Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Matthew 19-20; Mark 10; Luke 18 Part 1 • Dr. Matt Townsend • May 8 - May 14

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

What question would you ask the Savior? Dr. Matt Townsend explores discipleship, self-reflection, and the doctrine of eternal marriage.00:00 Part 1–Dr. Matt Townsend00:56 Introduction of Dr. Matt Townsend03:37 Using paradox as the theme this week07:35 Atonement or alonement and the attachment theory17:39 The family model20:24 Peace amidst the paradox25:14 Pharisees question of marriage, Christ uses doctrine to answer.29:31 Eternal ideal, circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.32:56 Looking for answers through the light. 35:18 President Faust and just cause for divorce. 40:14 The atonement of Jesus Christ will compensate for all.45:32 President Kimball says we don’t find our soulmate, we create it.47:30 Dr. Townsend shares how divorce led him to find light from others.49:23 Turn to the Savior for your specific answers.1:18:10 End of Part 1–Dr. Matt TownsendPlease rate and review the podcast.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.coFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith, and I'm John, by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith, and I'm your host, and I'm here with my lacking nothing co-host John by the way. John I'm lacking intolerant.

There is a point in the scriptures where a young man asked Jesus what lack I yet and I thought if John asked Jesus that question what lack I yet? Jesus would say, John, by the way, nothing. If I asked that of Jesus, he would say, do you want it in alphabetical order or chronological order? Because I have a couple of volumes for you of what you lack. That's what would happen to me. John, we're gonna be in the four gospels again today

and we needed an expert to join us. We have an expert here, who is it? Yes, we're so excited today to be joined by Matt Townsend. And some of you may have already heard that name. Many of you probably heard that name. For more than 25 years, Dr. Matt Townsend has been entertaining and educating audiences with his unique lessons on life, love, and leadership. He blends humor and storytelling to inspire and motivate healthier living at attend the University of Utah, Brigham Young University, and Fielding Institute

has completed his bachelor's degree. I love this part. A few master's degrees and a doctorate degree. Matt has his own coaching practice where he helps people with their marriages, parenting and anxiety with online workshops and in-person sessions. And so many of you may have seen him before on KSL Television Studio 5 with Book Walker.

He has a book called Starved Stuff, Feeding the Seven Basic Needs of Healthy Relationships. And it's fantastic, John. It's a really good book for those searching for better relationship skills. And that can be found on his website. Many years ago, Matt served in the Cordoba, Argentina mission has enjoyed serving in various church callings through the years. His latest favorite callings have been Sunday school teacher and institute teacher. He's been married for 32 years. Greatest love of his life is his wife,

Marty. They're the parents of six children. And one of those took a book of Mormon for me, and through extensive therapy, he's okay now. And one girl and five boys. Thanks for joining us today, man. Thank you. You guys good to be here. It's about time. No. To hang with you too. Yeah, Matt, I am so excited. We have our wonderful listeners out there. And if they don't know you, I think they're going to remember this forever, just because you're my favorite. Yeah. Yeah. Or my day. Ever since the first time I heard you speak, I've a young seminary teacher. And I think we had an in service and you spoke. And I was just uplifted. I was educated. By the way, likewise to you both.

I've learned so much from both of you. I've even learned what not to do, which is also helpful. So it's good that it goes both ways, right? It's good that it goes both ways. Absolutely. So good to be here. Matt, we are going to be in the four gospels today.

So what we do is we, we're just going to hand the reins over to you. Where do you want to start? We've listed here in the manual, Matthew 19 and 20, Mark 10 and Luke 18, Powerpact chapters, yeah, Powerpact. And I've been studying this stuff for the last month straight. And I didn't know where to go. So then I did this weird thing. You guys have you ever tried this? I prayed for insight. And I would actually prayed for it was just simplification. Like was there one idea?

I had it down to five and that was really complicated. So then I'm like, is there one thing? And I woke up just two days ago, and there was a word in my mind that I interpreted that was the answer. And the word is paradox. So what I want to talk about that I think is this overarching theme of these four sections with some really rich stories.

