Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Matt 13; Luke 8; 13 Part 2 • Dr. Daniel Becerra • Mar. 20 - Mar. 26

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Dr. Becerra continues to examine what the miracles of Jesus continue to teach modern disciples and explores the danger of assuming testimony is an end goal.00:00 Part II– Dr. Daniel Becerra02:24  Luke 8 and miracles point beyond themselves03:36 Miracles can demonstrate God’s care for individuals, power over elements, etc.04:35 Jesus calms the storm08:03 First Principle is faith in Jesus09:58 Why Jesus takes people out onto the sea12:00 Elder Maxwell and three types of suffering13:45 Phillip Yancy and The Bible Jesus Read15:01 Jesus heals a man possessed18:30 Testimony isn’t our end goal21:58 The woman with the issue of blood28:31 Jesus laments Jerusalem and maternal imagery31:14 Scattering and Gathering36:27 Dr. Daniel Becerra shares his journey as a scholar and a Saint41:45 End of Part II–Dr. Daniel BecerraShow Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.coFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Welcome to part two of Dr. Daniel Bacera, Matthew chapter 13 and Luke chapter 8 and 13. This story, it starts with soil, and if you're going to plant something, the first question that you should ask is what kind of soil do I have as my soil prepared for anything you're going to plant. And I love that Jesus starts with the soil, and when you look at the footnotes, it kind of ties this to other scriptural stories and parables. And Jesus starts with the soil and getting your ground prepared. And Alma speaks to the Zor mights about a seed. You'll remember that the people he speaks to are those who have been humbled. And they're kind of like good soil walks up. Hey, what about us? We're poor. We built these synagogues. They won't let us worship. And Alma sees that they're kind of like good soil walks up. Hey, what about us? We're poor. We built these synagogues. They won't let us worship. And Al-Massees that they're good soil and then talks to them

about planting this seed, which is basically Christ. It's Christ in his mission, which they said they didn't believe in up on the Ramiumptum. But then he spends the rest of his time talking about time to grow roots and the season. He calls it faith diligence and patience. And then if you grow roots, and at one point, he even says, now, if this doesn't grow, it's not because the seed wasn't good. This is a good seed. It's because your ground is barren. And the footnotes point you back to Matthew 13, preparing the soil, soil seed, and then a season time to grow roots. And he says, if you don't apply faith diligence and patience and take care of this, you'll never per take of the fruit of the tree of life. And then you go, whoa, we're growing the tree of life

here. And maybe I'm seeing more than is there, but it sounds to me like there's soil, then there's the seed. And then there's a time for growing a season, and then lastly, in the only word I can think of that starts with S is supper, is that you can partake of the fruit, and it even says, if you don't do this, you'll never partake of the fruit of the tree of life. I feel like parable the sower is part one of kind of a four-part story, soil seed season supper, which is kind of fun to put them all together. And the footnotes do it.

It's all there. And I love it because it's an agricultural metaphor that we cannot. We've all had a little bit of experience with. It must be a lot of gardens in heaven because they talk about it a lot. Yeah, Bruce Arma Khanki talks about the gardens of God, the Garden of Eden, the Garden of Gethsemane, and the Garden Tomb. And you be brown, said, I am the gardener here.

God is the gardener, you know. Daniel, anything before we move on? No, I'm ready to transition. Maybe we could talk a little bit about Jesus' miracles. Okay, let's do it. Luke 8, where we got some of the parables. It concludes with a few stories of miracles. Miracles and scripture are important because they point beyond themselves just like parables.

So Jesus' miracles are sometimes referred to as semea or semeon in the singular, and this is the Greek word years to describe what he's doing. And another way to translate this word is sign or token. Because it's a sign. It's something that reveals or signifies or demonstrates something about Jesus in addition to helping those who receive them. Jesus' miracles are signs, they're tokens, they're demonstrations of something. In the Old Testament miracles, a story's function in several ways, they demonstrate, for example, God's power over His opponents. So think Elijah and the Priest of Ball, think Moses and Pharaoh's magicians. They demonstrate God's care for Israel.

So think Moses parting the Red Sea to protect Israel from Pharaoh's armies. And they also show or demonstrate God's care for individuals. So think healing of name and for example. In the New Testament, they serve similar functions, but they also attest specifically to Jesus's divinity and authority over creation. Jesus is different from miracle workers in the Old Testament because rather than praying for miracles to occur, he himself is empowered to heal people, cast out demons and command the elements.

