Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Voices of the Restoration #9 • Spiritual Manifestations and the Kirtland Temple • Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat • Sept 29-Oct 5 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to follow him. Today, we're doing one of our voices of the restoration episodes, which means we have one of our favorites, Dr. Garrett-Dirkmont, with us today. Hank, I love the title of this, Spiritual Manifestations and the Curtland Temple. What comes to mind when we read that title? Well, first of all, we love having Garrett here. We love it. You and I light up. when Garrett sits down in the studio. John, I've spent some time at the Kirtland Temple, as have both of you. You sit outside and you just look at it.

You start to, I don't know if you've both ever done this, but you try to envision this building surrounded by dirt roads, these saints, these impoverished saints, and here they are building this. And it's massive to them. To us, it's, you know, well, well, it doesn't look like our temples. this must have been one of the small temples

this was a mini temple the fact that it's still there I'm sure both of you have done the inside tour where you go downstairs and you look at the foundation and you go how is this thing still standing you walk in there is a feeling there and even before the church bought it I had that same wonderful feeling

walking through that temple feeling of the spirit of those people. I'm excited today to learn from Garrett and bring it more to life. Bring them to life. As you go now that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now has custody of it, they're always very anxious to thank the community of Christ for taking good care of it. I'll tell you the same thing, Hank. I used to go there before our church acquired it. I felt the same way. Just thinking of what happened there. Wasn't it one of the largest buildings in all of Ohio at the time that it was built? I'm just excited to hear from Garrett about this. Garrett, what have you

got for us on this building? Where do you start on the Kirtland Temple? I mean, talking about this is the pinnacle event for the church up to this point. You have so many people that will talk about their experiences, not just in the sacrifice, in the building of it, and the paying money towards it, but the manifestations that take place surrounding both before and after its dedication. I mean, we have people having powerful spiritual experiences surrounding the temple years after the dedication. In the time when the saints are being driven from Curtin, you have people that are having spiritual manifestations and miraculous visions leading up to the building of the temple. And then, of course, you have them in the dedication itself. As far as a marvelous

building, I mean, there really is almost nothing else like it. I don't want to demean the Navu Temple and be like, no, that was nothing. Let's just talk about Gertlet or the Salt Lake Town. I mean, there were spiritual manifestations at many of the early temples that were dedicated. But boy, the Kirtland Temple, almost seems like this conduit to the other side, to our father's kingdom, that the heavens almost can't be restrained in the veil being separated and angels appearing, people speaking in tongues, singing in tongues, people seeing illuminations, people seeing visions, the Savior appearing. obviously we know of some of the other great visions that Joseph has there, it is an incredibly remarkable place where if you had to pick somewhere that you could go and say, where could I go where there have been more spiritual manifestations than any other place we know of, it would be the Kirtland Temple and wherever Wilford Woodruff is that night.

he's got angels visiting him all day wherever Wilford Woodruff is probably also there's another vision but for the Kirtland Temple it is an incredibly holy place connected to the kingdom of heaven and you almost get this sense that however many

millennia that people are waiting for these keys to be restored to the earth this anticipation is driving some of the spiritual manifestations that happen there. When we think of the backstory as we talked about this year, that the Lord was so anxious to get them to build it and had to remind them again to go build the temple. Boy, when they got done, then you see, okay, yeah, I could see why we needed to do this. What was the thing that he said, you're walking in darkness at noon day? because you haven't built this.

It seems like you're so anxious to send these manifestations. One of the things that I just love is that so many different people saw things. I don't know how many were there at the dedication. When you're there, it doesn't seem like you could cram as many people in there. But what do they say? How many were sitting in there? They claim that it's 900 to 1,000, which they then say, which is as many as could comfortably be.

now. We have very different definitions. Also, I don't camp. I mean, those are the two. It would seem almost impossible to shove that many people inside. What Joseph reports in his journal is that there's over 500 people standing outside waiting to get in before they start. So they go show up in the morning, there's 500 people outside. It's like Hank Smith's giving a fireside. People are lined up. They're ready to be a part of this sacred experience. They're turning people away. They will tell the people that can't fit in to the spot that they're going to go over to the schoolhouse and they're going to have their own meeting, their own meeting during the dedication. Obviously, they're not piping in with a video monitor.

the things that are going on, well, there are so many people that the schoolhouse is overflowed. So the overflow overflows, and people can't even get into the secondary meeting that isn't even in the temple, that isn't even a part of the dedication. That kind of reflects just the desire of these saints to be a part of what they all feel to be an incredible experience. Speaking of all these manifestations, I thought I'd share with you something from someone who's not a member of the church.

I figure that's the best way to start. We have all of these great, powerful, spiritual experiences. Let's talk about someone who hates the church. I feel like that's what you guys have come to expect from me. The reason why I share it is certainly some of the experiences that happen at the Kirtland Temple, people talk about later. You don't have a journal from every participant at the Kirtland Temple dedication. In fact, you have a journal from almost nobody,

because like me, they are keeping a journal. Many of the statements you get are after the fact. They are people reflecting back and talking about what they experience. That will sometimes allow critics or antagonists to say, well, I mean, sure, they later said they saw an angel, but how come I don't have a notarized copy of their journal from the day it happened that said they saw one? The argument for proof of these miraculous manifestations is ordering on the preposterous, especially because we're talking about angels. I mean, you almost want to say to someone like that. So let me get this straight. If I did have a journal entry from the day when someone said they saw an angel, then you just believe it? Well, of course. Oh, okay. So actually

it's nothing to do with when they said it. It's just an argument that's made. There's an interesting letter that is sent by a guy named Lucius Parsons. He writes a letter on April 10th, 1836. So you have March 27th. You have this initial meeting. You then have a follow-wit meeting. You then have a follow what meeting, you have multiple meetings, you have meetings that are just for the quorum of the 12 and the 70, you have multiple meetings associated with this kind of more than week-long dedication process. This is right after that, April 10th, 1836, riding to Pamelia, his sister, talking to her about this. Now, he's writing from Kirtland. This is not how the letter starts. He talks about all kinds of things like, hey, how is this person?