I love them too because they're rich, but they're also very human. This is me. This is you. This is every one of us. We've seen this. We felt this. This is why some of us struggle in the church. This is why some of us struggle in our marriages and in life. But the word is paradox. Okay, the overarching term. And let me just define paradox for anybody that doesn't just love words as much as I do. But a paradox is simply this. It's a concept or an idea where two ideas seemingly contradict, but they actually go together. It actually works together. The exact definition is a situation a person

or a thing that combines contradictory features or qualities, but can actually go well together. Paradox is everywhere. I, for example, love my children with all of my heart, and they drive me crazy. I really get bugged by them, and I love my wife, and we are so different. I love church. And when they said we were going to two hours, I loved it even more if that was possible, right? It's not that I didn't love the three hours, but when I found out it's just two hours and then they were saying, well, it's because we're now going to have a family centered church supported church. It's about the family now

Then I realized no hold on so who's gonna teach my kids in that third hour? Wait, wait, hold on. I'm like no you guys are and I said you know I can't teach my kids and they're like I know neither can we and so The paradox of everything that we have in our existence are these contradictory ideas. And the world is full of some. Here are some examples. The more afraid you are of death, the less you are able to enjoy life. The more something scares you, the more you should probably go do it. The more you fail, the more likely you are to succeed. The less you care about others, the less you actually care about yourself weirdly. The harder you push for something, the harder it will feel to achieve it. Have you ever done this one? The more time you spend shopping, I don't

know if you know this, your buyer's remorse actually goes up. So these are contradictory to what we think should happen. Another one is in the church we see it all the time. The first will be last and the last shall be first. The funny thing is we were told Abraham's story of sacrificing his son is such a paradox. What? The one that we prayed for to get and now you're just going to go off him. Nephi paradoxically needed to get the plates and there were probably a million ways that God could have gotten the plates. And he chose to have the innocent Nephi murder-laven paradox, paradox, and it's so hard. And what we're going to be talking about here are a bunch of different paradoxes that

people are running into. And what I honestly believe just from my coaching world, there's only one place where you can truly get peace through paradox. And it's not going to come from the world. It's got to come from the spirit. It's got to come from our at one minute with Christ. And all of these examples, what the Savior's asking us to do is to create at one minute and just

come follow him. And a paradox is I am going to follow him. I'm already following him. I'm doing everything I need to do. Here's the list. And then let's say you're asked him to just do one more thing and he couldn't do it. That's the list. And then let's say if you're asked him to just do one more thing and he couldn't do it. That's the paradox. Paradox is the theme and why it's important is this. So there's kind of five, I call this the, it's either the atonement cycle or the at one or the allonement cycle. We're either going to be at toning or we're going to be al loaning. And in my world of working with relationships, I see so many people right now that don't know how to attach. They don't know how to be vulnerable enough to be in. In fact, there is theory called attachment theory, which right now they believe about 60

percent of millennials can't safely attach to their most intimate love partners. They can't safely attach to their most intimate love partners. They can't emotionally open up. And so what it basically is, is it's the lack of knowing that they're lovable, the not knowing that they're capable, the not knowing that they belong, and the not knowing that they're safe. And when those needs aren't met,

we generally retreat and we pull away. And what we do is we make up either fight or flight stories. So because we live in a world full of paradox and it's good, this is the opposition in all things that paradox makes us humans, it makes us feel vulnerable. And when human beings feel vulnerable or naked as they learned in the garden, the minute they felt naked, human's natural man kicks on. And when our natural man kicks on, we either fight or we fight. And in a lot of these stories, you're going to see their vulnerability make some fight or flight. And what the Lord's telling us to do is don't do either.

Just stay with me and trust me and have faith in me. And I will deliver you. Stay with me. And as we'll see, one by one, they all go different directions instead of looking for the peace within. So once our fight or flight kicks in, we then, we have a bunch of little patterns we do and we're going to see a bunch of human patterns and the only thing to really fix it, I believe, lasting, that will bring lasting happiness is to seek at one month

with Christ, not just atonement, but also at one month, meaning don't just obey the commandments, become alive in Christ, and literally connect in with Christ, and let him be not just the guide, but the comfort and the peace and the insight and the direction. That's what we're going to kind of slowly go through is four or so stories, however many we can get get to and hopefully show you more and more this theme of paradox and the invitation to come on to Christ. Awesome. That sounds fantastic. Just to get started. Yeah. Joseph Smith made a statement that sounds similar to what you're talking about. I don't know if it is. He said, by proving contrary opposites, by figuring out opposites, truth is made manifest. Oh, yeah, I love that. By proving contrary. So that

