Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Joseph Smith History 1:1-26 Part 1 • Dr. Maclane Heward • January 13-19 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

Can we all receive revelation from God? Dr. Maclane Heward examines Joseph Smith’s theophany and the impact of asking a question and how it changed the world.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/-lUQ4O2Au8kALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 - Part 1 - Dr. Maclane Heward04:33 Come, Follow Me Manual08:20 Asking God to guide our questions13:25 The 1832 account and the 1838 account15:09 Ideas of when to read each account18:11 University of Utah hoodie20:22 Taking a defensive position26:17 Different accounts from different questions29:31 Joseph’s life experiences influence the accounts32:26 D&C 20:5 - First Vision Account35:27 Joseph trusts his father37:03 Testimony through more than emotion45:01 Language, culture, and receiving revelation49:05 Lehi’s family have different spiritual experiences50:57 Diversity of experiences with God52:51 Dreams as revelation56:01 Brain churches vs Heart churches01:01:57 Assumptions undermine reality01:05:32 Thinking deeply about historical events01:09:33 The danger of taking offence on behalf of others01:12:48 End of Part 1 - Dr. Maclane HewardThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika : Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Coming up in this episode on Follow Him. He has this dream one night where he's accompanied by a guide in his dream and he's in this barren wasteland. He's walking. He has this conversation with his guide where in essence the guide says this represents the world and the fact that the fullness of the truths of the gospel are not found currently on the earth. But continue walking and you'll find a large log where there will be a box. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith and I am your host. I am here with my co-host, John by the way. John, I'm going to describe you this way. John, by the way, John, I'm going to describe you this way.

You are a disturber and an annoyer of Satan's kingdom. Wow. I know I disturbed and annoyed my mother's laundry room back in the day, but this is a bit bigger. That's from Joseph Smith history one verse. Joseph Smith says, I think Satan is aware that I annoy him and I disturb him. John, this week we have a good friend with us, Dr. McClain Heward. McClain, welcome to follow him. I'm so happy to be here.

We should say welcome back. McClain was with us a couple of years ago as we talked a couple of sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. John, this is a huge lesson. This is a critical lesson. Tell me when you think of the first vision, John, and then McLean Watts ask you, what comes to mind first? I just wonder, especially from a theological point of view, what are some of the most important events that have happened on the planet? This has got to be on the list. This is, why are we sitting here? We can trace it back

to this. And I love the fact we can trace it back to a teenage boy. That's pretty impressive too. McLean, I know you've spent a lot of time studying this, even before, of course, I asked you to come on the show. As you look ahead to today, what are you hoping happens? I hope that we can see some larger narratives that begin in this moment, but then carry us into today. I hope that we can learn how to accurately and honestly utilize this narrative to strengthen us. But then also some false assumptions that we have maybe unknowingly

absorbed through this story. More than anything, just like Joseph, I hope that God can speak to each of us individually as we have this dialogue. The first vision is this moment where Joseph becomes converted to a God who is involved in his life. I'm hoping that all of us have that same experience where as we think carefully, we can feel a God who's involved right now with us doing what we're doing, trying to raise kids, trying to raise ourselves, trying to become disciples, covenant keepers, children of God, like He would want us to be. I love it.

I just imagine that morning where He thinks, I'm going to go out and say a prayer and maybe something spiritual will happen, right? Maybe I'll get an answer to my prayer and ushers in a new dispensation. This journey has started years before, years before. How many moments did he have where he hoped that what he was doing would call down the powers of heaven? The answer didn't come.

And then as he walks into the grove, it makes me wonder where he's like, well, I've tried so many things. I've talked to my ministers. I've gone to the Bible. I've gone to all these different spaces. Now I'm going into the woods where I've been so many times.

I guess maybe I'll pray vocally. Try that out. When I got nothing to lose. Mm-hmm. Our friend, Steve Harper, who I'm sure we'll quote a couple of times today. Yeah. He's a teenage boy feeling convicted of his sins. He said, that's me. I've been there.

We've all been a teenager feeling convicted of our sins. What do I do? I'm going to read from the Come Follow Me manual. We love the Come Follow Me manual here at Follow Him. And then McLean, John and I are excited to read from the Come Follow Me Manual. We love the Come Follow Me Manual here at Follow Him. And then McLean, John and I are excited to learn from you. Here's what it says. The lesson is called, I saw a pillar of light. You might say the Doctrine and Covenants is a book of answers to prayers.

Many of the sacred revelations in this book came in response to questions. The question that began it all, the one that sparked the latter-day outpouring of revelation was asked by a 14-year-old boy. A war of words and a tumult of opinions had left Joseph Smith confused about religion and his relationship with God. Perhaps you can relate to that. We find many conflicting ideas and persuasive voices in our day. When we want to sort through these messages and find truth, we can do what Joseph did.

We can ask questions, study the scriptures, ponder, and ultimately ask God. In response to Joseph's prayer, a pillar of light descended from heaven. God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared and answered his questions. Joseph's testimony of that miraculous experience boldly declares that anyone who lacks wisdom might ask of God and obtain. We can all receive, if not a heavenly vision, at least a clearer vision illuminated by heavenly light. Wow, that'll spark your excitement to dive into this story. So with that, McLean, where do you want to take us? Our listeners are excited to learn from you.

With that introduction, it seems like we really ought to talk about this revelatory moment. A lot of what we have used the First Vision for in our day has been how do we learn from God? What truths do we learn from God? That's a really fruitful field to spend a little bit of time in and I think we can highlight a few things that really help emphasize some of the elements that lead to answers from God. One of the things that I think is really powerful is time. He spends potentially years, the 1832 account mentions that he's 12 when he starts this investigation. This could be years of him asking this one particular question.

And then in the account, in our own scriptures, we know that he's going to the Bible and it gets to the point where he actually loses some confidence in the Bible. Verse 11, while I was laboring, that's a really powerful word. You want answers to questions from God? Laboring might be what happens. While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contest of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God."

