followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 10-11 : Dr. J.B. Haws : Part II

Episode Date: February 2, 2021

What does Hank Smith mean when he says, “You can’t fool your family?” Join us for Part 2 of this episode with Dr. J.B. Haws as we learn how Hyrum Smith joins Joseph’s work and why Hyrum is described as having “integrity of heart.” If you would like to receive personal revelation from the Lord, learn more about Joseph and Hyrum’s relationship, and learn what the Lord means by “timing,” this episode is for you. Show notes available at followhim.co 

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. I'm ready to hear about Hiram Smith. This is not someone we've talked about at length in any podcast yet, but someone who deserves to be talked about at length. Hiram is one of these heroes of the Restoration. One thing I've noticed, Hank and John, that you do very well is you think about parents doing Come Follow Me. I think one story about Hiram that every parent should know and every family should know,

and I have loved talking to my kids about this, is that Hiram, so he's five years older than Joseph, and thinking back to that episode when Joseph was suffering this terrible leg infection and surgery, one thing that Lucy Mack Smith remembered when she later writes the history, and I think this must have stood out so much because it probably was in some ways unexpected for a 12-year-old, but that Hiram asked to take Lucy's place to press day and night, she says, Joseph's leg, because that pressure, that sort of rubbing it, provided Joseph a little bit of relief. So I love this image of a 12-year-old brother and a seven-year-old brother and Hiram sitting there, rubbing, pressing the leg to give day after day,

to give his little brother some relief. That to me pretty much encapsulates what I think is true about Hiram. His mother used these two great words that he was filled with tender sympathy. Obviously, we're going to look more and more at this relationship over the course of this year, right? And come follow me because Hiram's definitely, this isn't the only time we're going to hear about him. Do we know anything about how Hiram reacts in the earliest times to Joseph? And this is one of our difficulties that I'm sure you've

talked about and we'll continually talk about this year is that we don't have a lot of primary sources, contemporary sources about how the family reacted. So most of it is reminiscent. But one thing that I think does become clear both by reminiscent accounts and just by their own actions is that the Smiths were Joseph's earliest converts. And I think we see that with Hiram too, that they were fully on board, fully supportive, and fully trusting their son, their brother. And I think we sense that in section, kind of reading between the lines in section 11 of Hiram's enthusiasm to be part of this. He comes to Harmony to visit just on the heels of Samuel's visit in May 1829. That seems when it's likely that this, you know, revelation came. And so I think we get, you know,

a revelation to Josephus Senior. Then we know that Samuel came down, was baptized, and then we have Hiram coming. So I think that speaks to their enthusiasm and their support and wanting to be part of it. So absent contemporaneous records, I think, but everything points to the fact that they were enthusiastic and convinced believers. I don't think we can overemphasize this. You cannot, at least in my experience, you cannot fool your family. Yeah. It's just, you just can't. People will come up to my wife and I, you know, people who don't, who just know me from, from this podcast

or from whatever, a talk I gave or something. And they'll say, isn't it so great living with him? I can't imagine how great it is. And my wife, my wife is so good. She's, it is, it is just so great, but she knows me. She knows me. She's seen me at my best. She's seen me at my worst. And yet here, Joseph's family is all in. That should tell us something. Right. Right? That most certainly should tell us something. That's a fact we should never forget. Yeah. These people who knew him intimately, they knew his ups and downs. They believed him. I remember Elder Bednar saying that when he was called to be the president of then Rick's college, his son, he said, he looked at him and said, you, you know, like, don't they have someone better?