sounds a little bit like what you're talking about. Well, it is. And you'll see the proving contrary is, it's all through the scriptures, by the way. What I learned in one of my graduate degrees is this theory called symbolic interaction theory and appreciative inquiry. So if you're going to inquire into an issue, a challenge or a problem, there's kind of two sides you can approach. So when I coach people, there's two sides of every problem we can approach. We can approach the problem side where we're broken, where we don't like each other, where my wife drives me crazy, and we get all mad about it. And that's called the depreciative side. It's where we're broken. Or we can talk about the appreciative side

of where we're healthy or what it would look like if we were healthy. And inherent in every issue is depreciative and appreciative. But as human beings, we are so much more drawn to, amazingly, the depreciative side, which is why when most of us talk about the gospel historically, and every major religion talks about it historically, we talk a lot about the sin, the fall, the broken nature of man, the problem, the evil. What it does is it makes us start overcompensating on the sin side and not actually seeing the

light of Christ's side. And even when we talk of Christ, we talk about his fixing the depreciative instead of attracting to the appreciative side. Even when we talk of Christ, we talk about his fixing the depreciative instead of attracting to the appreciative side. I'm not sure that we're on this earth to just avoid sin. I think we're on this earth to become like him. And every invitation through the scriptures is an invitation to become like him, but I think because so many times it was written by man, we've

ride it depreciatively. That's human nature. It's much more, we are always more inclined to go for the negative thought. We call it negative interpreting in my world. If I was bit by a rattlesnake in my garden, when I go out to the garden, what am I looking for? Every time I'm looking for snakes. But what if I see the garden hose? It's still a hose, but I interpret it like it's a snake. So it doesn't matter if it's a snake or a hose, in my mind it is what it is. To me, whatever story we end up using

as the map for how we get back to God impacts us, there's a bunch of stories we use. And I think every story is important, as we're going through this. You can look at the plan of salvation through the war metaphor, where we're all a bunch of warriors. Your job is to be a fighter and a warrior.

The goal is to win against evil. Christ is our captain, and we see everyone else as either an enemy, a friend or a foe. We need to be vigilant, we need to armor up and the residual feelings of the warring model that we may have learned growing up is contention and division. We are at war. There's a legal model of the plan of salvation, which is you're either a criminal or you're an offender.

You're kind of a dirt bag, quite honestly. The Justice model would say that Christ is our advocate, that we see other people with a judgment of good or bad. We either obey or we pay. And we have residual feelings from that model of a loan, feeling alone, and hopeless. Daniel Judd in his book on mental health in the church talked about whenever we use the legal model

or the justice model in teaching the gospel, and it comes off too heavy and justice and legality, we tend to breed more aversion to the gospel. Yeah. But again, it's just a map to learn how to do it. We have a cleansing model like we're going to go to the cleaners. And our part is we're dirty and stained and it's unacceptable. The goal is cleanliness, perfection.

The Christ's role is the lamb. He's going through his blood, we'll be cleaned. We see others as cleaner, dirty. We judge him binary and we try to stay away from a dirty world. And what we get a lot of times in the cleansing model is the residual feeling of unworthy and ashamed. And you can see some of these models working on these stories we're going to get into about the rich man who was doing everything he could to be legally justified and then god asked him to do one more thing and it kind of tips him there's the financial model of the plan of salvation which is your a debtor your bankrupt your nonprofit will servant the goal is to be in the black role is he's our benefactor. He'll ease the debt, pay the debt. And the daily focus is we play catch up with our collectors. We're constantly playing catch up. And the problem with kind of the

financial model is we we're always seemingly behind. We're never enough because we're unprofitable. There's the medical model where we're sick and we're injured. We stay in the hospital with a bunch of other sick people. And hopefully we're making it better for each other, but sometimes the sick people keep infecting sick people. The Christ is our healer, and we see others as either healthier or less healthy than us. So notice, with every one of these paradigms, they create a comparative mentality.

We're constantly comparing based on the model, and we look to God to be healed, and we at the end either feel hopeful because of healing or we feel broken. Now when we feel broken we should turn to our healer for healing. That's the model. Just two others. One is the school model which means you're on this earth to learn. You're a student. You're here to develop. It's a classroom. You're here to be changed. That's why the fall was so powerful because when God saw that they had partaken, He testified

now you have become one of us. And now you're going to go through the process of becoming. The Savior's role is our teacher. We see others as more or less capable than we are in the classroom. We learn the answers that we need to learn and we try to pass the test. You may have seen the rich servant as seeing this as a student model where it was trying to just pass the test. And then what we fill over time is either adequate because we're progressing or inadequate. But there's one model that I think is restored. I think it's the core of the restoration. It's the model

that when Joseph Smith met the father and the son and was taught that the traditional creeds, they need to be corrected. And I think some of the traditional creeds had some of this modeling going on and thoughts going on But the model was you're my son We're a family And in the second estate There's a first estate where we were the most loving family you've ever seen and each and every one of us new love purely inside and out and new love purely inside and out. And when we're in the family model, we don't see each other as better or worse. We see each other as brothers and sisters. In the family model,