We know that he has attended different meetings, different church meetings. He's talked to ministers. He's gotten advice from individuals. He also seems to be receptive to the experiences of his family. Then he's left with this idea that how to act I did not know. Some of those elements here are really, really powerful. Just thinking what helps me to get revelation? What helps me to connect with heaven?

If we were to list some of those outside individuals, helping, scripture, God's words to previous prophets, personal wrestling. Now we know that this is the first time he prayed vocally, but this does not say that this is the first time he prayed on this subject. So you get all of these different things that he's engaged in to help bring about answers. Then I also think that there's a really interesting element here too of what questions is God most excited to answer? Is we want answers to specific questions. Perhaps one of the questions that we can ask is, Father in heaven, guide the question

that I'm seeking answers to. Section 46 of the Doctrine and Covenants seems to indicate that when we pray by the Spirit, our prayers are answered because we're praying by the Spirit. It can actually be directed in our prayer, during our prayer, how to pray. And in that way, prayer becomes revelation and revelatory because we're being guided by the spirit. So you get this powerful question of which church is true that I might join. Right. Move. Yeah. Yeah. That's another really important element here. This is not information for information's sake, but information motivated towards transformation, which seems to be something

that God really is excited about. Information leading towards transformation. One of the questions, obviously he wants to know which of all the churches is true that he might join, One of the questions, obviously he wants to know which of all the churches is true that he might join. But one of the questions that isn't as clear in the 1838 account is that one of the motivations of this is a remission of his sins. That's really, really fascinating to me to think in all the questions that he's seeking answers for

and all the questions that he's seeking answers for, in all the questions that we're seeking answers for, can we also include a desire to be remiss of our sins? Elder Scott taught so clearly about Revelation on so many different occasions. One of the things that he says is that you can increase your chances of receiving revelation by purifying yourself. Which interestingly enough, Hank, that is one of the outcomes of my conversation with you when you're like, hey, come on the podcast.

I'm like, okay, yeah, I love hanging out with Hank and John. But then when you said, come on the podcast for the first vision, come talk about the first vision. And I was like, no, no, no. It's so big, right? It's so big. It's so important. It's so important.

And so the interesting thing that happened naturally was this self reflection. I found my heart as late as this morning, as late as last night, making different decisions because I was like, I can't do anything that would get in the way of God speaking today. In this topic, we need God to speak. It's been really interesting to me to think, okay, well, as I seek for God help me to know what we could talk about today, I've felt motivated towards also, and please could you cleanse me of my sins so that I'm ready. That's really an important dynamic here. Part of the pattern of being close to God, having visions open to us of what God would have us do is this idea of being justified,

being cleansed, pronounced clean from God. And that facilitates the opening of the vision. Another thing that was really interesting to me as I prepared is, you know, as I was wrestling with whether or not I should agree, our friendship was at stake, right? It was like, how much do I like Hank and John? Like, what, what? There's so many people. And that also added this element of seriousness

to the topic. But the other thing that happened, and I hope that this is helpful for listeners, I started to think, am I taking this more serious than I do any other experience with people? Because the Abrahamic covenant would make me think that every time I interact with somebody, there's as many as the sands of the sea behind them. And if we can influence people, then it's that same truth. C.S.

Lewis talks about everyone that you interact with is not just a mere mortal. But then let's add a Latter-day Saint lens to that. It's also true that everyone that you interact with is not a mere mortal, but also there are countless, not just mere mortals, behind them in generations to come. Those steps of Joseph really leading to anticipatory to the answer that comes are so important for us to recognize. McLean, as you talked about the years that go by,

it's interesting for us, It's 26 verses we're reading. You could probably do it in five to 10 minutes. You could read this whole thing and think, oh, that was a pretty quick process. Yet the time that's going by for him. And then I noticed these words that you brought out in verse 11, laboring under extreme difficulty. This wasn't what we might say is a 30 minute nice video about the first vision. This is long and a difficult process for him, which the wrestling is important. It's worth the wrestle, as Sherry Do might say. Now, McLean, for those of us who are pretty brand new to the church or to church history, you've mentioned 1838 account, you've mentioned 1832 account. Which one is the one right in front of me in my scriptures? This is the 1838 account. He begins the account in

1838, but doesn't really finish until 1839. At some some point this morning we need to talk about what this represents. You know, he begins this account very clearly describing what the account is and we need to be mindful of what this account represents because it may help us to apply it effectively and appropriately in our life. Owing to the many reports which have been put in circulation by evil disposed and designing persons. That's quite the opening line. This account represents this element of I've been

persecuted, the church has been persecuted. There's been lies told. Let me tell you the truth about the rise of the church. So that's really, really important to recognize. Interestingly enough, in Doctrine and Covenants section 20, this is called the Articles and Covenants of the Church of Christ. This is a really powerful section. According to section 18, this was meant to be foundation of the church and of the gospel and of his rock. That's what the Lord reveals in section 18 verse 4. This revelation is going to be really foundational. Now section 20 actually

ends up being a doctrinal, a historical, and a policy procedural foundation for the church. The historical elements that are included as the foundational historical elements of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes the First Vision. This is part of the historical foundation of the church. It's really important. That being said, this account and the telling of this account, it's a narrative given in time and in space, but the first vision is the thing that is the historical foundation. And so you have the 38 telling of the story, but then you have the 1832 telling of the story. Like we already mentioned this first line, owing to the lies, owing to the persecution. Let me give you the facts as I have them. The 1832 account in contrast is a conversion narrative. So in essence Joseph is saying, let me tell you the story of God pronouncing me

clean and really of the beginnings of my relationship with God, the father and Jesus Christ, the son. So that being said, the first vision becomes central to the historical realities of the church. First vision and the Book of Mormon are really foundational to the historical footings of the church. The tellings of those stories can be different based on the setting that Joseph is telling them in.

