Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Moroni 7-9 Part 2 • Dr. Mark Ogletree • December 9-15 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Dr. Ogletree continues to explore how to measure conversion, the love of Christ, and the Book of Mormon’s powerful testimony of Jesus Christ.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM50ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM50FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM50DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM50PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM50ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/VkVVP4AscocALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part II - Dr. Mark Ogletree00:59 Joseph Smith grateful for warning of weakness03:27 Moroni 7:45-48 - Measuring spiritual progress and conversion06:34 Mormon’s age at various moments12:11 Moroni 7:45-46 “Charity never faileth”14:13 Moroni 8:6-17 - Infant baptism18:42 Birth rate and replacement rates20:07 Anti-family is anti-Christ25:55 Elder Holland’s Six Crucial Questions30:26  Moroni 9:4-11 - No love for others35:38 Moroni 9:25 - Missionaries in Sodom and Gomorrah41:33 Dr. Ogletree’s feelings about the Book of Mormon45:59  End of Part 2 - Dr. Mark OgletreeThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part 2 with Dr. Mark Ogletree, Moroni chapters 7 through 9. Here's Mormon saying, if all men had been likened to Moroni, and look at Moroni yelling at Zarahemna, and look at Moroni writing letters to Amalekiah and Amoron, but watch Moroni being meek to God. You don't have to let evil walk all over you. And that really helped us to see you can be strong in the face of evil, but when God's talking or your leaders are talking, that's a different thing, which is what you just illustrated. And it was so cool because right after that, after we came to some of these conclusions, after wrestling with Elder Bednar, I want to say April 2018, gave that talk in

general conference about meekness and just answered it for us. There's a story from the life of the Prophet Joseph Smith that I both love and hate. It's gonna be a good one. It says a woman went to Joseph Smith upset about some things another member of the church had said about her. The prophet told her that if what the person had said was untrue, she should ignore the matter, because truth would survive and untruth wouldn't. The woman felt the comments were untrue, but she was not satisfied with ignoring it. The prophet then told his way of handling such comments. The prophet then told his way of handling such comments. When an enemy had told a scandalous story about him,

which had often been done, before he rendered judgment, he paused and let his mind run back to the time and place and setting of the story to see if he had not, by some unguarded word or act, laid the block on which the story was built. If he found that he had done so, he said that in his heart he forgave his enemy and felt thankful that he had received a warning of a weakness he had not known

he possessed. Oh wow, That's great. Wow. Thank you for showing me that weakness in myself. Aw. But that's meekness, right? Completely. Can you imagine? Hank, I love that story. It goes back once again to that principle that we teach in marriage a lot and in family

relationships, Lord is at eye. It's the first place we go. Another part now to finish chapter 7 is, of course, with charity. I mean, probably the highlight of the chapter, one of the great grand Christ-like attributes. Once again, placing this in context with what goes on in the Book of Mormon, chapters 1 through 9 of a civilization that has lost the spirit, who is murdering, killing a prophet who says, I give up, I'm done, there's no hope in here. Now we have this great sermon on, you know what have changed everything? If we would have had charity, if we could have charity that Christ-like

love. In verse 45, charity suffers long. Elder Holland said, when you read this verse, verse 45, put the word Christ in when you see charity. And Christ suffers long. Christ is kind. Christ envies not. Christ is not puffed up. Christ doesn't seek his own. Christ is not easily provoked. Jesus doesn't think evil. He rejoices not in iniquity, but he rejoices in the truth. One of the great attributes of the Savior, of course, is his kindness, his unfailing charity. And the great hope here in verse 48 is that all of us can obtain charity. Sometimes we have people who will say, well, that's just not me. I'm just not that nice. I don't think I could do that. No, we can because number one, the attributes of God are within us. Lorenzo Snow taught that principle that they're there. But number two, we can pray as it says in verse 48, to pray into the