Christ is the big brother, and he's coming to get us. And the goal is to return home and to be like mom and dad. And what we're looking for is family and fellowship as a family. And the daily focus is at one meant and loving one another. So I seek at one meant with my parents, my heavenly parents, and I seek to love one another and at one meant, Zion, with everyone around me. And last but not least, the residual feelings of the family model is loved, hope, and at one. And you belong.

And if you go back to our attachment needs, that takes care of the four needs of, are you lovable? Yeah, I'm in a family. Do you belong? Absolutely. Are you capable? No, but I'm learning. And I have people that will help me.

And are you safe? So I think that's the model that this world needs and I think we need to make sure we're not always using mixed models Maybe we need to stick more to the model of we have a heavenly parent and there's this awesome quote by Parley P. Pratt in the key to science of theology And there's this awesome quote by Parley P. Pratt in the key to science of theology, where he says, after God's spirit children were born, so up in the pre-mortal world before we were born, they were matured in heavenly mansions, trained in the school of love in the family circle, and amidst the most tender embraces of parental and eternal affection. and our embraces of parental and eternal affection. So for eons of time, we were raised to be loving, connected family members.

And then we come to this earth, the veil is lowered and now all of the sudden, paradox starts to take us on. Now when we live primordially, we felt loved, we felt peace, we felt capable, and one of the greatest things is we weren't perfect. We weren't perfect beings. We lacked bodies and experience, but we still felt love, joy, hope, peace, and understanding, which tells me that in the spirit and closeness to our Father, we have the cure to the paradoxical problem. It's always in being and connecting back to home. So I really believe that's what our Heavenly Father and the Savior are doing is just trying

to get us to connect back to home. And when we do, we can stand in the chaos. And I've done this. We had a really close family member or a friend who lost their child in a plane crash. And I'm at the viewing of their son. And I'm hugging my friend. She whispers in my ear because I had taught this idea that we're kind of in the world, in paradox, in our minds going crazy. And we can then actually get into our bodies and be exhausted and sick. And then back into our minds saying, this isn't fair. And then we can go back to spirit and fill peace. And she said, Matt, in and out of the day,

throughout the day, I get into my mind, and I'm overwhelmed by how unfair this is, how not right this is, and my body reacts when I smell his shirt. And then I imagine the Savior coming to me, and he instantly brings me peace. And I'm back to the peace in the midst of the paradox. So that is what we're gonna try to show. Go through these stories and each of the stories are different, but what you're gonna see is that people are fighting for some identity.

They're fighting with their riches, they're fighting with their religion, the Pharisees, trying to catch the Savior. We're arguing about our marriage and divorce, arguing about whether the children should be brought to Christ so that He can touch them. We're talking about some pretty weird stories, but every one of them are nothing more than this weird paradox of, are we going to turn in the moment or not? And if we do, we have the promise of peace. And when we don't, we have the promise of alonement. Awesome. I'm just so struck by how many times we have talked

in the scriptures about the Lord promising to be with us. And the idea of atonement is with us. He's we're at one, but we're not one alone. We're with, so I love those two words. Atonement is with us. He's we're at one, but we're not one alone. We're with so I love those two words atonement and Alonement. It's the opposite. It isn't this world alone. Yeah, yeah, it's the promise at the end of the sacrament prayer that we hear every week always have his spirit to be with us. There's no alone. There There doesn't have to be, you know, so I love that. Thank you. There's a great quote by Joseph Smith in the Joseph Smith papers that's the power of this union and oneness. He says, by union of feeling, we obtain power with God. Nothing is so much calculated to lead people to forsake sin as to

take them by the hand and watch over them with tenderness. When persons manifest the least kindness and love to me, oh, whatever power it has over my mind, while the opposite course has a tendency to arrow up all the harsh feelings and depress the human mind, it is the doctrine of the devil to retard the human mind and retard our progress by filling us with self-righteousness, which we're going to hear in these stories. The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls, to take them upon our shoulders and cast their sins behind our back. If you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another, right? By the

shalmen know, you are my disciples. If you have a loved one to another, to me, the entire gospel is this. It's at one minute. And when we have at one minute, we are turning over the paradox. We're completing the paradox. We can rest now in the piece that passeth understanding. Now we can sit in it, and we can handle the disparity and the lack of fairness, and we can handle the rejection. And the rejection won't go away.

