followHIM - D&C 37-40 Part 1 • Dr. Christopher Jones • April 21-27 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: April 16, 2025

What is the impact of historical research on our faith? Dr. Christopher Jones examines Brother James Covel's life and choices and how his life inspires belief in grace and a message of hope.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC217ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC217FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC217DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC217PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC217ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/ty4CrredNj0ALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 - Part 1 - Dr. Christopher Jones01:45 Dr. Jones previews this episode03:10 Dr. Jones’s bio05:01 Becoming a Historian10:06 Four missionaries and an important conversion16:10 Three branches transplanted to Ohio18:43 D&C 38:32 The Lord alleviates fear21:15 Insights from the Apostles22:07 James Covill/Covel26:17 Changing our opinion of James Covel27:18 Backgrounds of D&C 37 and D&C 38 28:18 D&C 37:1-4 - Gather to the Ohio29:45 D&C 38:1-3, 32 God reassures and promises an endowment35:25 A conference at Fayette37:21 What we had wrong about James Covel46:35 What is Antebellum? And more Covel discoveries51:45 Why Methodist vs. Baptist matters for James Covel53:23 D&C 38:26 - A parable and baptism debates57:19 Methodism experiences changes1:00:37 Final words to James Covel1:04:51 Comfort for those that have left the fold1:06:56 The end of James Covel’s earthly story1:09:04 Application of James Covel’s story01:12:23  - End of Part I - Dr. Christopher JonesThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika: Portuguese TranscriptsHeather Barlow: Communications Director"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Coming up in this episode on Follow Him. Jared Sussman This was a really exciting moment for me. I'm a young graduate student, fairly recently married, and something that I've published has now helped lead to some changes, some updates in the scriptures. I got to tell you, the two Methodist archivists that I worked with, they think this is the coolest thing ever. They're like, wait, research you did here at the archives ended up in changes to Latter-day Saints scripture. They did a whole news release about it. It was very exciting. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my co-host John, by the way. Now, John, listen to this. You are a co-host so great

as we, the listeners, the people who follow Him, have never known." That is perfect for you, John. I think you're perfectly describing the Church History Matters podcast. Good job. Yes, that is a good podcast. That's section 40, verse 10. The Lord promises a blessing so great as you have never known. That's beautiful. John, we're joined today by Dr. Christopher

Jones out of the history department at BYU. Welcome, Dr. Jones. Thank you. Glad to be here with you, Hank and John. This is exciting. Dr. Jones comes highly recommended. We are looking at sections 37, 38, 39, and 40. we are going to make a major move, or at least the Lord is going to tell us to make a major move. What do you think of when you think end of New York period, going into Ohio? You called it a major move. I think of how many people in our time have had to pack up and move. And what a joyous, fun experience that is. Yeah.

And how often these folks were asked to move. Amongst the other trials, moving, not being able to put down roots has gotta be tough for them. And I'm sure Dr. Jones can tell us a little bit more about moving in their day versus moving in our day. When we think of moving, we think, oh, it's gonna be a rough couple our day. When we think of moving, we think, oh, it's gonna be a rough couple of weeks.

When they think of moving, I can't imagine they go down to the U-Haul and grab a rental. Christopher, as you've been looking at these sections, what are you looking forward to? Yeah, there's quite a bit that I'm looking forward to. I guess maybe first and foremost, I'm excited about these sections because in spite of it being a major move here from New York to Ohio, I think that these four sections are ones that we as readers often might just pass over relatively quickly. Yeah, there's

that nice little historical background there. They're making the move here. The Lord's commanding them to do that, but these are ones that otherwise we read over and then we move on to the more exciting things. I think when we delve more deeply into the historical background of these sections, when we try and learn more about the people than the places and the events mentioned therein, these scriptures can come to life for us as readers. That's fantastic because these aren't the sections where you'd ask someone, hey, what's your favorite section of the Doctrinerine Covenants? Rarely would you hear someone give 37 through 40. Except me, sections 39 and 40, my two favorite.

They are. Okay. I love it. John, how many times have we walked away going, okay, now that one's my favorite because of what a guest has shown us. Seeing something in a new light. You're right. I frequently tell my students, these are in black and white. John, Dr. Jones has not been with us before, but like I said, he comes highly recommended. You have some info. Have you done a background check?

Do we know anything about this guy? Yes. Christopher Cannon Jones. I love that middle name. My stake president who set me apart to go on a mission was a cannon. My son, my 12 year old son, whose middle name is also cannon. Last year we were able to attend a BYU game. A member of the ROTC at BYU was in one of my classes and so he invited my son to come down on the field at halftime and as they kicked off to start the second half, my son got a fire George Q. And that was- Wow. That's awesome.

He got a little t-shirt that said, I fired George Q. Cannon. It was awesome. So, yeah, it was delightful. Oh, that's great. Christopher Cannon Jones, assistant professor of history at Brigham Young University. He teaches courses in early American history, American religious history and the history of slavery and the slave trade, and family history. He is the co-editor of the book, Missionary Interest Protestant and Mormon Missions in the 19th and 20th centuries, co-author with David Golding, and that's Cornell University Press. How interesting is that?

He currently serves as the editor of the Journal of Mormon History, lives in South Jordan with his wife, Karam, and their four active children, one of whom has fired a cannon at a football game. Christopher, we're so glad that you're here, and thanks for taking time for us. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed listening to several of the episodes that you all have done this year with different guests and scholars. And honestly, I'm honored to be here. And again, I really hope that we can geek out a little bit today about these sections

and delve in pretty deeply here to understand who these people are and what the Lord is trying to tell them and to tell us. I love it. John, we've talked about this before. I've grown to love history. Started when I was in high school, you know, in another life I could have been someone who just made that a career. As I continued to grow and understand history and still am trying to understand it as a

science, I realized how difficult it is. Yeah. And I think how valuable a historian is who follows those rules of scholarship and history of original sources and things, and then you can find out what really happened. It's kind of like going back to football games. Let's go to the booth and review that and see what really happened. Right. Christopher, I think in our day and age, and you can comment on this, every church member has to become kind of a little mini-historian. We're coming to the point where someone says, have you read this from history? Have you read this from history? Did you know this

from history? And all of a sudden we're going, oh, I didn't know that. So before we even get started here, do you have any recommendations or do you have anything that you would say to someone who's going, I don't know how to look at history? This is all overwhelming. Yeah, I think that's not uncommon. And I think that's kind of a fair response. I've spent the last 20 years of my life training to be a historian and doing history. So it's not something I think somebody can learn to do overnight. But I think that there are so many tremendous resources out there that individuals, including members of the church as they study the Doctrine and Covenants this year, can take advantage of to help deepen their understanding of the history behind these revelations. I am a big fan of Stephen Harper's book, Making Sense of the Doctrine and Covenants.

