followHIM - 2 Nephi 20-25 Part 2 • Dr. Camille F. Olson • Mar 4 - Mar 10 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Dr. Camille Fronk Olson examines Nephi’s deep connection to the words of Isaiah and his understanding of the coming Messiah and its relevance to contemporary times.Show Notes: https://followhim.co/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/BM-10-Dr.-Camille-Fronk-Olson-2-Nephi-20-25-followHIM-Podcast-SHOW-NOTES.pdfYouTube: https://youtu.be/bMtxVyQAtWMInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYFree PDF download of quotes from our New Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-newtestament-book/Free PDF download of quotes from our Old Testament episodes:https://followhim.co/product/finding-jesus-christ-in-the-old-testament/00:00 Part II–Dr. Camille Fronk Olson00:07 Babylon as type of the destruction of the Second Coming01: Why leave Bountiful?03:33 Dr. Olson shares a story about a student’s question06:47 Elder Robert D. Hales shares a story about spiritually pedaling07:51 2 Nephi 24:1-3 The downfall of Lucifer11:46 2 Nephi 24:4-11 Isaiah sends a prophetic letter13:29 2 Nephi 24:12 Meaning of the name Lucifer15:17 2 Nephi 24:20-24 Satan won’t have a body and Assyria won’t prevail16:46 2 Nephi 24:23, 32 The Lord founded Zion17:12 2 Nephi 24:1-8 Why Nephi teaches Isaiah23:25 2 Nephi 24:9 Pride and warnings from the Lord25:40 2 Nephi 24:12-13 Jesus will be crucified and resurrected26:21 2 Nephi 24:14-16 The Scattering and Gathering30:01 2 Nephi 25 Nephi’s sources31:16 2 Nephi 25:17-19 His name shall be Jesus Christ32:53 2 Nephi 25:20-24 Nephi writes to bear testimony of Jesus37:00 2 Nephi 25:24-26 The Law of Moses and Jesus Christ41:31 Dr. Olson shares a story about teaching grace to Evangelical Christians44:21 “What is so Amazing about Grace?” by Camille Fronk Olson49:29 John shares a story about speaking with Robert Millet and Greg Johnson51:49 What is required for exaltation?55:57 Emily Watts and Laundry Nirvana58:49 Dependence on Christ and Dr. Olson’s testimony of Jesus and the Book of Mormon01:06:10 End of Part II– Dr. Camille Fronk OlsonThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. Camille Franck-Olson, 2 Nephi chapters 20 through 25. Camille, I like what you've done. This idea, the very first line, the destruction of Babylon is a type of the destruction of the second coming. And we saw that same thing in 2 Nephi 20. The destruction of Assyria is a type of the destruction of the second coming. And like Isaiah does so often, a current event becomes as well a foreshadowing of a coming event. And helpful to know what that history was, that current event from their time, so that we know what we're dealing with.

It talks about the day of the Lord, and we might think that's one singular day, but there are many different days of the Lord and they're a day of judgment. There's a day of judgment on Babylon. And it's also sounds like it's talking about a day of the Lord in the latter days, in the second coming type context. Yeah, that is true. I think I brought this up in the book of Revelation just before Babylon or the great building

falls. Revelation, just before Babylon or the great building falls, there's a great verse where the Lord actually speaks to the people in the building. Revelation 18, 4. I heard a voice come out of heaven. So here's Babylon or the great and spacious building or Satan's kingdom, and it's about to fall. And the Lord says, come out of her, my people, that you be not partaker of her sins and receive not of her plagues. Camille, maybe that's something I can take is don't have a home in Babylon because it's coming down. Didn't we bid thee farewell already? Oh, Babylon, oh, Babylon. Right.

We bid thee farewell. I was thinking when we were recording our last one, Hank, that we're supposed to leave Babylon. And sadly, we see some people leaving bountiful. We've got these great and terrific blessings. Why would you leave bountiful? Let me find that great Elder Maxwell quote. You would think there'd be more to do in such a spacious building, like maybe a bowling alley. Like a bowling alley. But the activity of choice is to go to the windows and point. And I love that Minerva Teichert painting of the great and spacious building, the Lehigh Stream. It's hanging in the Joseph Smith building at BYU. It's really close to the

path, one. Most of the paintings you see, it's so far away. You kind of see this in a distance, but right there, you can see the whites of their eyes in the great and spacious building. I mean, I think the mocking, it's real personal. But then you look and you can see sky through the window. It's like a facade. You think it's on air and when Minerva painted it, it's just the facade. The facade, it tells you the only thing they know how to do is mock. And they get other people there and then what do they do? Turn around and their only activity is, yeah, mocking those at the tree. If you read 1 Nephi 8, there's a place where Lehi says they were mocking at those who were

partaking of the fruit of the tree. And then later it says they were pointing their fingers at me and those who are partaking of the tree. And I thought, whoa, see, there'll come a time when it gets personal. That's why I like that painting. It's really unique that way because it all feels so close. If you could have the tree of the fruit of life, most sweet, most delicious, why would you have stale Twinkies in the vending machines of the great and spacious building?

