followHIM - Corinthians 1- 7 Part 2 • Dr. Teresa Bell • Aug 21 - Aug 27

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Dr. Teresa Bell continues exploring how the Saints can establish a spiritual foundation, remain chaste, and gain the Spirit of the Lord.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-31-40/00:00 Part II–Dr. Teresa Bell00:07 Spiritual knowledge and language study02:50 Milk before meat05:29 Elder Corbridge and primary questions08:12 Elder Packer “Feed My Sheep”10:52 “A Teacher Come from God”15:29 You are the temple of God18:16 Refiner’s fire21:23 Hugh Nibley “Faith of an Observer”22:26 Henry Eyring Sr and the Nobel Prize24:15 Perceptions of non-believers27:14 Wise in Christ29:08 Wickedness of Corinth32:35 Protecting the good name of the Church37:12 Body of Christ42:55 Christ paid the price44:15 Elder Holland “Of Soul, Symbols, and Sacraments”46:40 Dr. Bell shares her journey as a scholar and Latter-day Saint53:05 End of Part II–Dr. Teresa BellPlease rate and review the podcast!YouTube: https://youtu.be/b35YeI4-GWQFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYThanks to the follow HIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Continue listening for part two with Dr. Teresa Bell, 1 Corinthians 1-7. Teresa, anything else on verse 14? The natural man receiveth not the Spirit of God, it's foolishness to them. Yes, and it's hard to differentiate that from spiritual. This past week, I've been grading AP German exams, and there are some colleagues that I work closely with, and they both know that I'm a member of the church. And they think they understand how missions and language learning work for members of the church and missionaries. And it's really cute to hear them kind of explain. The thing that they cannot understand is that it's the spirit that helps the missionaries

learn languages. They're set apart to be able to learn a language. The spirit helps them while they're at the MTC learn a language. The Spirit helps them continue to learn while they're on their missions and to be able to share the gospel to people, with people, so that they can hear it in their own tongue. And that is something that they just don't understand. Well, one of the things now is the dual language immersion classes. The students come up through the ranks and they're pretty good and stuff. And then they take the AP exam in ninth grade, and then they're free to not do the language anymore. But they wanted to know how that compared with missionaries before they leave the MTC, like when they leave the MTC and where they are.

And you can't even compare. Like, it's not even the same thing. I would try to bring up that there's a Christ-like spiritual nature about things. They just go blank. They just look at you like, yeah, whatever. That's funny. That's really cute. How interesting. I think I've seen that before too, where a miracle happens or

something supernatural happens and it's explained away. Well, it must be this. It can't be the spirit. It can't be something from God. It's got to be something else. You know what I love in that same topic is that to encourage missionaries out there who are, I'm afraid I can't learn a language, is section 90 verse 11, for it shall come to pass in that day that every man shall hear the fullness of the gospel in his own tongue and in his own language through those who are ordained unto this power. And I just think the Lord has a promise to keep. That knowledge will give you help and power, that the Lord's going to help. This think the Lord has a promise to keep. That knowledge will give you

help and power, that the Lord's going to help. This is the Lord's promise. So, He's going to help you do this because He has a promise to keep, and He's good at keeping His promises. He's really good at it. Then in verse 14, study and learn and become acquainted with languages, tongues, and people. And it's a commandment, not just to missionaries, but we're all admonished to do that. I bet that's one of your favorites. Oh, you know it is. I have 9-11 Mark 2, one of my favorites. Paul finishes this chapter wonderfully.

Who hath known the mind of the Lord? Who's going to instruct him, right? Who's going to be the one to go, you know what? I could teach you a thing or two, Jesus, about the universe, about the world. It's almost a mic drop moment right there where he says, you can't teach the Lord anything, so allow him to teach you.

Teresa, let's move on through these next few chapters. Where do you want to go now? Let's go to chapter three. This is another great one. This is where the milk before meat comes up in the church. And this is something that we've heard many times, I'm sure, in the church, and how babies can only have milk. They can't have meat yet. These first three verses are really kind of cool to look at. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk and not with meat. For hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal, for whereas there is among you envying and strife and divisions, are ye not carnal and walk as men? And I love this so much. I mean, we do hear that a lot, the milk before meat kind of

thing, but even just looking at it and comparing it into the, even as babes in Christ, we know what it means. We know what the comparison is, but to stop and think about these saints at the time, people who join the church today, people who go a long time without immersing themselves in the gospel and trying to learn more, you have to start with the milk before you can have the meat. One of the things this reminds me of so much is the talk by Elder Corbridge, Lawrence Corbridge. Do you remember this from 2020? Stand Forever? Yeah, yeah. Stand on the Rock of Revelation. That talk is so great, where he talks about the primary and secondary questions. And this to me is exactly what he was

talking about. The milk is the primary questions. And then the meat is the secondary questions, which if you understand the primary, that's what you need to know. And once you have a grasp on that, then you're okay to learn about the more complicated secondary questions. But a lot of times it just doesn't even matter after that. So is Paul saying here, I want to teach you more. I've got to give you a mill canal because you're not ready for it. Verse three, you're still quite carnal. Yes. You still have a lot of envying and fighting and divisions among you. You're still fighting over, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos. So maybe he's saying you've got to get over this carnal nature,

