Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Thoughts to Keep in Mind #7 • Reading Poetry in the Old Testament • Dr. Ross Baron • August 17-23

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

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Hello, our dear follow him friends. We are back again with another episode of thoughts to keep in mind. We have Dr. Ross Barron with us again. This topic today, reading poetry in the Old Testament. Now, years ago, I would have thought, there's no poetry in the Old Testament because when I think of poetry, I wrote one for today.

Would you like to hear it? Forests are green, deserts are baron, follow him's blessed to have Dr. Ross Barron. because that's what I think a poem is. It's got rhyme. It's got meter. I don't think Barron rhymes with Barron. It's a different spelling.

Ah, B-A-R-E-N and B-A-R-O-N. I appreciate that. It's got that meter and rhyme. And when I think of poetry, that's what I think of. We're talking about something different when we're talking about poetry in the Old Testament. Is that right? That is correct.

I'm honored by that poem, though, John. Thank you. Thank you. The deserts, they will blossom as a rose when you are here. John, I got to teach you how to use AI to write poetry. You don't have to do it yourself anymore. Hey, chat, write me a poem about Ros Bairn. I did do an AI poem for my wife, and I don't think I disclosed it. And she was like, I'm so touched. This is so no. He's crying. Oh, no. Anyway, then I, of course, came clean, and she wasn't super happy. Yeah. You probably start with that. Well, we love Kathleen. Absolutely.

Well, I would like to read the opening paragraphs in the thoughts to keep in mind in the manual. Then we'll let Ross take off here. In the Old Testament books of Genesis through Esther, we find mostly stories, narrative accounts that describe historical events from a spiritual perspective. Noah built an ark. Moses delivered Israel. Hannah prayed to have a son and so on. Beginning with Job, we find a different writing style. In these books, Old Testament writers turn to poetic language to express deep feelings or monumental

prophecies in a memorable way. We have already seen a few examples of poetry sprinkled throughout the historical books of the Old Testament. From the book of Job forward, we will see a lot more of it. The books of Job, Psalms, and Proverbs are almost entirely poetry, as are parts of prophetic books like Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Amos, because reading poetry is different for reading a story, understanding it often requires a different approach. Ross, give us some thoughts to help us find meaning in Old Testament poetry. They don't have to rhyme like my intro poem. Yeah, I was going to do the entire podcast in rhyme and meter, but I decided not to.

The books of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes, are typically kind of considered the poetic books. Then they even break it down and the intro breaks it down as well. The book of Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes are considered more what's called wisdom literature, contemplating deep philosophical and theological questions and trying to address those. Whereas Psalms, they brought up Isaiah and Amos as the prophetic books. Maybe Isaiah is the quintessential prophetic prerxes. prophet in terms of the Old Testament. I wanted to read this from the August 26 Leahona.

This is Elder Dale G. Renland. This just came out. Quote, the book of Psalms in the Old Testament served as the ancient hymn book for God's covenant people. The book of Psalms, the ancient hymn book, revealing how they felt about Jehovah and their relationship with Him, continuing. At its core, the book of Psalms is more centered on Jesus Christ and more frequently quoted in the New Testament than any other Old Testament book. The attributes of Jesus Christ, specifically his mercy and grace, are repeatedly emphasized, unquote. The book of Psalms is probably the most poetic and Isaiah. Proverbs classically are what we call aphorisms, like wise sayings. Ecclesiastes is post. poetic dealing with rich images and asking some very hard questions.

The book of Job has a narrative section. The first couple of chapters in the last chapter are narrative, but the whole middle part is like one long Hebrew poetic thing going back and forth between Job and these three, I'll put it in quotes, friends. In the Latterty St. Citation Index, which you know I love, which is scriptures.b.w.edu, you, it links scriptures to general conference talks, journal of discourses, the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. It also can tell you at a glance, what are the most quoted books of any book?

I thought, okay, I'm going to look for Old Testament by general authorities in general conference talks, journal of discourse is the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. The number one most quoted from the Old Testament, the book of Isaiah, which I guess wouldn't surprise most. Then the next one is the book of Genesis, and the third one, the book of Psalms. That actually surprised me. Isaiah's number one, then the book of Genesis, then Psalms. We know that Nephi and Second Nephi 11 will say that Jesus was seen by Nephi, Jacob, and Isaiah, three eyewitnesses. That's one of the reasons Nephi wants to quote Isaiah so significantly and so extensively is because he's a witness of Jesus Christ. I think Isaiah, how appropriate that would be the number one quoted,

Genesis, which lays the foundation for the Abrahamic covenant, which all points to Jesus Christ, which also has Joseph, who is sold into Egypt as a type of Christ, is the second quoted. At its core, the book of Psalms, is more centered on Jesus Christ than any other Old Testament book. What a powerful thing that prophets and apostles are quoting from Isaiah, Genesis, and Psalms, which all point to Jesus Christ. I thought that was pretty fun, pretty interesting. Four years ago, when we went through this, for me, one of the aha moments was to look at some of the key moments of the Savior

going through the events of his atoning sacrifice and to look at Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 and go, wow, wow, wow, look at all these connections. When you said that those were the most quoted from the Old Testament, or Isaiah number one, Psalms number three, I thought, yeah, that's the central event, the atoning sacrifice. I don't know, and just read those Psalms that starts, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? You're like, whoa, here's Jesus quoting the hymn book from Gethsemini and from the cross. Oh, that's beautiful. The other interesting thing that I want to bring up, the Psalms 113 through 118 are they believe the songs

they would have sung at the Passover. Psalm 113 through 118, the halel is considered what they would have sung. They would have sung Psalms 113 and 114 before the major part of the meal, and then 115 through 118 after the meal, and then they sang a hymn before they went to Gethsemini, according to Matthew. In all likelihood, that was Psalms 115, 16, 17, 18, or some portion thereof. The other interesting thing that we should be aware of is that two of the quotes that Jesus and the gospel writers bring up are from those passages in 118. One is the stone that the builders have rejected has become the chief cornerstone. That's Psalm 118 and the triumphal entry. Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. That's Psalm 118. That gets repeated not only at the triumphal entry,

but also when Jesus is talking to them saying, we're not drinking wine until you say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. He's tapping into these ancient covenant hymns that resonates with them, maybe like it doesn't resonate with us because we're not as familiar with the book of Psalms. When you were talking about Psalm 22 in Isaiah 53,

I also think we should remember Psalms 113 through 118. All the Jews at the time would have known those intimately, because it was done at every Passover. I thought of another one too. Isn't it true that during the Feast of Tabernacles, when they would bring water from the pool of Siloam up to the temple, that they sang the psalm that says, draw water from the wells of salvation or something,

and they would sing these songs about water, and that's set up Jesus perfectly to say, actually, if you come to me, this is where you'll find living water. That's excellent. I wanted to start with what can we do? Somebody's listening and they're not resonating with this. I like what you said, Hank.

