Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Moses 7 -- Part 2: Dr Avram Shannon

Episode Date: January 23, 2022

Dr. Avram Shannon continues to discuss the creation of a Zion people, a God that weeps, and man's redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers/SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. I'm excited to get into this vision of Enic because I think it's so fascinating, especially the idea of God weeping. Enic's done it. He's built Zion. He did the one heart, one mind. This is a great success story. In the verse 20. And he came to pass the Enic, talked with with the Lord and he said unto the Lord, surely Zion should dwell in safety forever. Like we've done it, we've made it. But the Lord said unto enich, Zion have I blessed. But the rest of the people have I cursed. This notion that the enich has this confidence, say, we've done it, we've made it. And the Lord says, we're not done yet. There's more to happen.

And actually, a lot of what we're gonna see in the vision of Enic is Enic trying to figure out when are we finally done? Well, can you translate that for me? The end, Zion have I blessed, but the residue of the people have I cursed, meaning I don't think the Lord's saying, I'm cursing them, it's, yes, you chose Zion,

but there's still a lot of people who haven't. Is that right? No, that's the guy who he's saying. And we'll see that later on. Again, this notion of agency, verse 33, you know, he says they want them to choose me, but they chose not. The Zion's taken up.

You know, the bosom of the Father and the Son of Man, and behold, the power of Satan was upon, it was on all the face of the earth. That's verse 24. That's a 24, 26. And he be held Satan and he had a great shame in his hand and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness. And he, that is Satan, looked up and laughed.

And his angels rejoiced. This is a really, really bleak picture that this vision is painting for Enoch, but then 28, and this is so key. And it came to pass the God of heaven looked upon the Reservant of the people, and he wept. And of course, this notion of the God weeping and Enoch's book, record of it, saying, how is that the heavens weep and shed for their tears as rain upon the mountains? As we think about God weeping, one thing that's very intriguing about this is it's framed in Moses 7 as rain. God weeping, Enica seeing it as as rain. It's worth noting, perhaps, that as Genesis and therefore probably Moses frames it, it doesn't reign

until the flood. Remember in the creation story, it says, a miss came up and watered the earth because the Lord had not yet caused it to reign upon the earth. Okay, so it's not just God weeping that's distinctive to Enic here, but it's also the notion of reign itself is distinctive. Really interesting things with this notion of rain and things like that. But noting that God weeps and in exceeds it as rain, how is the heavens weep?

Why is the sky crying? Am I gonna connect this to the flood? The sadness of God, the weeping of God becomes the flood of Noah. Yes, as Moses said in frames it, the flood happens because God is crying over his children. Yes. Interesting. It's beautiful. Yeah, I just think that is poetry. Shed forth their tears as rain upon the mountains. And I wanted to ask you because I don't know how else you would interpret the idea of a chain except for slavery bondage something.

If he holds a chain in his hand and he's wrapped around the world, it sounds like symbol there of he's got control, slavery bondage, whatever. But I love that in the imagery that it sounds like Satan is looking up, it says he looked up. So he was below it, but God, if the rain is falling, I'm thinking God is above and looking down, and the rain is falling on the mountains, and it's kind of a frightening imagery, but I like the idea of him looking up,

and God looking down. Also, when I've taught this, I talk about Satan laughing I can't find the Savior laughing. I can find him in third Nephi smiling, his countenance smiled upon them twice But I can't but it's Satan that seems to laugh and it's probably a sound that Enic probably never forgot Doc, I'm 88 without much laughter for this is sin. Right, there's this notion that there's a kind of laughter, I mean, obviously joy in whatever, there's a kind of laughter that the Lord disapproves of. And then, you know, in 3rd Nephi, what is it nine?

The devil Laffeth and his angels rejoice, you know. We have references to Satan laughing, but it's a, I got you kind of a laugh. It's a, I've got you in chains type of a laugh. Laughing at those who are addicted, laughing at those who are, yeah, in bondage to sin. But I love that, I mean, we're reading it. Well, I see why God's weeping, but Enic just,

I don't want, what? Yeah, I know exactly. And Terrell Gibbons and Fiona givens, of course, are written. Yeah, they wrote that book. It's a great book on the weeping God and they point out this notion that Enic's question is not why are you crying, but how? How can you cry? Right? Enic's of the Lord. How is it that can't sweep seeing as thou art holy and from all eternal eternity? This is very reminiscent of what we saw in Moses 1. And we're at possible that man could number the particles of the earth, how to follow the atoms of the earth and the lots like it. It would not even be beginning of your creation. And you know, it could just stretch out here, we're here, you're picking Zion up, everything's great,

there's not but peace, justice and truth in the habitation of Ithrone. This is verse 31, and mercy shall go forth by their face and have no end. How? How can you cry? And this is very, very important. One because it tells us a little bit of something about the nature of God, but it also tells us a little something about ourselves and about what it means for us to be like God.

