followHIM - Alma 53-63 Part 1 • Dr. Justin Top • August 19-25 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: August 14, 2024

How do the War Chapters help us in our personal struggles? Dr. Justin Top uses his personal military experience and spiritual education to explore the War Chapters and how to apply the teachings of Jesus Christ in our spiritual, emotional, and physical battles.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM34ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM34FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM34DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM34PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM34ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/X--2f7UoJ4sALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part I  -  Dr. Justin Top01:51 Dr. Justin Top’s bio04:32 Come, Follow Me Manual07:45 First type of personal weakness11:59 Fortify where you can14:54 How grace works on our behalf18:49 Alma 53:1-9 - Enemies within21:14 Alma 53:11-16 - Oath keeping and choosing leaders28:08 Alma 53:17-20 - Who is Helaman?30:59 Alma 54:1-17 - Conflict and taking a stance36:49 Alma 55:1-22 - A plan to rescue prisoners of war39:12 Alma 55:28-35 - Temptation sometimes follows success43:08 Alma 56:1-30 - Sin and creating spiritual strongholds48:03 Alma 56:39-46 - No plans survive first contact with the enemy53:39 Alma 56:47-57 - Faith of mothers, none were slain1:01:34 “Miracle at Gapyeong”1:05:57 Alma 57:1-26 -  Obedience and a relationship with Jesus01:14:53 - End of Part 1 - Dr. Justin TopThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my co-host, John, by the way, who was taught by his mother. John, we're in the second half of the war chapters today. What you brought out with Dr. Boren last week was fantastic. What are you looking forward to in the second half of the war chapters? There's so much in all of these. We're going to see the influence of family, the influence of watching others sacrifice for you and how that helps you want to get involved. And always the, why are we fighting? This is a hard thing. Why are we doing this? And Mormon as the abridger is very careful to remind us over and over again of why these conflicts are continuing. I'm looking forward to what you have to offer this week. Also looking forward to what our guest has to offer, John. We're with Dr. Justin Topp today. Justin, when you think of these chapters at the end of the book of Alma, what do you think of? What are we going to do today? I'm so excited. I love these

chapters. This is the continuation of the war chapters that we talked about last time, but I want you to look for three themes. The first word to think of is struggle. This is all about struggle, something that all of us know a little bit about in our lives. The second word is courage. We're going to learn about courage, how to access that courage to motivate us in life. And then the last word is lenses. And that may not make sense right now. It's all about understanding lenses and perspective and how they affect us. I love coming into it with a plan.

John, some of our listeners might be thinking, wait, we already heard from Dr. Topp back in Alma 30. This is a different Dr. Topp. Can you introduce him? Yes, that we had Dr. Brent Topp. This is his son, Dr. Justin Topp. And Dr. Justin Topp is an assistant professor in ancient scripture at BYU. Dr. Topp has a PhD in counseling psychology, a master's degree in religious education, and a bachelor's degree in Near Eastern Studies, all from BYU. His research interests include pastoral counseling and the relationship between spirituality and mental health. Justin Topp joined the United States Navy in 2008 as a chaplain and served for six years on active duty, including two deployments aboard Navy ships in support of the global war on terror.

He's currently a commander in the Navy Reserves and a deputy chaplain for Marine Corps Installations Command in Washington, D.C. Justin and his wife, Shauna, have a family of 11 children. I think that's considered a platoon, including two sets of twins. He and his family love all kinds of outdoor adventures, especially skiing, climbing, canyoneering, hiking, biking, and scuba diving. Justin, before we formally welcome you, can you tell us more about the Master of Arts in Chaplaincy program? Of course, yeah. Military chaplains in general, we're out there to support the troops, the sailors, in whatever environment, whatever their faith is, and provide support. And every chaplain is endorsed by a religious organization. Of course, mine is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. BYU has this flagship program for training our chaplains for military, and now it's open for healthcare and prison and education and other chaplains as well.

We train these students to go out in the world and be ready to provide spiritual and emotional support to whatever community they're supporting. Wow. That's fantastic. That's wonderful work. I can't even imagine all the stories you could share with us about doing that for six years in the Navy. Yeah, it's a lot of adventure, a lot of, wow, miracles. And you just see the hand of God working in everyone's lives. It's pretty amazing. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Topp. I'd rather call you Commander Topp.

That just sounds really cool to me. Oh, please don't. I have to admit, like hearing that Dr. Top, Dr. Top's my dad. That's not me. I'm used to being Chaplain Top or Brother Top. Yeah. Well, John, I think this is a first for Follow Him, isn't it? To have a father-son, a parent-child.

Yeah, which is so appropriate for the Book of Mormon. How many father-son chats have we had already in Alma? Dr. Topp Sr., if you're out there listening, know that we love you and we're excited for your son to show you up here today. Justin, like I said, we're taking on Alma 53 through 63. A lot of chapters, a lot to look at, a lot to discover here. I'm going to read from the Come Follow Me manual. Then let's see where you want to go here. The name of the lesson is preserved by his marvelous power. When compared with the Lamanite armies, Helaman's little army of young men shouldn't have stood a chance. Besides being few in number, Helaman's soldiers were all very young and they never had

fought. In some ways, their situation might seem familiar to those of us who sometimes feel outnumbered and overwhelmed in our latter-day battle against Satan and the evil forces of the world. But the army of Helaman had some advantages over the Lamanites that had nothing to do with numbers or military skill. They chose Helaman, a prophet, to lead them. They had been taught by their mothers, like John, that if they did not doubt, God would deliver them. And they had exceeding faith in that which they had been taught. As a result, they were protected by the miraculous power of God. So when facing life's battles, we can take courage.

Helaman's army teaches us that there is a just God and whosoever does not doubt will be preserved by his marvelous power. What a great opener. Justin, with that, how do you want to go about looking into these chapters? I think as we start off here, it's important to step back and take a look at the big picture. The war is dragging on. I mean, it's getting old. We're going on a decade of war with the Lamanites, and it just keeps going and going and going. The Nephites are outnumbered, and they're surrounded, and it's a dark time. It's kind of interesting if you think about how Mormon pauses in his style.