You can get some really nice bumper sticker like great quotes. Like, boom, a sound bite here, a sound bite there. I think this is a suggestion for our church scripture study in general. Number one, read more slowly. Sometimes we feel this obligation. Have you ever walked into a gospel doctor class? we're going to study Jeremiah 1 through 45. We're not studying it.

We're water skiing over the top. We're not doing anything close to that. One of the things that I've done in my family as a dad for a lot of years is I've slowed down. It's okay that we don't get through the chapter. If we're having a great discussion, it's okay. When you're reading the Psalms or the book of Job or ecclesiastes or proverbs, or Isaiah, it's okay if we read more slowly. That is something we could all do.

I'm going to try to model some of that here today as we study this. Number two, it's very interesting to read things out loud. Now, I know we're taking Hebrew and translating it into English, but even the Hebrew, the English, you can get some rhythm and you get a sound. You get to hear the repetition. Reading it out loud can be kind of fun. And actually is a fun family exercise to do, especially if you've pre-looked at the chapter

and you're like, oh, there's some really cool things that are going to jump out. Let's read it a little slow. Let's read it out loud. It's really powerful to do with young children, children, teenagers, and adults. Third one, with the new app we have, I think most people realize you can literally

tap on a word and then say define. I always say look up unfamiliar words and references. It's going to say some funky thing and people are going to be like, I don't know what that means. It's okay. You can just press on the word now and hit define and it's going to pull up a definition. It's a very, very insightful way to give you some latitude to now be able to talk about those words and not have to be, we don't know what that word means and I don't want to go look at a dictionary. It's just right there. We're going to read slow. We can read out loud sometimes. I'm not sure we want to do that all the time. We're going to look up unfamiliar words and references. I want to identify images and symbols. Sometimes we've got to flat out say this is a symbol. One of the things I wanted to do today, which I love to do in class, when I teach First Nephi 8, which you guys have all done so many times, a lot of times the students we have, especially the university level, they've already done the exercise where here's the symbol and what does it stand for? So mists of darkness is the temptations of the devil. They've done that multiple times. But I like to say, why do you think the symbol mists of darkness is used for temptations

for the devil? Why that symbol? How does that help us understand temptation? In what ways are we given insight so that we can overcome temptation once we know it's that? The beautiful thing about that is you can have a great conversation with lots of different insights. There's no one right answer. It's a very fun way to approach. When we're reading the Psalms and we have symbols and we have images, it's fun to say, okay, why that image? What is it about that image that helps me understand Jesus and his plan, his atonement better? In summary, we're going to read a little more slowly. We can read it out loud. can look for unfamiliar words and define them, then we can talk about symbols. Again, we got to slow down. Why that symbol? Then I like to look at it this way. I'm going to be open here.

I sometimes look at poetry like it's a math problem. Like I got to figure it out when it's probably more like looking at art, where you're reflecting on it, you're observing it. It's an evoking a response in you that might be different than the way someone else. is looking at it, then we can have a conversation. I've approached poetry in the past and even Old Testament poetry, a bit like a math problem. Like, I got to figure this out. There is a right answer when in fact, there's probably multiple ways to let it speak to you. I remember reading an article that if someone goes to like an art museum, the average time they spend looking at a piece of art is something like 25 seconds. I kept reading that someone,

art teachers will do like a slow art day where they're like, all right, 10 minutes, right in front of this painting, 10 minutes. And it sounds like if you're advocating the same thing, slow down. And here's a piece of art that somebody probably spent months producing and we're going to grasp all of it, even 10 seconds. That's a great analogy. You know how hard they worked on the light and the shadow and where it's dark and where it's light and what's the focus. Take five seconds. Yeah, that was nice. That was great.

Great job. And it's not a math problem. Most of the time, the point of poetry, the point of Hebrew Old Testament prophetic poetry, is to actually instill within us, let the spirit help us in our particular circumstance, at our life point, understand what God wants to say to us. sometimes we want to say, the mist of darkness equals the temptation of the double, which it does. There is a right answer. But then to say, why did he use that symbol? Now we can have a really fun, open discussion. And people can feel safe, not having to say, I'm afraid I don't have the right answer.

Ross, I think you and William Tyndale have a lot in common. I've been told that multiple times. William Tyndale, I mean, how much does that guy love Scripture? Oh, my word, yes. If you don't know who he is, he gave his life for Scripture. Though we read Scripture and babble of it ever so much, yet if we know not the use of it, and wherefore it was given, and what therein is to be sought, it profiteth us nothing at all. Now listen to this. It is not enough, therefore, to read and talk of it only, but we must also desire God day and night to open our eyes to make us understand and feel why the scripture was given, that we may apply the medicine of the scripture to our own source.

As thou read us, therefore, think that every syllable pertaineth to thine own self. How is that? Well, that's something else. I think that argues for the idea, Hank. I'm so glad you brought out because I was literally thinking about who translated these, how much King James borrowed from Tyndale, and how much they must have poured over what they were looking at in the ancient languages. How do you do justice to that?

I would think that would be such a daunting task. How in the world do I keep all the things we're talking about here and allow for people to think about it like you just said, Ross. Do you run through Moses 139? That is an earth-shaking, heart-stopping, wonderful verse, but we can read too fast. Like you said, Ross, okay, I'm going to read a chapter or night. Yeah, exactly.

By the way, I'm not opposed to somebody who says, you know, I got to get the lay of the land. I always tell them, have you ever read the book of Mormon cover-to-cover? No. Okay, just read the book of Mormon cover-to-cover. get the lay of the land, but then when you go back, you don't have to read fast. You don't have to read a ton. Howard W. Hunter has this great quote where he said,

you could spend profitably 30 minutes to an hour and not read a lot. I think the Tyndale quote is where you're going to get this depth. I've talked to people that may be struggling in their lives or having some concerns, and I'll say, tell me about your scripture study, and they'll talk a little bit about it, and I'll say, just let the word of God wash over you. And they'll be like, what? I'm back to my math problem. So sometimes we're reading scriptures because we want to create a doctrinal diagram.

I just said, let the word of God heal you. Let it wash over you. Take your time. The follow-up I've had on that, people have been back. Wow, I had a session this morning where I read the Word of God. I felt such peace. That's beautiful. That's so good.

Take your time. So Hebrew poetry. Now, we've already pounded home the point that it doesn't rhyme like John, by the way,'s opening poem. Which didn't technically rhyme either. You had to kind of see it, and then you saw that there's a different kind of barren. And so, Hank, I think we should all step back and wonder, why did John use that example of forests or green? What can that teach us? because you spent so much time on it, we should spend that equal amount of time.

I spent up to half a minute on that poem. I want to say this, and this is really important, that the chief may be characteristic of Hebrew poetry is a thing called parallelism. In fact, the introduction there on thoughts to keep in mind and the Come Follow Me, Manuel talks about parallelism. The idea is that one line in the sentence, in the verse, is then going to have a parallel to the next line.

They're going to reflect on each other, and we can learn so much. Now, the way our verses are laid out, sometimes we think we're reading narrative, even though it's poetic. It's poetic parallelism. Parallelism is the defining feature of Hebrew poetry. Let me give a couple other ones.