Because sometimes we get this notion almost that being more like God means suppressing our emotions. It means that the people are most like God, you know, don't, you don't get sad. It's almost this loud and state notion of we have to be happy all the time, right? You know, and smile. And smile, and the God's will just Christ brings us joy. There's no question about that. But what this shows us here, and there are other places of Christ's truth to do this, this

shows us that as loudatter-day Saints, we do not believe in a God who does not feel emotions. I mean, I'm scripted as very clear. The Lord gets mad. And so part of this is recognizing that as we learn to be more like God, it's not about learning to suppress our emotions. I think it's helpful when we're teaching the story of Lazarus and John that Jesus wept

and it's always a fun question. Well, he knew he was about to raise him from the dead, but in Mosaic, how does it mean to become a saint? We mourn with those that mourn. And I like that idea. Perhaps Jesus was mourning with those that mourn. And I like that idea. Perhaps Jesus was mourning with those that mourn. He felt what they were feeling. And even though he knew he was about to raise Lazarus.

And it goes with, should not the heavens weep seeing these shall suffer. He's got the people divided into, I can't, this is an odd dichotomy, but it's like Zion and the residue. Yes. No, it's not even the rest of y'all y'alls but it's like Zion and the residue. Yes. No, it's not only the rest of y'all, all y'alls, you know, Zion and residue, but he's so concerned about the residue.

It's kind of cool. Yeah, no exactly. That is interesting, John, because Enix, like, we did it, we built Zion. And God's like, that's not the whole story. I care about everyone, actually. Let's talk about the residue of the people and and weep about them. Yeah. Not that that's great stuff. All the people that aren't in your city have you thought about them? Oh, are there others? Enic is very focused on his people things succeeded

and the Lord says, let me broaden your vision here. Yeah. And I most days feel more like residue than Zion anyway. So, surely. So, what do I do with this weeping God here and his explanation in verse 32? It is important. He says, look, behold these thy brethren. And by the way, Josh Sears, you also had on your show, wrote a very, very good article, covenant of compassion for Old Testament's very symposium. He's got one on, behold these light brethren about Enic and Enic's response to God and that can help us.

Okay, so he says, behold these light brethren, they're the works I own hands and I give them knowledge. And the Garden of Enic gave them, I gave them and his agency. And by the way, Joseph changes that later in when he revises, this doesn't make him changes that later in when he revises, instead of making the publication, but when he revises JST, he changes it to

and man had agency in the Garden of Eden rather than I gave him agency in the Garden of Eden, which is again. Oh, interesting. Whoa. I suspect the Joseph's ongoing knowledge about our eternal nature with that. But that's, I think, one of the significant changes that Joseph makes to OT2 that didn't make it into our book of books. Wow. Okay. Then he goes here, and under that brethren, have I said, and also give him commandment,

that they should love one another, and they should choose me, or back to choice here, their father, but behold, they are without affection and they hate their own blood. And the fire of any nation is kind of against them. And in my heart to special, I will send in the floods upon them for my fierce anger is kind of against them. With really good reason, we kind of struggle sometimes with the anger of God, but sometimes we, as Latter as he says, we get so much on Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ as separate beings, so we can turn Heavenly Father into the mean God and Jesus into the nice God.

Right? We almost want to... And the Book of Mormon does some of that work. It doesn't quite get there, but of course, it's not like Heavenly Father is the just God and Jesus Christ is the merciful God. Jesus Christ, everything is merciful to Heavenly Father is, and Heavenly Father is just as Jesus is. I mean, they're... Yeah, they're one.

They're the same. But with this, I had a, maybe a story that helps with it as I think about, again, we have both God's sadness, but also God's wrath in the same section here. God not suppressing his emotions. I had a friend of mine who was teaching for us and he was teaching Jesus Christ cleaning the temple and and had a student raise his hand and say this doesn't seem very Christ-like to me. And of course, Jesus wasn't being very Christ-like.

Jacob says, well, Jesus was doing it so by definition definition, this is Christlike behavior. And then he said, and I think this is so powerful. He said, but what I think I hear you say is, I'm not sure that I could be Christlike and do that. And part of us, we think about emotions, we think about anger, we think about even sadness. We think about anger, we think about even sadness. There is no shame, there is no sorry, in having emotions. Being angry is not wrong. It cannot be wrong. God's angry. The question is, what do you do with it?

