Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Revelation 1-5 Part 2 • Dr. Nick Frederick • Dec 4 - Dec 10

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Join Dr. Justin Dyer and Sister Aislin Dyer as they delve into the profound themes of God's love, the journey towards emulating our Heavenly Parents, and the transformative impact of Jesus Christ in our lives.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-41-52/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056YouTube: https://youtu.be/2DX44UftjwkInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part II–Dr. Justin and Sister Aislin Dyer00:07 Show instead of tell when loving others02:14 Anointing and abiding06:26 Stewardship, goals, and patience09:34 Jesus as Advocate11:34 Hank tells a personal story about not judging our past14:10 God is love17:20 Jesus loves perfectly21:45 God loves his children23:53 Becoming like our Heavenly Parents29:33 Commandments help us experience God’s love31:36 The many definitions of love33:06 Special witnesses of Jesus Christ37:08 Prioritizing our testimony39:02 Jude’s example of people on a faith journey44:47 Being in alignment with the Holy Ghost48:20 Responsiveness53:49 Takeaways from this week’s lesson57:54 End of Part II– Dr. Dr. Justin and Sister Aislin DyerThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part 2 with Dr. Nick Frederick, Revelation chapters 1 through 5. So there's the first four churches in chapter 2, chapter 3 we're going to get the last. So these final three churches. The first church is the church's sardis. And here's what John says. These things say to the that have the seven spirits of God, kind of these angelic attendance, that we saw in previous that have the seven spirits of God, these angelic attendants, the seven stars, angels that oversee these churches. I know that works.

That has the name that they'll live us and are dead. My guess is something like they appear to be faithful, yet they persist in sin. Perhaps something like that. This church is going to have a specific problem with complacency. It seems to be their issue. Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die. In other words, raise your game. You've got to take it up a notch here. You're getting complacent. You're getting comfortable all as well in Zion. And that's not how I need my disciples to live. Verse 4,

thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments. In this image of garment, again, the filed garments seem to symbolize sin. Our cleansed garments seem to represent the atonement. They shall walk with me in white for they are worthy because they've resisted sin. Then that clothing imagery continues in verse 5. He that overcome the promise is they shall be clothed in white raiment. Your clothes right now that are defiled are going to be made white in the blood of the Lamb. I will not blot out or condemn their name

out of the book of life. Think of the book of life as something like a census for the New Jerusalem. If you want to be included amongst the community in the New Jerusalem, your name gets put in a book. Perhaps what we see in Exodus, where Moses says in Exodus 32, don't block me, I pray the out of thy book,

which that was written. Don't take my name off the census, so to speak. Okay, don't boot me out of the community. Keep me on the roster. Exactly, keep me on the role. And then, no, says, I will confess his name. boot me out of the community. Keep me on the roster. Exactly. Keep me on the role. And then, no, says, I will confess his name. I will affirm that we have a relationship.

Instead of blotting it out, I will confirm it before my father and before his angels. And those that are struggling with, I don't know if I should fully commit or not, I'm becoming a little bit complacent in the world. The promise here is, if you're willing to go that extra mile, raise your game, do what you need to do as a disciple, the reward will be, I'll have your back, I'll be right there. I'll make sure your name gets put on the rolls. I will confess your name before the Father. I like that imagery that thou hast the name that thou livest and art dead. It's you look like you're doing the right things,

but it really hasn't happened for you internally. Exactly, going back to Alma five, there's that step, that transformation that has to happen with discipleship, and this church hasn't made that leap yet. These are applicable, even though he's not writing to us, I can see myself in pieces of these congregations. These are problems in any dispensation. You're going to have churches, you're going to have communities, they're going to struggle with things like complacency, things like accommodation,

things like leaders who might be taking you one direction rather than another. Who do I listen to in a world where I get a lot of different voices and a lot of different suggestions? How do I phase out the rest of it? I mostly see myself in smear now where they're doing really well. More than next one. Actually Philadelphia might be more of a reality. Oh, okay, let's go though.

Our sixth church right here. Verse seven, to the angel of the church in Philadelphia, these things say that he did his holy, he did his true. This is fascinating. He that had the key of David. He that opened up the no man shutteth and shutteth and no man opened up. That's fascinating. If you remember from Isaiah 22, we get this interesting scene where a fellow gets fired from his job, essentially as a steward to the king, and he gets replaced by Alaya Kim, the son of Hilkaya. This is Isaiah 22, this is about verses 20 to 23.

This is what the key of David is, as far as we can tell, like another Old Testament illusion. He says, I will clothe him with thy robe, strengthen him with thy girdle. I will commit thy government into his hand, he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem into the house of Judah, and the key of the house of David while I lay upon his shoulder. So he shall open and none shall shut, he shall shut and none shall open, I will fasten him as a

nail in a sure place, and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. So that's the promise here that's made. I'll give you the key of David. Essentially, it seems to me at least to be something akin to the ceiling power that Peter gets, or the Matthew 16th seal on earth and seal in heaven, but this image of a nail in a sure place is the image of a tent peg. You put a tent peg in the ground and it keeps the tent in place. And he says, that's what he will be since he has the key of David. In other words, as it applies to Jesus,

Jesus controls who has access to the Father. And what I will do for those of you like the people in Philadelphia, I will make sure you have that access to the Father. You'll have the key of David. You'll get in the door. It's fantastic. I do feel like that's more me. Thank you for pointing that out. I was able to kind of reinforce some of that for you. Then, first eight, I know that works. Behold, I have set before thee an open door in this access to God.

Okay, you've got it. No man can shut it. For thou hast a little strength, and thou hast kept my word and hast not denied my name. Verse 9, they do have some tribulation here. I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews or not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before they feet to know that I have loved thee. You are my people. I will make that public, I will make that demonstrable, that you're the ones that I have chosen, verse 10, because thou has kept the word of my patience. We would say something like endure to the end. Here, you've endured

to the end. I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth, the day of the Lord, think Joel chapter 2. Behold I come quickly, hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown, the laurel wreath, they won the competition, they've got the laurel wreath. Notice what they're promised in verse 12, "'Ham that overcome, will I make a pillar in the temple of my God? I'll make you a permanent member in my house, and he shall go no more out. I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God. It was typical in pagan temples that you would write down the name of the donors

on the pillars of the donors on the pillars of the temple. The ones who donated the money to build the temple. And as Jesus is essentially saying, that's what I'll do for you. In my father's temple, I will inscribe your name on that pillar. And the To those in Philadelphia, that's what they're promised. Fantastic. I think I will write upon him the name of my God.

