Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Numbers 11-14 ; 20-24 -- Part 1 : Dr. Kerry Muhlestein

Episode Date: May 7, 2022

How does the Lord create a holy people? Dr. Kerry Muhlestein explores the Book of Numbers and the holiness code the Lord develops with his people as the Lord creates his people and leads them to the Promised Land.YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelShow Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers/SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Transcripts/Language Team/French TranscriptsAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith, and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith.

I'm your host. I'm here with my numbered co-host, John, by the way, John, you are numbered today. I stood on the scale, I guess that's what that means. Yeah, that's what it was. I was found on my team. I numbered my co-host, yeah. I numbered my co-host and I found one.

Just this one. You are number one. You're number one in my book. John, we are going to be into the book of numbers today and we have our first returning guest. I'm sure everyone's excited for you to introduce him. Who's with us? Yes, we've got Carrie Mielstein back and when I think of Dr. Mielstein, I think of the

word Egyptologist, but let me just review. He has a bachelor's from BYU in psychology and a Hebrew minor. As an undergraduate, he spent time at the BYU Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies in the intensive Hebrew program. He has a master's in ancient near Eastern studies from BYU and a PhD from UCLA in Egyptology. Where in his final year he was named the UCLA affiliate graduate student of the year. He's taught courses in Hebrew and religion at BYU and the UVSC, now known as Utah Valley University Extension Center, as well as history at Cal Poly, Panama and UCLA. What I just love is he goes to Egypt, he is an Egyptologist, and he's delightful. And we're just really glad to have him back. Thanks for joining us again,

Kerry. It's good to be back. Thank you for having me back. It makes me question your judgment, but I'm happy to be here. Yes, we love having Kerry. He's our own personal Indiana Jones, right? Yes, exactly. And there's a striking resemblance to it. It's uncale. Oh, yeah. You know, you can't lie on this without people knowing it. I just see that. Oh, only a portion of our guests are on YouTube.

So they won't let them picture whoever that. And that case, I look exactly like you before. That's exactly right. Kerry, we've been trying to do what you told us back in your the very first episode of the year. So for those of you who are just joining us maybe in the middle of our Old Testament studies, go back and listen to Episode One.

Dr. Mulestein walked us through how to study the Old Testament and then we jumped into the book of Moses and we looked at the book of Abraham and really had an incredible and incredible time. So we encourage anyone who hasn't listened to episode one, please go back and listen to episode one because we're going to try to to pick up. Let's try to bridge those two.

If you guys don't mind, I want to start by bridging from where we started back with Moses chapter one. And let's just do a quick review to the book of numbers, John, and we'll have Carrie comment on how we've done on what we've learned so far. So it's kind of like having the principal come. Yeah, or the peanut gallery. I'll do the peanut gallery. The peanut gallery. So you guys walk, walk with me here.

If I was going to catch someone up along the way, we started in the book of Moses in the book of Genesis talking about Adam and Eve. And we talked about the fall of man and all the kind of the wonderful yet disastrous things that came with it. Then we talked about Cain and Abel. One of our guests, I love the way she said it. If she said fall of man and redemption, the fall of a family and then redemption, and then it's the fall Fall of Man and redemption, the Fall of a family and then redemption, and then it's the Fall of a people and redemption. I just remembered that idea. This Fall thing keeps happening, but there's a redemption that follows, thankfully. As we walked through the book of Genesis, I think I realized more than ever that this is Israel's family history, and the writer of these books wants Israel

to know where they come from, who they are, and where they come from. Kerry, have we done well so far? Yeah, and maybe I'll just add to that, so if we say, and I, like, 733% agree that this is Israel's family history, but I want us to remember then that that means it's our family history.

And we read our history about great, great, great, great grandma, Mildred, and about great, great, great, great grandma, Sarah. One thing, John, if you remember, we noticed that our family history has some interesting messy human stories in it. The book of Genesis, we saw marriage problems, family problems, problems with children,

problems with half brothers and you know, who hasn't sold a brother, right? Who hasn't at least thought about it, I guess. At the end of Genesis, we ended up with the family of Israel in Egypt and Kerry, that's your homeland. So we ended up with the entire family in Egypt and then hundreds of years go by and they're a nation enslaved. I'll point out for doing family history for anyone who's descended from Joseph, then it is our homeland. We have some ancestry that goes back to he the opus where the airport is. So it's always welcome home when you get back to Egypt. Yeah, you land in and you can, I think it was Dr. Chadwick, John, who said, do you know who my great grandfather is? This is, come on, this is, he was the prime minister of Egypt.

That's right, the log here. And on the other side, he was the high priest of on, right? So yeah. So hundreds of years go by and Israel is now enslaved. They want out of bondage. They want out of slavery. And so the Lord raises up a deliver, Moses, from their own midst, leaves Egypt,

and then returns to Egypt to redeem them. We talked about the plagues of Egypt. We talked about the Passover, John just mentioned the Passover. We talked about the Passover. We left Egypt, we come across the Red Sea. We talked with Dr. Skinner and Dr. Bowen about the plagues and the parting of the Red Sea and one thing I loved there that I'd seen a little bit before but I saw now more than ever was a parallel to the Atonement of Jesus Christ in the parting of the Red Sea. The Promised Land, the celestial kingdoms on the other side of this great Gulf, and God prepares a way across. That to me was a wonderful insight. Anything there, John or Kerry? Absolutely. You agree with that. I think there's a number of symbols that are part of that. I also see creation in there because creation has all this watery chaos and then you get dry land

coming out of it. This is the creation of Israel as a nation and at the same time symbolic of going through the veil into the promised land. So they're reborn as it were or recreated, which is something that has to happen for all of us. One thing I want to hit that I thought was spectacular. I've thought about it ever since. It was with Dr. Skinner, if you remember, John.

The Lord took down the Egyptian theology, right? Each God, one by one. And the first thing he teaches them on that 10th plague, now that Egyptian theology has been dismantled, let's now construct Israelite theology. And the very first thing they're going to learn about is being saved by the blood of the Lamb. Then they're going to take the leaven out of their house. Then they're going to part the Red Sea, cross the Red Sea, and be led by a pillar of fire. I remember telling my students at BYU this, and I said, do you see anything there? And they immediately saw faith in the blood of the lamb, right? Repentance in the leaven. Third is baptism coming through the water and fourth being led by a pillar of fire being led by the Holy Ghost. So we had the first

principles in order. This is the gospel. I'm John. I know you love that part. I love first principles because if they're first principles, then they're probably first principles. And I think we talked about to go away back to doctrine and covenants, we talked about Dr. Richard Bennett and his article in the unsign about how Joseph Smith didn't just, let me see, let me pick some principles out of the air, but he experienced them faith in Christ, the first vision in losing the manuscript repentance,

going through sore repentance, and then going back to translation and importance of baptism in that covenant, and then the Melchizedek priest of being restored in the Holy Ghost and their first principles that are evident in the whole story and here they are in the Old Testament story as well. Beautiful. I love that. So now we've come out of Egypt and if I remember right, we've done a lot of murmuring.