And this is because he's the son of God. This has a miracle's signal, this part of his nature. Jesus performs four kinds of miracles in the gospels, exorcisms, which is just in casting out evil spirits. He performs healings. So somebody with a physical, mental, empowerment is made better. He raises the dead. And he also does, for lack of a better term, nature miracles. So in which he exercises power of the elements. So storms, big trees, feeding the 5,000 water to wine, this kind of stuff, right? And I would suggest that in each case, in each miracle that Jesus performs,

these miracles signals something, again, beyond themselves. They can teach us something about Christ in his gospel. So we might keep that in the back of our mind as we go through some of these stories and I'll periodically ask, what is the story teacher's signal about Christ in addition to just being kind of a cool power that he has? So one of the miracles mentioned in Luke 8

is Jesus calming the storm. As you know, the story goes, Jesus is on a boat with his disciples. He falls asleep. A storm comes. The boat is filling up with water, master we perish, Luke records. And the disciples came to him and awoke him saying, master, master we perish. Then he arose and rebuked the wind and the raging water and they ceased and there was a calm and he said into them, where is your faith? And they being afraid, wondered, saying to one another, what manner of man is this? For he commanded even the winds and the water to obey him. The first question that comes to my mind, what is the story teacher signal about Christ in your mind? Like what do we see revealed about Christ here? As with all the miracles, it's just one

more thing that he has power over, not just men, not just women, not just children, not just plants, but boy, the elements, the weather, and also tying that back to faith. The most powerful forces that these polymen would have witnessed, the forces of nature. I wonder, I don't know if Luke meant this or the other Gospel authors, but it seems that there may be making a reference to the storms of life that when a Christian of their day is reading these works or hearing them, that they could make that personal leap to master help us, we perish, and he calmed the sea and said, where is your faith? The modern day reader and even the late reader, 2022, 23 reader can still get that same lesson.

Yeah, absolutely. And I like the Jessica position. You have a very human Jesus, like his body's like ours, he got tired, he's sleeping, he's so tired, he's sleeping in a boat during a storm. How tired is this guy? Yeah, I know exactly. His body needed rest. So he's like very human. And then all of a sudden, he commands the strongest forces of nature. He's incredibly powerful.

So it's just this balance here. One of the questions that comes to my mind too with regard to faith, you mentioned this John, is why exactly does Jesus rebuke them for not having faith? And what should they have had faith? Do you think exactly? Yeah. Good question. Should they have done that what should they have had faith? Do you think exactly? Yeah, good question. Should they have done that or should they have thought? It's okay, Jesus is on our ship.

Nothing's gonna happen. I mean, what is he wanting of them? It's a good question. Like should they have had faith that Christ could or would save them, that God would save Christ and by extension them? Did they lack the faith necessary to still disorm themselves?

Then what do we make of the fact that they were surprised when Jesus actually does it? Like why would they say, you know, save us and they're surprised when he saves them? All right. So it's like, yeah, I'm not quite sure what's going on. There's a lot of fun details in there. The reason I asked this is because when I read this, it's like, okay, they should have had faith that Jesus would save them. I think that's the most plain reading maybe or something like that. But at the same time, I asked myself like, is that something that we can have faith in as well? Can I have faith that God is always going to deliver me from temporal danger? I don't think the

answer is yes. So what can we have faith in? If we can't have faith that God's going to save us from all the things that threaten our lives, What exactly can we have faith in? Yeah, because I don't think that's the meaning of it is, oh don't worry, you'll never experience a failure or a sinking. But in this moment, he seems to suggest you should have faith that I was going to save you. Is that a faith that all of us can have? The first principle, the gospel is not faith. It's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and sometimes what happens to us as our lives unfold is not the way we wanted it to happen. We wanted God to do this for us and he doesn't. But sometimes we see, oh, he had something better in mind or he had something else in mind, doesn't seem better. But if I have faith in Christ, there's got to be, he'd do with not anything, save it be, for the benefit of the world.

And there must be something better he has in mind, and that's harder, kind of faith to have, but we all have stories like that. And that's a beautiful idea. I mean, the idea that we can have faith, not in what's going to happen, but in him, and in the fact that whatever he does, it's going to be for our benefit. If he lets us sink to the bottom of the ocean, we've got to have faith that that's what happened or something like that, right? We can have faith in God, being with us in our suffering, and the fact that he wants the best for us, the fact that he knows what's best for us, and in his love and justice and mercy, even if we can't have faith that he's going to live for us from every trial that we have.