person doing. We've got someone who did this. Then he gets to the Latter-day Saints. Do you know anything about the Mormons? If not, I will inform you a little about them. They are a sect who believe the book of Mormon is part of the Bible. It's tough when someone else is doing your theology, right? It's part of the Bible. Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, we believe it works hand in hand with the Bible, but yeah, okay. They're a sect that believe the book of Mormon is part of the Bible. The author and proprietor of which is Joseph Smith Jr. who is their prophet and seer. They have lately had what they term a solemn assembly. This was at the completion of the lower story of the temple, which is finished in a very singular order, having four pulpits on each end of the house and curtains between

each, also curtains dividing the house in the center. They have had wonderful manifestations there of late behind the curtains. This was in the night. Their meeting was held for several nights in succession. None but the prophets and elders were admitted. That's not true. The number of prophets now amounts to 12. So we're talking about the quorum of the 12 there. Some can see angels and others cannot. They report that the Savior appeared personally with angels and endowed the elders with power to work miracles. And likewise, the temple was lighted without candles. Here is a letter written literally from the time period

by someone who does not believe in the church and is actually quite antagonistic. He is saying, they are saying Jesus has appeared to them. They are saying multiple angels have appeared to them. They're saying that they've received power from God. they're saying that these manifestations have gone on when someone will later say oh well yeah i mean they just later said that angels appeared oh really someone should have told this guy not to write his sister and lie to her about the fact that they were saying that jesus had appeared to him then

so it is an interesting source that it's actually well known in the community what types of manifestations are going on in these different dedicatory services I love the fact that it's not just Joseph Smith that so many after the first vision were shared visions and now there's many, many people that are talking about things that they've seen there in the temple. So that even the man you just quoted would write about it and get some things right. It is one of the more singular aspects of our faith that we are not simply claiming that Joseph Smith had a powerful spiritual experience and that he was inspired by God. We are certainly claiming that. But he has multiple shared visionary experiences,

miraculous experiences that are not with him alone. In the Kirtland Temple, some of the greatest manifestations are the coming of not only the Savior, but of Moses and Elias and Elijah coming and restoring keys. And that is not just to Joseph Smith. Oliver Cowdery is a witness and a participant in this miraculous experience where these keys are delivered. Even if someone wants to be a detractor to Joseph and say, well, I'm sure Joseph thought that he had, vision, but of course he didn't because God doesn't really exist. Well, what do you say about all of the other people? Sure, you can blithely say, well, I just think they're all lying about it. Okay, but you're talking about a lot of people. You're not talking about four people or three

people. In the case of the manifestations of the Kirtland Temple dedication, you're talking dozens into the hundreds of people who see, feel, or experience something miraculous in the course of those dedications. Of course, you can dismiss it and say, I don't think so, but all you're doing is providing your opinion because you don't have any way to demonstrate that those things didn't happen. You don't have other evidence of them later in life saying, yeah, I never really saw an angel. You're just saying what you want to believe. And what you want to believe is that those miracles didn't happen. Because if they happen, well, then I've got to deal with this. What does it mean if, in fact, Jesus appeared to people multiple times in the course of several

weeks at the Curtland Temple? What does it mean if multiple angels appear? What does it mean if, in fact, cloven tongues of fire like the day of Pentecost rests down on people in that meeting? and that people speak and sing and prophesy in unknown tongues, what does it mean? Because you have to ask this question, well, is this really true? So it's much easier to simply try to say, well, none of those things actually happened. Then you don't have to ask the question of whether or not it's true. But you don't have a historical basis for making the argument that the participants involved didn't believe spiritual manifestations out. Yeah. Yeah. That's crucial. You can say, I don't think it happened, but you can't say they didn't think it happened.

It would be historically erroneous to make a claim that the participants didn't think it happened. You would make the same argument about the New Testament. I mean, look, Jesus's followers are certain that he walked on water. That doesn't prove that Jesus walked on water. But it certainly proves that they believed he. did, you have to take that belief that they have seriously. You can still say, well, I don't think so. When it comes to the Kirtland Temple manifestations, there are so many of them. They are so similar in their details, though varied in their types of sources. Some are early, some are late, some are even from non-members. Some are people providing great details. There are so many sources, it becomes impossible for someone to say, oh, yeah, nothing special happened there. You can say that, sure, all those people are wrong. But boy, they're all wrong about the same type of thing, I guess. They're all claiming the same type of manifestations. They're all claiming

the same type of spiritual experiences. John, it reminds me of the blind man in John chapter nine. Do you remember? He says, whether he's a sinner or not, I know not. Here's what I know. I was blind. Now I see. No one can say, no, you don't really believe that. He's like, yeah, yeah, I believe that. I was there. Yeah. Beginning of the Come Follow Me manual says, this is under voices of the restoration, spiritual manifestations in the Kirtland Temple. This is not in the hard copy, but it is in the online copy. Below are the words of Latter-day Saints who were in the Kirtland Temple during its dedication and in other meetings that followed. Many compared their experiences to what the ancient saints experienced when they

were endued with power from on high on the day of Pentecost. This is Eliza Arsneau. The ceremonies of that dedication may be rehearsed, but no mortal language can describe the heavenly manifestations of that memorable day. Angels appear to some, while a sense of divine presence was realized by all present, and each heart was filled with joy inexpressible and full of glory. Yeah, she's lying. She's just making it up. You can tell she doesn't really believe it. It's interesting that at the dedication, when they first entered the temple, it starts with Sidney Rigdon reading some of the Psalms. These scriptures connected to the temple, we will quote them today as well when we're talking about the temple. One of them is Psalms chapter 24. That's how he

opens this meeting, is reading Psalms 24, and that's, the earth is the lords and the fullness thereof, the world and they that dwell therein. For he that hath founded upon the seas and established upon the floods, who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord, or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart, who hath not lifted up his soul into vanity nor sworn deceitfully, he shall receive the blessing of the Lord and the righteousness from the God of His salvation. That's what's on the mind as the initial statement of the people about to begin this meeting that this is a holy place, the people who are going to ascend the hill of the Lord, clean hands, pure heart, unified in their worship. I would love to get to both

of you, your thoughts on just the idea of why a temple. I don't feel like the Christian world as a whole is thinking, well, there was just that one temple. But this restoration, all of a sudden, it's so much about the temple and building more temples. The other day, I was reading the April 6th, the 1930 conference report. As one does. As one is the walk to do on a Saturday. Yeah. Because for another reason I was looking at it, but B.H. Roberts gets up. He says to the congregation in the tabernacle, we have seven temples in the land round and about. He imagines the next 100 years, 2030, which hasn't hit yet, and says to the tabernacle, imagine the day when there will be a hundred temples. And you can imagine the gasping. What? A hundred temples. Look at where we're

at now. So I'm just curious, what is this emphasis on temples in the restaurant? and why don't we see that anywhere else? That's a deep question. It actually is one of the points of contention, of course, for other mainstream Christians as they view Latter-day Saints. It's not just because, oh, the lights on the temple are so bright when they're building it in my community. It actually strikes at the heart of Protestant theology.