Which is interesting that we have these incredible spiritual miracles happen in life and then we murmur. It's a human thing to do. It's consistent then. Yeah. Yeah. Carry our last few episodes. We've been talking about the sacred tabernacle that God says, okay, now that you've left Egypt and did they go straight to Sinai? Is that and that's that was their goal as they were leaving. Like we're going to? Is that and that's that was their goal as they were leaving like we're going to go worship God and that's where they're going to worship God and establish a covenant. So Sinai was the first immediate goal and they get there. Oh it was with Dr. Bellnap if I remember they're they've given they're given three days to prepare to see the

face of God and it kind of falls apart on them. And so God gives a series of laws, commandments, including the 10 commandments, to make them holy. Then with Dr. Matt Gray, we've set up this tabernacle right in the middle of the camp, this sacred space for Israel to learn to become like God. And I think God is saying, I wanna make you a holy people. I wanna make you absolutely different. And this tabernacle is going to teach you

how to become holy. Cause I can't make you holy, cause that's not holiness. It has to be chosen. Am I hearing that right? Is that why maybe the major purpose of the tabernacle? I'd say just in general, you have to choose to be holy, but then you're not gonna be able to do it on your own.

So God's gonna have to change them, but he can't change them without them making the choice. And that's where covenants come in, right? So that the covenants are you making the choice and allowing God to change you? And I think there's an important element here that the focus at Mount Sinai, Mount Sinai serves as a temple. And they're supposed to all see God,

instead only some of them see God, and we'll come back to that later, but the ideas they have to become truly holy in order to see God. And now they're going to leave Mount Sinai, so they need something else that can help them continue to become holy and continue to approach God. The point of holiness is to be able to become Godly so you can be with God and be like God. And so, if they're not going to be at Mount Sinai, where that initially happens for them, if they're not going to have that temple, they need something else that will continue to do that for them. So, it's not a coincidence that it's at Sinai,

where God tells them, and it's a huge focus of what God tells them at Sinai. Here's what you need to do as you're leaving here in order to continue your approach to me. I think it's significant to sign eye as a mountain and we get this this symbol of the mountain of the Lord type of a thing and then Jesus will come along and it will be the mount of be attitudes and and so forth. And then when Jesus appears to the Nephites, he is at the at the temple. And so there's this mountain temple. I show my students three mountains,

you know, the pre-Mortal Christ at Sinai, and then the mortal Christ at the Mount of Beatitudes, and then the resurrected Christ to the righteous among the Nephites and Lamanites there in the Book of Mormon, which is kind of interesting that they're all mountains or temples. And there's some important symbolism there because the same thing with altars or stepples or anything else is the thing that connects heaven which is up above and we're down on the earthly plane and we need something that will connect us. Now it's Christ that connects us, it's the ordinances and covenants of the gospel that connect us, but symbolically it's the mountain, it's the temple with the steeple on it, it's

an altar. Those are all symbolic ways of saying we need something to connect us to God because we're disconnected without that help. They're getting used to the idea of God being with them. God's presence is right there and behave as if God is right there in his presence is there. He's close by. He's there in that tabernacle. That's symbolically what that means, right? This is the House of God. This is a place where he can come and dwell. Carrie, Dr. Mulestein, we now hit the Book of Numbers. We only have one day on this. So let's do a general overview and then maybe focus in on a couple of chapters and we'll turn it over to you. Now we're going

to move from Sinai to the Promised Land and I don't think things are going to go great. Based on the recent past. Yeah. We're going to struggle a little bit, right? In the book of numbers on this. We're going to move from Sinai to Moab just outside the Promised Land. And you would think, hey, we've got this tabernacle now.

Things are going to go great. But it turns out out I think we're going to have a lot more murmuring and a lot of problems in our nation, in our family. Yeah, it's a rough family road trip. Yeah, it's that's how we would say is the book of numbers is a big long family road trip. Let's let's turn it over to you. What do you want to say about numbers? Well, so numbers begins kind of where Exodus and Leviticus break off. I believe Dr. Bellnaff even said this when he was with you

that when you get to Mount Sinai, it's been a travel log up to that point. They were leaving Egypt and they went here and they went here and they went here and then we get to Sinai. And they're at Sinai for a long time, about a year that's an incredibly important time for them, but you get this long break in the travel log

that goes from Exodus 19 to Numbers 11. And so everything in between there is there a covenant experience with God, the laws that God gives them to speak to, part of what you were talking about, Hank, the instructions right after the 10 commandments and so on, the instructions they're given, the laws about how to behave

is typically called the holiness code. It's instructions how to be holy, how to act that's different than the way everyone else acts, so that's more godly, and this is help you going to choose to be holy, as you're saying. So you get all of that, the instructions of how to build the tabernacle and so on. So the first part, the first 10 chapters of numbers is the same thing. It gets its name because at the very beginning, Moses numbers the people. They want to know how many people do we have here. This is a big group here and we've been growing. I'm sure while we've been at Mount Sinai and so he numbers the people. But then you get

information about how it's some purity laws, how the priests are to behave, what the priests are going to do. So it's a little bit more about the rituals and the ordinances of the tabernac and how to make everything work if you're going to be a holy people. So that's what you get there in the first part of numbers. And then in chapter 11, you're going to get back to the travel log. They're going to start to move again. And this tells the story of, let's say, Exodus, maybe 12 to 19, is the travel log getting from Egypt to Sinai.

Numbers 11 to the end of numbers is the travelogue getting from Sinai to the promised land. Okay, and it's a family road trip. When I go on a family road trip, I usually put on a John by the way talk. Doesn't sound like they had a John by the way talk to listen with their kids. That's because you want them to sleep.

That's exactly what I just said. Everyone falls asleep. Audio melatonin or something. They think John's funny. They dad, you're not funny. Let's listen to John. Now I have been told by one of my children, Hank, that had you for a class. They're like, unlike dad, Hank Smith actually

is funny. So he doesn't just think he's funny. He actually is funny. Well, I need to, I'm going to play this for my kids. That's right. Good. And this may sound like I'm a significant, but the two people that I can get my kids to listen to on a family trip is John, by the way, in Hank Smith. Those are the two that my kids request, so. They never request me, by the way. As long as you have a cassette player in your car, cause I'm getting a little old. So you know what's funny about this is back in,

I think it was 2007, my wife said, hey, my sister and brother-in-law are going to Mount Rushmore, let's go with them. And so we rented a motor home. This was way outside of my comfort zone. This is true story. We got less than a half a mile away. And one of my kids said, how long is this going to take? We were seriously half a mile away. And so when you say family road trip, I'm like, yeah, this is the are we there yet story of the house of Israel, right?

I've heard about this promised land, are we there yet? And is this all we brought to eat? And it's a it's a perfect way to put it. Yep, the wheels came off the the septic tank on the motorhome broke down and made a mess and everything else. That's the story. They're taking the tabknuckle with them, right? Carry their just pack it up and they're gonna take it with them. Oh, but I shouldn't laugh so much at this But man this idea of a family road trip just makes me laugh because we've all we've all been there going oh my word Sit down be quiet just look at the window I'm up here doing all the work driving this thing you guys are back there complaining We ran out of barbecue chips, you know I'm up here doing all the work driving this thing. You guys are back there complaining.