And that's a leap to make. I think that it's easy to think. Faith is not in the way I want things to work out, but it's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And some of the wonderful prophets, modern and ancient that we talk about have gone through amazing trials and things. And God is really good at turning hard things into good things sometimes and some of us are probably listening still out there asking why me why this why now and Really backs us up against that wall of faith in Christ Yeah, and I think all of us have had experiences where we're asking for deliverance of some sort and we pray and there isn't a kind of transfer of Information or anything like that we just feel and participate in the love of Christ.

And that's what helps us to know that whatever happens, like he's going to be there, like whatever happens, there's going to be this love. Yeah. One Christian pastor wrote this, Jesus does not take people out into the middle of the sea to drown them. He takes people across the sea so they can participate in his work of redemption. It does not stand a far off to do this. He enters the darkness, the evil, the suffering of this world, and he transforms it from within. If we are following him, then we too will enter darkness. We need to keep Jesus in sight. We need to understand who this is, asleep in the boat. The storm is not where you face the enemy. The storm is where you meet God. I like that kind of turn on it

a little bit. You meet God in these storms. This is where, like you said, something comes over you. Maybe the storm isn't calm, but something happens inside of you that changes you. The storm is where you meet God. We all know that story of the man that was in one of those handcart companies that heard some people critical of the timing of when they left and he said what was it? We met God in our extremities. Do you remember that story? I asked you to stop this criticism, you know nothing what you talk about I was there and he said sometimes I felt like I can go to that next hill and that's no further and then he said that angels would start to push me and the price we paid was worth it to pay because we became acquainted with God in our extremity,

which is... must have quieted... I wish I could have seen the Sunday school class after that. And said that. Okay, class dismissed. We can't improve on that. I mean, I think that raises a kind of important theological question, which is, I think all of us agree that suffering can function to help us to find intimacy with God, right? Suffering opposition that give us opportunities to be close to God. Does that mean do you think that we should assume that all of us, all the suffering we face is sent to us by God for that reason? So for example, did God give my

son diabetes to teach him something or to teach me something? What do you guys think? And it's not as if people for 2,000 years have been asking this question, so you guys go ahead. Yeah, if I were here, answer this. Why suffer? I got the answer right here. I remember Elder Maxwell said that trials come in three types. And one is our own decisions. We just make our own lives hard. He said, two is some come because we're living on a earth and we signed up for a fallen world, fallen planet. And then there's lots of quick happen. Cancer happens. Yeah. And third, he said is when we have a God who deliberately tries to teach us. But then he said, something to the effect of,

don't get so caught up in trying to distinguish between two and three, because it's really hard to do. Like did God send this or did this just part of me coming to earth instead just try to learn what you can from those experiences? So it's always helped me a little bit instead of trying to figure out that question using all this time and energy to figure out this question of is this a two or is this a three? You just kind of say, well, it's a two and a half. It's I don't really know, but I'm going to move forward anyway.

And whatever it is though, he can always turn that to good. That's the nice part. I think even sometimes when we cause our own problems, he can still help us out of him. Even when we know, I did this to myself, that was dumb. And that's what we can count on rather than focusing on is this category one or two trial I'm having here. And being careful also in our albeit well-intentioned efforts to comfort other people, if we were to say something the effect of, you know, well, God does everything for a reason. Like, that could mess up somebody's relationship with God if they think God gave their mother cancer or something like that. So, we want to be careful about when we attribute agency to God and intentionalities. It's just some of the unfortunate things that happen to us. This reminds me of years ago, I was trying to do some

research on Job and I called Robert Millett our friend and said What have we got on Job? He said go get this book by Philip Yancey a fine Christian author called the Bible Jesus read and he used to write for the readers Digest in those stories called drama in real life. I was jogging in a bear attacked me or I was skiing in an avalanche came in So he used to visit people in hospitals a lot to get these stories and he said that he interviewed them because he was a Christian. He said that most of the people said when the Christians came to visit them, they felt worse, not better. And the reason they felt worse is they tried to explain what God was doing. Well, God did this for this reason or God's doing this or God needed

them or something like that. And what I loved about the story of Job is at least at first the friends just sit with him and they don't try to explain it. As soon as they try to explain it, that's when everything went south. And that mirror is I think how God ministers to us. In the book of Job, he never really does explain why he did it. He just says, were you there? When I set everything up, when I created everything and it's a fascinating way to look at it that way that we can get in trouble when we try to explain it and instead just anchor on faith in Christ. Maybe one day we'll have a reason, but maybe we won't. Yeah, excellent. is Jesus is healing of the man possessed by several evil spirits. So we're told this guy, he lived out

