followHIM - Alma 30-31 Part 1 • Dr. Brent Top • July 15-21 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

How do we recognize anti-Christian rhetoric? Dr. Brent Top examines the sophistries and anti-familial tenets advanced by Korihor and how the Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ for the Latter-day Saints.English: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM29ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM29FRPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM29PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM29ES YOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/GEMJUTQ1HSkALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part I  - Dr. Brent Top02:55 Dr. Brent Tops bio04:54 Introduction Korihorrible decisions06:40 Promises about Book of Mormon10:40 followHIM Favorite story about football13:33 Alma 30 - Obedience is protection against Korihors 14:33 Alma 30:12-18 - Temple experiences vs. Korihor16:25 Alma 30:8-12 - Beliefs and behaviors19:57 Alma 30:13 - Korihor’s tactics24:23 Dr. Top shares a story about the Southern Baptist convention27:53 Alma 30:13, 27 - Korihor paints himself as liberator32:41 Korihor makes an intellectual caste system36:38 Alma 30:15 - Countering Korihor’s tactics38:11 Discovering and recognizing truth40:02 Alma 30:17-18 - Korihor teaches that  man is greater than God46:39 Unwittingly adopting Korihor’s philosophies52:07 Alma 30:12-17 The Articles of No Faith56:13 Can you vote to decide true north?58:47 A consequence stick object lesson1:01:32 Alma 32:20 - Anti-family is anti-ChristThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, everyone. Welcome to Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my precious co-host, John, by the way, and our guest, Dr. Brent Topp. John, we're taking on two very interesting chapters in the book of Alma. We've been talking about Alma going on his big reactivation tour. We've gone through the sons of Mosiah going on missions. And then the book takes a little bit of a turn as we talk about apostasy. What are you thinking as we head into these? I'm just amazed at how the Book of Mormon has these different sections, like you just mentioned.

Here's how you talk to people who don't know anything about God. Here's how you talk to people who know but who are slacking. And then we're going to encounter somebody who says there is no God. And then we're going to go see the Zoramites who say, well, there is a God, but he's like this. And one of the huge questions is what is God like? What is his nature? And one of the things that I hope we all are coming to learn is about a loving heavenly father. That is like at the top of everything. I look forward to these because in one way, you might think, why did they include this? I thought it was really hard to engrave on plates.

You're going to tell us the story of an antichrist? I'm looking forward to talking it through. Yeah. And not just telling a little brief, Hey, there's this guy named Corhort. It's a long, it's one of the long chapters. Everything he taught. Here to help us, John is Dr. Brent Topp. Brent, what are we going to talk about today? You and I talked about this a couple of months ago. You said something interesting about choosing you as the guest here. I thought immediately when you asked me to do it that I was being typecast, that you thought, who do I think of when I think of Korohoor? That was kind of my first reaction was, well, do John and Hank think I'm an expert on apostasy?

Why me? Why couldn't I have Alma 32 instead of 30 and 31? I think these two chapters probably illustrate as well as anything else in the Book of Mormon of why the Book of Mormon was written for our day. That, to me, is the value of these two chapters. Absolutely. Everyone, I hope will pay attention to what Brent teaches us today. Go all the way through part one and part two, because you and your children and your grandchildren are going to meet the Korahors of this day, the Zoramites of this day. And you need to be prepared. They need to be prepared

when that happens. Not if, but when. John, Brent hasn't been with us in a couple of years. He's been on a bit of a ecclesiastical vacation. John, introduce him to us. Dr. Brent L. Topp is a professor emeritus of church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University, former dean of religious education. And listen to this, during his 45-year career in the church educational system. He's authored over 20 books, numerous articles on

doctrinal, scriptural, historical, and sociological subjects. We were talking about one of Dr. Topp's books that has really blessed my life, Glimpses Beyond Death's Door, people who have lost a loved one. It's so encouraging and faith-building. Most recently, Brother Brent was the mission president and site leader at the Mormon Battalion Historic Site in San Diego. That's the Southern California vacation he joked about. Before that was the Illinois Peoria Mission. Now, what most people don't know is he had to walk from Illinois to San Diego. Kind of a reenactment type of a thing. Exactly. And back. Oh, John.

We're really, really glad to have you. And we'll get some teaching done in between the laughing, I think, hopefully. I am so glad to be with you. Thank you so much for the invitation. And whether you think I'm Kora Hoare or not, I think we can learn some valuable lessons from these two chapters. In all seriousness, I didn't ask Brent because he's an expert in apostasy. I actually thought of Brent because I don't think there's anyone, John, who can top, did you see what I did there? Who can top the breadth of experience that Brent has. John, how many people you know that's been mission president twice? Yeah. That are still alive.