I had a student at BYU in a freshman Book of Mormon class. We were talking about Lehi's dream, and we got to the passage where there were those that made it to the tree of life and had actually partaken of it, but then became ashamed as they watched people in the great and spacious building. One student raised her hand and she said, perhaps they were ashamed because they thought they don't deserve the Lord's love. It is a very different one. I've never forgotten it. I've never forgotten

it. You think the adversary works in so many different ways that would lead someone to think, I don't deserve him. And we talk about pride here in these chapters, where we think, I don't need him. It's flipped. That's a different side. And I think, oh, how much he is saying, come, come without money and without price. Come. That tree is available to everyone. We have lots of people listening who may be in that kind of a place right now i love that in elma 33 16 when they're quoting zenith and xenon it says thou art angry oh lord with this people because they will not understand thy mercies it's not they cannot they will not no i that can't apply to me i'm too messed up and it's like no actually you've got to understand his mercies and how complete they are.

I like that. By definition, mercy is something you don't deserve. The moment you deserve it, it's not mercy by definition, right? Yeah. Elder Maxwell said, I have this in my margin of chapter 23. Let us once and for all establish our residence in Zion and give up the summer cottage in Babylon. I love the tree, but every once in a while I go visit the building. I think it goes back to what we saw in chapter 20, a hypocritical nation.

There's one thing about going through the motions as a disciple of Christ, and another thing as far as keeping that foot in Babylon and saying, ooh, but the way I behave, the way I dress, the way I speak, I don't want people to think that I'm not just like them. And we get ashamed of our residence in Zion and trying to keep that summer home in Babylon flourishing. He calls it a hypocritical nation. Let me share something.

It's impressive how thoroughly and completely the glorious city of Babylon is not only conquered, but leveled to the dust, leaving hardly a trace that it ever even existed. Elder LeGrand Richards remarked that when Howard W. Hunter and Spencer W. Kimball came back from the Holy Land after Christmas of 1961, LeGrand Richards asked Brother Hunter if he saw Babylon. He said, well, I saw what was left of it. That's it. And Isaiah prophesied that, that that would be the case. I think that's important. Before we leave chapter 23, I wanted to tell you both a quick story from Elder Robert D. Hales. This is the July 2002 insight. When I was a boy, I used to ride my bicycle home for basketball practice at night. I would connect a small pear-shaped generator to my bicycle tire. Then as I pedaled, the tire would turn a tiny rotor,

which produced electricity and emitted a single welcome beam of light. It was a simple but effective mechanism, but I had to pedal to make it work. I learned quickly that if I stopped pedaling my bicycle, the light would go out. I also learned that when I was anxiously engaged in pedaling, the light would become brighter and the darkness learned that when I was anxiously engaged in peddling, the light would become brighter and the darkness in front of me would be dispelled. Some people ask, why do I have to go to sacrament meeting? Why do I have to live the word of wisdom, pay tithing? Why can't I have one foot in Babylon? May I tell you why? Because spiritual peddling takes both feet. That is great. It's like you cannot serve God and mammon.

Spiritual peddling takes both feet. All right. Chapter 24, the chapter heading, Israel shall be gathered and shall enjoy millennial reign and Lucifer is cast out of heaven. You get a little bit at the beginning here of this gathering, which is a very important part of it, but most of the chapter is the downfall of Lucifer. The type of him is the king of Babylon. So that's how Isaiah is taking, again, something, and that would be very important to Nephi, I think, as he would know who would be familiar with the king of Babylon when they left Jerusalem.

Stories would have been spreading all around about him. When verse 1, For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land, and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. There's a lot in that one verse. But you get this not only gathering together of all of Israel, the 12 tribes, but you also have strangers who were gathered to them.

And I ask, who could those strangers be? I think of Gentiles, converts. I think of Ephesians in the New Testament, chapter 2, where he says, because of Jesus Christ, there are no more foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens of the kingdom of God. This is so much bigger than ever Israel was in Old Testament times. This is from every nation and people on the earth. And look at the wording here in verse 2. And the people shall take them and bring them to their place.

These strangers are welcomed in. We are all one. Yea, from far and to the ends of the earth and they shall return to their lands of promise i love lands and the book of mormon is really big of having lands of promise rather than a single land of promise although isaiah in the King James Version, it is still singular, but the Book of Mormon, Nephi's account, it is plural. And the house of Israel shall possess them. I don't know if the them has reference to the strangers, that they are all part of it. I think that's what it is because then we say,

and the land of the Lord shall be for servants. The fact that this Israel now encompasses Jew and Gentile, people from all over who have made covenants with the Lord. And where are these lands of promise? Going back to what we said before, can you just see wherever temples are? There is a land of promise. There is gathering happening. And verse 3, and it shall come to pass in that day. Isaiah in the King James Version says, the day.

It's easier to understand. It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow and from thy fear and from thy hard bondage. I think there could be a lot of different ways we could understand hard bondage. You think about people who are being occupied by another people, who are enslaved by another people, but we're also in bondage to our anger and vengeance against others of our sins and shortcomings that keep us from embracing the fullness of the Spirit. But he said, yep, in that day, I'll give them rest. It's a little snapshot as far as the gathering, but it's a beautiful one, isn't it? Babylon is brutal, and I'll pull them away from you. Yeah, in contrast to Babylon, what's happening to the king of Babylon?