Normally, he's talking about the preaching and the Word of God, but he takes a big section here, an unusually large section, to pause and talk about battles. I remember when I was younger being excited about this because it's kind of interesting, but finding spiritual nuggets in it seemed harder. But Mormon knows what he's doing. He intentionally puts this section in here. What we want to do is step back and look at the whole war chapters as something that applies to us. That's where the real power is in finding application as we go along. What I like to do when I read the war chapters is put this title over the top of it. It's insights and strategies to help with our personal battles or our personal struggles. There's that word I told you was coming, struggles. All throughout,

and last week you heard about, for example, Captain Moroni and the title of liberty. And it teaches us in overcoming our struggles, how important it is to be able to remind ourselves of meaning and our why in life. The story of Lahontai and how dangerous it is to come down, come down from high places, or like Elder Uchtdorf said with the, I'm doing a good work and can't come down. Those ideas, all these stories have incredible application to us in our personal struggles. I want you to be thinking of what your struggle is. And I'll throw a couple of examples. Well, I'll throw three examples out of the types of struggles that people might have in mind and be able to apply these stories. First is a struggle with

some sort of personal weakness. Maybe it's pornography or sort of negativity or poor self-worth, something like that, but an internal battle or struggle. Relationships bring a lot of struggles. If you have difficulties in your relationships, and there's some great, great nuggets of truth that you can pull out of these chapters. Another common one is struggle with doubt. There is some sort of message for you in these stories that will help you with your personal struggles. John, we talked about your book last week. As Justin is introducing us to this, what is coming to your mind?

He used a word that I loved. We can apply these to our lives. I was intrigued, and we talked about it last week, that Mormon himself was a general and probably saw so much of life and how to overcome struggles in life. That will be one of the fun things to do is to say, okay, interesting story, interesting battle, great stratagem, but what do I do with that? Justin, I can think of parents who are listening or saying my teenager is struggling here, here and here. And you're saying, oh, you can find answers in these chapters to those struggles.

Absolutely. What do you want to do next, Justin? Why don't we dive into the text? Start with Alma chapter 53. Okay. Absolutely. What do you want to do next, Justin? And now Ammaron, his brother, takes over. And it's the same story, different family member, which is probably what everybody's feeling like with me and Dr. Topp and Dr. Topp. Same story, different family member. But right before this chapter, a battle has taken place and the Nephites have won and they've taken captive a bunch of Lamanite prisoners. As soon as the battle is over, they're going back to work preparing for the next battle. And he goes into detail in verse four, and he calls that they should build a

breastwork of timbers on the inner bank of the ditch. And this isn't the first time we read all about this strategy in last week's reading in chapter 50. The best time to fortify ourselves against struggle is when things are good Sometimes we wait and ignore it and think everything's okay But you know the next struggle is going to come the best time to fix a leaky roof is before it rains I remember I was at the beach one time and made a sandcastle with my kids and I sat back to Relax and watch the sunset and fell asleep. The waves started coming over my feet and it woke me up because the castle had been between me and

the waves, but the tide had come in. And now this castle that I put so much time into is getting washed away. And so I jumped down and I start digging, trying to build this thing up. But now for every two scoops that I put on there of sand, one gets washed away because the waves are hitting. It reminds me of a quote by President Kimball about us having reservoirs of righteousness. Think of this in the same thing as fortifying ourselves. By President Kimball, there should also be reservoirs of knowledge to meet the future needs, reservoirs of courage to overcome the floods of fear that put uncertainty in our lives, reservoirs of physical strength to help us meet the frequent burdens of work and illness, reservoirs of goodness, reservoirs of stamina, reservoirs of faith. Yes, especially reservoirs of faith so that when the world presses in upon us, we stand firm and strong. When the temptations of a decaying world about us

draw on our energies, sap our spiritual vitality, and seek to pull us down, we need a storage of faith that can carry youth and later adults over the dull, the difficult, the terrifying moments, disappointments, disillusionments, and the years of adversity, want, confusion, and frustration. This idea of fortifying whenever you can, build those fortifications, I think that's one of the important things that really is brought out by Mormon here. And in fact, later on in Alma 59.9, it builds on this same idea. He says, Knowing that it was easier to keep the city from falling into the hands of the Lamanites than to retake it from them.

President Ezra Taft Benson said that it's better to prepare and prevent than to repair and repent. Exactly right. I like the word reservoir because it has that idea of a reserve. And nowhere in the scriptures are we told, actually, the world's going to get better and better and more righteous and life's going to get easier and easier. We're told the opposite. What do we do? We prepare. We get that reserve. Great application of that. My wife and I have a little exercise that we try to practice. And this only came because of hard experience. And that is we ask

a question of ourselves. What are we not doing right now that in a few years we would look back and say, why didn't we do that? What are we doing right now that as we're 10 years down the line, looking back at this moment going, oh, if only we would have. It's obviously impossible to tell the future, but that has helped us a couple of times saying, well, we'd probably regret this. All right, let's do something now to see if we can prepare against a future that is uncertain. When we read these war chapters, it sometimes feels like the Nephites are always winning these amazing victories. But in reality, we're only getting the highlights of what's going on. And it becomes clear as we read on that Nephites are actually losing ground

as much as they're gaining it. So look at verse 8 and 9. And now it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites on the west sea south, while in the absence of Moroni on account of some intrigue among the Nephites, which caused dissensions among them, had gained intrigue among the Nephites, which caused dissensions among them, had gained some ground over the Nephites, in so much that they had obtained possession of a number of the cities in that part of the land. And thus, because of iniquity amongst themselves, yea, because of dissensions and intrigue among themselves, they were placed in the most dangerous

circumstances. In these war chapters, what we see happening is it's like a big chess match. The Nephites are taking some cities, but then the Lamanites take some. This is so how life is. I don't know if you've noticed this, but we all are always playing this game of natural man whack-a-mole. You focus on this part of your life and I'm going to overcome. I got to have victory in this struggle and something else pops up over here. As life goes on, we get new challenges that create new problems. And it's almost like the dam that's about to break. And it's not the old cartoons where it cracks a leak and you stick your finger in that one. And then another one comes over here and you're sometimes we think that the goal is if we can just be righteous enough and be good

enough that all of that will go away and we'll be victorious. But the story of the Nephites doesn't end that way. In fact, the only one that can put an end to this natural man whack-a-mole is when Jesus Christ comes. It's the grace of Christ, the presence of Christ that makes the difference there. It becomes easy to believe that if we're just good enough, then we won't have to struggle anymore. Struggle is a big part of why we're here. But grace is the answer to all that. Not just grace that helps us heal and overcome and win battles, but grace that makes up the difference when we don't. If I'm a listener and I'm struggling with all that I need to do and I'm failing in many different areas.

How does grace play in? Grace is anything that is a gift from God. So remember, anything that God gives us on our behalf that works to our good, that's grace. And the kind of grace we want is like that we've talked about, right? The enabling grace that empowers us to overcome whether it's disease or weakness or whatever. And that is an important kind of grace. But what if the struggle itself is grace? What if one of our whole purposes of being here is to be part of this struggle that stretches us and gives us experience and teaches us to love like God does. So then you start to view the struggle as grace and find God in the struggle. We're going to talk about this with the stripling warriors and our brains think, oh, these guys were perfect. They did everything right. This is the story that we tell ourselves. But really, I think the key to

their success is grace. They keep the commandments because they love them, not because they're terrified that if they don't keep them, that they're going to suffer or something like that. Commandments, the commandments themselves are grace. And when you view the commandments as grace, rather than this thing I have to do so that I can get grace, then that changes your approach to keeping the commandments because now this is a blessing. God is giving this to us as a way to lift us up towards him

rather than somehow condemn us if we don't do well enough. I find that so liberating. You've shown us in these chapters already, this is going to be a constant struggle. There's nothing wrong with you. Life is a constant struggle. There's nothing wrong with you. Life is a constant struggle. You're never going to get to struggle nirvana where I'm good enough. I have no more struggle. It's going to be a constant struggle. And you're saying that's okay. It's not just that it's okay. That is grace. That's what I'm saying. The deck is stacked against us on purpose. Like the Nephites, we're overwhelmed. We're outnumbered.