Yeah. And live to tell about it. Stake president, dean of the religion department. And this isn't to say Brent is above us all. Wow. It's just, he has this experience in so many different areas of the church that I thought he could really bless some lives here. Here's how the Come Follow Me manual starts. The accounts in Alma 30 and 31 clearly demonstrate the power of words for evil or for good. The flattering, the great swelling words of a false teacher named Korahor threatened to bring many souls down to destruction. Similarly, the teachings of a Nephite dissenter named Zoram led a whole group of people to fall into great errors and pervert the ways of the

Lord. In contrast, Alma had unwavering faith that the word of God would have a more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword or anything else. Alma's words expressed eternal truth and drew upon the power of Jesus Christ to silence Korahor, and they invited his blessings on those who went with him to bring the Zoramites back to the truth. These are valuable examples for followers of Christ today when false messages are common. We can find truth by trusting, as Alma did, the virtue of the Word of God. What a great takeoff into these chapters. Brant, where do you want to go?

Let me share with you a theme for the whole discussion as to why these two chapters are so important to us, like you said, to children, grandchildren, to future generations and members of the church and those not of our faith, because the world in which we are living is so deteriorated in so many ways. We go back to 1986 when we would have what we might call the Book of Mormon Reformation Project or the Book of Mormon Renaissance by President Ezra Taft Benson. That returns our whole mindset back to the Book of Mormon. I want to share with you a prophetic promise from President Benson that is so remarkable. He said, you will find greater power to resist temptation. You will find the power to avoid deception. That's what we're talking about right there. You will find the power to stay on the straight and narrow path. When you begin to hunger and thirst after those promises, increased love and harmony

in the home, greater respect between parent and child, increased spirituality and righteousness. These are not idle promises, but exactly what the prophet Joseph Smith meant when he said, the Book of Mormon will help us draw nearer to God. And then most recently, we're all familiar with President Nelson's prophetic promise on the Book of Mormon. I know you've referred to it over and over again, but I think this becomes kind of the context for why understanding the modern-day Korihoris is so important for us. President Russell Nelson said, My dear brothers and sisters, I promise that as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon every day, you will make

better decisions every day. I promise that as you ponder what you study, the windows of heaven will open, and you will receive answers to your own questions and direction for your own life. I promise that as you daily immerse yourself in the Book of Mormon. Now, here comes another prophetic promise about, what, 30, 40 years later almost, but the same concept. He says, I promise that as you immerse yourself daily in the Book of Mormon, you can be immunized against the evils of the day. That's what we're talking about, evils of the day, not just a historical narrative of Korihor and his efforts among the Nephites, the Zoramites, and others. It is really the message of our time. We see the prophecies of Satan's tactics in the last days are really new packaging of the same old, same old.

That's one of the reasons why we need to remember when Korihor is talking and he's so smooth, this is nothing new. That's why Alma is not so rattled. I love that. Go down and cross out 74 BC and put 2024. I remember another thing President Benson said, got the whole church back into the Book of Mormon, as you said, when he said the Book of Mormon brings people to Christ through two basic means. And one of them was it teaches the gospel, the doctrine of Christ in a plain way, faith, repentance, being born again, and it exposes the enemies of Christ. I've always

thought that was so interesting that it would have both of those things in it. Like you said, that we just have new, sophisticated sounding words for some of these same arguments that Korkor is going to use here. And as I have asked my kids, my friends, why is this in here? Usually somebody will, well, maybe you can see what the enemy's playbook is. And I remember Hank, you told a story on a follow him favorite of when you are playing football in St. George, that was so perfect to illustrate. Why would we give coral horse space on plates? Yeah, I think it was for Jacob. I think we did that one for Jacob. Maybe our listeners don't know John, but the follow him favorites, you can get them the same place you get our podcast. I've had people say, oh, aren't those just clips of the podcast? No, they are stories that John and I tell that go with each week's lesson. You can use them for seminary or institute or Sunday school, or maybe just family nights together. John and I love telling stories.

Five minutes. They're usually short. Five minutes telling a funny story or something that will get you thinking. Brent, you probably haven't heard it. So I'll tell you this story briefly. My high school football coach, Bill Jacobson, he would have me and a couple of others on the team watch game film before we'd go play high school on Friday night. He'd say, come to my office. We're going to watch this other team play and try to figure out what they're going to do. There was this one point where he said, Hank, I want you to focus on this left tackle.

What would happen when this left tackle lined up on the scrimmage line? If he was going to be a running play, he would put a lot of weight on his hand because he was going to run forward. But if it was going to be a passing play, he would just kind of dangle his fingers on the grass. He said, your job, Hank, is to line up on him every time and yell out if it's going to be a run or a pass based on his stance. So they come out, there he is. And I lined up next to him and he's got his hand, you know, a lot of weight on his hand. So I outrun our whole defense gets ready for a run. And then the next play, he just barely touched the grass with his fingers. And I sailed out past our defense set up for a pass. I tell John more of the details on the following favorites, but we just annihilated that team

because we knew what they were going to do before they did it. And knowing that anybody who's played competitive sports, if you know what they're going to do before they do it, it's such an advantage. And I think Brent, that might be what you're telling us about the book, is that the Book of Mormon can show you what an antichrist or an antifaith person is going to do before they do it. Yeah. And in fact, what you're describing in a sports way is tendencies. When a player has a tendency to do certain things, You're watching for those little tendencies. And I think we're seeing that here with Korihor, that he has a tendency to do certain things. And we should immediately, just like you said, okay, it's going to be this. And it becomes somewhat of a spiritual

armor for us so that what comes next out of his mouth and mind isn't going to have as much impact because we've seen the tendency and say, oh, I know where this is going. As we begin the study of chapter 30, we also have to pay particular attention because we get so caught up with Korihor. But look at verse 3. Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord, and they were strict in observing the ordinances of God. Am I living such as that I observe to keep the commandments of God? And am I strict in observing the ordinances of God? Because that becomes one of the greatest safeguards to us when exposed to any antichrist person, philosophy, or action. Brent, I love that. I've never seen it. Verse three, keeping commandments and observing ordinances.