You see him there in verse 4, thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon and say, how hath the oppressor ceased and the golden city ceased? How did this happen? What if you were to have this picture in your mind? Here comes Persia. The king of Babylon can see them coming. It's over. And they're like, oh, by the way, we have a letter for you. Who's it from? It's from Isaiah. He wrote this a couple hundred years ago. He wanted us to give this to you just as you were being destroyed. Ah, yeah. He's going, oh here they come you've got the juxtaposition of what's going to be

happening to babylon and what's happened to those who have followed the lord in this rest verse seven the whole earth is at rest and is quiet and they break forth into singing but look what's happening verse nine hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming. Okay, hell is being prepared for the king of Babylon. We're waiting for you, king. We've got a place. It stirreth up the dead for thee. We've got a big party to welcome you in. Verse 11, thy pomp is brought down to the grave. The noise of thy vials is not heard, or their instruments. The worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. That's got to be figurative.

The idea that all you have to live with are the worms that are eating your dead body. Okay. That's pretty good. That's a good juxtaposition, don't you think? On that happy note. And then you look at then, and that fast, Isaiah is

likening that king of Babylon to Lucifer. Verse 12, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning? What does Lucifer mean in Hebrew? Lightbearer. Yes, O Lucifer, son of the morning. What does Lucifer mean in Hebrew? Lightbearer. Yes, the shining one.

Look how fast. You are cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations. And yet, what is Lucifer? King of Babylon, Lucifer, for thou has said in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. I will sit upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north. I will ascend unto the heights of the clouds. I will be the most high. And the Lord says, yet thou shalt be brought down to hell to the sides of the pit. I mean, we've seen this downfall of evil in other places in scripture. Isaiah spoke of it,

and to remember, this is the future, and to be aware of the power of God. I love verse 16. Look at the response of everyone afterwards. It's so good. They that shall see thee shall narrowly look upon thee and shall consider thee and shall say, is this the man that did make the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms and made the world as a wilderness and destroyed the cities thereof and opened not the house of his prison. Is this the one that held us all prisoner? Really? Yeah. We thought he was something. This is him? I thought he'd be taller. Yes, there's no crown. Verse 20, thou shalt not be joined with them in burial. Maybe you talk about the worms eating the king of Babylon, but I wonder if this is saying Satan will never have a body.

There's no body to bury. Prepare a slaughter for his children for the iniquities of their fathers. Verse 22, I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name and the remnant and son and nephew, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name and the remnant and son and nephew, saith the Lord. There's no one left in Babylon. You get a sense in verse 23 of a cleansing of the earth that it is renewed after Babylon is destroyed, swept clean and then verse 24 the lord of hosts hath sworn saying surely as i have thought so shall it come to pass as i have purposed so shall it stand and then we revert back to the assyrian the time of isaiah and as our type that i will bring the asssyrian in my land. He allowed Assyria to come into the land of Israel.

And upon my mountains tread him underfoot. Then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. Then he's going to be wiped off, and Assyria is gone. They are freed from them. Some people have thought in verse 29, the serpent's root and the cockatrice that came after might be the two kings of Assyria, Shalmaneser V and Sennacherib, but it doesn't, you know, whoever they put up, they're going down. In verse 32, it is because the Lord has founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. You think where we started with chapter 20, and the poor and the vulnerable, the fatherless and the widows being ignored.

And here at the end of chapter 24, we're reminded that the Lord is very mindful. Not only the poor of his people, I think of poor in spirit that come unto him. The meek shall inherit the earth. That he's saying, hallelujah, the Lord is victorious and evil has been put down. There's no one left in Babylon. What great bookend verses.

Yeah, they are. You have to take care of the vulnerable. You have to. Yes, that comes through over and over, and it means we have to be humble. We can't be prideful. And that's where Nephi stops. He stops there, and then he breaks in with his prophesying and his feelings about Isaiah. I'm on page 97 looking at hard copy of scriptures, verses 1 through 8. It is where we typically just spend so much time, and it's wonderful. But let me bring out a few highlights, what I think I can see Nephi's saying here. Starts out, I, Nephi, do speak somewhat concerning the words which I have written, which have been spoken by the mouth of Isaiah. He wants to talk about what he finds in these chapters. For behold, Isaiah spake many things which were hard for many of my people to understand,

for they know not concerning the manner of prophesying among the Jews. But then he said, I, Nephi, have not taught them many things concerning the manner of the Jews, for their works were works of darkness. And he's not going to explain it to us here. But what does he want us to know in verse 3 wherefore i write unto my people unto all those that shall receive hereafter these things which i write that they may know the judgments of god that they come upon all nations according to the word which he had spoken i mean let's not forget that part in talking about all the different ways of writing,

the poetry and the parallelism and everything. And then in verse 4 is where he says, All my people which are of the house of Israel, give ear to my words, for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless, they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy. And I just think if we've gone through this, although there's certain phrases or certain things

that we might not completely understand, you get, if you're focused on Jesus Christ and a testimony of Jesus Christ, and you're finding him in these chapters, it makes a lot more sense. I still think the history and the geography help. Me too. Look at verse 5.

Yea, and my soul delighteth in the words of Isaiah, and I came out from Jerusalem, and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the Jews. He understands more than his people do. Isn't that what he's saying, Nephi? But what does he say? And I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets. And there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews. So he's saying when Isaiah and Jeremiah,

when they're writing, they didn't write obscurely so people could not understand, and they're scratching their head. They made this that they could understand. In verse 6, in the middle of that verse, he says, because I dwelled in Jerusalem, I know concerning the regions round about. So he's saying, yeah, geography, help, and I know that. And I've made mention unto my children concerning the judgments of God. Let's not forget that with everything else that's going on. Let's not get caught up in geography when there's a more important message going on. And then verse 7, but behold, I proceed with mine own prophecy according to my plainness, in the which I know that no on that one.

