Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Joseph Smith History 1:1-26 Part 2 • Dr. Maclane Heward • January 13-19 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

Dr. Maclane Heward continues to explore the First Vision and discuss how God desires to be in relationship with his children.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC203ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/p9_tlNjC5DoALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 - Part 2 - Dr. Maclane Heward00:48 Background to the 1832 account03:58 Reading Joseph’s handwriting07:03 God’s desire to be in a relationship11:08 Forgiveness and mercy 13:12 18:30 Prophecy of Enoch15:32 D&C 109 - Temple parallels20:02 The Kirtland Temple’s importance23:02 The Endowment is the power to overcome the world27:17 Need drives relationship with God31:20 JSH 1:13 - Duty, discipleship, and taking time33:02 Take the leap35:38 Why does God make us wait?38:19 Elder Corbridge’s “Stand Forever”43:01 Real and emotional darkness46:35 Two metaphors49: 42 JSH 1:17-19 - A pillar of light54:30 The true and living Church01:01:02 Dr. Maclane shares his testimony01:06:04 End of Part 2 - Dr. Maclane HewardThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika : Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. MacLean Heward, Joseph Smith History 1. One of the things that I think is really powerful is to maybe spend a minute talking about the 1832 account and maybe get into it a little bit and get into some of the language of it. Because one of the things I think is really powerful is to think what are the principles that lead to him being converted to Jesus Christ. The other thing I'm really interested in doing is talking about from the 1832 account, how does Jesus Christ introduce himself?

All that the Savior could say about himself, what does he choose to say about himself in the first moments he spends with Joseph? I think it tells us something about the character of the Savior. Tell us that backstory about where this 1832 account was written down. The 1832 account that's written by Joseph, this is an account that comes during a year where Joseph is learning about the importance of writing testimony and convictions down, he receives a revelation I believe it's in November of

1832 where God says to him keep a record of the faith of the people that come in and out of the church but keep a record of the faith. This 1832 account fits into that time period and he's like Hank, there's a broken leg that needs to be healed. He's kind of in a holding pattern and he takes this moment to contemplate, think, ponder, and record this history. Yeah. Who's broken leg? It's Newell K.

Whitney. Smith had spent several weeks earlier that summer meditating in Greenville, Indiana, where he stayed with Newell Whitney as he recovered from a stagecoach accident that occurred as they and Rigdon returned to Ohio after visiting the Saints in Missouri. From Greenville, Smith wrote to his wife about remembering all the past moments of my life. So he's really contemplative and thoughtful. He told Emma he had wept about his sins and felt relieved by receiving God's forgiveness. When he recorded his first known narrative of his vision later that year, worrying about

his sins and receiving God's forgiveness, dominated the story. That's directly from Steve Harper's book. This is a phenomenal book, First Vision, Memory and Mormon Origins by Stephen Harper. And it's just come out recently within the last couple of years. Poor guy broke his leg. That was probably a painful accident. Yeah.

Oh man. Getting your leg stuck in a wheel. Ooh. Ooh. If they had to reset it. Oh man. The 1832 account, you go to the josephsmithpapers.org, josephsmithpapers.org and type in accounts

of the first vision. You can actually do this on Google pretty easily too, just accounts, the first vision, the website that pops up that's connected to josephsmithpapers.org. You can see the actual document. The only document that we have available of this account that's written in Joseph's own handwriting is the 1832 account. Now I like to do this. I'm going to do this with my kids as we study this account, but I'm going to pull up this account and I. Now, I like to do this. I'm gonna do this with my kids as we study this account, but I'm gonna pull up this account

in family home evening, and I'm gonna show them where Joseph's own handwriting talks about experiencing the first vision, because I want them to see how few links there are between them and Jesus Christ. Hmm, I love that. And McLean, I also can get this right on my Gospel Library app. If I hit library and hit church history, I can go down, hit first vision, and there they are. When you think about the links here, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world,

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world, appears to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith writes that down, and then I'm looking at his handwriting from when he wrote it down. That's not very many links between me and my family and my children and the Savior. One of the things that you see really quickly in

this First Vision account is that it is emotional. At the end of the first page he says, at about the age of 12 years my mind became seriously impressed with regard to the all-important concerns for the welfare of my immortal soul, which led me to searching the scriptures, believing as I was taught that they contained the word of God. Thus applying myself to them and my intimate acquaintance with those of different denominations led me to marvel exceedingly, for I discovered that they did not adorn their profession by a holy walk and godly conversation agreeable to what I found contained in

the sacred dispositority. Then he says, this was a grief to my soul. From the age of 12 years to 15 I pondered many things in my heart concerning the situation of the world of mankind, the contentions and divisions the wickedness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the minds of mankind my mind became exceedingly distressed for I became convicted of my sins and By searching the scriptures I found that mankind did not come into the Lord but they had apostatized from the true and living faith.