I know that you've had Dr. Harper on as a guest in the past. I think about the incredible work that the Joseph Smith Papers Project team has done over the last 20 years in making these high-res images of all of these documents freely available. But also if you go on the Joseph Smith Papers Project website, there is lesson plans and there is historical notes and there is biographical summaries of everybody mentioned and every place mentioned. And it can really allow you to dig deep to understand the history behind this. The Doctrine and Covenants is unique because unlike the other books of scripture we have,

it doesn't tell a story. There's no, and then Jesus went in this and then the apostles went into this. It's not a narrative history like we encountered last year in the Book of Mormon, rather we have this set of discrete revelations, set of independent revelations that are received, and they're not even then put together in chronological order always, and so we're kind of going historically back and forth in this way and that way. But when you dig down into the history behind these revelations, you can begin understanding that historical narrative behind them. And that allows you to see the way that the Lord worked with these early saints in building the church. Every historian, John, that we've talked to has said something like, my fear is not that you'll know too much church

history. My fear is that you'll know too little. I've seen that as we've learned. Yeah, me too. We don't have to be afraid of anything. Go find out what happened. Find out as much as you can. I think Hank, when you said history, like the word we heard in high school, oh no, it's history. As we are learning, it's stories, it's real people, and it just in color comes to life. Isn't everything history when you look at it that way? The historians we've had on this year, John, have said often that they like to give people grace. As they look back, they try not to judge them harshly because they're not here to defend themselves, right?

They're not here to say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't understand. I'm excited for today. Let me read from the Come Follow Me manual. We'll get started. To the early saints, the church was more than a place to hear some preaching on Sunday. The revelations used words like cause, kingdom, Zion, and quite often, work. That may have been part of what attracted people to the restored church.

As much as they loved the doctrine, many also wanted something holy they could dedicate their lives to. Even so, obeying the Lord's 1830 commandment to gather in Ohio was not easy. For many, it meant leaving comfortable homes for an unfamiliar frontier. Today, we can see clearly what those saints could see only with the eye of faith. The Lord had great blessings waiting for them in Ohio. The need to gather to Ohio has long since passed, but saints today still unite around the same cause, to bring forth Zion. Like those early saints, we are invited to forsake the cares of the world

and trust the Lord's promise. You shall receive a blessing so great as you never have known. Wow. Dr. Jones, Christopher, where do you want to start? Can we just position ourselves here historically where these saints are in December of 1830? Some of what I might share here might be a little bit of a rehash from previous discussions, Jay, but I think it's crucial background for getting into these revelations. We're here in December of 1830 at a moment that proves to be really quite pivotal in the early history of the church, which again had just been organized eight months earlier. We are just barely into this thing. In November,

just a month earlier, God had called Parley Pratt, Peter Whitmer Jr., Ziba Peterson, and Oliver Cowdery on the first mission, and they are called to go to the borders of the Lamanites and preach the gospel to Native Americans. This refers to the land just west of the furthermost border of the United States at the time, just west of Missouri. Christopher, I hate to interrupt you, but what kind of trip is that in 1830? I mean, even from New York to Missouri today, you're going, okay, that's a long trip. What is it in 1830? Not a pleasant one. Those missionaries are taking advantage of the newly completed Erie Canal that had just

been completed five years earlier. So that is at least with the first part of their journey, simplifying things a little bit for them there. They're hopping on a small boat and going down the canal and that takes them to Ohio. And then from there, they're traveling either by river or over land, probably walking most of that time. And again, they set out on this mission almost immediately and this is in the winter, right? And I don't know if you've spent any winters in upstate New York or northeastern Ohio or even Missouri. Those are not pleasant places to be in terms of cold and snow and

the like. This is a pretty burdensome journey to say the least. As I think most listeners will know, they make a stop off in Northeastern Ohio along the way, and they stop off there to visit Parley P. Pratt's old buddy, Sidney Rigdon, who is a Baptist preacher, an independent Baptist preacher, an experienced preacher, a pretty smart guy. He's leading a congregation of a little more than a hundred there. And they stop off just to say hi, maybe stay the night, enjoy some food with them, and

to share the message of the restored gospel with them. Sidney Rigdon and his congregation are struck by the message. Many feel the need to learn more and ultimately choose to join the church. And those conversions, those mass conversions in Northeastern Ohio have immediate implications for the church. Number one, it more than doubles the total population of the church at this time. So, this is now all of the sudden, oh, we were in New York and maybe kind of Pennsylvania church, and now we're very much an Ohio church in terms of looking at where the members are located, but also this figure of Sidney Rigdon is a pretty important person. Historian Richard Bushman called him the most

auspicious convert to date. Wow. Joseph Smith is immediately impressed by Rigdon. He is, in the words of David Whitmer, a first-rate Bible scholar, an experienced preacher has all sorts of experience. He's been involved not only with mainstream and independent Baptist churches, but also with the churches of Christ. This is the Stone Campbellite movement who fit into a broader group that historians refer to as restorationists.

These are individuals that are reading the New Testament and looking to that as a model for the restoration of Christ's church. These are people that we look back on and we see them as being prepared by the Lord to accept the gospel when it arrives on their doorstep in the winter of 1830. If you're Joseph Smith, you got to think, wow, like really? Yeah, absolutely. It's working. And then on top of that, Joseph Smith's right-hand

man, scribe during the Book of Mormon translation process, and more recently, scribe on Joseph's sort of nascent Bible translation process, has just been called on this mission. That's Oliver Cowdery's been sent out on this mission. Joseph is in need of somebody to help him with that work. Who better than this Bible scholar that has just been baptized. So immediately, when Sidney Rigdon comes to New York to meet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith embraces him and immediately welcomes him into the church, but also into his inner circle and asks him to help in this Bible translation process. This is the Joseph Smith translation or the inspired version of the Bible that Joseph Smith has just begun undertaking previously. That's the history that sets the stage for the revelations that

we're here to discuss today in sections 37 through 40. In section 37, this is a revelation received right before the end of the calendar year, right before the end of 1830. It's December 30th, 1830, Joseph Smith receives a new revelation in which he and Sidney Rigdon learn that it is not expedient that ye should translate any more until ye shall go to the Ohio. Moreover, not only Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are commanded to go, indeed the Lord has commanded them to also visit the other branches around New York State and to tell those people that the Lord has now commanded them to assemble together at the Ohio. There in Ohio, they are to meet Oliver Cowdery as he returns from

his mission with the other three missionaries from Missouri. And there the Lord indicates that Oliver will tell them the location of the new Jerusalem. If you're thinking about the biggest way to wrap up the first calendar year of the church's existence, it's hard for me to imagine something much bigger than this, okay? A, everybody's going to pack up and move, you're going to go to The Ohio, and I love that they call it The Ohio throughout here, and Oliver Cowdery is going to meet you there, you're going to meet all of these new members of the church in Ohio. And then I'm going to tell you more

about the promised New Jerusalem, where you all are going to move and help build this city and build this community in anticipation of Christ's second coming. This is the biggest way possible to wrap up the year 1830. It's like the end of a season on a Netflix show. Like, wow, stay tuned. Hank, I would like you to talk about those three branches and families of the church that all of a sudden all go to Ohio. Yeah, it's interesting because you can place a family

in a town. So you basically have three branches of the church. You have the Smiths in Palmyra and Manchester. You have the Whitmers in Fayette. Today it's about an hour from Palmyra, an hour east. If you're driving, if you go another two to an half hours, you're gonna get to Colesville, which is where the Knight family is. These are basically the three branches of the church and they're pretty far apart. I know to us we're thinking, oh they're in the same state. Like we just said, traveling. We think, oh man, two and a half hours in a bus?