There's imagery and figurative language, which you're going to talk about. we've already said there's rhythm more than rhyme repetition is a big Hebrew poetic idea look for phrases words that repeat themselves obviously the Lord through whoever's writing that is trying to get a point across symbolism I am going to talk about the chiastic structure which is a particular or Hebrew form of writing where you have a point like point A, then point B, then point C, C might be the middle, and then C prime, B prime, A prime, which parallel each one. I hope I said that clearly enough.

There's a famous one in the Book of Mormon we all know, which is Alma 36, which is one of the great chiastic structures maybe in literature. There are really clear ones we're going to look at today in the book of Psalms. The other thing thematically is to, especially in the book of Psalms, there's covenant-centered themes, God's covenant with us, our covenant with Him, and, of course, the character attributes and perfections of Jesus Christ. If you're reading the Psalms, like John, you brought up earlier, Psalm 22, oh my, it is Christocentric. It is Christ-centered beginning to end. As we're reading the Psalms, we can be, what are we learning about the Lord Jesus Christ?

What are we learning about His covenant? Those are some ideas. If you're reading Isaiah, you're reading some of the Psalms, we're going to see these parallelisms that are super helpful. But you got to slow down. That's where you got to go. Oh, what are the parallels here? This is great. Would it be fair to say then in our common English poetry, we would think, oh, poetry means it's going to rhyme.

But what you just said, the main thing would not be rhyme. It would be parallelism. Is that fair? That's really accurate. It's the defining feature. Let me try an example. Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord parallel? Who shall ascend into his holy place?

It's kind of saying the same thing twice. Yeah, I have some examples. Can we look at them together? Let's do it. Yeah, yeah. Let's do it. Second Nephi 6 verse 6. I know that that is the book of Mormon, but is Jacob who is going to quote Isaiah.

He's quoting Isaiah because Nephi gave him the assignment. It's like he asked him to speak in church. And he said, you're going to talk on Isaiah chapter 49. By the way, he's modeling for us. He only takes two or three verses from Isaiah and then expounds on them. He's reading slowly, he's taking his time, and he's going to expand on this. Second Nephi 6 verse 6, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles and set up my standard to the people. I would insert, I will lift up my hand of the Gentiles and I will set up my standard of the people, meaning I think the I will continues through that. Does that make sense? Lift up, I will lift up my hand of the Gentiles. Lift up is paralleled with set up.

So you got lift up and set up. There are actually two different Hebrew words. One, Nassah literally means to raise up. It also is a root word to forgive. This is going to be significant. And then I'm going to set up, this is establish my standard. Now notice, I will lift up mine hand. Hand is then paralleled with standard. Now, the word for standard is the same word they use to translate for n sign. God is going to lift up Nassah.

He's going to raise up his hand to the Gentiles. It's kind of a punch in the face. If you're reading this and Jacob's reading it to his people, He's not talking about the house of Israel. He's talking about God lifting up his hand to the Gentiles. What's going on here? Then the parallel line, and I will set up my standard, my end sign to the people. The people is then paralleled with Gentiles.

We're talking about God doing a work among Gentiles. He is doing a work. He's lifting up his hand. His hand is his power. His hand is his righteousness. His hand could even be symbolic of the Lord. Lord Jesus Christ himself. Sometimes mine arm and my hand can refer to the Messiah. I will lift up my hand to the Gentiles. I will set up my standard to the people. Lift up, set up, hand standard

Gentiles people. Are we getting the parallelisms here? Are you guys excited about this as I am? This is good stuff. Bras, are you going to do a little Hebrew today? I am going to do some Hebrew, because I know John likes it when I do a lot of haching. So do I. I want us to see that Nephi has asked Jacob to quote a few verses from the 49th chapter of Isaiah. They didn't have it chapterized back then. He said, I want you to take these verses. I want this to be on the small plates. This is sacred stuff. So lift up, parallel was set up. My hand is parallel with my standard or an ensign to the Gentiles. It's parallel to people. All right. So what's going on? Here's a Howard W. Hunter quote from General Conference October 1979. Whatever Jesus lays his hand upon

lives. If Jesus lays his hands upon a marriage, it lives. If he is allowed to lay his hands on the family, it lives, unquote. If Jesus is laying his hand or raising his hand upon Gentiles, he is going to prosper and bless them. We know that the Book of Mormon and Jacob expounding of these verses, that's exactly what God is doing. He will bless Gentile nations. To what end? Why? Why? What is this grand and glorious role of these Gentiles upon whom he has laid his hand that he is lifting up and setting a standard among them? They, these Gentiles are going to bring and carry, there's the parallelism, sons and daughters of the covenant people in their arms and on their shoulders. Okay, wait, what? It's still not super clear.

These Gentiles that God has blessed among whom he has set up his standard are going to carry and, and bring Israelites, not Israelites necessarily from the state of Israel. I'm talking about Israelite blood, those that we're seeking. They're going to be carried metaphorically in our arms. In fact, that's like in your bosom, like this. We're going to carry them and then on our shoulders. To what end? Well, kings are going to be nursing fathers.

And queens, parallel, nursing. mothers. That's again another punch in the face because we're like kings don't nurse. But if you think about what do you do when you nurse, you're giving essential nutrients for life. What happens when we go to the temple? To what are we anointed to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses? Then what are we supposed to do as kings and queens and priests and priestesses, we are to nourish them or to nurse them so that they have the essential nutrients to come back to the Holy One of Israel, to come back to Jesus Christ. What do we do? Metaphorically, we carry them in our bosom and we put them upon our shoulders and we bring them back to the source

of true nurturing, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. That is awesome. And that's just a couple of verses using the parallelism can help us, bless us, expand the verses, and as we slow down and think, it opens our eyes to the majesty of God's beautiful plan. Kings and queens. Kings and queens. That's fantastic. Nursing fathers, nursing mothers. Have you ever seen something John right in front of you the whole time?

You're like, why don't I ever see that? Yep, that's why we do this. You just get humbler and humbler when you're thinking, how could I miss? that here's the beauty. Now, I said metaphorically carried in our bosom and on our shoulders, but in some sense, there's a literalness to this because when I go to the temple, I take that printed person's name and I put it over my heart. Right in my pocket. Yeah. And I'm literally carrying it back metaphorically in the temple to the presence of God, to the holy presence of God. Isaiah poetically, metaphorically, and to a certain extent, literally is opening our minds, opening our eyes to God's work on earth, which is, of course, the salvation of humankind.

Ross, didn't you say even the high priest has Israel on his chest and Israel on his shoulders? Yep, I love that. The book of Exodus teaches that the high priest has six on one stone here and six on the other of the House of Israel. then over his chest the breastplates got the 12 stones representing the house of Israel. Then beneath that, remember we talked about, that's the Yeram and Thumbum. That is the lights and perfections by which he will bring us back into the presence of God, which of course is the Lord Jesus Christ. I think I brought up that in the book of ether, how many stones are touched by the Lord,

16, how many stones are on high priest? 16, they bring us back to the presence of God. That was an example to me of slowing down, looking at parallelism, Jacob actually modeled for us how to do that. Fantastic. Oh, that's great. What is the word that equated with an ensign? The Hebrew word is nests.