And then he says, this will pull into the first vision account, with all this conviction of his sins and his desire to be forgiven, he says, therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy, for there was none else to whom I could go and obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in the attitude of calling upon the Lord a pillar of fire he initially says fire then he crosses it out and says light a pillar of light above the brightness of the sun at noonday came down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the Spirit of God and the

Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee go go thy way, walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments. Behold, I am the Lord of glory, I was crucified for the world, that all those who believe on my name may have eternal life." Recently in conference, there's been an emphasis with Elder Kieran and Elder Renlund. They've both brought up the same idea. Elder Kieran has said that God is in relentless pursuit of us.

Elder Renlund recently alludes to Elder Kieran. He basically says, God is joyful when he can pronounce us clean. I feel like when I was young I felt as though God was not anxious to forgive me. I think it maybe grew out of this idea that he probably wasn't anxious to know that I had made a mistake. But yet the First Vision account, look at what the Savior says. Does He say, Joseph, my son, if you will repent, or if you will not commit this sin for the next or if I know that you're sincere, that's all dropped.

All of the baggage that I put on the Savior, that I expect of the Savior, we have to let him speak to not just letting ourselves and others speak for themselves, but we have to let him speak. letting ourselves and others speak for themselves, but we have to let him speak. He first says, he leads out with Joseph, my son, your sins are forgiven. That should tell us something about God

and his desires for us, his desires in our relationship with him. He doesn't put it behind other things that we need to do. In fact, he says to Joseph, go thy way, keep my commandments and obey my statutes. The obedience is post forgiveness, not pre. Is that always the case for us? Maybe, maybe not. But he seems very oriented towards granting this forgiveness. A delightful forgiver. It is his goodwill and pleasure to forgive us. Let me read this passage to you. This is from Elder

Renlund. He says, the Savior did all this because he loves his Father and he loves us. He has already paid the infinite price so he can quote claim all those who have faith in him and advocate for them. That was Elder Renlund quoting someone else. And then he says, Jesus Christ wants nothing more than for us to repent and come unto him so that he can justify and sanctify us. Often in scriptural language justification means cleansed from sin. So that he can justify us, cleanse from sin and sanctify us, make us holy. That's His goal, that's His hope, that's His joy. This is Elder

Rendon. In His desire, He is relentless and unwavering. He is relentless and unwavering in His desire to clean you and make you holy. That's beautiful. That is the God that we worship. The very first thing, I know your name and I'll forgive your sins. No wonder, what did he say later? The joy that filled my soul lasted, or for many days. Yeah. To know that God knows my name and that God forgives my sins. My soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice with great joy and the Lord was with me. This is Joseph's personal account of his conversion to Jesus Christ. Beautiful.

Almost beneath the text here, it feels as though Jesus is responding to an unasked question from Joseph because notice he says, Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven thee, go thy way, walk in my statutes and keep my commandments." So he cleanses him and orients him. That's also really merciful, isn't it? Sometimes we think that correction is unmerciful. I don't think so. This pathway of living will lead to success, Joseph. I cleanse you and I put you on this pathway. And then he says, and this is where I think he answers the question that Joseph doesn't give voice to, but it feels as though Joseph is saying,

Lord, how is it done? Behold, I am the Lord of glory. I was crucified for the world that all those who believe on my name may have eternal life." Joseph, do you understand? I purchased the opportunity to declare you clean on a cross 2,000 years ago and it is my pleasure to pronounce you clean and motivate you along a pathway that leads to sanctification. For this podcast I went to the temple last night which is something that you do when you've got something big coming. I

went for a specific reason that began with the first vision. Joseph is in the presence of God here. I believe it takes Joseph at least another decade, but I don't think much longer than that before God starts motivating him to think, now Joseph is a prophet of God. Your task is to help bring people into my presence, not just you Joseph, but others. In 1830 he receives what he calls the prophecy of Enoch, which is Moses 6 and 7. He sees this account of Enoch beholding God and then Enoch prepares a people that aren't just of one heart and one mind

and dwelt in righteousness and there's no poor, but Jesus walked with them. Jesus Christ was with that people. He was in their community. And it's after this moment in 1830, December of 1830, that Joseph seems to be re-infused with energy in creating community and establishing Zion and he seems to have clarity in what that means. Meaning that he seems to see that God can be in the presence of the Latter-day Saints. That happens in December of 1830. That's really early in the Restoration. Now I'm trying to connect some dots here that create a larger narrative arc for the Restoration of the Church. Joseph also, when he uses the word Restoration, he uses it to talk about people to God.

Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Let me read this to you and you'll see uses it to talk about people to God. Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants, let me read this to you and you'll see very quickly what I mean when I say that Joseph uses the term restoration as in people to God. The second verse of Doctrine and Covenants section 84 says, Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church. We often talk about restoration in terms of the church. Not here, not in this revelation, and not typically with Joseph.