And even his reasons. Mm-hmm. For example, if you're feeling isolated and alone in your testimony and convictions of Jesus Christ, if you're feeling like you're the only kid in your high school who believes in Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, this 1838 account might help give you strength and power

in your solitary conviction. You might feel persecuted. People might say things to you that feel like they're cutting, they're jabs, they're difficult. This narrative might give you some direction on how to engage. If you're the young person that feels like, is God really there for me? Does Christ really have a portion of His power and atonement that can bless my soul and lift me? The 1832 account, that might resonate with you a little bit more. But if we're not careful, we'll read the 1838 account over and over and over again. And unknowingly we'll incorporate a persecution narrative

into our life situation. Let me give you an example that is close to home. I just completed a master's degree at BYU in religious education. It's kind of historical, it's kind of doctrinal, and it's kind of educational. And I decided I wanted to do a PhD. So I applied to the university of Utah for their PhD in history. And of course I got turned down.

Why? I'm Latter-day Saint and I got a master's degree at BYU and I was a seminary teacher at the time. And I was not welcome at the university of Utah because they don't like people like me. That was my first reaction when I opened the rejection letter. Funny enough, my wife actually, a month later, after I got the rejection letter, she came to me and she's like, I don't, I don't know what to do with this. And she, she gave me this bag. I opened I don't, I don't know what to do with this. And she she gave me this bag, I opened it up and there was a University of Utah hoodie.

She'd bought me a hoodie before she knew that I was going to get turned down. And she's like, I don't know what to do with this. I do wear it because it tells me that my wife believes in me, even when the University of Utah doesn't. But anyway, I had bought into this persecution narrative so strongly that I initially wasn't capable of seeing my own inadequacy. Wow. Right? Because it was like, if you're a victim, then it's the other person's problem. It's the other person's fault.

It's their eyes that are wrong. You're good. You're fine. You're where you should be, but it's the other person's eyes that need to change. I had to take a really deep look at myself and honest look at myself and say, is this because I'm persecuted or is this because I'm just not a good candidate for that particular program? If I'm really honest with myself and with you, it's because I wasn't a good candidate. I didn't have a history master's degree.

I didn't have a history undergrad. And the important part about that is that then when I take ownership and I recognize that, oh, actually this might be partly just because of what I've done in my past. That's a position of power that helps me to change. A few weeks ago, I got an email. This happens occasionally. It was a young girl named Kate from a Catholic high school in Florida. And she said, Hey, I'm doing this project in high school about the Mormons. That's how she said it.

Can you answer some questions about Mormons? And I was like, yeah, I think I could probably do that. So she gave me a series of eight questions. the Mormons, that's how she said it. Can you answer some questions about Mormons? And I was like, yeah, I think I could probably do that. So she gave me a series of eight questions. I got to type my response and I sent off my response. And then I read over my response after I'd already sent it. Cause that's what you do. You send it and then you read over it, right?

So I read over my response and I realized persecution narrative influenced my responses. I was combative in some ways. She didn't realize that I was combative because I was sneaky about it, but I realized that's not the approach that I want to take. I don't want to be combative. Especially automatically assume a defensive position.

This is what Elder Ballard said about this. He said, this is in 2009, BYU graduation actually. Recently, I saw some research about how other people see members of the church. I've long been interested in this subject. And then he mentions that he's part of missionary program of the church. This particular piece of research made an interesting observation. It suggested that members of the church can sometimes appear very defensive to those who are not members of the church. One respondent went as far as to say that when Mormons are explaining their

beliefs, their language is in terms that suggest they are expecting criticism. And then elder Ballard goes on to say, I can understand the reason why. We had an extermination order issued, right? Our first prophet is murdered. Like there's reasons for this. I was talking to a colleague just the other day. There's potentially still reasons for this, but was talking to a colleague just the other day, there's potentially still reasons for this, but then he says this, yet this isn't 1830 and

there aren't just six of us anymore. Could part of the defensiveness that others sometimes see in us suggest that we still expect to be treated as a disliked minority forced to flee to the West? In our interactions with others, are we expecting always to have to defend ourselves? If so, I think we need to make a course correction. And then listen to what he says.

He says, if we want to be respected today for who we are, then we need to act confidently, secure in the knowledge of who we are and what we stand for, and not as if we have to apologize for our beliefs. That doesn't mean we should be arrogant or overbearing. Respect for others' views should always be a basic principle for us. It's built right into the articles of faith, but when we act as if we are a persecuted minority, or if we expect to be misunderstood or criticized, people will sense it and respond accordingly.

Now, let me give you an example that's a little bit more fluid. Give me a topic or even a question that might be asked from somebody that is not a member of the church that we may have a defensive stance regarding. What about that plural marriage? Here's how I think I would respond in a way that isn't as defensive as I have in the past. Yeah, so for a time the church practiced plural marriage, can you imagine the type of faith that it would take? It was so hard for these people,

but they had so much faith and trust in God and in a prophet, they were willing to do it. And to be honest with you, their personal accounts suggest that God really did support them in it. Can you imagine how hard that would be? It's really an example of faith. Now, typically rewind the clock five or 10 years ago and somebody asked me about plural marriage. That's not necessarily the perfect response, but I would

often say, oh, well, not very many of us practice that and it was a long time ago and let's not really talk about it. Yeah and you're not defensive or angry or combative. You're just yeah this is how I see it. Isn't that beautiful? Joseph actually shows this in the account too. When he gives this history, he's I understand if you don't believe me. I wouldn't believe me if it weren't for me. If it didn't happen to me, I don't know if I would believe myself believe me if it weren't for me. If it didn't happen to me, I don't know if I would believe myself. That's a powerful place for him to be. And he's like, this does require faith. And I understand that and

acknowledge that. But let's move forward with that perspective. I really like that, McLean. It's, hey, I get it. This is a hard thing to grasp. I really like that. I like that confidence. I don't have to defend. I don't have to automatically go into debate mode. I can just say, yeah, yeah, we have some pretty tall orders. What would you call them? Tough requests or faithful people? Yeah. That is faith. That is religion. Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Jesus Christ appeared in a physical body to Joseph Smith. That is also miraculous. Inherent in being a religious person, I accept that there are things that I

cannot explain completely. And that's okay. For me, that's beautiful because it provides a state of humility. And humility is really important in my relationship to God, which Joseph, he exemplifies that. I don't know where to go, so I'm going to go to God. That humility is necessary for what is going to happen in the First Vision. Thank you McLean. I think of a Q&A. These were different Q's that brought these A's. One of the answers was the 1838-1839 account owing to the many reports. And the 1832 account maybe came from a different question.

