followHIM - Acts 10-15 Part 2 • Dr. Michael Goodman • July 17 - July 23

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

Dr. Goodman examines Paul’s missionary struggles, journeys, and the power we obtain through challenges when relying on the Lord.00:00 Part II–Dr. Michael Goodman00:07 Paul goes to southern Galatian cities and heal03:47 The Lord’s work will go forward through opposition05:52 Faith that things will “work out”08:40 Today’s challenges vs early Saints’10:45 The Lord is interested in our eternal welfare, not daily comfort12:03 The Lord walks with us through trials14:40 Dr. Goodman shares his experience with cancer18:11 Acts 15 Paul and Barnabas in Antioch24:22 The majority never rules29:55 The Lord allows the Saints to struggle to understand revelation32:14 The Saints today and in the primitive church should be Spirit-led34:10 President Packer shares story about a young mom attending church36:42 Cultural expectations vs the Lord’s expectations39:19 President Hinckley and how the First Presidency deliberate42:04 Dr. Goodman shares a story about fulfilling a calling and teaching at a prison49:24 Inspiration needs information52:32 Self-doubt when callings and policy change55:44 Women need to participate in councils59:26 Paul, Barnabas, and John Mark and member retention1:02:40 Dr. Goodman shares his thoughts on Acts 10-151:07:45 End of Part II–Dr. Michael GoodmanPlease rate and review the podcast.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.coFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Welcome to Part 2 with Dr. Mike Goodman, Acts 10-15. All right, let's move on to 14. What are we going to do next? 14. Well, we're going different cities. We're going to start to see the different cities, and these are all Southern Galatian cities. Iconium is one of the first ones. What's he going to do? He's going to start in the synagogues again, and he's going to begin to teach to them. And he spake that a great multitude, both Jews and also Greeks, believed. So again, wherever they're going, they're having pretty great success. But again, in verse 2, but the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and made their minds evil, affected against their brethren. And so you instantly begin to see that they're

going to have some challenges. They'll teach for a little bit there. Then they're going to go to Lyconia, Lystra, Derby, cities of Lyconia. Verse six, they're going to preach the gospel there. They're going to do an amazing healing. Verses eight through 10, there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked. The same heard Paul speak, who steadfastly beholding him and perceived that he had faith to be healed, said unto him with a loud voice, stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. This caused no small stir amongst the people. And they kind of got a little excited

with Paul and Barnabas, right? Verse 12, they called Barnabas Jupiter, which is basically Zeus. It's the chief God. And Paul Mercurius, who was the spokesman of Jupiter and would have done obeisance, would have done sacrifice to him. But of course, Paul and Barnabas stopped them barely, just barely from doing that.

And it's kind of fun. Going back to what we were talking about in the last chapter, they're going to speak to the people where they are. So, look at verses 16 and 17. It's kind of a fun explanation of the apostasy. You've got God who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. So in other words, everyone had their own beliefs, right? Verse 17, nevertheless, he left not himself without witnesses in that he did good and gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness. You notice he's not talking about ancient Israelite history here. He's teaching in a way that they could understand and in a way that they could begin, oh yeah, we believe God gives rain and we believe God gives fruitful seasons and fills our

hearts with gladness. And so he's trying to help these good people understand the nature of God. It's exactly what you're talking about with Lamoni and Ammon, right? Start where they are. I love the humility too, when they come running. We are men like you. We're not gods. That's right. Well, but of course, there's still the opposition and the opposition is going to get physical here. Verse 19, there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium who persuaded the people.

Now, this is interesting. I don't know if they're the same people, the same ones that almost just offered sacrifice to them, persuaded the people and having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. So this was not, I hit you in the head with a rock and didn't that hurt? He was unconscious. They thought he was dead. Verse 20, how be it his disciples stood round about him, he rose up and continued doing the work. He said, okay, let's go to Derbe. We're done here. It, one, shows a little bit of the fickleness of the people if they are really the same crowd. One moment going to worship

you, the next moment going to stone you. But one way or the other, what it does show to me and makes me think of it is the reality that the Lord's work is going to go forward through opposition. Even with this horrible experience happening, the reality is you don't stop God from doing his work. It instantly brought to my mind the standard of truth. President Joseph Smith, Prophet Joseph Smith said, the standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear,

till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the great Jehovah shall say, the work is done. We never have to fear that the Lord's work is going to be frustrated, even though our work, our efforts might be. One of the sweet experiences I've had over the last 25 years plus that I've had opportunities to serve on several committees with members of the First Presidency in Quorum of Twelve, 15 out of the last 20 years.

And one of the things that has just almost blown my mind is no matter what is happening, no matter how bad it seems out there, it's like President Hinckley exemplifies this. It's okay. Yeah. Let the mobs combine. It's going to, God's work is not going to fail. And it's not just a blind positivity. It's, I know who the master is. It's this tremendous faith that God is in charge. And we don't have to fear that somehow the world is going to frustrate God's work, that it's not going to be able to pass. The first presidents of Korma 12 are simply not afraid. They're bold. They know. It reminds me of when President Hinckley was on 60 Minutes, they interviewed President Monson as

well. And Mike Wallace said, how is he so positive? How does he maintain with all the weight that's on his shoulders? How is he so optimistic? And President Monson said, I think he knows how it all works. That's perfect. Yeah. They're not afraid. And you know, Sherry Dew said that if you had spent a lot of time with President Hinckley, and she did, she was his biographer, that one of the phrases you would hear him say a lot is things will work out. And I even remember clipping from the church news when he said, I say that to myself every morning. Things will work out. Wow.

Yeah. He knows how it all works out. That's right. And troubles will come. This is the last times we're going to experience opposition. There are going to be folks who are not pleased with what we're doing, definitely not pleased with our doctrine, definitely not pleased with how we approach issues of morality. And it's not overly common for us to be portrayed well in the media.