Father with all energy of heart to be filled with this love so that ultimately when Christ appears, we shall become like Him. We shall see Him as He is, that we may have this hope and be purified even as He is pure. I think it's really awesome to think about a couple thoughts here that just always resonate with me when we talk about charity and kindness, but I think there's probably some among us, myself included sometimes, that may gauge or measure our spirituality by how often we spend in the Scriptures or in the temple or in our callings. Here's Elder Ashton who's actually quoting someone else, but the best and most clear indicator that we are progressing spiritually and coming unto Christ is the way that we

treat others. And I was so grateful to hear President Nelson back to that peacemaker's talk, say almost the exact same thing. He said one of the easiest ways to identify a true follower of Jesus Christ is how compassionately that person treats other people. Once again, there's the measurement really of true greatness and true spirituality is how we treat others by obtaining charity in our lives, this pure love of Christ, the love that Christ has for all of us. That's what really matters. That matters really more than anything else. He really cares about how we treat others. Yeah, I remember Sherry Do telling a story about seeing a church leader ask the question, how do you know when someone's converted and they filled up a dry erase board with

responses and then the leader erased everything except what was right in the middle, how they treat others. Sherry said at first I was like, really? And then she said, as I started studying the scriptures, I was stunned. The one that comes to mind is by this shall all men know. And it's not how many callings you've held, how many books you've read, how many scriptures you've memorized. By this shall all men know if you have loved one to another. And that's gosh, it's right there. That's exactly right. Yeah. Someone pointed out to me once that, and Mark, you've talked about this. If you go to Mormon, in the Book of Mormon, chapter 3 verse 12, he says, I prayed, but it was out faith. And then you go to Mormon chapter 5 verse 2, which you pointed out,

I was without hope. And then they said, but you notice he never loses his love for them. And then in Moroni 7, you can have faith and you can have hope, but charity never fails. Charity endures forever. Yeah. Love never fails. One time I made a chart of Mormon's life of war. He has been at war for most of his life and yet listen to what he's talking about here and how did he do that so quickly? Mormon 2 2 at age 15 leading armies against the Lamanites. Mormon 2 9, he's 19, attacked by an army of 44,000. Mormon 2 15, thousands hewn down an open rebellion against God when he was 32 years old. Mormon 2 22 when he was 35 years old, Lamanites attacked again. Mormon chapter 2 verse 28 when he's 39 years old Nephites retake lands make a treaty with Lamanites Mormon 3 verse 4 he's 49 years old Lamanites attack again Mormon chapter 3 verse 7 he's 50 Lamanites attack the city of desolation Mormon 3 verse 8 when he's 51 Lamanites come down again to battle Mormon chapter 4 verse 1 he's 52 years old Nephites go's 51, Lamanites come down again to battle. Mormon chapter 4 verse 1, he's 52 years old.

Nephites go up and attack Lamanites. Mormon 4 verse 7, at age 53, Lamanites attack Teancum, the city. Mormon 4 verse 15, when he's 56 years old, Nephites attack Lamanites. Mormon chapter 4 verse 16, when he's 64 years old, an innumerable army of the Lamanites attacked. Mormon 5 verse 6 when he's 69 years old, the Lamanites attack again. Mormon 6 verse 5 when he's 73 years old, the Nephites gather at Chemorah for a tremendous battle. This guy has spent his whole lifetime in war and he's giving us this incredible sermon on faith, hope and charity and telling us to seek Jesus, which is remarkable. He did not become what he was surrounded with because of the power of Christ.

That's great. Wow. Insightful. Well, one of the things that I'm always touched by is the love and the charity that's demonstrated in our wards and stakes, you know, across the world. It's so moving of how people take care of each other. I mean, there's, we have a family in our stake right now that there was a serious accident in the family and you can't even help. There's a Google Doc to sign up to help this family and there are so many people on it and you have to like elbow someone to get in there to help bring food or whatever. But I love that about us. It's such a

defining trait. And so President Thomas S. Monson shared this story. He said, not long ago, I received a touching letter from Sister Maury Farmer. It tells of two home teachers. And so we can change that as ministering brothers and the loving service they provided for the farmer family during a time when the family was experiencing some difficult financial circumstances. At the time the service was provided, the farmer family had gone out of town to attend a family reunion. I share with you the first letter written to the farmer family by their ministering brothers or home teachers which the family found taped to their garage door when they returned home. It begins this way. We hope you had a great family reunion while you were gone. We and about 50 of our friends

had a party at your house, a great party. We want to thank you from the bottom of our hearts for the years of unselfish service you both have given to us. You have been Christ-like examples of untiring service to others. We can never repay you for that, but just thought we'd like to say thanks. Signed your home teachers." I now quote from Sister Maury Farmer's letter to me, President Monson said. After reading that note from the home teachers, we entered the house with great anticipation. What we found shocked us so much we were at a loss for words. I stayed up all night crying over the generosity of the people in our ward.