naked among the tombs. He's not in his right mind and sometimes people would bind him with chains as a result of his affliction, maybe to keep him from hurting himself or others. I don't know. And I want to point out something I found interesting here and I'm sure there's other things that you guys can point out as well. But when the evil spirits, I see Jesus coming, one of them says, what have I to do with the Jesus that was Son of God most high? So right away they see Jesus from afar, they recognize who he is and the power that he has from his father. And this isn't an isolated incident in the New Testament. You see the same thing occurring throughout his ministry. So Mark records Mark 311, the evil spirits saw him. They cried out, thou art the son of God a Luke elsewhere

Luke chapter 4 of the spirits call out the Holy One of God when they see Jesus and I highlight this because I actually went through the New Testament once and wrote down everything said by an evil spirit and When I had the list in front of me I was surprised at how much it looked like my testimony because it was essentially an articulation of knowledge of who Jesus is and what He can do. And it hit me in this moment, like as important as testimony and necessary as testimony is, it shouldn't be my end goal and it shouldn't be the ultimate measure of my discipleship because if the demons know the same things about Jesus that I do and it's not doing them any good, then it can't be knowledge in and of itself that is going to transform us, right? We have to interact with this knowledge in a way that's transformative.

Elder Oak said it better than I can. He says, this process of conversion or becoming who we need to be requires far more than acquiring knowledge. So the gospel, it's more than a system of belief. It's more than a code of conduct. It's a system of becoming intended to transform us into more Christlike persons. So testimony and obedience, these are means by which we accomplish this change

that God wants to affect in us. They're not the end goal. Elder Oaks continues, many Bible and modern scriptures speak of the final judgment at which all persons will be rewarded according to their deeds or works or the desires of their hearts. But other scriptures enlarge upon this

by referring to our being judged by the condition we have achieved. So that all has very little to do with demonic possession, I realize, but this is what kind of jumped out to me as meaningful in this past is this idea that knowledge of Christ is not sufficient in of itself. And it's important to say, you know, how is my testimony, how is this testimony and stuff like that? But it's also important to recognize testimony is not the end goal. It's a means to an end. It's intended to get us to a point beyond itself Is it in the book of James where James says that the devil's also believe in tremble and it's not just

About believing but it's about doing mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean James 2 Verse 19, thou believe is there is one God thou doest well the devil's also believe in tremble But well thou know ove man that faith without works is dead and so knowing is great the devil's no two But what have you done with it? And that's kind of what you just said Daniel. What are you becoming? Right, what do you think are the dangers in assuming testimony and and obedience at the end goal of the discipleship because unfortunately as I talked to my students about this kind of stuff and no obedience at the end goal of the discipleship. Because unfortunately, as I talked to my students about this kind of stuff, those are kind of the metrics that they use

to determine how they're doing. It's like, okay, how's my testimony about being the commandments? And again, those are good things. But what dangers do you see in assuming that those are the only things? Yeah, that doesn't seem to be where the scriptures end. Anything seems to be when he comes again,

we'll know him because we will be like him. And I think we could also fall into the danger of maybe just going through the motions and just assuming that if we're doing these things, then we're good. Mirona and Paul talk about this idea that if a man prays but not with full intent of heart, it doesn't profit him anything. If a man gives a gift and does so grudgingly, then he might as well retain it. This idea that you have to have the disposition that informs obedience for it to be transformative. And that's a much taller order, I think. My dad used to talk about the difference between being convinced and converted.

Conversion's a lifelong ongoing process, you know. Excellent. I think it was Elder Bednar who said, testimony alone is not and will not be enough to protect us in the latter day storm of darkness and evil in which we are living. Testimony is important and necessary, but not sufficient to provide the spiritual strength and protection we need. And he says just what you said, Daniel, some members of the church with testimonies have wavered and fallen away. Their spiritual knowledge and commitment did not measure up to the challenges they faced. And then he talks about being converted unto the Lord, not just a knowledge of the truth,

but being converted to the Lord, which other Benar says, I understand to be conversion to the Savior and his gospel. Testion and conversion unto the Lord produce firmness steadfastness and provide spiritual protection. I did a study in the book of Mormon once about the word converted just for fun because I've used the phrase about oh yeah my dad was a convert to the church and I discovered the book of Mormon never uses that phrase. We're converted onto the Lord. It's a very consistent or the object of our conversion is to Christ, not to the church. And Elder D. Todd Christopherson gave a wonderful talk called Why the Church, where he emphasized that idea.