We ran out of barbecue chips, you know. That's exactly what it is for Moses. It's like, I'm trying to drive this bus because you see a little bit of that. So to speak to your comment about the tabernacle, that's actually how numbers chapter 10 ends. And this is what signals were back to the travel log, but it's a key difference now because they do have the tabernacle. That's actually how numbers chapter 10 ends, and this is what signals were back to the travelogue, but it's a key difference now because they do have the tabernacle.

So if we go to chapter 10 verse 33, and they departed from the mount of the Lord three days journey, and the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord went before them in the three days journey to search out a resting place for them. So the Ark of the Covenant, they didn't have that before. That's something that's been created, that's part of the tabernacle, and it's at the lead. And I think that's key because it symbolizes God's presence, it symbolizes the covenant, and the lid of the Ark of the Covenant is the mercy cedar, the seed of atonement. So we've got God covenant and atonement leading the way, which should lead the way in everything we do. That's key. My kids think an ark is a boat, but what is an ark here? So I think that the Israelites, God gives them something to build that they're capable of building. So they've just come from Egypt and they have some artisans that were trained in Egypt. In Egypt,

the primary mode of travel is boat. The chariot and wheels, they're not such a big deal in Egypt, they don't get invented there because they don't really need them because they travel mostly on boat. When they're going to have a structure on which one of their deities or one of their gods will travel, they create a boat. And you find the pictures of them all over the place, they have these big golden boats with staves coming or rods coming out of them that they carry that have the statue of the deity will be placed on that boat. So what does God have the Israelites do?

He has them build an ark, and I don't know that it looks like a boat, in this case, that the directions he gives them doesn't really look like a boat, but I think that that's going to be what's in their mind, and it's probably artisans who have built this for the Egyptians who are building this. They know how to do this, and so they're going to have these rods coming out and carry it along. And so it is kind of like a boat on which the presence of God can travel. It's a vessel. I'm so glad I asked. That's a great explanation. So it's a way to carry that. And you said the mercy seat, that's there. We're all thinking Indiana Jones when we think Ark of the Covenant. Yeah, don't look inside there. We're all thinking Indiana Jones when we think Ark of the Covenant. Yeah, don't look inside there. Yeah, and don't look in there. Your eyes were

melt. Yeah. I love this, Carrie. Number's 1033, the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord went before them. Yeah, well, verse 34, and the cloud of the Lord was upon them by day when they went out of the camp, and you highlighted so perfectly and beautifully that the point of the tabernacle is this is the place where they can meet God. And in fact, sometimes it's called the tent of meeting because that's where you can go to meet God. And I hope we think of our temples that way,

but I hope we also create our homes as a temple to think of it that way, but this is the place where you can meet God and be with him. But the presence of God is symbolized by a cloud at day and a fire by night, which is so fantastic because not only does it symbolize the presence of God is symbolized by a cloud at day and a fire by night, which is so fantastic because it not only does it symbolize the presence of God, but God's taking care of them while he does this, right? They're in a desert,

and it's incredibly hot by day, and it's cold at night. And so he's a cloud to protect them from the sun by day, and he's the fire to warm them up and give them the light they need at night. So he is what they need them to be as he is designating that his presence is there. So it must have been daytime when they leave. The cloud goes upon them. So it symbolically, it's clear. I'm with you. It's time to go, the cloud moves. And this is how they know when it's time to go, that the cloud or the

fire leaves. They're like, oh, God is still in this time to go. We need to follow God so that we can be with them. So God is with them, but they have an obligation when God's ready for them to move to follow God. And there's just fantastic symbolism in there. I want to go back to what Kerry was saying. And just because I think hopefully some of our listeners are going, hey, this isn't him somewhere, Redeemer of Israel, Shadow by day and a pillor by night. So that's that imagery. And I think that in our correct me if I'm wrong our Western culture, we might say a perfect day is not a cloud in the sky. But what if you live in Egypt? And so isn't a cloud a comfort? It's some shade.

I was just in Egypt last week and we had several 110 degree days and the game you play is find the shade. We're going to work on the side of the pyramid that has some shade today. Whatever time of day it is, we're going to be over in that shade. I've heard this. I've never been able to verify it, but the original Provo Temple design with a steeple that was made out of copper at first or had the appearance of copper and the round-ish part, kind of a square with rounded edges part, was the cloud, the shadow by day, and the steeple was the pillar by night in that original design. And it looks like it. And now they're going to redo the whole thing, but they since made the steeple more white,

but at one time it was orange, if you look up the old pictures, and I've heard that that was the the shadow by day, the pillar by night. Have you guys heard that? I have heard that. I can't verify it either, but if you look at it, that's makes sense. I always thought why? Did they make it look that way? And then when I heard that, it's like, Oh, now I like how it looks. Yeah. So just in time for change it. That's exactly right. Yeah. Now they're going to change it, but that was kind of a cool thought. This was important. This was how they knew God was there. There was a shadow by day, a pillar by night, and now go back to what you were saying,

Kerry, that when it left, they followed it. God is going to keep us moving towards the promised land, or Him, and the celestial kingdom. He's not going to let us stay anywhere for forever, right? Now, I want to try and make this real. That's something that's really important to me is to try and make the scriptures real and picture it. So think of these guys. They came out of Egypt and they've been at Mount Sinai

and they've been there for a year. So I've had a couple places where I lived there for one year or a couple times. I've lived in a place for one year, but one year is long enough for you to really settle in and get used to life there and what it's like. And then to be told, okay, you figured out how to live here, you know how to eat, you've got water coming,

pack up and take off into this most miserable of wildernesses that really is in hospital. I mean, it's really not a nice place to try and live. It's beautiful in its harshness, but it's harsh. And that's going to be tough. But that's what God is going to do for us. He's not going to let us stay in our comfort zone. He's going to get us right when we're comfortable and we're good there. He's going to say, it's time to take the next step towards becoming godly. You've got to follow me as I lead you through something that's going to be tough But it's going to get you closer to me or the celestial kingdom or however you want to phrase that and that's one of the things