Our home teachers had decided that they would fix our carpet while we were away. They had moved all the furniture out into the front yard so the carpet could get stretched and finished. One man in the ward stopped and asked what was going on. He returned later with several hundred dollars worth of paint and said we might as well paint the house while everything is out. Others saw the cars in front and stopped to see what was going on. And by the week's end, 50 people were repairing, painting, cleaning and sewing.

Our friends and fellow ward members had fixed our poorly laid carpet, painted the entire house, repaired holes in the drywall, oiled and varnished our kitchen cabinets, put curtains on three windows in the kitchen and family room, did all the laundry, cleaned every room in the house, eye wall, oiled and varnished our kitchen cabinets, put curtains on three windows in the kitchen and family room, did all the laundry, cleaned every room in the house, had the carpets cleaned, fixed broken door latches and on and on. In trying to make a list of all the wonderful things they did for us, we filled three pages. All of this had been accomplished between Wednesday and our return on Sunday.

Almost everyone that we talked to told us with tears in their eyes what a spiritual experience it had been to participate. We've been truly humbled by this experience and as we look around our home we are reminded by the kindness and the great sacrifice of time, talents and money that they made for our family. Our home teachers have truly been angels in our lives and we will never forget them and the wonderful things they have done for us. But once again highlighting that those are the type of things that happen maybe not to that extent but for sure those are the type of things that happen across the church everywhere in the world and it really is a hallmark of our identity of who we are we take care of

each other. What's beautiful about that story to me is when those people are inside working and anticipating the surprise this family is going to have when they get back, I bet they're giggling. I bet it doesn't even feel like work. I bet they're so excited going, oh, I cannot wait to see. I cannot wait to see their face. Yeah, it doesn't feel like work anymore is you're giggling with anticipation for their reaction when they get back. It's a great story. Mark, we've had you for a while now and we've just stayed in chapter 7.

Honestly, how much longer could we spend in Moroni 7? Literally, we could talk about this every day for hours. What does that tell you about the Book of Mormon? That even a single chapter is almost bottomless when it comes to what you can learn. Do either of you have anything left in chapter 7 that you want to talk about right now because I want to push us forward into chapter 8 and 9? Three words in verse 46, which have been the Relief Society motto for years, Charity never faileth. Lots of things can fail, but Charity never faileth.

And as you taught us, Mark, that Elder Holland said, put Christ in there, Christ never faileth. I did hear Sherry Do jokingly once say, my charity sometimes faileth, but Charity never faileth. A shout out to the Relief Society, you've had that motto for years. In fact, sometimes you've probably done this too when you're in class talking about this trial

of this family, this, if only there were some sort of, I don't know, society that could bring relief or something. Wonder what we could call them. What would that be? Yeah. Charity is the pure love of Christ. You could have a lot of fun with that.ity is the pure love of Christ. You could have a lot of fun with that. What's the pure love of Christ? Is it love for Christ that we have for Him? Is it the love of

Christ that He has for us? Is it that we love like Christ, other people? Like we said, Moroni 7 is endless. All right, Mark chapters 8 and 9. Wonderful. This is different now. This is not a talk. This is a letter. This is a letter that Mormon writes to his son Moroni. For a minute, maybe all of us think of, okay, what is our passion? What trips our trigger? What does that thing, if it gets brought up, we're just going to go off for a while. We're going to find out for Mormon what it is here because he's talking about in the first couple of verses of praying for his son, giving some good counsel here. And then we get to verse four though. I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth. That's a pretty strong word,

grieveth me exceedingly. Think about that. It grieveth me that there should be disputation. So first of all, I'm really upset about there's disputations. But then I have learned that there are disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children. Now look at verse six. I desire that you should labor diligently that this gross error should be removed from among you. And he says, and this is the entire intent. I'm writing this letter, but that's pretty strong. We got to remove this. In fact, look at this verse seven for immediately after I learned of these things right after I learned about your disputations about infant baptism or child baptism. I wrote this letter and here we go. This is something that really is a passion for Mormon as he's going to teach us about this great teaching and doctrine here. Verse 8, Listen to the words of Christ your Redeemer your Lord and your God behold I came into the world not to call the righteous. He's quoting the Savior here, but sinners to repentance the whole need no