Would you notice that the word testimony begins with a test? Would you notice that the word question begins with a quest? And a quest is a long arduous search. You talk about Joseph Smith since he was 12, laboring under extreme difficulties. That is a quest. A question today we can ask Siri or Alexa or Google, question in a matter of seconds. But a quest is a long, arduous search. We've come to expect Google speed answers to golden questions that require laboring. I also love what you said about his main in the 1832 account was forgiveness of my sins. You know what it reminded me of? Here's Enos in the Book of Mormon. Well, let me tell you of the wrestle which I had before God, before I obtained a remission of my sins. That's how his one and only chapter starts.

Here's how I got a remission of my sins. What more important topic individually is there for all of us? One of Joseph's accounts begins more that way than, like you said, the footings, the establishment of the church. If I remember right, Bruce R. McConkie said that if you have the same question that prompts the revelation, speaking specifically in the Doctrine and Covenants, then you can treat the revelation as a personal response from God to you. That helps us to think, well the questions that motivate these responses and narratives are really important and they

can help us to apply those really beneficially. McLean, you talked about setting. If I remember right, you are the church history expert here. How long have you been teaching, McLean? I started full-time as a seminary teacher in 2009. So I went on a mission 2003 to 2005 and then started teaching the MTC and then student taught in the seminary and then started seminary teaching and and now at BYU in Church History and Doctrine. Wait a second, did you ever get

to the U? Did you go somewhere else? What happened? So I was turned down at the U and then I applied to Claremont Graduate University and ended up going there for a PhD. So we lived in Southern California for a year. This sounds like a country song, but God's greatest answers sometimes are no. Say the title of the country song. God's greatest gift is unanswered prayer.

Yeah. Brother Brooks of the 70. We ended up going to Southern California to Claremont and it was just a much better fit. Did you get a Claremont hoodie? That's important to know too. Yes. Claremont is also red and black in color. Kind of fits. You could ironed on something on the other red one. Yeah, exactly. I wore my red shirt today because you went to Claremont. in color so kind of ironed on something on the other red one yeah yeah exactly I wore my red shirt today because you went to Claremont the reason I asked

McLean is so far we've talked about two accounts 1832 and 1838 correct me if I'm wrong 1832 Joseph you talked about this conversion remission of sins narrative. 1832, he has some time alone. Someone had broken their leg. I think it's Newel K. Whitney had broken his leg and Joseph was waiting with him. And then in the 1838, 1839 account, I know that 1838 and 1839 are the worst years of Joseph Smith's life.

Liberty jail. Yeah. Yeah. Are those settings going to make a difference on what I get? Let me tell you, this is from Stephen Harper's book. He starts this account two weeks after Oliver Cowdery sends his resignation letter leaving the church. Can you imagine? Speaking of foundational events, he's one of the earliest people.

And Joseph has just received his resignation letter. And then 1838 goes from bad to worse. You start off in Kirtland where there's so much apostasy. If I remember right, Ron Esplin says that this could be as much as 30%, 40% of the leadership of the church is having problems with Joseph this time. So you go from Kirtland and then you move to Missouri and it goes from bad to worse. And then there's violence and there's killing of Latter-day Saints, pillage and everything else and led an extermination order. And then you're in prison and then you get out

of prison and you make it to Nauvoo, what will become Nauvoo. It's just a swamp at that point. The burdens of the last year, the persecution dramatically altered your life. That's gonna come out in your writing. Yeah. So I actually just called Steve this morning

and asked him a few quick questions like, hey, help me not say anything wrong here. He did not promise that I was gonna not make any mistakes. But one of the things that is really interesting in this account, persecution becomes a real central theme in our Pearl of Greater Price account. He talks about in verse 21, where just a few days after he's with this Methodist minister, he tells him of the account and just listen to what he says. I took occasion to give him an account of the vision, which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior. Just listen to what he says.

And then this is an interesting transition here. I soon found however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among the professors of religion and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase. Talking to Steve a little bit about this, I said, you know, it's interesting. One of the things that he brings up in his book is that we don't have any historical record that Joseph tells anybody, but this minister about the first vision account in the first decade. The first mention of the first vision we have in any written form after it happened is actually

Doctrine and Covenants Section 20 that briefly mentions that this took place but it doesn't really mention that it's the first vision of Jesus Christ and the Father. So let me just read this verse to you. This is what it says, this is verse 5, section 20. Once again this is the historical foundations of the church. After it was truly manifest unto this first elder that he had received a remission of his sins, he was entangled again in the vanities of the world. If you're not really careful you'll miss that that's a reference to the First Vision.

What we've got here is after he was truly forgiven of his sins, received remission of his sins, that's the First Vision. And then it says he was again entangled. That's the time between the First Vision and Moroni's visitation. And then verse 6 helps you to see that but after repenting and humbling himself sincerely through faith God ministered unto him by an holy angel whose countenance was as lightning and whose garments were pure and white above all other whiteness. Think about this that reference to the first vision is still very obscured. Is it possible that part of it being so obscured is because of the initial interaction with that minister, still after a decade, he's feeling like,

uh, maybe I shouldn't tell all the details here. Right. It's a traumatic experience to share something so personal and so wonderful and have it rejected, completely rejected, not only took it lightly, but got angry. Great contempt. Especially as a young teenager, I would be very reluctant to share again. Last time I talked about this, this happened. I'm not doing that again. Yeah. Now remember when he has this visitation for Moroni, he's visited three times that night.