I think of a book or my kids with their toys. It's mine. I'm going to write my name on it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the idea. I'll claim you as mine. If you can see the difference, you can see the difference between how the Lord writes to the people in Philadelphia who have overcome those things who are being loyal disciples, who haven't let complacency or accommodation settle in versus those who are still struggling. Nick, wouldn't it be interesting to be part of these letters and to hear how everyone else is doing? Right?

Yeah. You're like, oh no. That's actually going to appear here. It's interesting that you bring that up because it actually occurs, seems to occur at least here with the church in Leo Decia. He says in verse 14, because this is the most accommodating church. This is one of the churches.

This is the opposite of Philadelphia. This church is being very accommodating. So verse 15, I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot. I would thou art cold or hot. Understand both of these by the way as positives. Both cold and hot

are positive things here. He's like, I wish you were one or the other. For 16, so then because they're lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew, I will vomit the out of my mouth. Hot beverages, cold beverages have their purpose. You can bathe in hot water, you can drink cold beverages. But something that's tepid, tepid water is pretty useless. Sometimes I hear the people say, it means the church is in the middle of the road because they're in between. That's not the case here. It means completely out of fellowship. Pick hot, pick cold, do something to get yourself back into fellowship. You are as far out of fellowship as you can be and the image we're going to use there is tepid lukewarm water that you want to vomit if you drink it.

I can have hot chocolate, which is good. I can have a cold ice water, which is good, but a lukewarm drink is a search no purpose. So the application that I could take is be useful. Yes. It's a good way to put it because hot or cold are useful. Yeah. Exactly. Verse 17, because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing and know us not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.

So echo is a key Benjamin here, right? Yeah. Sorry, I'm laughing, but that's a funny first. They've embraced the lifestyle of the elite, and they think they've become that elite. Here's where we get the reference I made to Hank, what the reaction be from the other churches. He says in verse 18, I counsel thee to buy of me gold, tried in the fire that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment that thou mayest be cold, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear. Do these things so that no one has to know how bad you've actually been?

And what happens for 2,000 years? The shame of Leo to see has been preserved in the Bible. We do actually literally get to see the shame of their nakedness. The other churches would have read this and said, I'm really glad I'm not Leo Decia. Annoying thine eyes with ice out that I'll may see right, take pride in being my disciples. Be hot or cold. Being out of fellowship doesn't work. As many as I love, I rebuke and chastin. Be zealous therefore and repent. Do you've got some problems? I'm gonna call him out. I'm gonna chase in you, but repent and be hotter cold. And if you do, verse 20, I stand at the door and knock. I'm waiting for you.

I'm still here. I haven't gone anywhere. I'm still here. If any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come into him and we'll sup with him and he with me. And the invitation to a special intimate relationship having a banquet together that goes of the Messianic banquet that Isaiah talks about that we'll see later on in the book of Revelation What's the promise here to verse 21 to him that overcome?

Well, I grant to sit with me in my throne Even as I also overcame and I'm set down with my father in his throne. I like the connection here. In Bracken chapter 1, I'm going to make you kings and queens priests and priestesses. Then when you get in chapters 2 and 3, you get all these images of kingship, all these images of priesthood, pillar in my temple, white raiment, like the priests are going to wear, sit on my throne, a crown of righteousness, hey, like a king, okay? All these images can be tied into images of kingship

and priesthood. You read that and say, that sounds great. I would love to be a part of that. I would love to be a pillar in God's temple. I would love to sit on God's throne. What do I need to do? Well, to him that overcome. What's the next logical question?

Overcome what? Yeah, what does that mean to overcome? Yeah, yeah. And so John says, I'm glad you asked. Let me tell you about a vision I had that will show you how to overcome. I'll identify, have we Father in Jesus Christ? I'll tell you how to find Zion

and I'll identify Satan and the forces of evil and I'll show you where Babylon's at and the things you need to avoid so that you can overcome and find yourself in the New Jerusalem. So chapters four through 21 answer the question, what do I need to do to get these blessings to them that overcome? What does that mean? Exactly. Could I go back to Revelation 3.20 for a minute? I'm thinking that some of our moms and dads out there with kids that are trying to figure out how they're going to explain what apocalyptic is to a three-year-old. But Revelation 3.20, we had this painting in our house growing up and the come follow me manual actually has that reprinted or a similar one with Jesus standing at the door knocking and I can still remember being very young and my dad walking me over to that painting and saying, John, what's different about the door? I'm like, it's wood. I don't know. And him saying, there, didn't, did you notice? There's no handle. Oh, why is that?

And he said, you have to open it from the inside. And I just, I still remember that. I think that might be a fun thing to share with the kids. This idea that he is so ready and willing to come in, but you have to open the door if you want him to come in. Yeah. Especially for a church like this that's struggling with commitment. Jesus is saying, I'm not gonna break down the door if you want to come in. Yeah, especially for a church like this that's struggling with commitment. Jesus is saying, I'm not going to break down the door and drag you to dinner.

What I want is for you to invite me to dinner. I want you to want to be my disciple. It's not behold, I bust down the door and force you to do it my way. It's not that it's I'm here, but you have to open the door. Yeah, exactly. It's nice inside. This last one is the only one that said, I am rich. I have need of nothing. And they're blind. It sounds like he says you're blind to the fact that you're in a really bad place. Oh, I love it says, and thou know us not. It's like you're completely unaware that actually a wretched, miserable poor blind and naked. You think if you have that you would know it, but it doesn't, doesn't leave much

the left out there. Yeah. So I'm thinking that's a very second Nephi nine that all's well and Zion. No, I'm good. Everything's fine, but you don't really realize you're the bad shape right here. Yeah. Once we started thinking that we have something over others, I'd let's see a lot of King Benjamin. Are we not all beggars? Nick, could I take from chapters two and three as a something that's not said, but maybe implied that the Lord knows us as individuals. He knows these individual congregations. Instead of talking to everybody all at once, he said, look, I know your personal struggles. Is that kind of an unsaid message? Is that, are you okay with that?