at least to a certain degree, and so I can teach you more. Yes. One thing that helps me understand the carnal too, is that it just means not having been spiritually reborn. And I mean, not just that there's more to it than that, of course. So that's something that helps you, but it helps you see that. I mean, carnal sometimes sounds really, really bad, which I mean, Edwene Strife divisions it is, but at the same time, it's, they haven't accepted Christ. They haven't fully accepted Christ. And that's where for ye are yet carnal. They still are. That's good. This is actually a really important thing. And this was in Elder Corbridge's talk. I mean, the primary questions he asked for, is there a God who's our father? Is Jesus Christ the son of God, the savior of the world? Was Joseph Smith a prophet? Is the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the kingdom of God on the

earth? So those are the primary ones. And then he brings up secondary ones that are unending. And some examples are church history, plural marriage, women, the priesthood, translation of the book, I mean, on and on and on. And then he says, if you answer the primary questions, the secondary questions get answered too, or they pale in significance. Answer the primary questions and you can deal with the things you understand and the things you don't, and with the things you agree with and the things you don't without jumping ship. It's the eyes on Jesus. You keep coming back to what is the most important thing. And these are the most important things. I mean, if Christ is the savior, if the church is the kingdom of God on earth, if Joseph Smith was a prophet, I mean, those are the things

that are really matters. And these other things are really fun, but you can go down a rabbit hole and get stuck looking for different things. And then by the time you come out, you don't even know what you started looking for sometimes. And you kind of forget the whole purpose of why you were looking in the first place. But to me, it really was reassuring to understand that

and to understand that I didn't need to know why there were different accounts of the first vision. I mean, it is kind of fun to know. Teresa, I love what you're saying here because you're not saying let's avoid those difficult questions. There's a process here. Let's get the foundation set, the milk, you might say, and then we can build on that. But it's impossible to build on something that you haven't set the foundation yet. You can't move to those secondary questions and have a positive experience until you have that foundation in place. Much like learning math, the meat of math would be a p-calculus. The milk of math would be addition, subtraction, division. And can you imagine starting with the meat? You'd never get anywhere. You have to start with the milk

knowing that eventually you want to get to the meat. We don't want to just say, well, we've got to have milk before meat, but never meat. We want to get to those places where everyone can understand. You can't be saved in ignorance. We have to get to a place where we understand. Yeah, I think it's a good metaphor because it reminds us of nutrition and how a baby

is started on milk. That's the way it works. It's not that, oh, meat's bad for babies. That's why I love just the Book of Mormon's emphasis on first principles. It's so fun just to go through and watch for faith in Christ and repentance repeated so often as first principles. Some of the deep, interesting doctrines are fascinating, but it all comes back to eyes on Jesus, faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. This is Elder Packer way back in 1984. You guys remember the 1900s?

He talks about this verse in a talk called Feed My Sheep. He said, be patient if some will not eat when first invited. So he's talking about sharing the gospel. So here we are trying to feed the sheep and the sheep aren't interested. Remember, all who are spiritually hungry will not accept the gospel. Do you remember how reluctant you are to try a new food? Only after your mother urges you will you take a little, tiny portion on the tip of a spoon to taste it to see if you like it first. Undernourished children must be carefully fed so it is spiritually underfed. Some are so weakened by sin that to begin with, they reject the rich food we offer. They must be fed carefully and gently. Some are so near spiritual death that they must be spoon-fed on the broth

of fellowship or nourished carefully on activities and programs. As the scriptures say, they must have milk before meat, but we must take care lest the only nourishment they receive thereafter is broth. We feed them, we must. We are commanded to preach the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. That message, my young friends, appears more than 80 times in scripture. So I like what he says here is begin with milk, but don't forget the meat. What did President Hinckley say? Every new member needs a friend.

That might be the milk, a job, again, the milk, and then to be nourished by the good word of God. So beginning into the meat portion. As I read the scripture, I thought that's what we're trying to do with our podcast. We're trying to help people find more meat of the gospel. Yeah, and it's wonderful, but it's also fun to see how often we are steered back to as elder corbridge would say those primary questions getting those answered first is is our priority getting a testimony of those and then the gospel so i like to say to my students we have to run across the top of the scriptures to get done in a semester but it's so fun to hear somebody like you nibbly lecture for an hour on one verse that they are as deep as they are wide.

There's so much there and it's fun to discover that. The gospel is interesting that way, isn't it? That it's simple enough that my little 10-year-olds can begin to understand, but it's deep enough that brilliant minds like Teresa Bell and Hugh Nibley can spend their whole life in it and still not grasp it. There's something cool about how the Lord has shaped his gospel. This reminds me of a super great talk by Elder Holland, A Teacher Come From God. I'm certain you two know this one because it really speaks to teachers of the gospel. But he talks about, if you receive not the Spirit, you shall not teach. And he says that is what our members really want when they gather in a meeting or come into a classroom. Most people

don't come to church looking merely for a few gospel facts or to see old friends, although we like that part. Though all of that is important. They come seeking a spiritual experience. They want peace. They want their faith fortified and their hope renewed. They want in short to be nourished by the good word of God and to be strengthened by the powers of heaven. Those of us who are called upon to speak or teach or lead have an obligation to help provide that as best we can. So he talks about teaching the youth also and new members.

