followHIM - Acts 22-28 Part 2 • Dr. Scott Woodward • July 31 - Aug. 6

Episode Date: July 26, 2023

Dr. Scott Woodward explores Paul being the Lord’s messenger as the people become members of the new covenant and how the new congregations breach the various cultural and personal differences to become one people.00:00 Part II–Dr. Scott Woodward00:07 Bearing testimony in front of non-believers02:30 Oklahoma Women’s softball bears testimony of Jesus Christ03:14 Elder Ballard addresses Paul’s testimony06:12 Dr. Woodward shares a personal story of testimony and conversion09:43 Paul is turned over to Julius via ship11:25 How do we respond to prophetic warnings?16:21 Paul reminds those in a storm that hope is not lost17:43 Paul’s advice is heeded and lives onboard are saved18:47 A message of hope20:08 The island of Melita and Paul is bitten by a viper21:45 Assumptions of an Apostle24:19 Parallels drawn between Paul and Jesus29:35 Jesus’s suffering and Paul’s trials point us to Jesus31:47 The final wrestle of Acts33:41 Paul is preaching under house arrest in Rome34:29 The cliffhanger conclusion 37:04 Why does he quote Isaiah?39:59 The purpose of Luke’s record 41:52 The conversion of Karl G. Maeser44:03 What tradition tells us of the death of Paul46:20 Dr. Woodward’s takeaways from Paul and the Acts of the Apostles53:29 End of Part II–Dr. Scott WoodwardPlease rate and review the podcast.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.coFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Continue listening for part two with Dr. Scott Woodward, Acts chapter 22 through 28. I am inspired by how bold Paul is in front of these people. I don't know if I've ever shared a testimony like that outside of a congregation of members. We're very comfortable bearing our testimony, I think, in front of other believers. But when it comes to someone who doesn't believe, that can be scary. It says in the manual, when Paul delivered the powerful testimonies

recorded in Acts 22 and 26, he was being held prisoner by Roman soldiers. The people he spoke to had the power to condemn him to death. Yet he chose to boldly bear witness of Jesus Christ and the heavenly vision he had received. And then a couple of questions. What inspires you about his words? Consider the opportunities you have to share your testimony.

For example, do your friends know how you feel about Jesus Christ? Or when was the last time you told your family how you gained your testimony of the gospel? It goes to Joseph Smith in Joseph Smith history, talking about his own vision. It was a fact that I had beheld a vision. I have thought since that I felt much like Paul when he made his defense before King Agrippa and related the account of the vision he had when he saw the light and heard the voice. But still there were but few who believed him. Some said he was dishonest. Others said he was mad and he was ridiculed and reviled, but all this did not destroy the reality of his vision. He had seen a vision he knew he had and all the persecution

under heaven could not make it otherwise. And though they should persecute him to death, yet he knew and would know to his last breath that he had both seen a light and heard a voice speaking into him and all the world could not make him think or believe otherwise. And then he goes on, Joseph goes on to give his famous statement. I had seen a vision. I knew it. I knew that God knew it and I could not deny it. So let's talk about this just for a second. How can we be more bold in our testimonies? I'm glad you brought this up. I love that Elder Uchtdorf has brought up this idea of normal and natural ways. Just say what you think. I like the Clayton Christians and the Power of Everyday Missionaries. When someone says, how was your weekend? Don't think of Saturday, think of Sunday. And say, we had the best time at church. We had this really

interesting lesson of just normal and natural. Just tell people about it. I know this is a good time to bring up the Oklahoma women's softball team. Okay. I don't know if you guys have seen this, just a post game interview with three members of the Oklahoma women's softball and the TWA softball team. Someone was, you know, how important is this win? And this, this win that you just gotten everything in. these women were so natural and bold. You know, this really isn't that important to me. I can't remember exactly, so I'm paraphrasing. Apologies to Oklahoma women's softball if I get this wrong.

But they were just, you know, really, what's important to me is Jesus. What's important to me is the life that I've built and the understanding that I have of life and what's really important because of Jesus. What's important to me is the life that I've built and the understanding that I have of life and what's really important because of Jesus. And one after another, these three women, just very matter-of-factly, but very boldly said, winning's great, winning's awesome, love being here. The thing I build my life on is Jesus Christ and his gospel. And I was just like, wow, listen to that. And it was, they taught me, just tell them, we all feel this way. But like you said, Hank, sometimes it's a little harder just to come out that way, but they did. And it kind of went viral, maybe at least in some circles about, listen to these women, just matter of fact,

winning's awesome. It's great. But Jesus Christ is the most important. This discussion reminds me of Elder Ballard's talks. You guys are old enough to remember this. Way back in 2004, which I can't believe is almost 20 years ago, he talked about bearing pure testimony. And here's what he says. The Apostle Paul bore fervent testimony of Christ and converted many through his missionary labors. He did not shrink in bearing his testimony before King Agrippa. He says, the lesson I believe is clear. Having a testimony alone is not enough. In fact, when we are truly converted, we cannot be restrained from testifying. And so it was with apostles and faithful members of old. So it is our privilege, our duty,

our obligation to declare the things which we know to be true. He continues, miraculous things happen when members join with missionaries and share pure testimony with those who are not members of the church. As we stand together, the Lord will help us find many more of his sheep who will know his voice as we unitedly share our testimonies with them. He talks about the night that Parley P. Pratt visits Hiram Smith. And if you study the history of the church, you know how crucial both of those men are to the restoration. But Parley becomes quite a missionary, he says, because Hiram testified fearlessly of the divine truth that has been revealed to his brother Joseph. Then he tells this story, President Ballard.