We'll get into this next week, but he sees Moroni three times that night. And then he goes out and starts working and he can't do it. He's too exhausted. Whether that's from staying up all night or from the visitation that really drains his strength. Or both. Being the presence of, yeah, or both. As he's walking back to the farm, he meets again Moroni.

Right, he passes out, he meets Moroni again and Moroni is like, why didn't you tell your dad? I used to think of this as like, why didn't he trust his dad? What does this tell us about his relationship with his dad? The more I've studied it, I don't think it has to do with his interaction with his dad. I think it has to do with his interaction with that minister. He says to Moroni, I didn't know if my dad would believe me.

Moroni says, he will believe you. Now you get this angel having to say to Joseph, trust your dad. Trust your dad here. So he goes back. What's the response of his dad? He weeps. That's beautiful. Let's think about this from our perspective here.

When your child comes to you with a spiritually sensitive topic, we should recognize that our reaction can dramatically impact that child for a long time. So we've talked about how this is revealing patterns. If you want to know answers to some of your questions from God, first of all be willing to adjust your questions. Go to appropriate reliable sources. What I think we can't do, we can't do with the first vision is we can't say the answer will come in this way. Yeah, look like this.

It doesn't necessarily look like this. Now I remember being a young scout. You remember when we used to do scouting? Go way back, way back. Way back when. And I was on a scout camp out summer camp and our leaders, great, great leaders, I had phenomenal leaders, but they said, sometime this week, I want you to go into the woods, like Joseph did, and just kneel down. This is a beautiful moment for the God of heaven

to touch your heart. I was probably 13, 14, I was probably the same age as Joseph. I still remember in my mind, walking up this hillside and being a really, really intelligent and gifted human, you know, there's this nice treeed area and I ended up kneeling down right in a pile of rocks. I remember being very uncomfortable. Kneel in the soft leaves or the rocks. I'm kneeling there and I'm praying. I remember thinking, you know, I'm not Joseph. I'm probably not going to see God and Jesus Christ. But the probably was part of my story, right? Yeah.

It's like, probably not. Probably not. And I'm probably not going to see Moroni because he's kind of like first tier angel. But am I important enough to pull a second tier angel? Get the B team. Could I get Tiankham to come? Like, could he show up and answer my prayer? I walked down off that hill and I felt like I didn't receive an answer, which was for me a problem. It was a spiritual problem. I was thinking in my mind, I'm gonna have to go home from scout camp

and tell my parents that I found out that the church is not true. How do I have that conversation? That's a lot for a 13 year old here. Yeah. So later that same camp out, our stake president and my next door neighbor, his name's President Wayne Watson, he came up, he's my best friend's dad.

I knew him really well. We had a campfire program, you know, the end of this story. He starts off by talking about the church a little bit and talks about testimony and talks about God's truth. And then he bore witness. And my little boy moment, this is my first moment where I felt like Jesus Christ and Father in heaven are real. They seem to know me. Now I've just told you a narrative story about coming to know some truth and if

we're not careful this first vision has led me to an intense emotional experience. Well, what if I have a student or a child in my family who the language that God uses to teach them truth is not intense emotional experience? One more quick story. Later in life, we have children now at this point and my six year old, I think he was about six, our oldest son, he's contemplated, he's the typical oldest. He's a great, great, great boy. This was 10 years ago now. He said to me, dad, I don't know if I believe in God.

And I remember thinking in my mind, how do I answer the six-year-old? Like, he's so young. And I remember thinking to myself, I can tell him some principles that go into his quest for his answer, but I don't think I can tell him about the outcomes. As I was talking to him, I was like, you might feel, you might experience, if we're not careful we'll speak and talk about testimony and even

the first vision in ways that make our students and our listeners think intense emotional experience, that is the way that God speaks to us. But let's just be careful. Doctrine and Coven, section eight, I will tell you in your mind and your heart. But yet culturally, we never say, I thought the spirit today. We don't say that, but those are just two ways.

A third way, Alma 32 talks about the fruit of the spirit, right? The outcomes, take a seed, plant it, let it grow a tree, pick the fruit, eat the fruit, and when you know it's good, then you know that that seed was good. This is years of a process. We bought a peach tree from the greenhouse that was already years old. And then they told us, don't expect to have peaches for another, probably two or three, maybe four years. Seven years? Seven years. So now you think about Joseph.

We go back to his account. Hank, you said it takes five minutes to read this. Well, if it only takes five minutes to read it, then surely God can answer my question in an additional 10 minutes. No, it took Joseph two years. It took Brigham Young two years, two years. How many of us are that patient to really think carefully Joseph takes years for this answer to

come? The answer might be, well, after two or four or six or seven years of living my covenants, I can now look back and say, I appreciate the man that I'm becoming as I live this covenant oriented life. That might be your answer from the spirit

and it might not be emotional. That's, I think a really important topic to discuss. One of my, the assignments that I give my students at BYU is I want you to do research on the spiritual method of coming to know truth. And then I want you to write personally after you've done this research how does this look individually for me and what I'm trying to cultivate in the student is this idea of here's what prophets and Apostles have said about this

investigative process, this quest that I'm going on. But here's how it's unique to me. Here's how God is treating my relationship with him as an individual relationship between me and him. We need to actually provide a lot of room for students, a lot of room to say it might be this, it might be that, it could be that, it could be a combination. And Moroni even brings this up. Listen to what he says, Moroni chapter 7, verse 23 and 24. God also declared unto prophets by his own mouth that Christ should come. Dr. Incovance section 46 says that some people are given the gift to

know by the Spirit. The next gift listed is that some people have to believe on their words. Does that mean that they don't have the spiritual feelings that we might? Maybe. But then look at this next verse, verse 24, And behold, there were diverse ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good. And all things which are good cometh of Christ. There's all these different ways. And thinking about this with Joseph Smith's family, is there a reason that God could speak to Joseph through visions? As a historian I say yes absolutely. Lucy Mac Smith and Joseph Smith Sr. both had dreams and visions, both of them. If Joseph would have grown up the son of the minister that he told the

fish fishing to, would God have been able to speak to him through dreams and visions? Doesn't sound like it. He wouldn't have been taught that way. Yeah. Yeah. It would not have been a language that God could have used because God speaks to us according to our language. We might need to be a little bit more conscious and say, there's a lot of different ways that God can speak to you. So my brother's a pediatric psychiatrist, which I can't even spell those words. In the pre-earth life, he got an extra portion. I think that when God was divvying out smarts, the bottle slipped into his tank of preparation.