You might get the thought that, oh my goodness, the world is just going to close in and how are we ever going to do this? how are we ever going to do this? Well, we're going to do this because God Almighty is doing his work. It's not us. It's the Lord. And just as in this case, things didn't go real well in that city for Paul, that he was unconscious. They thought he was dead.

But literally, he stands up, shakes it off. I'm sure hopefully got a meal in him, and departed with Barnabas to Derbe to begin teaching the gospel in the next place. And succeeding, 21. And when they had preached the word to that city and had taught many, they returned to Lystra and Iconium and to Antioch, the places that he had just had been chased out of and been stoned, they're going to go back and teach those who are willing to receive. Verse 22, confirming the souls of the disciples and exhorting them to continue in the faith.

They're not interested in simply getting people wet. It's not just a baptismal fest. They are seeking to bring people to Christ. And that becomes very important for us in our efforts, our labors. We're not simply interested in numbers. As President Oaks once said, it's not simply whether the church will grow or not. We're seeking to bring people to Jesus Christ so he can save and exalt them. What we call retention, which I get it, it's a good technical definition. What we're really trying to do is help people stay covenant connected, which is that not the message of President Nelson and the First Presidency in Quorum of 12 right now. Two things I wanted to add. One from Elder Ballard. He says, Our challenges are different

today, but they're no less demanding. Instead of angry mobs, we face those who constantly try to defame, like you said, Mike. Instead of extreme exposure and hardship, we face alcohol, drug abuse, pornography, filth, sleaze, greed, dishonesty, spiritual apathy. Instead of families being uprooted and torn from their homes, we see the institution of the family, including the divine institution of marriage, under attack. He said, this is not to suggest that our challenges today are more severe than the challenges faced by those who have gone before us. They are just different. The Lord isn't asking us to load up a handcart. He's asking us to fortify our faith. He isn't asking us to walk across the continent. He's asking us to walk across the street to visit our neighbor. He isn't asking us to give all of our worldly possessions

to build a temple. He's asking us to give our means and our time, despite the pressures of modern living, to continue to build temples and then attend them regularly. He isn't asking us to die a martyr's death. He's asking us to live a disciple's life. Isn't that great? That's so good. Such a beautiful way to look at what we're seeing here, this beautiful story. And it's important that we often or usually start to figure out what does it mean in the context here? Hence, we're taking a look at what's happening in Galatia, what's happening with Paul. But it doesn't matter a whole lot if we don't ultimately bring it to what you just read, Hank. What does it mean for us? How does it apply to us? And then I wanted to ask you about a phrase and see what you both thought. In Acts 14.22,

it says they're confirming their souls. All you talked about there, Mike. And then it said, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. So they're not promising these converts, you know, once you get baptized, life is going to be great, right? Once you get baptized, all your problems are going to go away. I mean, it seems to be the first thing they teach them is now that you're ready to be a disciple, it's through much tribulation that you're going to continue on. If we misunderstand, that goes right back to the concept that we talked about from D. Todd Christofferson, Elder Christofferson. The Lord's interested in our eternal welfare, not our daily comfort. And life is going to have challenges. And we sometimes look at those

challenges and say, oh my goodness, what's wrong with God? Or what's wrong with the plan? What's going wrong? Probably nothing. Well, nothing wrong with God for sure. But the reality is this is the only plan, the only way by which we could actually become as our heavenly parents and ultimately go forward to become like God. You can't do that. You can't work through your own salvation, so to speak, without the challenges that come with life. So, much tribulation is what we are wont to go through, as Joseph said. Yeah, Joseph said that same thing. It reminds me of a joke Elder Holland told. We could make it baptism. It was about marriage,

but this is about baptism when someone says on their baptismal day, I'm at the end of all my troubles. And the person responds, yes, you are. But which end? Which end are you at? I would not want those who are listening to think, well, therefore, I guess I could just have to grin and bear it. Right. That it's going to be miserable. Yeah.

The Lord wants us to come to him. He wants us to seek help. He wants us to seek guidance. He sometimes removes the barrier. So he sends an angel who whacks Peter awake and opens doors and drops chains. Sometimes he removes the challenge. Sometimes, like he did in the Book of Mormon, he strengthens the people so that they can endure the challenge a little longer. And sometimes the reality is life is hard, and he says, I'll walk with you. So whether he is going to remove the challenge, whether he's going to strengthen us to endure the challenge, or whether he's just going to sit with us or walk with us. He promises always relief.

Relief doesn't always mean that all problems go away, but that the Lord is on our side and that he'll always help us if we'll simply learn to turn to him, learn to stay covenant connected. Don't let our challenges pull us away from the love that God is offering. That's great. This is from the Gospel Topics on the app. You can look up under adversity. It just says, when we face adversity, we may complain and become bitter.

Ask questions like, why does this have to happen to me? Why do I have to suffer this me? Why do I have to suffer this now? What have I done to deserve this? But these questions have the power to dominate our thoughts. Such questions can overtake our vision, absorb our energy, and deprive us of the experiences the Lord wants us to receive. Rather than responding in this way, and this is hard. I mean, if there's anybody listening who's like, it's so much easier said than done, right? And we need to acknowledge that. Just say, hey, change your questions. You'll be fine. There are people who are really suffering.

That goes on to say, rather than responding in this way, people should consider asking questions like this. What am I to do? What am I to learn from this experience? What am I to change? Who am I to help? How can I remember my many blessings in times of trial? And you're right, Mike, it doesn't take it away, but it can draw us closer to the Lord, just changing our outlook just as much as we can. Those paragraphs are cut and pasted from a talk of Elder Richard G. Scott in 1995. I remember that. And I loved that correlation with Nephi, knowest thou the condescension of God? And Nephi says, I know he loves his children. And knowing that question and answering that question can help us with the rest of it. Well, I know he loves me. I don't know why I'm going through this, but I know he loves me.