You know, aren't we grateful for moments like that? Yeah. And you know, I think right along those lines, I mean, what, what you get the sense in section 11 was that Hiram. And you know, I think right along those lines, I mean, what you get the sense in section 11 was that Hiram is ready to go. I mean, he is so enthusiastic. He wants to be sharing this message. And section 11 is a bit of a restraining revelation saying, there are a few other things that you should be spending your time on right now in terms of preparation, getting ready, other things that I need you to do before your tongue is loose, before you're sent out to preach. But I think that's, that very fact speaks to Hiram's enthusiasm for, for spreading this, this new message that has come to his brother. Yeah. And I think there's, there's often something to be said, and this is something I'm

sure we'll hit later this year, JB, but the humility of an older brother taking that kind of background role. I don't know. Maybe Hiram doesn't have the pride I have, but I, being the youngest, had nothing but older siblings to kind of exert their power over me. The idea that me, the younger brother, I'm going to be in charge. I don't think any of my siblings would have been overly excited about that idea. It's a Laman Lemuel Nephi thing. They never bought in for that. And it comes up, right? You, our younger brother, will not be our ruler. Oh, let's see. Let's have a war in Alma. Hey, you know why? Because the Laman was older than Nephi, and that was like 500 years ago, but we're still irritated by this.

That fits so well with the human condition, and I think you're right, Hank. I think that speaks to Hiram's goodness. Later in the Doctrine and Covenants, much later, section 124, we have this great tribute to Hiram in this revelation, what the Lord says that he loves Hiram because of the integrity of his heart and because he loves what is right. It's hard to think of a higher compliment than to the integrity of your heart and that you just are someone who loves what is right. And that seems to be Hiram. That was in my notes. I wanted to make sure we hit that section 124 verse 15. And what a thing to hear that in scripture about yourself. That's incredible.

And then the application comes, right? And I don't want anybody walking away from this podcast feeling, oh, good, I'm a worthless, terrible person. But it does make me want to analyze my own life. Do I love what is right? Do I love what is right? You know, there's one thing about avoiding evil because it's bad another to i don't want evil right i don't i don't want it my heart is is not not after it i can't picture president nelson in his office you know when he sees there's a movie he's like oh

please don't be r oh it's r oh i think i might go anyway, right? You know, this pulling towards that, which is not good for us. There's a lot of little bit of advice, like some of these great phrases like, seek not to declare my word, but to obtain it. I mean, there's some things you want to do first. And it seems like it would have been really wonderful, maybe wonderful slash terrible,

depending on what the Lord said, just to be in Joseph's presence. Hey, can I get one of those? Can I get some personal scripture for me? Don't the Whitmer brothers do the same thing and get like exactly the same section? And then I wonder if they came at a time where it was, you know, just go to Joseph Smith Sr. and get your patriarchal blessing. Because they're such a small group. They're a very intimate group and they all are probably where they are because of the kind of hearts they have and the kind of enthusiasm blessing. Because they're such a small group. They're a very intimate group and they all are probably where they are because of the kind of hearts they have and the kind of enthusiasm they

have and their seekers feels like there's this sense that everybody wants to know, what role can I play? I'm so excited to see this come forth. What role can I play? So I think they do feel a lot like patriarchal blessing parallels. And that's become a great legacy for the church that all of us can kind of have that same sort of message from the Lord. Yeah. I think I'd be overly tempted. I think Joseph would probably get tired of me. I already gave, yeah, but what does the Lord want of me today? Go ask him, go ask him. Or else I might be like, Joseph, let's do this in private, but I want to know what the Lord thinks of me, but don't tell anybody else because that's a scary moment, right? What does the Lord want from me? And then

the Lord doesn't hold back. It's a good revelation about timing. Probably many of our listeners are familiar with a classic Elder Oaks talk, how our strengths can become our downfall. And if we're not familiar with that, look that one up, how our strengths can become our downfall. One of the stories he tells, and this is, this is one of those stories that you just, at first you're like, wow, that's not how I expected this story to end. So he's saying, when I was, when I was president of BYU, this is Elder Oaks, when I was president of BYU, they were building the Provo temple. And I said, I, I distinctly remember a conversation with President Harold B. Lee, who expressed concern that with the