When people say, here's one of the keys to understanding Isaiah, live when they happen. Well, duh. But part of understanding Isaiah. Live when they happen. Well, duh. But part of it is understanding this before they happen. I mean, it's one thing to be there on Nob watching the Assyrians come and you're saying, oh, I think we, you know, or when you're seeing them coming right to the walls of Babylon or coming right to the walls of Jerusalem to destroy it, it would be nice that we get the message before it gets a little late to repent. But I think that's true.

I'm thinking this year, as we read the Book of Mormon, more than any previous year, we see prophecies and how they can be fulfilled in our day. Don't we see our day so much more? And this time going through the Book of Mormon, I think after we've studied the Old Testament and the New Testament, now we come to the Book of Mormon. Well, I think we understand that, yes.

But it is kind of funny. Because then in verse 8, he says there at the end of the verse, For I know that they shall be of great worth unto them in the last days, for in that day shall they understand them. We have a lot to help us to understand them. We understand Hebrew so much better. When you have someone like Dr. Olson here, you can say, now I understand. And we have Joseph Smith, and we have the restored gospel that helps us to understand. We have scriptures that have footnotes that are very helpful. So now he wants to say, okay, and part of this is growing out of what he has been inspired

by what he wrote in Isaiah's words. But there in verse 9, he makes a very fascinating observation based on probably what he knows happens from the Babylonians and also the Assyrians and maybe how many others. Maybe as the children of Israel came into the promised land initially and destroyed Canaanites when they came. Notice this, as one generation hath been destroyed among the Jews because of iniquity, even so have they been destroyed from generation to generation according to their iniquities. And remember, pride is at the base of so much of those iniquities. But get this, and never hath any of them been destroyed, save it were foretold them by the prophets of the Lord. The Lord will never destroy

without warning. We have prophets to warn us. If we're listening to the prophets, we have time. We understand what's going on. We repent. We're ready. We have no reason to fear the Assyrian. Camille, speaking of that, my mind automatically went to the second to last paragraph of the family proclamation, 15 prophets and apostles. We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. You're right. He always sends warning.

It doesn't guarantee we'll listen, but he will always warn. And if we will listen, we'll hear him. We will hear them. He reviews. Verse 10, there it is, the Babylonians. I warned them, the destruction before. And then verse 11, here he's telling them,

but they are going to come back. The Lord's going to let them come back. 539, the Persians, they shall return again and possess the land of Jerusalem. Nephi knows this by way of prophecy. And then he comes down in verse 12. Now we're the time of Christ, that he will come to them in the flesh, and they will reject him because of their iniquities and the hardness of their hearts and the stiffness of their necks. End of verse 12. And verse 13, they'll crucify him, and they'll be in the sepulcher for three days, and yet he'll rise from the dead with healing in his wings.

And those who shall believe on his name shall be saved in the kingdom of God, wherefore my soul delighteth to prophesy concerning him, for I have seen his day, and my heart doth magnify his holy name. Here you see already some of those themes of Isaiah, the coming of Christ, the scattering of Israel, the gathering of Israel in the type when they come back to Jerusalem. But then verse 14, Jerusalem's going to be destroyed again. 80, 70. And verse 15, the Jews shall be scattered among all nations. Yea, also Babylon shall be destroyed, the world, and the Jews shall be scattered by other nations. In some ways, here Nephi's saying, God will always warn us through prophets.

Generation upon generation, people haven't listened to the prophets. And even at the time of Christ, they won't listen. So many will not listen to the prophets. But the answer is always the same. The only one who can save us, the only one will save us, the only one to protect us, the only one to guide us, to inspire us, is the Savior. Looking future, how will you respond to the prophets? And then we get this wonderful long verse 16, which I think starts saying, okay, then what is the message? How can we be different from those who ignored the prophets? And after they have been scattered, and the Lord has scourged them by other nations for the space of many generations, yea, down from one generation to another, until when? Until they

shall be persuaded to believe in Christ, the Son of God, and the atonement which is infinite for all mankind. That's the way Lehi previously defined the gathering. Until they come to believe in Christ, and when that day shall come that they shall believe in Christ and worship the Father in his name with pure hearts and clean hands and look not forward anymore for another Messiah, then at that time the day shall come that it must needs be expedient that they should believe these things. We're looking for a day that we're

not looking for a plan B. We're not looking for someone else to be our Messiah. There is only one Messiah. In words that very much sound like what we read back in 2 Nephi 21, Isaiah's writings, the Lord will set his hand again the second time. This time instead of recover, Nephi says restore his people from their lost and fallen state. It doesn't mean that we're scattered by a nation to live in different places. We are lost. We are scattered because we know not where to find the tree. We know not where the Redeemer is in our fallen state. Wherefore, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder among the children of men

to help them find him. It seems, Camille, the scattering was meant to help them. Yes. The Lord brings beauty from ashes. I don't think he's saying, oh, in the perfect world, I want them to do such evil, so I'll have to scatter them. But because we are fallen, and we make mistakes, and and we choose poorly and we are rebellious at times. Yes, but the gathering can't happen. This whole idea of the strength that can come from the gathering without those difficulties that preceded them. He makes beauty from ashes. When I read 25 and I'm seeing all that Nephi is getting out of this, he's not just

getting this out of the Isaiah chapters we read. He's also getting this from his own vision, from things his father has said. He's like giving a summary, like a smoothie of everything we've read so far. And I think that Isaiah helped him. I mean, to read Isaiah helped him kind of solidify and be able to compound all truths in one. The fact that everyone, all these prophets are saying similar things, but what that comes together, what does that mean? And he says, I want to say it's so plain that not only my people can understand, but that God can help people in a future day to understand this. He is building on what Isaiah has said, inspired by Isaiah, it seems like. But the foundation message is the same, trust in the Lord and not in Babylon.