So therefore, what should I learn? What should I do? And sometimes I think that once we've gone through something like that, I mean, the Lord sometimes puts us in spots where we can talk to others who are also going through it. I mean, I think of you, Mike, and what you're going through, and I'll bet that you have been helping others who are also going through what you're going through in a way that I couldn't. An interesting thing on that. I've been going through cancers for 16 or 17 years now. Wow, Mike. For the first five years, I never spoke of it. I didn't speak of it to my BYU classes. I

didn't speak about it in church. I didn't even speak about it with my friends unless they knew. But I had an interesting experience with a stake president and a member of the 70 again who actually called me on the carpet and said, you are meant to be a witness of the goodness of God. And by not sharing, you're robbing God of that opportunity to share his love and help others see his love. And I was kind of taken aback. I just never thought of sharing my cancer journey. But since then, I have to admit, it often feels kind of awkward. But I share it with my classes. And I was a mission president in Thailand, 1997, 27 years ago.

And I still have a relationship in Thailand. I still translate for general conference and do things like that. But when my friends and loved ones in Thailand learned about my cancer, I found out that they called a fast throughout the church in Thailand. And I would have never asked for that. But I have found that it's not me. Nothing about me. I'm smiling and staying alive. That's all I'm doing. But the Lord is able to take these experiences, these heart experiences, which I'd still, mind you, if I can get rid of these cancers, I would.

But he still is taking that and witnessing of his love um and so i i do think that the lord has a way of helping us to to deal with our own challenges in a way that then helps us to be able to help others work through their challenges and their their their Mike, thanks so much for that. I think our listeners, I don't know. John, what'd you call it? Same boat therapy? Same boat therapy. It's powerful.

If someone can say, I've been there, oh, totally changes the way you listen to them. And it's like, wow, thank you, Heavenly Father, for putting me in the same spot where somebody who has been through this can talk to me. That companionship is huge. And Mike, I mean, those people in Thailand, they got a chance to mourn with you

and they never would have been able to had you not shared. That was what I was called on the carpet for was not giving people an opportunity to exercise faith. And so, yeah, now I talk about it a little more. Yeah, a little more. Let's move on to our last chapter of the day, chapter 15. What happens? Oh, this is such an important chapter.

You would think through the experiences of chapters 10 and 11 that everyone got it, and they've all moved forward, and they all now know the church is going to the Gentiles. And then you've just seen this beautiful ministry of Paul and Barnabas and John Mark in Galatia. But clearly, we still have some challenges going on. Paul and Barnabas go back to Antioch. And while they're there, verse 1 of chapter 15, certain men, which came down from Judea, taught the brethren and said, except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved. So this goes back, John, to what you had mentioned earlier. These weren't people who are denying Christ.

These weren't people who are trying to dissuade people from coming to Christ. They believed that to come to Christ, you had to obey the law of circumcision, part of the law of Moses, right? Well, Paul and Barnabas disagreed. Verse 2, when therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And so they trooped from Antioch down to Jerusalem. And while they're there, this is interesting, go to verse five, but there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed. I don't remember if we talked about this earlier, but in the Gospels, the Pharisees are usually portrayed as pretty bad.

In the book of Acts, they're almost always portrayed as good. And that there were Pharisees who were believers. But they were Pharisees who were believers who but they were Pharisees who were believers who are, as it should not be surprising to us, believed in the beauty and the majesty of the law that they had been taught for over a thousand years. So they arose, they rose up and they said that it was needful to circumcise them and to

command them to keep the law of Moses. So yes, come to Christ, but you do that through coming through the law of Moses. So yes, come to Christ, but you do that through coming through the law of Moses. And that begins what's called the Apostles' Council. In the church, we often call it the Jerusalem Conference, but it's the period in which the prophets, the apostles, the church leaders are going to have to grapple with, okay, how are we going to deal with this? And to be very frank, this is one of the most clear, I think, and powerful examples of how God directs His church through councils. It's such a good example. So if I could kind of walk us through just an overview.

After the issue is raised, you got the, sometimes we call them the Judaizers, but they're those who believed in Christ. Some of them were Pharisees, but thought you had to go through the law of Moses. After they spoke, then you have the leaders speak. You have Peter, who we see as the church president. So he's going to stand up and he's going to talk about his experience with Cornelius. So he's going to rehearse the experience with Cornelius. As soon as he's done, verse 12, Barnabas and Paul are going to declare the miracles and wonders they've had. So you've got different leaders that are counseling saying, hey, let me tell you about this and let me tell you this thought. And then you get down to James verse 13. And James seems to summarize. Some of

our commentators have said James is basically taking what Peter has said and Paul has said and bringing it down to the nitty gritty. Now, it's probably important for those who are listening to realize that James was, we believe, the brother of Jesus Christ. So not the James we just lost. Not the James we just lost. That would be very difficult, right? So this is the brother of Christ. And James, the brother of Christ, seems to be the local leader. He seems to be the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem.

And Paul is going to refer to him later as an apostle. We don't know if that is the office of an apostle or whether that is the work of an apostle. But one way or the other, James then gives verbiage to what I guess you might say is a compromised position. Though I'm a little hesitant to use the word compromise as you're going to see because I'm going to share a couple of quotes on this. But this is what he says.