Joseph Kimber, a humble new convert in Thatcham what ignited the fire of belief in 17-year-old Henry Ballard's heart and caused him to ask to be baptized. Generations of the Ballard family are the beneficiaries of that humble testimony. Just one farmhand telling another farmhand what he believed turns into the Ballard family, right? Who have a legacy in the church. That reminds me, Hank, of 1 Peter 3.15, be ready always to give an answer to anyone that asketh the reason for the hope that is in you. To kind of even prepare for that, what if someone were to ask me, what would I say? Just that idea in a normal, natural way. This is what gives me such hope and happiness and helps me be of good cheer in life, like that softball team. I think we can all probably say or trace in our family history

to a place where either we or our ancestors came into the church because of someone who was willing to be bold and testify in natural, normal ways, in ways that they didn't apologize for. Just a quick story of a 17-year-old girl I admire with my whole heart. Her name's Nancy. Missionaries came to her door. She was interested. Her family listened to the first lesson or so.

And then afterwards, they're like, this is ridiculous. She said, no, I'm very interested. And so she continued to listen. It got so bad that her family got some anti, they called them anti-Mormon back then, some anti-Mormon people to come over to the house and to tell Nancy why this was a delusion, why she was an idiot to join this church. Her boyfriend told her that you've either got to choose between this church or me. She stood up after hearing everybody. And she said, thank you for all of your concern. Thank you all for caring about me.

And then she just bore her simple, beautiful testimony. And she said, I'm going to join this church. And I'm going to leave soon. I'm probably never going to see any of you all again. And she does. She leaves her home. She goes to Nauvoo where she meets the prophet Joseph. She meets a guy named James Woodward. That's how I come into the church because Nancy, this beautiful,

courageous 17-year-old girl is willing to listen to humble testimony. And then she's willing to stand to her family and say, I feel this deeply in my soul and I got to follow this wherever it leads. And that's been a blessing to generations. So I will always praise Nancy McCurdy's name. Scott, thank you so much for that. That was really powerful. I have the same feeling towards the two girls. I don't know their names, but two girls who invited my mom to seminary. The one time she had gone to church in her whole life was to be baptized.

So she'd gone to church once before she was 17 and 16, I think. And these two girls said, why don't you come to seminary with us? And she said, they won't want me in there. She said that she smelled like cigarettes. Her parents both smoked heavily. And she said, they won't want me in there. And they said, oh, come on over. You'll like seminary. It's like church, but fun. And so she went with them and she kept going. Finally, the teacher said, you can't keep sloughing whatever class you're missing to come to this class. So you better sign up. So she signed up. And from that, ended up becoming active in the church and going to BYU, meeting my dad. Two girls who said, do you want to come to seminary?

Cindy, do you want to come to seminary? Changed my world. So I think those are names we praise, people we praise for being bold. I don't even think they knew they were being bold. I think they just were thinking, hey, she should come with us. And they're not all success stories, right? Like Paul, Paul didn't move Agrippa. But they're not always success stories. But Paul understood that, you know, you preach.

You throw the seed out there, yeah. Yeah, you throw the seed and let God do what God does. Let the Spirit do what the Spirit does. Well, shall we go to Rome? Let's do it. We're on chapter 27 now, right? Yes, 27.

How did the ancient Romans cut their pizza? What's the answer, John? I don't know. With lethal Caesars. it's a dad joke that's a beautiful joke and for the for anyone who's still listening to the podcast after that thank you for staying with us all right So here's what happens. Chapter 27. It's determined, verse 1, that they should go to Italy. And they turn Paul over to a centurion named Julius.

And they get in the boat. There's like 266 people in the boat. Many of those are prisoners. And they're on their way to Rome. They go island hopping, verse 4, to Cyprus. Then down slowly, verse 7 says. They come to this place in verse 8 called Fair Havens. But this isn't like the best time of year to go.

This is probably October. In fact, some people, some scholars have said this is October 5th. They say that because of verse 9. Now, when much time was spent and the sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already passed, Paul admonished them. So there's that little clue right there. They think this is about Yom Kippur in the year, I think it's 58 AD. And so that would have been right about that first part of October. So dangerous time to sell, especially when you get into November and December, those are in January. Those are like, no, don't sell,

no sale zones. So this is kind of flirting with, okay, we're getting there. And Paul says, verse 10, Sirs, this is the prisoner speaking up, prisoner raising his hand. Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading in the ship, but also of our lives. Nevertheless, the centurion, Julius, he believed the master of the ship and the owner of the ship more than those things which were spoken by paul i think it's cool that luke is kind of slowing down here i think there's a little less lesson he wants us to gather here in verse 12 he says because the haven was not commodious to winter in there's some discomfort if they stayed there right the more part advised to depart thence let's just pause for a second. So let me throw

out a scenario. Suppose an apostle says that a particular choice might be dangerous and will lead to hurt and much damage. What should we do? We have a choice. And then you've got an expert, the master of the ship, and you've got a majority that Paul calls verse 11, the more part. So I just throw this question out. It could be a fun discussion to have as a family or Sunday school class. But what's the danger of believing experts and the majority more than a prophet of God? Here you go. This is a perfect setup. This story sets this up.