And you called that a protection against the core horse of today. That's a beautiful insight. Let me give you an example. Yesterday, Wendy and I went to the St. George Temple and did some initiatory ordinances for some of our ancestors. And there were things said in that beautiful ordinance there about protections. Today, just before I came on board here to do this interview, I did my shift as a sealer in the St. George Temple, and then I got to perform a wedding sealing for a young, beautiful couple. The contrast of the feeling and spirit and emotion and love, love of God, love of family in that ceiling room. It was so remarkable.

Did you listen to that ordinance of what God promises that bride and groom in contrast to what Korahor is going to be saying to us. There's no comparison. Verse 3 is like what I experienced in the temple yesterday and today, verses 12 through 18, and then in 31 with Rameumptom, is like what we experience in the world of Antichrist around us. But when we keep that verse 3 foremost in our lives, verses 12 through 18 can't have the same power. Just an idea. Doesn't that sound a lot like Moses chapter one? Moses has had this experience with God, then Satan shows up and he says, I can tell a difference. Where is your glory? I have felt this. How come I'm not feeling anything with you? I love how the story unfolds. We've got this man in verse six that came into the land of Zarahemla, who was anti-Christ. We

don't know his name yet. And then verse seven, there's no law against a man's beliefs. Verse eight, choose ye this day whom you shall serve. So you have to have a choice. Verse nine, if you believe in God, it's your privilege to serve him. If you have to have a choice. Verse 9, if you believe in God, it's your privilege to serve him. If you do not believe, there's no law to punish him. But then look at verse 10, it's all behaviors. And I put in my margin, what are beliefs and what are behaviors? If he murdered, that's a behavior, punished to death. If he robbed, if he stole, if he committed adultery, for all this wickedness, he was punished. But back to verse 11, there was no law against a man's belief. This society was good in that you have freedom of thought. What Korihor is going to

attack is what they're believing and telling them if they could abandon that, they could change their behaviors. That is exactly what Korihor is trying to do, is to say, if you don't conform, you're out of it. You are a country bumpkin that knows nothing about the real sophistication of the world. You jump down into verse 12. 12 is really where we start seeing Korahor's tactics unfold. He said he began to preach unto the people that there should be no Christ. That is certainly common in the world. A lot of times we as Latter-day Saints will have friends and acquaintances that are not wearing black t-shirts with big, bold, red lettering saying Antichrist, but that they're saying things that would diminish the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ. They're not saying,

oh, there isn't a Christ, even though we encounter that. But it said, look in verse 13, O ye that are bound down under a foolish and vain hope. Vain, empty hope. In fact, I just saw a post on social media that one of my friends had shared that I thought was a wonderful, beautiful post. It was a father being asked by a child saying, Dad, what if it's not true? And the dad went through and talked about all of the blessings that had come into their family. What if it is true because of what I've experienced and observed in my life? How has this affected me? Let me give you an example here. I have family members that don't

believe in Christ, that maybe have reached the point where they think that maybe Jesus existed, but there really is no such thing as a Savior or salvation, that there really maybe isn't a God. And they probably look at Wendy and me and say, why in the world would you do what you've been asked to do by the church? Maybe being hoodwinked or taken advantage of by the church to render so much service and give so much of your time and talents and means, but they have no understanding of what that service has done for me, how it has changed me, how it has taught me. That's one of the things that we're seeing with Korihor here, is he wants to skirt the issues of what you have become, what you have experienced. I have in my margins here, John, I have three different tactics. First, when he says it's

foolish vain hope, why do you look for Christ? And right at the end of verse 13 is something that we see over and over and over again in scriptures and in history. No man can know of anything which is to come. There can be no prophecy. There cannot be any such thing as prophecy or prophets, or knowing the future of the world, the signs of the times. You can't know any of those kinds of things. Number one, I think we would say, you can describe it in lots of different ways, I would call it empiricism or rationalism. Now, don't get me wrong. I've done a lot of research and work that's empirical. I do believe in empiricism. I do believe in rationalism.

But I reject it when you say that's the only way you can view things of God. You can't know of anything to come. Man, we hear that all the time. And in fact, it even comes from religious people. Bob Millett and I had a very unique experience years ago. We were talking with a Christian pastor. He was familiar with the Book of Mormon, and he said, you know, I just think Joseph Smith must have made it up. And we said, well, why do you say that? And his response took me aback. And he said, because there is too much Christ in those early chapters. Now, this is from a Christian pastor who loves and has devoted his life to Christ. I would not characterize him as Antichrist,

but he is using a typical Antichrist tactic by saying, well, wait a second, Christ hasn't come yet, and how could they know so much detail about Christ so many centuries in advance. Here was an anti-Christ philosophy creeping into a very genuine theological discussion. That's how Korihor is working. That's how Sherem worked. So number one would be, you can't know of anything of the future. I can only trust that which can be empirically tested and observed, measured by the five senses. That's number one. Let me give you an example of that. We think of the Renaissance. Think of the reawakenings. I love those terms because it talks about we are expanding our horizons. Yes, they were expanding horizons of empiricism, rationalism, and scientific inquiry, and all of that plays a very significant role.