proximity of this new temple that BYU students would become so enthralled with temple work that they would neglect their studies. And so President Lee charged Elder Oaks not to let that happen. And so at first you think, okay, wait, wait, wait. The president of the church is saying to the president of BYU, don't let your students become so enthralled with temple work that they neglect their studies. But I think there was an important point about timing. And this is where Elder Oaks said, our strengths can become our downfall. And that if we go to extremes to forget what things the Lord has also wants us to be doing, we may not be the kind of instruments in his hands that he needs us to be. And so BYU students, you have an important time period to be preparing yourselves,

to be doing your studies. That will make you better instruments in the long run. Don't let even something good like temple worship overwhelm you because of timing. And so I hear something similar to the Lord saying to Hiram is that you are going to be such an instrument in my hands. In order to be a better instrument, these are some of the things you need to do to prepare right now. These are some of the things you can be devoting your time to right now so that you will be the kind of instrument I need you to be when that time comes. One of the things I hear from my students is some, especially

they're starting a new semester right home from their missions. And they literally say, I feel so selfish because I'm just working on all my classes all day long and taking tests and stuff. And that's that perfect answer. Hey, this is a timing thing. You are now preparing to become an even better instrument

for other people, for your future ward, future family. And there is a time for you to, as Stephen Covey might say, to sharpen the saw. I'm so busy sawing down this tree. Well, why don't you sharpen the saw? I don't have time. I've got to saw down this tree. Well, you have to stop and become a better instrument. So yeah, I like that preparation in here. I'm looking at like, maybe I'm jumping ahead, but I'm looking at verse 12. Put your trust in the Spirit which leadeth to do good. This is all type preparation type thing.

To do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously, and this is my Spirit. And we had a wonderful discussion, as you might have expected, when we talked about section 9 about the burning in the bosom type of revelation, to help Oliver Cowdery translate, but look at verse 13, I will impart unto you my spirit which shall enlighten your mind, and which shall fill your soul with joy. So he's being taught how he will feel the Spirit, and I think how most of us, if I dare say that,

is more of an enlightening clarity that we might get rather than a physical burning. Yeah, and what a great connection with sections eight and nine. I think all of us should put these section 11 verses in these early Doctrine and Covenants sections because what I love is the Doctrine and Covenants is not just a book of revelations, it's a book about revelation. It's a book about how we can each get revelation. And these are some verses that we need to add as we say, well,

how does the Spirit communicate with us? It enlightens us. It fills us with joy. It prompts us to want to be just and humble and judge righteously. And those are the kinds of things we can recognize when we're feeling. And yeah, I mean, you hear the Lord saying, Hiram, recognize the spirit, keep learning how revelation works. That's going to be crucial in your ministry. And I think that same thing, I mean, just could be lifted right off the page for each of us too. We've all got to

learn that language of the spirit and these are things we can look for. Yeah, this is beautiful. It almost as if the Lord knows he has a dual audience here. He has Hiram who he's speaking to, but he also knows how many of us are going to read this and early in the doctrine covenants. He says, yes, this is a book about of revelations, but you, you need to understand what the spirit feels like. So I'm going to kind of give you a little prep work here in the, in the beginning, you know, when students come to me or a teenager come to me and say, brother Smith, I don't know if I've ever felt the spirit. I try not to, I try not to make fun of them because that's not a good thing to do, but I automatically go to this idea of wait, what, what, what I hear, and this is kind of facetious, but

what I hear is someone in front of me going, I don't know if I've ever breathed before. Uh, because I'm like, really? You don't know if you're standing here. I promise you, you've breathed because they just don't know that they felt the Holy ghost. So I usually take them to section 11 verse 12. Have you ever wanted to do good? Yes. Have you ever wanted to be honest? Just yes. Have you ever wanted to be humble and to not judge other people? Yes. Guess what that was? That was the Holy Ghost. They're like, wait, I feel that way all the time. Shocker.