It was not commodious, verse 12 says, to winter there. So what the apostle is suggesting is something that's inconvenient. There's an inconvenient thing he's saying. I think we should stay here, though it will be inconvenient because I perceive with both prophetic insight and some seafaring experience himself, that there is going to be hurt and much damage. But the more part go against that. So let's kind of watch how this plays out. So verse 13, when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence, they sailed close by Crete. See, no problem. Paul was paranoid. Everything's fine. But verse 14, but not long after there arose against it a tempestuous wind

called Euroclidon. Kind of one of those'd call it a Nor'easter today, right? Northeastern wind coming down. And when the ship was caught and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive. Uh-oh, so now what's driving the ship? They've lost control. They've lost control of the ship. So you can kind of moralize all through this.

What's the moral of the story so far? Like they didn't listen to the prophet. They thought everything's gonna be fine. So they went into a place where you lose some control, right? Once you get into the ship, you lose some of your control. So don't get into ships that apostles warned you not to get into is one of the things I'm thinking of, right? And sometimes those could even be relationships. How's that one, John? Is that okay? Is that a good one? Are we banging on exactly what Luke was hoping we'd get out of this? Probably not. But I think there's just some interesting insights here.

And then verse 16, running under a certain island, which is called Claude. We had much work to come by the boat. They're starting to try to get this thing under control. You start throwing stuff overboard here. And verse 18, and we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest the next day, they lightened the ship. And now they're throwing more over. And so it's just an interesting moment. And verse 21, Paul, I don't know if he had his arms folded across his chest or not when he said this,

but after long abstinence, I think Paul was biting his tongue, biting his tongue, but then he couldn't hold it anymore. And he said, sirs, you should have hearkened unto me and not have loosed from Crete and to have gained this harm and loss. You should have listened to me. So I think it's just kind of interesting, this idea. Sometimes we gamble with apostles' words and warnings, and sometimes we lose. And we could upload all kinds of stories here of people that we know. We could probably talk for hours about people who've gambled with the words of apostles.

They have met with much hurt and much damage. I'm thinking about such advice as just simple like in my teens, right? Avoid serious dating in your early teenage years. Don't get into that ship. Pornography is harmless fun for couples, right? That can help strengthen your marriage, some experts say. Some experts are saying that the prophets don't know what they're talking about. And there's groups of people that are needing to choose and they're getting into this ship of the non-heteronormative value ship, the redefinition of the family ship, what modern prophets are calling the disintegration of the family. Marriages are on the decline. Divorces are on the rise. Almost 50% of children today are born out of wedlock. And we have prophets like Paul saying, we warn

that the disintegration of family is going to bring upon individuals communities and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets like there's a game there's gambling that's happening with the words of prophets about some serious issues some ships that experts and maybe our own majority at least the groups that we associate with some of our majority might might, let's go with the experts, not prophets on these things. That's a gamble that too many have taken and they've met with much hurt and harm. Great application. Absolutely.

That's really good. They go from being really confident to verse 20, all hope that we should be saved was taken away. You can see them kind of going step by step. It's getting worse. It's getting worse. It's getting worse. He says, you should have listened to me. But many people in those situations are looking back going, I should have listened. I should have taken that counsel more seriously. Yeah. There was neither sun nor stars. The light starts to go and the hope is lost. And again, I don't know if Luke was writing this with some metaphor in mind, but he is slowing down enough with this story to help us see these details where I wonder what he

was hoping we'd get out of this. That's one application that comes to mind for me. Absolutely. But then there's a twist in the story. Not all hope is lost, at least. So Paul says in verse 22, now I exhort you to be of good cheer. I think you learned that from Jesus, didn't he?

Everything's going wrong. We've made dumb choices. We've got into ships we shouldn't have got into, follow people we shouldn't have followed. And Paul still says, be of good cheer. For there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship. Yeah, ship's a goner, but yeah.

For there stood by me this night, the angel of God, whose I am and whom I serve. And here's what the angel said. Fear not, Paul, thou must be brought before Caesar and lo God has given thee all them that sail with thee. Oh, wherefore sirs be of good cheer, says the second time, for I believe God. That's where Paul's drawing his string. I believe God that it shall be even as it was told me. We are going to be cast upon a certain island somewhere. So I saw that too. So here we go. So they, so they're, yeah, hold on.

So they, they continue to drive their drive. They're being driven. They're starting to drop anchors, try to slow the ship down. So it doesn't violently smash into rocks on the shore. That's something they would do. They would drop an anchor. It's slow. And then it would get to the tension point where it would break the ship. Then they'd cut the anchor, drop another anchor. They start doing that in verse 28, 29. And then some people started to try to escape. Paul warns in verse 31, if you get out of the ship, you cannot be saved.

It's not going to happen. Do not leave this ship now. We got to take this the full way. And so they cut the escape ships off. They fall into the water. So now they're in it for good. Paul then says, wherefore I pray you, I know you've been fasting for a while. It must be a lot of Jews on this ship.

Take some meat for this is for your health. And then he says, look at verse 35. Does this look familiar? And when he had thus spoken, he took bread and gave thanks to God in presence of them all. And when he had broken it, he began to eat. Then were they all of good cheer.

And they also took some meat. And that's when he gives us the number. There's 266 souls. Sounds like there's been a bit of a mutiny on this ship. And Paul's in charge now. Do you know what I love about that is, is right after that, you should have hearkened unto me. And they're all going, yeah, you're right. And right after that, be of good cheer.