We're surrounded. We cannot do this ourself. But finding grace in the struggle is so important. You think about little babies who they have to learn how to control their emotions. They cry over everything, you know, and then they get to that golden stage, right? Between like five and ten where everything, they start to get it and they're great and they think their parents are great. And then they become teenagers and their hormones go poof and an alien inhabits their body. They get that figured out and now they've got to get married and that's a

whole new one. And then they start to get that figured out and then they have kids, right? God is not as concerned with our immediate happiness and prosperity as he is with our ability to receive grace and learn to love like him. Yeah, I like that we're all struggling. Verse 1 of chapter 53 says that the Lamanites, they were compelled to bury their dead, yea, and also the dead of the Nephites. The Nephites were dying too. You brought up verses 8 and 9 and say, oh yeah, in the war chapters, it's the Nephites fighting the Lamanites. Well, the Nephites had an enemy within and it was their own issues. In verse 8, there was an intrigue among the Nephites and Moroni had to leave the front and come back and solve this problem. And so verse 9, Mormon tells us, because of iniquity amongst themselves,

to make an application of that. I don't know if there's a whole lot I can do about critics of our church, but I can go to my ward and I can extend grace to everybody I see and try and build and lift people. Because I think if Satan's going to try and get us, it won't just be from the outside, it'll be from the inside. When we look at the prophet Joseph Smith, some of his worst problems were not caused by outsiders, but by people inside that had become disaffected. The Nephites not only had the Lamanites without, but they had their own problems within and the struggle

continued. The struggle continues. I sometimes suffer from what I call future me syndrome. The future me is going to have more time. Future me is going to be healthier. Future me is going to read more. Future me is going to have a lot more freedom than current me has. And the problem with that is future me is always future me, right? Future me should be here by now. I've been talking about it for quite a while. I'd like what you said there, Justin. This is going to be a constant thing. And that is part of the gift God has given us of mortality. Absolutely. Let's jump into the stripling warriors. I mean, this is the crown jewel of this section, probably one of the most well-known

stories in the Book of Mormon for kids especially. These are the ones who were converted by Ammon and followed King Lamoni and Ammon and came and joined the Nephites. As part of that process, they made an oath to never take up their weapons again. In fact, it says they buried them deep in the earth. A lot of powerful symbolism there. This is something, these weapons represented a whole way of life that they were done with, and they don't want to have anything to do with. So they make this oath that they would rather die than take up their weapons again. Let's pick it up in Alma 53 verse 11. And because of their oath, they had been

kept from taking up arms against their brethren. For they had taken an oath that they never would shed blood more. And according to their oath, they would have perished, yea, they would have suffered themselves to have fallen into the hands of their brethren. They're so concerned about this that they would rather die. Down in verse 13, but it came to pass that when they saw the danger and the many afflictions and tribulations, which the Nephites bore for them, they were moved with compassion and were desirous to take up arms in the defense of their country. They see what's going on. They see this struggle. They see people dying to protect them. You can imagine this worry and the way they're working through this in their mind that's

saying, maybe in this case, it's okay for us to go against our oath. And verse 14, But behold, as they were about to take their weapons of war, they were overpowered by the persuasions of Helaman and his brethren, for they were about to break the oath which they had made. Okay, so Helaman comes in. Now let's pause for a second and remind ourselves who Helaman is. Helaman is the oldest child of Alma, Alma the younger, right?

And so Alma 36, when Alma's talking to his kids, he's giving these personalized lessons to his kids and blessings to his kids. Alma 36 is to Helaman. And we know that Helaman then becomes a high priest and he goes out and preaches. For example, Alma 49 verse 30 talks about Helaman declaring the word. His job is that he's a high priest. He's a religious guy. That's where we see him pop up before now.

And somehow it looks like as part of this, he's dealing with the people of Ammon. He's the one, as they're going through this struggle, what do we do? How do we help? He's the one that says, no, that's not worth it. Because whatever physical strength that you could bring to the table, we don't want to risk taking away from the spiritual strength by having you break your oath. Helaman's a remarkable guy. He seems like a chaplain, almost, doesn't he? I like that. Absolutely. We'll call him Chaplain Helaman's a remarkable guy. He seems like a chaplain almost, doesn't he? I like that. Absolutely. We'll call him Chaplain Helaman.

He's out in the battle with them and he's seeing to, what did you say? Their emotional and spiritual welfare. That's a fantastic analogy. There's a really important message here for our struggles in dealing with the struggles of life the big question is you know who are we choosing as our leaders who are we choosing to follow because that's going to have all the impact in the world because they inspire us when spire means breathe into and implies breathe spirit into us. And this is Helaman. I really like that verse.

It's not one I focused on before, Alma 53, 14. I thought of two ways I might apply it. One, the prophet, the leaders of the church can overpower me by their persuasion to not break my covenants. I listen to my leaders. And also, I like to point out when someone is a good friend, I frequently tell my own children, especially my teenage children, you've got to be the type of friend who stands in the way between someone making a terrible decision and say, I wouldn't do this. Like Naaman's friend who says, maybe you ought to do what the prophet says.

What do you think? Maybe you ought to give it a try. You can sense and you feel that dilemma. This was something they voluntarily did to bury their weapons of war. And then in verse 15, because of this covenant, they are compelled to behold their brethren weighed through their afflictions. I think of how I watched my parents work for us. My dad had three jobs at one point. We knew why he was doing it, and it was to bless us, but it didn't make it easy. Here they are watching them fight and die to bless them, and thankfully we get some relief in verse 16. this is where the psychologist part of me comes out because this story is so full of emotion.