But just as Nephi warned and Jacob warned in the earlier chapters of the Book of Mormon, to be learned is good if. And that's the tactic of an Antichrist, is to leave out the if. Leave out the if you will hearken to the precepts of God. To be learned is good, but also to be learned in the things of God adds even greater value to that in that regard. What is unreasonable is to think that I can't use reason plus spiritual experience and observation. That's what the Antichrist is doing is to discount and say, if it is not within this little box of evidence, it cannot count towards knowledge of truth. Let me give you one more quick story.

Many, many years ago, you will remember that the Southern Baptist Convention held their annual convention in Salt Lake City. And there was a lot of attention as to how the official church would respond and how church members would respond. President Hinckley was very hopeful that we would be good Christians. And during this period of time, there was a very popular news anchorman on Channel 2 News by the name of Rod Decker. And Rod Decker used to have a point and counterpoint type thing where he would invite people in to almost debate certain issues. And so during the Southern Baptist Convention, he invited a Baptist pastor that was there at

the convention, was considered very knowledgeable and so forth. Bob Millett was serving as Dean of Religion at the time, and they invited Bob to come in and be on this little point, counterpoint, and have a little bit of a debate. And the next day, Bob gets a phone call from another Baptist pastor. And the Baptist pastor said, I was embarrassed that this guy represented us so badly and that it made it look like that Mormons know more than we Baptists, and that isn't right. I need to come and talk to you, Brother Millett. I invited this minister to come into his office, and if you remember, Brother Millett's office had books everywhere, and he's lost more books than most of us will

ever have in our library. And this pastor came in, and Bob invited me to come in, and I contributed to the story by saying things like, yeah, that's right. That was probably my major contribution to say, yeah, amen. But Bob would go through early Christian history, early Christian philosophy, going through so many things. We had this really great discussion about history of Christianity, early theological discussions. We went through so many issues for several hours. When we got to the end, we had to agree to disagree, but this Baptist minister said something that I don't think he realized how profound it was. He said, I just can't believe that the two of you believe what you believe, knowing what you know. Now, do you see what an interesting statement? The whole discussion

was beyond the area of what has been taught, what is empirical, what can we measure, what can we reason about, what have we read, what is history, What is out in the academic world? All of that. And then it was, we know things beyond the things that were just on the bookshelves. That's the first category. And that is the, how can you know of anything that you can't measure with your senses? How can you accept it when there's no empirical way to prove it? When I look at verse 13, I think Korihor was a very efficient writer or speaker. Notice how many insults he could get into. So few words.

Oh, you that are bound, bound you're foolish your hope is vain you yoke yourselves with foolish things one of the things i heard robert millet say that i thought oh i see that he said kora hor is painting himself as a liberator i'm gonna liberate you from all this you guys have no freedom you are bound you are yoked i'm gonnaate you from all this. You guys have no freedom. You are bound. You are yoked. I'm going to deliver you from all this. In fact, later on, he's going to say in verse 27, you're not enjoying your rights and privileges, and I'm here to liberate you. We hear that sort of thing today. You guys have no freedom. You can't do anything. Then he is saying, let me put you in this little box of rationalism and empiricism. Brent, in the history of our church, we've got some pretty educated people. When you think of the John Widsovs and James Talmadge and Henry Eyring Sr., these aren't your, what do you call them, country bumpkins who would believe anything you'd tell them. Absolutely.

And in fact, speaking of empiricism or things that you could measure, in a lot of the sociological research that I've done on LDS youth and families and parents, in major studies that are done every year, national studies, not Latter-day Saint studies. And we have colleagues at BYU that are continuing to build upon and recounting these, but every year they'll do studies on education levels. Latter-day Saints usually are the second highest educated religious population of all that are studied. So it's not just the James Talmadge, John Widsoe, Russell Nelson. We could go down the list, but the rank and file member of the church generally has higher levels of education than other religious communities or non-religious communities. It's not like we, of all people, are saying, oh, let's not even look at reason. There is strong correlations between education level and retaining your faith. Korahors today would have us believe that only nimcompoops believe the gospel. But in reality, the more educated a person becomes, and we're talking generally, not anecdotally, we're talking

statistically, the more faithful they become and vice versa. I did studies with my late colleague in sociology, Dr. Bruce Chadwick, where we found that Latter-day Saint youth that were more religious did better in school, and when they do better in school, they are more religious. Of course, Satan's going to want you to think you're not very sophisticated, you're not very knowledgeable if you believe. And if you believe in something that cannot be measured, then it's just foolish tradition. I have a couple of quotes I brought today, if you don't mind if I share. I've noticed, Brent, as you showed us, step one with Korihor is there is no Christ. Step two is I need you to feel foolish. That's the attack.