The King James translators translated Ness in this case as standard, but it's usually translated as ensign. When he says, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentile, I set up my standard to the people. my hand is paralleled with my standard. My hand, I believe Jesus Christ, his power, his priested authority, the keys that are restored are then paralleled with the ensign of the latter days, to which people will gather. Where is he setting that up? He's not setting that up among the Jews. He's not setting that up among the lost tribes of Israel. He's setting it up among Gentiles. The Gentiles will be the platform, if you will, the jumping off point by which we then gather the rest of God's children.

Then we're going to carry them in our arms, put them upon our shoulders as nursing kings and nursing queens to the true ultimate nourishment, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. Perfect. That idea of carrying those names to the temple, I'll never forget that. That is great. I've had experiences in my life where I got to know well the person whose name I was carrying in, but 99% of the time, I don't know their backstory. I'd just love to slow it down and think every one of these names has a story, and every one of them is important to Heavenly Father,

and we got to carry them sort of on our shoulders. I love it. Thank you. Beautiful. Let's go. Isaiah chapter 44, verse 3. I know I'm doing two from Isaiah, but we're going to get to the Psalms. Isaiah 44-3, it's one verse, but it is so powerful. For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty and floods upon the dry ground. Already I love the imagery.

Like already I think this is powerful. Is this a barren desert? We're talking about a barren desert here. I just, Hank, want to point that out. Are you criticizing me? Is this a baron-d-d-d-d-d-dess? Is there, is it a be? No, I'm saying my poem had some deep, profound meaning to it. Okay. So I already love the imagery. Water being poured upon him that is thirsty. We've all been thirsty and we all know, man, how that feels. And then floods upon dry ground. It'll change the landscape. Notice the parallelism. I will pour my spirit upon thy seed and my blessings upon thine offspring. So if you don't slow down here, it's good. It's all good. But, when we slow down, we know that poured water is paralleled with floods.

Him that is thirsty is paralleled with dry ground. That sentence is then paralleled with the next sentence. So what Isaiah did, he created a parallel within that one sentence and then took that whole sentence and then parallel it with the next sentence. So follow. Pour my spirit is paralleled with my blessing. and thy seed is paralleled with thine offspring. Water and floods are equated with my spirit and my blessing.

Why are water and floods good symbols for my spirit and my blessing? I love that Jesus never said things like, I'm like gold or I'm like jewels or I'm like silver. I love that he would say things like, I'm like bread, or I'm like light, or I'm like water. We got a probe on Mars right now. What's it looking for? More than anything else.

Water. Because if there's water, there's life. That's right. That's beautiful. I love the idea that water can fill space. You can't contain it. It's tough. What does the Lord say?

Well, might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri River in its decreed course? Go ahead and try to stop this water. Not going to happen. Oh, that's great. I resonate with him that is thirsty. I was thirsty at one point in my life. I lived a wonderful life, but my spirit was thirsty. It wasn't quenched.

I was him that is thirsty. And to a certain degree, I was dry ground. I sought for to quench that thirst and looked at different things. There's other great places. But when I found the Book of Mormon, when I found the standard or the ensign, it was like literally he poured his spirit like water upon me and the flood was inside me. My dry ground was changed. The landscape changed with water and my spirit was quenched because he poured out upon me his spirit.

I resonate with this verse because I believe it's me and I think it's everyone to a certain degree. I think everyone has that. I want to go back to Joseph in the grove. I believe that Joseph Smith's story, to some degree, is everyone's story. Every one of us has to have that experience with God vertically. It is literally like, to a certain degree, and this is Jesus, of course, saying, I'm the water, I'm the true living water. All of us are thirsty. All of us are dry ground until he pours out his spirit upon us.

And he floods us with his blessing. That's all of us. That's great, Ross. Now, we all know Psalm 23. And Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd. Here are some symbols just from Psalm 23. I'd like John and Hank and anybody who's listening, think about what strikes them, what impacts them. Why did God use those symbols and which particular symbol would you highlight?

We've got shepherd, green pastures, still waters, paths of righteousness, the valley of the shadow of death, the rod and the staff of the Lord, a table, anointing with oil, and a cup running over. Pick one and tell me what is it about that symbol and why do you believe the Lord would have used that symbol? I love the idea of green pastures. When I try to envision the Holy Land, there's some places where it's pretty dry, but a green pasture is going to be cool, comforting. There's life. If it's green, it's full of life. I have memories of the smell of grass in Little League Baseball that it just, whenever I'm around the smell of grass or cut grass, it brings back such happy memories.

That's what I think of when I think of green pastures. Ross, when you said cup runneth over, I'm sure you both have had the moment where the gospel is working in your life and you're looking at your blessings and you're grateful for the commandments and the power to be obedient and to repent. You can't quite grasp it. You want to. You want to grasp it. You almost want to hold it and just be like, oh, it just seems to be overflowing. Feeling of it is also overflowing. I don't want this moment to pass, but then another moment passes and I get the same thing again.

Well, it's not all the time. I don't want anyone out there thinking, oh, what's wrong with me? We've all had our moments of trial and pain, but there are days where I just look around me and go, I can't express my feelings about this moment. Yeah, that's well said. And the line, he restores my soul. He is a restorer. When you've got a deficit, you've got a sin, you've got a darkness, he can put it all back. a great fun family exercise is to do what we just did. It's to say, hey, look at these beautiful symbols, which one impacts you?

Not looking for a right answer here. And why? You both have shared different things. I think it's so powerful. Anointing with oil for me, oil is like plenty. It's light. Acts chapter 10, verse 38 says Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost. John chapter 12, Mary anoints Jesus in token of his death and burial.

There's such powerful concepts with anointing. I've had some very spiritual experiences with the idea of being anointed. All of these different symbols can evoke so many different emotions and insights into God's plan. I've shared before that I had stage four cancer. when you have stage four cancer and you have tumors and you're experiencing paralysis and going through chemo, there is a certain valley of the shadow of death kind of thing. But he says, thou art with me, thy rod and my staff, they comfort me. And I can testify that that's true. Absolutely. It was an incredible experience. I like to say sometimes that my spirit never burned brighter than during that time,

even though my body was deteriorating and I was having very difficult times. Physically, I felt the promise that's contained in the Psalm 23 absolutely being fulfilled in my life. He did comfort me. He was with me, even though it was the valley of the shadow of death. Now, in my particular case, I was spared. I don't know totally why, but I was. And many people better than me weren't for God's calendar and God's reasoning. But I can testify that what he's saying here is true. The rod and the staff of the Lord, they will comfort you and he is with us. That is a lot of meaning for me. well. There's some wordplay. Here comes to the Hebrew in Isaiah chapter 5 verse 7. Isaiah 5, this is this little teeny allegory slash parable about the vineyard. One of his only parables.