The backstory behind this, I'm telling you, this would make a fantastic Hollywood movie. The dynamics of, like you said, being pulled in different directions, wanting to help, but feeling stuck in this dilemma. Like you said in verse 16, so they come up with this solution. Which one is more heart-wrenching? Breaking your oath or having your children go and fight for you? But behold, it came to pass that they had many sons who had not entered into the covenant, that they would not take their weapons of war to defend themselves against their enemies. Therefore, they did assemble themselves together at this time, as many as were able to take up arms, and they called themselves Nephites. And they entered into a covenant to fight for the liberty of the Nephites,

yea, to protect the land unto the laying down of their lives. Yea, even they covenanted that they would never give up their liberty, but they would fight in all cases to protect the Nephites and themselves from bondage. Wow, there's some really amazing comparisons here because you remember their parents' oaths that they would lay down their weapons and die so that they never have to take it up again. Now here are their sons

who are now making a different oath, very different oath. We are willing to lay down our lives so that they don't have to pick up their weapons again. What a crazy experience this must be for the people of Ammon to watch these young men say, we will take up arms, but for a completely different reason than our parents used to take up arms for. Now let's talk about these sons first. To really bring out this emotion behind this, let's talk about the stripling warriors, these 2,000 stripling warriors. What do we know about them? We know they're stripling.

That's a Middle English word for youths. So what does that mean? I would say they're not old enough to be normally expected to fight at this point remember they grew up in a pacifist culture they probably didn't even play sword fight or whatever with sticks like most kids do because that was so shunned in this culture now we know that they're strong and hard, but they know nothing about fighting. So to ask them now to say, okay, will you take up these weapons, start this lifestyle that you know nothing about in order to defend us? That's a big ask, not just for these youth, but for their families as well. What an interesting point.

They're growing up with parents who no longer take up the sword. Maybe they haven't been trained in fighting in battle. If you were to take a sampling of high school students, you would have some that maybe look like football players and warriors or whatever, but you'd also have some that look like they're still 12. And that's got to be a scary thing when you're the little guy. Remember the second word that I talked about at the beginning was courage. This is where we're going to learn all about courage. No combat experience. And now they go out, but they have so much faith and love

for their family and their situation that they're willing to do it. Verse 19, And now behold, as they never had hitherto been a disadvantage to the Nephites, they became now at this period of time also a great support. For they took their weapons of war, and they would that Helaman should be their leader. Now let's really quickly remember who Helaman is. He's not a trained fighter either. He's a high priest. This is amazing. You have a group of untrained kids who chooses their leader, an untrained religious leader or chaplain, like you said, who has also probably been mostly a pacifist as well, to some degree,

just has avoided this type of thing because that wasn't where his expertise lied. Now, verse 20, it tells us a little more about these young men. And they were all young men, and they were exceedingly valiant for courage and also for strength and activity. But behold, this was not all. They were men who were true at all times in whatsoever thing they were entrusted. And verse 21, yea, they were men of truth and soberness, for they had been taught to keep the commandments of God and to walk uprightly before him. Now, maybe they're not perfect like most teenagers aren't. Where it matters is they have courage and a desire, a willingness to do the right thing.

I see this section as them, basically these young men are saying, here am I, send me. This verse 20 reminds me of something that I learned from Robert L. Millett. You guys know him and he's been on our podcast. He mentioned one time that to the Greeks, truth, it was all about learning the truth and knowing truth. To the Hebrews, truth wasn't something that you know, it's something that you do. The wording here is inspiring. They were men who were true. It's not they were men who knew the truth, but they were true. I think of a bicycle wheel. When I was first getting into road biking, someone said, is your tire true? And I was like, what do you mean?

Is it true? And the idea was, is it working correctly? Is it balanced and centered? The stripling warriors, we'll come back to them in a minute. But we learn about this letter exchange between Moroni and Ammaron. Ammaron sends and says, hey, we want to exchange prisoners. Moroni's had it with Ammaron and his war. What he feels is really unethical warfare because they don't just capture combatants. They're also capturing women and children and taking them. And in Moroni's response

to Ammaron who wants to exchange prisoners, you can feel that he's upset. And he doesn't just say, no, I don't want to exchange with you, or here's my terms. First, he's got to tell Ammaron how he feels about him. Moroni has certain narratives in his mind, and so does Ammaron. They have these lenses. Remember, that was the third word that I was going to talk about. He sees Ammaron through these lenses. And Ammaron has got his own lenses. And they've changed, by the way, since he now is a Lamanite rather than Nephite.

So you're going to see that anger and that frustration. Moroni is frustrated with this war that's been going on for so long. We see in verse 7, for example, and this is in Moroni's response, Yea, I would tell you these things if you were capable of hearkening to them. Yea, I would tell you concerning that awful hell that awaits to receive such murderers as thou and thy brother have been, except you repent and withdraw your murderous purposes and return with your armies to your own lands. Verse 11, in the middle there, it says, it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell. And in verse 13, behold, I am in my anger and

also my people. You have sought to murder us and we've only sought to defend ourselves. And from where Moroni is coming from, this is all true and probably from God's perspective as well. But what's interesting is how Ammaron receives this. This is a great example of contention, like a conflict between two people and how this tends to escalate because of these different lenses on different sides. And his perspective is this. We see it in verse 15. It talks about how he's so angry with Moroni's letter. Then we get into verse 17. For behold, your fathers did wrong their brethren, meaning Laman and Lemuel, insomuch that they did rob them of their right to the government when it rightly belonged to them.

Ammaron, who's a former Nephite, is now taking on this perspective of the Nephites are bad, and they're the ones that need to be put in their place. There's this back and forth. And you notice that Ammaron, his own lenses get in the way of him achieving his goals. He wants to exchange prisoners. He needs to exchange prisoners, but because he gets so angry and worked up over it, he responds in a way that causes Captain Moroni to say, yeah, forget it. Nevermind. We can get them back ourselves. Justin, you mentioned it supposeth me that thou art a child of hell. My students might say, brother, by the way, would Jesus talk that way? And I say,

a footnote 11a takes you to John 8, 44, where Jesus is up at the Feast of Tabernacles and he says to those who are plotting to kill him, you are of your father, the devil, which is like saying you're a child of hell. You don't have to be a doormat and let evil run all over you. Going back to verse 13 here, it's a little more subtle this time, but why are these two sides fighting? Okay, you have sought to murder us. We have sought to murder us. We have sought to defend ourselves. Well, Ammaron says, well, actually it's because your fathers did wrong their brethren. This 450, 540 years ago, they have been, speaking of lenses, brought up. We've been wronged in this. We've been wronged in this.

We've been wronged in this. It brings up this interesting question. Does Ammaron believe this stuff or is he just using it? Because Malachi, it's pretty clear there was some deception involved. Very good liar. The human mind is fascinating and it has this endless ability to deceive us. The natural man in us, we create these narratives that fit what we need and we start to believe them. It's called confirmation bias. You start to only pay attention to evidence that supports what you already believe. I think that's partly what's going on here. But of course, this is why Moroni is so upset with Amarant, because he knows he's a fraud. Here's Moroni. I will arm my women, my children. I will come against you. I will follow you to your own land.

It'll be blood for blood, life for life. I'll give you battle until you're destroyed from off the face of the earth. And how do you close a letter like that? Love, Moroni. Verse 14, this is how he closes. I close my epistle. I'm Moroni. I'm a leader of the people of Nephites.