I'd say absolutely. I think what a lot of what the book relations trying to do is convince somebody that they can put their trust in God and put their trust in Jesus rather than put their trust in the emperor. Where are you going to put your faith? And what you're seeing here is that not only is God powerful, but yeah, there's this intimacy as well. God understands each of us. He knows these congregations. He knows our strengths and their weaknesses. And it's

not like there's just seven congregations. There's dozens, if not hundreds of congregations, right? At the end of the first century, the idea is that God knows them all. And the idea today is that thousands, if not 10,000 of congregations, and my guess is we could each get an individualized letter from God telling you, I know your congregation, I know what you're struggling with, I know what you're doing well, and you could push that even further, each family could get a letter from God saying, I know what your struggles are, I know what you're trying to

overcome. I really appreciate all the good things you're trying to do. Here's why I like you to keep in mind. The Book of Revelation wants you to understand God in a sense as someone who gets you and understands you and is therefore worthy of your trust. That's fantastic. I think any of us could sit down and say, what would God write to me? I think we're aware. I need to do this better. I need to do this better. And to actually get one from God, that would be sobering, wouldn't it? Yeah. I don't know if I'd want one or not. Yeah, me too. And to all of our listeners in Philadelphia, if we have any, you're doing great. You're

doing great. This city of brotherly love there. You're doing awesome. So Nick, I like what you've done here. You said, okay, he's written to these seven churches and here's now chapters four through 21. Here's what it means to overcome. So I don't have to get caught up too much in the individual dragon, the woman. I can look for that meaning throughout the whole text, right? Of overcoming,, overcoming evil,

and how I want to, which side I want to be on. That's how I read it. Like I said, I tend to align myself more with the idealist perspective that what you get in the book of Revelation is a how to overcome for every dispensation. There are just some truths that exist no matter when you live.

And the book of Revelation is trying to talk to all those audiences at the same time. That's how I interpret it, but it doesn't mean that the dragon and the two beasts refer to more specific things. That they don't have specific comparisons with something with the Roman Empire. Right, this is always the trick. When you deal with Revelation 6 and you start opening these six seals, you start saying, well, who's this white horseman? Is this an actual figure in history? Is this somebody from John's time period?

Is this somebody who's going to be in the future? Or does white just mean conquest? You kind of have to go through each of these steps as you work your way through the book of Revelation. As I read it, yes, that's how I would read it is how you describe it there. I wouldn't say that's the best way or the only way. It's one of many ways, but it's the way I'm comfortable with. Yeah. That's how I would read it as well. The things that the first three chapters have been centered on Christ, so don't lose that center as you continue through the book.

Yeah, one of the mistakes I see people make is they want to jump straight to chapter four, have been centered on Christ, so don't lose that center as you continue through the book. Yeah, one of the mistakes I see people make is they want to jump straight to chapter four, because that's where the vision actually starts. A door opens in heaven, that's where we start to get the cool and crazy imagery. And if so we skip these first three chapters, but to me these first three chapters are the thesis statement for the book. I made you kings and priests. Here's what you'll get, right? For those of you who are able to overcome, you'll be able to inherit and receive these blessings. Now, here's a lesson on how to overcome.

But if you skip these first three chapters, it becomes a vision without an anchor, without a final purpose to it. Those first three chapters, I think, are pivotal. All right, we have you for a couple more chapters. So let's not let you go just yet. Chapters four and five are the beginning of the, what you said, this vision.

Yeah. Chapter four is about centrality. I mean, Roman Jerusalem, we're typically seen as the centers of the world. So what the book of Revelation is going to do is it's going to realign that. It's going to realign for you where the center really is. And the center of the universe is going to be God's throne.

We're transitioning from the prophecies in these last two chapters into this much more broad perspective. Instead of one church that exists somewhere in Asia Minor, the church of Smurna, we're now going to pull back and look at the big picture. And we're gonna start at the center of the big picture, which is God's throne room. Now, you have to see John's audience, the first century audience would be intimately familiar

with pagan temples. Now, they'd be intimately familiar with the images of pagan gods. Either it'd be a natural response would be to be an awe of temples, to be an awe of gods. Chapter four is gonna show us the true awe, true respect belongs to Heavenly Father. That he is more worthy,

he is more deserving of your love, your respect, your honor, than the gods and the temples that you may be used to seeing and may have at some point in your life worshiped. I'm trying to convince you of where the true source of your devotion should come from. I'm going to do that by pulling back the veil and taking you to the heart, which is God's throne room. This is the right place to start. Book of Mormon starts the exact same way. Lehigh finds himself in God's throne room. So there the right place to start. Book of Mormon starts the exact same way. Lehigh finds himself in God's room. So there's a lot of parallels here between Ezekiel 1 and Revelation 4. Maybe before you jump into Revelation 4, you may want to start with the quick review of Ezekiel 1.

So you can see some of the images that John is going to use, some cases similar, in some cases, different ways here in chapter 4. So the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking to me, which takes us back to Revelation 1. We saw how the Lord Jesus Christ was introduced, which said, come up, Hither, and I will show the things which must be here after. Question of time. When is this stuff going to happen?

And immediately I was in the spirit. And what does this mean? The shrewmines we have Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, where he's talking about his vision of the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, or I cannot tell. Joseph says the same thing in D. and C. 137. He has this vision of January of 1836. He says whether in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell.

So this just a shift in location, a shift in perspective, is there something else that's happening here? He says, I was in the spirit. And behold, a throne was set in heaven. And one sat on the throne, we are pretty typical for Old Testament visions, the Isaiah 6, the Ezekiel Daniel, and you'll notice that we don't see God described in human characteristics, but in very ways that preserve God's transcendence. That seems to be the theme here. God is not just another human being like the emperor. I'm not going to describe him in human terms. I want to preserve or maintain or promote the transcendence of God. We'll see that in the imagery, John,

is going to use to describe him. You don't want to take it literally. What we're doing is using symbolism to promote transcendence. Verse three, Kida sat was to look upon like a Jasper, which is a green stone, and a sardine, which is a red stone, and there was a rainbow, much like Ezekiel, round about the throne, inside

like unto an emerald. Probably what's meant here is not that there's a rainbow, like of seven different colors, but a halo of a greenish color, like a green halo surrounded his throne. And Emerald rainbow. But a lot of times I'll see the, like a picture, there's actually literally a rainbow there or something like that.

It's probably more of an Emerald halo, is what he means. The NIV says, and the one who sat there had the appearance of Jasper in Ruby and a rainbow that shone an emerald encircled the throne. Rainbow more is a bow of light rather than seven different colors or something like that. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats. So here we get into numbers, significance of twenty four.

