that you can bring them together and discussing them more and more and more will bring them even more together. Clarity comes from even more blurring of the strokes or something. Yeah, that's right. We see orange. We're not in silos of faith and works, maybe. Yeah.

I think it's a reminder that one of Paul's warnings that I just think comes through really clearly is that he wants to remind us that there's nothing we have to boast. I mean, there's just no way we can boast of ourselves that we can save ourselves. I hear James coming from a completely different sort of place of saying that in sort of the opposite way is that we have to be really careful about saying that we have faith if we're not willing to be changed, if we're not willing to be different. This is a pretty homie analogy, but I love water skiing. I often think that this grace works, things like a water skier, no matter how accomplished someone is as a water skier, no matter how strong there

as a swimmer, there is just no way they're going to be able to water ski without a boat. I mean, there's just nothing they could do on their own. They could never say I can do this on my own. But at the same time, if you don't choose to respond to the boat, if you do nothing but attach a rope to you, there's no way you're going to water ski, you're just be dragged into the water. It's these two things working in tandem. You can never boast and say, I can do this without the boat. But if you don't respond to the boat and you make those choices, nothing's going to happen either. That's wonderful. And the wonderful experience about it is both. Yeah. Right? It's both together. And I love that idea too that it's constant. I mean, the grace is all along the way. It's always the enabling power, not something at the end, not something it's compensating for as much as we can do. It's all along the way.

It's all along the way. And it can be an incredible experience. Yeah. doesn't have to be an argument as much as it can be a synergistic experience of both grace and works. That tension, that beauty between them both can really take you to a higher, a higher place. Maybe it's we've come to Christ. Now we're trying to become like Christ. Our efforts to become like Christ and the measure of how well we're doing isn't what saves us or not. We've come to Christ, we've accepted as God's way of repenting, we've been baptized, but now we're trying to become like him because he

asked us to and I like the idea of striving. Like you said, it's what elder oaks called becoming. I have done good works with the wrong motive so many times. I've gone home teaching the last day of the month. But if I were to sit there and say, well, I'm going to wait until my motives are absolutely perfect, I probably wouldn't have done anything. I can kind of see how I can't just wait to have perfect motives either. I like the idea of striving and I hope the Lord will purify my heart and my motives, and I'll get to a place where I've got the right motives. And I'm just naturally a nice person like JB is, but I'm gonna keep working on it.

That's why I like the idea of becoming and I can see the tension there, but I also see the value in striving. My mission present, Menlo Smith, used to say, the Lord gets the work done through his people, but he gets his people done through his people, but he gets his people done through the work. Nice. He's changing us by doing his work, but it's the grace of Christ is before, during and after, as Elder Haifin said, when have we ever not had the grace of Christ

in our lives, in the chance that we have to live and breathe as King Benjamin might say. We have always had the grace of Christ and it like you said, JB, it's not after, while we're waiting to see how this all adds up to see if we need grace to kick in. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And our friend Brad Wilcox has talked about that many have. It's some helpful discussions. Thank you for saying that James is kind of responding to a Trend yeah Yeah, I think that can rehabilitate sort of what sometimes is seen as an intro a new testament sort of Argument but it just rings true to me that that's not the case I think it's a corrective on a misunderstanding and saying be careful about misreading this and That they are supporting each other and And I think that's powerful.

Yeah. JB, as I looked at chapter five, the last chapter in James, I saw a lot about patience and endurance, patience, until the Lord comes. We count them happy which endure. What does James get them after here? Hmm, like with the other places in this book, I'm impressed with his analogies. I think they're

memorable. This one struck me in chapter five or seven. Be patient, therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waited for the precious fruit of the earth, and have long patience for it until he received the early and latter reign. Be also patient, establish your hearts for the coming of the Lord Drawth, and I love fruit, can't get enough of it. And so we have some fruit trees in our yard. We have this apple tree, and I love apples, and I've always loved eating the unripe, you know, kind of green apples. But we got this apple tree thinking it was a variety that we really love. John a gold. I have to admit, the first couple years, I just was so upset about this tree. We almost came to the point where I wanted to get rid of it. And I said to Laura, my wife, I'm like, you know, this tree is just not what I expected.

And she is so wise. She said, you are eating the apples before they're ready. And I'm like, no, no, I'm because I was even trying to hold myself back because I love teeth apples too early. I said, no, I think they're already have turned. She said, no, no, she convinced me last year to wait one week longer. The apples really reddened up that last week. They were totally different. I couldn't believe it. I mean, so that for a couple of years, I was just so impatient and I was eating them and that one week, it really was, like one week difference changed these apples.

I can see Laura laughing at you. Oh yeah, yeah. She's, she's, she's a confirmed, because this has been a point of discussion for the last couple of years. And so if you convince me, I was totally, totally wrong. It makes me think of this sort of husband, man, and fruit analogy is that sometimes it might even be that last tiny bit, there's just a little bit more patience needed that the holding on just a little bit longer, the fourth watch of the night. I mean all kinds of scriptural stories

that I think just come in. This is another one that popped into my mind Elder Richard G. Scott such great things to say about revelation He tells this story about receiving some really important revelation that was enough that he could even write down some thoughts But then he did something that I don't do enough. He said Is there more and he prayed after even got a quite a bit. He's like is there more and he prayed after even got quite a bit? He's like, is there more? That's on my mind with this patience this last week of the fruit ripening this holding on is that Sometimes when we're trying to be patient and suffering maybe it's that last week that the sweetness is gonna be revealed Maybe it's that thinking we've gotten a lesson. We've gotten the message

But maybe to have that slowing down like Elder Scott and saying, is there more? Is there one more bit? Maybe that's the kind of patience that James is recommending to us. I'm remembering in section four, the revelation to Joseph Smith senior about the Lord says, remember patience in there.