physician, but they that are sick. I couldn't resist looking up the word whole in the Oxford dictionary, unbroken, undamaged, free of defect or impairment, unimpaired, perfect. In Hebrew, completeness or perfection. So we talk about this idea of the whole, little children, they're not going to need baptism in this case it says little children are whole they're not even capable of committing sin he talks about he calls it in verse 9 of solemn mockery that we would baptize little children verse 10 I say to you that this thing you shall you teach repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin and that this is great

actually you should teach parents that they're the ones who need to repent and be baptized so he's on a rant here and then humble themselves and become like their children little children need no repentance they don't need baptism in fact we are to become like children. See Mosiah 3 19, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, all those kind of attributes. He goes on to say in verse 15 that God would be wicked if he supposed that children would need to be baptized. I mean, that's pretty strong. In fact, verse 15, for awful is the wickedness to suppose that God sabeth one child because of baptism and the other must perish with no baptism. It's just pretty strong here.

He's speaking with boldness and with authority. But then he says in verse 17, it's almost like, oh, in case you think I'm getting mad, I'm actually filled with charity. I'm good. All children are like unto me. I love little children with a perfect love. They are all of like and partakers of the salvation of God." Now check this out guys. If you have an electronic version of the scriptures, if you're using a phone or an iPad or whatever,

and click on the related content so it shows us all the footnotes and references on the side. For verse 17, I am filled with charity. I love little children with a perfect love. The cross-reference footnote is actually a portrait of Joseph Smith cleaning with his handkerchief the face of a young boy. And it says the prophet Joseph loved children. I just like the idea in verse 17 where Mormon says, I love little children with a perfect love. That's pretty good company to be in. You got Mormon, you got Joseph Smith, and of course we have the Savior who has taught us over and over again some of these key doctrines of children. I thought I would just share with you a concern using some data just for a second about children in our country. So Hank and John, I think it's

fascinating that we have a whole chapter devoted to the baptism of children. And sometimes we may think, is that out of proportion? Is that out of context? But I think there's a message here of how much the Lord loves children, how much Mormon loves children, how much we should love children. We live in a world today where children aren't as valued as they used to be. So today in a recent study, one-third of millennials said that they don't even want to have children. 34% said they don't want to give up their flexibility. 32% said they don't want the responsibility. 50% of women in our country between the ages of 25 to 29 have not had children and 30% of women between the ages of 30 to 34 are child free. Now listen to this, the replacement rate, I don't know if you've ever heard

this terminology, but the replacement rate in our country and across the world is 2.1. What does it mean? A 2.1 fertility rate means that a father and mother will have two children to replace themselves. I'm sure the 0.1 accounts for infant mortality or something like that, but it's 2.1 is what the rate is. Right now in 2024 in our country, our fertility rate is 1.78, which is one of the lowest times it's ever been, 1.78. In other words, we as a country are not going to replace ourselves. And if anyone thinks that's probably okay, or it's not a big deal, it's actually a huge deal. There was an article in the Deseret News in the month of October that talks about the damaging effects economically and in so many other ways. John, you and I were born in 1962. The fertility

rate in 1962 was 3.39, which means a mother will have 3.3 children in her lifetime. Hank, you just showed up in 78 when it was kind of like it is now. There was a little crisis going on and it was 1.76. It was actually a little bit lower than it is right now, 1.78. So Hank, I'm here to tell you today, it's a miracle that you were even born. We're so glad that you're here. Especially since I was number five of five. Yeah, exactly. We live in this world.

We're becoming a childless society, which as you guys know would extinguish ourselves pretty quickly. It's an anti-child, anti-family world in so many ways and in so many places. And you may remember in Julie Beck's wonderful talk called Teaching the Doctrine of the Family back in 2010, that if it's anti-family, then it's anti-Christ. And if it's anti-Christ, it's anti-family. We're not about just having children, it's not just about replacement rates, it's about loving children, it's about nurturing children, it's about leading them and laughing with them. If we're going to be full-fledged followers and disciples of Christ, then we need to follow Christ's example of how He loved and valued children. And when our family proclamation that tells us that children are a heritage to the Lord,

that Psalms 127.3, but often we don't read that whole verse, but here it is. Children, they're talked about in that verse of Psalms 127 verses 3 to 5. Children are in heritage of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is his reward, as arrows are in the hand of a mighty man. So are children of youth and happy is the man that hath a quiver full of them. A quiver full of children, a home full of children. President McKay, a newborn babe is the most helpless creature in the world. But also he said, our children are our most precious possessions, our treasures of eternity, those are our children.