We're converted onto the Lord and we're united with to arrive at that at the end of this life. That's why it's such a continuous thing as you're saying Daniel. It's not just about believing, but trying to become like him as a process. Yeah. It's really informed the way I view other people, too. Sometimes we think, oh, somebody isn't a member of the church or they're struggling in their testimony or something like that, but they're just genuinely good people. If we have a family member who leaves the church and we're concerned, oh, they're not doing

this, they don't believe this anymore, but at the same time, they are like their Christian individuals, like I think it help us see what's important and what's important is Christ's likeness. Again, the other stuff's important too, but at the end of the day, I think what's most important is Christ's likeness. Who was it that said, it's not about who has your membership, it's about who has your heart? Stephen Robinson, yeah. You know, this part about what is the name? And he said, Legion and the devils entered into the swine and they ran violently down a steep place in verse 33 of Luke 8 and were choked. So the other day I heard something that Elder Maxwell said he called it the Gaterine swine law. And the Gaterine swine law

is just because a group is moving in formation does not mean they're going the right way. Right. You could obviously see in the wrong note in harmony. right way. You could all be singing the wrong note in harmony. That's great. The wrong note in harmony. I think we're ready to move on to the next one. All right, so now their miracle in Luke is the woman with the issue of blood. 43 to 48. In this story, we're told that there's a woman having an issue of blood for 12 years, which she had spent all her living upon physicians and either could be healed of any. Some scholars suggest the woman suffered from an abnormal menstrual flow, which would have meant that this issue wasn't just physiological for her.

Because according to the law of Moses, a contact with certain bodily emissions, including blood, would have made one richly unpear and able to communicate that impurity to other people. So, by her touching another individual, she would have been able to communicate that impurity to other people. So by her touching another individual, she would have been able to communicate that impurity. Now, ritual impurity isn't a moral thing, but it is something that would have prevented somebody from going to the temple and offering sacrifices and things like that. So there would have had to have been a washing process and waiting for a few days. But if you're continually, you're literally unpear, then you can't go and people,

anybody who comes into contact with you can't do certain things. And as a result of this, her prospects for marriage and maybe intimate relationships would have been limited or nonexistent as would her opportunities for worship at the temple. So again, it isn't just a physiological thing. This is a social issue that's, this has social implications for her life. We're also told that she spent a lot of money trying to get better. So maybe she's impoverished. So Jesus is in the crowd and then, quote, she came behind him and touched the border

of his garment and immediately her issue of blood, stanched her dried up. And Jesus said, who touched me? When everybody denied Peter and they that were with him said, master the multitude thronged me and pressed me and say, a thou who touched me. Everybody touched you. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody has touched me, for I perceive that virtue has gone out of me.

So virtue, dunamis, power or force or energy has gone out of me. And when the woman saw that she was not hit, she came trembling and falling down before him. She declared unto him before all the people for what cause she has touched him. You have to remember remember she knew she was richly contaminating Jesus by doing this. So you can understand why she would have been afraid and she was healed immediately

and he said unto her daughter, be of good comfort that faith had made the whole a going piece. So I mentioned earlier, some of these miracles or signs can indicate something to us about Jesus and his character, they can represent, they can demonstrate, they can symbolize. Anything that jumps out to you here about Christ based on this story? There's so much in verse 12, she had spent all her living upon physicians. Neither could be healed of any.

This is a lifetime of probably isolation for her. And I love that she had the courage to touch him. Do you guys really think he didn't know who touched him or was this for everybody else? I'm not sure. Maybe it was for her to see what she was going to do or to get the attention of everyone else. Or maybe a different question is,

would it be problematic if he didn't? Like what's at stake if he didn't? If this was somehow intentional, and does it complicate or any like our theology would be against the idea of him doing this somewhat unconsciously, so to speak? I don't think so. He's real, he's a human being, he could be like something just happened. I like that. I like that he stopped one of the points that I think the manual makes and everything

else is that he wanted her to know that it was her faith and not his garment. It wasn't that this garment has some special power or some relics from the past have some special power, which some kind of believe, but thy faith has made the whole thing. I think that was an important point for everybody to hear. And for us to. Yeah, I think we'd all agree that if she wasn't worthy to be healed, she could have touched him all the day long and probably not been healed, right?