We will just be yoked, and the God will pick up the yoke a little bit more on us. So that's what we're going to try to get into today. Fantastic. So let's start in Matthew 19 and talk about marriage and the little moment of temptation where the Pharisees are trying to tempt our Savior. Like, I would have been a whole different kind of guy with those Pharisees are trying to tempt our Savior. Like I would have been a whole different kind of guy with those Pharisees, that's because I'm not there.

But the Pharisees, this is chapter 19, verse three, the Pharisees also came onto him, tempting him and saying unto him, is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? By the way, notice immediately, negative topic. We're gonna go to the dark side of the issue. And I get it, there's real negative stuff. I do this every day in my profession.

And he answered and said unto them, have you not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female? Okay, he's clarifying. By the way, notice where he goes. He goes to back to the beginning. Yeah, Genesis. He has to go to the doctrine and to the beginning of the doctrine. So there's a great quote that models what the Savior's doing here. Joseph Smith said, if we start right, it is easy to go right all the time. But if we start wrong, it is a hard matter to get it right. So now the

Pharisees are taunting him and taunting him. And where he goes, he doesn't just chase their story. He goes right to the beginning. Now, we could go back with our revealed gospel to the pre-mortal world. And we could go to our proclamation on the family and find out that our identity and gender identity primarily was divine and of God. So have you not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female and said, for this cause shall man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore they are no more twain but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put a sunder. They sayeth unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put

her away? He sayeth unto them, Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered you to put away your wives. But from the beginning, it was not so. And I say unto you, whosoever shall put away his wife, except to be for fornication, and shall marry another committed adultery, and whoso marryeth her, which is put away, doth commit adultery. and who so marry if her, which is put away, Duff committed adultery. So, it's teaching a doctrine and he's teaching a doctrine of eternal marriage.

We've received clarity on this. So, I mean, is the idea that he's saying you can't divorce? Because if that's what he's saying, I'm scared, because my parents divorced when I was nine. So, I've grown up with this divorced parent thing and divorce is again, a paradox of this world. It's an eternal covenant which God puts together. And when God seals it together,

God intends it to be forever. And we know that that can't always be. But one of the things Elder Christopherson is teaching us here is that when God joined Adam and Eve as husband and wife, neither we nor any other mortal can alter this divine order of matrimony. It is not a human invention. What Christ is witnessing and testifying of is

marriage is a godly invention. It is the combination of and bringing together of is marriage is a godly invention. It is the combination of and bringing together of two people. Now Moses was allowed to write the divorcement and would allow people to divorce and the Savior will too. It's the living of a lower law. And President Dalland Oaks taught that Heavenly Father intends for the marriage relationship to be eternal. However, God also understands that divorce is sometimes necessary. President Oaks explained that the Lord permits divorced persons to marry again without the stain of immorality specified in the higher law.

Unless a divorced member has committed serious transgressions, he or she can become eligible for a temple recommend under the sameworthiness standards that apply to other members. So of course, you can divorce. And the ideal is eternal and an eternal marriage. And paradoxically, again, the eternal marriage and the proclamation on the family says, circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. The interesting thing about that,

that is the plan of God, is there's always been individual adaptation. He didn't have Abraham sacrifice Isaac. They had to adapt how they were going to get the plates back. He had to adapt the Kirtland temple, the Navu temple, the independent stop and Salt Lake City. That's a long bit of adaptation. So adaptation and the Israelites and the wilderness, it's the plan. The goal is the process of creating this loving relationship,

not just the existence of the covenant. These teachings about marriage in the New Testament are hard. Yeah, that's brutal. It's just not clear enough, is it? I have a huge document of Dr. Richard Draper about the Shemaay and what was the other school of thought? Because one was, yeah, you can put away your wife for every cause. And the other was more of the, well, only in cases of adultery, which sounds like what Jesus is going to say in verse 9. But then we've got the issue of,

so if you've been divorced and you get married again, is that adultery? Which elder Rokes kind of says, we're not currently enforcing that celestial standard or something. In the institute manual, everybody has it. This is what I love. Everybody can go to library, manuals, I think, adults, and then institute, and find this in their religion to 11 manual. It says this, during the time of the Savior's mortal ministry, divorce was a vexing issue, debated without resolution among the rabbis. For many people, divorce was justified even for trivial reasons. The Pharisees sought to involve Jesus in the controversy by asking his opinion about divorce, in response,

the Savior emphasized the sanctity of marriage by referring to Adam and Eve who provided the ideal of marital unity and permanence. And this is exactly what you are saying, Matt, you have to start right. And so Jesus didn't go right to this exception. He went to, let's talk about what marriage is for. And also, Dr. Camille Frankelson, that we've had on the program before and will again, she said, the first he's asked Jesus is it lawful for man to put away his wife or every cause?