The promise of the sacrament is that they will always have his spirit to be with them. So for me, this is a great verse to help my children, to help my students understand. You're going to feel the spirit most of the time because the Lord is so good and you have the gift of the Holy Ghost. Have there ever been times where you didn't want to do good? Have there ever been times you didn't want to be honest? Has there ever been times where you didn't want to do good? Have there ever been times you didn't want to be honest? Has there ever been a time you wanted to judge other people? You felt like you you're OK doing that? Well, yeah, those are pretty rare moments.

But those are times when I don't have the spirit. So I think it was Elder Bednar who said, don't try to focus so much on the moment you have the spirit. Because as if it's a once in a year type thing, you know, EFY girls camp or whatever, it's the times where I don't. I think Hank, that that's, that's a great approach. I do think this just corresponds so nicely with, you know, the Galatians idea of the fruits of the spirit. I mean, that we see these manifest by what they prompt in us and the kinds of actions that the way we feel, the things we want to do, the kind of people we want to become.

I love what you've said. And I love that Lord's declaration at the end of verse 12, this is my spirit. And then the confidence that I think when we start to recognize this and we start to say, okay, I can relate to this. Then in verse 14, and then shall you know, or by this shall you know all things whatsoever you desire of me, which are pertaining to things of righteousness in faith, believing in me that you shall receive. I mean, we start to realize I am feeling the language of the spirit. I am hearing this, these promptings. This is part of me. I can know truth.

I do know truth. This is, I think it builds a lot of confidence. I love that. Do you want to do good? That's the Holy ghost. Do you want to be honest? That's the Holy ghost. He even says it before trust in that spirit, which, you know, he fills in the blank. And then he says, this is my spirit. I don't know how much more clear he can be with saying, this is my spirit, by the way, this is my spirit, right? Our friend and colleague, Brad Wilcox, he likes to say, when does a fish know he's surrounded by water? And the answer is, when he isn't. And it's like, really?

Whoa, I've been surrounded by water all this time? And I think Elder Glenn Pace talks about, well, for a lot of people, it's new. For us, we've been so used to it, we're not sure we're feeling it. We hear converts come in and are all excited because they had been without it for a time or recognize it, perhaps. So, especially with kids, that it's a still, small voice. It's not going to knock you over. It's not thunder and lightning.

It's subtle. But you know, and you could tell your kids this. My kids during general conference, I mean, they'll say, and now we're going to hear from Elder Holland. And I can see my kids look over each other like they're kind of excited. And after that talk, were you kind of fired up? Did you feel like you just had your mind enlightened? Did it fill you with joy? And take a minute and say, well, what do you think that is? Why were you so fired up? And I think King Benjamin's people, you know, we have no more disposition to do evil. I always ask my students, was that permanent? And I don't think it is because you have to read the next chapter.

Well, now I'm going to give you a name. I'm going to tell you how you can always have his spirit. And it's such a critical discussion when, I think, when young people say, I don't know if I've ever felt the spirit. It's good to spend some time on that. Absolutely. I love the focus on the verb enlighten. And I think you said, John, you used the word that clarity. I mean, this is everywhere. I mean, you think about in every cartoon, an idea is represented by a light bulb that goes off.

And Joseph Smith's description that pure intelligence flowing into us, sudden strokes of ideas. I think those are moments we realize that clarity, that enlightening, those light bulb moments, that's the, the spirit can brings those kinds of things, that pure intelligence, those sudden strokes of ideas. Oh, this is wonderful. I, John, I don't know about you, but I feel this way after every one of these interviews, I feel like I want to go out and do something good. I want to go out and tell everybody how much I love the prophet joseph smith and to me i very clearly that is uh the presence of presence of the spirit um so we hope our listeners feel this way they're hopefully they're not like well at the end of your episodes i'm usually quite tired and just hoping that you'd be quiet sometime soon this verse nine um say nothing but repentance i i'm i'm afraid I've come across missionaries who might make that a little