He says in verse 13, I have seen his day. That's all the way back in Nephi's vision of first Nephi. Yes. And down here in verse 19, he says says an angel of god told me that his name shall be jesus christ that's back in second nephi 10 where it says for this the angel told me that would be his name yes in verse 19 he learns from the angel of god his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God. That takes us back to 2 Nephi 10, and Jacob telling that his revelation from an angel. And then remember 2 Nephi 11, right at the very beginning, before we start writing Isaiah, he says, Jacob and Isaiah and I have seen him, and we're three witnesses of these things. It's kind of like all three of them are all working from the same premise and the same truths and sending a very, very similar message. In the mouths of two or more witnesses, all things shall be established.

That's great. I never thought of this chapter as I'm putting together what my father saw, what my brother saw, what Isaiah saw, and I'm going to give you a, here's what you can get. And what I have seen, yes, that we are witnesses of this. This marvelous work and a wonder we read about in verse 17. Look at verse 18. Wherefore he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, and they shall be given them for the purpose of what? Convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them, and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward anymore for a Messiah to come. He prophesies in verse 19 again, similar to what his father had said, that 600 years from this time, the Savior will come. And then he comes to

this, his conclusion in this chapter. And it's kind of like, let's wrap this up and say, what am I saying to you? I'm saying this so plainly that you cannot err. And he gives the example of Moses in the wilderness with the children of Israel when they're bitten by the poisonous serpents. And what did they have to do to be healed? Look. Look at the serpent on the staff. And what does the serpent on the staff represent? The Holy One of Israel, Jesus Christ. You look to him. And why does the Book of Mormon and other places, why does it say that so many of them didn't look? Because of the simpleness of the way. What is he saying again? You want to be saved? You want to live? You want to have a

fullness of life? You want to have hope and joy in life? You look to him. You trust in him. In verse 21, wherefore for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved. That's why I'm writing this. What's the reason? We keep our eyes on him. We look to him. We trust him. How many times have we got this from chapter 20 to here? How many times? And every time you think, oh no, I can do it. I don't need him. We are so great. We can do this. So then we get to verse 23. Now look at it in context. For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ, to be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do. To come to that verse and come away and say, we have to do all of this by ourselves first before the grace of Christ will kick in. Is the most ridiculous

interpretation possible? You simply pluck that verse out of context and make it say what you want it to say. It does not fit in the context of what Isaiah and before him Jacob and before him Lehi and Nephi have said. Elder Ballard said, it is by grace we are saved even after all we can do. That's M. Russell Ballard. Elder Hafen said, before and after all we can do. I've heard others say, despite all we can do, if pride's the sin, what happens when we get to this verse and say, aye, aye, aye? No. It is truly by the grace of Jesus Christ that we are saved. Camille, wow, wow, wow. To come at that verse having five five chapters of preparation, completely changes the verse.

It does. Yeah, putting that in the context of everything that's come before and our total reliance on God is such a good way to look at that next. And after all we can do, I'm just reminded in the book of John, without me, ye can do nothing. I think that's kind of the danger of taking one verse and setting it by itself instead of seeing everything surrounding it. Even the next couple of verses after that are so important to keep reading. I know. It doesn't change and say, so did you get that? You have to do this, this, this, and this, and this, and this.

You have to climb up the ladder as far as the ladder goes before I'll drop a rope down to help you. Remember that little metaphor? That was on my mission. We had that one passed around. But yeah, verse 24, notwithstanding we believe in Christ,

we keep the law of Moses. So he goes from that and saying, yeah, we got this law of Moses because the law of Moses hasn't been fulfilled. But in reality, verse 25, that law is dead to us because we know Christ and we know his higher teachings and we are made alive in Christ. And therefore, verse 26, we talk of Christ. We rejoice in Christ. We preach of Christ. And therefore, verse 26, we talk of Christ. We rejoice in Christ. We preach of Christ. We prophesy of Christ. And we write according to our prophecies that our children may look

to that source, which they may look for a remission of their sins. That's the hope. That's the lesson from the Assyrians and the Babylonians, from the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom, from Jerusalem at the time the Babylonians came in. That's the lesson he wants us to get. It isn't depending on our own strength. It's the exact opposite. It's just the opposite. And it was the pride of the people that led them down this, I can do this. How many times do we hear the king of Babylon, the king of the Assyrians, Lucifer saying,

I, I, I, I'm the great one. No, we cannot do it without him. So here's Elder Ballard. I already miss hearing his voice now that he has passed, but I'm so glad we have so many of his writings. He said, it is only through the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ that people can overcome the consequences of bad choices. Thus, Nephi teaches us that it is ultimately by the grace of Christ that we are saved, even after all we can do. No matter how hard we work, no matter how much we obey, no matter how many good things we do in this life, it would not be enough were it not for Jesus

Christ and his loving grace. Now, you go on to say, so what is all we can do? That's another way to look at this. What is all we can do? If you haven't already, your listeners, if they haven't already made a cross-reference from that 2 Nephi 25-23 to Alma 24 verse 11, We ought to do it. Alma 24, clear ahead to where we've got the king of the anti-Nephi-Lehi's, the people of Ammon. Using exactly the same words. I'm so glad you're bringing this up. It's exactly the same words. They have found Jesus Christ.