John said all the insults. You are foolish. He says in verse 13, verse 16, it's the effect of a frenzied mind, deranged of mind. If someone believes in God, you are foolish. And Brent, wouldn't you say, if I can get you to feel foolish, now you're vulnerable. If I can get you to feel like you're the dumb one in the room, then all of a sudden you're, oh, I don't know. You're right, Hank. To say you're just not sophisticated. You just can't quite get it. Let me just give you an example too that we encounter a lot of

times is that they don't say it this way, but it is implied and makes me feel this way. If you were just as smart as me, you couldn't believe that. If you knew what I knew. If you were just as smart as me, and it creates this intellectual caste system. And an Antichrist, one of the tactics of an Antichrist is you cannot be intellectual unless you criticize the brethren. You can't be intellectual unless you are on the fringe in this way or that way, because that shows a nonconformist approach, which is more sophisticated. If you're not critical, then you are brainwashed. You're blindfolded. You don't know anything that you're talking about. How could this Baptist minister say, I can't believe that you believe the things that you do, knowing all the things that you know? None of us want to be called fools, but I sure love in the scriptures

when Paul and others, a term that we use that we're fools for Christ. People can call Paul a fool, but man, he had an awfully good education. I'm pretty sure they told Jesus himself, you have a devil. It's almost like this foolish traditions of your father's frenzied mind. Can any good thing come from Nazareth? The same thing. How could anybody be able to know anything and they come from St. George? Right. Jeff Holland's a pretty bright guy.

He's done okay. Pretty bright guy. I'm glad you brought him up, Brent, because I have a quote right from him. He said exactly what you said. So it's a second witness. April 2013, General Conference, a talk called Lord, I Believe. He says, sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than an honest

declaration of faith. It is not. Somehow, what'd you say? You're intellectual if you doubt. Or that you have somehow wrestled with hard issues and hard questions harder than a person that believes, which may not be true at all. A person that is devout and faithful, I would hope that I could even put myself in that category. I have wrestled long and hard with tough issues. I have searched and studied. It is not like I am dismissive of learning or knowledge, but I know what I know, and I know what I choose to believe. You can see how Satan is going to try to put young people particularly, but others as well, out on the fringes. Because when they're out on the fringes feeling lonely, you know what happens in wildlife when those animals that are out on the fringes away from the body is you can pick them off so much easier, isolate to make them feel like, well,

if I'm the only person that believes this gospel, there must be something wrong with me because all of my friends believe this. So I'm the one that's wrong, not the possibility that maybe others have not paid the price that you paid. When I was a student at BYU, they had a letter from the editor. I stuck it in my Alma chapter 30 file. I want you to listen to this. Just think of the character it takes to let your bishopric and triple combination make all your life's decisions for you. That way you don't have to waste any time pondering those important life questions like whether or not you should get married, have your kids, or pierce your ears more than once. Divine revelation is there to do it for you.

I'm being serious now when I say I'm kind of jealous about the other myriad of benefits of having all your decisions made for you. How nice it must be to have the honor code right there to instruct you in some manners. I laughed and I thought, Korihor lives. No freedom, that's what it's saying. And you're foolish because you can't even make your own decisions. But I do love the question that Korihor asks in verse 15, how do ye know? I hope it's one we ask ourselves. When I was a bishop, I would take notes on every testimony every month in testimony meeting.

I begin to notice the answers of how people said that they knew. And I divided it into feelings feelings exalted feelings they had like you just expressed there in the temple and I've had those but there's also been experiences sometimes you ask the Lord tell me that this is true and doesn't tell you in words he tells you in an experience and it takes a year or two evidences fruits of the gospel that they have noticed that nobody can take away from them. They're right there. Lastly, there are some things that seem to make sense.

I called it logic so that it would spell feel. Feelings, evidences, experiences, logic or reason. Things like at the title page of the book Mormon, where it says, manifesting himself unto all nations. Yeah, it just makes sense that Jesus would go other places and visit his people. To me, that's logical. So I like the question, how do you know? It helps me to ask the next question, is there a way to know truth outside the scientific method? I really think that's what Alma 31 is going to tell us. We have to add the word that you read there in verse 15.

How do you know then the key phrase there of their surety? One of the things that I found when I was serving as stake president in Utah County is that there was a movement in some circles to not say I know. That it was almost juvenile or immature or totally unreasonable to ever bear testimony with an I know. I would hear a lot of testimonies of I believe, that's great, I'm wonderful with that. I have a conviction of, or I want to believe, or things like that. While hopefully it was never intentional, but for some people it was like Korihor was doing here, was shaming those that said, I know, into wondering whether or not you could really know. Not whether you did really know, but could really know. Let me give you a second one where you see in verse 17, when it says there, he's telling him many more things. I wish we had the many more things. Holy cow, can you imagine how many more episodes we could do on that? There could be no atonement made. So he's setting the stage here. He's saying that there's no Christ, so there could be no atonement made.