Yes. I mean, what stands out to me is kind of the initiative of her. Like, again, this is the only time in Scripture of which I'm aware in which Jesus performs a miracle seemingly unintentionally. I assume he would have wanted it to happen because it happened, right? But at the same time, like she had the faith to be healed and she was healed, she knew what it took to do it and she took the initiative and it happened and Jesus ratified it. Daughter, because of your faith, you've been may whole, you did the right thing. He looks past the whole ritual and purity thing too. Like that wasn't even an issue for him.

He's like, no, don't worry about that. Like you made the right choice, which is kind of comforting, because sometimes there's a little bit of wiggle room when we don't want to be too legalistic to where it stuns our expressions of discipleship and faith. And that makes me want to ask, is that a lot of Moses thing or is that a tradition of the elder's thing? That's in Leviticus.

So it is a lot of Moses thing, but he doesn tradition of the elder thing? That's in Leviticus. So it is a lot of Moses thing, but he doesn't seem to care about it. Interesting. Yeah, I mean, ritual impurity isn't necessarily an immoral thing. So it wouldn't have compromised his like sinlessness or anything like that. Men become ritually impure too. If they come into contact with certain skin diseases or whorps or bodily emissions. So it's something that Jesus would have experienced before. So it wasn't the end of the world, but at the same time, it's like me shaking your hand when I'm sick. Like I wouldn't wanna do it,

but if I was falling off a cliff and I need somebody to help me and I grabbed your hand, you probably wouldn't be mad at me for a trans-cancer or something. So maybe it's like the same kind of thing going on. What do you do? Your priorities in the right place, you. Yeah. I've always thought this emphasized his one-by-one

ministry as well. Because we often hear he healed crowds. He fed 5,000. And then at this moment, he's like, nope. There was one person here I need to talk to. It reminds me a lot of present, months, and all the time. One-by-one. You'll go visit those widows.

Our relationship with the Lord can be us and him, an individual relationship. It doesn't have to be the crowd and him. And not just that, she was trying to deliberately kind of hide herself from him. It seems like to touch him without her knowing. And he still perceived that she was there even when she felt like maybe she wasn't worthy or wasn't able to approach him face to face. And he said, no, like I recognized you there and you did the right thing. In contrast to the calming the sea storm wherein Jesus is concerned with their physical survival, here it's much more concerned with her social survival, right?

It's not just he wants her to be healthy. It's the social thing again, her thriving, living with other humans and happy and fulfilling relationships like the healing affected that as well. Like he cares for that stuff too, which is comforting for me. When I see that verse, spent all her living upon physicians, that still happens today. We love what our medical knowledge, where it's at, and what doctors can do, but sometimes we can't figure this out in your suffering. And I just love the compassion that he had there. Yeah. So the final thing I wanted to address is Jesus' lament over a Jerusalem in Luke 13.

You get it in third knee fight also. So Jesus, he finished telling the parables, some Pharisees inform him that Herod wants to kill him and Jesus responds with some choice words and then he says, this is verse 33, look 13, I must walk today and tomorrow and the following day for it cannot be that the prophet parish out of Jerusalem, O Jerusalem Jerusalem, which kills the prophets and stoneeth them that are sent unto thee. How often would I have gathered Thy children together as a hand-doth gather her brood or chicks under her wings and you would not exclamation point. Couple things first. I just want to point out kind of the beauty of the imagery here and it's worth saying that Matthew isn't unique in his portrayal of deity or Christ as a maternal figure

numerous biblical authors they compare God or Christ to a mother who comforts her child a mother bear a mother eagle and nursing mother a woman in labor. So it's actually not that uncommon. And there's a kind of softness and tenderness to the image of a mother hen. I'm no chicken scientist or whatever the actual term, zoologist or whatever, but I don't know much about hands. But I mean, to me, it seems like a hen is an animal without much offensive or defensive

capabilities, right? It's not like a fox or a porcupine or something like that. And her chicks are even more vulnerable. And she uses her own body, like as a place of gathering and protection for these vulnerable chicks, despite the fact that it would make her more vulnerable. She could probably move around less, less protection. So she's in a sense, like, she's recognizing that, okay, I might be sacrificing myself in this.