In other words, when am I justified to divorce my spouse? The Jewish law, as these leaders interpreted it, required that a man obtain only a letter of divorce from a legal official. However, what did Jesus start talking about in his answer to them? This is fabulous. I'm still quoting Camille. This is fabulous. Does he talk about justifiable reasons for divorce?

No. He focused on marriage and a sanctity of marriage. Have you not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female and said for this cause shall amand leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, they twain shall be one flesh, what therefore God hath joined together let not man put a sunder. Jesus was reminding these leaders to focus on the principle and then do the best you can in those circumstances. We can spend too much time talking about exceptions rather than the principle which confuses

the real question. To me, it also goes back to that answer that we're going to look at the issue darkly or from the light. And the light is, we know in Moses 3, 18, that we were given a help meet to help us meet the Savior. Help is translated from the Hebrew word, suggesting suitable and equal, and meet is suitable and equal companion, possessing the power to save. We need the partner. Now notice, the Pharisees want to talk about divorce and the decree and the law because the law there believing will save. And they're talking to the Savior as

they're talking about it. And in the Savior is the richness of life. In the Savior is the power to make these decisions. And what we need is the partner that is equal to save us. What we could be getting into instead of the outlier idea of divorce is what does it take to make a relationship work? And why do we need each other? And what do we do with each other? Elder Bednar said, after the earth was created, Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden. Importantly, however, God said, it was not good that man should be alone. One of God's teachings is we shouldn't be alone. We need the tension and the excitement and the goodness and all of the benefits of our relationship to make it through this. And Eve became Adam's wife and helped meet. The unique combination of spiritual,

physical, mental and emotional capacities of both males and females was needed to enact the plan of happiness. Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man in the Lord. The man and the woman are intended to learn from strength and bless and complete each other. So even if you divorce, we need to find healthy relationships and learn this process of becoming one. Remember DNC 130 talks about the same sociality that we have here, the same relationships, eternal relationships, marriage relationships

that we have here, we will have there. They will just be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy. So this is still part of our process of developing. The interesting thing about President James Faust, he made a really interesting comment about divorce that is, he said, divorce in my opinion, and he got into just cause for divorce, should be nothing less serious than a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship,

which is destructive of a person's dignity as a human being. At the same time, I have strong feelings about what is not provocation for breaking the sacred governance of marriage. Surely it is not simply mental distress, nor personality differences, nor having grown apart, nor fallen out of marriage. Surely it is not simply mental distress nor personality differences, nor having grown apart nor fallen out of love. This is especially so where there are children. So it's about learning to become one with a partner and as we righteously learn to become one with

a partner, we can learn to become one with our God and learn to become one with a partner, we can learn to become one with our God and learn to become one with a family and create that family environment on earth that we created and experienced in heaven. And the reality of our existence paradoxically is a lot of marriages don't work for a variety of reasons. And because they don't work, it leaves us in the middle of a paradox. Am I supposed to stay and be hurt emotionally or whatever? Or am I supposed to divorce and move on?

And that is a decision that has to be between you and the Lord. I have seen people make the most incredible decisions to stay. And over time, the Lord worked the relationship through the Spirit, with just one member doing it, and it eventually saved a marriage. I've also seen the Lord, even in my own family life, prompt the marriage to end. And my mother made a hard decision to end. And when she ended it, it ended up being seriously blessed. For me, and it created a space where I would be in the gospel and I would be able to become

what I've become in my life. And remember, Elder Ballard in conference recently talked about more than half of adults in the church today are widowed, divorced or not yet married. Some wonder about their opportunities and place in God's plan and in the church. We should understand that eternal life is not simply a question of current marital status, but of discipleship and being valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ. When Christ comes, he's not checking our marital status. He's checking what we've become. As we've joined into this covenant relationship,