My hope is that if the Lord's asking us to be patient, then that means he is patient with us And that he's long suffering with us and he is according to the scriptures he is and I'm so grateful for that that he can be patients with our ups and downs and our Messing up on the covenant path and getting back on. If the Lord's preaching patience, I know that means he's got it mastered and he can be patient with us. I think this falls back in with the way we treat each other as well. When you are patiently waiting, maybe in a flixion like James says here, or if you're trying to be patient in the coming of the Lord, patience that stretch can make you a little more

snarky with each other. Elder Uktorf said, waiting can be hard. Children know it, and so do adults. We live in a world offering fast food, instant messages, on-demand movies, and immediate answers. We don't like to wait. Some even fill their blood pressure rise when they're lying at the grocery store, move slower than the lines around them. That's never happened to be. I guilt is charged. Yeah. He says, we want what we want and we want it now. The idea of patience may seem unpleasant and bitter, but he says, never less without patience, we cannot please God. We cannot become perfect. It ties me back to what James is saying is be patient, but in your patience, we cannot please God, we cannot become perfect. It ties me back to what James is saying is be patient,

but in your patience, be gentle. Fantastic. There's a verse in Luke that says, in your patience, he will possess your souls. I've always wondered what that means because I feel like we've also heard talks about having a sense of urgency. So which one is it?

I don't know, be patient and you'll figure it out. That's how it feels sometimes. I just hope the Lord's patient with me and with us. I wasn't very happy when James said, remember the patience of Job. I was like, oh no. I don't want to be that patient. Yeah.

Please, no. That verse though about Job, that just speaks so well to what John was saying at that in the verse 11. The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy. I'm so glad both of you brought at that point that the admonition is of the Lord for us to be patient and reflect his character. He is patient with us. Oh, thank goodness. Thank goodness. Yeah. Remember when we had Michael Wilcoxon and he said something about if God's commanding us to forgive seven times 70, don't you think he does the same thing?

And I thought, I hope so. That's a great thought that we're forgiving. He can be forgiving and he can be patient. Thankfully. JB, let's say I'm on a road trip and I'm listening to the podcast or I'm at home and I've been cleaning the garage, listening to the podcast. In the spirit of James, be doers of the word. What are you hoping our listeners do with what we've talked about today? Oh, such a great question to end a great conversation. Two thoughts. Of course, authorship questions and the New Testament are always complex, but I love this idea of thinking

of this authored this book, Being James, the brother of the Lord, Jesus' brother. There's so much to just resonate with what someone who had a close, personal witness of Jesus' life would highlight as really important. And to think about how much of his counsel is essentially follow the example of our Savior in his daily walk and talk that brings it home to imagine what kind of special witness James might have to share with us. And then the other one is, especially if we come away from this discussion, looking at ourselves pretty honestly, in the mirror, seeing where we may fall short or where we want to change. I'm sort of struck by James 516 as a place to just walk away from here.

Confess your faults one to another. And that's done appropriately in a different degrees and different ways. But I'm just gonna do this humility. And again, I appreciate both of you for being so honest and being able to talk about how we see ourselves in this. Confess your faults one to another and pray one for another

that you may be healed. The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man or woman availeth much. I feel this for me is I'm coming away from a conversation in the study of James, wanting to have a fervent prayer for some of the things that have pricked my heart and that I want to become something different. I would hope that maybe the beginning and the end,

James is encouraged to have faith in the power of prayer. The prayer that starts the restoration and a prayer that can change us. And if we offer up for a prayer, we'll be amazed at how effective that can be. I can't help but think about Mormon, this closing word is the Moroni, Moroni 7. Pray into the Father with all the energy of this heart that you may be filled with this love, which you have bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ. When he shall appear, we shall be like him.

This idea that a full energy of heart prayer and a fervent, a factual prayer can really change us and are walking, talk to follow the Savior. Beautiful. Thanks, JB. That was great. John, what a great day to sit and learn from JB Oz. Yeah, it's just good to see you as a friend to sit here and talk like this is great. The only

thing that would have made it better is if we were sharing a pizza or something, but it was yeah, no, no, an unripe apple. We should have been sharing this. I let them ripen this year. We should have been sharing that's almost dry. That's right. I let them ripen this year. Amazing. Yeah, we need to thank Laura for teaching such wonderful lessons to JB. JB, thank you for spending your time with us. Oh, thanks to both of you.

It really is great. So happy to be here. We love having you with us. We want to thank Dr. JB Haas for spending time with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, the amazing Shannon Swanson. We wanna thank our sponsors, David and Verla Swanson, and we always remember our founder, Steve Swanson.

We hope you'll join us next week. We're gonna talk the epistles of Peter coming up on Follow Him. Today's transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, follow him.co. That's follow him.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts.

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