For Protestants, they are making the arguments that know, saving ordinances exist. Salvation has legitimately nothing to do with any of your works. Salvation only comes by faith. They're going to have an argument among themselves about how that faith comes. Is that faith something that's given to you purely is the gift from God? God decides whether or not you have faith and therefore decides whether or not you're safe. Or do all of us have the capacity to choose to have that faith, therefore we get saved because we choose to have that faith. But in either case, there is no essential ordinance. One of the radicalisms of Latter-day Saint theology, and we talked about this before, that when Joseph is given the authority by John

the Baptist and is baptized, and they teach Samuel Smith this, He can't accept it because the Protestant world for 300 years at that point has been teaching and drilling over and over and over again. So, you know, 300 years longer than the United States has existed as a country has stated over and over and over again, there is no essential ordinance for salvation. The only thing that matters is faith. then Joseph, before there even is a church, in 1829, is taught that there are essential ordinances, and there is essential authority and keys connected to those ordinances. It is very difficult. If you were to ask a Christian, why are the apostles still going to the temple?

We know they are from Acts. So why are they still going to the temple after Jesus? and after Jesus has been resurrected, if temples are meaningless. And there's not really a very good answer for that. It usually ranges on, well, it was tradition, or they were going there to preach the true Jesus. That's why they went there. They weren't really going there to worship. It is a singular aspect of Latter-day Saint theology.

What's really interesting is that you referenced earlier, John, that they were slow to build this. They've got a lot of problems. nobody has any money everyone's left everywhere that they lived so that they can move there they moved into kirtland which becomes this hotbed of anti-mormon sentiment people are deliberately doing everything they can to break down the church they form a committee in kirtland called the anti-mormon committee which is paying apostates to go collect negative affidavits about joseph smith in the book of mormon there is a lot of opposition When they first receive the revelation to build a house of the Lord, they clearly don't even know why.

They at first think that it's going to be a schoolhouse, that it's going to be where the school of the prophets is going to meet. And I'm sure they were like, well, it seems like Noel K. Whitney's store is fine. Man. Sure we could spend thousands and thousands of hours of, of life. labor and tens of thousands of dollars building it or what do we just keep meeting here in new k whitney's store i mean this seems fine they don't fully comprehend what it's important until the lord does chastise them the idea that there are essential authorities essential ordinances and essential keys is just so far outside

of the Christian culture, that when these things are presented, it takes them some time to have some education to understand it. You're asking them to change everything that they thought. I mean, now some of them have already okay. I've embraced what is otherwise a Catholic doctrine that you have to be baptized in order to be saved. I don't like it, but okay, that's the book of Mormon says, what Joseph says. But that's just the tip of the iceberg of the ordinances that are going to be revealed. And I think that the temple is essential for that. It's essential for the restoration of these keys. I mean, look, obviously God can do whatever God wants to do. Could he have given Joseph keys without a temple? Of course he could have. But the fact that they get these

keys after the entire community without really understanding why have sacrificed their money and their time and their reputation, their hours and their labor, that that is where those keys are going to be restored and that's where the full understanding of these ordinances is going to start to be laid out. They will perform some of these early temple ordinances in the Kirtland Temple, even though it's built very differently than the Navu Temple. They will perform washings and anointings in there, not yet understanding that there's another part to the endowment. It is certainly separate from the rest of the Christian world and one of their points of contention, because what God reveals to Joseph Smith is,

that everyone is eventually going to be redeemed from hellfire because we all kept our first estate and our premortal life, which is also revealed to Joseph Smith, that because we're all God's children, eventually we'll all end up in a kingdom of glory. But the church doesn't exist to save people from hellfire. That's already going to happen. The church exists. The church exist to bring to pass the immortality, the eternal life, the exaltation of mankind. These things that are revealed are explaining not, how do I not burn in hell forever? Because we're already beyond not burning in hell forever, because that doesn't exist. These further ordinances are revealed to say, how do I become like my Heavenly Father?

What are the steps, what are the decisions beyond baptism that I need to take? What are the covenants that I make to obtain exaltation? Two things. One from what Garrett said, we build a temple today. We all know what's going to happen and what its purpose is and what faith. We don't even pick up a shovel. But here they are sacrificing and spending money they don't have in this effort, not knowing. I think that's beautiful.

John, if you remember last year, one of the most difficult books, maybe the most difficult book in the Bible to understand, definitely in the New Testament, is the book of Hebrews, where it talks about Melchizedic and a temple. Dr. Matt Gray walked us through the book of Hebrews. It's kind of a slog because he said, okay, you have to understand this. You have to understand this. Every verse had some context to it. But by the end, John, you come out convinced.

that there needs to be a second, third temple, that we had an erronic priesthood temple, but we had yet to have a Melchazidic priesthood temple. So I would encourage anyone who is more interested in what Garrett's talking about here in John's question. Go back to that episode. We can link it in the show notes. It's a tough one. John, do you remember he walked us through verse by verse saying, now you got to go back to the Old Testament to understand that verse. You've got to go back to the Old Testament to understand that verse. But by the end, it was a beautiful thing to have that increased testimony of why we need temples, because I don't know about you both, but I definitely heard on my mission and elsewhere,

Christ tore the veil. There is no need for a temple anymore. And then comes the book of Hebrews that says, no, no, no, it's a different temple that's coming. Garrett, that was so well put. Christian churches had existed to save us from hellfire, but we learn that we're already going to kingdoms of glory from Section 76. This exists to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. That is great insight. Thank you for that. The sacrifice goes into building this Curtland Temple.

Then it's like, well, actually, we're going to build another one for an even greater purpose. There's ironic and then there's, well, actually, we're going to go build another one now that's going to be different. And isn't that one of the questions that you both have heard? at the Curtland Temple. Now, did they do endowments here? Do you get that question? All the time. The other question is, do you think the church is going to turn it into a real temple? No. One, it's a historical marker. Yeah, it's a historical landmark. Yeah, and you don't want to say it's not a real temple. What happened there, as Garrett just said, oh my goodness, pick another place on earth where

things like this have happened. It's Curtlandt, wherever Wilford Woodruff was. I like that. I remember. Truman Madsen saying Wilfred Woodruff never really knew what side of the veil he was on. He would walk up to people apparently and say, I haven't seen your father since he died. Since he died. He was like, what? Neither have I. As we look at these different quotations in the manual spiritual manifestations and the Kirtland Temple, this Sylvia Cutler-Web, I had never heard this before, but she said one of my earliest recollections was the dedication of the temple, my father took us up on his lap

and told us why we were going and what it meant to dedicate a house to God and although so very young at the time I clearly remember the occasion I can look back through the lapse of years and see as I saw then Joseph the prophet standing with his hands raised toward heaven his face

ashy pale the tears running down his cheeks as he spoke on that memorable day almost all seemed to be in tears. I mean, boy, that paints a picture. Back to Sylvia Cutler Webb. The house was so crowded that children were mostly sitting on older people's laps. My sister sat on fathers, I on my mother's lap. I can even remember the dresses we wore. My mind was too young at that time to grasp the full significance of it all, but as time passed, it dawned more and more upon me. And I'm very

grateful that I was privileged to be there. Sounds like an amazing. meeting. I know that you both had experiences where you remember exactly where you were and what you were wearing. When you have a significant spiritual experience, it burns it into your memory like that. Yeah, it's a beautiful rendition of what it was like through the eyes of a child to see that. You know, and she acknowledges, well, I didn't really know it was going on at the time. I remember the feeling. I was there for it. I saw it. That's great. After Sylvia Cutler Webb, We have a statement from Oliver Cowdery. Hank, would you like to read that one?