I like that he takes a stance. I won't negotiate with evil. From what you and Justin said, I thought of a story that I don't think I've ever shared with you. I was a young seminary teacher. A dad came in and his son was headed in the wrong direction. He obviously was really concerned with what was happening. And I was young. I said, Hey, I'm going to do my best to help him along the way. If he'll come to seminary, right, I'm going to try to do whatever I can to help him get off this trajectory. And I still remember he was weeping. He looked at me and he said, well, we'll do whatever we have to do. I will not lose my son. It was like this Moroni moment of, I will go toe to toe with evil and I will not lose

my child. I mean, it's been 20 years since, but I still remember that moment of he is willing to go to war with evil and call it what it is, like what Mormon's doing here. In chapter 55, we get Moroni's response to this back and forth letter. He says, I'm not going to negotiate. And he decides to come up with a plan to get the prisoners back without an exchange. We get this in chapter 55. To summarize the plan, he searches among his

men and he finds one who's of Lamanite descent. His name is even Laman, surprisingly. Laman pretends to be a Lamanite soldier and he acts like, oh, I've captured this fresh batch of wine from the Nephites. And he takes it and he uses some reverse psychology on him. No, you can't drink this. You don't want to drink this now. Wouldn't you rather have this later? And of course, that just makes them want it more. They begin to drink to the point where they were all drunken. In verse 15, we see, and now when Laman and his men saw that they were all drunken and were in a deep sleep, they returned to Moroni and told him all the things that had happened. And now this was according to the design of Moroni. And Moroni had prepared his men with weapons of war, and they went to the city Gid while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep and

drunken and cast in weapons of war unto the prisoners insomuch that they were all armed. I've often wondered how they did that, because I guess on the other side of a wall, okay, everybody back up. We're going to start chucking some javelins in there. You might want to move to the side. They start, catch! They start throwing weapons of war in there. They kept throwing the boomerangs,

but they kept coming back. But anyway, they throw the other weapons in. I've always imagined that as kind of a funny thing. Wait, left side, right? Your left, my left. Where do we go? Good thing the Lamanites are all asleep, huh? I had a teacher once tell me in verse 22 that the prisoners are armed on the inside and then the Nephites are armed on the outside.

And he said, when it comes to fighting evil, I still remember this. He said, you need to be a skunk and a porcupine. Armed from within and armed from without. Oh, wow. you need to be a skunk and a porcupine armed from within and armed from without oh wow both sides you know i'm gonna try harder to be a skunk i'm gonna tell my wife that she'll probably get a porcupine i love the understatement of mormon too the prisoners are armed on the inside they're armed on the outside and then it's we find that it is not expedient that we should fight at this time. That's kind of a really calm reaction there.

Obviously, the Nephites take the city. They free the prisoners, take the Lamanites captive. And this marks this change for a little while where momentum shifts in the favor of the Nephites. We look at verse 28, and it came to pass that the Nephites began again to be victorious and reclaim their rights and their privileges. So remember sort of this back and forth thing, but now the momentum is in their favor. The danger when you start having success, again, like we talked about before, is that you become complacent. That sets up for problems in the future, especially because of what Moroni did. You can imagine Ammaron's pretty upset about this. After their letter exchange, he did not like to be on the losing end of this one. The Lamanites are going to try and trick the Nephites in the same

way. But verse 31 says, the Nephites are ready for this. But behold, the Nephites were not slow to remember the Lord their God in this their time of affliction. So many times that's happened in the past where they forget, but not this time. They're paying attention. They could not be taken in their snares. Yea, they would not partake of their wine, say they had first given to some of the Lamanite prisoners. So in other words, they're on their guard. Spiritual application for that is so important. Just because you have a little success, sometimes success is followed by greater temptation. It sounds like Mormon draws out, don't be slow to remember God in the time of your affliction.

We're supposed to remember God all the time, but in the time of your affliction, don't interpret that, oh, God's not caring about me or not loving me. Oh, no, he's still aware. Verse 32, think of all the ways you can apply this. They were cautious that no poison should be administered among them. Of all the poisons that are out there, I remember a story that Elder Spencer J. Condie told. He was in Europe with his wife and they found these different mushrooms that they could buy. I'm quoting from, this is in the last century,

the new era, February of 1990. Elder Condie said, among the poisonous mushrooms is one called the jack-o'-lantern mushroom. The body reacts to its poison very quickly with violent nausea and vomiting. Because of this immediate reaction, the jack-o'-lantern is not fatal. A much more dangerous mushroom is called the destroying angel. Would you eat anything called the destroying angel? Just one or two in a batch of two dozen can poison an entire family. Because it tastes like an edible mushroom and has no immediate effect, the victim keeps on eating.

Then 6 to 15 hours later when it's digested and its poisons have entered the bloodstream, the victim experiences severe nausea and cramps and unquenchable thirst. It eventually destroys the liver. There is no known antidote and the fatality rate is about 90%. Just as there are

different kinds of poisonous mushrooms, there are different kinds of music, movies, magazines, poisons that poison the spirits of men and women. Some are like the jack-o'-lantern mushrooms. Their impact is so repulsive and objectionable that we immediately reject them. But there are other kinds of music, movies, magazines that work like the destroying angel. At first, we have no idea what we are listening to or watching or reading is slowly and surely poisoning our very souls. I like what you pointed out there. Verse 28, they began again to be victorious and to reclaim their rights and privileges. And then verse 31, but they were not slow to remember the Lord their God. So it seems that they are mindful of their own

tendencies. Maybe they've been through this so many times they're going, okay, we're starting to have some wins here. Normally we would forget God. Let's not do that this time. Let's not do a victory lap. Let's keep preparing. Learn from our mistakes. What happens next? Chapter 56. This is a letter. So now we're going to have Helaman is sending this letter to Captain Moroni.

The first part of this, he summarizes the stuff we've already talked about where we introduce the 2000 stripling warriors. He talks about them making a covenant to protect their people and marching forth at the head. Now, Helaman is telling everything to Captain Moroni. Basically, for these next few chapters, this is all this letter. Here's what he tells us, basically. Helaman marches at the head of his 2,000 stripling warriors, and they go and join a portion of the Nephites. One of the problems that they have in these cities is that now when the Lamanites take a city, it's fortified. It's going to take

quite a bit more, a much larger force to be able to push out the Lamanites out of the city. And this is what we talked about before. It's harder to push them out. As we talk about this, I want you to be thinking about that battle that we have with ourself when we're trying to push out some bad aspect of our life and how difficult that can be because of the way the brain works and how our brains build neural pathways to make it more automatic to do certain behaviors and so on. It takes a lot of work and effort to make important changes. One of the challenges that they run into, and we see this in verse 21 of chapter 56, is that they want the Lamanites to come out to them.