I hope that we'll think of it and we'll come back to this a number of times I think today the whole Exodus story and by that I don't just mean getting out of Egypt But the story from Egypt going into the Promised Land is what we could call an archetypal journey. It is a journey that is symbolic of the journey that we go on to return to be in God's presence. But as we do this, we want to keep looking for elements of what they're going through

and how it applies to our life, right? And in those journeys, they're all over in the scriptures, the Nephites, the Gerardites, I mean, they're all over the place. But the Exodus is probably the great granddaddy of all of them. And as partially because we have more details about it in here. And don't take me wrong, I'm not saying it's symbolic as in this journey didn't really happen. I think this is real. I think this really happened. But it happened in a way that's intentionally designed to teach us symbolically about our journey. And

they usually start with the idea that you're turning your back on wickedness, you're turning your back on bondage, you're turning your back on the world. So whether that's leaving Jerusalem, leaving the Tower of Babel, leaving Egypt, and you have a covenant making experience in some ways, you could say this is baptism or something like that. And then you get a wilderness that they have to go through,

which usually ends up being symbolic of our mortal probation and the different phases of mortal probation. So I hope we'll look at this story with that kind of overarching view in mind. That's really great, Harry. This idea of Obabalon, Obabalon, we bid thee farewell. I'm going to the mountains of Ephraim to dwell in this journey of turning my back on perhaps like the great divorce with C.S. Lewis. I'm turning my back on sin and I'm divorce with CS Lewis. I'm turning my back on

sin and I'm heading towards God, but this is not going to be an easy journey. So often we think, oh, turning your back on sin and heading towards God is going to be, you're going to travel across Hawaii by hammock when really this is this is the wilderness this harsh wilderness is going to create a holiness in you So we can watch them do this. I love that in the book of Mormon Nephi uses this Moses deliverance story to talk about their own story and then I love that in our day We have our great great-grandpas and grandmas crossing the plains and and kind of another journey story out of Navu. And I showed my kids the other week, we were watching the church movie Legacy

and how there was this idea of, yay, Zion were going to Zion, but it just was really hard. There was always this ideal of someday we're gonna get there, but the wilderness part was a hard part for them. And that's happening here. I think you're right,

that's another archetypal I think you're right. That's another archetypal journey and they had Wyoming to go through, right? Yeah, Nebraska. I mean, it really is kind of harsh territory where you might in the middle of the summer get a snowstorm that kills a bunch of people. It's like what you're saying that it's not intended to be easy. The RV is going to break down as it were and this is going to be a tough trip. Let's just be clear. A fallen world is a tough trip. Having fallen natures and dealing with fallen people,

that's a tough trip. And that's by design because the question is, are we going to follow God through that? And I have to think, as you're talking about the great divorce and so on, it makes me think of the things President Nelson has been telling us lately. I mean, just think of him saying, let God prevail in your life, spend less time having the world influence you, and more time having Christ influence you, and less develop some momentum as we do that, right? They're doing those things, letting God prevail, and getting rid of the world a bit each day,

and more time for Christ will create the momentum. I could picture Moses telling the Israelites the same thing. And if they had fully listened, then this journey would have had still would have been tough, but it would have had a few less bumps. There may not have been these fiery serpents that we get to later, right? So it still would have been a hard, hard place, but with a few less bumps. I remember in your very first interview, Carrie, you said the Old Testament gives it to you the truth.

It doesn't, it tells you said the Old Testament gives it to you the truth. It tells you kind of the human side of this. And it seems that this could be a very comforting book for us in that we're trying to make this same journey, leaving the world, going to the Promised Land, and the people struggle. A long way, there's times they want to go back to Egypt, there's times they complain, there's a little bit of comfort in that as we watch this journey, there's a human side to it that even though you complain and murmur and sometimes want to go back to Egypt, the Lord's not going to give up on you,

he'll give you the lessons you need to have. The Promised Land is ready for you, but you need to be ready for it. Oh, that's well said. Oh, and that, Hank, that's great. That reminds me of it was one thing for Moses to get the children of Israel out of Egypt, and then he needed to get the Egypt out of the children of Israel. And I think we sometimes underestimate that.

There are little hints of it in the Bible, but it's maybe not as clear as it could be. They've been in Egypt where idolatry is, I mean, this is its apex, right? Hundreds of gods. Yeah, well, it's the norm everywhere except for with Abraham's family. But if you want to talk about hundreds of gods and huge depictions of them on large scale, then that's Egypt. I am convinced that the Israelites took of that.

And part of the reason I'm convinced of that is because Joshua will eventually say, well, if you want to serve the gods, you are serving on the other side of the reason I'm convinced of that is because Joshua will eventually say, well, if you want to serve the gods You are serving on the other side of the flood, right? And he seems to be talking about the Nile and its flooding and so on If you want to serve the gods you are serving there fine, but me and my house were not doing that and so you get these little bits of evidence that they leave Egypt with Idolatry and they're gonna struggle with that For hundreds of years. It's not that easy to get the Egypt or the world out of them. And I think that's exactly what President Nelson was talking about

when he's saying, if you get all your information from social and other media and not from God, you're going to have a problem. You need to stop listening to that so much and listen to Christ some more. Leave Egypt. I think we heard that with Elder Bednar too, about we will heed not.

There's a lot of heating going on of social media and he's saying I think what present in elson if most the information you get comes from social media your ability to feel the spirit will be diminished. Yeah, and you'll be deceived and it reminds me of Elder Maxwell who said you know often we leave Babylon but we keep a summer cottage. And I think I think that's true of all of us and we're going to see it's true of the ancient Israelites. Yeah. And poor Moses, as I read through today's chapters and numbers, I just feel, I feel for Moses. I would have present Nelson.

I bet he does. I wonder if he's Lord. Oh, these people, these people. John, I loved how you said about your road trip. You went a whole half mile. That looks at like numbers, chapter 11, verse one. They hit the road in chapter 10. The very first thing that happens in 11, one, the people complained.

Yeah, maybe Moses wanted to go back to be Prince of Egypt again. All right, Kerry, what do you want to do here? How many, what stories do you want to hit in the book of numbers? Well, let's touch just a little bit on 11 and 12. There are some really key stories that we need to do there, but 13 and 14 are going to be our big focus at least for the first while if that's all right. So 11, they start out, as we said, it's tough to suddenly move and they're in a place where it's hard to get food.

They've got mana, and we get this little kind of recap of what mana is right. These teeny little like a BB sized things that it's almost like honey flavored couscous or something like that. But they're getting pretty tired of it. It doesn't matter how good a meal is if it's the only thing you've eaten for a year, you'll get pretty tired of it. So I can understand that. And they remember, I love this verse, we're in chapter 11, verse 5,

we remember the fish, which we did eaten Egypt freely, the cucumbers and the melons and the leaks and the onions and the garlic. So I have to tell you, like I said, I just came back from Egypt and the produce there is fantastic. And the fish is fantastic. And I think their strawberries are taste year than ours, their cucumbers and tomatoes are better than ours. I work in the fire and that's where most of the cucumbers and tomatoes come from. And in fact, every day we'd see huge trucks of garlic. It was garlic season, so huge trucks of garlic coming.

And it's just good. So there's a part of me that's saying, you know what, kind of identified, I remember the fish and the cucumbers and the leeks that were there, right? That's what Egypt had plenty of, was food, and a huge variety, and now they're eating manate every single day. So they want something different, and there's

an interesting principle here because God is going to give them what they ask for, and that's going to happen a couple of times in this storyline. Alma tells us to be just a little bit careful what you ask for because God might give it to you. And they want something different. So God says, I'm going to give you meat until you are sick to death. And He says, it's coming out of your nostrils. And it's quail. So here's an interesting one of those little bits of reality. Quail migrate. Now, probably you don't think of quail as flying because mostly they don't fly. They can fly, but they don't fly very long very well. And so what happens when they migrate is that they fly until they're exhausted and then they have to stop and they're not going to fly anymore and they're just going to be kind of dead on the ground for a while. And that's exactly

what happens here. And there's a wind that blows them and they're not birds that can fight against the wind very well. So it tells us that the win comes, and it blows, and so I can picture all these quail that are on their migratory path and the win comes, and they've been fighting, and it blows them all to one place, all of the different migratory groups get blown to one place, and they are just done, and they fall to the ground, and it's right

where the Israelites are, and they can't run, or anything else, they're exhausted, and the Israelites can go, and pick up all the quail they want. And they do until there is sick of quail as they were of mana. Right? And they're like, oh dang, give us that mana again, I'm tired of this quail. So they kind of get what they want. If we're going to talk about this archetypal journey, and if this is symbolic of our journey to be with God again, then I think what we need to do is identify what are the common problems that Israel has.