In fact, we don't really have examples of him talking about the restoration of the church. He doesn't use that phrase. The word of the Lord concerning his church established in the last days for the real restoration, for the restoration of His people. The Church is built to facilitate the actual restoration that God cares about, the restoration of His people. The first vision is restoring Joseph to the presence of God. Then in 1830 he gets this prophecy of Enoch where he sees, oh more than just prophets can be restored into the presence of God. In 1831 when he ordains the first people to the office of high priest in the Melchizedek Priesthood, he invites people to come to that meeting

prepared to behold the face of God. In 1835 when he calls the 12 Apostles it's taught to the 12 never cease striving to see the face of the Son of God. Now let's just keep going. Section 109 the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. Joseph prays and this prayer is given by inspiration prior to the dedicatory session but he says in verse 5, Thou knowest that we have done this work through great tribulation and out of our poverty we have given of our substance to build a house to thy name that the Son of Man

might have a place to manifest himself to his people. Section 110, when the Savior Himself Accepts the gift first of all interestingly enough the first thing he does is he declares them clean He declares him clean again as if he's saying I love when I get to do this Joseph I'll declare you clean and I'm gonna accept the temple and he says he says in verse 7, Behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here, and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house. I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.

It doesn't end there. Joseph, we know, is killed. Brigham goes to Utah. He gets there on Saturday. He's sick. Sunday, he is well enough to give a few brief remarks. There's just 150-200 people there. They have nothing. They have nothing. They don't know how they're gonna make the winter. They don't have any shelter. And on Monday morning, he's like like I'd like to go for a walk and he plants his cane and he says this is where we'll build a temple to the Lord and the spot is saved. They saved the spot and they

build the Salt Lake Temple there. In 1863, I don't want to summarize this. Let me just read to you this. I want to see the temple built in a manner that it will endure through the millennium. This is Brigham as the temple is just starting to be built. This is not the only temple we shall build. And then he says this, listen to this, there will be hundreds of them built and dedicated to the Lord. He says this, 1863, this temple will be known as the first temple built in the mountains by the Latter-day Saints and when the Millennium is over and all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve down to the last of their posterity, who come within the reach of the clemency of the gospel,

have been redeemed in hundreds of temples through the administration of their children as proxies for them. Speaking of the Salt Lake Temple, I want the temple still to stand as a proud monument of the faith, perseverance and industry of the saints of God in the mountains in the 19th century. Now let's conclude this narrative arc. Let me read you a couple

other statements. To each of you who has made temple covenants, I plead with you to seek prayerfully and consistently to understand temple covenants and ordinances. Spiritual doors will open. You will learn how to part the veil between heaven and earth, how to ask for God's angels to attend you, and how to better receive direction from heaven. Your diligent efforts to do so will reinforce and strengthen your spiritual foundations. That's President Nelson. Here's another one. The Lord promised, every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me and calleth on my name and obeyeth my voice and keepeth my commandments shall see my face and know that I am there are many

different ways to see the face of Christ and there is no better place than in his holy house that's Elder Anderson President Nelson says the Kirtland temple has unusual significance in the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Several events that took place there had been prophesied for millennia and were essential to the Lord's restored church to fulfill its latter-day mission.

The most important of these events occurred on Easter Sunday, April 3rd, 1836. Jesus Christ declared that he had accepted the temple as his house and made this stunning promise, I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house. This significant promise applies to every dedicated temple today. I invite you to ponder what the Lord's promise means for you personally." That was in April 2024 conference by President Nelson. Now, in case you haven't heard any of the things that we've previously said, I've got my conference edition ensign from October 2024, the last conference. I just quoted April 2024. Listen to

President Nelson again. He's just listed a bunch of temples that will be built. My dear brothers and sisters, do you see what is happening before your eyes? I pray that you will not miss the majesty of this moment. The Lord is indeed hastening His work. What is that work? It's restoration, restoration of people to him. Why are we building temples at such an unprecedented pace? Why? Because the Lord has instructed us to do so. The blessings of the temple help to gather Israel on both sides of the veil, restoration. These blessings also help to prepare a people who will help prepare a world for the second coming of the Lord. Skipping a few paragraphs he then says,

here is my promise to you, every sincere seeker of Jesus Christ will find him in the temple. You will feel his mercy, you will find answers to your most vexing questions, you will better comprehend the joy of His gospel. We ought not think that that will come without labor, without a little bit of a quest, but the vision begins with the first vision and is culminating with the dedication of hundreds of temples where God is inviting his people into his presence. This first vision is

powerful and beautiful and every time we go into a temple it is fulfillment of the first vision. I hope that you can see this narrative arc that really pulls the whole church history together into this great moment when President Nelson says, my dear brothers and sisters, do you see what is happening right before our eyes? Well, it starts with the First Vision. It starts with Joseph as a prophet starting to think, how can I restore people to God? How can I introduce people into the presence of God? It's a process that takes him decades to understand how God is going to help bring this about. But the temple endowment is not just power. If we think

about the temple endowment just as power, it has to be power to do something. If it's not power to do something, then it's not helpful. When I teach this to my students, I'll give one of my students my keys to my car and I say, I've just given you power, but what haven't I given you? I haven't given you where my car is and what it is. So the power of the endowment is a power to overcome the world and prepare yourself to be in the presence of God. That definition has been influenced by Anthony Sweatt, who's done some really important work on this topic. But the endowment is the power, the knowledge, the ability to