what have we become through it? Valored continues all those who accept the Savior's gracious gift of repentance and live His commandments will receive eternal life, even though they do not attain to all its characteristics and perfections in mortality. So God will provide and take care of us. I'm so appreciative of that because I have family and extended family and all of these kind of circumstances you've talked about. One of the things, and this is just, John by the way is personal opinion,

but I think Maronai's greatest work was accomplished as a single adult. And when I drive down I 15 and I see Moroni alone on top of a temple, I'm reminded of how much of his life he spent alone, but how he thought of us. And I'm going to finish my father's record that they may be of benefit to the Lamanites into the whole world at some future day. And he was a single adult and he found a way to contribute and into the whole world at some future day and he was a single adult and he Found a way to contribute and change the whole world if we don't have him continuing to write

We don't have Moroni's promise. We don't have Mormon 8 and 9 we don't have the book of ether and we don't have Moroni 1 through 10 And that would be a loss And again think of it paradoxically And that would be a loss. And again, think of it paradoxically. So now you are in the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You are on the earth, the one earth that will eventually be the celestial kingdom. You're in the covenant and you're single.

And in the family or in the church, and Sister Sharon Ubank said, being single myself, I get how this feels. You have no wingman sitting at church and sister Sharon Ubank said, being single myself, I get how this feels. You have no wingman sitting at church and is awkward. Parties can be torture. Relatives feel like they can comment when no one should be saying a word. Fitting into the church focused on family can also be challenging. But the reality is that the majority of church members do not live in perfect family situations. I'm not sure anyone lives in that perfect ideal family. So why keep the emphasis? Because the family is our destiny,

and we are on this earth to learn the skills of strong family relationships, no matter what our situation. So whether the dark side is just the brokenness of our own families, why do we talk about the light of eternal family? Because that's our destiny. And that's the destiny, Elder Christopherson says, everyone is promised with confidence,

we testify that the atonement of Jesus Christ has anticipated and in the end will compensate all deprivation and loss for those who turn to Him. No one is predestined to receive less than all that the Father has for His children. And then meanwhile, we're still feeling lonely if you're a divorced person or if you're a single person that wants it. Again, back to the paradox think of all the merits That are the singles that would love to be married and aren't think about although the mothers and fathers that want kids

But can't and paradoxically there's so many people that can have kids, but don't want them This is the paradox and this is where we are learning This is where we grow one one line at a time, one step at a time, we have another trial, even from our family, and then we look to God. We receive peace, and we live another day, or another half a day, or a minute, or a half hour. No.

Matt, John, just to add a little more clarity on these scriptures, there's an article that you can look up. Just go to our show notes, follow him.co. We'll link this. It's called, what, therefore God hath joined together, let no man put a sunder by Dr. Richard Draper, an incredible gospel scholar. I just want to give you a couple of thoughts from his article.

That's the one I was mentioning. Yeah, the schools of thought in the Jewish world. A guy can read ancient Greek like English. I can read on a blackboard. It's amazing. One thing that Dr. Draper does here is he says, you have to take account who the Savior's talking to. He's talking to a group of people who very likely see

divorce not only condoned but proper. When you're done with a person, you just give them a writing of divorcement and go find another. It says, in Jesus' rebuke to these people, he left no grounds whatsoever for divorce. They were therefore adulterers. For they were no proper grounds for divorce, even a writing divorcement did not in God's eye and all their marriages. Further, they contributed to the corruption of the time by setting the precedent for others to divorce and commit adultery as well. And he goes through the schools of thought, Shema, or Hilell,

that the Pharisees were involved in. But then Dr. Draper goes on to say, all the scriptures combined to make one point. The Lord taught against divorce. His new covenant invited his disciples into the higher ideal, demanded by the perfect will of God. In doing so, the Lord emphasized the importance and eternal nature of marriage and the purpose for which God instituted it on the earth for the eternal life, even the deification of his children. So how are we doing toward reaching that ideal standard today? He quotes Elder Oaks, we live in a world in which the whole concept of marriage is in peril and where divorce is commonplace. The concept, the society, has a strong interest in preserving marriages for the common good, as well as the good of the couple, and the children has been replaced. For many by the idea that marriage is only a private relationship between consenting adults, termingable at the will of either. Elder Oaks adds, in contrast to the world's view, modern prophets have warned that looking upon marriage as a mere contract

that may be entered into a pleasure and severed at the first difficulty is an evil mariting severe condemnation, especially where children are made to suffer. Indeed, the kind of marriage required for exaltation, eternal interration, and God-like in quality does not contemplate divorce. In the temples of the Lord, couples are married for all eternity. But some marriages do not progress toward that ideal. Because of the hardness of our hearts, he quotes Jesus there, The Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard. Thus we must conclude that where abuse and infidelity exist divorce must also.