I was talking to him about this idea of section 46 talks about there's some that believe because of the power of the spirit teaching them. And then some have to believe on their words. And it was like, I wonder if, is this saying that there are some people that maybe have a reduced capacity to feel the spirit and could that be just because of who they are? Could it also be because culture is moving away from emotions being a

way to know something either culturally or just personally and in capacity to feel the spirit in those ways. So I was always talking to him about it. He described this condition called, I don't know if I'm going to say this right. Okay. Sorry, sorry, bro. We're going to let the computer say it.

Alexa thymia. Alexa thymia. That guy, Alexa thymia. Alexa thymia is an inability to identify and express or describe one's feelings. Wow. It's an inability to express or feel or understand your emotions. Now this is the part that's crazy to me. The estimates range between 10 and 15

percent of people experience this. Think about this. Think about the reality of this. If God can only speak to us through our emotions and 10 or 15 percent of people have a reduced capacity to understand or feel or comprehend or distinguish between emotions, that's a problem. We have to be able to talk about different ways that God speaks to his children because we're all different. It reminds me of Jane Clayson Johnson. She wrote book, Silent Souls Weeping, Depression Sharing Stories Finding Hope. She talks really clearly about how when you're in moments of depression, it feels like you have no capacity to feel

or a reduced capacity to feel. Imagine this, in your worst, hardest moments, the heavens are blocked. If you believe that that's the only way that God can speak to you through your feelings, then if you're having a depression moment, a mental health, a brain health moment, as Jane Johnson would say, that reduces God's ability to speak to you. If we reduce the languages that he speaks with only to emotion. Our good friend, Robert Millet, the Dean of BYU religion and a stake president at the time went

through a moment of brain health challenge after his heart attack. And he said that he didn't fill the spirit. Here's a stake president. He's the Dean of religion at BYU. He should be filling the spirit like he had for decades before. And in this moment of mental health challenge, he couldn't. This I hope is in some ways a balm of Gilead for our listeners to think,

okay, Joseph is going to give us a pattern for how to receive answers for my prayers, but not a pattern for how the answers are going to come. He's called to be a prophet, that's going to be different than me, but I can have a personal relationship with deity. It's just going to look different. It's going to be individual. That's a beautiful positive. One by one ministry. Book of Mormon starts with Lehi who has a vision. Now, we don't have Lehi's backstory. How did that long laborous process work for Lehi? And then he tells Nephi. Nephi gets an answer to a prayer that's pretty direct. Nephi tells his brother Sam who believes on the words of his brother.

That spiritual gift you just mentioned. Sam's just like, yeah, and believes him, which is great. Saraiah, does Saraiah say, oh, I'm crying, I feel the spirit, I have a burning in the bosom? Nope. She's telling Lehi, I hate it when you kill the boys by sending him back to Laban. And all of a sudden, the boys come over the hill with the plates of brass and Saraiah says, now I know my husband hath been commanded to flee into the wilderness. Now I know because the Lord

has protected my sons. And maybe there's more about Saraiah, we don't know. For her it was this logical thing. God spoke to her. Look at all those different ways. Look at all those different ways even in the beginning of the Book of Mormon. And I remember as a student at BYU going through the same thing. How am I supposed to feel this? Some of the best decisions I ever made were sitting in the Marriott Center and they weren't at basketball games. They were at firesides. I walked in fuzzy about priorities or school or whatever and I left going, I need to stop doing this. I need to start doing this. And it dawned on me.

That's for me how I feel God speaks to me is clarity. Didn't make me cry. Didn't get a burning in the bosom. Nope. I just was up. I need to do this. I need to stop doing this. I'm so grateful that God speaks to different people differently. I'm so glad you brought that up McLean, because I think a lot of people will be

going, Oh, thank you. As a teacher, we're all put in capacities as teachers in the church, whether that's a ministering sister, whether that's an elders quorum instructor, whether that's a father, whether that's a brother or a sister or a mother. We're all in these capacities to teach that needs to alter the way that we discuss and talk about revelation and how we help people go through this process. We want our faith to be passed down from generation to generation. faith to be passed down from generation to generation. We want that so badly because it's such a

beautiful faith in theology. But if we're not careful, then we will cause more problems than we want to. So now I want you to think how would a teacher teach a lesson, recognize the spirits there, but help to create space for a diversity of experiences among their students. Our assumption is that people feel things similar to us. We might say things like, can you feel that?

A student whose language at that particular time in their life needs to be the fruit of, may be frustrated by saying, I can't feel that. I didn't feel a thing. And it might turn them off for future feelings or in future settings where you might be teaching because they think, oh, this teacher is going to try, but I can't do it. Like that's not the way that God speaks to me.

So this is a caution, not just for teachers, but also for students. Be careful that you don't lock yourself into one way of knowing. What if God wants to teach you through dreams and you've already said, I just am not that kind of a person. We have to allow God the liberty to speak to us the way that he would like to speak to us. And to be very blunt with you, dreams are one way. Elder Scott taught in conference, he taught, let me tell you about dreams. And he told us a few ways that we can know if our dream is revelation.

It's been really fun for me as a teacher to bring up this idea of dreams. I'll say Joseph Smith Sr. and Lucy Mac Smith both had dreams. It allowed for space to Joseph to have religious expression beyond just what might have been the typical. And then I'll say to my students, I have to set the stage a little bit. Dreams are one way that God teaches us and they're personal and they're private and they're sacred. As you think about the dreams that you've had, have you ever woken up from a dream and just thought that was actually kind of spiritual? That was interesting.