That's a long time. This is days. And then to have those three families, all right, let's move. Christopher, I love how you said, this is huge. You and I think, oh, it's not Nauvoo to Salt Lake. Wait till they get there. They have no idea that's coming. They have no idea of anything that's coming. They just know the Lord has now commanded them to pack up and move to Ohio. Us looking back from 2025,

we say there are so many exciting things awaiting you in Ohio. We're gonna build the first temple of this dispensation. The Lord and angelic beings are going to appear to people in that temple. We are going to send out additional missionaries throughout the world from Ohio and hundreds and hundreds of additional converts will join the church here. What an exciting thing. They must have been so excited. They knew none of that. They knew none of that. All they know is they're being instructed here, commanded to pack up all of their belongings and leave for many of them the only home that they have ever known. This is a

little bit more than just hopping on the bus and going down the road. And there's not really the chance here once you've moved from New York to Ohio, to go back and make annual visits to your family there. That's a lot bigger of a deal in 1830 or 1831 than it is in 2025. This could be goodbye for the rest of our lives. Yeah, absolutely. Goodbye to my neighbors, goodbye to my cousins

and aunts and uncles. I think of a listener at home saying, I don't know if I can do this difficult thing that I've been asked to do, whether it be a calling or maybe going off and serving a mission. You almost sound like an angel from years in the future saying, oh, there are great things coming. How are you not more excited? There are amazing things coming. But right now I don't see that. And in section 38, the very next revelation, I think the Lord aware that there's going

to be some anxieties, there's going to be some fears, there's going to be some hesitancies, immediately starts promising pretty magnificent blessings here. He tells the saints, go to the Ohio and there I will give unto you my law. And there you shall be endowed with power from on high. And from thence, whosoever I will shall go forth among all nations and it shall be told them what they shall do for I have a great work laid up in store." That's verse 32 in section 38. The Lord, I think, is very aware that people are approaching this with some hesitancy and some reservations and he's seeking to quell those fears. Now, again, I will give unto you my law. What does that mean? You will be endowed with power from on high

and then we're gonna send people out to preach the gospel and great blessings are in store. And that might sound exciting, but again, they don't know specifically what that means. They don't know a temple's being built in Ohio yet. They don't know fully what endowed with power from on high means. These sound like cool blessings, but again, there's still some hesitancy. yet. They don't know fully what endowed with power from on high means. These sound like cool blessings, but again, there's still some hesitancy. And this is such a big thing to ask of someone. Back in April of 2021, President Henry B. Eyring talked about when he was sealed in

the Logan temple and it was President Spencer W. Kimball who performed the sealing. He said to President Eyring and his wife, Hal and Kathy, live so that when the call comes you can walk away easily. I think that's hard counsel back then, I think it's hard counsel today. He said a call came from the Church Commissioner of Education, Neil A. Maxwell. The warning given by President Kimball to be able to walk away easily became a reality. It was a call to leave what seemed an idyllic family situation to serve in an assignment in a place that I knew nothing about. Our family was ready to leave that blessed time and place because a prophet in a holy temple, a place of revelation, saw a future event for which we then were prepared." Man, that's easier said than done, isn't it? Again, President

Kimball had said, live so that when the call comes, you can walk away easily. Maybe easily in some ways, but I just think this is what they're being asked to do. That's hard. It'd be hard for us. but I just think this is what they're being asked to do. That's hard. It'd be hard for us. You have that competing idea of just bloom where you're planted, put down roots, but be ready to go so that you can walk away easily. That's tough. Oh, that is tough. John, you quoting President Eyring there reminded me of something. I got an email from my friend Brad Boyce who works for the church. Brad pointed me to something I had not seen before. If you go into your Gospel Library app and you tap on come follow me in your Gospel Library, it brings up the manuals as usual. But there's this new section called

Insights from the Apostles where once a month the Apostles are teaching a little bit from the sections we're looking at. This month there is a video called Ye Are Called to Bring to Pass the Gathering with Elder and Sister Gong. I hope everyone will go check these out. You've got a video from Elder Ciarán, Elder Uchtdorf, Elder Bednar, Elder Renlund, Elder Anderson so far. So, these are called insights from the apostles and they're about some specific sections. Back to you, Christopher. Yeah. So section 38 is received in January of 1831. So this is the first revelation received in the new calendar year here. It is received at a conference, at a quarterly conference that the church has organized in Fayette at that time.

So it's held from January 2nd to the 5th. And there is two additional revelations received that we now have as sections 39 and 40 that are also received at that conference. Those revelations, unlike section 38, are not directed to the church as a whole, but they are directed to or specifically talk about one man in particular, and that is a man who for 150 years remained a mystery to historians. It's a man named James Covel. If you are reading your scriptures in a pre-2013 edition, your copy of the scriptures paper scriptures there, his name is going to be spelled C-O-V-I-L-L. The historical headnote will identify him as a Baptist minister. If you're looking at the

scriptures on your iPad or phone or in a set of hard scriptures, paper scriptures published since 2013, his name will be spelled C-O-V-E-L and he will be identified as a Methodist preacher as opposed to a Baptist one. So we found him. We finally found him. Credit here goes to the Joseph Smith papers. I'll tell more about that story in just a minute if you would like. It's kind of a cool thing.

And I want to dig deeper into that history. But maybe for now, I want to simply note that James Covel was a Methodist preacher who was attracted to the message that he encountered at this conference in Fayette and who expressed his desire to be baptized there. So, section 39 is God's message to James Covel in which he calls him on a mission and promises really pretty incredible blessings. And then it's followed the next day by section 40 in which we learn that Covel ultimately decided against joining the church and returned to his former principals and people.