And so in reality, it's up to you, which then creates what I put out in my margin here, humanism. Humanism is both a strength and a weakness. It is a strength when we care about one another, when we understand a little bit about the human condition and we try to elevate and lift others in the human condition, when we understand that human beings have their own frailties, and we all have frailties, that we can strive to be more human to one another. That's a positive thing.

But humanism in the negative sense here, when he says, every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature. Now, I want you to stop there for a second. I mean, we know what he's saying there. You're going to only get ahead by what you do. But notice, I love the word. And again, I don't know exactly how Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and how these words all came to be there. it's interesting where Korahor says, every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature. The word creature that was not a divine daughter or son

of God, but is a creature, and you're driven by your own evolutionary impulses. You don't have any say. And in fact, when I was doing sociological research, one of the studies that we looked at was from a Harvard professor, sociologist, that claimed that parents had no influence upon their children other than in genetic code of giving their kids either height or good looks or athletic ability because in reality, parental influence didn't really exist. It was the management of the creature. Now, we look at that and say, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, and you can see evidence otherwise. But Koroho is saying to these people, hey, it doesn't matter.

There is no need for an atonement because you have to fend for yourself in this world. This is the dog-eat-dog world. Look at this next phrase here that really bugs me as well, too. Therefore, every man prospered according to his genius. You got to outsmart people, not outnice people, not outkindness people, not out serve people, outsmart people, and then conquer according to your strength. That, to me, is what I call humanism. The implication is you cannot look to God for anything. You've got to do it all yourself. You cannot expect an atonement because, one, there is no Christ, is what Korihor is saying. You can't expect that

because you, it's all upon you. You begin to see sometimes, and this is going to lead me to my last point in this chapter too, is when we have motivation speakers. now, the three of us have been known to be motivation speakers in our own way. Some people might say, you know, Top is a no motivation speaker. He's an unmotivated speaker. there is Korihor philosophies that creep into our lives sometimes when we begin to think the same thing as he's advocating, is I've got to do this all myself. I've got to fare both academically, intellectually, socially, parentally, as a son or daughter. I've got to do everything according to my genius and my strength. What a terrible burden to carry. Like you were saying, John, that Korihor is saying he's going to be the great liberator, that is the great bondage to think that I am totally dependent upon my own efforts, my own skill, my own genius,

man, my own talent, my own good looks, no wonder I feel doomed and depressed, if that's how I have to measure up. So then, if you have that thrown at you, then you have the third point, is right at the end of verse 17, sets the stage or is the tactic of the Antichrist. The verse after is the byproduct of it. Whatsoever a man did was no crime, no sin, had no real meaningful consequences. Doesn't matter. And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness. Now, I'm going to say something I hope is not controversial. I want to point out again the difference between adopting even unwittingly Antichrist philosophies, and I think we need to check your thoughts,

your words, your actions, you know, King Benjamin warning us about those things, that I think in our vocabulary, even as we teach the gospel, even as we teach our children and young people, that we don't give opening to Korahor-like teachings. Now, here's what I'm going to say to you. So whatsoever a man did was no crime. None of my missionaries down in San Diego would say there was no atonement. But there was maybe a temptation at the other end of the continuum to say, because there is an atonement, and because Jesus loves me, and because grace is free, then it doesn't matter what I do. Now, that is a form of false grace or cheap grace.

The point I'm trying to say there is, yes, we need to live the gospel. No, we don't have to do everything on our own. But let's also understand the atonement, not dismiss the expectations of the atonement of Jesus Christ and the gospel commandments and covenants and ordinances by having grace be our strength that then becomes a weakness if we're not careful. God loves me, that I know for sure. But I also know for sure that I cannot continually offend him without there being some consequence. And that's what Korihor is saying to him. And he's leading him along to basically say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

When in fact it does. It's hard doctrine because I am such a devout, strong believer in grace. I've seen with my missionaries so much focusing on the love of God and the love of Christ, which is absolutely the great inviter to the gospel. But if we are not careful, instead of it inviting us unto him, it basically says, because of him, I'm there. And I don't think that is ever the intent of Christ's gospel. It's a good point. Yeah, thank you, Brent, for that thought. I hadn't really considered that before. I'm thinking about the way we started.

These ideas are ancient, but they're modern. I'm looking at verse, "'You cannot know things you do not see,' and today we would say, seeing is believing, even though Polar Express taught us believing is seeing, okay? And then, "'Every man prospered according to his genius every man conquered according to his strength Oh survival to the fittest that's how we'd say it right

whatsoever a man did was no crime oh yeah well there's no real right and wrong that's just consensus we just made up some laws and then that when a man is dead that's the end thereof there There's no judgment. There's no accountability for our choices. That negates the light of Christ and everything. And you could see how that philosophy is restated in more modern words today. Yeah. You can see in verse 18 as well, it becomes relativism. And it's like, how many times we hear today when people talk about my truth, not the truth. The truth. us that truth and the standards of God, the knowledge of God, the acceptance of the things of God are totally and completely idiosyncratic, and it can be whatever you want it to be. It sounds so magnificent and so inclusive, but in reality, it is not. Korihor is saying there really is no truth, and you cannot

say that you know the truth. You cannot say you abide by truth, even if my truth transgresses upon you and yours. To me, I see these Korihor philosophies and tactics around us today. They're insidious. They're insipid. They're sometimes difficult even to recognize until it's too late. Brent, can I add a couple of second witnesses to everything you've taught us? Basically, Alma 30 verses 12 through 17 are the articles of no faith. Mm-hmm.