I'm going to read verse 7 in Hebrew and I'm going to try to read it kind of slow so that you can pick up. What Isaiah does here is a little bit of wordplay with the way things sound. No, we'll read the English and then I'm going to talk about the wordplay. It says, Khi Harem adonai Tava'a'at-Jsa'aqa'uvae. A lot of it probably sounded like caching, but the English says, He looked for justice. The word justice in Hebrew is mishpatt. John and Hank, Mishpat.

Mishpat. John? Mishpant. But the word for bloodshed or oppression is Mispach. Okay, John and Hank, Mispach. Mis pach. Okay, good. All the listeners worldwide are like, this is awesome.

Okay. Mishpat is justice. Mispach is bloodshed or oppression. So he deliberately is doing this. Then he says, Vahine, he says, Mispach, he says, bloodshed oppression. Then Lis daca, righteousness,

that's what he wants, that's what he's looking for, Sedaqa, but instead, behold, Zsaaka. That is, in other words, this idea of an outcry, The idea of, we're saddened, right? He parallels justice with bloodshed and oppression and righteousness for an outcry.

This is what he's playing with, and he's doing it with wordplay. My question for you, why do you think he would do that? I can't tell you why right off, but I can tell you it because that's what they love to do. Because it's poetry. You hear those words because you think it's this, but it's this, but it's really close. That's the art. of it. It's baron and baron, right? Yeah, there you go. Wow. Here's the interesting thing too. It seems that in the ministry of the

Savior that oftentimes the Pharisees wanted to kind of talk to Jesus about technical legalisms that were immoral but technically correct. So for example, can we divorce a woman for any cause? technically by the law of Moses, you could. But Jesus doesn't want to play that game. Morally, it's incorrect. Technically, I've got this one word, Mishpat, which is justice, but it's really close to Mispach. What Isaiah is doing is, of course, the Savior speaking through Isaiah, foreshadowing what's going to happen in Jesus' ministry. You want to play this fine line, it sounds the same.

Can we divorce our wives for any cause? Have you guys ever thought about that question? You've got Jesus standing in front of you and you're going to ask them about some legalistic weirdness? Instead of saying, Lord, how can I be a better husband? Lord, teach me about how I can change so that my marriage rises up to the level you would have it. Instead, they're asking about technicalities. What Isaiah is doing is that line, the technical line between, how close these words are and how quickly we can devolve into from justice to oppression and from righteousness to sadness or an outcry. That's what's going on here in Isaiah chapter 5, verse 7. Again, parallelisms and wordplay. It's sad in a way that we don't hear that in English.

The English translators did the best they could. I think we all need to know there is stuff here. it's hidden that we might not see in English, although it's beautifully translated in English. This particular verse is super well translated. I would say like a plus. I also wanted you guys to notice that justice is paralleled with righteousness and bloodshed or oppression is paralleled with an outcry. Then Isaiah chapter 54, the Lord will say, thou shalt be established in righteousness. My counsel for every young couple that I interview who are going to get sealed is your marriage, your family, your household will be established in righteousness. Stay on the Lord's side of the line.

Be righteous and then you will be established. But if there's wickedness, if there's oppression, then there will be sadness and there will be an outcry. I think that's partly what Isaiah is saying here in Isaiah chapter 5, verse 7. Those parallels go both ways. There's a wordplay horizontally, then there's a parallelism between the two lines. That's the poetry. Mishpat and Mispach.

There you go. Beautiful. Well done, John. Mishpat justice. By the way, Mishpat is a very common word, but Mispach a little less so. When he says, I looked for Mishpat, but instead, behold, Mispach, that would have really, like, drawn them in in. because these two words are so similar, one a little less often used, then seddaka, which is used all the time, with sa'aka, which is the outcry.

So fun, so fun. That's the art, like you said. This is the poetry. So it's like, you didn't go to Penn State, you went to the State Penn, except that's English. That sounds like a Three Stooges joke a little bit there. I'm not sure. But I love that it's close, but it's all. Almost opposite, too.

It's exactly right. Part of the poetry. Sounds close, almost opposite in meaning. Sounds close, almost opposite. Again, maybe there's a technical thing. Isaiah might be teaching us like Lord with that whole marriage question with the Pharisees. You can slide from technical obedience that's actually immoral. Because somebody who divorces their wife for any cause,

they didn't squeeze the toothpaste from the right side of the tube as an idiot. Yeah. But I love what you're doing here, Ross. Because when I was a teenager and my seminary teacher said Isaiah was a poet, I thought, no, he isn't. I can't find any poems in here. He's writing poetry in a different way. Thank you for this. Yeah. They did use wordplay. Like we always want to say, well, it's parallelism, which it is, and it's imagery and symbolism, which it is. But Isaiah does use wordplay on purpose. It's kind of fun. And only the way Isaiah could. I mean, I don't even think the psalmist had quite

the expansive vocabulary that is contained in the book of Isaiah. Beautiful. Mishpat and Mispach. We'll never forget it. Good. I'm glad to hear it. Repetition. One of the most striking examples of repetition is Psalms 136.

In Psalms 136, the phrase, for his mercy endureth forever, occurs 26 times in 26 verses. Okay. Yeah, that's repetition by definition. That works. Here's the Hebrew. Ki leolam Khasdo. They translated

Ki Leolam Khasdo as for his mercy endureth forever. If you're looking at your King James, the word endureth is in italics, which means that it's been supplied by the King James translators to make the sentence smoother and make some other sense.

Ki leolam, he's saying for or because leolam for eternity, forever, everlastingly. And then the word here, Hasdo, is hesed. Hasdo is his, for everlastingly his mercy. I don't mind endureth there. That doesn't bother me too much. again, it's not specifically in the text, but I think you could justifiably use the word Leolam in this context everlastingly. And so in English, they're translating Chesed as mercy. His mercy endures forever. I think it's okay. The new English translation says, for his loyal love endures. They're trying to find

another word for Chesed there, and they're using loyal love. Instead of saying forever, they're saying endures to encapsulate the idea of Le Olam. I was reading the General Conference leadership session and President Nelson spoke about Psalms 136. It wasn't in general conference. It was in a leadership session. And he said, Chesed, and some of you know this, is a Hebrew word that has no complete equivalent in English. In the Old Testament, it is often translated as mercy as it is here. it refers to God's covenantal love, or the love God feels for his children, especially those who choose to make covenants with him and his beloved son. And then listen to this, I invite you, now he's talking to all the general authorities, to study the book of Psalms, especially Psalm 136, where Hecced,

translated in his mercy, appears in all 26 verses. Again, the repetition. Hecet is the principal reason the Lord instructed us to undertake the extreme, extremely difficult project of renovating the Salt Lake Temple. It is the reason he instructs us to build, preserve, and renew temples, so that God's covenant love, Hecced, can be offered to all who choose to qualify to enter his holy house. Each time a new temple is dedicated, numberless people on both sides of the bail may receive their essential ordinances and make covenants with God to qualify for more of God's covenantal love, Chesed. Each time a person chooses to be baptized and steps onto the covenant path,

He or she is connected to God in a special relationship with access to his covenantal love. Chesed. Because why? I'm now saying this. This isn't President Nelson. For his mercy, his loyal love, his covenantal love, endures forever. Isn't that beautiful? Psalm 136 is an example poetically of the idea of repetition and really pounding home this idea of Chesed.