And he says, are we really nourishing our youth and our new members in a way that will sustain them when the stresses of life appear? Or are we giving them a kind of theological Twinkie, spiritually empty calories? President John Taylor, what's called that teaching fried froth, anything you can eat all day and yet finish feeling totally dissatisfied. I love that so much. This whole talk was really a great message for teachers. To me, it goes along with the primary and spiritual questions too, is that you do provide the basis, but you need to make sure that you keep going, that it's not just the primary questions. It is, but when people are ready, that you move on from that. Because

otherwise what it turns into is just coming up with new ways of saying things or saying things that aren't necessarily founded in the gospel or in doctrine. And that kind of is like a spiritual, like a Twinkie, where you eat, you don't get anything out of it, although Twinkies really are kind of good. But we're at spiritually empty calories. And I think that's something that goes along with this too, is that we want to make sure that we are getting the primary questions and that we're keeping it with the gospel too, and that we're not just jumping to the meat or anything, but that we're keeping the eyes on Jesus while we're teaching and being taught. That's excellent, Teresa.

I think you're right on there. And I've always loved a teacher come from God. Man, I remember that. That talk brings back good memories of studying it for many times. Paul seems to return to this idea that they're fighting over who they follow, Paul or Apollos. And he says, look, I plant, Apollos might water. God is the one who's actually doing the work here. The missionary who plants the seed, he's not the one giving the miracle here.

The one doing the watering of the seed is not the one who's doing the miracle. It's God that giveth the increase. He says, we're on the same team. Doesn't it? Did you guys hear that in verse eight? We're all on the same team here. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one. Every man shall bring a reward according to their own labor. We're all laborers with God in this great work. He returns again to these divisions that they're having saying, look, we're all going towards the same goal here. John, I've had people come up to me in the store and they'd say something like, I loved that thought that John shared on the podcast, fill in the blank. And in my mind, I'm like, I shared that thought.

That was me that shared that thought. But I'm like, you know what? We're on the same team. We're all on the same team. We're all working towards the same goal. Or John, I'm sure you've had someone say to you something like, I love that talk that you gave and it wasn't your talk. Yeah. Oh, it happens. Well, actually that was something that so-and-so said. And isn't that great? Yeah. Isn't that great? Yeah. We're all on the same team here. What do you think, Teresa?

I think I love that so much. It happens all the time. Different context too. I think everybody at some point, maybe not the exact same context as you two, but it's true or something gets published and your name gets left off and you're like, are you kidding me? I'm the one who got the grant for that, you know, or something. But that's the thing is we're all on the same team here. We plant seeds, we water, but we're all going for the same thing. We're trying to unite people in Christ. And that's where you two, if Hank, someone says something that John said, and it was really you, you two are united together in your purpose for this. I think it was Harry Truman. I'm sure other people have said it too, besides Harry Truman,

but you can get a lot done, he said, as long as you don't care about who gets the credit. I'm just so happy to be here. I just love this every week. I like what Paul teaches there. And he seems to be doing his milk before meat. He's kind of displaying it in this letter. He started with their divisions, then kind of went away from it and said, let's talk about the spirit of God, and then comes back to these divisions. So he's giving them a little bit at a time, just as he said to do with others, right? Milk before meat. What's the rest of chapter three, Teresa?

That's where we start getting into the know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. If any man defile the temple of God, him this is something that's frequently taught in church, is know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. I think the basic important thing here is that we don't defile our bodies, and that we take care of our bodies as a temple, and that it has to be a place where the Spirit of God can live and dwell. And if it is not really a temple of God, and we don't treat it as such, we won't be able to have the Spirit with us. And I think that not only are our bodies temples, but he's also speaking of the whole church as a temple.

It's something I didn't know until I read this in preparation. Like look at verse 9. We are laborers together with God. Ye are God's husbandry. Ye are God's building. So in the little synopsis, the saints are the temple of God. And I think you can apply that both ways. Individually, we're the temple of God and we're careful how we treat each other because all of us together, the church is the temple of God. Am I right on that? Are you seeing

that? I am. I think you're right on. And I think that's something really important for us to consider is that we all are God's building, that we all are together in our individual wards and our families, but in the church as a whole. I think it's really important to keep that in mind. And that is something that I really hadn't considered before either, because we usually just think about it as like an individual thing, like our individual body as a temple. But rather, I think when you're right, that when we look at it in a bigger context, it means a lot more. I love that. I get to talk to teenagers almost as much as Hank does. And I love to say, look, don't get this wrong. This isn't those who wrote for the strength of youth, the guide for making choices against those who read it. This is all of us against Satan. We are all

the temple of God. We're on the same side. We're trying to get through this world and stay on the covenant path. And looking at us all as the temple of God, let's help each other is so much easier than what Satan's trying to do to get us adversarial and division, like these whole chapters are talking about. That we're all in this together, and we have a common adversary that we're all trying to overcome and keep our eyes on Jesus. It seems that Paul is saying something to the effect of, if you build up a building and it is destroyed by fire, if any man's, this is verse 15, if any man's work shall be burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself may be saved, according to Joseph Smith here, yet as by fire. So I think he's bridging to the idea of trials will save you.