Well, it's two times twelve. What is twelve symbolic of? Tribes. Tribes of Israel, apostles. It seems to be a number that is used to describe or symbolize Israel, right? God's people in some capacity. And here there's two sets of them. So we're talking about twelve tribes and twelve apostles.

Old Israel and New Israel come together. We know that in Judaism there were 24 orders of priests of which Sakharaya was one of those orders. Do we have that priestly imagery here again? These are priests in the presence of God. Numbers we've taken a number of different ways. Closed in white Raymond, we've seen this theme of white raiment, perhaps referenced priests, they had on their heads crowns of gold. So there's something regal. They are kings and priests. It's like we were promised in chapter 1 verse 6 that Jesus made us kings and priests. So in a way these 24 elders seem to represent the future state of the believers.

Those of you who overcome can become like these people right here clothe in white raiment with crowns upon their head because they are part of Israel. You could look at it as something like that. The symbols could go a number of different ways, but that's one that seems to make sense to me. Verse 5, out of the throne proceeded lightenings and thunders and voices. These symbols of divine power, right? Things that happen in heavens. Remember prophecy, stuff that happens on earth. Apocalyptic is stuff that happens in heaven.

So we're looking at things from a heavenly perspective. So things like lightening and thunder and voices, seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, right? Which are the seven spirits of God. All these images signifying God's majesty here. Then, verse 6, before the throne, there was a sea of glass like unto crystal, probably a reference to the firmament, this clear case or covering that separates the waters. Okay, the creation, Ezekiel 1, the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of living creatures.

So we're still following up Ezekiel here, but their perspective is a heavenly one. Okay, the firmament in heaven. I've heard people refer to this as Lake Powell, heavenly sea of glass. On a summer morning when it's time to water see. Why not? It is quite pretty. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like emerald at Lake Powell too. Yeah. That's that's the beauty of symbols is we can make them mean wherever we want them. That's right. If we want this to be Lake Powell, the throne could be a boat. I don't like how he was on a houseboat in Lake Powell.

And see if glass is ready to be skiing on. You just have to be able to fit 24 people in there. I think we've gone off the rails. That was a good example of how quickly how quickly happened. So this sea of glass, now are we talking about God the Father here? I think so. So Nick, should I see this as, here's God, the Father, and he's looking out over all creation, all his creation, there's nothing hidden from him. That makes sense to me. The Sea of Glass, the way Joseph describes this, right, we have Joseph giving us inside

about this in DNC 130. Joseph says it is the earth in's sanctified immortal and eternal state. So the idea there could be this is something that the immortal sanctified earth god has a perfect knowledge of or something because you can see everything that's in front of him. That makes sense. I wonder from another perspective we're supposed to see it as the farmament because we're in heaven and the perspective of Earth from heaven is we see the Firmament that divides the waters. The waters from above the Earth and the waters below. So it's a heavenly perspective, therefore it's a sea of glass.

I think there's three or four really nice images that could emerge from that. And in the midst of the throne and round about the throne were four beasts, literally living creatures, four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind. And what we'll see about these beasts, they will come to exemplify true worship. They will initiate the divine threats, they will be the ones who call the forehorseman, they will give the bulls to the angels. So these four beasts will have an important role to play in unfolding hours as the events of the book of Revelation unfold. Then we're given a description. Verse 7 of these beasts. The first beast was like a lion. The second beast like a calf. The third beast had the face of a man. And the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. This follows the

Zekele pretty closely, except in the Zekele, each of the four beasts had four different faces on them, and here it's four separate beasts, a lion, a calf, a man, and an eagle. And of course, as... So John is borrowing from the Zekele, but changing things a little bit? Yeah, that seems to be the case. He'll do that a fair amount of time. So take the imagery, he'll adopt the imagery, and then he'll adapt it to the more of a Christian purpose, or of a Christ-centered purpose. Very rarely is he just taking something wholesale and just assigning it the same meaning it had in Ezekiel or Daniel. That's why you have to know what Ezekiel Daniel is saying.

So you can see how John shifts it around. How John makes alterations and changes and adds new on stampiguity rather than taking something wholesale. Of course, this is where the idea comes from that each of our four evangelists are often represented with a specific animal, Matthew, represented by an angel, Mark associated with a lion,

Luke associated with an ox, rider, calf, and then an eagle represents John, okay, and all the artwork and things like that. So you can always tell which evangelist is by which animal is in the painting with them. That idea comes from here in Revelation and in Ezekiel. Okay, they just become associated with the evangelists. I don't think that's the case. I don't think John is saying the four evangelists were surrounding the throne, but that's often how it's portrayed in art. All of a sudden it's getting difficult.

More difficult than it has been up till this point. Yeah, very much so. Because we switched oners. Yeah, that's a great point. We switched oners. The rules have changed. Would John's audience, do you think read this and heard it and just known? Pocalyptic was a language that your first century Christian is by and large going to be

familiar with, especially if they have a Jewish background. So I would expect that John's audience would be familiar with this or else I don't know why John would speak to them in this way otherwise. He's not making it difficult on purpose. Right. I think it's supposed to be clear. Okay. What's happened is the first century speaks a certain language.

And in the first century context, this would be plain and easy to be understood. In the 21st century, in the West, we no longer speak that language. We don't speak the language of metaphor. We don't speak the language of symbolism. We want literalism. We want things to mean exactly what they say. So for us, it's complicated. But for the first century church, and I think this would be just you're switching back between two very common ways of talking about things. My guess is, yeah, they would be comfortable with this or else why would John choose it as a mode of expression.

One of the things that I'll sometimes hear that always makes me raise an eyebrow is somebody will say something like, well, John didn't understand what he was seeing. He described it in a symbolic way, but I understand what John means. And Hank used the example earlier of the locus being helicopters.

John didn't understand that when he's looking at helicopters, he was like, well, they look like they were huge locus, flying around. So one of the cautions I would say is that we probably don't want to get to the point where we're saying that we understand the vision better than John does. I would extend that pride to his audience as well, just to tie a bow around that. His audience

probably has a firmer definition of this than we do today. Okay. That reminds me of Nephice comment after the Isaiah chapters. Well, you didn't understand the manner of prophesying among the Jews. So maybe in a different time and place, this would be planar to us. Which for us, I like, it makes it like a puzzle, like a parable. We're going to have to dig in and do some work. I like that. I think it's like a parable takes a little more time to think about than if it were literals. If only somebody would have a podcast about it or something. That would be so convenient.