Go down to verse 19. Wherefore, my sentence is that we trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God. So we don't ask them to do everything in the law of Moses, but that we write unto them that they, one, abstain from pollutions to idols. Two, from fornication. And three, from things strangled, meaning those that haven't been ritually killed and drained of blood. So he says there are three things we're going to ask of them. We're not going to ask the whole, they don't have to be circumcised. We don't ask them to live all of the law of Moses. But the three things we ask is abstain from those things that are offered to

idols. So in other words, avoid any conflation between the God of Israel and Zeus and the other gods that are out there. Two, live a moral life, be free from fornication, sexual relations outside of what God has dictated. And three, in this one, those first two, you can kind of see big picture issues, things about idolatry and things about obedience to the law of chastity. This last one from things strangled or from blood seems to be a way of allowing Jewish and Christian converts to do what Peter did. Remember Peter went in unto Cornelius and slept there and ate there. And that was one of the reasons why in chapter 11, they were so, oh my goodness, what were you doing? It allowed the social discourse to happen between members of the church who came from

a Jewish background and those who came from a Gentile background. A Gentile. So is it kind of a compromise or just an avenue? Yeah. I wouldn't even call it a compromise. I would say that what it really is, is James going through all of the possibilities and saying, these things are necessary. They're necessary to allow us to continue to grow, but you're not going to have to do all of the law of Moses. I would avoid the word compromise

because he wasn't simply taking two positions and meshing them together. He was saying, what is it that we need to do? And as you're going to see in just a moment, this wasn't just a, hey, we think this is a good idea. This is going to come down to a unified decision by the leaders, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, James, all of the leaders, and it is going to be confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Go down to verse 28. For it seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things. The reason I've been so hesitant to use the word compromise is because our prophets have tried to make clear that when the first presidency and quorum of 12 were making decisions and putting forth policies and practices and things like that,

they're not simply trying to compromise. They're seeking to know what the Lord's will is. And this is one where, if it's okay, I really think there'd be value in reading a few statements from our First Presidency in Quorum of Twelve on this exact event. So you have Elder Christofferson, who used the Apostles' Council or the Jerusalem Council as an example to try to help people understand how God governs his church today. He said this. This is Elder Christopherson's words. Our record of his counsel is certainly incomplete, but we are told that after quote-unquote much disputing, Peter, the senior apostle, rose up and declared what the Holy

Spirit had confirmed to him. After Paul and Barnabas, and perhaps others spoke in support of Peter's declaration, James moved that the decision be implemented by letter to the church, and the council was united with one accord. In the letter announcing the decision, the apostle said, it seems good to the Holy Ghost and to us. Or in other words, this decision came by divine revelation through the Holy Spirit. And this is Elder Christopherson's words. These same patterns are followed today in the restored Church of Jesus Christ. The president of the Church may announce or interpret doctrine based on revelation to him.

Doctrinal exposition may also come through the combined counsel of the First Presidency in Cormac XII. Council's deliberations will often include a weighing of canonized scripture, teachings to church leaders' past practices. But in the end, just as in the New Testament church, the objective is not simply consensus among council members, but revelation from God. It is a process involving both reason and faith for obtaining the mind and will of God. And he's not the only one who has spoken on this. President Hinckley made the exact same statement that no decision comes that isn't by the united voice of the First Presidency in Quorum of Twelve based on the whisperings of the Spirit. And then President Nelson was probably more clear than anyone on this issue. President Nelson said this, when we convene as a council of the First Presidency

in Quorum of Twelve, our meeting rooms become rooms of revelation. The Spirit is palpably present. As we wrestle with complex matters, a thrilling process unfolds as each apostle freely expresses his thoughts and point of view. Though we may differ in our initial perspectives, the love we feel for each other is constant. Our unity helps us to discern the Lord's will for his church. In our meetings, the majority never rules. We listen I think this pattern in Acts chapter 15, which Elder Christofferson used as a model, and President Nelson is trying to help members realize this isn't just 15 nice, kind, old Christian men who are doing their best with their own reasoning and logic. They're not trying to come to simple consensus. This is a process of revelation. And pick your issue, whatever our challenge is, whatever

it is that we quote unquote don't agree with or we see differently. I think if we realize the first presidency and quorum of 12 are not acting out of their best, simply their best understanding. But when it comes to that, which is given to the church, they act based on revelation and they don't act until there is a complete unanimity and the witness of the Spirit. So I think there's just such power in this chapter.

This is a lot of fun to see this church working this out. Interesting, Mike, isn't it, that the Lord gave the revelation and then lets them kind of grapple for a while instead of saying, here's how you're going to do every little part of this. That's right.

Again, it comes down to what are eternal truths? So doctrines and principles are based on eternal truths. Practices and policies change. And so how they're implemented. So for instance, at this point in the church's history, no eating anything offered to idols, no fornication, no eating that which still has blood in it. Well, nowadays, we're not worried about idols and we're not worried about blood, but we are dealing with the law of chastity because the law of chastity was and is an eternal doctrine where kosher eating and food to idols was an issue that was specifically pertinent to this

population and this group. And so by understanding what is eternal and realizing that the first presence in Quorum of Twelve always based their decisions on what is eternal, realizing that the first presence in quorum of 12 always base their decisions on what is eternal, it can give us much greater trust as we work through the policies and practices, which sometimes do change based on the needs of the people. I love verse 28 there. And I love the sequence of it. It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us. I put my margin if this wasn't, but not by debate, not by compromise, not by rhetorical skills. I mean,

convince you of my way, but by the Holy Ghost. And then it says, to lay upon you no greater burden. I go back to verse 10. Now, therefore, why tempt ye God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? And Hank, what a great verse. Yeah, we remember in an earlier podcast about the yoke of the law. This is what the Savior has given us is something higher and inner and better. And those two verses together, I thought were really nice. It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us. Yeah, that is really great. Yeah. As I read the new For the Strength of Youth, A Guide for Making Choices, so many of those come down to the Holy Ghost. The way you dress, the way you talk, the media that you use.