Refiner's fire type of thing. You'll be refined. And then he's saying, it's not the building that matters so much as you. What happens inside of you? So you can do all this great work for God and it might all

be destroyed one day. But what matters is what's happened to inside of you. You could be saved as by fire. And he says, you are the temple of God. You're that's the, the building of God,

your God's sanctuary and the spirit of God dwells in you. So let's not defile that temple, that church, those people with these contentions. We want to be holy. At least that's what I, that's what I'm, I'm trying to see.

Sometimes reading Paul can be holy. At least that's what I'm trying to see. Sometimes reading Paul can be difficult. It really can. Can I share a statement from our friends Kelly Ogden and Andrew Skinner in their book called Verse by Verse Acts Through Revelation? They talked about our bodies are sacred. In a sense, they are temples of god we should protect our chastity as we protect our life but paul's teaching here has another meaning in a place where now think to ancient corinth in a place where several temples were dedicated to apollo aphrodite and others paul taught about the temple of the true god which is the church of jesus christ the temple of god spoken of in these verses is the body of believers in Christ. That is his church and the spirit of God dwelleth among

or within you, plural, all of you. If any man defiles the temple of God, meaning an apostate who distorts the doctrine or draws away disciples after him, he will be destroyed by God. So that helped me to see it in another way, not just individually on the temple of God, but all of us together. They're surrounded in Corinth with all sorts of temples to a pantheon of Greek gods, right? Interesting. That's great, adding that context, John. Verse 19 is that same thing again. Wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. There's this great moment in verse 18, right before that verse, John, where he says, let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in the world,

let him become a fool that he may be wise. It's an interesting phrase. I think what Paul might be saying here is if you are really wise in the things of the world, you're going to have to give that up so you can be really wise in God. You're going to become a fool. I think I can hear him saying, discard all that worldly pride so you can really become wise i think that hugh nibbley said once there was a video about him called faith of an observer and at the very end he says none of us is very wise none of us know very much this is hugh nibbley talking right yeah and he said but the things the angels envy us for is we can forgive and we can repent so i like to say and hank you know this if any of you lack information let him ask of google but if lack wisdom, that's an entirely different question.

So man's wisdom here or what Siri or Alexa or Google can tell you is one thing. But what can God tell you? Well, if you lack wisdom, you know where to go. That's James 1.5. I think that is great, John. It really makes you think, especially bringing up the context of Unibli. In the footnote for 18a, for the topical guide, it says boast or boasting. I mean, and this helps with looking at different translations too, but if any man among

you seem to be wise in this world and is boasting about it and is not able to have the spirit or to learn the things of God, I kind of think that falls into this too. You got to let that go. Henry Eyring Sr., if you've ever read his story. Great scientist. An incredible chemist. The best in the world should have won a Nobel Prize. He said this, he said,

our understanding, great as it sometimes seems, can be nothing but the wide-eyed wonder of a child when measured against omniscience. He knows that, yes, I might seem smart because I'm the world's best chemist, but I'm really just a child in wide-eyed wonder of God. It seems like those really, really smart people are the ones who know that they're not. Yeah. That there's so much more to know there's so much we don't know and when they acknowledge that with that humility i think comes that's real wisdom wisdom maybe wisdom is a twin with humility or something because for you nibbly for entering

to to say that you're like wow i i know i don't know as much as that guy and if he's saying that i've always laughed at isaiah 55 when the lord says for as the heavens are higher than the earth that, you're like, wow, I know I don't know as much as that guy. And if he's saying that. I've always laughed at Isaiah 55, when the Lord says, for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways than your ways. Or in other words, do you see the distance between you and the sun? That's kind of like my brain and your brain. It's a great verse. Teresa, Paul seems to finish going back to this same division that they're having. So stop saying those things about being a Paul or Apollos or Cephas be Christ. Verse 23, you are Christ and Christ is God's eyes on Jesus.

Yeah. It's taken him three chapters, but he seems to have slowly laid out why this, the vision that they're having is pretty foolish. Is that what you're seeing as well? Definitely. He does. He has to keep reminding them. You can tell that there's certain things that have been problems. It sounds like Paul wraps up that topic, and then he's going to move on to something else. Is that what you see from chapter 4, 5, and 6? It changes things quite a bit. Here he starts focusing on Christ's ministers must be faithful.

Apostles suffer minister and keep the faith in the kingdom of God is not in the word, but in power. So he's kind of building on what he's talked about before. In verses 3 and 4, but with me, it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you or of man's judgment. Yea, I judge not mine own self, for I know nothing by myself. Yet am I not hereby justified, but he that judges me is the Lord's. And this really is awesome to me because, I mean, he's been the best missionary, you know, who's ever lived the most, I don't know, faithful, the longest serving. And it's just to have him say, but with me,

it's a very small thing that I should be judged of you. And this is one of the problems I think that's very prevalent in the world right now is that we are so worried about how other people will perceive us. What other people think. I mean, I think about Instagram, letting other people judge, worried, like looking around to see what other people are going to think and worrying about that rather than knowing that only the Lord can judge. And so if we're doing what we need to be doing to stay close to him and to keep ourselves close to him and in line with his teachings, we really don't need to worry about that other stuff, even though it's difficult. So Paul is saying, I really don't care what other people think of me. That sounds like verse three. And wouldn't that be so great to get to that point? I wish that I could get to that point in my life. I know I'm doing the right thing.