And if our Israelite ancestors had these problems, it's likely the same problems we're having on our mortal journey. So one of the problems we're gonna see consistently is that when God asked them to do something that isn't easy or doesn't go perfectly, they're pretty unhappy. This whole murmuring when things don't go just right is a really common trend for ancient Israel

in this archetypal journey. That hits a little close to home. Gary. Yes. I love that the first paragraph in the church has come follow me manual says, even on foot it wouldn't normally take 40 years to travel from the wilderness of Sinai to the Promised

Land in Canaan, but that's how long the children of Israel needed not to cover the geographical distance, but to cover the spiritual distance, the distance between who they were and who the Lord needed them to become as his covenant people. I love that line because that's again, you got to get the people out of Egypt now, you got to get the Egypt as this covenant people. I love that line, because that's, again, you gotta get the people out of Egypt now, you gotta get the Egypt out of the people. Kerry, I noticed when you talked about them remembering Egypt, there's no mention of being slaves.

We remember the fish and the melons, the leeks, the onions, the garlic, but they failed to mention the bondage they were in. Yeah, the Taskmaster's whips, they didn't bring that part up. Right, so I think one of our guests called that misremembering. We misremember what Babylon was like, what Egypt was like. It wasn't as fun or as it's an interesting word they used in chapter 11 verse 4.

They fell into lusting. If this is our journey, I miss my sins a little bit. I want to return to my sins. And you're right. We kind of selectively remember. So we remember the sins. We forget the emptiness and the pain, the emotional spiritual pain that was part of that. We forget that part. And we remember the other part. Until you get back in and then you're like, oh man, this is really lousy. What did I do this for, right? The people are complaining. What's Moses' reaction?

The great thing about the Old Testament is you get to see everyone as they are. And you see Moses, he gets tired of this. I mean, I see Moses is the dad who's had enough every now and then in these stories, right? Like, that's it. Don't make me turn this car around. You want me to take you back to Egypt?

I'll take you back to Egypt, right? Don't make me come back there around. You want me to take you back to Egypt? I'll take you back to Egypt, right? Don't make me come back there. That's kind of what happens, but the Lord says, okay, don't worry, I'll take care of it. I'll just feed them till they're sick of it. But we get this, I think it's important, especially if we're gonna keep going with this theme of what is a challenge for them

in their mortal probation or on their journey in the wilderness starts with verse 16, where Moses is to gather 70 men of the elders of Israel. So this is where the idea of a 70 comes from. It starts here, I mean maybe it started with Adam, I don't know, this is the first place we have a record of it, where he's going to get 70 people. This seems to be a little bit of a follow-up on the Exodus 18, right? So remember that was the last chapter before the Sinai interlude. This is the first chapter after the Sinai interlude. So he chose captains of 10s and 50s and so on to oversee what you might think of as their judicial things. Now he seems to be delegating some spiritual matters. And he's going to do this with 70 different people. We look at verse 17,

I will come down and talk with thee there, and I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and we'll put it upon them, and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone. So the spirit of prophecy, the ability to commune with God is going to rest not just on Moses, but on a number of other people in the house of Israel. And that happens, but there are a couple of them, those 70 who don't come. So if we go to verse 24, and Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord

and gathered the 70 men of the elders and of the people and set them around about the tabernacle, and the Lord came down into cloud and spaken to them. And took of the spirit that was upon him and gave it to the 70 elders, and it came to pass that when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied and did not cease. But the remained two of the men in the camp of the name of one was L. Dad and the name of the other was me dad and the spirit rested upon

them. So they weren't even there but still they'd been chosen. So the spirit rests upon them. They were of them that were written but went not out into the tabernacle. And a young man runs to Moses and he says, whoa, hey, there are people that are prophesying. So he seems to think, Moses, that's your job. What should we do about these other guys that are doing it? And we get this profound, profound answer in verse 29. And Moses said unto him, M.V.S. thou for my sake,

would God that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them. And this is President Nelson Tilling as you better have the spirit with you if you're going to survive in the last days, right? We all need to commune with God. Everybody needs to commune with God. And that's going to start to happen

and it has to happen for us. But that is going to end up setting up this interesting kind of tension that we'll see worked out here. And we saw this in the early days of the church as well. I think as God is establishing a covenant people, which he's just done here, which he's doing in the early days of the church, you get this tension between, okay, I want everyone to commune with God,

but there's one who will represent me to the church as a whole. And it takes a little while to work that out, both for ancient Israel and in the early days of the church and we've got the higher-impaagedone and all of our Caldary and others who are feeling like, hey, I'm the same place as Joseph and God's going to be cleared not quite. Kerry, I love this. Numbers 11, 29, Moses saying, would God that all the Lord's people were prophets? There's a talk from Elder Dalin H. Oaks, October 2010, where he talks about that all of us have two lines of communication with God.

We have our priesthood line through the church and we have our own personal line to God. And he said, quote, we must use both the personal line and the priesthood line in proper balance to achieve the growth that is the purpose of this mortal life. If personal religious practices relies too much on the personal line, individualism erases the importance of divine authority. If personal religious practice relies too much on the priesthood line, individual growth

suffers. The children of God need both lines to achieve their eternal destiny. The restored gospel teaches both and the restored church provides both. I feel like that's a great connection. Yeah, explains things so well, doesn't he? So when Moses says, would God that all the Lord's people were prophets? Now Moses is still going to be their leader, perhaps, could we say with keys, but the rest of them are going to need to learn to hear him as President Nelson might say. That's very well said. And that tension is going to come up immediately. It's not a coincidence that chapter 12 follows chapter 11 by that. I don't mean just the numbers,

but I mean the way the story happens, right? The next thing that happens is in chapter 12, Merium and Aaron come to Moses, let's just read verse two and three. And they said, had the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses, have he not spoken also by us, and the Lord heard it, right? So they're saying, wait, Moses, we get revelation. Why do we all need to look to you?