They have truly converted. This is right as they're ready to bury their weapons of war in the ground and make covenants again and again, saying, we will give our lives rather than ever turn from him. And verse 11, here is the king of those converted Lamanites. And he said, and now behold, my brethren, since it had been all that we could do, it has been all that we could do as we were the most lost of all mankind to repent of all our sins and the many murders we have done. What is all we can do? It is to repent, to return to the Holy One of Israel, to overcome Babylon and come back to him, to come to a true knowledge of the Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and to follow him.

That's all we can do. But we'll get to King Benjamin pretty soon. We'll be there. And he's saying, even when we do that, we are blessed. So we're more indebted to him. Of what have we to boast? I think I learned about the incredible grace of Jesus Christ, where I first, it just dawned on me, was teaching the second half of the New Testament, teaching the Pauline epistles.

It was Paul that made me face the power of the grace of Jesus Christ, and that it is only through the grace of Jesus Christ that we are safe. Once I figured it out the way Paul was teaching it, I come back to the Book of Mormon and I'm going, whoa, it is powerful. Several years ago, I was part of a group at BYU with, there were about six of us professors at BYU in religion, and we met with six evangelical professors from around the country. And we would talk about all manner of doctrinal topics from scripture. It was never with the intent to try to convert each other, but better to understand each other. And once there was a conference that was established that they wanted to get students together

so that they could be part of this. And this conference actually was held in Salt Lake. But evangelical students from a lot of different places came in for it. And I was coupled with a dear, dear friend, evangelical professor of New Testament that I love dearly. And we were supposed to talk about grace and how we evangelicals and Latter-day Saints might differ in our approaches to grace. He was to teach it from the Bible, and I was to teach grace as taught in the Book of Mormon. He went first, and I had to keep saying,

Amen, Brother, to everything he said. It was beautiful. And then I got up. And so we've got a lot of evangelical students and LDS students in the audience. And I went through the Book of Mormon. It was a remarkable experience to teach from the Book of Mormon about grace, the grace of Jesus Christ, and it is by him that we are saved. Afterwards, there was a time of question and answers. One evangelical student said, that was the most powerful message and treaties on the grace of Jesus Christ that you got from the Book of Mormon. Obviously moved, he said, is it possible that your church had it wrong all this time until now? I remember quickly answering, actually, the Book of Mormon hasn't changed at all.

I have changed. And I think back on what we have had in this book and the testimony of Jesus Christ and what he has done for us and what he continues to do for us. It is overwhelming to me to recognize that it is in recent years that we have really embraced what it means to have this gift. President Nelson has asked us to find a Savior in here. And you say, oh, he's everywhere. He's in everything. And the more we look, the more we will find him. The more we will find him.

Camille, I want to share with you a story and a quote from one of my favorite teachers. Now, Camille, you can't say anything until this is over. This talk is from a BYU Hawaii devotional and it's entitled, What is so amazing about grace? This teacher tells this story that I absolutely love. She talks about being a young seminary teacher. She said, I've been teaching release time seminary for about five years when a student I had taught when she was a sophomore came back to visit me when she was a senior in high school. After a few pleasantries, she informed me that she was no longer attending the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She told me she now attended a Protestant church in the area. I felt as though she wanted me to react with alarm when

she made this announcement, so I remained calm and asked, that's interesting. What led you to that decision? Her answer shook me. She said, when I attended my LDS ward, we talked about being honest, the importance of reading scriptures and getting married in the temple, and the importance of a living prophet. But I never heard much about Jesus Christ. In this new church I attend, Jesus is the heart and soul of all the sermons. And then this teacher says, my first reaction was denial. In my thoughts, I was arguing that she wasn't listening when she had attended the LDS church because certainly the Savior is the heart of what we believe and understand. In my attempt to validate these assumptions, I asked all the students in my five classes

the next day what they thought. To my amazement, the great majority in every class agreed with her, concluding that we didn't speak, teach, or mention much about the Savior other than in the hymns and in the prayers, I made a silent vow that day that I would never teach a lesson or give a talk without making a connection between the topic or scripture block and the atonement of Jesus Christ. This devotional was actually given based on this verse, 2 Nephi 25, 23. This incredible teacher, she comes in and out. She comes back and forth from this verse, trying to help Latter-day Saints see what Nephi means here.

And then she finishes this way. She says, accepting the grace of Jesus Christ is not a weakness. It's not, oh, I've got to work as hard as I can. So then he can make up the difference. I don't want to be weak. Accepting the grace of Jesus Christ is not a weakness. And then this, she says in a legalistic world filled with warnings about being taken advantage of, we struggle to accept that Christ gives us more, infinitely more than we can ever repay. After worldly bombardments of, if you think it's too good to be true, it probably is. And you get what you pay for.