You think whatever you want, but I know I'm doing the right thing. Yeah, that sounds like in verse four. For I know nothing, Joseph Smith adds, against myself. Does he say, my conscience is clear? Yes, that's exactly. The Lord knows me. The Lord examines me. Perfect example of that.

There's a great comfort in that too. I think you can find, well, gosh, Nephi says it. If these are not the words of Christ, judgy. Christ knows my heart and Nephi finds solace in that. I know that God knows that I'm trying because I keep in touch with him every day. You know, type of thing. And he knows where I'm at and he knows every weakness and problem I've got, but he knows I'm trying. There's a lot of comfort in that and we can kind of let go of what everybody else thinks.

What's the old saying that God and one other person is a majority? Yeah. I remember President Nelson saying prophets are rarely popular and they don't seem to mind. Do you ever hear a general conference talk and go, wow, that's a courageous topic that they just took on? And I think, wow, you go. I think it's awesome. It strengthens me to know they're willing to teach some of those tough things. Yeah.

And it's got to be because of that same attitude of Paul. It's a very small matter of that same attitude of Paul. It's a very small matter to me what other people think. I have a clear conscience, and I know the Lord knows me. What else does he teach in chapter 4 here, Teresa? I really like in verse 10, and this kind of is reminiscent of chapter 3, we are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ. We are weak, but ye are strong. Ye are honorable, but we are despised. And this does go right along with talking about not worrying what other people think and that prophets aren't popular kind of thing. It's just the way it's stated to me is so great. And if we keep in mind the context of, you know, that fools are not what

we usually think about them, but that we are willing to have the spirit, we're willing to humble ourselves for Christ's sake, then we're wise in Christ. Such an important message for us today as it was back then. But just to make sure that we do everything we can to stay close to Christ, no matter what is going on in the world or around us. Or what people think of you. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Teresa, but it's almost as if he's saying, in academia, if it's foolish to be spiritual, then I'm foolish. I'm fine. I feel wise. Yes.

You call me foolish, but I feel wise. So chapter four finishes with Paul saying, I hope to come unto you shortly. But that's definitely not the end of the letter. Oh, no, there's a lot more. Yeah. In chapter five, in the chapter heading, the church cannot fellowship sinners, which to me, I mean, that's kind of a lot to even take in to start with. But verse one, it is reported commonly that there is fornication among you and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles that one should have his father's wife. And I think some context is necessary to be able to understand

this. Something's going on specifically that he's hearing about. Yep. And I mean, when it's reported, when he says it's reported, that's when, yeah, you know, he's addressing something specific. That's one of the difficulties of Paul's letters is we don't have the letter that was sent, right? We're hearing one end of the conversation. So we have to kind of pick up on those things. I was reading in Ogden and Skinner's commentary and one of their opening paragraphs, and this is to the whole book of 1 Corinthians, but they said, I loved this sentence. 1 Corinthians is so good because the Corinthians were not. Said Paul had to rebuke their lack of unity, spirit of contention,

doubts about the resurrection, and that's going way up to 1 Corinthians 15. Abuse of spiritual gifts, that's like 12 and 13. Sophistication of Greek intellectuals, we've touched on that. And immorality in a variety of perversions. He says in verse 2, are you puffed up?

Like, are you proud of this? Are you proud of what's happened? He said, I'd rather you be mourning over this. This can't stand. As you said at the beginning, this is a regulatory letter. This shouldn't be happening in a branch of the church type of a thing. And then when he continues in verse three, for I verily as absent in body, but present in spirit have judged already as though I were present concerning him that hath so done this deed in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you're gathered together in my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And then, I mean, it goes on from that a little bit to deliver such in one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. It is written for our day. I mean, you think about how crazy things were going on. And then poor Paul is like away from them, but he still is present in spirit and he wants them to still remember what he taught them and the spirit he left with them, the teachings he left with them. And then he has to write this letter.

Then Paul seems to be saying, you've got to stop being so prideful because you're going to ruin everything. Your glorying pride, I take that to mean in verse six, is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, right? A little bit of pride can ruin everything. And that's kind of saying a lot. Yeah. I had some strong stuff. Teresa, what I'm seeing here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but chapter 5 seems to be, Paul, this is a contextual thing. This is something that's happened in Corinth. He's saying, this is not good. You've got to do something about this or it's going to get worse. It's true. With the purge out there for the old leaven, the footnote is Doctrine and Covenants 43.11, purge ye out the iniquity which is among you, sanctify yourselves before me.

And that's a little more direct without the leaven example, but the leaven is also a great example because you can't make the bread if there's no leaven. And even with the old where it'll ruin everything and it won't work. That example, I think, is really effective. And then the overall meaning from the explanation, I guess, from Doctrine and Covenants 43.11 is purge ye out the iniquity which is among you. The leaven's a really good example. This is a little more direct and more in our dispensation. And sanctify yourselves before me.