overcome the world and prepare to be in God's presence. Notice in President Nelson's talk when he says the Lord Jesus Christ will come again, what does he tell us to do? Get into the temples because it's there that you learn how to overcome the world and prepare for his personal experience with him. Do I know if I'm ready for the presence of the Savior? Well, when I recall the five covenants that I make in the temple, the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel, which requires repentance, the law of chastity. Can I manage this

relatively ubiquitous desire, the law of consecration? Can I take everything that I have and everything that I am and dedicate it to the restoration of people to God, restoring me, my family and others to God. If I'm working on those five things then I can have personal confidence that I'm ready to enter into God's presence. I expect that perhaps one of the first things out of his mouth might be, beclaim my son, I forgive you of your sins. Go walk my way, keep my commandments and it will sanctify you. You are now clean and you will become sanctified through the repetition of walking this covenant path.

All that begins with this beautiful, powerful first vision. Joseph doesn't know it. I love what you've done with that. The restoration of the church is about the restoration of people to God's presence. Because the church is it a thing, is it a building, it's an organization, but the point is the restoration of people to God's presence and it started with the First Vision. Thank you. Interestingly enough, his appeal to the Bible becomes undermined. This source of truth becomes undermined.

This source of truth becomes undermined because of the conflict with these ministers. So let's jump into this narrative here with Joseph talking about the biblical passage that really impacts him. That's interesting, McLean, that he's thinking, this is the one place I thought I could go was to the Bible. And now that's been pulled out from under me. I think that's a really important point, Hank. For all of us individually, there's this point where we recognize that we are insufficient in ourselves. If in some ways, if we don't get to that point, then we'll never really trust God.

We'll never really trust Jesus Christ. This is one that God is facilitating the use of the Bible to bring about the purpose of the Bible, which is connection with Him. That's really interesting. There has to come a time where nothing else works or else you'll never just say, okay, this is my one option. nothing else works or else you'll never just say, okay, this is my one option. Sometimes worry that there's not enough need. Need drives relationship with deity. And if you have no need in any way, if all of your needs can be financially solved, that might be difficult, but Joseph is not in that spot.

And it's very, very clear that that first vision, the 1832 account and the 38 account, both of them, he's in needs. Those needs are a little bit different, slightly different, nuanced in his tellings, but he absolutely needs. So let's jump into this account, verse 11. While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contest of these parties of that he absolutely needs. So let's jump into this account. Verse 11, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given him." Wow! In some ways this is the lesson of the First Vision that God cares about what is difficult about your life situation. It's really summarized there

very effectively. This is an interesting one because sometimes we'll say the 1832 account is account of his conversion but I would say that there's some converting happening here in verse 12. Never did any passage of Scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. Couldn't we say that's got to be the Spirit? I mean the Spirit is teaching him right here. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again.

Some consistency. We've talked so much about languages. This is one of those, it's constantly in my mind. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did. For how to act, I did not know. And unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I did not know and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had from some source but all the other sources have been exhausted I would never know for the teachers of religion of the different sects even the teachers I couldn't go to them couldn't go to the Bible of religion of the different sects understood the same passage of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in setting the question by an appeal to the Bible. And I would say here for your seminary students, there is one question that no one can answer for

you. It is, has Jesus Christ forgiven you? And I still remember the moment when I was sitting in the chapel as a young man, feeling similar to Joseph, convicted of my sins, feeling like maybe I'm not worried to bless the sacrament this week. And I remember praying and I remember that week partaking of the sacrament and it's the first time in my life that the sacrament was not honey I shrunk the snack. It was the first time that the sacrament filled my soul. It filled me and those moments come when we're desperate and we realize that there's one question that only God can answer. He's the only one that can deliver that mercy.

I noticed there you have mind and heart again. It seemed to enter into every feeling of my heart and I mind reflected on it again and again. Notice this too. What does it motivate him to do? The spirit motivates and it brings good fruit. The Spirit is speaking through many different mechanisms to Joseph. And if we're careful, that's a really great pickup. I hadn't actually noticed that before too, that we can see a lot of different languages that the Spirit's using for Joseph. He might not use all of those languages for us, but he can use some of them. Verse 13 starts with what you said before, time at length. At length, yeah. I would say to anyone, young or old, if you feel like it's been so long, when will the answer come?

Know that you are in good company. I had a friend, used to be in our ward, who said, I've never had that spiritual experience my whole life. I've oriented my life towards duty and commitment to covenant, but I've never had that. And to be honest with you, I look at him and I thank God for him because his example of discipleship is beautiful and powerful to me. He's teaching me something about discipleship that I don't learn personally.

I do have those emotional feelings, but his strength is manifest after 70 years of faithfully living without those intense emotions. And that is just as good to God as any other source of motivation to keep covenants. I find it interesting, John, you've commented on this before that as missionaries sometimes we want to rush this process. Here, read, pray, you know, it's true. Let's move you forward. And I think there's some patience that needs to happen.