What do you do with your emotions? God is angry with his people, but again, I think it's key. He's angry with them because they're hurting each other. And he says, I'll send out my floods against them. We talk about the flood and we talk about, you know, why was the flood sent? And we say, oh, it was wickedness. The scriptures are very, very specific about what that wickedness is. If you go to, this is outside of our chat or block for day But if you go to Moses chapter 8 verse 28 just turn the page a couple pages there and the earth was corrupt before God

And it was filled with Violence the reason according to the scriptures that the Lord sends the flood is Violence he says look I Said they should love each other. They should choose me, but they hate each other. They hate people they should love. They hate their own blood. And I can't take it anymore. The thing the Lord hurt, the, what, hate to warn anything else is his children hurting each other. In verse 33, next to it, I wrote the two great commandments. And I wasn't keeping

track exactly, but I felt like in their our October 2021 general conference, we heard that those two love God and love your neighbor half a dozen times, maybe from different speakers, preparing their talks independently. But I think they're both in their love one another and choose me their father. Both of the two great commandments being violated there. If you were to boil the gospel Jesus Christ down, that's what I'd boil down to. Love God and love your neighbor.

And of course, when Jesus says that in the scripture, He's quoting the law of Moses. You know, love God comes out of Deuteronomy and love your neighbor comes out of Leviticus. Yeah. So what is the great commandment in the law? They mean in the Torah. Yeah.

And so it's worth noting, this is not something that Jesus invented. This has been the Lord's standard forever. The Lord's compassion doesn't mean he's not going to send the flood, but that's what's making him cry, right? 37, but behold, there's sin shall be upon it, so their fathers, Satan shall be their father, and measure with the doom, and the whole heaven shall weep over them. Even all the workers of mine hands, wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer." There are a couple things I think that are

powerful about this. One, you know this instinctively, right? The people who are closest to you are the people who can hurt you the most. Right? You know, some stranger says some random comment on the internet, you're like, water off my back. But your brother, your sister, your wife, your children, your friends, that's really what hurts. One of the things I think Moses 7 teaches so strongly is that God loves his children enough to be vulnerable.

He loves his children enough that he lets himself cry. And for me, just the thought that I'm loved enough that when I hurt, again, you look at this, right? And you see, again, I like your point there earlier, John. You know, you see all these people doing bad things and Satan looks up and says, this is the best thing ever. He loves it.

He laughs. And you see the Lord, look down, he said, hurt each other and he's like, and it makes him cry. And then it makes him cry even the more that he has to cause more because because he's got, you know, he's got to stop this. He cannot. Okay, I said this word, but I'll say it again. The one thing God hates more than anything else is his children hurting each other. I think what Jesus says about what happened, well, what, what, what, what is it opinion about people who abuse children? Yeah. Better than a millstone be. Yeah. He says, tie a giant rock

around their neck and throw them in the ocean. And again, this is the nice god guy, you're right, you know? Yeah. I love your point of mourning those that mourn earlier. One of the things I love about Moses 7 is this recognition that when you cry, you've never cried alone. It's a lone and dreary world out there. It's a terrible place. There's a lot to cry about. But I love remembering, again, the God who we recognize is that, again, you've never cried alone. There's real power in that. I think, you've got my mind racing. I just I love how the story of Job starts when

the friends come and just sit with them. As soon as they open their mouth, everything goes south. But when they just come and mourn with him that is mourning, what a comfort it must have been to Job. My friends are here, you know? Coming to mind is Hebrews 4.15. And it's speaking about Jesus, but it says, we have not an high priest, which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities. He's not a God that is watching from a distance. Wow, look at that.

But he feels it with us. He's mourning with us, what are we mourn? And seeing the wickedness, it touches him and he weeps. Basically the answer to this question is, you know, in a cath, how can you cry? And God says, how can I not? This directly ties to the flood, you know, verse 40. Wherefore for this show the heavens weep,

ye and all the work should of my hand. I never, oh God, you never connected this show the heavens weep, ye and all the work should of my hand. I never connected this to the flood. This is so good. Moses 7 understands the flood is God weeping and it's beautiful. And it came to pass, the Lord's, this is kind of Josh's point and the article I suggested. It came to pass, so the Lord spank unto Enic and told Enic all the doings that showed the men, wherefore Enic knew and looked upon their wickedness and their misery and wept and stretched forth his arms and his heart swelled wide as eternity and his bowel yearned and all eternity shook.

Enic looks and he says, part of the whole thing about this vision is the Lord says, let me show you the way I see things. Just for a moment, he's already built Zion, but Yenik has this problem where he's kind of saying but but you know, but everything's great And the Lord says yeah, everything's great, but everything's not great. And I think that's a key thing Again it's direct connection, right? Yenik also saw Noah And all the posterior of Noah which this is post 42 Yenik also know and his family the posterior of all the posterioriative Noah, this is of course 42, Enoch also on Noah and his family, the posterioriative of all the sons of Noah should be saved the

temporal salvation. And where for Enoch saw that Noah built an ark and the Lord smiled upon it. And you got that nice connection there between the floods and the weeping, but the Lord's smiling. And of course, I mean, there may be rainbow connections there. There's this fun stuff with that. But he next convinced, right? At first, when he saw this, he had bids of soul and wept and said, I will refuse to be comforted.