too literally. If we take that absolutely literally, then what are we saying at every door? Repentance, repentance, repentance. That's the only thing we say, right? My son, when he was on his mission in Iceland, one of his first letters said, Dad, I'm going door-to-door annoying people. And that was a difficult moment for me. And we went back into Preach My Gospel together, back to this verse, even. And it's very helpful to see what the Bible dictionary definition of repentance is. It is so positive. A fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world. Go and give people a fresh view about God, about oneself, about the world. Does the Lord really want us to say, repent, repent, repent in that way? And some have this idea of this elevator theory of, I've got 10 seconds with this person. I got to hit him with

everything I've got right now. Kind of forgetting section four has the word patience in it. That strikes me as so true, John. And I think your missionary son was lucky to have you as his dad. I also think all of us in the church are lucky to have President Nelson right now. We all should be paying attention to what President Nelson is saying about repentance, how we should view repentance. This is, I think, one of the great gifts of his ministry is how we should think about repentance. I love that idea, a fresh view of the world. It's re-choosing. It's turning a new direction. It's refreshing. And that's, I think, the spirit of this idea that we want to do it every day, and we should be so grateful for it. There's the idea of we can preach repentance without

being condemnatory, right? Without coming across. I think of Aaron when he first goes to the Lamanites, remember, and he tells them that they need to repent. And their response is, how do you know that we have need to repent? How knowest thou that we are not a righteous people? We've built sanctuaries to assemble our God. So I don't want to come down on Aaron here because I think Aaron's a thousand times the prophet missionary I'll ever be, but I think his approach was maybe a little more condemnatory. I'm going to tell you need to repent without kind of an understanding of who you are. His brother Ammon was more of, I'm here to serve. I do know you need to repent, but I'm here to serve.

I'm going to win your heart, right? There's an interesting moment that I wonder if it happens between Alma 21 and 22, because Ammon shows up and gets Aaron out of prison, right? And there's got to be, how did you do that? Well, I, uh, I went to the King. I baptized the King. Oh, you baptized the King. How'd you do that?

Well, I first decided to serve him, you know, and, and win his heart. You didn't walk into their church and tell them how bad they were. Did you? Right? No, no. Right. Because, because the next chapter, Aaron gets a chance to teach Lamoni's father. And he says, oh, king, if you will spare our lives, we will be thy servants.

So I wonder if there was a little brotherly conversation. Aaron, you're doing it wrong. Yeah. So maybe we have our definition wrong when the Lord says, say nothing but repentance. We think of, I'm going to walk in and tell you everything you're doing wrong, where JB's saying, that's not what the Lord means by that. I keep hearing this phrase from President, now Elder Uchtdorf, to share the gospel in normal and natural ways. Somebody in London started a cooking show of how to cook Mexican food on their

Facebook page in London, a couple of missionaries, because they're in their apartment during the pandemic. And the responses they're getting was, oh, you guys are like normal guys. And I think if we're walking in with our 15 second repent message every time, we're not coming across in normal and natural ways to quote President Uchtdorf. So I thought, how there, Hey, you guys are normal guys. Yeah. We're going to show you how to cook Mexican food from our apartment here in London. How cool is that?

And then, you know, John, all this discussion, that's not to say there isn't a time or a place to call someone to repentance. We see that throughout the scriptures, uh,

many prophets coming to, to cry repentance, uh, to a people. So what do you think, JB, where's the balance between I'm going to, I'm going to teach repentance, but I'm not, I'm going to try not to a people. So what do you think, JB? Where's the balance between I'm going to teach repentance, but I'm going to try not to be condemnatory to people?

That is the $64,000 question. And what I think, this is one of the places where I think the Doctrine and Covenants has a lot to offer us. The Doctrine and Covenants has a lot to say about sharing the gospel and how we handle this and follow the Spirit. That can sound kind of trite, and it also can almost sound like we're dodging the question, but I think that's what the Lord's message is to Hiram. And again and again is this idea of open your mouth and it will be filled. You treasure up the words of life, and I'll help you meet out the measure that every person needs. Even to Hiram in the same section, section 11, verse 21. If you seek to obtain my word, then shall your tongue be loosed.