Now we were desirous that the Lamanites should come upon us, for we were not desirous to make an attack upon them and their strongholds. Think about that with your own weakness. It is so much harder to make changes and have spiritual victories in your life when you keep it inside. When you hold that stuff inside of you and try and do it yourself, like we talked about earlier. Sin, sinfulness, natural man, those kinds of things, as we keep it inside, it stays fortified in there and it festers. It's almost like athlete's foot or something. It gets worse in the dark and the key is to air it out. Whatever your struggle is, whether it's some sort of personal weakness or relationship struggles

or struggle with doubt, testimony, those types of things, in order to be able to overcome it, you got to draw it out. You got to get it out in the open so it can be exposed to the light. But as we keep it inside, it just sort of churns and spins there. I like that. I've learned through the years of working with so many students that secrecy seems to be the lifeblood of addiction. Keep it secret and it keeps going, keeps going. A confession can be such an airing out, like you said, having close friends, parents that you talk to about your problems, even like you said, doubts, not just sins, but doubts and questions. Let's get that out of its stronghold. The story continues. They come up with this plan. We get

in, pick this up in verse 30. Now, when we saw the Lamanites began to grow uneasy on this wise, we were desirous to bring a stratagem into effect upon them. Therefore, Antipas ordered that I should march forth with my little sons to a neighboring city as if we were carrying provisions to a neighboring city. They are the bait. The stripling warriors become the bait. Now let's talk about why they're such good bait. There's a couple of things here. Now, clearly in the story, the strategy is to, the goal is to not have them fight if possible. We're going to use them to draw out the Lamanites, but I don't know. I mean, I would imagine they're still not

ready to take on a fight. They're still just learning how to fight. But I don't know. I mean, I would imagine they're still not ready to take on a fight. They're still just learning how to fight. They're not very big. I've often wondered, you know, why don't they integrate these young men with more experienced troops? But instead, they stay as their own unit with Helaman, inexperienced Helaman as the leader. I don't know that anybody's expecting them to actually have to fight. But the main reason why they're such a good target, so they're young and inexperienced, but they're Lamanites. Can you imagine how the Lamanites react to seeing this army of young Lamanites fighting for the Nephites? They probably know what this group of individuals represents for morale for the Nephites as well.

So this is a really tempting target. They walk past the fortifications of the Lamanites and the Lamanites decide to take the bait and they jump on it. This is the ultimate story of wow, miraculous victory in battle against all odds. And actually there's several of these. We're going to see these kinds of stories in chapter 56, in chapter 57, chapter 58, all of which involve these young men, the incredible courage that it takes. The Lamanite army comes out after them. The stripling warriors take off running to avoid the battle. And then the Nephite army, they follow. You got one chasing the other and the chase goes on and on and on until they get to the point where all of a sudden the stripling

warriors wake up and the Lamanites are no longer chasing them. It creates this really interesting situation. Verse 39, it came to pass that before the dawn of the morning, behold, the Lamanites were pursuing us. Now, we were not sufficiently strong to contend with them. Okay, so again, this is not the army of football players. Yea, I would not suffer that my little sons. He calls them little sons. That gives you an idea. Should fall into their hands.

Therefore, we did continue our march and we took our march into the wilderness so they're running but then when they turn around and find that the lamanites are no longer following it becomes this big dilemma do we go back and fight it appears that was never really the plan but no plan survives first contact of the enemy things go differently than they expected. And now they worry, we need to go back and help the other army. Imagine the emotion behind this. These young men who've never fought, they don't know. This is a warrior culture. The Lamanites are a warrior culture. They grow up training to be warriors from a young age. They have to make a decision

without knowing how it's going to turn out. Man, have you ever been there before? What are we going to find when we go back there? Yeah. And either, like, there's so much danger. Either way you choose. Verse 44, we pick up the story. Therefore, what say ye, my sons?

Will ye go against them to battle? Do you want to go? We have to make this decision together. I want to bring something out here because I think this is so important. We sometimes look at these young men as though these were spiritual giants and they did everything right and had perfect faith. But like I said before, these are teenagers. And though they had a lot of faith, it was the faith of a child. I'm sure they were terrified. The important thing to remember here is that courage is born in defining moments. This is one of those moments that it builds on all of the things that have happened in the past. And so he asks, what should we do? Do we take the easy road or do we follow our covenants?

There's not even a hesitation. Look at this. And now I say unto you, my beloved brother Moroni, that never had I seen so great courage, nay, not amongst all the Nephites. This is the magic forth. We would not slay our brethren if they would let us alone. Therefore, let us go, lest they overpower the army of Antipas. This is the magic that every commander in battle wants to find among their troops. This willingness, motivation, zeal for the battle, not for fighting, but for the cause. As we mentioned before, I worked at the Pentagon for a while doing Marine Corps spiritual fitness. Spiritual fitness is a real push in the Marine

Corps. The way they teach it is to win a battle, you have to have the skill and the will. You got to have the skill. That's why we do training and different things like that. But you got to have the will to follow through when it's hard. When the battle turns against you, that will to keep you going. They call that spiritual fitness, right? You're staying power. You're why in life. Why are we doing this? Why are we going through it? In Marine Corps spiritual fitness, they'll say this, that regardless of what your religion background is or lack of religious background, there are five elements for your spiritual fitness, spiritual well-being that every person

should have. Having a connection to the divine, membership in a transformative community, pursuit of meaning and significance, join in shared sacrifice for a greater good, and commit to character and a life of honor. That's how the Marine Corps defines spiritual fitness. And I think every single one of these fits perfectly with these young men. Now, they may not be perfect in all ways, but they choose to have a relationship with God. They're completely involved in their religious community. Meaning and significance, that's where this oath is going to come in. We'll talk about sacrifice for a greater good and commitment to character and a life of honor.

That's spiritual fitness. That's the stripling warriors. And that's what we want all our young men and women to be like, to have that in their life because of the benefits. And the reason the Marine Corps jumps on and all the military jumps on this is because research shows that when you have those things in your life, greater levels of happiness, success, well-being in general. That's wonderful. The skill and the will. And it sounds like we're looking at these young men. They might not have the skill because they were pretty new at this. They had the will. They knew why they were there.

And a connection to the divine. Like you said, behold, our God is with us. Now there's more to this story too. Wow, I wish we had the backstory on this. It's not really in there. But verse 47, they share with us their why, a little more about their why. Now, they had never fought, yet they did not fear death. And they did think more upon the liberty of their fathers than they did upon their lives. Yea, they had been taught by their mothers

that if they did not doubt, God would deliver them. And they rehearsed unto me the words of their mothers saying, we do not doubt our mothers knew it. The first thing we need to talk about here is the influence of mothers. I sit in awe of my wife and I watch how the kids just, their whole world sort of revolves around her. Even the teenagers and the young adults, they don't even realize, but they have to constantly touch base with mom. And so much of who they are is shaped by their mom. That's really important to acknowledge here. Here are these young men. And by the way, you'll see this in combat, that when people are on the battlefield, when they get injured, when they're dying, who do they think of most? Mom, right? That's who they call for. That's who they want assurance from is their mother. But when I read

this, there's something else going on to this story, something with their mothers. They did not doubt that their mothers knew it. I wish we had this story, but it hints to me that there was some kind of spiritual manifestation to the mothers of these young men back when they were making the decision to go out there, back when these young men are making their oath to go and be willing to lay down their lives. It seems that somehow the mothers felt inspired to make a promise on behalf of God. If you will do these things, if you will be obedient, follow every command from your leaders, show courage, then not one of you will fall. I think there's plenty of mothers out there who feel like they're not a very good mother, right?