Now there's a couple of reasons that I'm really excited to discuss these sections. Number one, James Covel is my favorite figure mentioned in the Doctrine of Covenants. I absolutely adore this man, and I'm excited to tell you more about him today. I say that with the hope that it actually surprises some readers, because what we learn about him in those revelations is that after initially receiving the word with gladness, he was straightway tempted by Satan, that he succumbed to the fear of persecution and the cares of the world, and that as a result, he broke my covenant. None of those things perhaps seem worthy of Professor Jones's adoration here. So, I'm excited to explain why I admire

Dr. James Covel. He's a medical doctor in addition to a preacher. And then I want to suggest specifically why I think his story, including section 40 and what we encounter therein, should actually be a message of hope and a message of grace for Latter-day Saints today. It shows, I think, more than anything else that God's hand is continually outstretched. That even when we make mistakes, even when we go so far as to break our covenants, that God doesn't give up on us.

That He is still there, still wants to meet us where we are, and still wants to make the best of what may be a bad situation. That's the number one thing I'm really excited to talk about today. Second, in order to accomplish that, in order to see that, we have to delve deeply into the history of both James Covel of the early church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what was then called the Church of Christ, and into the early history of religion in America, into the religious rivalry that divided Baptists and Methodists, and the way that that shaped the United States at the moment when the church burst onto the scene. These revelations then present to us a really fascinating case study that ultimately shows

really fascinating case study that ultimately shows how understanding the historical context, how consulting some of those resources that we talked about earlier can illuminate these revelations and bring meaning to them that we might otherwise miss. Yeah. That you miss. Just knowing a little bit of the background. And John, isn't this why we bring people like Dr. Jones on the show? I mean, it just gets you excited to almost flip the stage around and see what's backstage. I'm really glad you're talking about this because I have used section 40 in particular to talk about the weeds that Jesus identifies in the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 and kind of like, hey, here's an example of how you can get weeded out.

I think maybe you're going to change my heart about this. So I'm looking forward to what you're going to teach us. If I can change somebody's heart about James Koval, today will have been a success for me. Awesome. Before we dive too deep into sections 39 and 40, would it be okay if we went back to sections 37 and 38? We quoted a couple of passages from them. I just don't want to overlook these revelations. I think they're really important, both for understanding what we encounter in the revelations to James Covel in 39 and 40, but also just on their own. As a historian, I often get really excited by context and then I forget about the text. I want to make sure that we're not overlooking

the text of the revelations themselves here. You got it. Christopher, if I get this right, you said section 37 is December 30th. Yes. And I think section 40 is somewhere in like the first week of January. So it is. This is a week. This is a wild week. Yeah. Rapid series of revelations here. I hope I've already provided a pretty decent background to section 37 in terms of the history there. And it's just a pretty short revelation. It comes to us today in just four verses. Could we read that in its entirety? Okay, here we go. Section 37. Behold, I say unto you that it is not expedient in me that you should translate any more until you shall go to the Ohio, and this because of the enemy and for your sakes. And again I say unto you that ye shall not go until ye have preached my gospel in those

parts and have strengthened up the church whithersoever it is found, and more especially in Colesville. For behold, they pray unto me in much faith." Verses 3 and 4. And again, a commandment I give unto the church, that it is expedient in me that they should assemble together at the Ohio. And they were together there in anticipation of my servant Oliver's return. Again, this is Oliver Cowdery's return from his mission to the Lamanites. In that same section, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are also commanded to preach the gospel and strengthen the church, whithersoever it is found, and more especially in Colesville. Thanks to Hank earlier, we know

that there's these three existing branches of the church spread out across upstate New York. spread out across upstate New York. So before leaving for The Ohio, the pair does exactly that. After visiting Colesville and the other branches of the church in New York, they hold the first quarterly conference of the New Year on January 2nd, beginning on January 2nd, 1831 in Fayette. There Joseph Smith shares with the saints, with the assembled saints, the revelation commanding them to all collectively gather to the Ohio. There also he receives the second revelation that we're reading today, that is section 38.

And the Lord begins by reassuring the saints, mine eyes are upon you, I am in your midst, even though ye cannot see me. But soon ye shall see me, and know that I am. For the veil of darkness shall soon be rent, and he that is not purified shall not abide the day. Wherefore, gird up your loins and be prepared. Behold the kingdom is yours, and the enemy shall not overcome." All right, now we might read this as a promise of Christ's second coming happening soon. That is probably how those saints that heard it interpret it. We might also think of it as a reference to some of those promised blessings and things that occur in Ohio once the

saints arrive there. Thinking again about the construction and dedication of the Kirtland Temple and the appearance of the Lord, as well as several angelic beings and past prophets, as well as the appearance of many other angelic beings to the assembled hundreds at the dedication of that temple in early 1836. But it isn't all excitement here. There's some scary stuff, at least some scary sounding stuff in this revelation too. The Lord notes that not all are clean before him, that all flesh is corrupted before me. And the powers of darkness prevail upon the earth among the children of men, which causeth silence to reign and all eternity is pained.

And the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth to gather the tares that they may be burned. Yikes." The yikes is my sort of added commentary there, right? The Lord doesn't say yikes. But this gives some credence to John the way you mentioned that you've taught and thought about the following two sections here, especially verse 40. The Lord is talking to the saints about separating wheat and tares. He's talking about burning those tares in preparation for his second coming. But the repeated message here from the Lord to the saints in section 38 is, Be ye strong to fear not, and continued reassurances that the kingdom is yours.

It is then that he tells them, in a short time, he will direct them to a land of promise, time, he will direct them to a land of promise, a land flowing with milk and honey, upon which there shall be no curse when the Lord cometh, and that he will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance and for the inheritance of your children forever, while the earth shall stand and ye shall possess it again in eternity, no more to pass away." Here is the promised New Jerusalem, not where they're going in Ohio, but somewhere else. The Lord then gives some additional counsel, which brings us to verse 32. Does one of you have section 38 verse 32 there? You got it. 38, 32. Wherefore, for this cause, I gave unto you the commandment that you should go to the Ohio,

and there I will give unto you my law, and there you shall be endowed with power from on high. All right. So in Ohio, the Lord is going to gather his people. He's going to deliver them his law, and he is going to endow them with power from on high. And as we read in subsequent verses, there he will, and I'm reading from verse 33 here, from thence whosoever I will shall go forth among all nations, and it shall be told them

what they shall do. For I have a great work laid up in store, for Israel shall be saved, and I will lead them whithersoever I will, and no power shall stay my hand." And then skipping over 34 to 35, there the saints will look to the poor and the needy and administer to their relief that they shall not suffer and send them forth to the place which I have commanded them. So, really interestingly here, we have an early articulation of what we think of today as the fourfold mission of the church. We have temple work. The Lord is going to endow them with power from on high. We have missionary work.