Yeah, he says, in the evening, I met with the officers of the church in the Lord's house. The spirit was poured out. I saw the glory of God like a great cloud come down and rest upon the house and fill the same like a mighty rushing wind. I also saw cloven tongues like as a fire rest upon many while they spake with other tongues and prophesy. Wow. what do you think of when you think of clove and tongues just like a flame because a flame looks like a yeah i i don't know a flicker yeah somehow there seems to be this physical sight that they aren't just experiencing people speaking in tongues which they certainly are but that they are seeing

physically the manifestation of these tongues of course they're using the language of acts talking about the day of Pentecost. We don't really have a better description than what Oliver is giving that there's a physical manifestation of this outpouring. There's another, there's a Benjamin Brown, Garrett, I know you wanted to talk about that one. Yeah, this experience he has, this is excerpted from a larger explanation that he has. Unfortunately, the document is not complete. It's one of those that's damaged and torn and parts of it are missing. You know, as a historian, And you're like, oh, no, where's the rest of it? Because it was really good.

I want to know what the rest of that sentence says. But he says here, many visions were seen. One saw a pill or a cloud rest down upon the house. Bright is when the sun shines on a cloud like as gold. Two others saw three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands and also a bright chain in their hands. this other manifestation, but the larger source, some of this is coming from a letter that Benjamin Brown's writing to his wife. Now, again, a lot of it's missing. So, unfortunately, it'll sound like me texting my wife, missing words everywhere, but dear wife, I last night heard

from you, which I thank the Lord. And then it cuts off. There's a bunch missing here. Rejoice in the Lord. Rejoice. Let your moderation be known. something something and then it says now to let you know a few of the thousand great things that god is passing in this place let me tell you just a few it's almost like uh i can't write a hundredth part yeah now to let you know a few of the thousand great things that god is passing in this place there has been no mobs as you've heard but the work of the lord is increasing daily. There have been from 1 to 10 baptized every day this week. Some of the elders have been out for a few days. Some have baptized 16, some five. Some elders still continue to come in and wash

an anoint for the solemn assembly, which will be called next Sunday, and for tithing. A sacrifice with fasting and prayer in the house of the Lord from 8 o'clock in the morning until 4 in the afternoon. And then some of it's missing, but many marvelous things transpired, even greater than at the day of Pentecost. They are increasing in faith and expiating greater endowment. It's expected that there is 300 of something in prayer with one accord as at Jerusalem. Many visions are given and also revelations by night and by day. Some have already come to pass. Many have not yet, but soon will. I was present when Father Smith blessed a man who lived in Niagara County, who was in a straight, whether to go home on business or just

stay at the solemn assembly. The old patriarch said, you want to go home, but the Lord will give you a sign between this and the morning. The man asked the Lord for a sign about two hours after as he came out of the house to go to the meeting. There appeared a light over the house of the Lord and extended from east to west, but that part of the heavens over his house or home was dark. And he said, it is enough. Some have seen the heavens open and have seen the Savior. Others have seen angels on the four corners of the house of the Lord with drawn swords and also stood thick on the ridge. Elijah with his chariot of fire, Peter, John, and James, and the highway cast up, and the ten tribes returning in the chariots as far as the eye could see. Some saw the

redemption of Zion, and other things, unfortunately, cut off here. It goes on to say, Old Father Adam was seen. Beautiful man. His hair stood thick and curled most beautiful, even down to his shoulders. Don't tell BYU that. Sunday evening, after Joseph spoke, opened and told them the day of Pentecost was continued. The brother began to prophesy. Many prophecies in the name of the Lord. They began speaking in tongues and it filled as it were the whole house. Perhaps there were 40 speaking at once. Cloven tongues of fire were seen to sit on many of them on hand and was seen laid upon when he spoke in tongues. Many visions seen. One saw a pillow or cloud rest upon the house, bright as the sun shines on the

cloud like gold. Two others saw three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their This is what we read from the manual. I did not intend this for a letter, but this morning while waiting, he concluded to start for him, so he's going to add this. So then he's also one of the people who will talk about on this Sunday morning meeting of this miracle, the child in the temple. The order of the house of the Lord was there were no small children admitted. One woman, however, not knowing the order, brought her child almost two months old.

She stood outside of the door for a long time and manifested an anxious desire to enter. At length, one of the elders said, brethren, we need to exercise faith. My faith is this child will not cry a word in the house today. On this, the woman and the child entered, and the child did not cry a word from eight until four in the afternoon. Which, okay, that's already a bigger miracle than the angels. Can that guy come to my house 10 years ago, please? Suddenly, oh, there were angels there? No, there was a baby that didn't cry for eight hours.

It's interesting. But when the saints all shouted Hosanna, the child was nursing, but let go and shouted also when the saints paused. It paused. And when they shouted, it shouted for three times. When they shouted amen, the baby shouted also three times. and then return to nursing without any along. That's another miraculous experience. He's got a ton of them in here.

He gives us some of our best information about some of the miracles there. On the Pentecost evening, the west end of the house was illuminated by a light from heaven, seen on the outside by many. Brother Benjamin Lewis laid hands on a boy that had his arm broken.

He placed the bones, wrapped a rag around, it. His wife poured on some vinegar, and then he asked the boy to move his fingers, and the boy did. This was at noon. The next morning, the boy went out to pulling weeds in the garden with that hand and had no more trouble about it. They're talking about miraculous healings that are going on as well as the miraculous manifestations. There is another discussion that he talks about. Father Stevens saw on Sunday evening two rows of angels throughout the house. At another time, the glory of God came down on the elders from the head down halfway.

Then, pushing it forward a couple of days into March 29th, he says an angel was seen over the elders. Many prophecies were given and speaking in tongues. On the 29th of March, two quorums continued all night in the house. Now, this is the case. They get together, the corums, elders, the 70s, they get together. their plan is to stay all night for a spiritual manifestation. Eventually, Joseph and the first presidency, they retire because they've been up basically for three days straight with all of these meetings. So it's the quorum of the 12 that are there, and they experience this. The corns continued

all night in the house, and the 12 guarded it. The heavens were open, and two saw the Savior. some saw chariots and other things one lay about a half hour and saw from eternity to eternity there were many miraculous experiences and many visions told one of the people that has one of these visions is george a smith will be an apostle obviously he's a young young man at this point his family has only been converted for a few years he says that at the temple he has a vision of the millennium that while he's there, he sees what it will be like in the millennium when the lamb lays down with the lion and peace is brought to the world. There are just so many of these incredible manifestations that are going on, miracles that are

occurring, it has to feel to these people like the heavens have absolutely been open in this these dedicated court proceedings. As I had been thinking about talking over this today, I kept thinking of the words that Lord is extending the saints' understanding, restoring his judges, and all is at first. And then this part, the visions and blessings of old are returning. Angels are coming to visit the earth. Why not? If this is the way God works, why not?