Now, they want to make sure that we understand This isn't because Moses there's something wrong with Moses So they throw in verse three now the man Moses was very meek above all the men which were upon the face of the earth Moses is incredibly meek as the the mouthpiece of the Lord It's not because he is Lording himself over them I think it's because of this tension, like, hey, yeah, actually we do receive revelation. And since we receive revelation,

we ought to be able to act on that. And individually they should, but they don't receive it for the whole church. Again, same problem that Oliver Cowdery and Hyderon Page and others had. And so God's going to teach them something here. If we look here, we get verse six. And he said, here now, my words,

if there be a prophet among you I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision and will speak unto him in a dream My servant Moses is not so who is faithful in all my house with him Will I speak mouth to mouth even apparently and not in dark speeches now? Let's parse that out a little bit because we use the word profit differently than it's used in the rest of scripture. In most of scripture, when it's this profit, it means someone who's inspired by God. In our day, we've come to use profit

to mean the presiding high priest. And I'm not saying we do it wrong. This is a fine way to use it. I mean, you just used the word to mean what you want it to mean. So when we hear the word profit, we think President Nelson, the presiding high priest who has the authority to speak for God to everybody. But that's not how it's used here. What he's saying here is, is there someone who's inspired, then all,

inspire him in all sorts of different ways. But with the presiding person, I'm going to go really directly. He's not going to be confused trying to figure out, it's one of the great challenges we have as members of the church. It's like, okay, was that inspiration or not? And if it was inspiration, exactly what does that mean? God wants us to work through that. That's part of this mortal probation is working at our communication with God. But when it comes to an all-use prophet the way we use it, his prophet, the presiding high priest.

He's going to make sure he knows, right? There's not going to be, oh, does this mean this or not? He's going to know. That's what he's teaching them here when he talks to Moses and Miriam and Aaron. It's a great distinction. It's kind of like when we say prophet, we kind of mean president of the church prophets, the way we use it now, right? But everybody can have the spirit of prophecy by the book of Revelation definition the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy and if you have a testimony of Christ

Where did you get it? It must have been by revelation. Yeah, and we get that that spirit of revelation or spirit of prophecy in the early doctrine of covenants as well, and it's just the kind of inspiration we're all familiar with. So, Kerry, is this Miriam and Aaron trying to figure out their personal revelation versus what's Moses' role in their life? I think it is a bit, and it's them just like so many of us having to contrast, okay, well, I've received revelation. What's the difference between me and my bishop or my sick president or a member of the corner of the 12 or the president of the church? And in some ways, there's not a difference.

And in some ways, there is. It comes back to those two lines of communication you were talking about, Hank. But it seems to me that as Aaron and Miriam approach Moses with this, you know, they're looking for some other reasons to be upset with Moses. So the first thing they bring up, I mean, what they're really there to talk about is, hey, we get revelation too, but they're going to bring up something else to begin with. And verse one, you get this idea that they spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman, whom he had married, free and married an Ethiopian woman.

We have nothing else about that. Zero information. When did that happen? I don't know know and so on. So if I'm just going to put on my speculation hat, which is all we can do with this verse, I'm going to guess that this is something that happened while Moses was still in Pharaoh's court, because the Egyptians had some really important relations with the neighbors to their south. For them, that was more important than what was going on in their north, their neighbors to their south, and they had a tradition of some political

marriages. And so it would make sense if Moses is part of Pharaoh's hair, I mean, he's grown up in this part of the court, that he might have been part of a political marriage to strengthen ties with some of the Ethiopian leaders. We have no way of knowing if that's true or not, but it makes sense to me. And then Moses leaves all of that behind, and I have no idea what's happened to this woman, but did he get her when he went back and she's come with them or not?

I don't know, there's a whole lot of question marks here that we don't know about. By like what you said there, Kerry, they're looking to be offended. Yeah, they're looking to find fault in Moses. Yeah, so they have one issue that they don't like, but in order to justify it, they've got to find some other reason to be upset as well. Find something small, make it a big deal. Now, the interesting thing is the Lord's response. It's not just that he teaches them, and this this comes back to you. If you remember way back when we had our first interview with Moses one,

I said one of the keys to understanding the Old Testament is to recognize that God speaks to them through symbolic action. These are people who expect symbolic responses. So it's not enough for him to explain it the way he did where he says, I'm going to speak to Moses differently than others, because Aaron and Miriam coming to Moses and challenging him is an action. It's something they've said, but it's also an action. So if God just responds with speaking, that's gonna look like, okay, whatever you can make up, whatever you want, we wanna see an action that responds. So God responds with an action.

And his action is, Miriam's gonna be struck with leprosy. And that seems really harsh to us, but that's because we just see the leprosy and we don't follow through to the end of the story. Let's follow through to the end of the story. Well, it's here, it's verse 10, and the cloud departed from off the tabernacle. Now, that's important. Okay, you guys, you've just lost God's presence. We have that happen in our lives, right? Where we're going to challenge something that the the prophets are teaching us. We're going to lose the spirit when that happens. It doesn't mean we

will never have it back. You can certainly invite it back, but whenever you're in the mode of challenging the prophet, the spirit's going to withdraw. That's just that's how it works. So the spirit withdraws and behold, Miriam became leprous. Why does snow and Aaron looked upon Miriam and behold, she was leprous. And Aaron said in a Moses, I'll ask my Lord, I beseech thee lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly and wherein we have sinned immediately. They recognize this is an answer from God. And they're like, okay, we get it. We blew this.

I don't know why Aaron gets off Scott free. He seems to do that a bit. And maybe it's because if he's like, person, he can't officiate his high priest and they need him to keep doing that. But I love that it's Aaron who is pleading on Miriam's behalf. Aaron's, he's complicit in this. He's eating and abetting however you want to say it. He's complicit in this thing. Miriam gets the curse and however you want to say it. He's complicit in this thing.

Miriam gets the curse and Aaron's like, okay, I want to plead on Miriam's behalf. We repent. We're sorry. Can we get rid of this? Yeah, we've sinned. Then Moses steps in and also pleads. And Moses cried into the Lord saying, heal her now, oh God, I beseech thee. So Moses, and remember, this is his sister.

He didn't really grow up with her, but it's his sister. Moses pleads on God's behalf and then God says, okay, I is his sister. He didn't really grow up with her, but it's his sister. Moses pleads on God's behalf, and then God says, okay, I'll heal her, but remember, when you are a leper, you have a cleansing period. So she needs to go through the cleansing period, and I love this, verse 15, and Merriam was shut out from the camp seven days, so the minimum time, and the people journeyed not

till Merriam was brought in again. So think of this, it sounds like such a harsh thing when God says, okay, I'm going to strike Miriam with leprosy. And we're like, whoa, but God immediately heals her. And then as she goes through the process of being able to be with Israel again, they say, we won't move on without you. We'll wait. And when you're ready, then Israel will move on.

To me, that's a story of incredible mercy, not a story of harsh judgment. God does what he needs to do to teach what he needs to teach. The lesson is learned, and then God says, okay, I'll make this as if it didn't happen, and we'll wait until you're good and ready, and then we'll keep going. That's a very merciful God.

And if we'll often look at that whole story like we do here when we see it in other places where we see what seems like a harsh reaction, we'll see it's always followed by this mercy. So often we people here, oh, the God of the Old Testament seems to be different than the God of the New Testament. He's so harsh and so I love that you can point it out. This is the way you're looking at it. See the love and see the mercy in there instead of seeing it. That is a harsh judgment. But I wanted to ask you, what can you help us understand verse 14 a little better?

And the Lord said unto Moses, if her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? Is that some law of Moses thing? Under the law of Moses, there are a number of things that make you richly impure. So it's not spiritually impure, it's richly impure, but there are symbols that are supposed to teach you. Body fluids being on you in a way that's not normal, that's not how they're supposed to be going.