We try to get our heads and hearts around the Savior's gift of enabling power. In our modern world, this seems just too good to be true. In contrast, to pay as you go and earn what you receive, and it's better to give than to receive, we encounter the doctrine of grace and we get confused. Grace requires us to look beyond the treasures of a fallen world. It demands our focus to be on the one whose power, knowledge, and love supersede the great accomplishments that all the core whores and knee whores can muster. Accepting the grace of Jesus Christ is not a weakness. It's not, I couldn't do all that I could, so Jesus had to step in. Accepting the grace of Jesus Christ is not a weakness.

It is our only strength. In all that we want to do, his gift intercedes to support and enable. We can put our trust in the Lord and his unique and essential gift of the atonement. We'll stop trying to cover our sins, but turn them over to the Savior, accepting his generous offer of repentance in return. We can more consciously acknowledge his strength and wisdom in all our successes. This fantastic talk, BYU Hawaii 2009, What is so amazing about grace? The speaker, Dr. Camille Frank Olson. What did you think about that?

That talk there, Camille? Oh, well, it was fun to go there and give a talk, that's for sure. That's an incredible story about that student. Oh, it changed my life. It really did. It changed the way I teach. I thought I was doing it to help students find Christ. And it was about the same time that the church added the subtitle on the Book of Mormon, Another Testimony of Jesus Christ, or Another Testament of Jesus Christ. And I always thought it was to tell other people outside the church that we believe in Christ. And then it was to help my students know that. But it changed me.

And forever changed the way I taught. So I thank that student for doing that. I was sitting on a plane in exotic New Jersey, and a guy came down the aisle with a Vote for Pedro shirt on. And he said, why are you so dressed up? And I said, I've just been speaking to some missionaries in my church. And he said, really? So have I. He was an evangelical minister. And he said, I saw his book by Robert L. Millett called A Different Jesus.

And I said, I know him. You know how he and Greg Johnson do that, a Mormon and evangelical in conversation? I said, why don't we do that? And he said, okay. And he said, you guys believe in the jesus of the gaps and the way my mind works i thought i don't really know where jesus shopped i don't think it was the gap but he said you think you're gonna do all this and then jesus makes up the difference at the end and i thought oh i know where you got that guess what verse he's gonna

come yeah guess what verse he's thinking like it's a sequence after all we can do okay let's add up your points and so many recently have addressed this and brad wilcox has addressed this and he said if you never went to the temple again could you be saved and i said i go to the temple because i think the lord wants me to but the temple is not the savior jesus is the savior my mission is not the savior. Jesus is my savior. My keeping the word of wisdom is not the savior. Jesus is my savior. And King Benjamin says, we are all beggars. There's none of us who can say, nope, God let me in. I got all the points. I did everything I could do.

Yeah. We are all in the position of a beggar, all of us. That experience, like your student, was a great experience for me. I went home and I looked up every occurrence of the word merits in the Book of Mormon and found some awesome verses relying solely and only upon the merits of Christ. And I'm so glad I sat by him because it helped me so much to get all of these verses together. Because none of those references have anything to do with us. It's not our merits. It's always the Savior's merits. That's Scripture.

And we can be willing, but he is able. The only thing we are ever called in the Scripture, as far as I can see, is willing. But he is able to do his work. But we can try and then mess up and try again next week because he's so merciful. He says, come back to the sacrament table next week. It'll still be here. Camille, could I ask you to do something very difficult? Let's say that there's someone folding laundry right now listening or someone on their commute is listening. They're thinking, I have to do everything I can possibly do so I can receive exaltation.

I have to. I've been taught that, you know, in Sunday school and seminary. I have to run faster than I have strength. I have to. I have to. And then will you do me a favor, Camille, and sit in that laundry room or sit in the passenger seat of the car, how would you help someone break out of that paradigm into this one where you have some freedom to rely on someone else? I would tell her that she knows how much the Lord loves her, that she knows how much He sees her and all that she tries to do to help others

does she recognize that the lord has enabling power to allow us to do the things that he needs us to do that he will not leave us comfortless, that he's merciful. When we stumble, he delights in us trying to follow him, but we will stumble. And when we stumble, he is there to take our hand, just like Peter as he fell in the depths of the sea. Immediately, he stretched forth his hand. And he does that for us. He calls that progress. It's not failure.

It is progress. We come closer to him. And he delights in our hearts and our desire for us to serve him. But he does not intend for us to take the load of everything upon us. We are to be joyful. And to find joy, I just think there is something so profound about the opportunity we have to pray and to ask our Father in heaven to help us. Where do you need me today? And there are mundane things that have to be done. But we do that and just say, oh, if I can have him with me as I fold laundry and sing of him and sing praises to him. And you know, sometimes the laundry doesn't get finished, but there's someone there that needs me to be with them and to listen to them.

I would ask her to learn to hear the voice of the Lord through his spirit so that she can know when she has to make some choices that mean some things don't get done, that the Lord is happy with what she's done. And she's doing good things to help others. We live in a fallen earth, and things are not perfect. And not only do we stumble and fall, we don't ever get that to-do list. To-do lists are wonderful for certain things that just kind of go, all right, I got to remember this. But it isn't our rule. And if we let a to-do list determine our day-to-day, our minute-by-minute schedule, we'll be miserable to live with, and we'll be miserable in our own life. Let's turn our life over to the Lord and trust him that he really will

help us and lead us to what we need to be doing and to let go of the things that don't get done today. That laundry will still be there tomorrow. We'll get to it eventually. But God loves you, and she needs to know that, and she needs to know and hear that from him, not from me or from anyone else. She needs to hear it from him. I was thinking of my dear friend and editor, Emily Watts, who gave a talk once about laundry nirvana, and she said, you never get all of the laundry done because while you're doing the laundry, other people are out wearing and dirtying laundry. You never get to laundry nirvana where it's all done.