You've got to get rid of the sin. Basically, what he's saying, it's very powerful. It's not that sinners aren't welcome at church because we are all sinners, but you can't allow it to persist to continue to condone. And that's an important distinction because all of us, what is Elder Holland saying? The church is not a monastery for perfect people. It's more like a hospital for those who are ill and want to get well. We don't want to sound like this is like, throw out the sinners, right? Oh, definitely not.

And Paul does address that in verses 10 and 11. He's saying, I didn't tell you to get away from everyone who sins. You'd have to leave the world. You'd have to actually leave the earth to do that. Towards the end of chapter 5, Paul seems to be saying, look, I wrote you earlier a letter we don't have in verse 9. I wrote you an epistle to not company with fornicators. And that word company means to have contact with, associate with. And then he says in verse 10, I don't mean you can't have any contact with anyone who sins. He said in verse 10, or you would have to leave the world.

You would have to actually leave the planet to not have any association with any sinner. He's saying, and John and Teresa, do you see this in verse 11? But I have written unto you not to keep company if anyone is called a brother, meaning if they are part of the ward, part of the branch here, and they are off the rails sinning, you have to do something about that. John, wouldn't we call that today, like protecting?

The good name of the church. Yeah, the good name of the church. Is that what you're seeing here? Yeah. When Elder M. Russell Ballard wrote his book, Counseling with Our Councils, he talked about why do we have, they used to call them disciplinary councils and they're called membership councils now. And I love that change. And to save the soul of the sinner, to protect the innocent and to protect the good name of the church. If the church does nothing when this sort of thing is known, that's not good for the good name of the church. So I think Paul's carefully saying, we want sinners to come to Christ. Christ came to save sinners, but we're supposed to abandon sin

and try to get closer to Christ. We're not trying to abandon Christ and get more comfortable with sin. We're trying to abandon sin and get more comfortable with sin. We're trying to abandon sin and get more comfortable with Christ. I love what you said, what Paul said, too, that if we try to stay away from all sinners, we'd have to leave the world. But then that also leaves us with knowing that we also sin, that everybody sins. And so that's another thing to keep in mind, too. The cross-reference for verse 11a with the company, this is from Romans 16, 17, which to me, it makes this a little more clear. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have

learned and avoid them. And now this goes along also with loving the sinner, not the sin and that kind of thing. But I think about in the context of Corinth at that time, that spending time and keeping company with people who were doing really serious sins, and it would be in a situation where it would be easy for the saints to become involved in that type of sin. But I think that's kind of part of this too. We talk about this at church a lot too, about when people have done things to hurt you

or harm you or that they're sinning and you want to help them, but sometimes you do still have to take a step back and say, can I help them? Are they ready to be helped? I can't put myself in a bad place. And is it going to jeopardize my testimony, my spirituality by being with them? And I think sometimes this is a difficult topic today. Yeah. There's a fine balance there. There's a balance between I want to reach out. I want to help.

I want to bless. I don't want to put myself in a position where I could be influenced in a negative way. Yeah. John, what are you going to say? Let me add what Kelly Ogden and Andy Skinner have have said here who we've both of whom we've had on follow him they said here paul's saying we should not do what gross sinners do nor be influenced by them nor spend our time going to the places they frequent we should admonish sinners and love them but stay away from their evil ways paul also says i love, it is not his or the church's business to judge and regulate

the whole world, but rather to keep the church pure and leave the world to God. That seems to be verse 12. Yeah. Keep the church pure, leave the world to God. Interesting. And again, without context, without the context Teresa has given us here, we don't want to take this chapter out of context and start judging everybody in the ward saying, well, sinner, sinner, sinner. We need to see that this is something Paul wrote to the Corinthians. And we can use it, but we've got to make sure we understand that there's limits to applying scripture. Yeah, it's like Paul heard about something that was happening there and was writing pretty strongly,

this needs to be handled. Let's take a look at these last two chapters, Teresa, before we let you go. Well, there's actually kind of a lot in chapter six. It starts out talking about church members should not fight one another in the courts, which we could talk about a lot if we want to, and apply it to today or not. You know, that first thing about lawsuits, there is a great chapter. President Dallin H. Oaks wrote a book called The Lord's Way, and there's a chapter in there about, you know, when the saints have to get involved with the law

that's really helpful if somebody wants to do some extra reading. It's really helpful. Okay. I think we need to make sure we have context here and that Paul's not talking to us today. He's talking to these people then, but he seems very disappointed that they are doing this. He says, the fact that you have lawsuits among each other is bad enough. He says, it shows me that you're defeated already.

It's verse seven. Now, therefore, there is utterly a fault among you because you go to law one with another. Almost like, what is happening, you guys, over there? Teresa, what did you say? What's next? All right, Hank, why don't you read 15, start with verse 15 to get us talking about this. Okay. Sounds like Paul is kind of, oh my, like this never ending list of things he's

got to deal with, with these people. He says, know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? God forbid, like, no. What? Know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is in one body for two saith he shall be one flesh. So it sounds like some prostitution issues have been happening among the saints there. For he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body.