This is fun to go. go through. I'm in my dad's scriptures and he underlined those endureth forever. So he saw that and it was like, oh, what's this all about? It's hard not to see that one in Psalms 1. Yeah, it's hard not to do it when it's in every verse that's right. I also think

I had not really seen what I just quoted to you from President Nelson, but I find it powerful that the prophet focused on Psalms 136, focused on this idea then talked extensively about it. What a beautiful

concept here. His mercy endures forever. His loyal love endures. His covenantal love is everlasting. It sounds like the Lord's in relentless pursuit of us. There you go, Elric Kieran. Thank you. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. His covenantal love. It is beautiful. And then I love First Nephi 17, where he says that he loves those that will have him to be their God. We willingly, voluntarily, without compulsion, choose God. I think this idea, he loves all his children, no question about it, but those that will have him to be their God that choose that, have that more expansive, more profound idea of what his Hecet will do for us.

Psalms 136 is a striking example of repetition. We don't think of that, John. Like you said, you might have read that as a 17-year-old middleland. That's not a poem. Well, that's a Hebrew poem. That kind of repetition. That's a Hebrew poem. The psalmist is purposely doing that, obviously, to teach us certain things, but that was their poetic way of doing it.

Yeah. Not rhyme in this case, not rhyme, but repetition. In other cases, not rhyme, parallelism. You're showing us all the ways that they could be classified a poem. deep symbol of shepherds and green pastures and still waters and cups running over and shadow of the valley of death. So deep images, rich images, we're like, well, is that poetry? It is Hebrew poetry. It's Hebrew poetry.

And the psalmist and Isaiah and Job and Ecclesiastes and Proverbs are all doing it in their own particular way. I'm focusing more on Isaiah and Psalms because those are paradigmatic ways that the, these guys are doing their Hebrew poetry. Well, I love it. We don't have to shy away from these. Here's President Nelson saying, go read this and go study this. Yeah.

I invite you to study the book of Psalms in general. Then he says, especially Psalm 136. I love it when they say things like that. I know, me too. Yeah. It makes it clear. It's so fun.

By the way, it's a very interesting activity if you took Psalm 136, just took your time, because the first part of every verse says something different than the end part says, for His mercy endureth forever. It's like the punchline at the end of every verse is His mercy endures forever. His mercy endures forever.

It's another version of the creation story because it starts out, like the waters, the great lights, the sun to rule the day, the moon stars to rule by night, but it's with the backdrop of all of this is because of his love for us. Not just, here's how he made the earth, or here's the order, here's why he did all this.

Again, that's a fun discussion to say, so what is the creation of the earth? Teach me about the character of Jesus Christ. Wow, that's a fun discussion. The psalmist is saying to us, look, he did the lights and the waters and all these things. Why? Because his covenantal love enduers for us.

I was reading in one of Stephen Covey's books, and he said that somebody had asked Albert Einstein once, if you could ask God anything, what would you ask him? And he said, well, I'd ask him how he created the universe. And they almost immediately changed his mind. It said, no, I would ask him why he created the universe, because then I would know the meaning of my life. You look at this chapter, and it's all about love and covenant to love with us, which supplies a why, doesn't it? Yeah, and That's great. President Monson was once asked, what would you ask Jesus if you were with him? And he said, I wouldn't ask him anything. I would listen. Brilliant. Probably wouldn't say a word. Brother Ross, this is great. We've done sound alike in Isaiah 5. We've done repetition as a poetic form in Psalms 136, which was amazing. What else have we got that's poetic poetry like? maybe not poetic like iambic pentameter of William Shakespeare, but poetic structure in terms of rhythm,

we have what's called a chiasmus. The fancy word is it's an inverted parallelism. That doesn't mean a lot to a lot of people, but the idea is you have a principle A, another principle B, another principle C, and then maybe D is the heart around which everything is focused, then it works itself out. So you'd have double D, both principles, then you'd have C prime, paralleling with C, B prime, paralleling with a B, A prime, paralleling with A. And that is a particular way to write. We don't write that way.

We have some simple forms. Old King Cole was a merry old soul, was a merry old soul, was he. That's A, B, B, A. A. A chasmus in Hebrew is much more complicated, and rich in that it's actually trying to teach us particular things. Very similar parallelism, but more of a complicated or deep way. It also seems to be a pneumonic device. Maybe perhaps literacy rates were low. And if you could memorize the first half, it was easier to memorize the second

half if it was structured chiastically. Some scholars think that the chasmus was set up as a demonic device, which I don't hate. I think it does provide some rich opportunity for learning. The famous chiasmus in Alma chapter 36 in the book of Mormon, which I think is astounding, by the way, is what's called an antithetical chiasmus, because the first part of the structure doesn't parallel harmoniously. It's antithetical. where Alma was seeking to destroy the Church of God, the parallel is he spent his life seeking people to bring to Christ. They're antithetical, their opposites, but they're still paralleled. Does that make sense? There's quite a few in the Old Testament. I'm going to just do two because I think they're really clean examples and then people can find others.

but these are fun. As a family or in a family scripture study setting, if you wanted to take some time and map it out and look at it and say, what do we learn from the parallels? This is really practical, also innovative and fun to do in your scripture study. The first one I'd like to look at is the famous one we've already looked at for symbolism, and that's Psalm 23. Psalm 23 is considered a pretty famous.

obviously one of the most famous Psalms, but also structured in a particular way. Now, we have to realize that our versification, the way we versify things in the scripture, if you have an ancient manuscript, it's not versified. It's not double columned with footnotes at the bottom. It's not anything like that. So let me lay out the structure of what I think's going on here in Psalm 23. First of all, you have the Lord as shepherd. That's verses one and two, kind of acting in that role as guiding, directing. I'll call that A. Principle B is he's going to give us guidance and provisions. That's verse three. Verse one and two, the Lord's acting as a shepherd. Verse three, I'm calling that B, is guidance and provision. Then we go into the dark valley,

the valley of the shadow of death. I'm calling that C. That's verse four. And I'm saying A, it's the first part of what we versified as verse four. So 4A is, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. Then D, which I'm saying is the center of the chasmus. This is the central point is you are with me, for thou art with me. That's 4B, if you're looking at verses. We've got the Lord as a shepherd. He's going to guide and provide.

even though we walk through dark valleys, whether it's the valley of the shadow of death, or it could be physical ailments or financial reversals or mental illness or whatever our struggle is, thou art with me. Then it works itself out. C, dark valley is then paralleled with protection from enemies, which I'm saying is verse 5, the first part, verse 5A. Then guidance and provision, I'm paralleling verse three is provision at the table. He's preparing a table before us in the presence of our enemies. He's doing that for us. And then A, working itself all the way out, is we dwell with the Lord forever, which is verse six, which parallels with God being our shepherd. The center of the chasmus is God is with us. Thou art with me. He is going to be my shepherd. He's going to guide. He's going to provide,

even in hard times, which is sea, dark valleys, and protection from enemies. He's going to provide for us a table and we'll be able to eventually dwell with the Lord forever. I believe there's a beautiful caustic structure there that teaches us about him, about his role. I love the center of it because I think that idea of God being with us, that's the name Emmanuel. That's what we are promised at the sacrament table, always have his spirit to be with. us. The Lord seems to be telling us over and over, you are not ever alone. I am with you for me is the most exciting part, the center of that. No, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. Just what we've been doing today, we worship God with our heart, might, mind, and strength.