I'm not saying one needs to know everything to be baptized. However, let people have the experience. McLean brought up Brigham Young was a couple of years. And that's so individual too, because sometimes it feels like if you wait too long to act, the fire of your faith is extinguished. It really is a challenging space to navigate that requires a lot of maturity to say,

Father in heaven, help me to know when I need to take this leap of faith. Cause it has to be a leap of faith. I mean, it's a leap of faith for baptism. It's a leap of faith for marriage. It's a leap of faith for all of the major covenants. It's like, I'm not sure, but leaps of faith are really important.

I like that verse 13. I came to the conclusion. God didn't tell me. I was like, I came to the conclusion. I've got to do something. Remain in darkness or do something about it. Yeah. I think that it's so beautiful

to how he sets up this scene to retired to the woods, beautiful, clear, early in the spring. And we don't know exactly what that would have looked like. That could have been relatively cold. Yeah. Early in the spring. Yeah. If it's too early, then the ground might be wet.

But I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally. Remember Elder Holland just recently in conference inviting us to pray more vocally. He says that there's something that happens when we pray vocally that's different. It changes us. Now you can hear your own voice. Yep. He'd previously designed to go to this place and then he was seized upon. Now look at how he describes this, which entirely

overcame me and had such an astonishing influence over me to bind my tongue so they could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. Is he thinking that his life might be over? Is it that far? Sounds like it. I was doomed. Yeah, maybe everything he'd heard about an angry God, he's, it's true he hates us and then he re-emphasizes that in the next verse it seized upon me and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair

and abandoned myself to destruction not to an imaginary ruin but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world with such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being, just at that moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light." Just in time. It's the fourth watch God showing up at the fourth watch, right? Elder Scott talks a little bit about this. Why? Why do we sometimes need time before God comes? Why is this process of revelation more difficult? One scholar said that we live in an

ouchless society, we don't want pain. We also want ease. When it's not easy we often abandon the pursuit. We're gonna be required to have a little bit of wherewithal, discipline, a element of discipleship. Isn't that crazy that those would be part of each other? Discipline and discipleship. Like we've got to push through some things. Is it okay for you to have moments where you read something about the church or where you think something about the church or where somebody tells you their interpretation or their assumptions about facts about the church or their narrative about the assumptions about the church. When somebody tells you something, you might be required to have patience and faith. You might have to do some

investigating that might last years. You might have to ask ministers and some of those ministers might not give you great answers. You might have to go to other ones. Some of those ministers might be members of the church where you say, I've learned this truth and it's hard for me now. It's made me think about the church in ways that I can't avoid seeing. Help me with this. You might have to go to five or six or seven or

ten or fifteen people. But remember that God says in section 52, he says, obey mine ordinances to avoid deception. If you can see the ordinances of the church and see them as, this is helping me become the man or the woman I want to be. I want to overcome the world, the negative influence of the world. Hold on to those covenants during moments of difficulty and over time clarity will come. That's my conviction. That's my experience too. You don't go to graduate school in religious history and not think really critically and deeply about your own faith. I had a secular

Jewish professor who questioned my belief in Christ in ways that caused me to think for months and months and it was like, oh it's a good question. It caused me to really really, and that's okay. Our faith will not be blind. We've got to get to the simplicity beyond the complexity. And the pathway to do that is holding to covenants and trusting in Jesus. McLean, John, I think both of you would agree

that this BYU devotional called Stand Forever by Elder Lawrence Corbridge could be a wonderful addition to what McLean has just taught us. I'm just going to read the first two paragraphs to whet your appetite. He starts his devotional this way, part of an assignment I had as a general authority a few years ago, I needed to read through a great deal of material antagonistic to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the events of the Restoration. That would be a fun assignment. There may not be anything out there of that nature I haven't read. Since that assignment

changed, I have not returned to wallow in that mire again. Reading that material always left me with a feeling of bloom. And one day that sense of darkness, same word Joseph Smith uses, inspired me to write a partial response to all such antagonistic claims I would like to share with you some of the thoughts I recorded that day. And although I wrote it for my benefit, I hope it will help you as well. And how many people have been blessed by Elder Corbridge's talk? We'll link it in our show notes at followhim.co, but you can Google Stand Forever by Lawrence Corbridge.

It is a blessing and he explains the same thing you just explained. McLean, which is over time, the truth will come gradually. When you get accepted into a PhD program, you have to accept your acceptance. I was accepted by the university, but I had to make sure that logistically I could get there and that I could feed my family. They still wanted to eat. It was weird. I know, but. So I was in that small little window and I had a mentor whom I love and has really helped me.

His name is Richard Bennett. Richard Bennett said, so you're going to Claremont. What will you do when the narrative of the church that you've learned your whole life doesn't match up with the history that you've learned? To be blunt with you, I didn't know enough to know what he was talking about. I didn't. So I fumbled through an answer. Like this was actually at my thesis defense that he asked this question. So it was almost like I was still on trial, right? So I had to come up with something. Luckily, I turned the tables on him and I said, what would you do Dr. Bennett?