Because now I think they are listening. If I was right there and listen to me now, be of good cheer. There shall not any loss of life. Oh, okay. I'm going to believe him this time. Yeah. When all hope is taken away, then all of a sudden your ears are pricked, right? Ready for some message of hope.

I love verse 25. My goodness. I believe God. That's a sermon in a sentence. Be of good cheer for I believe God that it shall be even as it was told me like to encourage young adults with their patriarchal blessing do you believe him do you believe what he said what more can he say than to you he hath said like the hymn says right i believe god it was as he told me that's a great verse they then they do shipwreck they shipwreck in verse 41 falling into a place where the two seas

met they ran the ship aground and the four parts stuck fast and the the rest was broken with the violence of the waves and so the soldiers say let's kill all the prisoners and then the centurion julius is like no no no no because he wanted to save one of them paul he says no willing to save paul he kept them from their purpose and commanded that they, which could swim, should cast themselves into the sea and get to land and the rest, grab onto some boards. And so they come, all of them, everyone lives, 266 escape safely. They make it to this island. There they are. Today, we know that island as Malta, right? Or Melita, as it says in our Bible maps. And that's just now south of Italy.

So they're close, but they're not quite there yet. We have one chapter left. So they get to this island called Melita, verse 1 says, and there's a barbarous people there that showed us no little kindness. Meaning they did show us kindness. They showed us a lot of kindness. They kindled a fire. They received us, everyone, bunch of prisoners. That's a nice show of faith by those people,

the people of the island of Melita. They received us, everyone, because of the present rain, because of the cold. And so Paul goes out to gather some firewood. This is a fun story. And he lays them on the fire and there was a snake he didn't know about. There was a viper out of the heat that came and just struck him right on the hand, fastened on his hand.

The people of the island knew that snake as a venomous snake. And so when the barbarians saw the venomous snake hanging on his hand, they said among themselves, so here you go, right? You see something. Now you have to tell yourself a story to make sense of it. Let's see what story they say. They say, oh, no doubt this man is a murderer, right? Otherwise, why would bad things happen to somebody, right?

It has to be something bad they did. No doubt this man is a murderer whom though he had escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. He thought he could escape his judgment, but it has come. But Paul shakes the beast off into the fire. He felt no harm. How be it? They all looked when he should have swollen or fallen down dead suddenly.

But after they had looked a great while and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and they said he was a God. Wow. He's gone from murderer to God in just a couple of verses. The stories we tell ourselves about people, about in this case, and again, another story about an apostle, assumptions about an apostle. Paul's going to become very popular on this island because he actually is going to heal the chief's father, the chief of the island named Publius, heals him in the name of God,

lays hands on him, verse eight, heals him. Then others, when they found out that Paul could do that, they bring their sick to him, he heals him, right after the manner and image of Jesus Christ. They stay there for three months on that island, verse 11 says, and then they head off. Finally, going up to Syracuse, Regium Putioli is where they land. And then they go over to

three taverns, the Forum of Appius in Rome. And you can see this on the Bible map really clearly, they eventually get to Rome. Now, I want to point something out before we talk about Rome that I find absolutely fascinating. I want to know your guys' thoughts on this. We know that Luke is the author of both the book of Luke, the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. And some scholars have noticed that there are many parallels between the book of Luke and the book of Acts that seem deliberate on Luke's part. And I guess my question for you to consider as I go through a few of these is why is Luke doing this? Okay? So for instance,

he's going to compare Paul and Jesus, but he doesn't do it overtly. You just kind of kind of catch it. And so if I do this right side by side, this will be easy. So for instance, Jesus's traveling ministry in Luke chapters five through nine, where he's in Galilee for a long while, and then his long travel narrative to Jerusalem is paralleled in the book of Acts in chapters 13 through 20 by Paul's traveling ministry, his missionary journeys. So far, I'm like, I don't know if I'm convinced, right? But then these keep adding up. Watch this. Then in Acts chapter 20, verse 22, right? Paul says, I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there. That should echo back to Luke 9, 51, when Jesus steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem all

of a sudden. No one understood why Jesus has to go to Jerusalem. Only suffering awaits him there. He told it to his disciples multiple times. They never understood him. None of Paul's friends see why he needs to go to Jerusalem. Only suffering awaits you there, Paul. And from the moment Paul determines to go to Jerusalem, there are seven references to him going to Jerusalem that Luke mentioned seven times. After Jesus set his face to go to Jerusalem, seven times, seven references to Jesus going to Jerusalem. Jesus is initially received positively in Jerusalem. So is Paul. Jesus had built up a bad reputation in Jerusalem among the leadership, however. Paul had built up a bad reputation in Jerusalem among Jewish Christians. Upon his arrival to Jerusalem, Jesus goes initially right to the temple. Upon his arrival,