Now, this is, this is really intriguing here because the first thing he says, he says, like, Lord, he says, okay, whatever, you know, how can you cry? God says, how can I not cry? And it says, you're right. I'm not going to stop. I cannot become for did ever But the Lord said at ennick lift up your heart and look and so it's really intriguing here because the Lord very bit says We're gonna cry and it's worth crying about There's no shame in your tears, Enic. There's no shame in my tears It's worth crying, but that's that's not the end of the story here.

And it came to pass that Enic looked in from Noah, all the families, and he said, OK, when's this going to be over? When can we have all of this? Now, I want to read, we'll come back to this, but I want to, one of his questions, because he asked this question to get it again. When is it going to be? When are the righteous to come? When but I want to, one of his questions, because he asked this question again and again, when is it gonna be, when are the righteous is to come?

When are we gonna, you know, will they have compassion? When are we gonna rest? And that's the key I think I wanna talk about this in, in verse 58, we'll come back, we're gonna go ahead for a second, we're gonna come back. And again, Enic Wept and Cryton of the Lord saying, when shall the earth rest?

Okay, what I want to do here for a second is just play a little etymological game here. Okay, Noah and Hebrew was Noah. And Noah means rest. Later on Moses, eight and Genesis is going to understand it in terms of Nechum, Compassion and things like that. But the word Noah, Nuch, Noah, means rest.

And so when Enoch starts asking this question about when will the earth rest? It's a play on Noah, even. And it's like, I did it. Noah's sent there for rest, but it's not there yet. Okay. This is one of those that I just heard and I've got, oh, I thought I have got to ask all of this when he comes on because I don't think it's scriptural. I think it's a Jewish legend or something, which you might know about, but I have heard

that when the waters of the Red Sea swallowed up the Egyptians that the Hebrews on the other side started to sing. And the Lord said, how can you sing when so many of my children are drowning in the sea? And they shorten Bell Hallel's to their Hallel's, their praise to half Hallel's. Does that ring any bells?

Yeah, so that's going, there is, there are traditions about that in some of the rabbinic traditions. Yes. I don't have a source up top of my head. I can find it. Okay, I've loved the story because I want it to be true. Just tell me it's true. I want it to be true. It's not true. It shouldn't be rabbinic, whether it's true or not. I am all in favor of more people reading rabbis. I love the idea that God would, that it was like this. It's seeing these shall suffer the end of verse 37. Exactly. That, yeah, he had to swallow the Egyptians. He didn't enjoy it. And you shouldn't either, you know, you shouldn't be singing over there because I just had to wipe out these Egyptians and the first place I heard that was in a talk from Elder Mary and D. Hanks and I think he just mentions it

as a a legend or a tradition. How can you celebrate when my children are drowning in the sea? So they shorten their songs of praise in half to half hellels or something like that. Now, it's really intriguing in terms of how the Lord wants us to interact with even when things are bad, right? You know, I'm intrigued that we start with this vision with God weeping, and now we've got Enic just weeping as he comes to know the mind of God more

and starts to see the same. I mean, all of this coming after, yeah, we got Zion. Zion will dwell safely forever. Yeah. Good. We're good. Aren't you happy, God? Aren't you happy?

Yeah. And the Lord shows him all this and now he's like, I refuse to be comforted. But again, the beauty of it is the end of it. And again, I love that that Enoch persuaded, but I also love the way the Lord continues to come for him. Right? It continues to say, no, there's a way out. It's okay. You know, what is going to happen for the six? It should be the murdering of times. This place is a really good movie, right? You've got happiness and it turns really dark and then what is going to happen at the end? What is going to be the conclusion?

You know what he says, Inxavidatus on a man he rejoices. But again, this is of course, this is the Christian term, right? The Christian term. The righteous is lifted up and the lamb is slain from the foundation of the world. Again, this is, again, only Christians is excited when somebody dies, right? But you know, as long as Jesus is right, we're like, he's dead now, guys.

Well, I mean, Avram, I see a beauty here in Enoch. I refused to be comforted. The Lord's saying, weep not. I have your answer and who does he see? He sees the Savior. Yeah, I have your answer. Yeah. And again, this is terms of types in Christ.