And he said something that I'll never forget. And that has blessed my life so much. He said, whenever I read academic literature, I have that academic literature in one hand, and in the other hand, I have my scriptures. And I make sure I never let go of my scriptures. When I went to grad school, people said to me, you'll either lose your faith or your marriage in grad school. And the first reaction was, what are they doing in grad school? Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny because the first university social that I went to, they were serving alcohol and I was like, they're starting with my faith. That has helped me so much.

I make sure I read from the scriptures every day. Recently, this was in the past six months, I was going through a little bit of a dark moment personally, which we never tell anybody about because we're dumb that way. But I realized that my personal scripture study wasn't what it should be. wasn't what it should be.

I recommitted and within days I could fill the balm. I could feel the benefit. I'm so grateful for that. I have another friend, Spencer Fluman. He said once that he was serving as a bishop, a member of his ward called him and said, do you know about this part of the history of the church? Yeah, I know about it. Do you wanna know about it? And you're okay?

Oh yeah, I'm okay. I'm in the church 100%. And then the member of the ward said, I don't need to know about it. I just need to know that you're okay. Which is really interesting. And that's, I think plays into elder Corbridge a little bit. Keeping our scriptures close

and that relationship with God that it facilitates, right? I always try to start my scripture study with Father in heaven, help this to facilitate my relationship with thee. And that really was super helpful. But yeah, there is darkness and there's sometimes thick darkness. This reminds me of a great story where Lehi and Nephi, sons of Helaman, are in a prison and there's a thick darkness that covers them. And when I read this, I think of there's emotional darkness, there's also real darkness sometimes, but there's a man whose name is Amenadab and Amenadab sees Nephi and Lehi and people say, what are they doing?

And Amenadab says, they do converse with the angels of God. That's Helaman 539. Helaman 540 came to pass the Lamanite said, what shall we do that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us? What a great question if you're in a dark place. Amenadab, fellow prisoner says, verse 41, you must repent and cry into the voice even until ye shall have faith in Christ, which was taught unto you by Alma and Amulek and Zeezrom, all three of whom had an interesting past. Yeah.

And when ye shall do this, this cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you. What a great story for real darkness or for emotional darkness. How many examples are there of this in the scriptures? Yeah. Some of those darknesses may not be relieved, unfortunately, if it's mental health. So we've got to be able to say, can Christ speak to me despite the darkness of depression and anxiety, staying a little while, staying a while, maybe a long while,

can God speak to me in ways other than relieving the pain. Sometimes the pain isn't relieved. It's section 121 is the perfect example. Joseph's like, Oh God, where art thou? And you remember his response in verse 33, Joseph is get me out of this prison. Oh God, where art thou and where's the pavilion that covers thy hiding place? I can't even see the house that you're hiding in.

Please help the saints. And then God says, how long can rolling waters remain in pure? Not long. What power shall stay the heavens? What can stop God? Nothing. As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri

river in its decreed course. The Missouri river is a lake on wills. Ain't no puny human arm going to stop that. You might as well try to stop the Missouri river with your arm, then to hinder the almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints. If we're not feeling like God is pouring down knowledge upon us, we might have to reinterpret the language

he's using. Because he said, it's easier for me with my puny arm to stop the Missouri River than to stop him from teaching me. So even in my moments where I can't feel anything, he's wanting to teach me. How can I make it through? How can I think about learning a different way

or teaching or receiving? We've got to have that capacity to think in diverse ways. Somebody said once that they could only see the star of Bethlehem through darkness. I thought that was an interesting thought. I want to give two metaphors that a teacher could use this week. One is from Robert E. Hales. The talk is called Out of Darkness into His Marvelous Light. And he uses just an interesting analogy. He says, when I was a boy,

I used to ride my bicycle home from basketball practice at night. I would connect a small pear-shaped generator to my bicycle tire. As I pedaled, the tire would turn a tiny rotor, which produced electricity and emitted a single welcome beam of light. It was simple but effective, but I had to pedal to make it work.

I learned quickly that if I stopped pedaling, the light would go out. And then he just goes on to saying, some people ask, why do I have to go to sacrament meeting? Why do I have to learn the word of wisdom or pay tithing? Why can't I have one foot in Babylon? May I tell you why? Because spiritual peddling takes both feet. I loved it. This is a different analogy you could use. This is from Joseph B. Worthland, way back

in 1992, spiritual bonfires. He says, many years ago, large packs of wolves roamed the countryside in Ukraine, making travel in that part of the world very dangerous. These wolf packs were fearless. They were not intimidated by people nor any of the weapons available at the time. The only thing that seemed to frighten them was fire. Consequently, travelers who found themselves away from cities developed the common practice of building a large bonfire and keeping it burning through the night. As long as the fire burned brightly, the wolves stayed away. But if the fire were allowed to burn out and die, the wolves would move in for the attack. Travelers understood that building and maintaining a roaring bonfire

was just not a matter of convenience or comfort, it was a matter of survival. Just two little interesting analogies that fit this story. Don't you both think is darkness? I exerted my powers to call upon God. What did you say, McLean? I pushed and pushed through it. Pillar of light. President Nelson has said, he's calling for us to increase our discipleship.