It may sound audacious to some, but if it happened on Pentecost, in Acts, why not here? And it did. and it's part of the sign of the true church it's funny because you'll actually have people say things like well i mean how come we don't have angels appearing like what we do we have giant records of angels appear when someone says oh we don't have miracles like they used to have in christ church well only because you're not looking in the right place we have dozens and dozens and dozens of sources of people having miraculous experiences with either visions or miracles or visitations from heavenly messengers from the unseen world. They are powerful manifestations that this

is God's church in the last days. I mean, this has been a culminating event. When did Maroni appear to Joseph Smith, 1823? This is one of the first things he says, Elijah will come. It's been 13 years. everybody's been waiting for this both on earth and heaven it's interesting because when joseph is dictating his history by then most of that's going to be in 1838 and 1839 that early portion of what's now in jose smith history in your pro great price at that point he has a better understanding of how essential elijah is i don't know what joseph knew about elijah when Maroni first came down and told him, I mean,

Joseph might have recognized the passages from the Bible that he's being quoted, but it's one of the things that Joseph remembers. In fact, Joseph says, he said lots of things that I can't rehearse. I don't know if that means I don't remember them, if he's like any one of my students,

if I go on along soliloquy. I mean, I know he talked a lot about stuff, and that's what they write in their essay. but Joseph remembers that he quotes Malachi Joseph remembers the promise of Elijah that is something that keeps coming up it comes up when Joseph is with the expansion

that happens to doctrine covenant section 27 that Elijah is going to come multiple times Joseph is teaching it and then of course we talk about the manifestation surrounding the dedication of the Kirkland Temple I mean the ones that Joseph has are not just signs and wonders. The ones that Joseph has

restore keys to the earth that are essential for the building up of the kingdom of God on earth. It's very fitting that in the 1870s, when Brigham Young Tass, Orson Pratt,

to beef up the doctrine and covenants, to go get these teachings of Joseph that are so powerful, like Joseph's letter that he writes in Liberty Jail, and to include portions of them in the scriptures because they are revelations from God that the one Pratt decides to start with is the words of the angel to Joseph Smith in Section 2. Section 1 is the revelatory introduction to the book, so that's always going to be Section 1.

But Section 2, the words that they start with are Maronai promising, a lot of is going to come. Then having the miraculous experience of Elijah actually coming with Doctrine and Covenant Section 110, then carrying through that that coming is transformative of our understanding of exaltation. Those visitations are the most important. The Lord appearing to Joseph and Oliver, Moses and Elijah restoring the keys that are essential, for the kingdom of God in the last days and they're going to change how we understand our relationship to God and how we understand our relationship to each other.

Some of these things Joseph has an insight in, but other things it hasn't been revealed to him yet. The restoration of those keys helps him receive the further revelation of the ordinances that are going to be necessary for exaltation. I love that we're talking about this now and thinking about, would you please get started on the temple? Those revelations, they're all up there waiting. Would you guys hurry up because we are so excited to bring all this stuff? I'm curious what you guys think about, the Benjamin Brown statement,

three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands. Wow. Sure kind of seems like it might be Peter James. and John. And he does reference them actually in the earlier part of his statement. He says, he says them out of order. He says, Peter, John, and James, James is getting the short shrift all of a sudden. Yeah. We do have one other statement to the Apostle Peter appearing, and that comes from Truman Angel, who says that Joseph identified the angel that comes in and sits down next to Frederick G. Williams during the prayer as Peter. Now, the problem is we have multiple comments on that.

Some say that it's actually the Savior. Some say that it's an unnamed angel, and then you have Truman Angel. There's a lot of angels involved. It's not really the best name for this purpose, saying that it's Peter. You actually have these two separate sources of Benjamin Brown and Truman Angel, both in some way saying that the Apostle, Peter, was there. Since most of these angels aren't named, and we know that angels are resurrected beings or these just spirits, they're all people associated with this earth. It would make sense that the holders of keys and previous dispensations might be allowed to be present for the unfolding of keys in this one. Yeah, and I love how many Old Testament names we've been mentioning, too,

not just New Testament names, like what Maroni talked about, those Old Testament names. Maybe they're counting the angels in the thousands, because the angels have like balcony seating. Yeah, that makes sense. The angels, they fit on the seat a lot easier. They're all in their perfect body state. There's no Willard Richards among them. Don't worry. I'll sit up here right by the ceiling. So chronologically, the dedicatory prayer is Section 109. That's March 27, 1836. When Joseph and Oliver see the Savior, that's April 3rd, 1836, is all of those days in between? Is it all just the day of dedication? It sounds like it's ongoing stuff.

It's ongoing. There are multiple meetings held for different people throughout the different days. They're going to have another meeting because they couldn't fit everybody in. So they're going to have these two dedicatory meetings. But then they're also going to have in between that multiple meetings. of different quorums of priesthood people in the temple itself as well. Part of the reason why you get different descriptions of the accounts of these meetings is it's multiple meetings.

What someone sees in their meeting of the 70s in their meeting may not be the same thing that they saw in the second dedication meeting that someone else was in. It is a week of Pentecost, basically, where you just keep having meeting after meeting after meeting. You get a good account of this in Joseph's Journal. Joseph's Journal will cover at least a significant portion of those events that we've talked about, including the dedicatory prayer, which of course is Section 109. Joseph explains that they're going to have another meeting because they couldn't fit enough people in, and everyone wants to be a part of it. It actually kind of reminds me of the similar situation that Brigham Young is in when everybody wants to get

their endowments in the Navu temple before they leave. Everyone wants in it. And Brigham's like, look, we've got to get out. Violence is coming. We've got to go. He's moved by compassion to the fact that they so desperately want their temple covenants. The saints in Kirtland, the saints in Navu surrounding the temples, man, what an inspiration they are to me. I wish that I was so desperate to be in the temple that I'm lined up outside of it hours before it opens. I wish that I was so desperate that I was petitioning to try to get in another time begging them. I mean, the temple president is locking up and you're like, please. Come on, is there any way?