These merit and should receive our greatest and our most constant care and guidance. President James E. Faust, no gift bestowed upon us is so precious as children. They are proof that God still loves us. Here's President Monson, when we realize just how precious children are, we will not find it difficult to follow the pattern of the master and our association with them. Some of us are familiar with Christ taught about children. We know that he loved children. He talked about them often for of such he said is the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is made of children or people who are like children. Except you be converted and become as little

children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Or how about this one, whoso should offend one of these little ones. It were better for them to have a millstone hanged about their neck and they be drowned in the sea. That's so powerful when you think of how Christ felt about children. I think some of the great artwork we have today is Christ and the children. But back to that footnote 17 of Joseph Smith. This is Truman Madsen. Remember the picture of Joseph Smith for the footnote? Many have observed that Joseph's love for children was remarkable, that he seemed to find deep happiness in playing with a child on his knee or in helping one cross a muddy field or picking flowers to give to children or wiping away their tears. I believe that the

response of those children and we have record of many to him is one of the lasting witnesses of the nobility of his soul. Children are not easily deceived and many have described how they felt in his presence, how he loved children. And you guys are probably aware of some of those great stories, but there's so many of Joseph reaching out. Here's one, Joseph would make his way to as many of the wagons as he could, as they were coming into town, cordially shaking the hand of each person, every child and young babe in the company were especially noticed by him and tenderly taken by the hand with His kind words and blessings.

If we want to be true disciples of Christ, we've got to put this back on the map. It's a great indicator of how we're progressing spiritually is how we treat others. But how about this? Another great indicator of our spiritual progression is how we treat children and how we treat other people's children as well. It's one of the great marks of discipleship in my mind and something that we can't lose as the world slips away from children and their value and their importance to our society and our world. As members of the church, we can't. We have to value and love the children and to take care of them and protect them. I love it. I don't know if either of you remember Elder J. Ballard Washburn. I found him to be such

a wonderful, strong member of the Quorum of the Seventy and talk about Meek, a Meek Meek man who was strong and powerful. He's the one that someone told the story of standing up in the middle of an exam in medical school and saying, if one of you cheats, I'll turn you in. Right now, I sacrificed all this money. I live in a one bedroom apartment with my wife and five kids and I'm working my way through medical school. Here's J. Ballard Washburn. He says this, he says, the story is told of Elder Boyd K. Packer. After traveling all over the world and seeing many exotic places, he was asked if he could go anywhere in the world Where he would go and he said I would go home and then elder J ladder washer and said I feel the same way if I were asked the same question

I would say I would go home and I would sit in a big rocking chair And I would take a couple of grandbabies in my arms and hope that a little of the heavenly dust They still have on them would rub off on me I feel the same way I would sit in my big chair with two or three of my grandkids and rock them I don't need to go anywhere else elder Holland in his talk a prayer for the children Which the three of us recommend to any of you you got to hear him. Yeah, cuz there's so much passion any of you. You gotta hear him. Yeah, because there's so much passion. He asks some questions to all parents because this moves us from little children to maybe even older children

and teenagers. We as parents need to be the prime teachers of the gospel in our homes and have this great influence on our children, this great impact that only parents can have. Here's Elder Holland, six crucial questions for all of us. Number one, do our children know that we love the scriptures? Do they see us reading them and marking them and clinging to them for daily life? Number two, have our children ever unexpectedly opened a closed door and found us on our knees in prayer? Have they heard us not only pray with them, but also pray for them out of nothing more than sheer parental love? Number three, do our children know that we believe in fasting as something more than just an obligatory first Sunday of the month

hardship? Do they know that we have fasted for them and for their future on days of which they knew nothing? Number four, do they know that we love being in the temple? Not least because it provides a bond to them that neither death nor the legions of hell can break. Number five, do they know that we love and sustain local and general leaders of the church imperfect as they are for their willingness to accept callings they did not seek in order to preserve a standard of righteousness they did not create." Isn't that so profound the way he says that? And then number six, that those children know that we love God with all of our heart and that we long to see his face and fall at the feet of his only begotten son.