Do what is good to the Holy Ghost. Don't just look for minimums of behavior, but look what the Spirit is teaching you about how to govern your life. So I like that. Seem good to the Holy Ghost. Well, and to us too. Mike, don't you see a principle here, at least in this story I see? Let's not burden people with more than they need to be burdened with in order to thrive. The yoke of take away. Let's add another activity. Let's add another meeting.

Let's add another. And instead of taking away, instead of lightening people's burdens. Now, don't get me wrong. Some of these activities are amazing and meetings are useful. But what is it with our tendency to keep adding on to people's burden?

And those of us who have lived a few years, remember when the church went through a simplification reduction mode, and we're seeing similar things nowadays where we go from a three-hour church to a two-hour church, and you see the prophets seeking to say, how can we best help our members come unto Christ in a way that fits where we are right now. It may have been back 20 years ago that going to church five to seven hours on Sunday was just the norm and it was expected. Not so much now. The beauty of the Lord saying, let's pull as much of the cultural

accoutrements out as we can and bring it down to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I think that's the direction that the First Presidency of Korma 12 are trying to bring us. Yeah, I think so too. You guys can respond to this. This is from President Packer. He said, I recently saw a woman respond when it was said of another, since she had a new baby, she really isn't doing anything in the church. You could almost see the baby in her arms protesting with emotion. She is doing something in the church. She gave that baby life. She nurtures it and teaches it. She's doing the most important thing that can be done in the church. Have you ever heard a woman say, my husband is a very good father, but he's never been a bishop or a state president or done

anything important in the church? And Elder Packer responds, what is more important in the church than being a good father? He says, I don't want anyone to use what I'm saying to excuse them in turning down an inspired call from the Lord. He says, I do want to encourage leaders to carefully consider the home, lest they issue calls or schedule activities which place an unnecessary burden on parents and families. He says, I read a letter recently from a young couple whose callings required them to hire a babysitter for them to attend all their meetings. It was very difficult for both of them to be home with the children at the same time. And Elder Packer says,

can you see something out of balance there? Every time you schedule a youngster, you schedule a family, particularly the mother. And he goes on and talked more about that. And it just reminded me of verse 10. We're tempted to yoke the neck of the disciples. And what was that verse, John, you added 28? Why place a greater burden than is necessary? What do you both think about that? It's remembering what God's work is. Remember, behold, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of us. And the entire purpose of the plan is to help us to learn and become as they are.

Now, President Packer's point of, hey, listen, don't use what I'm saying to turn down callings and this, that, and the other, I think is important. But I think what President Packer's primary point is, is that we need to remember what truly is part of God's work. And specifically when it comes to parents and children, is not that the very work that God is asking us to do. And so a willingness to sacrifice, a willingness to work through difficult times, but a remembrance of what's most important. And just watch out for that, right? That temptation to yoke the neck of a disciple. And part of that, I think, is learning to avoid, again, putting cultural expectations where God is putting doctrinal expectations. And I don't want culture to always have a bad feel. I love Thai culture. I love Polynesian culture. There's goodness that is in all cultures. But when that becomes a burden instead of a blessing,

then we have to say, okay, do what the church is doing and saying, okay, what is absolutely necessary? Is this necessary? Nope. Then this one can, it's not bad. We're not saying it's a bad thing. It's simply not necessary at this point. Elder Packer says most families try very hard, but some when burdened with problems of health and finance, simply become exhausted trying to keep up, and eventually they withdraw into inactivity. They do not see that they are moving from the one best source of light and truth of help with their family into the shadows where danger and heartbreak await. You're right, Mike. This chapter can be such a teaching chapter for a lot of the things

we're dealing with in our day. This is from Robert J. Matthews. He says, the resolution of this problem between the Gentiles and the Jews in the book of Acts gives our present generation a very informative model as to how to react when revelation confronts tradition and longstanding custom. Only living prophets could correctly handle this situation. Only living prophets can do so in our day. So it's great to see them dealing with a problem here. I would love the book of Acts to be, oh, it all worked out, right? And they had no problems whatsoever. But you can see revelation coming, then grappling and working, and personalities clashing with each other. I mean, that's going to happen at the end of this chapter, a little bit of a personality clash. It's this continual line

upon line process. You said it earlier, Hank, it's the Lord gives a commandment or gives a doctrine, but he doesn't often tell you, no now this is exactly how you implement that. He lets us grapple and lets us work. And it's through that grappling and through that work that we often grow, grow closer to him, grow closer to each other, and sometimes rub up against each other, as we're going to see with Barnabas and Paul. They didn't come to this council with all the exact same opinion. That's an important thing. I think sometimes we want to say to an award council or an estate council or even a family council, well, I don't want to disagree. I don't want to disagree because that creates hard feelings.

You can come in with your opinions. The First Presencing Corps of 12 are not wallflowers. Here's President Hinckley. No decision emanates from the deliberations of the First Presencing and the 12 without total unanimity among those concerned. At the outset in considering matters, there may be differences of opinions. These are to be expected. These are men coming from different backgrounds. They are men who think for themselves. But before a final decision is reached, there comes a unanimity of mind and voice. John, did you want to talk about this at all as a bishop?

Oh, man. I've had a ton of thoughts here. That's a challenge. I hope that people listening know that here's some same boat therapy. This is a challenge. When I was called to be a bishop, I had six children from 11 to two. I mentioned this to my stake president. I had more children than anyone else in the ward and they were all young. It was necessary for me to figure out what was necessary and what was not a burden. That was a challenge.