Just one more session. And it's an inspiration to me that people who didn't fully know what the purpose of this sacred building was were so desperate to be a part of it. To me, it indicted myself a little bit where because of continuing revelation, I have far more knowledge about what the purpose of temples are than they did in 1836. because it hadn't been revealed yet, and they're walking by faith, that eventually they'll understand. I mean, God had them build a building that cost more than $60,000. People contributed thousands of dollars. I mean, five, six, seven, eight years worth of salary to the building of this temple.

They don't even really know why. they just know God commanded it by revelation. One of the things I often reflect on when we study these early saints is, boy, we always want a reason. The very first question we ask when a prophet asks us to do anything

is, well, why? Why are we doing it that way instead of this way? They don't seem to be asking. They have developed the kind of faith that we all eventually need to have. That is, I either belong to the kingdom of God on earth or I don't. And if I do, what am I talking about? Oh, I need to have an explanation for why the church is doing it that way.

Well, God rarely provides explanations. You'll notice he didn't give one to Abraham. He didn't say, let me tell you what I'm going to do. you're going to go up as if you are going to sacrifice Isaac. You're not actually going to do it because I'm going to stop you right before. So you need to go through this. It's going to be performative. You're going to get right up there, but don't worry.

Got a ram in the thicket. We're ready to go. No, you just need to go do this. Abraham could have offered every kind of objection that existed. He could have said, but God, you're the one who told me we're not supposed to kill. You're the one who had me flee from my father, who was trying to sacrifice me.

You are the one that told me this is wrong. And instead, Abraham goes up the mountain. I know that that's difficult. I get it. I read a lot. Understanding things and sources matter a lot to me. I want to know why things happen. But to borrow a phrase from our Christian friends,

at some point you need to just let go and let God. At some point, you have to be willing to say, I don't follow a prophet simply because I understand, and it's a really good, thank you for your wise advice that you're giving. You're right, that does seem like that would work out well for me, that you follow a prophet because he has the keys that were restored to Joseph Smith, in that Kirtland Temple, and only one person holds those keys. President Nelson holds the keys that were restored by Moses, Elias, Elijah, Peter, James, and John, John the Baptist, and call the role.

He holds those keys. They haven't been given to anyone else, nor would they be given to anyone else. we should move on section 109 is the dedicatory prayer now April 3rd 1836 we get section 110 do you want to take it from there Garrett yeah where they're having these in-between meetings they have this overnight meeting from jose's journal he talks about he left the meeting because he had to get ready for this next dedication that they were going to do in his journal it says that it was expedient for me in the presidency to retire. Having spent the night previous in waiting upon the Lord in his temple and having to attend to another dedication on the morrow, or conclude the one commenced on the last Sabbath for the benefit of those of my

brethren and sisters who could not get into the house on the former occasion, but that it was expedient for the brethren to tarry all night and worship before the Lord in his house. I left the meeting in the charge of the 12 and retired about 9 o'clock in the evening. and the brethren continued exhorting, prophesying, and speaking in tongues until five o'clock in the morning. The Savior made his appearance to some, while angels ministered to others, and it was a Pentecost and an endowment indeed. Long to be remembered, for the sound shall go forth from this place into all the world, and the occurrences of this day shall be handed down upon the pages of sacred history to all generations as the day of Pentecost. So shall this day be numbered and celebrated as the year of Jubilee

and a time of rejoicing to the saints of the most I got. You can feel almost the emotion and the excitement and how heaven has finally connected with them. All during this time, Joseph still has the concerns of the world, one of the journal entries in between these days, is a conversation that Joseph has with Lehman Copley of Doctrine and Covenant Section 49 fame. If you remember, Lehman Copley, he is the one who consecrates, in air quotes, is land to the church, says he's going to consecrate it to the church, wants to lead a missionary group. by revelation to go preach to the shakers that were his former compatriots in the religion, when that mission fails and he loses his faith, he orders all of the saints living on his property, all the Colesville saints, to leave his property and is in a rough spot over the course of time. Well, how rough, Joseph has just taken Dr. Philastus Hurlbutt to trial for

for him publicly declaring that he would wash his hands in the blood of Joseph Smith, threatening to wound, beat, or kill him, according to the court records. One of the people that testified on Philastus Hurlbutts side, Lehman Copley, Joseph on April 1st, 1836, so in between these two meetings, he meets with Lehman Copley. He says that he had many brethren called to see him, some on temporal, some on spiritual business, among them was Lehman Copley,

who testified against me in a suit I brought against Dr. Phyllasks Hurlbutt for threatening my life. He confessed that he bore a false testimony against me in that suit and goes on to apologize for that and was convinced that he was wrong and he humbly confessed it and he asked my forgiveness which was readily granted

he wished he could be received into the church again by baptism and it was received according to his desire and he gave me his confession in writing in the midst of all of these religious experiences going on you have Joseph Smith, the prophet, ever always, desperately willing to extend mercy. Almost to a fault sometimes. From my perspective, yeah, because I already know what's going to happen.

I already know when these people, like, this isn't the only time he portrays you, Joseph. It's coming again in two years. But yeah, he's so desperate. to bring people back into the kingdom, to have people have their sins forgiven, to re-baptize people. I mean, can you imagine going to the trial? And here's this person who once received a revelation in his name, who is standing there with this twice excommunicated fornicator who has threatened to murder Joseph and Joseph's family. And Lehman Copley's on the other side, supporting him.

And then he comes to Joseph and says, my bad, sorry about that. I mean, I'm sure he was quite penitent. Man, Joseph doesn't say, you know what? Okay, I appreciate that you say that you're sorry. Tell you what? Let's see how things go over the next couple of years. And if you maintain being a faithful brother

and not lying under oath about me, then okay, we'll get you rebaptized. Nope. Just comes back, says I'm sorry, and Joseph says, well, let's get you baptized right now. His demonstration of the Savior's love for sinners is part of the reason why you know that people who claim he is some kind of evil charlatan, they are. obviously wrong. His personality is that he loves people, even people, who have been vile, lying enemies of him. The second that they're willing to repent, he grabs a hold of them and he carries them along. I share that because that happens on April 1st. It's just after that

two days later, that Joseph has one of the greatest miraculous manifestations of this entire dispensation. The mindset of Joseph in interacting with Lehman Copley that way, it's a reflection at least of how close he is to the Savior. Two days later, on Sunday, April 3rd, they are meeting in the Lord's house. again there's a thousand people that are present they've dropped the veils they've already done the service this is where joseph recounts what is now doctrine and covenant section 110 the veil was taken from their mind the eyes of their understanding were open and they saw the lord standing on the breastwork of the pulpit before them and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold in color like amber His eyes were a flame of fire.

The hair of his head was like pure snow. His counten shone above the brightness of the sun. And his voice was as the rushing of great waters. Even the voice of Jehovah saying, I am the first and the last. I am he who liveth. I am he who is slain. I am your advocate with the father. Behold, your sins are forgiven you.