This doesn't describe them because their kids are not this good or something like that. You don't know the influence that you've had. I've always loved the story that Elder Maxwell told. There's a lot of our listeners who are too young to remember Neal A. Maxwell, but the story goes like this. My only surviving aunt said that sometime in May of 1945, she doesn't remember the day, mother had told her the next day that she and dad had prayed their usual vocal prayer and included me, of course, and my sisters. Then they got into bed and began to sleep. And mother said, Clarence, we've got to get out of bed and pray again. Neil is in grave danger. They got out of bed and prayed again for me. I don't know which

day that was, but I rather imagine, given time zones and all that, it would have probably been when Japanese artillery shelling occurred at its worst stage. The phrase that comes to mind from the Book of Mormon is about some other young men who went off to war and what they said was, we do not doubt' mothers at home. Maybe in this exact moment of Alma 56, my son is in grave danger. I've also loved this story from Elder Holland, though it's a little bit chilling. Elder Holland says he was having a conversation with a beloved friend of more than 50 years who was dying and he had been away from the church, even though he knew in his heart the church was true.

No matter how much I tried to comfort him, I could not seem to bring him peace. Finally, he leveled with me. Jeff, however painful it is going to be for me to stand before God, I cannot bear the thought of standing before my mother. The gospel and her children meant everything to her. I know I have broken her heart, and that is breaking mine. Elder Holland goes on and says, Now I am absolutely certain that upon his passing, his mother received my friend with open loving arms. That is what parents do. But the cautionary portion of this story is that children can break their mother's heart. Here too, we see another comparison with the divine.

He compares mothers to Christ. I need not remind us that Jesus died of a broken heart, one weary and worn out from bearing the sins of the world. So in any moment of our temptation, may we behold our mother as well as our savior and spare them both the sorrow. Elder Holland, in this talk, it's called Behold Thy Mother. He says, think of the words that describe Jesus's ministry, bear, born, carry, deliver. He says, can you hear in this language, another arena of human endeavor in which we talk about bear and born, carry, labor, and deliver? As Jesus said to John while in the very act of the atonement, behold thy mother. These are great moments to ponder and think on of your mom.

Armed with this protection from their mothers, they decide to turn around and they come back just in time to find the Lamanites falling on the army of Antipas, and Antipas was about to be overpowered. But Helaman and his amazing stripling warriors don't hesitate. They attack with such strength. Well, let's read it. Verse 52. And it came to pass that the Lamanites took courage and began to pursue them, Antipas' army. And thus were the Lamanites pursuing them with great vigor when Helaman came upon their rear with his 2,000 and began to slay them exceedingly, insomuch that the whole army of the Lamanites halted and turned upon Helaman.

Now, because of the timely arrival of the 2,000 stripling warriors, the battle is won by the Nephites. The Lamanites are taken prisoner. Let's pick it up in verse 55 now. And now it came to pass that when they had surrendered themselves up unto us, behold, I numbered those young men who had fought with me, fearing lest there were many of them slain. But behold, to my great joy, there had not one soul of them fallen to the earth.

Yea, and they had fought as if with the strength of God. Yea, never were men known to have fought with such miraculous strength. And with such mighty power did they fall upon the Lamanites that they did frighten them. And for this cause did the Lamanites deliver themselves up as prisoners of war. And this is an amazing story. How do these young men who have very little skill overpower such a greater, more skilled force? And it's because of the strength of God. There's a great quote by Major General John Lejeune, who was the commandant of the Marine Corps way back when. I love it because I think it applies really well here. He says, there's no substitute for the spiritual in war. Miracles must be wrought if victories are to be won. And to work miracles, men's heart must be a fire with self-sacrificing love for each other, for their units, for their division, and for their country. If each man knows that all the officers and men in his division are animated with that same fiery zeal as he himself feels, unquenchable courage and unconquerable

determination crush out fear and death becomes preferable to defeat or dishonor. This is these young men. That will, that faith and meaning and covenant that drives them. That's what keeps them going. Now they all get wounded and yet the covenant promised by their mothers holds true. John, Justin, I have had a story that I've been hanging onto for this lesson, just published in the Deseret News by our friend, Ted Walsh. The title of the article is Miracle at Gap Yong. I think that's how you say it. It talks about Elder Holland helped create this video, and we can link it in our show notes.

It says, 73 years ago this month, a U.S. infantry offensive designed to trap Chinese and North Korean soldiers worked well, but it left its supporting Utah National Guard artillery unit unprotected. When 4,000 enemy soldiers tried to escape the trap, they stumbled upon the 240 Utah artillery men and launched a middle-of-the-night surprise attack. Outnumbered 16 to 1, the Americans fought for their lives. One soldier manned a.50 caliber machine gun that he fired until the barrel melted.

Others were thrust into hand-to-hand combat. Elder Holland actually talks about these soldiers because they were from Southern Utah, St. George, Cedar City, Richfield, Beaver, and Fillmore. Elder Holland says, these young men were from my home area in Southern Utah, just a bit older than me. When I was 10 years old, they were shipping off to Korea, and I couldn't have imagined what they were about to face in that war-torn country. None of us could. And it talked about that. They don't know what is around that corner. Are we going to go to battle? Because what are they going to find as they go back in? It says, the 213th was comprised of young men, generally between the ages of 18 and 22, who were chiefly

Latter-day Saints. Before they left for Korea, they were invited to a meeting in the St. George, Utah temple, where temple president Harold Snow promised them that if they were faithful to God and kept the commandments, God would watch over them and preserve them. And then on May 26, 1951, they were providing this artillery support. During the middle of the night, they found themselves under attack by 4,000 enemy soldiers. When dawn broke, the Chinese and North Korean attacked east. Captain Ray Cox organized a combat patrol of 18 men to launch a counterattack around a self-propelled 155 howitzer that the patrol used like a tank. For hours, Captain Cox's small band, so there's 18 of them, outnumbered now 220 to one, rolled through the valley, taking out enemy machine gun emplacements.