Of course, this makes Jesus into the great Noah. Right? He's the one who actually say, right, you know, I saw a biging rest they are saved the temporal salvation in 42 But of course Jesus saves with both temporal salvation and eternal salvation and an anic He's gonna go with this right She's the earth crying in 49 and he says can you have compassion on the earth? Please help it

But then in Ignos others works 50 I help it. But then, Enoch knows how this works. 50. I asked the O Lord, in the name of vine, only be gotten even Jesus Christ, if thou have mercy upon knowing his seed, that the earth may never more be covered by the floods. You know, he's got these, these general please have mercy and he's like, I asked you in the name of Jesus, no more floods. 51, the Lord says, yep, that's the covenant we'll make. Do you know what I love about verse 47 if I can go back? Yeah, please do. It's kind of a strange kind of a time, linear time thing.

The Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world. I mean, the Lamb was slain in the murdering of time, but he's talking about the Lam is slain sounding like in the pre-earth life, the pre-mortal existence, and kind of just that idea that was always the plan that the Son of God would come and die. And from the foundation of the world, and I'm thinking of our friend Brad Wilcox that said the Atonement was plan A,

it wasn't plan B because Adam and Eve made a mess of things. It was from the foundation of the world that this was going to happen this way. So what do you do with that? That interesting phrase, the Lambus Lane from the foundation of the world. Am I looking at that right? Yeah, that's what it says because you find the similar language in Revelation, right? Worthy is the Lamb that was slain and there it's before the foundation of the world, even. It says there. And part of it, I think, is one, it's a good way for us to sort of rejigger our notion of what it means to be the Lamb of God. Right? We talk about the Lamb of God somehow, like, Jesus

the Lamb of God because he's fuzzy and cuddly and you know, like, like lambs are soft and sweet and innocent. That's not the imagery that's being used here. The picture here is a lamb with a stroke cut. You know, word of the lamb, that was slain. And so this idea of the Lamb of God, it's sacrificial image. Whether this is what any casino or not in Moses 7, as John sees in Revelation, he sees the dead lamb.

That's the lamb he sees there, you know, and this is Jesus. And I think that it feeds into this is One of the great distinctive things about being a Christian Is our belief that fundamental air rages bound around the fact that our God was willing to die for us And as you point out there that this is the way it's always been. This is the plan. This is the way. This is the goal There's an interesting parallel there you're you're bringing up Revelation chapter 5 where John is weeping Right he's weeping because there's nobody who can who can save the earth? There's nobody and then and then one of the elders says weep not just like just like the Lord said to Enic, weep not.

Look, here's the answer, the lamb is the answer. There's an answer to this. 52 was intriguing because 52 was one of those places that suggests that the flood could have been understood as a local flood rather than a worldwide flood. 52, it's an unautical decree that a remnant of his siege to be found among all the nations where the earth should be blessed, but they should stand.

Okay, if Noah is the progenitor of the entire earth, then a promise that a remnant of his siege is found around the earth is not a meaningful promise because all of the earth is a remnant of his seed. There is evidence in Scripture, the same thing, right? It says in Genesis, the whole earth will be flooded. But of course, the Hebrew there is going to be eras,

and eras means land. And so you could translate it, the whole land will be flooded. I'm not saying that the flood was not worldwide. That's above my pay grade to make that claim. But there are places in scripture, including here in restoration scripture, that are suggestive that it may not have been. Well, it's like the Book of Mormon says the face of the whole earth was changed. Why, how they

knew that? From what we can see on top of this here, pyramid. I mean, I don't know if they really mean the whole earth. 53. The Lord says, again, bless you who this seed Messiah shall come. She said, I am Messiah, the king of Zion, and that's distinctive, but that's really actually fun internally also, because Zion most places in the Old Testament, Zion means Jerusalem, which of course is where the ancient Messiah would be king in. His capital would be at Jerusalem. And so this has nice, broad references for us in Moses 7, but it also could just as easily be talking about any Messiah would be the king of Zion. And so there's kind of fun, that's just that. Who so cometh in at the gate and climbed up by me shall never fall?

Wherefore, blessed are they of whom I have spoken for they shall come forth with songs of everlasting joy. And you got, again, these emotional rollercoaster almost here in this vision in Moses 7. But then Enigats that question, when come at the Son of Man in the flesh? Let's pin this down, When's this going to be?