I always think about his exchange with. Lehman Copley right before he has the Lord declared to him that his sins are forgiven. And always calls to mind, King Benjamin, are we not all beggars? Every one of us at some point in our life, many times in your life, if you happen to be some of us, will be on your knees begging God to forgive you. begging God to overlook your stupid, sinful nature to give you the repentance promise through the atonement. Boy, Joseph Smith, he really seems to understand that. It's a part of who he is. And of course, in the remainder of this revelation there talking to coming to Section 110,

those additional keys are given that it is a power. powerful, powerful manifestation not only of the Savior Jesus Christ, but his connection to these previous prophets, you'd mentioned earlier, John, the fact that people are saying they see Adam at the temple. One of the things that is clear in Latter-day Saint theology is it's not a stark separation between the prophets of the Old Testament and the prophets of the New Testament that, well, that was the old way and this is the new way. but in fact there is one gospel that's the gospel of Jesus Christ to Adam and it's the gospel of Jesus Christ to Malachi it's the gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament and it's the gospel of Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith those keys are restored and transformed and even then Joseph doesn't fully comprehend them I don't think he learns line up online and precept upon precept it's also in the temple. I know that you'll cover this later, but it's also in the temple that Joseph's going to have another vision of the celestial kingdom. And in that vision is going to see things that he can't explain, like his brother Alvin being in the celestial kingdom. There, he will have revealed to him the truth that even those who weren't baptized into the kingdom in this life can be

heirs of the celestial kingdom. Yet God won't describe how. He will just simply teach what appears to be a contradiction. You absolutely have to be baptized to go to the celestial kingdom. Alvin is in the celestial kingdom and he wasn't baptized. There's no explanation. Not for another four years until Joseph is taught by revelation the doctrine of baptisms for the dead, even in Joseph's life. Joseph is forced to walk by faith. Joseph could have said, nope, God, that doesn't make any sense. You're the one who said that you have to be baptized in order to go to the celestial kingdom. There's no possible way Alvin can be in the special kingdom because he wasn't. Joseph pushes forward in faith that at some point that apparent contradiction will make sense. That's all it ever was.

It was only ever an apparent contradiction until God revealed more and you realized that it wasn't. I was reading in Carl Anderson's book about the Savior in Kirtland. There's a quotation of Orson Pratt here that I loved. It sounds like he's talking about Section 110. He said, Then you see that even this one revelation, which God gave in that temple, paid the people for the toil they had endured in erecting it.

What a satisfaction it was to them to know that angels administered in that temple. What a satisfaction it was for them, to go into that temple and have the heavens open to them so that they could gaze on the glory of God. What a satisfaction it was for them to know that the Lord accepted as his own, the house which they had built, according to the pattern which he had given, and what a satisfaction it was for them to know that they loved God by keeping His commandments. This was a huge sacrifice.

What a satisfaction now that, wow, look what happened. He came, he accepted it as his own. Do you think any of them expected what they got? Yeah. It seems like no. They knew it was important, but I don't think anyone fully understood how crucial it was to the unfolding of the kingdom of God. You know, in hindsight, you look back and you're grumbling about putting some spackle on the side of the temple before the dedication. but 20 years later you're looking back and you're saying, wow, the fact that I was a part of that,

I think that's maybe a good application for our lives. I mean, we don't fully know God's will for us in our lives. We don't know where we're going to be 10 years from now or what experiences we're going to have. Even more the reason why we need to stay as close as we possibly can to the prophet as he outlines God's will for us. It's why we need to stay close to our Heavenly Father through prayer and apply the atonement in our life. We don't know what tomorrow holds,

but we know that the gospel will still be the gospel. Well, Garrett, thank you. Makes me want to go back to Curtland again and just sit there. The next time we have you on, it's not at Curtland Temple, it's Liberty Jail. Yeah. can you give us a preview of things to come a little bit of a change you are moving me from the highest of highs of angelic visitations and keys restored to the earth to the horrors associated with the violence in missouri and of course jose's own personal suffering that takes place in liberty jail we'll talk about it and over the course of the course of the next several episodes I'm sure that things will start to unfold a little bit.

Unfortunately, there's not a super happy ending. You'd think after all of these spiritual manifestations, that everybody comes out of the Kirtland Temple dedication, all of us have been there where you've really felt the spirit. And in that moment, you're just like, I'm going to start going to the temple every day. If I get up early enough, I can go every day, I've got to start reading my scriptures two hours.

You start having, in your, your mind, you're just like, I want to be closer to God than I am as you're feeling the spirit, as the spirit testifies to you. That's what all these people coming out should have experienced. Over the course of the next year and a half, two years, things are going to fall apart in Curtland and in a big way. There's multiple things that happen. The biggest in Kirtland is the collapse of the Kirtland Safety Society. Banking is nothing like it is in the United States today. And banking was actually very unregulated because of actions taken by President Andrew Jackson. In order to try to provide capital for the Saints, because it was very difficult

for them to get loans from the locals in Kirtland because they were so opposed to Latter-day Saints coming there, they decide that they're going to try to create their own bank. It's called the Curtland Safety Society. People buy stock into it. People pay money into it as this idea that we're going to capitalize this bank. It'll be a place for someone to borrow money because these non-Latter-day Saints, they refuse to deal with us or at least deal honestly with us. That bank collapses for lots of reasons. The simple explanation on it doesn't really exist, but it is a time of great financial instability in the United States. Hundreds of banks all over the United States closed in 1837. It's called the panic of 1837. But for Latter-day Saints, many of them, it is an

incredible trial because they lose all of their money when the bank collapses. Not only if they lost all their money, the land that they own is worth almost nothing on top of that. They're financially devastated by the panic of 1837 and by the collapse of the Curtin Safety society, many people apostatize, including members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Some of those same men in that meeting that went all night, that saw the Savior, that saw angels, that felt the cloven tongues of fire, some of those same men, when their bank accounts are drained, when they no longer have any money, they apostatize. Luke and Lyman Johnson, John Boynton. These are men who were original members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

who've had all kinds of miraculous experiences. On top of this apostasy from Curtin, you have a growing problem of apostasy in Missouri. It's almost simultaneous. There was a church presidency set up in Missouri. There's nothing really you can compare it to today because they're dealing with the fact that it takes more than a month to communicate with Missouri at all. It's a thousand miles away. Let's say you've got a real question in Missouri. I've got a big question. Joseph, what are we supposed to do about this? At best, four weeks later, Joseph gets that letter. And if he's in town, and he gets it immediately, and he answers it, and writes it back, and he sends it immediately back, your best case scenario is two months after you asked your most pressing