And maybe you didn't really think a lot about it, but just like, oh, that was a different sort of thing. God can speak through dreams and then I'll say just by the raise of hand how many of you have had an experience similar to that where you woke up and you thought wow that was that was kind of cool. In some classes it's as much as 50% of the students will raise their hands. Listen to what Elder Scott said, revelation can also be given in a dream when there is an almost imperceptible transition from sleep Listen to what Elder Scott said, accompanied by a sacred feeling for the entire experience. The Lord uses individuals for whom we have great respect to teach us truths in a dream because we trust them and will listen to their counsel. It is the Lord doing the teaching through the Holy Ghost. However, he may in a dream make it both easier to

understand and more likely to touch our hearts by teaching us through someone we love and respect. That's Richard G. Scott, How to Obtain Revelation and Inspiration for Your Life, April Conference, 2012. I was talking to my kids about this around the dinner table. It was really a fun conversation, to be honest. In fact, I even told him one of the dreams that Joseph Smith senior had. He's not really connected to any specific religious denomination, but he's a God-fearing man.

He's a good man and he believes in God's truth. And he has this dream one night where he's accompanied by a guide in his dream. And he's in this barren wasteland. He's walking. He has this conversation with his guide where in essence the guide says this represents the world and the fact that the fullness of the truth of the gospel are not found currently on the earth. But continue walking and you'll find a large log where there will be a box and in that box will have contents and those contents

will be the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He continues walking and he gets to the log and he finds the box and he opens up the box and he partakes of this of the gospel and it fills him. It's beautiful, it's powerful, it's peaceful, just as you would expect. And then immediately these wild animals gather around him in the most threatening of way. And he has to run for his life. And he wakes up feeling peace, but also very aware, very alert.

Then you start thinking, well, how does that influence Joseph? And how does that dream lead to Joseph Smith Sr's reaction to Joseph of weeping? The dream that I love that Lucy shares, she's inclined towards Methodism first. She wants to go to the Methodist church, but at this time in America, heart churches and head churches don't like each other. If you're in a church that really is emotional, you look down on the head churches because they're so logical. They don't even know from God that what they're doing is true. It's all brain.

But then the brain churches look down on the heart churches like there's no reason behind the stuff that you're doing We have to have both anyway, Joseph Smith seniors father Has heard that they're attending some Methodist meetings. That's not really a great look for the Smith family They reason they don't like this so they actually go to the Smith family home and So they actually go to the Smith family home and the account in Lucy Mac Smith's history says that her father-in-law throws Thomas Paine's book, Age of Reason, into the house and bade them read it until they believed it. This idea of this

is too emotional of a religion. This hurts her. Joseph Smith Sr. comes to her and says, I don't think that you should attend Methodist meetings. In fact, let me just read this line to you. Cause I think it's so powerful how he says this to her and her reaction to it. He says, accordingly, his father and his brother, Jesse come to the house. They throw the book into the home.

They also told him Joseph Smith senior that he ought not to let me go to the meetings and it would be far better for him to stop going. Accordingly, my husband requested me not to go as he considered it hardly worth our while to attend any longer and it would prove of but little advantage to us and it gave our friends such disagreeable feelings. advantage to us and it gave our friends such disagreeable feelings. So the reason why Lucy is going to these different churches is because she's gotten sick a few years previous.

She thinks she might die. She's told the Lord, if you will save my life, I will find the true church of Jesus Christ. She's saved. So she becomes this seeker. Now imagine being Lucy Mac Smith and your husband says to you, it gives our, our neighbors disagreeable feelings for you to attend the Methodist church. Please stop. There's this moment of angst.

I don't know how that would go over with your wife's, if you said that, but my wife is both a literal and a spiritual redhead. That would not have worked out well for us. Then she goes into the woods. Lucy Mac Smith goes into the woods in this moment of difficulty and praise. She does not get an answer. And that night she has a dream where she sees two trees. One is inflexible and one is flexible. The flexible tree has a golden belt around it and the tree seems to bend

and move in the wind. It's animated. She says if it had been an intelligent creature it could not have conveyed by the power of language the idea of joy and gratitude so perfectly as it did and even the stream that rolled beneath it shared apparently every sensation felt by the tree for as the branches danced over the stream it would swell gently then recede again with emotion as soft as the breathing of an infant but as lively as the dancing of a sunbeam." She talks about this beautiful dream. The other tree stands stiff and obstinate and will not move to the wind.

No matter how hard the wind blows. She's given the interpretation of this dream that Joseph Smith senior is this flexible tree. And Jesse Smith, her brother-in-law, is the unbending tree. And while Joseph Smith Sr. will accept the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ when it's preached to him, Jesse Smith will always reject it. This moment of personal discord is answered through a personal private prayer in the woods, followed by a dream. Now you think about how God is using the Smith family

to prepare Joseph to have a diverse answer to his prayer. I think it's really, really powerful and beautiful. And it gives us a model to follow as parents and teachers and leaders to expand the way that God can communicate with his children and not to reduce it and simplify it. Hmm. John, do you remember just a couple of weeks ago when Dr. Sweat was here and we're reading Moroni's promise and he gets to verse five, By the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things. And so often as a teacher, that's where we stop.

Oh, what does the Holy Ghost feel like? Oh, it's like this. And then he said, but just turn the page, which of course I felt like I had not been a good teacher for the last 15 years. Turn the page. And here are all the gifts of the Spirit, the different way the Holy Ghost can manifest. Often we stop at verse five in Moroni's promise and say, okay, this is what the Holy Ghost is going to feel like. When if we just turn the page, there are diverse, diverse ways. We have people that try to undermine the reality of the First Vision account. They speak critically of Joseph.