And I just kind of love the juxtaposition between the powerful God of the universe, we encounter in Scripture, as well as this kind of more mother hen trying to care for her chicks. I mean, Scripture does a really good way of kind of showing us the spectrum of the multifaceted nature of Christ. And I think it does it in a way that allows us to relate to them in different ways according to our different needs. Sometimes we need the powerful God that comps the storm and sometimes we need the mother hen. Sometimes we need to see Christ as vulnerable and like us and in solidarity with us in our own vulnerability. And then we kind of had this heartbreaking part and you would not.

The exclamation, there was no exclamation points in ancient Greek, but the author here is trying to convey this idea of frustration. I tried so hard and you wouldn't do it. Some of his children have chosen to make it on their own despite his consistent desire to gather them. And that's kind of the image we see here. I don't know what speaks to you, if anything, in this passage. I underlined gather twice, because we see such a theme of scatter, gather, scatter, gather throughout the scriptures. And

that's what the Savior wants to do. He wants to gather us. But I underlined, you would not too. I always, when I see that, I like to say, what's the difference between would not and could not? And there's so many times when, particularly in the Book of Mormon, you would not. You chose. And so you do have a choice. But he's lamenting that, why would you choose that? This is a no brainer. Let me gather you. I know. I want to help you. Why won't you be helped? Yeah, I love the imagery. I think Christ taking on the feminine there is very touching. Kind of like

when Isaiah does it, when he says, I will not forget you like a woman doesn't forget her newborn child. And I mean, Isaiah actually, he says, even if a woman were to forget her newborn child. And I mean, I mean, I actually, he says, even if a woman were to forget her newborn child, which she wouldn't, I would not. I would not. I would not. I will not for you. You say, this impossibility, if hypothetically speaking that were to happen, I still wouldn't. So it's just like goes beyond the nursing mother.

This gathering of metaphor, Hank, that you mentioned is in third Nephi too, for he comes. And he does a past, present, future with the, often, would I have gathered you in the past? How often will I gather you in the future? How have I, so John's going to read the 3rd Nephi reference for us. You see that the lament is extended in 3rd Nephi. And I'm wondering if it adds anything that we don't see necessarily in Luke and Matthew. So pay attention to that. It's three times as long, I think. Before Jesus actually appeared in person, they heard a voice in 3rd Nephi 9 and 10,

I think in 3rd Nephi 10 verse 4, O ye people of these great cities which have fallen who are descendants of Jacob, Ye who are of the house of Israel, how often have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and have nourished you? And again, how often would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and have nourished you. And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her

wings, ye, O ye people of the house of Israel who have fallen? Ye, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem as ye that have fallen? Ye, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens and you would not? O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gather through chickens and you would not? OE house of Israel whom I have spared? How oft will I gather you as a hen gather through chickens under her wings if he will repent and return on to me with full purpose of heart? So you feel anything different like rhetorically what's like the fact that you have these different tenses I gathered you I will gather

you or would have gathered you. Kind of a constancy of purpose there. This is what I do. I want to gather you, I want to protect you. Yeah. It seems like you think I've done everything I can't. Like I've done this. I'll continue to do it. I'll do it as my hand is always outreached. Like just take it. Right? Yeah. This is from Jane Alice Pike, she wrote an article called How, Off the Wood I Have Gathered You as a Hand Gathered Through Chickens, the power of the hen metaphor in Therneafie. That's Dana's wife, yeah. Yeah. Christ's hen metaphor is explained further in Almas open invitation that whosoever will may come and partake of the waters of life freely, and whosoever will not come, the same as not compelled to come.

Like a mother-in-law, Jesus Christ has ever concerned for the physical and spiritual needs of His children, and because His infinite atonement stretches wide as eternity, He will always remain capable of providing shelter and protection to all who willingly come unto Him. remains capable of providing shelter and protection to all who willingly come into him. He promises and affirms how oft will I gather you? Future tense. It should be also recognized that even though this metaphor pertains to God's dealing with house of Israel, his efforts here and now a gathering including his children within his covenant are boundless. All who are willing to be baptized in the name of the Lord, as witness before him, that they have entered into a covenant with him, will be immediately enfolded and included

in his loving arms. Then we can go into Scripture and look at how often Nephi says, will circle me about in the robes of righteousness. It feels very similar to this idea of shelter me keep me safe. I've often asked people I'm teaching To think about the endowment ceremony will doubt and circle me about in the robes of thy righteousness And not just that I mean going back to your comment about the inclusivity. He's addressing Oh Jerusalem now that kills the prophets Like he's not saying oh all you special righteous ones, he's saying, no, even you guys are trying to kill the prophets. Like how often would I have gathered you? Like he's reaching out to the people we would say, wow, that's an evil thing to do.