But he that committed fornication sinneth against his own body. What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? You were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. Sounds like Paul is laying down the law here, Teresa. I think so too. And we've talked about all of the sinning that was going on. And now we've gotten to this specific chapter about sexual impurity. You know, he's got to be frustrated with these people. I'm just sad, downright sad. Something that I've thought when I've been studying this is I wonder if he stops and thinks, maybe I didn't really teach them enough about this

to help them see. I didn't explicitly explain what this meant. And so now it's time to lay down the law. It's like, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not going to mince words. I'm going to just tell you directly what is going on and what you're supposed to be doing and not doing. That's kind of how I feel about this. And then at the end to sum it up with, you're bought with a price.

Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. And I mean, to me, what a powerful and beautiful way to finish that. He chastises them, he lays down the law, and he's like, this is what you need to remember. And if you could keep your eyes on Jesus and remember you were bought with a price, therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. I mean, that is just a beautiful way to me to sum it up and to leave the end of that topic on a really good note. Yeah. Just next to the city of Corinth, there was a high mountain they called the Acro-Corinth.

And on top of it was the Temple of Aphrodite. And Strabo, who was an ancient historian, he said there were a thousand temple prostitutes there. And Strabo's probably exaggerating, but this is again is one of those where you see the backdrop of Corinth and you can see why it would be hard to have a church there and to be surrounded with all of that and to not perhaps be affected by it.

But I just think there are mic drop moments in that, to use a modern term. Ye are not your own. You're bought with a price. And boy, Jesus is our Redeemer. He bought us back. I thought I could do anything I want with my own body because it's mine. But this is Paul saying, well, actually, as someone who's made a covenant with Christ,

you're not your own. You've been bought with a price. And your body and your spirit are God's. Wow. God's, apostrophe S, they belong to him, which is super powerful mic drop stuff. In Elder Holland's book, Marday Star Rising, which has already been, I think, Camille Frank Olson introduced it really well, which I need to say, she was one of my seminary teachers in high school.

Moving on from that, I've always wanted to say that on this podcast. I love her. I have so much love for her and she has seriously inspired a lot of my study of the gospel, like continued study of the gospel. She is an amazing woman. I know you guys know that, but so I learned about this from her on your podcast, this book, but Elder Holland has done a lot of teaching about the New Testament, explaining things. And for 1 Corinthians 6, he just says some really powerful things. He says there are things on which we have to take a firm stand, which kind of goes along with the end of that chapter 6, verse 20. We know that some people are addicted to gambling, for instance. We have to say basically that this is destructive behavior.

And if you go down that road very far, there's often tragedy and dismay and disarray and divorce and all kinds of problems at the end. And we have to help with that. We are against domestic abuse. I'm not making necessarily analogies here. I'm just saying that there are a lot of things we have to say. The gospel is here to remedy. The gospel is here to bless and help.

If someone is suffering with this, we want to work with them. We want to help. But we can't say, oh, it's okay. We just have to let that go. Because some things you can't let go. One, because they're commandments. Two, because they're commandments that are designed to lead to happiness. You may confront difficult issues, but stay close to your leaders. Keep your faith. I can promise you that happiness is in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not out of it. However hard it may seem to be in the church,

it is a lot harder to be out of it in terms of any chance for happiness. By hard, I mean something that you may have a struggle with. Whatever the challenge, it's going to be better if we can stay in and talk and work. This is not our church. I love what Paul said to the Corinthians, and it's 620, ye are bought with a price. We are indentured servants, if you will. We owe everything to the Savior who bought our salvation. And so it is not as if we can be whimsical and flit about and do exactly what we want. I don't know any of us who can do that. We have been purchased. Death and hell and the adversary and dark eternity was one option, and that got paid for. We are indebted to the great living son of God who

paid that price and we owe him our allegiance. And I think to me, this is just one of the most beautiful modern ways of explaining this. And it's something that we can see exactly. And it does, it gets into the love the sinner, not the sin, but we can try and step in. We need to try and step in and help people. And we can't just say, oh, they're addicted to whatever. We just have to let it go. It's just who they are. They're doing their own thing or whatever. But that's not how the gospel works.

Excellent. I'm sure both of you will remember two talks given by Elder Holland, both very similar. One at BYU called Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments. The other one at General Conference called Personal Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments. The other one at General Conference called Personal Purity. Very similar talks. Here's what Elder Holland says. There's a lot to cover here, and I would encourage anyone to go and listen to both of these and listen to them. Elder Holland is one you have to listen to. You can't just read. He talks about the body being an essential part of our soul. He said,

this Latter-day Saint doctrine underscores why sexual sin is so serious. We declare that one who uses the God-given body of another without divine sanction abuses the very soul of that individual. In exploiting the body of another, which means exploiting his or her soul, one desecrates the atonement of Christ, which saved that soul and which makes possible the gift of eternal life. And when one mocks the sun of righteousness, one steps into a realm of heat hotter and holier than the noonday sun. You cannot do so and not be burned. Please never say, who does it hurt? Why not a little freedom? I can transgress now and repent later. Please don't be so foolish and so cruel. You cannot with impunity crucify Christ afresh, meaning crucify