I really like this article and encourage our readers to go there and dive into it. Now Hank, is that on the RSC website? Yeah, I think not. I think not. But yeah, it's on the RSC website? Yeah, we'll link it in the show notes, but yeah, it's on the RSC website. I think Matt has hit on a wonderful point here. This was clearly a situation where they had set up a gotcha and a trap. It just sounds like the Pharisees came under him, tempting him.

We know the motive. It wasn't, I really want to learn the truth about this. It was, here comes a trap. And so then they asked the question, and then it's almost like the reflex. Boom, he answered the question, okay, well then why did Moses say this? You knew they were just waiting for Jesus to answer

so they could do that. So sometimes we talk about teaching in the Savior's way and sometimes I thought, wow, so often when the Savior taught, there were some real adversaries in the same room, which we usually don't have in gospel doctrine class. But boy, Jesus did all the time and they sprung traps for him like this. So it's really interesting to see how he did exactly what Matt was talking about. Let's talk about marriage as an ideal first. And how would you wrap this all up for it's Matt. Yeah. One of the things just as you were even going through it is again it goes back to the paradox of a relationship and what marriage is for and I think we still have a really deeply ingrained deeply ingrained view of marriage is this kind of utopia. It's this you found your soulmate, the completion of the other half of you. And Spencer Kimble blew up the concept of soulmate

that we don't necessarily find our soulmate, we forge it. We create this soul connectedness by working well together. I think another powerful thing that I think is just as valuable to our development on this earth is if you marry somebody that is difficult, that isn't optimal, that is struggling, that is creating tension and problems that might eventually lead to divorce. It is also for your development. You are also still growing. So with Christ in the mix, in the promise and the covenant with you, nothing will be wasted. And instead of thinking as an outcome of the marriage working or not, what we probably ought to be thinking is the means of what

are we becoming in our marriage. A lot of times with my clients, I have them face each other and look at each other and I don't let them talk for five to seven minutes. And then I ask them to just ask a rhetorical question in their head, what is it like to be them married to me? And for five or six minutes, they don't talk, and they just have to internalize. What is it like for her to be, for her, to be dealing with me every day? And it is the most humbling thing, and I think that's where we get back to the Spirit,

and as we allow the Lord into any of our tension, and contention, as we learned in conference, anytime we let him in, he can let the light in. It's through the cracks. And again, this is coming from a boy raised in a divorced family. It's through the cracks of our family that the light got in.

It's through the cracks of having to be shifted off between mom and dad, that I had to look for other light. And I got it from young men's leaders and I got it from brothers and family members and brother-in-laws. I got it from other people that literally raised me up. My young men's leader became my greatest spiritual advisor and he jumped in right in that space and then my father-in-law jumped in another space. So this is why it takes a village to raise a family.

And this is why God put you in the orbit, as Elder Maxwell says, the very same orbit that lit the sky up for the wise men to get to Jesus. That star was put in orbit millions of years before. That same God put you in your orbit to go through what you're going through in your family. So don't give up if it's not ideal. Nothing's ideal, really. In the end, Christ makes everything ideal when we turn to Him.

I was going to say, I have a book on my shelf called Living a Covenant Marriage and I think it's Kenneth Matheson's chapter where he asks a series of questions and that my favorite one is the one you just mentioned. What is it like to be married to me? To seriously and honestly ponder that, that can, I think, lead to some decent humble introspection. It's super helpful. So it sounds like that's what you use. Yeah, I love it. And the spirits brought in instantly. Then the spirits doing the teaching, not me trying to break them down, now they're being changed from the inside out.

So powerful. John, Matt, I think in all of this, it needs to be said that we have listeners who are in so many different, unique situations. We have some who are currently going through divorce, some who are divorced, some who are thinking about getting divorced I Wish we could give them all their answers. It's just wish we could Hug them and say here's what you should do

But we do know we have a loving savior who everyone can go to and get their answers Thanks Hank. I'm really glad you said that. I know there's a lot of people out there hurting looking for answers and generally you don't find answers for specific things on a podcast but your Heavenly Father has specific things for you. So it's nice to know you do have a place to turn. Please join us for part two of this podcast. of this podcast.