This is going to require effort. So if there was somebody who is failing to abandon themselves or their faith in a moment of darkness, I would invite them to think what are their bonfires that they will keep burning no matter how dark the night gets. Elder Worthland gives this beautiful message where he talks about Fridays will come, these moments of difficulty, the Friday of the cross, but the Sundays, the victories over the cross will come too. So what are our bonfires that no matter how dark the night gets we've decided we will be duty oriented in

This way, this is who I am. This is my routine. This is my spiritual daily personal Acts of righteousness. This is what I do through the darkness. I think those are really really important and really powerful Alright McLean walk us through 17 through 19. I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head above the brightness of the Sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. Which the contrast, the darkness contrasted with the light. It really emphasizes the power of the light. Same thing happens in our life. Those dark moments will emphasize the light if we'll continue going forward. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy

which held me bound when the light rested upon me I saw two personages whose brightness and glory defy all descriptions standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me calling me by name and said point to the other this is my beloved son hear him." For the first time reading this verse this time the the thought came to my mind, what if the darkness never leaves in mortality? Can this verse still be true? Imagine you have cancer, maybe it's brain cancer and it fogs your capacity to feel and it influences your emotions and your capacity to feel the Spirit or feel close to God. Listen to this, it no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which

held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two personages whose brightness and glory defile description. Standing above me in the air, one of them spake unto me calling me by name and said pointy to the other, this is my beloved son, hear him." I hope it's okay for me to be personal here. We had a little nephew, a little five-year-old nephew pass away of a brain tumor. I don't know what his experience was but through the scriptures we do know we are taken home to that God who gave us life. So in that moment when the darkness dissipates and the light comes. Is that also true that we will behold our Father who will motion to his Son? I believe in faith that if our darkness lasts through

mortality, this light experience will come and will deliver. Verse 18 where he says, immediately when the Lord allows him to ask, he says, which should I join? Notice his connection between desire for knowledge and action. When we read Moroni 10, this is part of the equation of coming to know spiritual truth. We have to have a sincere heart, real intent and faith to the point that we're willing to act. Because if God gives us the knowledge but we're not willing to act, it seems in my mind that the distance between knowing and action can be condemnation. If you know and you

aren't acting, that distance is condemnation. And God is not in the business of condemnation. We know that from John 3, 16 and 17. He sent not his son into the world to condemn the world. So he's not interested in giving you knowledge if he knows that it will condemn you or lead to sinful acts. So we've got to make sure that we're willing to really act and separate from the world. If we're going to ask the Lord to make us citizens of heaven, which is a phrase from Paul, citizens in heaven, we have to be willing

to take up residence in heaven symbolically and get rid of Babylon just like you mentioned Hank. But if we're unwilling to stop with the trends of the world, that may limit our capacity to learn. Why would the Lord give me knowledge that's simply going to condemn me? He said very clearly that's not what he wants. One of the things I think is interesting about this story is Joseph's response, I've learned that Presbyterianism is not true. What does that mean that Presbyterianism is not true? Sometimes we're too, speaking of persecution narratives, we're too quick to be defensive and offensive.

Joseph will later say, a grand fundamental principle of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. He then says, if the Methodists have truth, we accept it. If the Catholics have truth, we accept it. If there is truth on the earth, we accept it. He's inclined towards believing that they have truth. So when he says that he's learned that Presbyterianism is not true, we have to be careful to also understand that he's learned that Presbyterianism is not true, we have to be

careful to also understand that he learned more through his life and that this is not a wholesale Presbyterianism is the worst ever, don't ever do that, like don't ever go there, but that what he's saying is that there is a vehicle for restoration that is going to be implemented that I need to be ready to align myself with. I need to distance myself from other sex and denominations at this time. So that I am ready for alignment when that comes. Now, the same thing I think is going to be true when he

talks about creeds and creedalism. I mentioned earlier that I had written this letter to this young Catholic student that wanted to know about Mormonism. One of the things that she asked is, what is a misconception about your church that is prominent and that would be helpful to understand? And I immediately went to people that think we're Christian. That hurts me. And I immediately went to people don't think we're Christian. That hurts me. And I started off, I wrote this response that then in essence said, the Trinitarian doctrine is a fourth century invention, which is agreed by both Catholic and Protestant scholars.

This was invented in the fourth century and that New Testament Christianity is what I believe in. Right. And I was like, ha. Here we go. So we've got to be careful that when we talk about other churches, that we're more thoughtful than we have potentially been in the past. Robert Millett, he writes a really great

article about the true and living church. What does it mean great article about the true and living church. What does it mean that this is the true and living church? And he talks about what it means that their creeds are an abomination to God. That we've got to be careful that we don't say that all of their churches are an abomination or that their ministers are an abomination. He speaks about specific ministers that have really fought against him. He's not appreciative of that, but we've got to be careful how we speak about these. So their creeds are an abomination, meaning that their creedal statements,

where they are trying to justify belief, the exclusion of others because of what we believe, that's problematic. And notice how that ties with our articles of faith. We allow all men the privilege of worshipping God. Let it be in whatever way they want. We respect them for worshiping God. So when we think of creedal Christians, which is the rest of Protestantism and Catholicism, the majority of Christians are creedal.