And isn't that like our using the gospel? Keep using it, keep using it, but just realize you're never going to get the whole thing done. Yeah. It's like putting deadlines on it. It's a happy, joyful way of life. And if it isn't, then our focus is off. It's like when Gadona said, why are you telling this people there will be no Christ to interrupt their rejoicings? He said to Korahor, we should be rejoicing. I frequently tell my children, none of this stuff we do saves us. Going to church, not watching that movie, going to the temple, none of this stuff saves me. I'm not trying to earn anything with this. And then their automatic question is, well, then why do we do it at all? If Jesus is going to save me, why do I have to do anything?

You guys can tell me what you think about this. Feels like the right thing to say. I hope it is. I say, I do these things, not because I hope the doors of heaven will open to me if I do them, but because the doors of heaven are open to me. I do these things, so I'll want to walk through those doors because those things change who I am inside. So Camille, if someone's in there going, I got to do all I can, I got to do all I can, you're in the right place.

The doors of heaven are wide open to you and you want to go inside. And the path is there. And he is the path. He is the rod. He is the path. He is the rod. He is the tree. He's our guide. He's our judge.

He's our advocate. Yes. We're not left alone. And I think, yeah, I think what you point out, motive, is so important. Why am I doing this? And if it's to get points, it's pretty miserable. We obey because we love the Lord. We love our families.

We want to serve not because we hope we get noticed or because that makes us closer to the tree in our estimation. It is because we love and we want to be like him, and that's what he would do. I like the word striving, but I think we don't strive in a worried way as if we're trying to earn something. We've come to Christ, and now we want to become like Christ because we love him. We strive, but the striving isn't the formula for salvation. The striving is kind of like a fruit of it. Camille, how wonderful that you walked us through those Isaiah chapters that led us to this verse.

And if you come to the conclusion that Nephi is like, okay, you better rely on yourself. You just missed what the message was to israel and judah all of these chapters were the whole reason you're going to be scattered is because you do rely on yourself so good amen what was it that robert millet told somebody when he was young so i told if i get what i deserve and whoever is what said you better pray you don't get what you deserve. Anyway. I want my judgment to be fair. No, actually, I do not. No, I don't want this to be fair. And when I was that evangelical minister, we talk about merit. And I grew up and we grew up, Hank, in a Boy Scout world where you get merit badges and you merit a reward on that.

And when I discovered the word merits in the Book of Mormon and how we're saved by Christ's merits, that was a different paradigm. It was that I hope you earn enough to sit in the eagle's nest. For Deseret Book, I gave a talk years ago called Jesus Knows I'm a Christian because that's finally what I told him. You may not think I'm a Christian, but Jesus knows I'm a Christian. He knows I rely on him. And he knows I know he is not my last hope. He's my only hope.

He knows that. Camille, in that talk I referenced from you, What is So Amazing About Grace, I'd like to just quick comment on this quote from Elder Ballard, where he says, that those works, as good as they are, are hollow unless they are accompanied by a complete dependence on Christ. How do you do both? How do you say, you know what? I want to do a lot. I'm going to do a lot. I'm going to do what I can do, but I rely completely on him. That's a different paradigm to, I've got to earn my way. Yeah, it is very different. And I think part of it is recognizing his hand in our successes, acknowledging that we have received his enabling power today to do what I have been able to accomplish. I remember discovering a quote from Joseph Smith when he was talking to the 12 in his day who were being praised for their good talks that they gave.

And he says, basically, it's this idea, when someone praises you for giving a good talk, don't you be taking credit for that? What are you but dust, oh man? You're nothing. If you're on the Lord's errand and you are speaking in his name, don't you think that when people praise you, you can't take that. I think of that so often. I've had the privilege of having a career where I get to teach straight out of Scripture. And when people say, oh, that was so wonderful. Well, look at the material. I mean, look, you preach out of Scripture, and then you have someone pray that the Spirit of the Lord will be there to help us.

Come on. Can we give credit where credit is due? And to look back and to see, oh, I could never have done that without him. It's one of the real blessings I'm finding about getting older. You have more of life to look back on and more of a perspective to see the way the Lord has shaped your life, has been there time and time and time again, and that you cannot take credit for it, that our lives become witnesses of the grace of Jesus Christ. Yeah. I know it's the Holy Ghost because I don't want to leave. Camille, what a wonderful

day. I'm sure that we have listeners all over the world who appreciate all that you've said. And wherever you are in the world, come to YouTube, come to this episode on YouTube and tell us where you are in the world. We've never done that before, John, but we'd love to find out where you are and hopefully the blessing that this has been to you learning from dr olson this profound truth all of what she taught us leading up to that verse it is by grace that we are saved we've talked so many times to some random person out there folding laundry i'm afraid a lot of follow him listeners will just start folding laundry just because we talk to them so often. We're going to get closer to laundry nirvana. At one point, there will be zero.

At one point. Hey, we want to thank Dr. Camille Frank Olson for being with us today. What a treat. So, so, so, so good. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorenson, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. We always remember our founder, Steve Sorenson. Join us next week. We have more Isaiah to cover on Follow Him. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co.

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