And then this Noah's imagery, when will the earth rest? Please show me, and what he sees is the crucifixion. Look, and he looked and beheld this 55th Son of Man lifted up on the cross after the manner of men. That's when the earth gets to rest. Except that, and this is where it gets even fun, 56. And here to the loud voice, and the heavensiled, and all the creation of God mourned, and the earth groaned, and the walks were rent, which is why in 58,

the eunuch is like, this is rest. Right, he's earthquakes, the earthquakes are the crucifixions, like this is rest, when will the earth rest? 59, and eunuch be held on the son of man, a son of the father. And he called Lord, saying, will, thou not come again? He sees the Lord before the foundation of the world. This has always been the plan. But he sees the earth

mourn and says, what's going on here? Show me when the Lord comes. And he sees the Lord comes and the Lord is crucified. And there's earthquakes and he says, this is when's the earth gonna rest. What are you coming back? Will you please come again? And this is a key thing, by the way, as we talk about covenants in the Old Testament.

Moses 7 understands the covenant that God makes with Noah, with Abraham, at Mount Sinai, and therefore the gospel covenant as being in continuity with the covenant he makes here with Enic. It's part of this promise he makes to Enic. When will come again? For as much as thou art God, and I know thee, and thou swore unto me and commanded me that you'd ask the name of thine only begotten. That was made me, and give me a right to thy throne, and not of myself." Says, look, there's, you know, this, I didn't do this, you did. I didn't do this, but through thine own grace, wherefore I ask again, for wherfore I ask thee, will thou not come again on the earth?"

And the Lord says, yes. Part of why this chapter is so important for the restoration is this notion of the cause of Zion. But the other reason is because this is fundamentally the purpose of building Zion is to prepare the earth for the coming of Jesus Christ. Right? You've got there an inf-62. Righteous will pram down, truth I was sent from the earth. Righteous and truth will like cause to sweep the earth out of the flood. To gather my intellect from the four quarters of the earth, unto pledge that I shall repair a holy city, that my people may gird up their loins and be looking forth for the time of my coming.

For there it should be my tabernacle and it should be called Zion, a New Jerusalem. And there are two things I love about this. One, of course, this is the restoration here. But two, I love this because Hank already pointed us to previously this idea that Joseph Smith says the cause of Zion is the grand object, right? It's the thing that everybody's looking forward to. And President Nelson has said, the most important thing you can be doing right now

is the gathering of Israel. What 62 reminds us is, these are the same thing. Fundamentally, the work to gather Israel and the work of building Zion are the same thing. And this idea of coming together and being a holy people and building a holy city, I love the way that the Lord frames this. And then for us, as we follow current prophetic counsel to gather Israel, we're also building

Zion. It's all the same thing. It's all God's work. This is what the Church of Jesus Christ is for. But then it's so beautiful. We talk to the New Jerusalem and the Old Zion. And the Lord said to Enoch, then vow and all thy cities shall meet them there. And we shall receive them into our bosom and they shall see us. And we will fall upon their necks. And they shall fall upon our necks and we will kiss each other.

I just love the fact that as we talk about Enoch, we talk about the restoration, it's easy for us sometimes to kind of, I don't get caught up in our dispensational whatever. But I love that Moses 7 says, no, this is one, it's all the same work and two, we're going to know and recognize each other. And it's going to be great, and two, we're gonna know and recognize each other. And it's gonna be great. I love it. Yeah, it's a beautiful. I mean, this is a beautiful chapter of, are you going to come again?

Yes, I will. I'm going to send a restoration, a building of Zion, and then I will be there. A revelation again, which of course is also about this kind of Christ's final victory, where the Lord in Revelation says, and I'm going to wipe away all tears. You know, 64 first, there should be mine a bone, it should be Zion, which will come for that of all the creatures I have made, and for the space of a thousand years, the earth shall rest. There's your promise, Enoch.

There's your rest. And it came to pass the Enic saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man the last days to dwell on the earth and righteousness. I love it because of course it frames this whole planet salvation here, right? You know, he begins back to six, right? Six is all about Adam and the fall and redemption. And then this is all about Jesus Christ and salvation. It's just beautiful stuff. This is all about Jesus Christ and salvation. It's just beautiful stuff. Yeah, it's interesting.

It starts with a city, right? The Enic built and the vision ends with the city. Yes. That we built. Now, we built and these two things are going to come together. It's no mistake we call R. Zion also. They are the same city. So caught up in this and then I'm thinking there's certain phrases here

that I'm just, oh, like Joseph Smith made that up, right? His heart swelled, why does eternity, his bowels yearned, and all eternity shook? Wow! When your bowels yearn, this reflects ancient notions of feelings. It's your kidneys. Where we think with our head and feel with our hearts, the ancients is right, stop with their hearts and they felt with their kidneys. The kidneys were the seed of emotion in ancient Israel. So again, in 3rd Nephavans, Jesus says the same thing. My bowels are pained within me or Jeremiah, he's talking about your feeling in your kidneys. The scripture says, and the thoughts of their hearts were far from me. It's because you think with your hearts.