I could have listened to it before I came on this. But this is the trick. And this is what I tell my students when we get to book a revelation is honestly you almost have to read this at least two different times, sometimes four different times. Is it literal or is it metaphorical? Then you have to ask yourself is it historical? Is it just first century? Is it in the future? Or is it just a spiritual point or principle? And you have to do that for every verse in the book of Revelation.

That's what makes this so complicated. It demands our time, it demands our attention, and it demands that we be responsible when we do it. We bring the right tools to the table. Nick so far in chapter four, God is on his throne. He's incredible. He has a lot of followers. The creation is in front of him. Nothing is hidden from him. Am I okay? Yeah, I think so. The fact that we have

these beasts here, right? This lion, this calf, this man, this flying eagle, suggests something about the order of creation as well, that I've noticed there's one human being in here with three animals. Does that suggest something about, sometimes we think of ourselves as the peak of the created order, but maybe from God's perspective, all life somehow has a sacred nature that perhaps escapes us sometimes. Whenever I teach a gospel doctrine to the youth, they always want to know what happens to their pets, right? When they're having to get pets when they die, sometimes I'll bring them here to show them that there are animals who are in some eternal immortal states surrounding the throne of God, perhaps a sign that our own pets, our own animals, find their way into God's presence at some point. Hank, you can have our cat in the next life.

No, thanks. I don't like cats. My wife likes cats. So we compromised and we have three cats. Do you want for Joseph Smith actually makes the observation in 1843 talking about these animals. He says they were probably actual animals from other planets. The idea being that other of gods planets also have animals on them. And they're also represented at this point. So Hank, you may be encountering a planet of cats. There's some point. Good structure. Who knows?

Oh, my little boys would love that, but not me. I want to go back to helicopters because I wouldn't mind having a helicopter. If I can just overcome this life, maybe I can get a helicopter. There you go. If there's a planet of cats, there may be a planet of allergy pills. Once again, we found ourselves going a little off the raft of the book of Revelation. So yeah, it's easy. Yeah, it's easy. Yeah, it's fun to look like this. Yeah. Okay, these beasts,

it continues in verse eight. He describes them. Yeah, each have six wings, right, which is very similar to the angels in Isaiah 6, the Sarah Females, who had six wings. They're full of eyes, the idea being that they watch over God's throne. Okay. They rest not day and night saying, Holy, Holy, Holy, which is a nice Hebrew way of saying, Holy is supremely, holy Lord God Almighty, which was and nice Hebrew way of saying, holiest, supremely, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was and is and is to come, which takes us back to, who said this saw the same thing,

that reference to Exodus 3.14 that we saw back in chapter 1. Jesus is the one who is, who was and is to come. And this transcendent majesty of God and his son is what we're talking about here. We're trying to convince our first century followers to put their trust in God and Can the Emperor? Can any of the rulers in the first century? Any of these mighty political figures can they claim anything similar to what John has seen heavenly Father in Jesus Christ been able to You know to demonstrate the world in which they live the power that they wield here in Revelation chapter 4. Would you say that's the summary of these 11 verses? Is God is all powerful? There is none like Him.

Yeah, that's what I would say. We start the vision here with the assertion that God is Almighty. He is the one who has the power. He is the one in whom you should put your trust You've seen thrones you've seen temples you would have seen Triumps and praids where generals and emperors and kings and queens would have marched down the street But can any of them compare to what you're reading about right here or what you're listening to right here. And the answer is obviously not. Like a Moses one moment, he sees God and he says, I now know man is nothing. Which, exactly. I never supposed.

I think we're seeing that same idea. Once you leave chapter four, there should be no doubt in your mind that Heavenly Father is the being you want to put your support behind. Because what's gonna happen is gonna get pretty rough. We're only a couple chapters from Unleashing Hell on Earth, but you want to know that the one who sits on the throne knows exactly what he's doing. You can put your trust in him.

What a way to start the vision. Keep your mind centered on this throughout the rest. Exactly. So now I've got this set. God the Father is all powerful, all mighty, stronger than any earthly leader. What's next then? Once I've got that set and established in chapter four, what's chapter five? Well, chapter five is we're going to be introduced in a different sense to the Savior. We're going to see why the Savior holds the position that He does and how the Savior stands next to the Father. So, chapter 5 is the Savior's introduction. What we'll see in chapter 5 is three different parts,

all based upon perspective. So, verse 1 is kind of part 1, and I saw in the right hand, and we've got our imagery, the right hand that signifies power, specifically the power to bring judgment, called the covenant hand if you want to. In this case, the hand of the father, because he's the one sitting on the throne, he's holding a book. You have to think like a scroll, a papyrus scroll here, not a book with a spine and covers and things like that.

And we find out that the book is written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals. So one of the questions is, what is this book? Later on, we're going to see that the visions that are disclosed, what's going to happen is this God's plan. We don't exactly know why we're to make of this scroll as a kind of the plan of salvation that the Savior has fulfilled. Whatever it is, it's sealed. Not just sealed with one seal, like you would typically seal with sealed with seven seals. And each of these seals is going to have to be broken in order to be able to read it.

In other words, to be able to understand what's on this scroll. Nick, is the seal like a wax covering like an envelope sealed shut and I've got to open it? Exactly. Right, and you have to see seven of those just working down the side of the scroll. And it's written on both sides somehow, but it's sealed to the point where all seven of those seals are going to have to be broken before what's inside can be rebuilt. I've got an envelope inside of an envelope inside of an envelope. Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I've got to get to that one in the middle.

Time becomes an interesting question here. I mean, I tend to approach this as time becomes an interesting question here. I mean, I tend to approach this as what happens following the ascension. I've also heard others approach this as we're in pre-mortality. We're starting at the beginning and God is holding up a scroll or a plan and saying, I need somebody who can go down and make sure this plan is realized. Kind of a counseling heaven, so to speak, depends on what perspective you take here. I don't know if either of them is necessarily right or wrong. I think both of them work more of the story as we find ourselves in some sort of council. With God saying, I have information that's important, but in order for this information to get out, someone's got to break the seals,

and it has to be somebody special. It has to be the seals. And it has to be somebody's special. It has to be somebody worthy. It can't just be a regular person. Verse 2, I saw a strong angel, which we'll see again in chapter 10 with another scroll and another powerful angel repeating the same scene. But this angel proclaims with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book scene, but this angel proclaims with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book and to lose the seals thereof. And this idea being that it needs to happen, but it can only happen by somebody who's worthy to do it. So is this like who has the authority, who has the virtue, who has the ability?