He didn't really have this experience. One of the most common critiques is that if Joseph would have had this experience, it would have showed up in a newspaper, in a journal, someone else's journal, in some other place. It would have showed up. That's an assumption that a boy that's thoughtful, that hasn't had a significant education, that doesn't have a lot of financial capacity, would have gone out and bought some paper and written it down. That's an assumption about a lot of different things that would have happened if the first vision were to take place and I don't subscribe to that philosophy. Even in his account, Joseph Smith history verse 21, it says,

I soon found myself persecuted. The hard part about how soon did he find himself persecuted because of telling this. That's the part that is difficult and that's the part where these antagonists of the church would say, well it must have been within a year, it must have been within a few months, it must have been within a year. It must have been within a few months. It must have been within.

But the reality is that this begins a part of his narrative that is contemplative. We have the fact, a factual recall of information is I told a minister and he shot me down. That's a kind of a factual thing. But then he transitioned, he starts talking about, it felt as though I was persecuted from a very early age. Well, now we have to put this contemplative moment for Joseph into his setting when he's writing the account

as much as when he's experiencing the account. Putting that in its context in 1838, this is a time of intense persecution. It feels as though Joseph Smith is saying, it feels like from the earliest time of my life, I have experienced persecution over and over again. And how can I explain this? Well from a very early age, it feels like Satan thought I would be a disturber and a neuer of his kingdom.

I love what you're saying here in verse 21 the Methodist preacher he told it to treated it not only lightly and I love what you've told us about what when our kids tell us things treating it lightly means What being very dismissive and then with great contempt? I mean, how would you feel in that moment? Here he's sharing something pretty personal only lightly with great contempt and then verse 21 I soon found however my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion. I like the word profess. This is what we profess. And was the cause of great persecution which continued to increase. And here's what I was thinking.

Though I was an obscure boy only between 14 and 15 years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, Circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world yet men of high standing would take notice Sufficient to excite the public mind against me and create a bitter persecution and this was common I'm gonna all the sex all united to persecute me Interesting like you said people are saying it's not in the paper or whatever Well, he's an obscure boy. He's a kid of no consequence. He can't make sense of it. Why would they go after me?

These are men of high standing and I'm just a kid. And it's coming out of 1838 as well, where it seems like everybody in the world is after you in Missouri. McLean, you mentioned sometimes doing faulty research. Here's one thing I've noticed that people do. I'd love for your thoughts on this. Someone might read this story and then say something like, well, if this had happened to me,

I would do fill in the blank. I would have immediately gone home and told my family about it. Joseph Smith doesn't do it. So obviously he didn't have that experience because he didn't do what I would do in that situation. And for some strange reason, we call that research. I've really thought through this. So have you noticed that when people will criticize Joseph,

it's sometimes he didn't do what I would do. That's one of the fun things to do as a teacher, is to put your students in situations that make them think deeper than just a gut response. I try and let the people most intimately impacted by the experience talk more than me. That's what I want to have happen. And the thing that's interesting is their voices are so powerful. Jane Manning James, I don't want to reduce her life to ease.

It was not easy. She's an African-American member of the church. She lives through a number of different prophets. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff. I don't know if it was every single one, but she would write the prophet and say, is it now time for me to receive my endowment? And she's told every time, no. Your gut response could be, well, if I were her, I would leave the church. If I were her, I would. And we want to speak for these people. In her final testimony that's recorded, she lists the very prophetic leaders

who deny her access to the endowment. And then she encourages the Latter-day Saints to be better listeners and followers of these good and great men. Wow. One of the things that happens with this generation, the younger generation is they want to stand in solidarity with persecuted groups and minorities. That's a beautiful thing. If we're not careful, we might stand on the wrong side of these persecuted groups.

Now, for sure it is true that there's been racism inside and outside of the church. President Nelson and others have spoken very clearly about that. And if that happens, I want to be the first one to stand up and say, no more, stop it. Don't let it happen. It's not happening here. no more, stop it, don't let it happen. It's not happening here. And so I don't want to simplify or reduce this narrative, but I do want to say if there's

persecuted groups of people that I want to speak in behalf of, I want to stand next to them and let them do the speaking. I understand the pain and I understand that even today, individuals, different racial groupings in the church may experience persecution, but I'm going to choose to stand with Jane Manning James who stayed in the church. Elijah Abel, who was a priesthood holder, who stayed in the church. Green Flake, who stayed in the church, Isaac Thomas who's a contemporary member of the church who was the first individual sealed in the Salt Lake

Temple of African descent and his testimony is not easy but man it's powerful. He'll say the church isn't perfect but I'm so grateful for it. He says how do you feel today? He says, I feel joy. I'm going to stand with him and not presume to think that I can speak for him. If anybody wants to go further with this with McLean, you need not go far. Four years ago, McLean joined us for Doctrine and Covenants, Section 51-57. I've used this so many times, McLean, talking about Edward Partridge getting in an argument with Joseph Smith. Sidney Rigdon gets offended because Edward Partridge talks to Joseph Smith that way.

Ezra Booth gets offended that Joseph Smith would talk to Edward Partridge that way. Edward Partridge and Joseph Smith work it out. So the two parties who actually were in the argument, they work it out. And the other two who had nothing to do with it at all, stay offended almost for the rest of their lives. McLean, I have used that over and over with this same type of idea. We can't be offended for other people on other people's behalf, but we also can't assume that we know how they would react. If Joseph would have experienced this, then he would have. And boy, oh boy, I don't think I would like to base my convictions on that type of an argument.

We have to allow Joseph to be Joseph and me and you to be me and you, which is the same case with God. I want to say to somebody, you're going to fill the Spirit with X, Y, and Z. In order to be a good member of the church, you have to fill the Spirit. You have to feel it strongly and powerfully. Well, what if I don't feel? I can't put my experience on other people. And Joseph is not, he's not trying to do that. He's saying, this is the foundation.

Let me give you all the facts of the church and its growth and development as I have them in my possession. This is how it happened. And he's not saying, this is how it's going to be for you. I think we can learn some principles from his narrative, from his story, but there's also limitations to those narratives. Coming up in part two of this episode. I mentioned earlier that I had written this letter to this young Catholic student that

wanted to know about Mormonism. One of the things that she asked is, what is a misconception about your church that is prominent and that would be helpful to understand?