They're going to go forth among all nations. We have the perfecting of the saints. Israel shall be saved, and I will lead them whithersoever I will, and no power shall stay my hand. And we have caring for the poor and needy. The saints are to look to the poor and the needy and administer to their relief that they shall not suffer." Okay, what the Lord here is doing is preparing these people for Zion and Zion is intimately connected to the promised New Jerusalem. As I noted earlier, at least some of the saints were a bit unnerved or overwhelmed with the

thought of leaving New York and moving to Ohio. The Lord again addresses those concerns, and this is the verse I skipped over in verse 34. And now I give unto the church in these parts a commandment, that certain men among them shall be appointed by the voice of the church, and they shall look to the poor and the needy and administer to their relief that they shall not suffer and send them forth to the place which I have commanded them." Saints then were supposed to sell their farms and homes, and if they couldn't sell them, they should try and rent them, and if they couldn't rent them, they should simply leave them.

couldn't rent them, they should simply leave them. God had something greater in store for them, and he has promised here to watch over and care for them. Wow. Thank you for mentioning that fourfold mission of the church and for drawing it out of those verses. I'd love to say, yeah, I've always known that was there, but I did not know that was there. And so at this Fayette conference in January of 1831, there's not only church members assembled there, but also as had become custom by that point, potential converts and interested others. Many who were in attendance were baptized immediately following the conference and then joined the saints in their journey to Ohio later that month.

Among those in attendance was this man, James Covel. Again, an experienced Protestant minister who evidently believed the message he heard and sought further instruction from the Lord, which was received in the form of the revelation that we now have as section 39. This is received on January 5th, the last day of the conference. In it, the Lord promised James Covel that if he obeyed the revelation given and was baptized, then he would be assigned a greater work. And that greater work was to preach the fullness of my gospel, to build up my church, and to bring forth Zion in preparation for the second coming

of Christ." Now, this is, and I feel funny calling this boilerplate, but based on previous revelations, this is pretty boilerplate stuff. This is what the Lord tells individuals when they're getting called on missions. But unique among the revelations received to date, this revelation is immediately followed by section 40. It is a revelation received the very next day telling Joseph Smith why James obeyed not the command which he received. Covel, according to that second revelation, succumbed to the temptations of Satan and the

fear of persecution and cares of the world. Again, the lesson to others, including us, seems initially quite clear on reading section 40. Put the commandments of God above all else, above the cares of the world, trust in His promises to guide our lives. If not, we will be left to the temptations of Satan. I hope I can complicate that narrative just a little bit. I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that the Lord didn't say that in section 40, he does. And if that's the lesson we take, that's a perfectly valid lesson, but I don't think it's the full lesson the Lord has for us in the person of James Covel and his experience. So in order to understand that fuller message, we really need to delve deeply into who James Covel is. So as I noted earlier, historians struggled for 150 years to identify who James Covel was. The reasons why I think are pretty interesting.

So when the Doctrine and Covenants is first published in 1835, that very first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, the two revelations discussing Kovel were included as sections 59 and 60. The headnotes to each of those revelations at the time spelled the last name Kovel, C-O-V-I-L-L, instead of Kovel, C-O-V-E-L. In the earliest manuscript versions of the revelations, he is simply called James or James C. That is how he's identified in the Book of Commandments published in 1833, just James C. So he's either James or James C. And then somewhere in 1835, they get the last name Koval, C-O-V-I-L-L. In 1839, while preparing In 1839, while preparing Joseph Smith's history, the manuscript history of the church, James Mulholland, Joseph Smith's scribe, adds a few additional details about Koval.

He notes that Koval first approached Joseph Smith after the church's conference in Fayette and noted that Koval had been a Baptist minister for about 40 years. He also noted that upon rejecting the first revelation that Koval had been a Baptist minister for about 40 years. He also noted that upon rejecting the first revelation that Koval returned to his former principals and people. That was the basis for what historians knew about James Koval from 1839 until 2009. Okay. So I said 150 years, 170 years here. If you look at the Dutch incumnence in a pre-2013

version, the headnote repeats that information that we can trace back to 1839. Fast forward to 2005, when historians learned of a manuscript collection of revelations called the Book of Commandments and Revelations. This was discovered during a search of the first presidency's archival vault that was conducted on behalf of the Joseph Smith papers, then still in its very early years in 2005, in search of any documents that may have been in that vault pertaining to Joseph Smith, any documents he may have written that he may have dictated that he may have received. And among the things they found, again, was this manuscript collection of documents called Book of Commandments and Revelations.

It is kept in the hands of John Whitmer between 1831 and 1835, and it contains what became upon its discovery the earliest surviving manuscript versions of several of Joseph Smith's earliest revelations. So, this was a really, really exciting thing for historians. We finally located early manuscript versions of these revelations. Even if those revelations contained no new information, historians would have geeked out about this simply because it was a slightly earlier version. But it turns out that those revelations actually did include some differences and some additional information. So while the text of the revelations received by Joseph Smith and directed to James Covel

in January of 1831 do not differ in any substantial way from the revelations as we have them now, there is an index at the back of the Book of Commandments and Revelations, a hand-kept index in which it notes that James Covel, he is identified here as James, a Methodist priest. The received knowledge was that he was a Baptist and now we have this earlier version of the revelation that identifies him as a Methodist. I first learned about this discovery in 2009 at the annual meeting of the Mormon History Association. I think it was in St. George, Utah that year. So I was sitting sort of at the back, I was preparing my paper that I was supposed to

give later that day, and I was listening to a plenary presentation early on, it was probably Saturday morning, from members of the Joseph Smith Papers project staff, in which they were sharing some of their finds from this book of commandments and revelations. And one that my colleague and close friend, Robin Jensen, mentioned almost in passing, as if nobody would care, was that James Covel, they now believed, was a Methodist instead of a Baptist preacher. And at the time, I was a master's student at BYU, and I was finishing writing a master's thesis

that looked at Methodist converts to the early church and their influence on the shape and structure of the church in its early years. So my ears immediately perked up, and I thought, church in its early years. So my ears immediately perked up and I thought, I wonder if knowing that James Covel is a Methodist instead of a Baptist actually might change the way that we read section 39, might actually provide some insight into why he made the decisions he did, both in terms of initially being attracted to the church and the message he heard at the Fayette conference, and also his decision to ultimately walk away. I reached out to a friend, Rachel Cope, now your colleague there, Hank, in church history, and Rachel at the time was working for BYU Studies Quarterly, for the BYU Studies Quarterly Journal, and she said, yeah, if you'd be

interested in writing up sort of a short historical note on why knowing that he's a Methodist instead of a Baptist changes our reading of this revelation, I would be delighted to receive it here. And we'll send it out for peer review. And we'll see if we can get it published. And I thought, cool, this is a fun little potential publication. It shouldn't take too much work. This is maybe a week's worth of me sitting down and really thinking about this. And I'll send it off. So I did that. I think the initial draft was like five or six double-spaced pages, not extensive here. But as somebody who had been immersed for the last two to three years in the world of