I feel like, one, when we talk about structure, we're worshiping God with our mind. I really want to understand this. I truly want to understand this. But then we look in the, structure and try to feel and we're worshiping God with our heart. As you read that, I thought, man, I'm doing both here. I want to understand the structure and I'm trying to feel it. Like, this is how you get in the zone, scripture reading. Yeah. I want to be practical. So some family is reading in the Psalms and you've got some people there that are maybe like, I don't know what's going on here. You could get out a piece of paper and you could just say, hey, let me show you this structure. you could have some fun with that.

How does the verse that he's with us, like you said, John, why would that be at the center? Shouldn't death be at the center? You know, that's the horrible thing. That's not at the center. And what's God going to do? I mean, there's, like you say, we're going to understand the structure with our minds.

We're going to kind of get it, lay it out. But then we're going to start to feel and apply and figure it out and kind of get it deep in our hearts. If you stop with the structure, that wasn't the point. We do that sometimes in our eyes. We show people the structure. Right? We get so excited about it and we move on.

Yeah, we don't read it. I tell my class, don't get so excited about the form that you miss the message. The fact that Alma is talking to Heelman, Chiasmus doesn't just come out of your head that way. This was an amazing journal entry that he made somewhere on paper or plates or whatever. This was a lot of work to write that beautiful thing. That's what's fun to see when you find a chasmus in the book of Mormon. They were prepared speeches, King Benjamin as a couple. So we should appreciate the structure, but don't miss the message.

Yeah. The hidden in plain sight part of the scriptures is what's so exciting. And that's what we've been talking about today with this poetry. These are poetry in forms that may be hidden in plain sight if you think a poem is just a rhyme. If you look at everything we've done today on this podcast, we have gone slow. We looked at one verse or two verses. We've had to break them apart and think about them. Do the structure and then do the feeling part and do interrelated and connect it. But it's slow. It's not we're going to cover Jeremiah 1 through 45 today. We're not doing that. That's not how we're reading this. It's a little bit of a different mindset to study scripture this way. Especially perhaps in the Proverbs, it's easier to see parallelisms. One of the of the examples, the thoughts to keep in mind, Manuel gives a soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger. There's a nice parallel there. Even young people could see

that if you slow down, like you're saying. That's an antithetical parallelism. So the soft answer is paralleled with grievous words. That would be a fun example to say, look, you can have parallelisms that are trying to have you look carefully at the opposites, not the harmony. It's a different way the poet is trying to express their thought. But like you said, that one's graspable, right? And it had to be a fun word search activity. Go find some parallelisms in Proverbs, because they're all over there, I think, the little repeated thing. I'm going to repeat the same thought in some different words. The Isaiah ones can be a little more difficult, but they're there. And Psalms all over the place, obviously. So

Psalms seems to want to do imagery, symbolism, chiasmus, parallelisms. Psalms is invoking the whole thing. It's bringing it all together. I really like what Hank said earlier about it's like art. These aren't just words with content. When it's poetry, it's going to be words in an art form. That's what we're talking about. It wasn't just quickly writing down some stuff. They really thought about when they were writing and crafted it and worked on it. I think your point about Alma 36 is really good. Alma 36 is clearly thought out. Mosaic chapter 27 is more the extemporaneous version of what happened to Alma.

Yeah, that's the narrative. That's here's what happened. Yeah. Exactly. But Alma 36 is now I'm older. I've reflected. I'm going to teach Heelam in this. There are things that have to get across and structure.

and structurally I'm going to frame it so that it cannot be missed. Ross, tell us what the center of that chiasmus is in Alma 36. Jesus Christ. I remembered my father spoke concerning Jesus Christ. When I thought this, I could remember my pains no more. Boom. The pivot point of the entire chapter is Jesus Christ. Intentional.

Yeah, intentional. Psalm 23, for thou art with me. The center point is the Lord Jesus Christ. So good. Psalm 67 is actually one of the cleanest chiasmus to see. Psalm 67. Point A, verse 1, God's blessings. Verse 2.

Nations will know God's ways. That's what we're doing worldwide, trying to teach people God's ways, trying to live God's ways. Verse 3 is people praise God. You got verse one, God's blessings, verse two, the nations know or will know God's ways, and that then we will praise God. The center of the chiasmus, the nations will rejoice because God judges righteously. I want to talk about that. Then as it backs itself out, verse five, people praise God.

By the way, the wording is identical to verse three. That's why this one's so easy to see. verse three is going to parallel with verse five, verse four is the center. Verse six, Earth receives the blessings of God because the nations know God's ways, paralleling with verse two. Finally, verse seven, God's blessings spread to all nations, paralleling with verse one, God's blessings. So the center of this chiasmus is nations will rejoice because God judges righteously.

My question on this one would be, what is it about God's judgments? which oftentimes we think, I don't want God's judgments, but we rejoice in God judging. It's kind of a fun thing to think about, why would that be the center of that psalm? Can I go back to Isaiah 5? Yes.

For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the House of Israel and the men of Judah, his pleasant planet. He looked for judgment. I always tell my students, add righteous judgment. He looked for justice. He looked for perfect justice.

but behold oppression, change it to justice because there were a lot of bad judgments and injustices. Wouldn't you rejoice when you know that there's a God who judges righteously when you haven't seen a whole lot of that? I'd say that most of our lives, and especially when you have children, they're running around the house saying that's not fair. There must be something from premortality where in us woven into our spiritual DNA, we know that God is fair, God is just. Then when we come to mortality, we experience injustice, right? You're exactly on point, the Mishpat.

The justice we want is God's justice. Mosaic chapter 161, Abinidae says, everybody's going to confess thy judgments are just. No one's going to say it's not fair. No one. No one will be judged by God and say it's not fair. They might not love what the consequences were, but they're not going to accuse God of being unfair. The fact that nations rejoice because God is judging righteously is something that can be in mortality.