He said, I pray that they'll know this. And said, not only the responsibility that we have to love and nurture our children, but to teach them these gospel truths. Because if we don't, who's going to? And said, not only the responsibility that we have to love and nurture our children, but to teach them these gospel truths. Because if we don't, who's going to? Like Stephen R. Covey said once that the greatest investigators of the church that we have are our own kids. Mark, you pointed out that Mormon is very passionate about this.

Compared to some of the other things he talks about, he seems most passionate about this. I'm certainly not sure, but perhaps he's concerned about what infant baptism says about God, about the Lord and His nature. He says it twice, verse 20, that is denying the mercy of Christ. He says it again in verse 23, it is mockery denying the mercy of Christ. He says it again in verse 23, it is mockery denying the mercy of Christ. Perhaps the doctrine says that Christ is not merciful. Maybe that's what's getting Mormon so riled up, is you're missing the whole point. If you are going to baptize infants, you're saying Christ is not merciful. You can see why that creed or that belief would

not be pleasing. Mormon would say, that creed is an abomination in my sight. Well, yeah, they're not recognizing the nature of God, once again, in his mercy that extends to these children. And then he also talks about this idea that in order to be baptized, you have to be able to repent. And little little children they don't know how to do that yet and that's where he turns it and says parents you're the ones you repent and get baptized first but they're not there yet yeah christ mercy covers that verse 22 all little children are alive in christ i love that and the power of redemption cometh to all of them he says I love that. And the power of redemption cometh to all of them, he says.

There's a story. This one is from Robert C. Oaks. Wasn't he a general? He was a general in the Air Force, yeah. He told this story in General Conference. It's another one of those that I love and try to live up to. He said, recently I attended the funeral of a lifelong friend. His son told a beautiful story.

When the son was in his youth, his dad owned a motorcycle dealership. One day they received a shipment of shiny new motorcycles and they lined them all up in the store. The boy did what every boy would like to do and he climbed on the closest one. He even started it up. Then when he figured he had pushed his luck far enough, he jumped off. To his dismay, his dismount knocked the first bike down. Then like a string of dominoes, they all went down one after another. His dad heard the commotion and looked out from behind the partition where he was working

Slowly he said well son we'd better fix one of them up and sell it so we can pay for the rest of them That's a good dad right there I think my friend's response personifies parental patience This isn't just about infant baptism, but it's about how we see children, how we treat our children, how do we see the value of children in our society. Thanks for that. Well, Hank, thank you so much. Chapter 9, this is the second epistle, and once again, for me personally, trying to embed this back in the Book of Mormon chapters 1 through 9, have to wonder if some of the letter that was written here, some of this could have been done or addressed, maybe while we're back that deep in the Book of Mormon, you know, and I'll show you why I think

that in just a second. We're talking about in this chapter, some serious challenges that the Nephites have here. As we look at verse four, tell me if every parent hasn't thought this before. I am laboring with them continually. And when I speak the word of God with sharpness, they tremble and anger against me. But when I use no sharpness, they harden their hearts against it. Or in other words, if I say something, they get mad. If I don't say anything, they don't do what we're asking them to do. Nothing happens. Yeah, nothing happens. Yeah, I think Elder Holland said it once, subtle doesn't seem to work. So he says, I fear lest the spirit of the Lord have ceased striving with them. Now in my little margin here, I wrote the word hopeless a while back. And

then I remembered from our conversation just now that back in Mormon chapter five, verse two, I was without hope. There's that phrase again, and you wonder if this is why he was at without hope, there was nothing he could do as a leader. They weren't responding. Once again, I fear that they're going to lose the spirit. Mormon understood what happens to a society when they lose the spirit. This is a great warning to all of us of what could happen to our civilization if we lose the spirit of the Lord in our lives and among our people. They became so wicked in verses 9 and 10 of chapter 9 that they literally this is like rape,

plunder, murder, cannibalism. This is about as low as you can go in a society. In fact, in verse 11, they are without civilization. There is no civility here. There is no respect for others. There's no love for others. There's no care and concern for other people. He adds, they are without principle. They are past feeling. All those withouts. Order, mercy, civilization, principle. And once again, we liken everything to our day, but just think, okay, what can become of our society if we give away our values, if we're without principle, if there's no right or wrong? It doesn't work. This is what it leads to right here. The final plea in verse 25 is be faithful