early 19th century evangelical Christians of Baptists and Methodists, I thought, wow, actually knowing that he's a Methodist instead of a Baptist does change the way that we read sections 39 and 40. I wrote this up and I send it off to her. In the meantime, I became aware of Stephen Harper's 2008 volume, Making Sense of the Doctrine and Covenants, and I reached out to Dr. Harper after reading the following in his historical note on section 39. It says, Covel had been a minister for 40 years and then covenanted to obey the Lord's will as revealed to Joseph Smith, but he had been a Methodist, not a Baptist minister. There is no sign of Covel in Baptist records, but a James Covel,

spelled C-O-V-E-L, appears in Methodist records beginning in 1791, exactly 40 years before section 39 was received. And again, a reminder that he'd been called a Baptist minister for 40 years, okay. Turns out he was a Methodist minister for 40 years. Stephen Harper, and he credited Sherrilyn Farnes, his research assistant at the time, who also now teaches there in Church history, I think, as an adjunct professor, as an instructor there. He credited her with doing most of this research, so I want to make sure Sherilyn gets her credit there. And they found him starting in Methodist records in 1791 when he was appointed as a traveling preacher in Connecticut. He rode various Methodist circuits for four

years as an itinerant preacher. In 1795, he married a woman named Sarah Gould, the daughter of a Methodist preacher. He 1795, he married a woman named Sarah Gould, the daughter of a Methodist preacher. He rode the Lynn, Massachusetts circuit for a year before he located. So, early Methodist preachers are all itinerant, they're all traveling preachers, similar to sort of early Latter-day Saint missionaries traveling around. But typically, once they get married, they would locate, which means they would become a local preacher and maybe preside over a local congregation or at least help preach there and oversee things there. So, he does that.

And so, he settles, he raises a family, he apparently practiced medicine, and largely then drops out of Methodist records. This is what Stephen Harper wrote in 2008. Sarah and James had a son, James Jr., who followed his father into the ministry. The Covils moved to Maine and then to Poughkeepsie, New York around 1808. It is not clear where they were when they heard of Joseph Smith and with the short gospel about 1830, but most likely they were still somewhere in New York. So, that was the extent of what Steve Harper and Sherrilyn Farnes were able to find. I thought this was really exciting because now we had an

actual historical figure that we had identified. I still wasn't 100% sure if this was really exciting because now we had an actual historical figure that we had identified. I still wasn't 100% sure if this was our James Covel, but at least these initial findings sort of match that up. So after I began my thesis that summer, and my wife and I were preparing for a move cross-country to Williamsburg, Virginia for more school, I began a close reading of these two revelations and was both surprised and delighted at the ways in which Koval's religious affiliation changed my reading of them. Baptists and Methodists were bitter rivals in antebellum America, and they were both the most successful evangelical churches of the day. So these are the two largest and the two fastest growing Protestant churches in the United States by 1830.

Yeah, do a quick definition there for us, Christopher. Before the war. So, Ante before Bellum war. So, this is the period of history before the U.S. Civil War. Okay. Okay, keep going, Christopher. This is exciting. I get really excited about this. I hope that's okay. Baptists and Methodists shared a commitment to proselytizing, to preaching the gospel, but they also differed in key points of doctrine and church organization, among other things. And those themes immediately stood out to me on my reread of sections 39 and 40.

And again, I drafted this short historical note for BYU studies and I sent it off. And I didn't think anything more about it until I received feedback from the editors there and they said, hey, this is great. We're really excited about this. We're interested in publishing it. But we would love to know more about James Covel. Have you dug any deeper into who he was? Have we found any more details about him? Are we 100% sure that this is the guy?" And I said,

I don't know. Let me look. I was already planning a research visit that summer to Madison, New Jersey, where the largest Methodist archives are. They're housed at Drew University. And this is the United Methodist Church's archives from their General Commission on Archives and History. Think of their version of the church history department up in Salt Lake City. I had already done research there before. I knew the archivists well, and so I reached out to them and I said, I'm going to come up. I'm going to dig around for this guy. If you guys can take a look ahead of time and see if you can find anything, let me know. I spent two weeks in Madison, New Jersey, every single day, eight to nine hours a day,

just going through Methodist newspapers, Methodist manuscript documents, minutes of meetings, searching for anything and everything I could find about James Covel. With the assistance of Chris Anderson and Corey Flick, two of the archivists there, I was slowly able to piece together James Koval's life and preaching career. I even found two letters that he wrote that were published in newspapers. This was really exciting to me. And his life ended up being even more interesting than I initially imagined. I ended up greatly expanding the six page historical note into about a 30 page article that I submitted

to BYU studies and after a couple of rounds of peer review, it was accepted and then published in 2012. What I didn't know is that the church was also in the process of redoing the scriptures at that moment in 2012. I'm preparing for a new edition of the scriptures, all of the scriptures, including the Doctrine and Covenants. And a lot of the changes and updates, changes both to the text of the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants, but also especially to the historical headnotes and background information would come from the findings of

the Joseph Smith Papers Project. When those new scriptures were published in 2013, the first thing I very arrogantly did was flip to sections 39 and 40. I guess I did it flipped. I scrolled online because when they were first published, I just access them online. And I was delighted to see that Koval was now identified as a Methodist instead of a Baptist preacher and that his name was now spelled C-O-V-E-L instead of C-O-V-I-L-L in both the text of the revelations and in the historical headnotes. So, this was a really exciting moment for me. I'm a young graduate student, fairly recently married, and something that I've published has now helped lead to some changes, some updates in the Scriptures. I got to tell you, the two Methodist archivists that I

worked with, they think this is the coolest thing ever. They're like, wait, research you did here at the archives ended up in changes to Latter-day Saint Scripture. They did a whole news release about it. It was very exciting. That's fantastic. And wait, didn't you say this was going to be about a week? Yeah, this is what I thought.

I thought I would spend a week on this, you know, and flesh this out a little bit, and ended up kind of consuming most of that summer and then some of the next couple of years. So this is neat for a historian. We learned that he's Methodist, he's not a Baptist. We now know the correct spelling of his name. We think we've actually found the historical figure that is this guy. But why does any of that matter? How does that change any of our reading of these revelations? Why do listeners of Follow Him care? Let me suggest a couple of things. Knowing that he's Methodist instead of a Baptist helps us better understand the appeal

of what Covel heard at the January 1831 conference. Not only were Methodists more likely than Baptists to join the early church, somewhere between 35 and 40% of the first generation of Latter-day Saints come from Methodist backgrounds. This includes Emma Smith, this includes Brigham Young, this includes a number of very important leaders, but also just among the general membership of the church. I think also John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow. Eight of the original 12 apostles, yes.