We didn't know who thought with your brain, there's a reason ancient Egyptians threw it away. Yeah, what's that thing for? The Greek medical text, I was cooling the blood. Maybe it cooled the blood. We actually weren't sure what the brain was for. And have you see vowels yearning or vowels feeling or whatever, that reflects antique notions of emotion and thought

that were offense ancient Israel? Hey, Avram, do you think verse 62, Moses 7 verse 62, righteousness, this is how I'm going to, you know, this is how I'm going to bring the earth to rest. Righteousness, I'll send out of heaven, you could say revelation coming from heaven, truth out of the earth, to bear testimony among the begotten, to me a reference to the book of Mormon, Truth out of the earth, to bear testimony among them, be gotten to me a reference to the Book of Mormon, almost ever in restoration scripture. I mean, obviously, they're riffing on Isaiah who probably is on the Elves in mind here.

But as we read this in the restoration, is Joseph's restoration as the Lord gives revelation to Joseph in the restoration, that's what he means. Truth out of the earth, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right? Rekha's out of heaven is this Moroni, truth of the earth is the book of Mormon. Almost always, this is framed in the same way that almost always in dr. N. Covenant, the marvelous we're going to wonder he's talking about is the book of Mormon. So yeah, that's absolutely

a way to read that because again, this is how we understand, and especially in verse 62, which is all about the work of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. This chapter, Moses 7 reminds me a little bit of Jacob 5, in that we come to a moment of Oh no, it's all awful. What are we going to do? And then this this moment of redemption, right at the very end. Yes. Book of revelations the same way, look how terrible, terrible, terrible. Redemption. And Yes. Book of revelations the same way. Look out terrible, terrible, terrible, redemption. And then you have Moses 7 following that same track.

This kind of literature, this kind of scripture, I mean, because there's lots of reasons for prophecy, there's lots of reasons in scripture for prophecy. But this particular kind of prophecy, like revelation, like this sort of end times, end of the world type stuff, is fundamentally designed to give believers hope. That's the fundamental purpose behind it. And we tend to turn to these kinds of things when things are bad. Because it even puts the bad times in the prophecy, right? Satan had a great chain in his hand. Oh, right now right here, I see this, right? When things are pretty good, there are other scriptures that we focus on. But when things are bad, we say, let's talk about Jesus Christ

coming back and the end of the world. In the church in the 19th century, very much about Zion coming. In the 20th century, when things are pretty good for the church, we spent less time talking about those things. But I think as things have turned bad for us again a little bit, I think we're seeing more of this in our discourse and more of this in our teachings. What a great insight. The only thing is of course the end there, this answers the question, right? What does it mean that Enoch was not and God took him? Well, it means translation, right? It means taking him to heaven. Moses 7 answers that question of what happened? Well, he went up to live with God forever and then he'll come down again when God comes again.

Moses 7 solves the knob and explains what's going on with it. A Joseph Smith took a small space between four verses and stretched out as wide as eternity. This is one of the places where, as I read JST Genesis, in some places, I'm like, okay, Joseph, I see what you're doing there, but I'll see what Genesis is doing there.

I can see, and I'm grateful that both of them, right? One of the things I think is very key when we read JST Genesis is read both of them. Read Genesis and JST Genesis. Don't do just the one, because both of them teach you something. One of the things I love about the Pro-Great Price and I especially love about Moses 7 here. He saw also Moses 1. God delights to teach us.

Inek has these questions. How can you weep? When will the earth rest? And the Lord doesn't say, I don't know. Lord says, let me show you. Let me tell you. Let me teach you. Just myth of the same way. He had this question. He said, where can I find salvation for my sins? Where can I find the church that will show me Jesus? Can you answer those questions? What about this whole Bible thing? What can I do with it? And it continue to respond and reveal.

It's beautiful. We have all of this all together. I just love it. The Bummo is a seven. The part we just read there was so important. Because building Zion, gathering Israel, building Zion, this is the work of the Restoration. It may be that for the saints or the followers of Jehovah in ancient days and the days of Genesis,

they didn't need to know that out of Enic because it was not as useful to them. Obviously, they're concerned with their own things. But for you and I today, this is what we're here for. We're here to build Zion. We're here to prepare the earth for Jesus to come again, so it will rest again. And I'm so grateful for the power that we have from Joseph Smith laying it out at the beginning of the restoration here and says, this is your job.

And now our job is to go out and do it. Wow. The little break between verses and Genesis reminds me of Abinadi where they ask him a question, you know, who is it that publishes peace? And then five chapters later he's like, and that's who publishes peace. Like he takes a small thing and expands it. Joseph Smith took these little tiny verses in Genesis and through another hundred verses

between them. Joseph Smith's a poroffate. And part of why it's so important to have been a guy there is that he's making an argument. The whole thing is a superstructure to his point about, and this is why we're publishing Pete's guys. Everything is 53, everything with all of that, take a man with all of that. He's answering their question. This is really awesome.