in Christ. And just think that he's saying this in a context of a war-ridden, wicked society that guys hang on to Christ, hang on, he's our only hope. We can make it if we hang on to him. The great council, I think President Nelson has been so prophetic in our day. I'm not sure if I remember in my lifetime a prophet that when he spoke, it was almost as if every sentence were a verse of scripture in President Nelson. The very first message, maybe the most repeated quote of his entire ministry, is this one, that, I am optimistic about the future, it will be filled with opportunities for each of us to progress, to contribute, to take the gospel

to every corner of the earth, but I am also not naive about the days ahead. We live in a world that is complex and increasingly contentious. The constant availability of social media and a 24 hour news cycle bombard us with relentless messages. And if we were to have any hope

of sifting through the myriad of voices and philosophies of men that attack truth, we have to learn to receive revelation. And then he gives this great promise that we will see miraculous indications that God, the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, preside over this church in majesty and glory. That's such a great promise. But in the coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, and comforting constant influence of the Holy Ghost. Now, often when we share this statement, we stop right there and don't read the next part, which says, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive

revelation. That's an invitation to every one of us. But once again, we're looking in Moroni 9 at a society that completely lost the spirit and almost turned animalistic, you know, we could say, for us to become saints and to be refined and polished and to live in a day of chaos and craziness and uncertainty. We have to have the Spirit, the Holy Ghost with us to give us guidance and direction, but it's also that Spirit that helps us to become more Christ-like, that sanctifies us and cleanses us and prepares us to stand in the presence of the Lord. I love it. Hank and Mark, we had a previous guest who talked about the yeah but they principle for choosing your own behavior.

I've always loved verse six. Now my beloved son, notwithstanding their hardness, which he's going previous guest who talked about the yeah but they principle for choosing your own behavior. I've always loved verse 6, now my beloved son notwithstanding their hardness, which he's going to describe some pretty awful terms, let us labor diligently. I've always loved this idea of you don't have to go with the flow. Whatever they're doing, we can do something different. Let us labor diligently. Do you guys remember Truman Madsen? He told some sort of little legend he said about a missionary in Sodom and Gomorrah and somebody said to him, why do you continue to preach here? Why do you

continue to labor? You're not doing any good here. His answer was, well, at first I preach so that I might convert them and now I continue to preach so that they won't convert me. There's great power in do what you're supposed to do, not withstanding them. Let us labor diligently because we have a labor to perform in this tabernacle of clay. We're going to do what's right. We're not going to do what's popular necessarily as this society is breaking down. And here's this father and son saying, we can do this, son, which I just love about this chapter. Another verse that I've always loved here is verse 25.

My son, be faithful in Christ. May not the things which I have written grieve thee to weigh thee down. Everything you just quoted, Mark, from President Nelson, he doesn't seem weighed down. He's telling us how to face the future. He's very aware of what's going on out there. But like Mormon here, I didn't write this to weigh thee down, but may Christ lift thee up. May his sufferings and death and the showing his body unto our fathers, look at this, the atonement, the resurrection, his mercy and long-suffering and the hope which he talked about of his glory and of

eternal life rest in your mind forever. Is that the best way to close a letter you've ever heard in your life? So encouraging and building. Yeah. And I've told you a bunch of really bad stuff about what's going on, but this is what I want to leave in your mind, to have rest in your mind. It's a great closing. It is. I've always found it interesting that in Mormon, I think it's Mormon chapter five, Mormon says,

I better not tell you of all that I'm seeing. I do not want to harrow up your soul with all that I'm seeing. Then Moroni says, well, I will, right? He includes the letter. Why'd you put that letter in there? I said I didn't want to tell them. Mark, I've noticed something in what you've taught us here and since you're an expert and we're gonna channel Janie's expertise through you as well. Mormon is trying to raise a faithful child in a very terrible world. You have children who are now having children and you've taught family classes and you have the family podcast. So what comes to mind when those of us who are parents out here are going, how do you do

this? How do you raise Moroni's in a without principle world? It's a great question. Here's how I would answer it. To me, there's a couple of things that we could do. Number one is we have to shut down the doom and gloom of the world that's constantly pounding in our ears through media, through social media. And this great book that's out right now, you guys may have heard of it by, I think

his last name is Height, called The Anxious Generation. It's his recommendation that children should not even have cell phones and have access to social media until they're 16. And the reason why is because what his research has shown is that this generation is being ruined on social media and with the influence of the world. If I was a parent again today, we'd be watching that really closely, number one. Number two, we'd be anchored in the gospel as much as we can and teach our children that there's great hope and there's great power and there's great strength that comes from living the gospel, from keeping commandments and covenants, but putting the gospel at the center of our lives and also following prophets.