It can be very difficult to experience. President Oakes gave a talk at BYU years ago called Judge Not and Judging. It's helped me so much when he said that he felt that all the scriptures that say don't judge are talking. talking about final judgments, which we are forbidden to make, but there are intermediate judgments which we are commanded to make, but on righteous principles. We know that for God's judgment, we can say, you know, I don't have to make final judgments. I can say, that's beyond me. I have to make intermediate judgments. Those are where we need help. Here's Isaiah writing, I'm sure these people have seen the psalmist writing, injustice. It drives us crazy even when we're

old. It does. When we see injustice, that's what I saw there. Thou shall judge the people righteously. Oh, finally, a judge who is going to judge righteously. Do you remember in the Doctrine Covenants, the guy James Coval, who was the minister, 3940, where he says, I'll do whatever the Lord wants. I know that this is true. Then he gets this revelation, the doctrine covenants. Then he bails. Like the next day, wasn't it? Like the next day. I love to say to the students, so what do you think? It's like, that guy's going to hell. I was like, hey, we can't make final judgment.

And they're like, clearly he's going to hell, brother Baron. Clearly this guy is. And if you read section 40, verse 3, wherefore he broke my covenant. That's a fact. And it remaineth with me to do with him as seemeth me good. Leave it to me. That verse is. don't do what you're doing right now.

Yeah. Just stop. That remains with me. That is Psalm 67, verse 4. Notice on each side of verse 4, verses 3 and verse 5, the structure is the people will praise God. And the point is, as we come to the center, the pivot point, why are we praising God? Because he judges righteously. For it remaineth in me to do with him as it seemeth good, not you.

We've all experienced injustice. I think James Coval is an interesting example. We talked about him last year. He actually ended up having a good life. He became a good Methodist minister, did a lot of good. It was good. The Lord did with him as seemeth him good. I'm so glad you brought that up.

I'm going to hook that now to our discussion about making intermediate judgments and making final judgments. That's a perfect way to say it. The Lord says I got this. You got your own issues. go work. I will take care of this, so I love it. And I think it also relates, if I might, to John chapter 9, where there's the guy born blind. And in their minds, there's only two possibilities. He sinned or his parents sinned. Jesus is like, there's another dimension. There might even be

an infinity of dimensions about which you know nothing. One of the reasons this guy was born blind is because that the glory of God might be made manifest. And they were just probably going, we don't even know what that means. What our category is, James Coval broke the covenant, he's certainly going to hell. And the Lord's like, hold on, I'm going to make righteous judgment here. That should give us all great hope. He totally understands. He gets our particular situation.

He will be our judge. Mosiah 16-1. We're going to all say, thy judgments. are just, for which we will praise him. Psalm 67. Section 46 describes spiritual gifts, and there's one little point in verse 15, where it says that the Lord uses the phrase, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men, meaning all of that is taken into account by a perfect judge, the conditions, the teenage world, the world I grew up in as a teenager had no internet, no TikTok, no Instagram, no

Instagram. But a teenager today, those conditions are different and the Lord knows how to hold all of that in account. That's another one. He judges righteously. That's a reason to rejoice. That is such a good point. We'll make it the center of a chiasmas. We're going to highlight that point. It's such a good point because we don't experience, generally do not experience it in mortality. I think some of the greatest tragedies and some of the hardest things for certain people to believe in God, are the injustices that occur down here. The other part of this that I loved is the govern. If there's anything we've learned from the Old Testament,

it's that kings don't work. Actually, we want to have a king. When Jesus comes, I want him to run the whole thing. Perfect, judge. You be the Senate, the Supreme Court, and the press. You rule. Be every king, run every, make every law. There's going to be people, he wants to be king.

He does. Let him be king. It's like you said before, Hank, Saul started out great, ended up bad. David started out great, ended up bad. Solomon started great, ended up bad. And then the irony which we've talked about is they had a king. We want a king like other nations. You have a king.

You guys have both done quite a bit of traveling. If you see the oppression of corrupt government on people's lives, it is horrendous. It's interesting you bring that up. I don't know if you guys have ever gone into like a juvenile correction facility and taught. I went to a juvenile correction facility and I taught their Sunday school. The students, these kids who are, I guess, legally in this place, would file in. And the first thing they would do is they would write a hymn they wanted to sing on the chalkboard. We would spend 15 minutes singing and it brought a great spirit.

then we'd have this gospel discussion on a particular verse or whatever we were talking about. And I remember I left the first time when I was driving home and I was like, I felt the Holy Ghost. Holy Ghost was there. Then I went back and I was talking to these kids and I drove home and I thought, I would put all their parents in jail, let them all out. In other words, this is suiting God's judgment according to the conditions of the children's men. most of these young people had horrific unjust family situations, that you or I would have struggled massively in all likelihood would have ended up in the same situation. So, so sad. God will judge righteously. We can worship him, praise him, and all nations will because of that.

I hope we've had fun today looking at different ways to parse Hebrew poetry. I think John's something you said earlier is going to be super helpful. Just because it doesn't have rhyme doesn't mean it's not a poem. The fact that it has repetition in every single verse is a Hebrew way of saying, hey, by the way, this is a poem. We're going to teach you something differently this way, or a kiasmus, or parallelisms, or rich symbolism, and imagery.

Yeah. Beautiful. Russ, let's go slow. Sometimes as parents, we're like, why am I going to cover every psalm? How do I get through all of this? Oh, don't.

You're not going to. You're not going to cover all the Psalms, and that's okay. Tonight we're going to read Psalms 1 through 20. Don't do that. I mean, generally don't do that. Look, if you as a parent want to do that, you can do that.

But, man, take a psalm, find one, have some fun with it. Look at parallelisms. Look at some rich words. They will remember that always. Like, it's fun. It's good stuff. If you can create a bumper sticker, John, let's do it.

Yeah, if you can find a phrase that is refrigerator magnet, short type of phrase. It's great. So fun. For his mercy endureth forever. That's a good one. I love to call him a sermon in a sentence. And you can find a lot of those in the Psalms and in the Proverbs. It sounds like they're trying to be brief in some cases.

John, we only have one thoughts to keep in mind left. Oh, no. I know. That is a sad moment. Sad moment. And I need to keep more of them in my mind. That's the sad part. How are we going to keep them in mind if we don't do with these anymore?

Ross will be back one more time with prophets and prophecy as we begin, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel. It's going to be fun to hear his take on these. Well, thank you so much, Ross. I know you mocked my poem, but our Barron Desert has become green because Dr. Ross Barron has shed some living water all over it. In the manual, here's the very last paragraph under Wisdom Literature, just the last sentence. You might think of Wisdom Literature as thoughtful conversations with inspired mentors who want to share observations about God in the world he created and maybe help you understand these things a little better than before. That's what we're going for. That's right. To quote the center of one of the chasmus verses we did tonight,

may God be with you. Best wish ever. He's with us. Well, thank you for joining us, everyone, on thoughts to keep in mind with Dr. Ross, and thank you. Ross, we just love having you, and I've learned so much.

I've got all my notes. I'm ready to insert these in my scriptures. You don't have to read fast. You can read slow. Enjoy it. That's how you read poetry. So we'll see you next time on another episode of Follow Him. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners,

we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.com, that's followhim.co, to download your free copy today, and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our Follow Him family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible. incredible production crew.

David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kubuica, Sidney Smith, and Annabelle Sorensen. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.