Yeah, not everybody can do it. We've established how great Heavenly Father is. Now we need some way to establish how worthy and how great and how honorable Jesus is. And this is how we're going to do it is through a scroll sealed with seven seals that no one else can open up. We could bring DNC 77 into play here. Joseph asks, what are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed in the back with seven seals. And he's told we are to understand it contains the reviled will mysteries and works of God. The hidden things of the economy concerning this earth during the 7,000 years of its continued or temporal existence. So somehow it's information that needs to get out there, but it's hidden. It can't get out there until someone special, someone worthy

is there to do it. And unfortunately in verse 3, we can't find anyone. No man in heaven, nor in earth, nor under the earth, was able to open the book to crack the sills on the scroll, neither to even look, they're on. And in the ancient world, your universe is what's known as a three-story universe. You have heaven, you have earth, then you have what's under the earth. And that's your entire universe. It's kind of those three stories. So what John is telling you is we looked everywhere. We looked all over heaven, all over earth, all over under the earth, we can't find anybody who's worthy to do it. What that tells you here, we're setting the stage for

Jesus. No one is like Jesus. There are not five Jesuses out there. We looked everywhere. We couldn't find anybody who could do this. That's how unique this task is. It requires someone's special, someone specific. And John starts to get worried. I wept much, he says, because no man was found worthy to open the book

and to read the book, neither to look there on, right? He's worried God's message is going to remain hidden. Whatever is here that's so important, we'll never get out because we can't find the person who is worthy to do it. And we're getting anxious. But verse five, one of the elders said unto me, we've not behold the lion of the tribe of Judah. Here we have a reference to Genesis 49. Judah is a lion's Welp. The scepter shall not depart from Judah. So we have this regal imagery. There's a reason why it's called the lion king, and not the cat king or something like that, right? The root of David, an echo of Isaiah 11, there shall come forth

a rod out of the stem of Jesse, a branch, a grotto of his roots, a regal, a kingly image. This individual hath prevailed past tense, and has conquered, to open the book and to lose the seven seals thereof. So John, you were worried, guess what? Someone's done this. We found someone. Exactly. And he's described as a lion to the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David. Your expectations are of a certain sort of individual, somebody regal, a lion king. What's what you're looking for? So verse 6, here we get part 2, and I be held. We see the shift, so the first part of this chapter is about the scroll in the hand of the Lord, or of the Father. Part 2, introduction to the Messiah. And I be held, and low in the

mist of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the mist of the others stood not a lion but a lamb and not just any lamb but a lamb as it had been slain. So opposed to the regal unconquerable lion, you get the definition of vulnerability. The opposite of a lion is a lamb. Having seven horns, which is curious. That horn seemed to represent power. You expect like a bowl. The image seems to be that while he's a lamb, he's not a sheep. If you can make that distinction. He's not without power. He's not this passive animal. He's a lamb with power. He's vulnerable, yet he's powerful. And seven eyes,

suggesting wisdom, knowledge, sight, which are the seven spirits of God sent forth into the earth. The idea that Jesus and God see everything. There's nothing that they're that he and the father are not aware of. To go back to your point earlier about the churches and chapters two and three, the Savior's site is perfect. So we have one of these paradoxical images. You don't make something white by washing it in blood. You don't expect a lion and receive a slain lamb. But that's exactly what's happened. He hears about a lion, turns and looks, and he doesn't see it, he sees a lamb. Yes, exactly. A lot of imagery there, a lot of symbolism there. One of the common ways to sort this out is that this is Messianic expectation. The Jews are expecting a political Messiah.

A Davidic Messiah is going to conquer the earth, and they're looking for that lion. But what they missed was the vulnerable lamb, right, who came down to earth, born in Nazareth, grows up in Galilee, and is crucified. Expectation versus the reality of what he wants. Exactly, but there's also something beautiful there about this incredible figure who has seven horns and seven eyes, yet he's defined by his vulnerability as a lamb, a really thought-provoking picture of the Savior here, a lamb as it had been slain. Reminds me of John the Baptist, right?

The whole the Lamb of God. I don't think it's coincidence that in the Gospel of John, it uses that image twice, right? Lamb for Jesus, and the book of Revelation, what are we going to use again? It's going to be John using Lamb for Jesus. Connections between that story there and a provocative imagery. I don't know how much the number symbols, what we're supposed to learn from them, but you can see that in the footnotes and the JST, it changes it to 12 forms in 12 eyes and then says which are the 12 servants of God sent forth into all the earth. I'm looking at footnotes 6b from the JST that's

interesting and the 12 servants of God sounds like the 12 I guess. Yeah. And seven makes more semi can't really have seven horns right you got to have an even number. Yeah, it's asymmetrical otherwise. 12 representing Israel again. A covenant number is Joseph bringing this back into the sense of back into the arena of God's people Israel the covenant people, that idea running through here. Now reminding us of Israel. Tribes. Yeah. So the lion is a lamb, but in verse seven, he has a hand. He does. Where he came and took the book out of the right hand.

He was able to take the book. Mm hmm. This is about expectation and perception. You might feel a lot better trusting a lion, trusting a slain lamb requires a bigger leap of faith. A crucified Messiah requires a leap of faith. But we're going to show you how the people in heaven who are a whole lot smarter than you are down here on Earth

we're going to show you how they perceive of the slain lamb. As the slain lamb comes and takes the book, we read this more metaphorical than literal, the Savior, the resurrected Savior, comes and takes the book, the scroll, sealed with seven seals, out of the right hand, he now acting as God's agent. Power has been passed like a baton in this sense, has been passed from the Father to the Son. He now acts as the Father's agent. If you can trust the Father, you can trust the Son. He has similar powers, similar responsibilities that Pamu said on the throne. And when you've taken the book, the four beasts, now we see the reaction to the Lamb. We saw the reaction to the Father in chapter

four. Now we see the reaction to the Lamb here in chapter five. When he had taken the book, the four beasts and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, which he has a priestly idea, like it was a Levitical duty to play music in the tabernacle. There's golden vials full of odors, which it takes us back to the temple, the altar of incense, perhaps. So we see this priestly image as Jesus ascends to his throne. Prayers were told, these golden piles of odors are the prayers of the saints, and they sing a new song. And we see this in the Psalms. It's often in the Psalms. You'll see people saying, we're going to sing a new song. So we have another Old Testament illusion here. And here's the song. Thou art worthy to take the book.