You can list them out one by one. As you said earlier, we don't worship at the throne of academia, of education. But if you did, if you thought, well, can someone be educated and a believer? You mentioned President Nelson. There's a litany of people who are leaders of this church who have gone to some pretty good schools. You have Elder Oaks, who has a law degree. You have Henry B. Eyring, who has a PhD from Harvard. You have Elder Holland, who has a PhD from Yale. You have Elder Gong. I don't know if either of you had looked at Elder Gong's academic background, but a PhD from Oxford, a Rhodes scholar, you have Elder Bednar, a PhD from Purdue. And I could keep going. We could go down the line that you can be educated and a believer.

There is absolutely no question, no question about that. The other thing you mentioned, Brent, which struck me is the swinging to that side of the pendulum, which is, hey, if there's an atonement, then grace will cover whatever I do. And I thought of this way back in the year 2000. Elder Holland talked about that idea of, well, why can't I just do what I want to do if the Savior offers me his grace? And he says, please never say, who does it hurt? Why not a little freedom? I can repent later. Please don't be so foolish and so cruel. You cannot with impunity or without thinking crucify Christ afresh or crucify him again. He said the suffering of the savior of the world was incalculable, both in body and spirit. We owe him something for that. Indeed, we owe him everything for that. So the idea that this grace is so easy to come by

when it caused the Savior of the world incalculable suffering. Yeah, that's so beautiful. And it also reminds me of a statement from even longer ago than that, from Elder Neal Maxwell, when he talks about our relationship with the Savior. And that's where we're talking about we want to have a good relationship with the Savior. We want to have the knowledge of the personal, intimate, and infinite blessings of the Atonement in our lives, but not take it too casually. Elder Maxwell talked about where he said, any discussion or estimation of where we stand in relationship to Christ tells us that we do not stand at all. We kneel. If we understood the gospel of Jesus Christ, we kneel in adoration and appreciation. We don't view the

atoning sacrifice of the Son of God as a giant circus safety net for the careless trapeze artists, but rather as a covenant path, an iron rod that leads us away from the dangers of the world and leads us to that fruit that is sweeter and whiter and better than anything anybody can imagine. Korihor is trying to, in any way possible, diminish our true understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ. I like to ask my students, everybody point forward where you're sitting. Look, we're pointing in opposite directions. You might think that means forward is whatever I decided is. But Nephi doesn't leave us with a room. He says he must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ. So forward is Christ's word. And I know that Stephen Covey used to do something I just thought was so brilliant. He'd be in a business seminar setting and he would say to the group, everybody cover your eyes and

point north. And usually they're in an unfamiliar conference center. And he said, I would have people pointing in every direction, including straight up. And then he would say, okay, uncover your eyes and look around the room. And they'd all laugh. Oh, I came up the elevator. I don't know where I am. And they'd all laugh and everything. And then I just thought, wow, this is brilliant. He would say, well, why don't we just vote? And they'd kind of squirm, like, well, North isn't subject to popular opinion. I mean, you might be right, but you might not. Oh, okay. Well, why don't we have the strongest person in the room decide then? We'll have an arm wrestling tournament. They choose what North is. Well, it's good to be strong,

but they could be wrong. Okay. Well, let's have the wealthiest person in the room. That's the golden rule. If you got the gold, you make the rules. And they'd all kind of laugh at that too. And then he would say, and I thought, wow, this is very 2024. Just decide what North is for you, which would kind of ensure that everybody's lost. And after he kind of showed that, that well it does work if you're

on the south pole i thought about that yeah then it works if you're right on the south pole it works but then he would say see none of these work popular pin doesn't work money doesn't work power doesn't work relativism doesn't work he would pull something out of his pocket and you know what it is a compass and he would say this is an external reality it's not up to me it's not up to you it's similar to we hold these truths to be self-evident as time honored we must align our lives with true north principles I love that idea Christ is our true north such a good argument against relativism or whatever you think. Is there such a thing as absolute truth? Korihor says, no, there's no such thing.

Whatsoever a man did was no crime. Elder Maxwell said, denying absolutely the existence of absolutes. Denying absolutely the existence of absolutes. That's great. Hank and Brent, I was looking in the manual and it says, what object lessons can you think of to better understand the difference between the Savior's teachings and Satan's false imitations? And I used to have this on my desk when I was a bishop. dad said once when you pick up one end of the stick you pick up the other and i thought that's really brilliant dad thank you so much i wanted to test this i went to home depot and i bought a piece of wood i even put black and yellow crash dummy testing stuff on it i wanted to test this i wanted to test the theory so here here you go if i pick up one

end of the stick do i pick up the other now i always had a deacon i can do it yeah okay but you get the idea you pick up one end of the stick you pick up the other when i read corhor whatsoever a man did was no crime when a man is dead that's the end thereof i see him saying that there's no consequences and this is what this whole little stick thing means when you make a choice you get a consequence korahor is covering up this part and saying you can do whatever you want there's no consequences now with my kids i told them them, finish this sentence. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. That's saying there's no consequences. We have a whole world that's trying to provide a way for particularly breaking law of chastity, no consequences.