Paul goes initially to the temple. Paul was seized by a crowd. Then he undergoes four separate trials, the Sanhedrin, the governor Felix, Festus, the new governor, and then Herod Agrippa. Jesus was seized by a crowd in Gethsemane. Then he undergoes four separate trials, Sanhedrin, Pilate, who was the governor, which he was in the same position as Felix. And then he goes to Herod and he comes back to Pilate again. Both Pilate and Herod say that Jesus has done, quote, nothing worthy of death and should be released Both Pilate and Herod say that Jesus has done, quote, nothing worthy of death and should be released. Both Felix and Herod Agrippa say that Paul has done, quote, nothing worthy of death, exact same phrase, and should be released were it not that

he appealed to Caesar. On the boat, Paul takes bread, gives thanks, and when he had broken it, he began to eat, almost the exact phrase that Luke used to describe Jesus at Passover, quote, he took bread and gave thanks and break it. A Roman centurion of all people acknowledged that Paul was a good man and he sought to favor Paul and to save Paul. And remember Luke highlights that it was a Roman centurion at the cross of all people who acknowledges that Jesus surely was a righteous man. And in this narrative, as you continue to watch these narratives build,

the crucifixion moment that parallels with Paul is the storm at the sea and then the snake bite on the island. This is interesting. Why does he point out that little detail about the snake bite and why all that detail about the stormy ocean? So there's a stormy ocean. So in the Jewish style, you got to upload kind of Jewish thinking here. The ocean represented like the chaos waters where evil things would come. There were monsters of the sea. When God showed that he had power over the waters, that was a really big deal for the Jews.

When he splits the Red Sea, he had power to control the monster. They'll later talk about that as they write about God, like, how do they say, defeating the monster of the sea kind of a thing. Like the sea was evil. It was suspicious. It was chaotic. And so the stormy ocean narrative here where Paul and everyone in the ship is being, it's almost as if the ocean was trying to swallow them up, right? And it could not swallow Paul because of the protection of God. Nor could the venomous snake bite, which the snake, right, in Jewish thinking, this is the epitome of evil. The snake bite couldn't thwart his mission. That's interesting, right?

Neither the dark powers that were let loose on Jesus in Gethsemane. I think about the flood. Orson F. Whitney once called it the flood of hell's dark gloom poured out upon the head of Jesus Christ. Satan did his worst in Gethsemane to try to swallow him up, right? The dark powers let loose on Jesus in Gethsemane likened to this ocean moment.

And then death on the cross, the snake bite moment, right? The snake bite where, remember the prophecy in Genesis where the Lord said to Adam and Eve that a seed, a seed would come from the woman who would receive a bite, would receive a bite from the snake on his heel. But he would with that heel then crush the head of that snake. And so the snake bite motif as a representation of,

though Jesus was bitten by the snake, right? This would be his death. The poison didn't take. Oh death, where is thy sting? Where's the poison of that bite? Through his resurrection, Jesus shakes the snake off into the fire. It just seems like Luke is doing this like on purpose. One scholar named Charles Talbert has compiled the longest list of these parallels. He calls this an architectural pattern of correspondences between the career of Jesus and the life of Paul here. Why is Luke doing this? Because I think what he's not doing is he's not saying Paul is basically equal to Jesus. I don't think Luke's doing that. I don't think he would do that.

I don't think anyone, Paul included, would feel comfortable with that. So if that's not what he's doing, why is he doing that? And Luke never answers that question. And so we get to kind of speculate. Any thoughts on that? Pete Sometimes we notice patterns and it's evidence of design. Evidence of design in the way he wrote it is that he's trying to show us something this is a pattern of christ that somebody would notice that is awesome it makes me think i gotta notice things more there are some very careful readers of scripture yeah and and that these were carefully written testimonies as well i think that impresses me but why not show a pattern of a follower of christ

that's in the shadow of christ. Like you said at first, nah, okay. But then it just keeps going. You think, yeah, look at that. Yeah.

Look at that. Yeah. I read 12 to you guys. There's more than 12, but after 12, you start to think, I think Luke was doing something on purpose here. I wonder if this is Luke's way of saying,

if you're going to be a disciple of Christ, you will like Paul, you got to follow the footsteps of Christ. You have to endure like Christ. You have to suffer in some ways like Christ as his disciple. Yeah. And Jesus said that to Peter that you're going to go through some of the same things I did. Jesus said that to Peter at the end.

And here's Paul going through it. So it's got to be pointing us to something. Luke is tantalizing that way. We'll talk about how he ends his book too. He does it again the second time. I'm ending here in just a moment, but I think this is just worth thinking about, worth savoring, hoping we make some connections between Paul and Jesus. What was that name again? Charles? Yeah, this is Charles Talbert. Maybe Luke is saying disciples model their lives after Christ, especially in trials. They submit to God. They abandon themselves to God.

And look at Paul saying, be of good cheer. As Jesus in John, Be of good cheer. I've overcome the world, Paul. So, well, we're going to make it through all this. And I like what you're saying there. And Hank, you mentioned this as disciples of Jesus. And that's where my mind goes is that Luke's probably underlining the idea that when people follow Jesus' way, like their stories might begin to look like his story.

This is the cost of discipleship in some ways. The meaning behind the metaphor of taking up your cross to follow Jesus, what Paul called in his letter to the Philippians, he called it the fellowship of Christ's sufferings. This is how the kingdom of God is built by people who are willing to sacrifice. It's not through tanks, missiles, and grenades, or even a constant stream of uninterrupted blessings. That's not what it means to be in the kingdom of God, but it means that through patience,

diligence, and perseverance, and long suffering, like both Jesus and Paul experienced, like this is how the kingdom of God is built. Kingdom people are the kind of people that are willing to get in those trenches and to do what Jesus did. So I love that.