That's a serious thing that our prophets literally have the words that can save us physically and spiritually. Now, going away from that a little bit, we know that the world is going to become crazy and it's going to only get crazier. That doesn't mean that we have to have our lives ruined. I take great, great hope and great comfort once again from our leaders, from our prophet Seers and Revelators like President Nelson who are telling us that you can have happiness, that you can have joy in this life if you're focused on all the right things. Back to the idea of look unto me in every thought, doubt not, fear not. What are we focused on? What are we building our foundation

on? Because if we're building that foundation on Christ and the gospel, if we're having gospel discussions in our home, if we're having fun with our families, making our home the kind of place where our children want to be, and they want to be around their parents, they want to be at home where they're having fun with their siblings. And then their friends are coming over and having fun at our house as well. But those are the type of things that I would try to focus on. But also, I would really want my children to know that there's so much good in the world, you know, that there's so many good people. God's kingdom continues to move forward. We saw that during COVID. A lot of

people weren't paying close attention, but if you were, you saw. While the world was shutting down, we were building temples, opening up new missions. The baptisms continued. We live in a world today now where, according to Brent Nielsen, one of our general authorities, 20,000 baptisms a month in the church, temples dotting the land. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Those are the optimistic, hopeful things I would want my children to be paying close attention to. That as the world slips away and spirals downward, we can keep going upward. We can follow the model of the church. The church continues to march on and march forward

and build with momentum and steam because it's true and it's led by living prophets and by the Savior himself. So awesome, isn't it? Yeah. Mark, can I ask you one last question before you let you go? Yeah. You have gone to a lot of school. You've done a lot of teaching. You've held a lot of church callings. You preside over a stake right now. You've read a lot of studies. I'm sure you've read parenting books and family books. In all of your experience, where does the Book of Mormon rank in what you've seen, what you've read, what you've done?

Where does the Book of Mormon fall in your life? Well, obviously it's number one. The Book of Mormon is our guiding star. It's the keystone of our faith. It's the keystone of our religion. But what the Book of Mormon does for me, and I think for many others, is once again, having grown up in other faiths and other churches,

I now know and understand the atonement of Jesus Christ better and in a more complete way than I ever could or would have anywhere else in my life at any other stage of my life. I mean, the Book of Mormon opens that up to us. It's the teachings of the Book of Mormon, once again, that give us hope. You know, we feel the power and the strength. I know that all three of us have read a lot of stuff in our life, but have you ever been so illuminated as when

we read from the pages of the Book of Mormon? Even as I've read the New Testament and other wonderful scriptures, there's still something different about when you read the Book of Mormon. We're raising our children in Texas. Our five oldest are in high school almost at the same time. One day I turn to my wife and say, you know what we need to do? We live here in the Bible Belt. I think it's time. We read the Book of Mormon several times now as a family. It's time to read the New Testament. And my wife is always so good. She just looked at me and she said, I'll tell you what, you find a promise, like from President Romney and others, of what happens when you read the Book of Mormon. You find a promise like that when you read any other set of scriptures,

and we can cross over and read some of those too, but until you find promises like the peace and love in our homes, the depth of conversion in our hearts, the spirit that we feel when we read, when you find that, all right, we'll start reading that. But until then, we're going to stick with the Book of Mormon. Yes, the Book of Mormon is the guiding star for us because it's full of truth.

And as we read it, we can be personally inspired and receive our own personal revelation because the Book of Mormon is full of truth in God's word. Mark, thank you for spending your time with us today. You're so kind to come over and bring your expertise, your experience. Guys, this has been an awesome opportunity to be with both of you. Yeah, this is what we do for fun, everyone.

We open scripture and talk about it. We are very grateful to have had you. And with that, we want to thank Dr. Mark Ogletree for spending his time with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, the wonderful Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. John, it's Moroni, chapter 10. Our last lesson in the text of the Book of Mormon. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's

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