You talked about us as a people choosing this, and part of Moses 7 is the Lord saying, they will choose this. They will. I'm not worried. I'm kind of the faith he has in Latter-day Saints that they will do this watch them Enic there God trusts us and That's powerful, but he believes we can build this place He trusts us and sometimes he trusts more than not perhaps I trust us, right? Yeah, I'm a firm believer in three-hour church

So I really struggled of, I think we need more church, not less church, God. But it turns out that God trusts his church more than I do. Avram, Dr. Shannon, you're so great. This has been so much fun. I think our listeners would be interested in your story. A mother who's Jewish who converts to becoming a Latter-day Saint, story, a mother who's Jewish who converts to becoming a Latter-day saint, then you study Judaism as a career, and here you are believing Latter-day Saint. Can you tell us just a little bit of that journey? Sure. First of all, I always knew I wanted to be an academic, right?

I discovered what a PhD was when I was like eight years old, and I said those. I want one of those. I transferred here, and I was looking for language classes and there was a modern Hebrew class, which is the only one that goes around the middle of semester and whatever. So I started with modern Hebrew. Again, I blame my mother who named me off from. She named me Fred. I'd end up in like Chinese studies or something else. She named me off from. So I do Jewish studies. But there's always been a question, as long as I'm a teacher to my wife, did I really want to make my religion, my job, to not have that division?

And honestly, it's Moses 7 and consecration that kind of said, well, yeah. And this is, I think, this is a key thing about academic study description, whatever. What consecration says is, is that everything can be made holy and everything needs to be made, made holy. Even without that, according to Moses, my job, my religion, no matter what I do, if I went into physics, if I went into anything, so I'm gonna get this notion that as we understand, as we work through, as we try it, you know,

this idea that the world's made up of facts. Facts are great, I love facts. I love learning things, I love facts. I love learning things. I love scripture. I love language. It's just the more I learn, the more I realize how little there is I know. But of course, the world met a relationship. And facts and relationships are absolutely meaningless.

And so when I think about what I've learned, what I do, how I do it, how I got here, you know, again, from my first Hebrew class, it'd be why you, from my Hebrew classes and my Jewish studies classes at Oxford, from my work at Ohio State, are there things I learned that I said, huh, that's a little weird. Yeah, yeah, there are. The world's a weird place. Other things I've studied where I say, I don't know what to do with that. Yeah, yeah, there are.

Sometimes it's Latter-day Saints, and I had to go through this. We have so many good answers to so many things. We really struggle when we have to say, I don't know. And for me, the most powerful thing that learning what I've learned, getting a PhD, getting a master's degree, studying all this stuff is man, there's lots. I just don't know.

But this is for me, this is why the cause of Zion is so important. Because fundamentally, it's not about what I know. Zion isn't built by me knowing lots of, he reverbs, I love he reverbs. Zion is not done by knowledge of this scripture, that scripture, this whatever. Zion is built by the Lord's saints working together.

And fundamentally, the reason I do what I do is because I want to build Zion. And so as I think about my journey and things I've learned and things I haven't learned, one is just recognizing that there's so much I haven't learned. One is just recognizing that there's so much I don't know. And sometimes I'll stop to say, huh, I don't know that. But what I do know is that the Lord, one, He loves me. I've never wept alone. I had a lot of costs. This has been a terrible year. I had a lot of reason to cry this year, a lot of reason. And I did. But I found solace and recognition and the fact that I didn't cry alone and that I've never cried alone. I mean, honestly, fundamentally, I'm

part of the gospel, Jesus Christ, because I need Jesus Christ. I can't do this by myself. And anything I've read, the cool stuff, the hard stuff, the great stuff always reminds me that in my own life, like with Enic, when am I going to find rest? The only rest that really comes for me is through Jesus. And I just, I can't, there's nothing else I've got. I just need Jesus. And I just, I can't do nothing else I've got. I just need Jesus. So good. So, so good. We want to thank Dr. Avram Shannon for being with us today. Wow. Avram. That was just fantastic. And thank you to everyone who joined us. Listening. We love you.

Grateful for your support. We have executive producers. We want to thank Shannon and Steve Sornson. We want to thank Shannon and Steve Sorenson. We want to thank our sponsors David and Verla Sorenson. Come join us on our next episode of Follow Him. Hey, we want to remind everybody that you can find us on social media. Come find us on Facebook and Instagram. We would love it if you would subscribe to, rate, and review the podcast. Share it with your friends. That would be awesome. Go to follow him.co, follow him.co for any show notes, transcripts, any references you want.

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