And remember, no one else was worthy. We couldn't find anyone else. Jesus is unique. He has a special role and to open the sills thereof. And this is really nice. Thou was slain, which in Greek is the verb spotso, which is a very, very violent verb. It means essentially to slaughter. Thou was slaughtered.

But that has to redeemed, which means literally to purchase. Or, of course, saying in Hebrew, that was purchased us to God by thy blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. That's why we should follow you. That's why you're worthy. You were slaughtered and you redeemed us. You saved us You bought us back. You purchased us through that blood that you shed and not just us Every kindred every tongue every people every nation. That's John's way of saying everybody Everybody everywhere has an allegiance and obligation a connection to the Savior through his sacrifice an allegiance, an obligation, a connection to the Savior through his sacrifice. So I might have been looking for a lion to save Jews.

What I got was a lamb that saves everyone. I think that's exactly right. Might not make a whole lot of sense when you think about it that way. A crucified Messiah. It's a stumbling block, because we saw Paul says in first Corinthians, that's foolishness. It doesn't make a lot of sense. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna show you how the people in heaven react to it.

And they react with honor and awe and wonder. And maybe we should take a page out of their book and react the same way as they do. Yeah, it's almost like they throw a party. Really, that's essentially what it is. They're playing music. Verse 10, now notice this. This is gonna take us all the way back

again to chapter one. We come full circle. And chapter one, we were told that Jesus redeemed us through his blood and made us kings and priests. Verse 10, that Dal, the lamb, has made us, which is actually them. There's a weird English translation here, but Dal has made them, meaning the people who have been redeemed,

unto our God, kings and priests, a kingdom and priests, what it literally means, but kings and priests more familiarly, and we or they shall reign on the earth. The idea here is that because Jesus gave up his life, because he yielded his will to the Father, he's now earned the right to take the book, open the seals, and pronounce judgment upon the earth. This one's a little bit easier than chapter four, just a little bit easier. I think part of that is because the idea of a crucified vulnerable, compassionate Messiah is not a foreign concept for us. We're comfortable with that. If you're not comfortable with that, it becomes complicated, but we're comfortable with that idea. This is very

familiar from the Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon talks about compassionate to the Lamb of God. That image is all over the place. And the Book of Mormon. And so verse 11, part three, for the third time, John's going to be hold something and now we're going to branch out. If I was father, then it was son. Now it's everybody. Verse 11, I be held and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders and the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 and thousands of

thousands. You can do the math on that. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. It's a very big number. If you put this in a first century perspective, if you're a Christian, you live your life every day filling out numbered.

You're surrounded by Jews, you're surrounded by Gentiles, surrounded by pagans, you're always in the minority. And then what do you have here? You have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of beans in heaven worshiping the Savior. You're now in the majority. You're now part of this larger party when you worship the Father and the Son. Saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. Notice how many words there.

Power riches wisdom strength honor, glory, blessing, seven. John likes to use numbers. Sometimes he'll just give you the number like seven. We'll see what next week's reading a number like three and a half. He finds like four different ways to say three and a half. You have to read carefully a time times and half a time, for example, for three and a half. They're 42 months or 1260 days for all different ways of saying three and a half. So you always have to be aware of the numbers that live near the surface here. Power, riches, wisdom, strength,

honor, glory, and blessing. And every creature, which is in heaven, remember, our view is now, this is apocalyptic, we're unveiling the Father, we're unveiling the Son, now we're unveiling heaven itself. Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such are in the sea, and all that in them are, everyone,. Previously, no one was found to be worthy when we looked in heaven and earth and under the earth. Now, everyone acknowledges the Lamb is worthy. Blessing and honor and glory and power be unto him that sit upon the throne and unto the Lamb forever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that lived forever and ever.

And this is really nice. We in chapter five, we began chapter five with some doubt with some consternation. Would we find someone worthy to open the seals? We end chapter five with peace and harmony in heaven. Everyone, thousands upon thousands are all joined in worshiping the Lamb, all is well in heaven. That's the message of chapter five. Everything's good up there.

What's the next question? What about down here? What's gonna happen on earth? And that question will quickly be answered in chapter six as we start breaking these seals that are on the scroll. We'll start to see how much disharmony is on earth as opposed to heaven. This has been just fantastic.

I've got Jesus being introduced in chapter 1. He speaks to these seven churches in chapters 2 and 3. I'm introduced to God the Father and His glory in chapter 4, and I'm introduced to the mission of the Savior in chapter 5 and His unique role in the plan. Do you feel like I got you there, Nick? That's summarized it well. You're going to want to hold that and contrast it next week. Beginning in chapter 6, everything is going to be very different.

It's going to be the opposite on earth. It's going to be chaos. It's going to be disharmony. The challenge that the book of Revelation faces is, do you want what I show you about heaven? Or do you want what's here on earth? You need to make a choice. Choose which one you want. Don't be lukewarm. Choose which one you want. And then if you want to overcome, if you want those blessings in heaven, pay attention to what I'm going to tell you in this vision, because I'll lay it all out for you. I love the idea in chapter five of it sounds like the father

having the book and the son, the lamb. I remember it seeing, I think, in maybe in the book of John, the gospel called the gospel of God. And I remember Elder Mac seeing, I think, in maybe in the book of John, the gospel called the gospel of God. And I remember Elder Maconkey saying, yeah, why don't we call it the gospel of God? Well, it's because the Savior put Heavenly Father's plan in motion and it became the gospel of Jesus Christ then. That sums up very nicely what's happening in the book of Revelation. Yeah. That's what it reminded me of. The Gospel of God, the fathers, our Heavenly Father's plan became the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the Lamb is going to put it all in motion and

have his blood slain from the foundation of the world, which is that it was always known that would happen type of the things. That's what I'm seeing. Yeah, that's nice. who has always known that would happen type of the things. That's what I'm seeing. Yeah, that's nice. Nick, this is from a non-latter day Saint Bible scholar, but a great one. He said, the pastoral role of revelation is to summon every generation of readers to follow the lamb in its footsteps and to resist the beast within and without, and to suffer along with the lamb, if need be, in bearing witness to what he's done. If that's not where it ends, we've totally missed the purpose of this apocalyptic literature. Do you feel like that's our first five chapters

and needs to culminate in how great the lamb is. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Sometimes when we get lost in the language of cracking the code, I have to know what 666 means. I have to know what this red horse is. What we're doing is we're losing sight of the big picture. The big picture here, I tell my students this every semester, I can summarize the book of Revelation in two words. Jesus wins.