This is a fun wrestle. Luke is asking us to do this very thing, to have this very conversation, I think. I'm reminded of the Liberty Jail. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. You're going through tough things, Joseph. I did too. Okay, you ready for his last thing? The last little Let's do it. Yeah, let's wrestle. So the book of Acts ends this way. In Acts 28, Paul makes it

to Rome. He's delivered in verse 16 over to the captain of the guard there, but he's allowed to dwell by himself with a soldier. He's basically on house arrest again, but Paul has to pay the rent for the house. He doesn't waste any time. In verse 17, he reaches out to all the Jews in Rome. He wants all the leadership of the Jews to come and meet him so that he can explain himself and get ahead of the story. He even asked them, I don't know what you guys have heard. Some people in Jerusalem have spoken against me saying that I'm going against the law, that I'm going against Israel, but I'm telling you that that's not true. It's for the hope of Israel, verse 20, that I am bound with this chain. And they answer him and

say, we haven't heard anything about this, man. We neither received letters out of Judea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came showed or spake any harm of thee. So we want to hear it straight from you. Ah, what a good way to, this is good, right? Verse 22, we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest. It's not refreshing considering where we've been from chapter 21. We want to hear what thou thinkest for as concerning this sect. Again, that's a reference to the Christianity sect of Judaism. They're not two separate religions yet. It's just a branch of Judaism for this. This sect, as concerning this sect, we know that everywhere it is spoken against. So we want to hear it from you. We've heard the bad rumors. We've heard the bad people, nay, saying this. We've heard the gossip, but we want to hear it

from you. So I love the maturity of that. Then verse 23, and so they all came together and he expounded and he testified. What does he testify? The kingdom of God. That's his message. The kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, the king of the kingdom, both out of the law of Moses, out of the prophets from morning until evening. He didn't have anything else to do for him. This is his happy place. People are coming to the house. He was free to teach and speak. There was just a Roman soldier there making sure there's no shenanigans.

He preached and people came to listen. And when they agreed, not among themselves, verse 25 says, they departed after that Paul had spoken one word. Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our father saying, and then he uses a verse that they took as kind of insulting. Some of them did go to this people and say,

hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand and seeing ye shall see and not perceive for the heart of this people is waxed gross and the ears dull of hearing and their eyes have closed. So there's some people that don't believe what Paul's saying. And he's like, you guys remind me of I say the first and that didn't make him friends or influence people there verse 28 be it known therefore unto you here's my final word to you guys he says that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles and that they will hear it and when he had said these words the Jews

departed and had great reasoning among themselves. Now here's the tantalizing ending to Luke's book of Acts, verse 30 and 31. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, paying the rent himself, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ with all confidence, no man forbidding him. And we are left on a cliffhanger. Luke has spent more than like, well, ever since chapter 20, building up, Paul's going to go to Jerusalem. Then in Jerusalem, he learns he's going to go to Rome. He's going to go to Rome and the Lord appeared to him. He's going to go to Jerusalem. Then in Jerusalem, he learns he's going to go to Rome. He's going to go to Rome and the Lord appeared to him.

He's going to go to Rome. The gospel's got to go to every nation, right? That was set up at the very beginning and now he's in Rome and then no conclusion. And now what happens? No conclusion. The camera pans away with Paul preaching in a house that he's renting with a Roman soldier standing by. Wow. What? What?

What? How does it, does he ever got talked to Caesar? He appealed to Caesar. Does he ever talk to Nero? Luke, this is the heart of the world. This isn't the,

this isn't the whole world. He's gone to Rome, but like what happens brother? And so, you know, given Luke's care as a writer, a lot of scholars are convinced that this open-ended ending is clearly intentional. Again, that's a good wrestle to think

about. Like Luke's doing this on purpose. He's not telling us why. And we didn't have to just think about it and think, okay, so why, why did he end like that? He's such a careful writer. Why did he leave some of these ends untied, these loose ends? Why is he not tying them all up? So again, I will ask you too, what do you guys think? What does this do to your mind and your heart? Some have called this the most odd ending of any book in scripture. Mark doesn't even have an ending, so that doesn't really count.

But this is a deliberate, ending like on purpose you know it's kind of up there with the book of jonah that just that kind of ends without resolving the story but yeah most authors want to tie all the loose ends together but luke is like bye yeah wait what i love that he quotes that Isaiah verse that we first hear it, at least if we're reading the Bible chronologically, we hear it right after the parable of the sower. Why are you teaching parables? And he gives that Isaiah prophecy. Well, some will see, some will not hear.

I've noticed that that call of Isaiah is repeated repeated in every one of the gospels and here it must have been important to him it's in matthew i wrote my margin matthew 13 15 mark 4 12 luke 8 10 and luke 12 40 and then here it is and i just i love this the last part of it just sounds like this is the the last they i think means otherwise they could see with their eyes here with their ears, understand with their heart and should be converted. And I should heal them. I mean, who wouldn't want that?

That's what the Lord wants. See with their eyes here with their ears, understand with their heart, be converted and be healed. Any thoughts on why that's in every one of the gospels and here? I've just always thought how interesting. They must have all known the calling of Isaiah in their hearts or something. It's provocative, right? It's intentionally provocative. It's like, are you guys hearing this? Are you picking up what I'm putting down? This is the most important message in the world. And you have so much internal noise that's getting in the way of you being able to hear it.

Humble yourselves, humble yourselves, empty your assumptions. Try to hear this as if for the first time without all your baggage. Otherwise you fit Isaiah's prophecy. You fit his condemnation of those who just insist on not getting the the true story uh the resisting the true story i think also in matthew 13 jesus says who hath ears to hear let him hear it's like some will hear this some won't but boy if you could hear you could see with your eyes hear with your ears understand with your heart be converted and be healed it almost seems like lu Luke then pulls that here.