Even Joseph Smith talks about how he's drawn to Methodism. But James Covel was not just any Methodist. Although initially baptized and ordained to the Methodist Episcopal Church, the forerunner of what is now the United Methodist Church. This is the largest institutional expression of Methodism in the early United States. In 1820, Covel actually left the Methodist Episcopal Church and united himself with a group called the Methodist Society of New York. This is a splinter group headquartered in New York City that separated itself from the Methodist Episcopal Church over, among other things, the issue of increasing

wealth and respectability among the Methodists and their treatment of the poor and needy, of the marginalized in society. So when Koval attends this conference in Fayette in January of 1831, what does he hear? Here is a revelation dictated by Joseph Smith, which commanded each member of the church to esteem his brother as himself and practice virtue and holiness before me, and the church more generally to organize, to look after the poor and needyy and administer to their relief so that they shall not suffer. It likely resonated with Koval, not just because he's coming from a Methodist background, but from this very specific strain of Methodism.

The connection then between 38 and 39 is wonderful, where you never would have seen it before. wonderful, where you never would have seen it before. In fact, section 38 has a parable. This is Jesus giving a parable, but it's not in our New Testament. In verse 26, For what man among you, having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one, Be thou clothed in robes, and sit thou here, and to the other, be thou clothed in rags, sit thou here, and to the other, be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there, and looketh upon his sons and sayeth, I am just." That would have resonated with James. Yeah, he would have found this very, very specifically appealing.

So just as his experiences as a Methodist had conditioned him, like so many others, to accept the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ in 1830 and 1831. His experience also likely shaped his response to the revelation that was directed to him. In the revelation received on January 5th, this is Doctrine and Covenants 39, Koval is commanded to arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Latter-day saints, of course, insisted on adult immersion or at least immersion after reaching the age of accountability. That same phrasing might actually have repulsed Koval on some level. Methodists were not so much opposed to baptism by immersion as they were opposed to their rival Baptists' insistence that adult immersion was the only acceptable form of baptism.

In the early 19th century, we have Methodists and Baptists, and there's all sorts of accounts of this going after one another over the specific question of proper form of baptism. They argue over infant versus adult baptism, they argue over baptism by immersion versus baptism by sprinkling or pouring. But there's this really fantastic poem that early 19th century Methodist writes about this specific issue. And it just delights me so much that they're writing poetry about this. You say, Go read the scriptures, and in them ye shall find the ordinance immersion upon us all enjoined. How can you be immersed, the word we cannot find, and if it's in your Bible, I'm sure

it's not in mind. But when you do immerse them, which we do think is wrong, it makes my heart to tremble, because you think the work is done. You say, My Lord's a Baptist. How do you realize? For there never was a Baptist, but one who did baptize. Your charity is scanty, and that the world can see. If you do not quit immersion, then we cannot all agree." I just love that they're writing poems about this.

They're writing poems about this. They're writing poems about this. It is possible and even likely then that the command to be baptized by immersion doesn't sit right with James Covel, that he has been brought up in this culture where they argue over these things and this matters so much to him that it's really hard for him to hear the Lord's command here, to arise and be baptized, to be immersed in the water. Okay, but that's not all. In that same revelation, Koval was also commanded to serve a mission. But he was told, thou art not called to go into the eastern countries, but thou art called

to go to the Ohio, where presumably he would help build the church in its new geographical center. It is possible that when Koval heard those words in 1831, he was 62 years old, and he had been traveling a circuit as a preacher full time for four decades. It is possible, it seems even probable to me that he was probably tired of doing so and had no interest in uprooting his family, his wife and children and moving several hundred miles westward. It's not just, oh, I don't want to uproot my family again or I don't want to leave them. There's also something deeper going on here. Among the reasons that the Methodist Society of New

York, this is the Methodist group that Koval is affiliated with, broke off from the Methodist Episcopal Church in 1820 was what they called ecclesiastical tyranny, in which the Methodist bishop dictated where preachers were to be sent. Koval and others who left and formed the Methodist society, which then later became part of a group called the Methodist Protestant Church, believed that preachers themselves sought to have more of a say in where they were stationed or assigned. While the early Church of Christ opens its priesthood to all males in good standing and promises each of its adherents the right to spiritual gifts, personal revelation, and a duty to proclaim the gospel, it also located authority squarely in the hands of its presiding elder, Joseph Smith, and his second elder, Oliver Cowdery. And that centralized prophetic authority, especially located in the hands of somebody that in comparison to

Covel was young, inexperienced, and uneducated, right, probably did not sit right with this senior 62-year-old, four-decade-long experienced minister. R. That can be hard. He's just a kid. That's exactly right. Some people find Joseph Smith really appealing, but we also have records where people meet him for the first time and they say, that's not what I expected a prophet to look like. This seems to be James Covel's situation here. In the historical headnote accompanying section 40, we learn that after receiving this initial revelation on January 5th, Joseph Smith the prophet and Sidney Rigdon received another

the following day on January 6th. Proceeding the record of this revelation, the prophet's history states, as James Covel rejected the word of the Lord and returned to his former principals and people, the Lord gave unto me and Sidney Rigdon the following revelation." Because I've been talking a lot, can I ask the two of you to read just those three short verses in section 40 here? Yeah. Behold, verily I say unto you that the heart of my servant James Coville was right before me for he covenanted with me that he would obey my word and he received the word with gladness. But straightway Satan tempted him and the fear of persecution and the cares of the world caused him to reject the word

wherefore he broke my covenant and it remaineth with me to do with him as seemeth me good amen. my covenant, and it remaineth with me to do with him as seemeth me good. Amen. Thanks, John. The come, follow me manual doesn't focus much on these verses, and that may be for the best. Again, this is not exactly kindly and loving from the Lord. This is pretty harsh stuff. And the implication for all of us is clear. Don't do that. There's something of a warning there for us. How many times have each of us let the cares of the world distract us from the things of the Lord? For me, way too many times to imagine. Not me. I don't know if it's ever happened. That's what I meant. Me, I was not going to call you out, Hanks. I want to focus here on the final words of that second revelation to Koval.

It remaineth with me to do with him as seemeth me good. Amen. Now at first glance that I sound like something of a threat. Right. Sounds kind of ominous. Yeah. He succumbed to the temptations of Satan. He went after the cares of the world and ultimately returned his former principles and people. And now I, the Lord will do as seameth me good. There's just one major problem. I don't know about you guys. That's not the God I worship, this vengeful God who is like, Ooh, now I get to do with that whatever I want. The God I worship, the God I know from my own experience, the God I read about in the Scriptures is a loving God.

He's a God whose hand is extended continually. And here's the cool thing about finding James Covel as a historical figure. We don't actually have to wonder what the rest of his life looked like. We don't have to wonder what it means for the Lord to do with him as seemeth him good. While we don't have journals or letters from Covel detailing his innermost thoughts, we do know the broad strokes of the remaining two decades of his life until his death in 1850. For the next several months, Covel's name doesn't appear in any Methodist records. And then in July 1831, it does. In a letter from Orrin Miller, the president of the Methodist

Protestant Church's Genesee Conference, he reports that, the Venerable Dr. J. Covel has been preaching to a large congregation, organized under his labors for the few months past, and the minds We expect our brother Koval will soon gather an abundant harvest in this neighborhood. And then in September, another report comes in. We were favored with a visit from Dr. James Koval, who preached with much zeal to the great Sabbath of the Lord. He was a very good preacher. He was a very good preacher. He was a very good preacher.