And I had a motto that I heard came from high places. And that was, it takes a really good meeting to be better than no meeting at all. We called it virtual ward council we were communicating all week using technology and our and texting and everything to try to do those nuts and bolts things virtually and then when we met we could talk about individuals and people and how to help and how to minister. And instead of calendaring and, and administering, we were wanted to minister at that time. But I just hope people listening know it's an ongoing challenge. And I was very concerned about how my wife felt about,

I mean, and I used to jokingly say, bye kids, I'm going to go tell others how to have eternal families. You know, leave my family. And try to make a rule that Bishopric ended at 10

and I was going to be home on my knees with family prayer. And that was a juggle and you'll have to ask my wife. Sometimes I did okay. Sometimes I didn't. I hope all of us out there will just do the best we can, but maybe take the spirit of this chapter in mind.

Is what's really necessary? Are we creating burdens? And it was helpful to ask that. Is this a cultural thing? Why are we doing this? Is this really going to help? And to wrestle with those questions and try to get the Holy Ghost to help us. All of us are going to be asked to sacrifice and be asked to do things, which sometimes, to be very frank, don't make a lot of sense.

And it's going to take the Spirit of God to help us. I had two experiences that have played a big role in my life. My sweetheart and I had just moved into a ward in Oregon, and the bishop came and he helped us move in. But on the first Sunday of church, he called us both in and he said, Brother Goodman, I'm calling you to serve as a young men's president. And I said, okay, wow. I said, okay, what's that?

He said, what's that? He didn't realize I was a convert. I joined the church after young men's. I went to a country that didn't have much young men's on my mission. And I came back as a young adult. I had never been to young men's. And he said, oh, well. And he explained it.

Every Wednesday night, you're going to go to mutual. And he started talking about responsibilities with priests and others. And I said, oh, Bishop, Wednesday nights, I can't be there. He said, what do you mean you? And by the way, I love my Bishop. He was six, probably six to 350 pounds, auto mechanic, big and gruff. And he said, oh my goodness, oh my goodness, swallow you. But I said, listen, I just got hired by the church educational system. And on Wednesday nights, I teach at the Oregon State Penitentiary. I've gone through FBI background checks. I can't get out of this. This is a commitment. And he looked at me and he said, tough, deal with it. And I said, this is my bishop. He said, tough, deal with it. I said, what do you mean? What do you want me to do? He said, listen, I'm not calling you as young men's president.

That came from God. I'm not telling you, you have to be there on Wednesday. I'm telling you that God has called you as a young men's president and you deal with it. Have a good day. And he kicked us out. That was it. I mean, this is our first Sunday in church. And so I was a young man's president for two years that never attended mutual, but we worked with the young man. Our young men began going to on missions where they hadn't been going on missions before activity rates rose. I saw the Lord's hand and it was one of those situations where the call didn't make any sense. But if it comes from the Lord, the Lord's going to help you.

It's kind of what you're saying, John. If the Lord is going to call you as a bishop, he's going to help you know what to do. When I was called as a BYU bishop, I said, President, do you realize that I work full time and I'm doing my PhD program full time? And he said, yes. but we prayed about it and it's right. And here's the letter from the first presidency saying it's right. And so for four years, I was a BYU bishop who was a full-time PhD student and a full-time professor. I was teaching at the time.

But it's what you said, John, the Lord made possible that that not only didn't hurt my family, it helped my family. I brought my three-year-old and my six-year-old and we did activation work and they were part of all of our meetings. It was, it was just a wonderful opportunity to be together. Yeah. That's one of the things I, cause I did say to the state president, you, you're calling the guy with more kids than anybody else in the world. And so my wrestle was, did you call me? Is this logical or was this revelation? When the stake president called me as a bishop, I did let him know that I was also a full-time student, PhD student, and I was also teaching full-time 40, 50 hours a week at BYU in the religion faculty.

And he expressed that he understood both of those and that he had prayed and received this as revelation and gone through the first presidency and that that call was extended. And what my family and I found throughout this experience was that the Lord was able to do with me in that calling what I couldn't have done myself without that calling. It helped my family and I to prioritize what was most important to us and to make sure that me as a dad and as a husband, that I put first what should have been put first. By no means am I trying to claim that I did it right all the time. I'm positive I didn't, but I learned lessons and I involved my family in amazing ways. My three-year-old daughter helped me activate several members of my ward because I'd take her with me on my visits. And my children were given the responsibility of choosing which nights I would do interviews. So I had to interview two, three nights a week. They would choose which ones and they'd say, okay, this week, daddy,

I've got a soccer game. So you can't do it on this day. And so my children always knew that they were first and I still had to do my work. I still had to do my calling, but they knew that I loved them and they knew that I put our family in that kind of a priorities position. And as a result, my children gained the amazing experience of interacting with a thousand BYU students for four years and the faith and the love and the power. They received primary lessons from BYU students. They were taught deacon's quorum lessons. My son was. It was one of those situations where the Lord knew what was going to be best. And it didn't make a lot of logical sense to me at the time,

but it was one of those situations where it was trust the Lord. And that doesn't always happen that way. One final quick story. I was serving as elders quorum president. I was serving in the Sunday school and I was in the middle at this time of my bachelor's degree. And a member of the bishopric came and said, we feel inspired to call you to serve in the choir. And I said, inspired to call me to serve in the choir. I'm pretty sure that's voluntary. Invite me to participate. Yeah. Yeah. But that wasn't what he said. And I said, is that what the bishop said? And he looked at me

and said, I think. I said, would you go back and ask the bishop? I said, I'm the elders quorum president. I'm a Sunday school teacher. I'm a full-time student and a dad. I said, if you and the bishop feel inspired, I'll do it. But I'd like to know that this was inspiration and not simply desperation. And so he went and talked to the bishop. He came back and the bishop said, you're officially not called to the choir. It's important that we share concerns with the Lord's servants, with the Lord, but that also that we trust that he'll help us to put first things first. He'll help us to keep our priorities straight. Yeah. And in that sharing, Mike, we need not be embarrassed. Sometimes we just want to keep up on the appearance of, hey, everything's fine, I can take on any calling. But say someone's struggling with a deep mental illness,

and the bishop might not know that. And if you put on a really good face, if you're able to act your way, which isn't a bad thing, right? It's not a bad thing to keep your problems to yourself, but let the bishop know. Inspiration needs information. Absolutely. I had a really cool experience with President Eyring once. It was kind of embarrassing. As in Hong Kong, I was serving as a mission president of Thailand and all the mission presidents had got together and he and a couple other members of the 12 and the 70 were training us. And Elder Eyring looked at us.