He's saying he ends verse 30 and 31 with his cliffhanger and he doesn't resolve it, leaving the reader to have to do something. You and I now have to do some work to bring this book to a conclusion. And so I think that's interesting, John, that he's kind of pulling a Jesus moment here where sometimes Jesus would tell a story

and then not narrate the moral. Just let people kind of wrestle with it. I thought of what you taught us in the very beginning of our interview where Acts is designed to parallel what Jesus said. You will teach in Jerusalem, in Judea and Samaria and the uttermost parts of the earth. And the last verse is, he's in the uttermost parts of the earth. So maybe in Luke's mind, he's like, I did tell you this story. It's the story of Jesus. It's not the story of Paul. This is what Jesus said would happen.

And it happened. Yeah. That goes right along with this great quote from a scholar named Ben Witherington, who's written a whole book just on the book of Acts and a great thinker. He said, the ending of the book of Acts makes it clear that Luke's purpose wasn't simply to chronicle the life and death of Paul, but rather the rise and spread of the gospel and of the social and religious movement to which it gave birth. Luke, through both Luke and Acts, has provided a theological history that traces the spread of the good news from Jerusalem to Rome, from the eastern edge of the Roman Empire into its very heart. And then he says, Rome was not seen in Luke's day as the edge of the

known world. That's Spain. And so the reader would know very well that Jesus's mission to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth, see Acts 1 verse 8, was still ongoing in his own day, right? So when the reader sits down to read this, they're like, well, we haven't got there yet. And Luke's like, exactly. So for Luke, so he says, for Luke, Paul's story is really about the unstoppable word of God, which no obstacle, no shipwreck, no snake bite, no Roman authorities could hinder from reaching the heart of the empire and the hearts of those who live there. And then from there, it would go as the gateway into the ends of the earth. It's almost like Luke is including and challenging the reader to consider your own ending. How are you going to help this story end? What do you want to do about this?

The story isn't over, as you can see. We can all participate in it. We can help spread the kingdom of the risen King to the ends of the earth. What are you going to do about it? We made it to the heart. Yeah, what are you going to do? Dear reader, the story is not finished. Will you help spread the good news about the risen King, Jesus Jesus Christ to all the world? Because we're not there yet. Something like that. I like that. I like that a lot. know anything about you, but we do want to hear about Christianity because everyone is speaking

against it. I think that's fascinating that one, they have the maturity to go not believe everything they hear that they might be like, Hmm, I want to hear it from an actual Christian. I want to hear it from somebody who actually knows the story. And it reminded me of Carl G. Mazur. He talked about his being introduced to the church. He said, it was a very dark period of my life when I was searching for a foothold among the political, social, philosophical, and religious opinions of the world. My attention was called to a pamphlet on the, quote, Mormons, written by a man named Bush. The author wrote in a spirit of opposition to that strange people, but his very illogical deductions and sarcastic invectives aroused my curiosity,

and an irresistible desire to know more about the subject of the author's anadmed version caused me to make persistent inquiries concerning it. He says, so I wrote a friend who lived in Copenhagen because I knew that missionaries in the Mormon church were maintained, particularly in the Scandinavian countries. Then he ends up joining the church. And if you don't know, he has some impact. Carl G. Mazur in Provo, Utah starts a little school called Brigham Young Academy, which eventually becomes Brigham Young University. So fascinating that the only thing these people in Acts have heard about Christianity has been negative,

but it ends up leading to them wanting to know more about the message. Oh, if we could have that mindset, right? If we could just have that mindset. I desire to hear from those that are being maligned. Like, I want to hear your story. i mean i'm here so basically what from what i understand what you just said hank is we have brigham young university because some anti-mormons pamphlet yeah that piqued the curiosity of carl g maser that's awesome yeah we should never fear those things

i guess just one last thing scott why don't we talk to our audience about, we all, I think in our minds think, I thought Paul was beheaded in Rome. How do we know that? Is that a scripture or is that a tradition? Yeah. So Luke never tells us how Paul died. There's a tradition that he was killed in Rome. It's an early tradition, but it's not scriptural.

Some people think he actually ends up going from Rome to Spain. A lot of people think that 2 Timothy was written after this. And then he tells Timothy that he had been in the lion's mouth, which some people think, some scholars think that's him saying he survived his interview with Nero. But there's a little bit of, right, we have to do some deduction there. Does he make it to Spain? Some early Christian fathers say he made it all the way to Spain. Luke never tells us that. It's not in scripture. We don't have any of his epistles that confirm that. Paul's memory kind of now starts to get shrouded in a little bit of legend after this. How did he die exactly? We don't know. Is there strong legends

about that? Yeah, there are. That he was beheaded. How do we know exactly? We don't know. Is there strong legends about that? Yeah, there are. That he was beheaded. How do we know that? Tradition, hearsay, there's just, you know. And so this is where it kind of starts to get a little murky. But yeah, Luke doesn't think that's an important part of the story. Luke thinks this is about Jesus and about the spread of his word. And as long as Luke was a fit messenger to show how Jesus was using an apostle to do that, awesome. But apparently his point was made by the end of Acts 28 and he has no more to say about Paul. So it's a little tantalizing. Wish we had more. That's tradition. Scott, before we let you go, I want to read something from the

Come Follow Me manual and then ask you a question. The manual says, as Paul's ministry clearly shows, difficulties in our lives are not a sign that God disapproves of us or the work we are doing. In fact, sometimes it is during the difficulties that we feel his support most strongly. And then it asks us to kind of review Paul's life and how the Lord stood by him and to ask ourselves how the Lord has stood by us. I like that summary. We've been studying the life of Paul here for the last month. What do you hope our listeners get out of studying the life of Paul and in particular, maybe these last few chapters? Gosh, there's so many takeaways from Paul.