And so that can include if you have a wound that's oozing past or things like that. So being spit upon, this makes you richly impure and you have to go through the purification process. That's one of the beautiful things about the love Moses. There are all sorts of things that make you impure and it's okay. Everyone is going to be impure, everyone. And that's no big deal. It's built into the law to how to overcome that and become pure again, which really again

teaches us a tremendous amount about our immortal probation. We're all going to cut ourselves off from God again and again and again. And I'm not saying don't worry about it, but don't worry about it too much. It's in the plan. And God's prepared the way for us to overcome that. Don't beat yourself up and think it's the end of the world. Say, okay, well, that's what I did. Here's the process for coming back. And so that's what he's saying here is, if it had just been spit,

then she would have to go through a purification process. She's a leper. There's a purification process that has to go on here, right? And I love what you were saying, John, about some people see it like a God of mercy in the New Testament and a God of justice in the Old Testament. I have to say, that's one of my pet peeves. That really, really bothered me. When I hear that, I think, okay, you didn't read either book very carefully. There's plenty of both in both. We just somehow decided that. But that's one of the keys is you have to look for it. You have

to follow the whole story. So, and some of the stories being made a leper seems fairly harsh, but there are other stories that seem more harsh to us. So, for example, again, in the story where we don't cover and come follow me, but where Korra and a number of Levites come to challenge Moses, the ones who challenge Moses, they end up being killed. And we're going to find that happens a number of times in the Old Testament. Someone is killed, and we say, Whoa, now that's harsh. And from our point of view, it is.

But that's because we have a fairly mortal perspective. From God's eternal perspective, it's not that harsh. He just took them from one place and put them in a... It's almost like he sent them to their room, okay? Did what I could with you here, you're causing so much trouble with everyone. I got to get you out of this situation, send you to their room. Okay? Did what I could with you here. You're causing so much trouble with everyone. I gotta get you out of this situation. Send you to your room. And I'm gonna let you stew for a while in your room.

And when you've called in, I'm gonna come talk to you there. The other room is what we call the spirit world. And God comes and talks with them there. Just as kind of the prime example of that, the group, the largest group that he had ascended the room because they were doing the worst is the people in the days of Noah.

All of them die. They're all sent to the spirit world, but we know that that's the group Christ goes to when he's in the spirit world. Which means that as bad as they were, that wasn't the end of the story. God was still going to work with them. So from a mortal perspective, they all died. That's terrible. From God's perspective, I sent him to their room and I let him cool down and then I go talk to them later. And knowing that he always gives him another chance. He gives people the flood another chance. I think he's going to give Korah and his group another chance and so on. Then we see it as a story of mercy rather than a story of wrath.

Kerry, I think there's going to come times in everybody's life where they are Moses, President Nelson or another prophet or apostle, is going to say things that they don't agree with that they don't like. Chapter 12 is a great reminder to take those things to the Lord, maybe not go public with these problems that you have. Miriam and Aaron, that's their first thing. I'm going to go public with this. Instead, go to the Lord and have that personal connection with him where you can work that out with him.

Yeah, you compound the problems if you do it the other way. Yeah, if you struggle with something that the prophet has said, go to the Lord, he'll talk to you. Yeah, the Lord is willing to entertain questions and doubts, depends on how you do it. If you're a belligerent, that's one thing. If you're going to the Lord and you say, here's what I'm struggling with. And we see Moses, he does that. Like, I'm tired of these people. And the Lord says, well, we're going to work with them a little longer. Right. Welcome to my world. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right. The Lord's willing to work with us if we are coming to them with honest, sincere concerns,

not with, I mean, He'll still work with us. It's just going to be in a much harder way if we come to Him and say, Hey, this is being done wrong. Yeah. Then He has to treat us a little bit differently than if we come to Him and say, I don't get this and I'm uncomfortable with this. Can you help me with this? Chapter 12, that's an important chapter in me now, where I don't think I would have seen that before. But let's go to chapter 13 and 14,

which are probably, in my mind, the greatest lesson we can learn from this reading. And as we get into chapter 13 and 14, I actually want to jump forward to Deuteronomy chapter 1. And this will tie into what John was saying earlier. And we're going to read what I think is one of the most important verses in the Bible. But whenever I say that and I have my students read it, they just stare at me like you are from Mars, right? And you'll do the same thing when I read this to you. But this is Deuteronomy chapter one verse two, incredibly important. It's all in parentheses just to make it seem less important.

There are 11 days journey from Horib by way of Mount Sierra under Kadesh Barnia. You see how important that is now, right? Let me explain. Horib is another name for Mount Sinai. Kadesh Barnia is the place where they send out the spies. This is the place where from there, they're supposed to go in and inherit the Promised Land.

So we learn it's 11 days, even on foot, as John said earlier, it's 11 days from Mount Sinai to the place where they're supposed to go in and inherit the Promised Land. It takes them 40 years to inherit the Promised Land. 40 years. So now we have to ask ourselves why? Why did it take so long? Keep it in mind, this whole archetypal journey thing. The idea that if we're on this same journey, then I have to ask myself, in what ways am I making an 11-day journey, a 40-year journey? And we all do. And if the problem is outlined in the scriptures, then so is the answer. So let's look at the problem and we'll see it in chapter 13 and 14. And we don't have to read... They take the long way, Kerry. Yeah, they take the long way.

This is the scenic route. Enjoy the wilderness. Yeah, that's exactly. Enjoy the wilderness and it snakes. So let me just kind of summarize part of 13 and 14 if that's all right. And then we have a couple verses that we'll just focus on. They get to Kadesh, Barnea, and this is where they're supposed to go in and so Moses says, well, let's do a reconnaissance mission. Let's get one person from each tribe and go in and let us know what the land is like and what the challenges are obstacles to inheriting that land will be like. So Kerry, just to clarify, this is the land that when Joseph brought his family out of

Egypt, this is where they were before that. Kadesh-Barnia is on the border, even today, it's kind of on the border of Egypt, Israel, in the Sinai wilderness. So it's the very southern, just before you leave desolation wilderness territory and start to get into southern Canaan for them and where you can have flocks and things that will grow. You're not going to grow grapes in the Sinai area. You are going to grow grapes in the Nigev or the southern part of Canaan and they're on that borderland between them is where they're at.

The house of Israel has been gone for a while. A long time, yeah, very, very long time. They don't remember what it's like. Well, and there were people who were there already. Remember when Abraham was there, he was among all the Canaanites. He was a stranger there. And so we're Jacob and Isaac.

They were strangers there. So this is an oasis where they can still survive, but they're not yet in the place where you can just have a whole bunch of people living easily. So, they send people in to find out what's it like in that area. And they come back with a report and they say, it is fantastic. And in fact, Caleb and Joshua come back carrying a big bunch of grapes that is so big that it takes the two of them to carry it.

They're carrying it on a stick between the two of them, right? It's the official logo for tourist department in Israel because Caleb and Josh were they think of as the first tourists in the land. They went through and toured and saw how great it was. But they come back with proof. This land is fantastic. Stuff grows there, but there's also a report that they give.