And you know, when he's starting to feel the spirit, he kind of gets quiet and kind of wags his finger a little bit. And he looked at us and he said, if you knew the price, the first presidency in the Quorum of 12 paid to receive the revelation we receive, you all would be embarrassed by how little you do. And he was talking to 15 mission presidents. And his point was, listen, the first presidency in Quorum of Twelve, we do massive amounts of research.

We get all the information we can. We speak with experts. We pay the price. And then we seek that revelatory confirmation. And he's saying, you mission presidents sometimes expect it to come just because you asked. He said, there's a certain lesson in Doctrine and Covenants to Oliver Cudry about that. And that's not the way it works. Usually the person extending a call has little mercy for us when we say we're busy because they're probably busier than we are. More busy. So when the stake president's calling me to be a bishop, he's probably busier than I am. And I'm trying to tell him, oh, you don't know how busy I am. But I like verse 28 because I think this idea of it

seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things. Can you imagine the wrestle they had with figuring that out. What are those necessary things and what is more of a burden? We should figure that out. I mean, they would have to wrestle with those ideas to try to get that right. And I feel like that's what you were just expressing. They wrestled with that. Mike, how old were you? I'm trying to do the math. Were you in your 30s as a mission president? When I was a mission, I was 33. Wow. Elder David Behate used to call us his babies because we were so young. When President Monson called me, he was the one who officially gave the call. He said, I'm calling you from the same desk that I was called as a mission president

when I was 31. So I thought, okay. So you can't argue. Yeah. Yeah. What do you do? You smile and say, okay, I'll go and do. So one of the things that a lot of the scholarly research talks about when it came to what

the three things that they chose were that these were things that came from Leviticus chapter 17 that were pertinent to both Gentile and Jew. Gentiles who lived amongst the Jews were expected to do these back then. It also has pertinence to what's called the Noah-keen precepts, which are the precepts that Noah basically put upon the people. And so they weren't shooting from the hip. They were doing what Elder D. Todd Christopherson said. They were referring to canonized scripture. They were referring to the teachings of prophets. And then they were seeking inspiration to know what was necessary. Awesome. I feel to repent a little bit when I say, I looked at the stake president and said, you called the guy with more kids than anybody else has.

Because that was the wrestle I had. Just as you have articulated, did you call me or did you really get this from God? If God asked me to, I guess maybe I can do it, but I sure don't feel like I can. And it was that sort of a wrestle that wasn't resolved day one. It took me some years to figure out if the Lord called me or if somebody just thought it was logical for whatever reason. Do you know what I mean? And I think a lot of us will go through that and wonder, and because of our own self-doubt,

I can't imagine why the Lord would call me. But what does Elder Holland say? All the Lord has ever had to work with is imperfect people. It must be terribly frustrating to him, but he deals with it. So I figured I was one of those frustrating people. It comes to the same concept of, Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief. I don't understand how this is going to work, but I'll trust you. Yeah. And give those church leaders that information. Don't be embarrassed or ashamed. Let them know what is really on your plate.

Let them know. You still may move forward with the calling like in so many times, but they might hold back and say, well, let's give you some time to work that out first, which is also not called. Yes. Yeah. No shame in that. My beloved mission president, Menlo Smith, counseled me when I went home from my mission. He said, get a job and take a full-time load in school. You will accomplish more. And it was such counterintuitive advice. And the thing he didn't realize is I had to get a job. It's not an option. I had to, but I did. I had to budget my time. And then I got a pretty demanding calling in my ward as well. And so I had school half the day and calling half the day, full-time job half the day.

And I ran out of half the days. There's not that many halves in a day. And so we all go through that. I just hope people can feel a little same boat therapy from all of us that struggle to do what the Lord's asked us. But I hope we feel the joy and the growth that comes from it. We said it earlier, I think God is more interested in our growth than he is in our comfort. And a lot of people are going, amen, right? Sometimes it's not comfortable. Since we've been talking about ward councils here,

this chapter doesn't specifically address this issue, but I wanted to bring this up from Elder Scott. He says, I have observed, particularly in international areas, although it often occurs domestically, that sisters do not participate openly in ward council meetings. Elder Scott says, this is most unfortunate because they have perspectives and experiences that are of immense value. When they can be encouraged to take part freely in ward council meetings, their ideas are always helpful and inspirational. This challenge, he says, can be resolved easily in the following way.

As the ward council meeting unfolds and specific suggestions are made, the presiding officer can call on individual sisters present by name, asking them to express their feelings regarding the matter. They will always respond to such an invitation. As they gain more experience in the environment of the ward council, they will learn to participate actively without the need for such an invitation. He goes on later and says, there is sometimes a complimentary blessing that comes to the home of priesthood leaders who observe the benefits that result from sister participation in ward council. These men can become more appreciative of the sacred role of their wives in their own home.

This is particularly true where local cultures tend to minimize or ignore the contribution of women in the home. So I know this chapter doesn't talk about that, but I thought it would be a good addition there from Elder Scott. I felt like young families. How many state conferences had I been to where I didn't hear a thing? I was in the back trying to manage children fussy, not hearing a lesson or anything. But boy, I hope those young families listening, you just hang in there. Because I think the Lord, they're not taking role, but the Lord sees you there. And he knows where your devotion is.