It causes people to make what I call horrible decisions. That's very good. I like that. I like that a lot. When I see that verse, and I think there really are consequences, verse 18, they lifted up their heads in wickedness and they committed whoredoms. The record doesn't tell us how many broken hearts, how many broken homes, how many consequences were there. I think it's so interesting. We're talking beliefs, beliefs, beliefs, beliefs,

and then verse 18 is behavior. They lifted up their heads in wickedness. Scripturally, you both know better than I do that scriptures use body parts a lot. To have a stiff neck means you're stubborn. Well, you lift up your heads in wickedness. You're not embarrassed. You're not ashamed. And this was the end result of what Korihor was teaching him. They went right for that commandment there. And I've often wondered what

happened after that to all of those families. And thankfully, there is an arm of mercy extended. I love President Packer's statement, you better really want the consequences of what you really want. When I was a stake president, I tried to teach the bishops to teach people and transgressors and especially the youth when they talk about it is so hard to live the gospel that I would say living the gospel is not hard. Living with the consequences of not living the gospel is hard. That I think goes along with that idea of relativism, that you think you can defy gravity, but not splatter at the bottom when you jump off a building. It just doesn't work that way. What you said, that the gospel, I like to say, is the easiest way to live, and I have people get downright upset. I didn't say it was easy. I said

it's easier. It's the easiest way because it's easier than going through the consequences of not living it. My kids, when we were raising them, thought consequence was a bad word. Do I get a consequence? But it can be a really good thing. And there are fruits. We call them fruits in the scriptures. And then there's one more side to my stick, and that is if-then. These awesome if-then statements we have in the scriptures. The three of us are sitting here today because of an if-then. If any of you lack wisdom, then let them ask. The then is implied.

King Benjamin, I would desire you consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. And if they hold out faithful to the end, then they are received into heaven that they may dwell with God in a state of never ending happiness. And Corhors trying to say there are no consequences for wickedness. And I tried it with this stick from Home Depot, and I empirically decided, decided no there's consequences for everything can i share something with both of you that was pointed out by one of the best leaders in the history of the church julie beck she pointed to verse 18 that mormon points out that kora whore led away the hearts of many specifically specifically, Mormon says, leading away many

women. And Julie Beck highlighted this at BYU Women's Conference back in 2009. We're fans of Women's Conference here. Follow him. She says, Korihor thought he was an original. And the people who are preaching these things today also think they are original and clever. They are not original or clever. Their teachings are pirated from the leader of darkness and are taught by failed leaders. Korahor was a failed leader who did not prosper. He was called an antichrist. We should never forget, sisters, that antichrist teachings and principles are always anti-family.

And anti-family teachings are antichrist. Satan knows that he will never have a body. He will never have a family. So he targets women who create the bodies for future generation. Julie Beck, if you want to go through her teachings when she was serving as president of the Relief Society, I had never really seen that before, but she highlighted it as an important point made by Mormon. And Mormon did. Yeah. There's a question that often comes up. If there is no law against a man's belief, then why, in verse 20, could they take Korahor and bind him and carry him before Ammon? I think that, to quote Camille Frankelson, we're being a little naive if we don't think the Korahor was right in there with them committing whoredoms.

And back in verse 10, you can be punished for crimes. Yeah. And causing others to do the same thing. I thought, oh, good point. Maybe for that reason, they could take him and bind him. One of the things that I loved about verse 22 is the high priest. His name is Gadona. He only gets quoted for this one spot in the Book of Mormon. Why do you go about perverting the ways of the Lord? Why do you teach this people that there shall be no Christ, and listen to this phrase, to interrupt their rejoicings? If we believe in Christ, what should we be doing? And how is the gospel described throughout the scriptures? Glad tidings of great joy. We should be rejoicing.

And there's only one time in the entire Book of Mormon when the word interrupt is used, and it happens to be gedona right here. Fun little factoid, but the idea that Satan wants us to feel like living the gospel is just making us feel guilty all the time. But if we really love the gospel and love the plan and love the doctrine of Christ, it is reason to rejoice. Modern day Korahors, why do you take such great delight in tearing down everything that is valuable to me and sacred to me.

We do not teach our missionaries to tear down, but as President Hinckley used to say, bring all the good that you have. And yet Korihor wanted to pervert the ways, destroy the rejoicing, tear down anything that brought good and happiness to others. How do people live with themselves who tear down all the time and delight in making others feel horrible. It just doesn't jive with everything that we understand Christ to be. Thank you for that, Brent. Thank you. It's by their fruits you shall know them. Now, it's interesting that Alma is going to say the same in verse 35.

Believest thou we deceive this people that causes such joy in their hearts, that joy is a fruit of the gospel. It should be. Coming up in part two of this episode. The first time as a mission president, President Packer laid his hands on my head and very simply, after giving me the keys and setting me apart, said,