And it's the other 10 that give this report, 10 of the 12 spies, they say, yeah, it's a great land, but I'm going to tell you what, the guys that live there are big, and they have really big walls around their city. And that means it's, that's more than we can overcome. We can't overcome that. We won't be able to conquer these guys because they're tough, and they have huge walls, and we can't get over those walls. There's no way we can do this. Chapter 13, verse 31, we be not able to go against the people.

They are stronger than we, then verse 33, we saw the giants. And then they say, and we were in our own site, grasshoppers. Yep. So they can see, this is tough. Now let's be clear, they've got a legitimate concern. If they are on their own, this is more than they can do. Right? They can't do this if they're on their own.

These guys are too big and their cities are too strong. Now you're going to cover Joshua and the conquest a little bit later, but I want you to keep in mind these two concerns they have. The guys are big and the conquest a little bit later, but I want you to keep in mind these two concerns they have the guys are big And the walls are big and you'll see how the Lord deals with those right he can deal with big walls and big guys He's got plans for this and he and he takes care of it God can get rid of this problem and that's exactly the point Caleb and Joshua are saying no wait Let's do this

Let's go in Yeah, the walls are big. Yeah, the people are big, but God said we can do it. Let's do this. Let's go in. Yeah, the walls are big. Yeah, the people are big, but God said we can do it. Let's do it. If we look at verse six in chapter 14 and Joshua, the son of none and Caleb, the son of Jafuneh, which were of them that searched the land rent their clothes, and they spaken to all the company of the children of Israel saying the land, which we pass through to search it, is an exceeding good land if the Lord delight in us. So note how they put this in the right perspective. If the Lord delight in us, which he does because they're covenant keepers, although they're about to not be, and give it us a land which

floweth with milk and honey, only rebel not ye against the Lord, neither fear ye the people of the land, for they are bred for us. They're not giants, they're bred. Yeah, and the Lord is with us, fear them not. You see their point? If God is with us, who can stand against us? Is there a question? Yeah, they're big, but not when we have God.

God is bigger than them, but, verse 10, all the congregation bade stoned them with stones. That's what we do to faithful people. Yeah, that's right. Hey, wait, you tell me I need to follow the prophet when this sounds like craziness to me. Yeah, let's say bad stuff about you and try and get rid of you. Yeah, stone you with stones.

And then note the next thing, and the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all get rid of you. Yeah, stone you with stones. And then note the next thing and the glory of the Lord appeared in the tabernacle of congregation before all the children of Israel. So God says, okay, now I have something to say. And let's look at what he has to say because I think it's incredibly powerful. And I want to tie this back into this archetypal journey we've been talking about. So verse 11 is where God has something to say. And the Lord said in end of Moses, how long will this people provoke me? So we've talked about that provocation a couple of times on the program, I think. And how long will it be, this is the key line. How long will it be air? They believe me for all the signs

which I have shoot among them. And you say, and look, I showed you I can deliver and you still don't believe that I can deliver. This is the reason they're going to wander 40 years. This is why that 11-day journey is a 40-year journey. Because God's going to say, fine, if you don't believe me, we are going to let everyone who doesn't believe me die off and will have a generation that wasn't raised in Egypt, that was raised in the wilderness and the only way they ever survived was relying on me, then we'll have a generation that can believe me. So to kind of paraphrase Maroni who says we have to strip ourselves of all unbelief, God is saying we're going to strip ourselves of all unbelievers. But if this is an archetypal journey, then really it is talking about stripping ourselves

of all unbelief. We have to ask how might this be us? So if the archetypal journey is about going into the Promised Land, and the Promised Land is symbolic of the celestial kingdom, and if Israel's real problem is that they don't believe that God can overcome the obstacles and get them there, then that must be saying that that's one of our greatest struggles in being exalted. And if you think about it, there are some real obstacles to being exalted. Death and hell are a couple of them, are fallen natures, right? And it's pretty natural for us to say,

we can look at someone else and say, you know, John is such a good guy and he does so many good things, but I look at myself and I know my own problems and one of the key things when we look at ourselves, like maybe John's done a couple of wrong things, but I know he's a good guy who has good intense. I know some of the things I do were for bad intense. Like, I have times where I don't have good intents and I know it and I know God knows it. And so we have a hard time believing that God can exalt me. We really struggle with that. In fact, I always remember when I lived in Los Angeles, the steak one time wanted to do a survey and they did it in Presonial Relief Society. So this is way back when we had three hours of church, right?

So this is only among people who have lasted three hours and they did it right at the end. And one of the survey questions was, do you think that you will be exalted? And I don't remember the number, but it seems like there was more than 30% said, no, I won't be exalted. If we were to do it with my students today, I think I'd get an even higher number that don't think they can be exalted. If we were to do it with my students today, I think I'd get an even higher number that

don't think they can be exalted. We don't believe Christ when He says, I can change you. Let's go back even further to what you mentioned with Exodus 19 and 20, when God wants to bring the children of Israel into His presence at Mount Sinai. And they see his glory, they see how magnificent he is with the thunders and the light needs and everything else. And they say to Moses, you go talk to God and tell us what he says, because if we go talk to God, we'll die. Now, they have a point. If God doesn't change their nature, they will die. Moses learned that and Moses chapter 1 to go back to when we talked before. He had to be transfigured in order to withstand God's presence.

But the point was God could transfigure him. And God told the children of Israel, I will bring you into my presence and then they say basically we don't believe so. We just don't think you can do it. And it's the same problem they're having again. And that's why Joseph Smith tells us that's why they get the lower law. Here we know this is why they wandered for 40 years. So the two great difficulties, challenges that they get are because they don't believe

God when he says he can do something. And that suggests to me again that this is one of our biggest challenges. We think that God can't exalt us. We think our ability to sin can overpower the Atomin. Now, when I say it that way, of course, it seems silly, but that's really what we think. We think our ability to be just ding-dongs, to just be silly foolish people can overpower the Atomin,

which is ridiculous when we say it that way, but that's how we feel. We need to believe him that he truly can Change us and bring us into his presence. No matter how silly you are, no matter how wicked you are, no matter how stupid you are Christ can change you and that's something we have to believe. No matter how inconsistent you are, no matter how often you You do the same sin again, no matter how many times you don't do what you know you should do, Christ can change you and exalt you. And coming to believe that is one of the greatest things that we need to do in our

mortal probation. So we can take it back to what John is saying. That's the first principle. So we can take it back to what John is saying. That's the first principle. It's not just faith that Christ exists. It's faith that Christ is our savior, as to this temple recommend question, is our savior and Redeemer that he can save us from ourselves and our sins and redeem us and Exalt us. That's what we have to believe. That's our greatest challenge in life, I believe. He says himself, I am mighty to save. I'm good at this. You can trust me. And he's shown them.

He's shown them he can do it. Yeah. I would guess most of us at some point in our life have felt something, some kind of spiritual thing that let us know that God could take care of us, or that we've been forgiven. So if God forgave me of whatever dumb thing I did when I was 10 and I felt forgiveness, then He can forgive me of whatever it is I'm doing.

He's shown me before that He has the power. I just don't believe in. Please join us for part two of this podcast.