That's the point. You want to be on the winning side or do you want to be on the losing side? If you want to be on the winning side, then follow the Lamb. As you work through these chapters, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, emulate what the 144,000 are doing, be aware of the tactics that Satan's going to use in chapters 13 through 17. Make sure that you're there for the marriage supper of the Lamb in chapter 19. The overarching purpose here is to remind us to follow the Lamb and avoid the beast. And the beast is very, very good. The dragon is very, very good. In fact, in chapter 13, the beast, what we call the Antichrist, is described as being like a lamb. He's essentially a counterfeit lamb. He's very good at looking like he's the lamb.

And it's up to us to be able to discern through the spirit of prophecy and revelation, through texts like I think the Book of Revelation, through something like the Book of Mormon, on how to figure out where the true lamb is. So we recognize those who were in heaven and have no problem recognizing that lamb is worthy. Will we reach the point where we can say the same thing? And that's that's not an easy thing to do. The world is a very complicated place. Satan's very good at throwing things at us and presenting himself in a certain way. And it takes a lot to kind of cut through that. But that's why I love this book. That's why I studied the book of Revelation because to me, that's the challenge.

Find the right lamb. Understand who Jesus is, what his mission is. Make sure I'm doing what I need to do to be overcoming. That's the challenge of every day of my life is make sure I continue to overcome. Going back to this quote, the point is to keep the big picture in mind. It's so easy to get lost in the little things in the book of Revelation, Locus, and other things like that. We lose the lamb, and we don't want to do that.

The lamb, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It's right there in the first verse. And if we start getting on directions that we're not talking about Jesus anymore, we're being distracted by something else, then we need to step back and refocus and find the lamb again. President Nelson said, I express special gratitude to the Lord Jesus Christ. I am thankful for his loving kindness and for his open invitation to come on day. I marvel at his matchless power. I testify of Jesus Christ as the master healer. It is but one of the many attributes that characterize his incomparable

life. This is almost like a chapter five. Ask quote, he says, Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God, the Creator, the great Jehovah, the promised Emmanuel. Our atoning, Savior, and Redeemer are advocate with the Father, our great exemplar. Doesn't that seem to be the message of chapter 5, Nick? I like what you said there. Choose the right Lamb. There's going to be a dragon that's pretending to be a Lamb. Don't choose that one.

Choose the authentic Lamb. It is interesting because as you work your way through the book of Revelation, the lamb disappears. The lamb is so prominent in chapter 5, to the point where tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of beings worship him. And then he begins to open the seals and he recedes into the background. And we don't really see a parody of the lamb later on, but we don't actually see the Lamb reemerge. In a similar fashion, if we get to chapter 19, I think that parallels why we need to keep these early chapters in mind, why we need to base our faith and testimony upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. Like, what he

offers us in these early chapters, the promises of making us kings and queens, priests and priestesses, the transcendence of the father and the power of the Savior, because there's going to be times where it doesn't seem like he's there, that God isn't in the world, that things are going to feel oppressive. It's going to seem like the Lamb has disappeared, but he's always there behind the scenes. The Lamb is always watching things. God's hand is completely in control. That's the point here.

There's nothing that's going to happen on Earth that God isn't fully in control. That's the point here. There's nothing that's going to happen on earth that God isn't fully in control of. Don't lose that perspective. Even when it seems, the lamb might not be there or God may have lost part of the control. Christians in the first century, Rome may seem like they've got everything completely under control and you have no power of your own. Just remember, the lamb is always there. The father is always in control. And sometimes that's hard for us to remember because the dragon can be pretty persuasive. Babylon can be a pretty persuasive place. The lamb is always there. So this is one of those books, Nick, that it's okay to read the end and say, oh, the lamb comes back. Yeah, absolutely.

Jesus wins. That's the point of the book, right? Jesus wins. I just had this phrase when John was writing, the revelation was to the churches about he that hath an ear to hear, let him hear. And if anybody's listening, they have an ear. That's a fact.

But letting him hear, that's a decision of opening our ears to hear. I love that the Lord used it in parables, that he will have ears to hear. You have ears now. What are you going to do with this? And decide to hear the testimony that we've talked about today. I like that. I got to open my ears to hear this. And thank you for pointing us to Christ. If you're getting off onto timelines and what locus are your off the rails, as you put it, thank you for that. Nick. It's fun. You can see what the appeal is. Right? I can crack the code and figure out everything that's out there, but it takes us away from the heart of the book. Awesome. Nick, if I'm at home, I've stayed with us here for the last few hours.

By the way, thank you for those of you who are still with us. What do you hope I walk away from this thinking? Well, I'm ready to study the book of Revelation responsibly, but what's my main takeaway? I hope it's confidence. I hope it's confidence that the path that you've picked as a disciple of Jesus Christ is the right one. I hope this book solidifies the decisions you've made to be where you're at are the right ones. The book of Revelation is going to tell us there's going to be a lot of opposition. There's going to be a lot of things that are going to pop up that look like they're the right thing. There's going to be a lot of things that are going to pop up that look like they're the right thing. There's going to be a lot of things that are going to happen that make you question

whether you picked the wrong side. But I hope that what we've done with these first five chapters give you the confidence to continue in your path as a daughter or son of heavenly father. Awesome. What a great day. What a great day. I don't know in personally, but I think John would be happy with what we've done. I hope so. I don't know him personally, but I think John would be happy with what we've done. I hope so. I hope we did him justice. It's always a little bit uncomfortable commenting on someone else's work, right? You just hope you get it right. I'm so profound, beautiful work. Thanks for being here. It's just so fun to sit here and listen to someone who has done the research and done the work. Yeah, explain things. is someone who has done the research and done the work. Yeah, explain things.

Hey, thanks for having me on. There's nothing I love more than just sitting and talking about the scripture. So this was a pleasure. Yeah, us too. We want to thank Dr. Nick Frederick for joining us today. It's been absolutely wonderful.

We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sonson, our sponsors, David and Verla Sonson. We always also remember our founder, Steve Sornton. We hope you'll join us next week. We're going to go through these chapters of Revelation on Follow Him. Today's transcripts, show notes and additional references are available on our website, follow him.co. That's follow him.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts.

All of this is absolutely free, and we'd love for you to share it with your family and friends. We'd like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stokedon, Crystal Roberts, Arielle Kuadra, and Anna Beldson. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.

Turn to Him. Fault to Him.