I'd highly recommend any of your listeners download a copy of N.T. Wright's book on Kindle called Paul, a biography. That's what I want to say. It's like 900 pages. That's what I want to say. No, my takeaway, we tried to drop a few today, is just how impressive he is as a disciple, showing us what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And it seems that Luke is intentionally trying to say, no, like he's following Jesus, almost like phrases and words and circumstances. So I think Luke wants us to see that for sure.

You know, let me end with a quote. I know this is a quote that some of your previous guests have mentioned, but it's so good. I just want to highlight it one more time. This is from Elder Holland. When he was talking about the book of Acts, he gave it another title. He says, it's called the Acts of the Apostles and understandably so. It leads us to great respect for Peter and Paul and John and the others. But not surprisingly from the outset, from the first verse, the declaration is that the church will continue to be divinely led, not mortally led.

And here's where he gives his title. Indeed, a more complete title for the book of Acts could appropriately be something like the acts of the resurrected Christ working through the Holy Spirit in the lives and ministries of his ordained apostles. He says now you can see why someone voted for the shorter title, but my suggested title is more accurate. He says, I think as we conclude the life of Paul, I think both Paul and Luke would want us to see that point that what was happening with Paul was bigger than Paul. What was happening through Paul was bigger than Paul. It was the Lord Jesus Christ, the resurrected Christ working through the Holy Spirit in the life of Paul to help the gospel go from a little house of Israel, blood lineage, house of Abraham group to the whole world to invite all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people into the family of God, which is called the house of Israel. Help them partake of all the promises, become heirs of all the promises God has ever made to his people. Like, I think that's the bigger picture. If we walk away saying that Paul is impressive, we would be right. But Luke would say, good, now go read it

again. You missed my major point that I was trying to make. Go read it again. This is about Jesus. And I think the book of Acts for me is like a little microscopic view of how Christ, the resurrected Christ, leads a church. We still today believe this about our church. It's the church of Jesus Christ. And you hear apostles testifying all the time that he leads this church, that he's at the head of this church. And so if we want to ask, what does that look like? What does that actually look like up close? The book of Acts is showing us a little peek into what does that look like? What does that actually look like up close? The book of Acts is showing us a little peek into what does that look like when Jesus works with weak

and simple servants, Peter, Paul, sometimes they have tempers, sometimes they have problems. They're not perfect servants, but Jesus works with them. He works with them great. And through them, this message is going to the whole world. If we come away from the book of Acts, more impressed with Jesus, I think Luke will say my job here is done. We have more insight into that great Book of Mormon phrase in 1 Nephi 2, the dealings of God with his people. How does the resurrected Jesus deal with his people?

That's what the book of Acts is showing us. At the end of Paul's life, I say he's impressive. He's an incredible disciple of Jesus Christ. He models for us what it looks like to just lean into any suffering that might come from misunderstanding, from being maligned, from being the brunt of other people's misperceptions and false assumptions and still pushing into it and pushing forward because the cause is worth it. The cause matters. This is about Christ's family. This is about God inviting everybody in. And so if we have to deal with some bumps along the way, so be it. I hear Paul saying, but just never lose sight of the bigger picture. This is about Jesus as the King of the kingdom of God. And he wants everybody to come

and participate in it. And we can help in some small way. Fantastic. I was really touched by Acts 23, 11. The Lord stood by him and said, be of good cheer. I hope our listeners felt that, that that's part of the overall message of Acts, is the Lord saying to his followers, be of good cheer. I'm with you. I'm standing by you. John, what a great day. Yeah, I love it. I got to listen to this one again. There's so many things I want to write down. Thank you, Scott. Yes, Scott. As John said, thank you so much for being with us.

It has been an honor. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. You guys are awesome. Love the show. Keep it up. We want to thank Dr. Scott Woodward for being with us today. What a treat. We want to thank our executive producer,

Shannon Sorenson. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. And we always remember our founder, Steve Sorenson. We hope you'll join us next week. We're not done with Paul. We now turn from his

story to his letters, to his letters. We're going to start that next week on follow him. Today's transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, follow him.co that's follow him.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free, and we'd love for you to share it with your family and friends. We'd like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. We've just completed a new project we think you'll love. If you would like short and powerful quotes and insights from

all of our Old Testament episodes, join our mailing list on our website, followhim.co, and we will email you a PDF of the first three chapters of our new book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. If you enjoyed our guests on the podcast last year as much as we did, we think you'll love this new collection. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen. We also love hearing from you, our friends and listeners. Hi, my name is Shelly. I live in Southern California. I just wanted to say that Follow Him is a wonderful addition to the Come Follow Me program. Your gospel scholars and your discussions every week

help me learn so much. I enjoy your humor as you look almost as an outsider at some of the scriptural incidents, not to demean or detract from the gospel, but to help us apply the gospel principles and the experiences of ancient people to us today. I love your program, and I recommend it to anyone.