question. Like, we need to know right now, Joseph, you got an answer back. Of course, in those two months, the situation on the ground has completely changed. To be fair, that is like texting John, by the way. It's very similar to like texting John. Seven, eight months from now, he texts back. Sounds good. Yeah. You've got this communication. separation. And it's going to lead to problems because people on the ground in Missouri, they're dealing with the fact that the Saints were driven out of Jackson County. They all had property there that they didn't get to sell. They were driven out by people with guns. There's a bunch of poor people without land that are all there under the Missouri Presidency's

charge. That's David Whitmer and WW Phelps. They want to take the practical step of selling the lands down in Jackson County. Because at this point, members of the mob who stole the land, they know they're on pretty precarious ground. I mean, they don't have the deed. How are they going to resell it? They can't get a deed because the deeds owned by Latter-day Saints. They start making offers to sell, you're not getting your land back, you're ever coming back to Jackson County. Tell you what I'm going to do for you. What have I paid you, I don't know, half, a third of what that land's worth, but at least

you got something at them. And you signed the deed over to me, but at least you get something. The Missouri Church Presidency is going to ask Joseph, who's, of course, going to ask the Lord. And the response is absolutely not. That land is the land of Zion. You are not to sell any of it. the Missouri church presidency proceeds to start selling it. But now what do you do?

You have a direct command from God through the prophet to not sell the land, and David Whitmer selling the land. It's going to be a problem. In late 1837 and early 1838, you also have high-profile apostasy's or excommunications from most of the witnesses that are still living. All three of the three witnesses, Oliver Cowdery is married into the Whitmer family. When David Whitmer and John Whitmer are brought up on charges before the church,

the Whitmer's are a super tight-knit family. When one of them goes, they all go. Just like they all came into the church together, they all go out of the church together. The only Whitmer's who aren't excommunicated from the eight witnesses are the ones who've already passed away. Christian Whitmer and Peter Whitmer Jr. They've already died by this time. And Hiram Page, who also is married into the Whitmer family. He's married to David Whitmer's other sister. He also apostatizes. If you're a member of the church in early 1838, you have seen not just a mass apostasy of your rank and file members, you have. You have seen multiple apostles apostatize.

William McClellan, like I said, Lyman and Luke Johnson, John Boynton. You have also seen all of the Whitmer witnesses and the three witnesses themselves. Martin Harris will also apostatize during this time. So Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, all going out of the church at roughly the same time. it is a real catastrophe for the church. You have this, the highest of highs, and then you're brought to these lowest of lows. That's before the extermination order and the Mormon War in Missouri. That's the internal problems that people have.

This is a little too autobiographical, so I apologize. I always think back to my great, great, great grandmother, who is John Boyne, Wilmington's sister, Olive Bolton. She's married to Jonathan Harriman Hill. Jonathan Harriman Hale goes on a mission with

Wilford Woodruff to the Fox Islands. In fact, when he goes, it's during a time of some apostasy and some of the people tell him that you won't baptize a single person on your mission. When they finally do find someone to baptize, Wilford Woodruff says he specifically

has Jonathan Hale baptize him because he wanted to prove all those dissenters in Kirtland to be false prophets. So it's a very Wilford-Woodruff thing to do. Like, oh, they said that you'd never baptist. Well, here you are. Yes, they're wrong. But imagine that. Her brother is a member of the quorum of the 12 apostles.

And he apostatizes. And my great-great-grandmother doesn't. she doesn't fall her brother out of the church her and her husband stay faithful and they move with the church and they stay with the church and even after Joseph is murdered they don't join any of these other apostate sex they follow Brigham Young and go to Utah

well they try to they die in the attempt in winter quarters their little kids cross the planes themselves I'm descended from those little kids who crossed the plains without their mother or their father because Olive Boynton stayed true to the faith. Not because she didn't lose any money in the Curtin Safety Society or because she didn't witness apostasies all around her, but because she had a testimony rooted in the spirit. It's a good warning for all of us that if there's anything,

thing that's more important to you than the gospel of Jesus Christ, you better believe that that's what's going to be coming for you to try and test your faith. We have to make it the most important. We can't rest our testimony. I mean, what would happen today if three, four, five apostles all publicly apostatized today and started giving press conferences about how the church is fallen and it no longer is led by a proff. How many people would apostatize? That's what's going on in early Kirtland. And then in Missouri, Joseph isn't thrown into liberty jail solely because of dissenters when the conflict of Missouri begins with the violence enacted against the saints. And at one point, it is extended to people trying to prevent Latter-day Saints from voting

in a local election, and it leads to a fistfight, a brawl, spiraling out from there, you will end up eventually with the extermination order, the horrific Hans Mill Massacre, the betrayal and arrest of Joseph Smith and many other church leaders, and their imprisonment in Richmond and then Liberty Jail, where they certainly will suffer themselves, but far more poignantly, are inundated with accounts both from members and from the vile perpetrators of the horrors being enacted upon the Latter-day Saints, of the beatings, of the murders, of the assaults, of the desecrations of bodies, it's in those moments that Joseph is going to

write the Saints from Liberty Jail, and that becomes Section 121, 122, and 123. It's not fun to talk about, but important to learn. Yeah, I imagine I won't be my normal chipper self next time, maybe a little more agitated as we talk about it. Because these are our people. Yeah. Yeah. And when you read the horrific things that happen to these people, it is a very difficult

thing to maintain your cool. I mean, there's a reason why Joseph writes that the deeds that are committed would cause the devil himself to palsy. Joseph's view of the horrors that are being inflicted are so terrible that they're beyond what even he thinks Satan could imagine. That is a level of horror and devastation. And again, people apostatize there. in Missouri. But many people stay true to the faith. And in fact, some of the people who suffer the most in Missouri are walking across the plains to Salt Lake. And a great example that our faith does not have to be and shouldn't be defined on what our trials are like in this mortal life. That you can believe even when everything possibly that could go

wrong goes wrong you can still believe and in fact hopefully still believe and trust in the fact that everything will be made right in the next life your losses will be made up to you yeah all your losses will be made up to you i'm reminded of what robert millet talks about high mountain low valley experiences like moses sees god moses chapter one and satan shows up jesus hears the voice of the father when he's baptized. And then, hey, if you be the son of God, throw yourself off here. Here you've got Kirtland and then descended to what you just described there. For me, I'm just thinking, Joseph, he can do nothing because he's in a prison. And hearing of those reports, you'd feel so helpless not to be able to do anything. Those sections that come out of there are just

amazing, too. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. I love these. voices of the Restoration episodes because I get so inspired by these people. It causes a little bit of introspection, like you said, Garrett, all of a sudden, okay, I'm going to the temple every day. It's so inspired by these saints of the restoration. Thank you for your time today. For those of you who would like to listen to Garrett on his own podcast, it's called Standard of Truth. Thank you for joining us, and we'll look forward to having you again on Follow Him. Thank you.