Those young parents are doing the work of the Lord. Is there any more important work? And those single mothers who round up kids and take them, what a message that sends to the Lord that you're willing to come and be there when sometimes you don't get much as far as learning from the meeting, but you came to worship and you came to take the sacrament and that's got to mean something very, very strong to the Lord. So I just, thanks for being where you're supposed to be

even when that's a wrestle. I've got a married daughter with three sons under the age of four. I don't know how much she ever gets from sacrament meeting, but I just look at her with adoration and honor her because she's showing these boys, this is where we're supposed to be, and this is where I'm going to be. Even though, as you said, John, I'm positive she's not getting a whole lot of spiritual food as she's wrestling three little guys that way. Beautiful. Mike, we don't want to let you go just yet. There's one

more event that happens in chapter 15, which is pretty interesting. It's a hard one to end on. Yeah, it is. I was thinking, I don't know how to end on this one. An interesting ending, yeah. So you've got this situation where Paul and Barnabas have decided, again, it's time to go and do some work with those that we have already taught, specifically word for word. And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord and see how they do. So it's this concept of retention. We're doing this to bring people to Christ. Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. And remember, to the best of our understanding, John Mark is Barnabas' nephew.

So there's a family connection here. Verse 38, But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia and went not with them to the work. And we don't know the background to why John Mark left. Why Mark left, we don't know if there was a legitimate reason, a less legitimate reason. But one way or the other, at least according to this, Paul did not think John Mark had done what he needed to do. In my research of this, that's quite a journey where they're going. They've got to go through some serious mountains. And so obviously I don't

know, but I can see Mark looking at that going, sometimes we picture, you know, Paul just walking along roads. I mean, this was, if you're going to go from Israel to Turkey, you know, Paul just walking along roads. I mean, this was, if you're going to go from Israel to Turkey, you've got to cross some serious mountains. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not strange for there to be disagreements amongst church leaders. As we've talked about already today, it's part of the process. It's part of being a human.

But this one ended up being a little bit sharper, maybe. Verse 39, and the tension was so sharp between them that they departed asunder one from another. So Barnabas took Mark and sailed into Cyprus. And Paul chose Silas, sometimes referred to as Silvanus, and departed being recommended by the brethren under the grace of God. And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the church. And so it's kind of interesting. They didn't come to agreement on John Mark.

That stayed a disagreement. What they did come to agreement on was we're going to go do the Lord's work. Barnabas took John Mark and they went to one part of the vineyard and Paul took Silas. They went to another part of the vineyard and they worked together. Now, can I give you some good news? Whatever the problem was, it was reconciled because Paul speaks with affection about Mark later in the epistles. And so whatever the issue was, it was resolved and the church leaders did exactly what they had to, which was to make sure that the church was taken care of while they were working through their personal issues. You can't just say, I'll text him later.

I mean, these guys, if they're going over mountains, that's, well, the last time I saw him, this is what happened. That's tough. Yeah, that is tough. What a real story. These are human beings. So Mike, you've walked us through Cornelius, our first Gentile convert. You've walked us through James being martyred, but Peter being delivered from prison, Saul and Barnabas going on these missions, and then the disagreement in the church over how to deal with Gentiles and Jews coming together into this new movement, this new church. Do you have any hopes for our listeners as we wrap this up? What do you hope they walk away with? Thank you. That's such an important question, especially with such disparate chapters, so many different issues.

To me, there are two overarching messages that come out of all of these chapters, these six chapters that they come again and again and again. And I'd say the first one is this, God is at the helm. With all of our weakness, with all of the challenges out there, with all of the difficulties, with the need to mesh together such different and disparate people and concepts and personalities and everything. God is at the helm. You watch the entire process and you watch how the Lord guided Peter and how the Lord guided Cornelius and how the Lord guided the leaders in Jerusalem. The Lord is able to do his work, is I guess what I would say. You don't have to fear that because he is leading and guiding his work, his church, his kingdom on earth. And then the second thing that I think is just crucial. Throughout all of these chapters, it always comes back and

refunnels to Christ, Him crucified and Him resurrected. No matter what the saga was, whether we're talking about the difficulties with Gentiles and Jews, whether we're talking about the prison time or James's situation, or no matter what the story was, if you look in those chapters, you look at what the message is that the prophets, the missionaries, the disciples are giving, it's always come to Christ. And so as I look at these chapters and I think through, okay, what's the take home? If I can remember that God is at the helm, that I don't have to fear. And at the helm isn't just of the church. At the helm of my life, if I'm willing to lay my heart on the altar, he'll do with me what needs to be done. I don't have to fear. I don't have to worry.

And two, he's going to do that as I come to the Savior and allow the Savior to do for me what I otherwise couldn't do myself. Dr. Mike Goodman, thank you. John, what a fantastic day. I've never really done this kind of depth into the book of Acts before, and I'm really enjoying it. Yeah, and what you just said is what it said in the manual lesson or two ago. This book could have been called The Acts of Jesus Christ Through His Apostles. So like you said, the Lord is at the helm. We believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved.

Acts 15, verse 11. We want to thank Dr. Mike Goodman for being with us today. It's been wonderful to have you. Mike, I'm sure we'll see you again. Thank you. want to thank Dr. Mike Goodman for being with us today. It's been wonderful to have you, Mike. I'm sure we'll see you again. Thank you. Happy to be here. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. We always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We have more of the Book of Acts coming up on Follow Him. Today's transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, We have more of the book of Acts coming up on Follow Him. To reach those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study, please subscribe, rate, review, or comment on the podcast, which makes the podcast easier to find.

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