him again. Flee fornication, Paul cries, and flee like anything like unto it, the Doctrine and Covenant adds. Why? Well, for one reason, because of the incalculable suffering in both body and spirit endured by the Savior of the world so that we could flee. We owe him something for that. Indeed, we owe him everything for that. You are not your own, Paul says. You have been bought with a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's. It's just a powerful doctrine that Elder Holland teaches about the body being part of the soul. He finishes this way, and Teresa, you were heading this direction. If some of you are carrying these wounds from these sins,

he calls them scars that spiritually disfigure. He says, if some of you are carrying these wounds, and I know that you are, to you is extended the peace and renewal of repentance available through the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. In such serious matters, the path of repentance is not easily begun nor painlessly traveled, but the Savior of the world will walk that essential journey with you. I think our listeners would be interested, Teresa, in your journey as both an academic, a scholar, and a faithful Latter-day Saint. What's that been like for you? My life has, I've been really blessed. My parents are very active in the church, have taught me many things from a young age. I'm the oldest of eight children.

We just have always had a very spiritual gospel-centered home. Went to BYU after I graduated from high school, went on a mission. Well, I spent a summer in Switzerland first. That was the first time my faith was shaken a little bit. I lived with a non-member family who was not very interested in having me go to church every Sunday, you know, two hours to get there and back. It was during that time that I really had a spiritual experience that helped me understand that Heavenly Father knew me. He knew me personally. He knew what I was going through, and He knew that I would be able to go through whatever

it would be and come out really great on the other knew that I would be able to go through whatever it would be and come out really great on the other side. I just kept going to school. I was 33 when I got married. And John, I don't remember how old you were, but 33 is kind of old in the Mormon culture. I was 33 too. Hey, perfect. See, that's the perfect age. When I met my husband, I had about a year left in my doctoral program. He's younger than I am by a lot. We just fell in love and it was the right thing to do. Through all that, I had many spiritual experiences to help me know that. After I finished my doctorate and have gone out into academia, the University of Pittsburgh,

University of Oklahoma, before ending up at BYU, it's really easy to not be part of the church and to just step away when you're in academia. There are so many things that we study that are not necessarily, I'm not going to say not aligned with the gospel, but there's not ever a gospel context looking at it. For me, that's been the most important thing I can do. And I found that through daily scripture study, daily prayer, going to church, I mean, all the things that we know that we're supposed to be doing, it has kept me on the path and it's kept me wanting to be on the path, going to the temple. I really appreciate the new curriculum we have in Come Follow Me. I remember when it was introduced and just sitting there listening to Elder Cook thinking, this is the answer. The church puts so much effort into curriculum design and I have a strong background in that.

And every one of the questions they have, the context they give, the way things are explained, the links to things, they are all from an educational standpoint, a learning standpoint, they are sound. It is all sound. And it is amazing to me. And I just tell people when they're like, oh, I've got to teach gospel doctrine. I'm so nervous or whatever. And it's like, use the manual. Just use the manual. Like everything in there is really good. You don't have to make up anything else. People will talk.

I mean, this is just what you need to do. But this is a great time for me personally, for my family and for the church, I think. But it's all of these things together, staying close to the spirit. I mean, the most important thing to me, I think, is knowing that Heavenly Father knows me personally, individually. And if there's something wrong in my life, something that's not working right, the most important thing to me, I think, is knowing that Heavenly Father knows me personally, individually. And if there's something wrong in my life, something that's not working right, the Savior, because of the atonement, takes care of it for me. It's the most amazing thing to know that. And the older I get, the more I learn.

A lot of my research is the gospel supports because it's language learning and culture learning. So that's something that's really helpful. And most of my colleagues are very understanding and supportive of the church because of how much the church supports language learning. And they focused so much on learning about other cultures so that you can understand other people. For me, just keeping the spirit with me and helping me continue to study the gospel is what has been the most important thing in my life and continues to be. And I'm really thankful for that. I know that Heavenly Father lives and loves us. I know that Jesus is our Savior, and I know that He suffered for our sins and that we can overcome everything through Him. I also know as we study the gospel, especially this year with the New

Testament and Corinthians and learning about different cultures, different people, and how to stay in the church and still be able to help people is something that's really important for all of us. And just one last quote, chapter seven of Preach My Gospel says, one of the greatest things we can do to gain people's trust and love is to embrace their culture and by extension, their language. And you know, if it's in Preach My Gospel, it's something that's really important because this is teaching for all of the missionaries out there. And by extension, we are all missionaries. And this is something to know. And it doesn't just say to learn about it a little bit. To gain people's trust and love is to embrace their culture. It doesn't mean you have to become part of it, but you need to know it enough, understand it enough,

understand why they believe the way they believe and what they believe. That's the way that we get people's trust. That's one of the things I think to me, looking at Paul, he doesn't come out and say something like that, but he wants us to be able to teach people and we have to love and understand them first. That's to me the biggest message from 1 Corinthians. You're right on there, Teresa.

Paul never comes out and says it, but you can tell he did that. He's not from Corinth. He's not from Greece. He understands them and their culture. I think that's why he's successful with them. I think we'll let Paul have the last word here. He says, I have not seen, John read this earlier, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. We can tell Teresa that you love him. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks for having me. I have been looking forward to this for so long. We say the same thing back to you. Follow him as our big fans of Dr. Teresa Bell.

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