A repentance message in there. I notice in verse 35 of Luke 13, he does not like to see the consequences that come. Your house is left under you, desolate. Like, oh, no, you don't see what's coming down this road and you feel that way as a parent often like I've seen this road I've seen I know how this story ends don't go down this road please don't go down this road the invitation is always there come back right before we let you go I think our listeners would love to hear your journey as both a scholar and a faithful, latter-day saint. What does that journey been like for

you? That's a hard question to answer. I didn't like grow up wanting to do this. I didn't really have a good understanding of like how college worked and things like that when I was in high, like my plan was just either being a band or joined the military. And I started out going to community college and I was studying fine art photography. And I did that for a couple of years and then I went on my mission, I just kind of fell in love with the scriptures and I had some experiences on my mission in which I kind of realized that disparity or the gap between who I was and who I wanted to be. Like I would see the goodness and the people I managed to do and in my fellow missionaries and the saints we served and I

would just like want that and I'd be able to perceive keenly and painfully the difference between who I was and the kind of ideals I aspire to. I also happened to have a companion I didn't get that well along with and we didn't talk that much in the morning so I just read the standard works and all the institute manuals and San Bernard manuals associated with them and just kind of get fell in love with the scriptures and I decided that I wanted to be like a scientist of virtue, which is to say, if I wanted to be educated in anything, I wanted to be educated in how to bridge that gap between who I am and who I want to be. So I got back and I changed my major to biblical studies.

And as I went to graduate school, I started focusing my research on moral formation. I study how Christians understand perfection and the means by which they conform themselves to those ideals. And one of the things I learned throughout the course of my studies is just that there is so much goodness in other religions, there is so much goodness in studying those, so I specialize in the writings of ancient Christian authors who lived after Jesus during the time that we refer to as the great apostasy. And there's just such gems of goodness and truth in that kind. And I see my scholarly endeavors as a kind of

natural outgrowth of my commitment to be a disciple of Jesus, which is to say we're all different and God has given us all different gifts and inclinations and desires. And he's given me the gift to be able to appreciate beauty in whatever for my I see it in ancient Christian literature and the morality of monks living in Egypt and 400 AD and it's beautiful to me and it speaks to me. It speaks to my soul in the same way that I assume many of you have or you guys have kind of ancestors that are pioneers and things like that. I don't have that kind of background, but I do see in my ancient Christian, the people I study, I do see a kind of a spiritual kinship there.

Graduate school didn't do anything to challenge my testimony. If anything, it strengthened me. It gave me additional tools to be able to bring the scripture and to understand it better to ask new questions. And just the more I learned, or even when I learned things I didn't agree with, or that didn't sit well with me sometimes, like those were opportunities to be intimate with Christ, to opportunity to reach out to him and say, look, this is something that I might struggle with a little bit

and help me out and he stepped in. And I didn't always have all the answers, obviously, but I felt him there and that was enough. It also, I think the more you learn too, especially about the scriptures, the more you realize that you don't know, and it's that kind of hunger and motivation and curiosity. These gifts that I've seen God to give me, that kind of keep me going and keep me reaching and whenever I screw up, which I do fairly regularly, they keep me turning back to God.

So. That's perfect. That was beautiful. We loved it. What a great day. John, by the way, we've had, we've been in the parables and the miracles. There's nothing better than spending time with that and the Bible scholar like Daniel. Just a lot of fun. And great questions that you are asking us, Daniel, that was fun to kind of talk about it together. What do you see in

there? And we all discovered something. So thank you for the way you did that. Yeah. And thanks for opening my eyes to some things I didn't see before. I think the way we excavate the Texas through questions and just being comfortable to talk about it and acknowledge what we don't know and testify of what we do and come together and learn together. Yeah. Beautiful. We want to thank Dr. Daniel Bessera for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorinson, our sponsors, David at Verla Sorinson, and of course, we want to remember our founder, the late Steve

Sorinson. We hope you'll join us next week. We have more coming up in the New Testament on Follow Him. Today's transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co, followhim.co, and you can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on Facebook and Instagram. All of this is absolutely free, so be sure to share with your family and friends. To reach those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study, please subscribe, rate, review, or comment on the podcast, which makes the podcast easier to fight.

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