We've got to be careful that we recognize that creedalism is something that we seem to be opposed to because of others. And if we're not careful, we'll use this statement to other the very thing that it seems that God is trying to avoid. Stop othering them. I actually have a good friend who's an evangelical. We talked about the first vision and in essence he said, I have to believe that Joseph experienced

the vision because others in my faith tradition of the same time period suggested that they had visions similar to Joseph's. And then he said, what I don't like is that he becomes a prophet and speaks against these churches. I have to think that might actually be how we've interpreted these texts, not necessarily how God intended them or how Joseph wanted them because Joseph speaks in other places like if the Methodists have truth we accept it. Right. I'm willing to die for a Mormon as well as a Catholic as well as a Baptist. Yeah and we have to have that same fervor. Yeah

and McLean don't we sometimes end up being the minister? We treat their spirituality lightly, with great contempt. It's all of the devil. Instead of having this be a war of words and contest of opinions, those conversations that we have that are in our faith, we need to think of a hope that we can warm our hands by the fire of their faith. Holy envy. Holy envy, warm our hands on the fire of their faith.

Now, let's just be honest, I have some Catholic friends. Oh boy, my hands and heart and whole body have been warmed by the fire of their faith. They are as good of Christians as I've ever met. hands and heart and whole body have been warmed by the fire of their faith. They are as good of Christians as I've ever met. The same thing is true with every other denomination that I've come across. And so instead of this antagonistic defensive mode, maybe I could ask a question about what is it about your faith that you love? Tell me about your conviction for Christ and what that

does for you in difficult times. And then hopefully we'll have the opportunity to say something like, my faith is beautiful to me because I believe that God has the capacity to save and exalt all of his children. And through my religion, I believe that I'm a part of that process with him. This becomes more of a conversion narrative than a persecution narrative, like we talked about earlier. Yeah, that's wonderful. Let's build faith in Jesus Christ just like section one talks about we have the restoration so faith might increase. Let us never

be guilty of decreasing faith and how we interact with other Christians and other neighbors. Beautiful. McLean this has been a fantastic day. Taking us from the first vision to the temple, the ark, just wonderful. I want to go to the temple and almost reach back through time to touch the first vision. That is just beautiful. McLean, in all of your study and research you've done, members of the church in general don't get to and research you've done, you know, members of the church in general don't get to have the wonderful opportunity to study the gospel and teach the gospel all day, every day. But you've had that opportunity.

So for those who haven't, is Joseph Smith a prophet? Is the restoration what it claims to be? You've studied it as well as almost anyone. I think our listeners would love to hear your thoughts. That's a powerful question. One that requires a contemplative answer. Joseph was a man who was asked to do a prophetic work. He didn't profess to be perfect.

In fact, the person that is rebuked the most in the doctrine and covenants is Joseph Smith. And sometimes very harshly. That being said, I become more convinced of Joseph's prophetic role, the more I spend time reading and studying. And that sentiment is expressed by many of my historian heroes who have said things like, the problem isn't that people read too much of our history, but that they read too little.

I've found that to be the case. I've found that the more I study Joseph Smith and the revelations, I see mistakes that Joseph made. I see a God who's merciful. That gives me hope in my own eternal standing. And it gives me hope that maybe God could use me to, to benefit the world around me

and my family too. I hope that he could use me to bless my children so that my children can be restored to God and that my neighbors can be restored to God. God be thanked for his son Jesus Christ that is anxiously forgiving us and for prophets that are illuminating the Son of God. Thank you, McLean. Thank you so much. When I think of the first vision, I think of this thought from Elder Uchtdorf.

God will speak to you. He will speak to you in dreams, vision, thoughts and feelings. He will speak in a way that is unmistakable and transcends human experience. You've shown that today, McLean. John, how did we get this job? Yeah, this is what I love when I have clarity because that's when I know I just learned something from the Spirit. That arc from first vision to the temple. Man, that is beautiful. All of us have weakness. I hope my weakness as a

conduit doesn't get in the way of God's truth to restore us to Him. Thanks so much for letting me come. I really appreciate it and pray that it continues to be a blessing for so many people. We loved having you. If any of you want to, you can come onto YouTube and make a comment, write to McLean, and we will make sure he gets those. It's really fun for our guests to hear from some of our listeners. And with that, we want to thank Dr. McLean Hewart for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And every episode, we remember our founder. He loves Joseph Smith, Steve Sorensen.

We hope you'll join us next week on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French? on Follow Him. That's followhim.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our production team. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Quadra, Amelia Cabuica, and Annabel Sorensen.