Some of the members of the 213th were wounded, but none were killed. The presidential citation issued seven months later praised the unit for its unshakable determination and gallantry. This video was made this year. We'll link it in our show notes. It's about 11 minutes long, all about this Southern Utah artillery unit in Korea. Amazing story. This story of the stripling warriors, as well as that story, it highlights that there are sometimes when God, that's his promise.

If you are faithful, you'll be protected. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes these kind of miracles that we're hoping for don't happen. People die, people get sick and diseases and different things like that. And so it's hard to understand. We're going to see an example of that. That really comes out in chapter 57 because the stripling warriors are compared to the other Nephite army where lots die. I would imagine that for the families of those who died, this is, well, it's an inspiring story. It's a little bit, it chafes a little bit, right?

Let's dive into 57. The Nephites are getting reinforcements the way that they should. They have a big group of 6,000 that join them, along with another 60 stripling warriors to join Helaman. The result is that they are able to win some victories. They have some good success, but along with that comes a huge load of prisoners. They've got these Lamanite prisoners, and they have to send them with a portion of their army to send them back to Zarahemla. Well, shortly after that, they have this surprise attack where they're attacked by the Lamanites. And again, they really have to fight to protect themselves. We pick up the story, especially with the stripling warriors in verse 19.

But behold, my little band of two thousand and sixty fought most desperately. Yea, they were firm before the Lamanites and did administer death unto all those who opposed them. And as a remainder of our army were about to give way before the Lamanites, behold, those two thousand and sixty were firm and undaunted. Yea, and they did obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness. Yea, even according to their faith it was done unto them. And I did remember the words which they said unto me that their mothers had taught them. If we're going back to finding the active ingredients in victory over struggle,

just like the Marine Corps is trying to do, I would say that some of them come out here. Complete obedience. They followed Helaman's commands with exactness, regardless of if it meant they were going to lose their life in the process. They were willing to lay down their life in order to obey. Number two, they have this incredible faith that keeps coming out. And we constantly get reminded of this covenant, this covenant that keeps us going. Again, remember, it doesn't mean that they were all perfectly obedient in all aspects of their life. They're willing, willing to do the best they can to obey. Well, this reminds me of the pioneers. There's a story when saints were being driven out of Nauvoo. The last group, they had been given time, supposedly have time to get out, but then the mobs drive them out early. So they're kind of

on the banks of the river and needing help getting across. Brigham Young finds out about this and he sends a group of rescuers back to help them out. And these are really poor people that didn't have the money yet. They're not ready, driven out of their homes, not really ready to take all the things that they have. But Brigham Young calls up rescuers and says, now is the time for labor. Listen to this part. Let the fire of the covenant, which you made in the house of the Lord, burn in your hearts like flame unquenchable. Elder Merrill J. Bateman, when he's talking about this story and the fire of the covenant, he said, the fire of the covenant spoken of by

President Young is not an imaginary, but a real force in the lives of all faithful saints. The rescuers, as well as the last remnants on the bank of the Mississippi were strengthened by it. Most, if not all of us, have felt the burning as well. A personal witness received at baptism lights the fire. The intensity of the flame increases as we face adversity, and the furnace of affliction tempers our soul. The flame bursts into a full-fledged fire as we enter into and live special covenants with the Lord Jesus Christ. So that fire of the covenant is such a key to keep us going through hard times, remembering our promises, not just what we promise, but the

blessings that are promised to us as a result of the covenant. As I read this chapter and I hear about exact obedience, two things come to mind that I think you could comment on. One, how crucial is obedience in the military? Because we often hear stories of, oh, he disobeyed that order. Oh, wasn't he courageous? He disobeyed that order. But I'm sure for every one of those, there's, oh, he's so courageous, he obeyed that order. is as Latter-day Saints, some have a tendency to really get down on themselves if they're not exactly obedient. Do you see both sides of that question? Just in your experience in the military, let's take on the first question. How crucial is obedience? I want to start by saying this. I don't believe that righteousness and obedience are automatically the same thing. I think righteousness is something that comes from our relationship with Jesus Christ. Like I said earlier, I believe commandments is a manifestation of grace and our obedience leads us to that relationship with Jesus Christ.

But it is also possible to get really down on yourself because I don't know that it is possible to be exactly obedient in all things in this life. The game is fixed against us. It makes it become really hard just because of the way that our brains work. And if you focus too much on that obedience, then it can become like the Pharisees where you miss out on the relationship aspect. Viewing obedience as a part of our discipleship is important because it leads us to have a relationship with Christ. In this situation, you're talking about the military, there are times when obedience is so crucial because you cannot always see the big picture. You are commanded to do something, you're unit, or you need to do this, you need to move to this place,

or take this hill, or whatever it is. But in your limited perspective, that may not make sense. If you rely on your perspective and base it off what you think is right, then it could cause problems for the whole. And if I had to guess one of the reasons why the stripling warriors were so effective strategically and tactically is because they work together as a unit so well. That's how you make up for lack of skill is through obedience. The fact that they follow through with everything, even if they can't figure out how, if he says you need to protect this hill at all costs, then that's what they do. I like both answers there because it's

important to have both. Obedience is absolutely crucial. I like both answers there because it's important to have both. Obedience is absolutely crucial. I like how you address that question, Justin, because on one end of the spectrum, obedience is critical to success. And on the other end, repentance is the second principle of the gospel on purpose. When you make repentance the second principle of the gospel, I think it's built in that you're going to not be exactly obedient. The fact that we have the sacrament every week tells you the Lord is like, yeah, yeah, you're going to need to do this a lot. Yeah. The gospel is all about obedience and discipleship. And I think it's important that when we read this story, we don't make the assumption

that obedience and faith are always 100% linked to being delivered from whatever the struggle is. And our brains can easily say, oh, it's because they were obedient enough that they didn't die. Well, that's going to create a lot of problems for you. And we read in verse 26, there's this comparison, right? And now their preservation was astonishing to our whole army. Yea, that they should be spared while there were a thousand of our brethren who were slain. Wow, that's amazing that the 2000s and 60s survived, it's pretty painful for those who didn't. We ask ourselves, well, why? The automatic answer is the 2000s stripling warriors were more faithful. That's going to cause problems for your faith later on.

Because though God is able to deliver us from whatever it is, death or challenges, he doesn't sometimes. I see this story. This is a really good example of how God's grace is so all-encompassing. His grace can be there to protect us. And does he send miracles like this? Times when people who have cancer are healed miraculously? Sure. But are there just as many or not, if not more times when people who have just as much faith are not healed? Yeah. But don't forget that there is also grace in the alternative. There's grace in the struggle, grace in the loss, especially for those who have

fought valiantly, even though their end was different than the stripling warriors. It reminds me of a story that my wife has told in a talk for church before, but she tells this story of being at the mall with one of the kids. She wanted to go into one of the stores. Of course, no, it's time to go home. She goes into this tantrum there on the floor because she wanted to go into that store. And it was not a little tantrum. It was a full-on tantrum.