He was a very good preacher. He was a visit from Dr. James Covel who preached with much zeal to the great satisfaction of all that heard. And finally in December of 1831 a letter from Covel himself was published in which he described his preaching labors. I therefore determined to take the Bible and select such parts as were best adapted to bring the great truths therein immediately before the people. The blessed work still goes on. Convictions, conversions, and accessions are numerous and frequent. His colleague, Orrin Miller, concludes writing about these same events. I think I never knew Dr. Covel so much engaged in the work as at this meeting." And then with no sense of what we know as Latter-day Saints, he says,

it seemed as though Dr. Covel had renewed his age and was anointed anew with a divine unction from on high. Instead of going on to do great things as a Latter-day Saint missionary in Ohio, which I have no doubt he would have done, and which I selfishly wish that he might have done, Koval instead became renewed with fervor for taking up the message of Methodism and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ as he understood it. And I want to suggest that the hand of God may in fact have played a role in that. That God doing with him as seemeth him good was not some ominous promise of punishment, but rather sticking with Koval, with meeting him where he was at, with knowing that he had to respect Koval's agency and making the best of that situation. I think that those people that Koval preached to probably were truly converted to Christ.

Did they have the fullness of the gospel as taught by Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No. Did they have the Bible and the words of Jesus? Did they have prayer? Did they have preaching? Yes. And do I believe that God can lead those people

sincerely to conversion in Christ through Methodist preachers? A hundred percent, I do. Pete Yeah. What that can do for someone who's listening, who's thought, my son or my daughter, my brother, my former mission companion, they rejected my former mission companion, they rejected the covenants they've made here and oh, the punishment they're going to face. And here you're saying, hold on, that's not the God we know. I love how knowing someone's backstory increases how we extend more grace. Can we do that with everybody? When we talk about people who aren't here to defend themselves, we call it gossip. Does it change because they've died? It's still gossip, isn't it? They're not here to defend themselves and we don't know the full story.

Chris John, what a great insight. I would like to speak more to this because it is so relevant. John, I don't think anyone who listens to our show would say that we don't want people to stay active members of the church. With that said, I think, personally, a lot of us, I'm sure, can be better about the way we talk about those who leave, who go inactive, who go and do other things. We have quoted Stephen Robinson here before, but I'll quote him again. He was talking about First Nephi and the Church of the Lamb versus the Great and Abominable Church and the labels that we've put on that before. He said, just as there are those on the records of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

who belong to the great and abominable Church by virtue of their loyalty to Satan and his lifestyle, so there are members of other Churches who will eventually belong to the Lamb by virtue of their loyalty to Him and His lifestyle which will lead to their accepting the saving ordinances. And then this is the statement. The distinction is based on who has your heart, not on who has your records. Just really quick wrapping up Koval's life here. By 1836, four years after those events take place, he finally stepped down from his position as

president of the Genesee Conference of the Methodist Protestant Church and essentially retired. Then, 66 years old, the day-to-day strains of the position and the responsibilities had simply become too much. But instead of enjoying a kind of laid back, quiet retirement, Koval and his wife instead moved back to New York City, where they remained active in the community. They sort of threw themselves back into it. As soon as they arrived, you open up newspapers in New York City and you see James Koval has

helped with this community. James Koval has married this couple. James Koval preached a sermon in this local church. He remains active and involved in both preaching the gospel and working with the poor and marginalized in New York City. And he does that at least according to the bits and pieces of newspaper records we have. Up until his death in February of 1850, James Covel remains active and involved in the community. He's marrying people, he's preaching sermons, he's mentoring young people, they're hosting children and grandchildren that come to visit. He lives a rich and a full life.

We can read these revelations and we can take the message from them that here is an example of somebody who failed to heed the word of the Lord, to let the cares of the world get in the way, and who chose to walk away from some really incredible promised blessings that are laid out in section 39. That's an entirely fair reading of this, but it's not a full reading of it. Again, because of those final words in section 40, I will do with him as seemeth me good. And again, we don't have to wonder what the Lord did with James Covel. We know from his life story, even just the bits and pieces that we have of it, that God

continued to work through him to bring people to Christ, to help those in need, to be a good person and live a rich, full life. Hank, you mentioned that you think that this might be a message that is really appealing to listeners whose children may have stepped away from the church. I think about it regularly with students that I've taught, students that I've loved, who after graduating from BYU have chosen to take a break or step away, right? I think about family members and friends who have made similar decisions. And I think once upon a time, I wished more than anything else that they would just come back. And I still want that because I know about the incredible blessings that the gospel can bring. But what I've tried to do is take a message from these

revelations and seeing the grace that God continually extends to those people and have me try and emulate that and extend that same grace to them. That instead of looking at every single decision they make as something I wish they would not do, rather seeking the good and believing and having faith that God can do much good for them. I see this with family members. My wife's grandparents in El Salvador were among the first converts to the church in a tiny village in Usulutan, a department in El Salvador. They hosted the first church meetings there. The sacrament meetings took place in their living room.

Missionaries adored them and their family. My mother-in-law and her older sister were the only two children baptized because they were the only ones old enough to be baptized at the time. And then civil war came to El Salvador in the 1980s. Missionaries were immediately pulled and the church largely ceased to function, at least in some of these smaller towns and villages. My grandmother-in-law, my wife's grandmother, seeking to better her life and to provide for her family, escaped from El Salvador and came to the United States, came to San Francisco, California as a refugee.

She's lived there ever since. When she arrived in California, her activity in the church, let's just say, declined. That here was a woman who was married and had children now living apart from them and doing sort of menial labor to try and provide for them and sending money back to them as often as she could, including in an attempt to help some of her children also be able to migrate to the United States. For 30 years, my wife's grandmother fell into inactivity at best within the church, including that that was very much the state she was in when I first met her almost 20 years ago. And yet, she continues to be one of the most spiritual, one of the most God-fearing, and one of the best people that I know.

As a result of her continuing to do good and believing in God and God meeting her where she is, she has brought people into the church, even though she hasn't fully returned to activity. She has blessed the lives of her children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren now. My children all love going and visiting their Abuelita in San Francisco. And I think of her often when I read these verses and think about the good that God can continue to do working with us and through us, that His working with us and through us doesn't only come through those that are members of the church or that remain active in the church, that he can still bring about so much good

again by his hand being continually extended to them. Coming up in part two of this episode. One of the most meaningful ones arrived in my inbox a couple of years after it was published and it was from one of James Covel's descendants. She said that she had been doing family history research into him, genealogical research into him, and had come across my article and had uncovered this entire aspect of his life that she and her family knew nothing about.