Then if you desire, you shall have my spirit and my word, yea, the power of God and the convincing of man. And so I think all of us, it behooves all of us to say, we've got to be in tune with the spirit. We've got to live in such a way that the Spirit is with us. And then we can have the confidence that when we open our mouths, it'll be filled. Because we're the kind of people, we're developing that kind of charity, that pure love of Christ, that that's just who we are naturally and normally, as John said so well.

So I think one of the Doctrine and Covenants messages over and over again is treasure up the words of life and then trust that when you open your mouth, the spirit can help it be filled. It can give you the right measure at the right time. A person who is really seeking to repent daily will be good at teaching repentance, right? Because I'm doing it every day in my life. Then I've got that spirit and I'm, I'm going to say the, the, the right thing that that person needs because I personally am repenting. So maybe one point I probably struggle with you to never do is teaching repentance without being, without personally repenting. That can be, that, that will lead to

a problem. That's beautiful. I think that's, I think you're right because what that personal attitude does is it helps us to avoid self-righteousness. Self-righteousness really is probably the thing that just cuts all of this off. When there's a sense of pride or arrogance that we're coming from, you know, as John said, a condemnatory place. I mean, if we're that kind of person, if we're repenting daily, if we embrace that, then that helps us avoid that self-righteousness. JB, I don't know if you remember this, and I won't mention this professor's name, but I remember a day in our master's program when our professors came in and basically said, I'm having a hard day, and kind of told us about something, a judgment or something he said to one of his friends. And boy, I mean, I just remember that day because he was like, I felt that I said this to my friend,

and I'm really sorry. And it was just putting his own heart on display for us. And I loved what Hank said there. I want to tell you all how to repent, but I don't want to go through it myself. But bringing it back to missionary work and what Hiram's being told, I think that maybe my weakness is I'm in constant search of the formula. And maybe that's what mission... We all have a little bit of law of Moses in our spiritual DNA. Oh, well, if I do this, this, this, investigators will do this. And what the Lord's saying is, you've got to treasure up my word, seek first to obtain it, and the Spirit will help you. And that is harder, isn't it? Instead of, here's the formula, it's harder to say, you qualify for revelation,

and you might say something differently to this person than to that person than to this person. And also a recognition, and this is some more application, is that Jeremiah 16, 16, where the Lord says, I'll send forth hunters and fishers. And one of my responses to my son was that, hey, I was kind of in a fisher mission. We could talk to as many people all day long as we wanted to in the Philippines. It was wonderful. You're in a hunter mission. It's a little harder. People aren't as willing to talk about things like that. And I can't give you a formula. Neither can Preach My Gospel give you a formula, except to say, seek the Spirit. And you'll get those words when you need them, which sounds like what Hiram is being told.

First obtain the Word, seek the Spirit so that you'll know in the moment what to do. Wow, John, that's beautiful. That really speaks to me. Probably many of our listeners noticed this in the Book of Mormon Come Follow Me curriculum, but if any of us missed it, or maybe we should read it again, but one of the talks that was mentioned late in the Book of Mormon year was Elder Oaks' challenge, the challenge to become. That's what I think we're describing is that this is not a check the list formula. This is about becoming a certain kind

of people. This is the C.S. Lewis quote that we may think that God wanted obedience to a specific set of rules. What he really wants are people of a particular sort. And I think that's a doctrine coming over and over is how to become people of a particular sort, the challenge to become something, to become this kind of person. Not about doing the right things, It's about becoming the right person. I always use the evolution of the song, I Am a Child of God by Naomi Randall. First, teach me all that I must know. President Kimball suggested, teach me all that I must do.

Then when I heard Elder Oaks' talk, I thought, teach me all that I must be. And you remember Elder Lynn Robbins gave that talk about we have to-do lists, but what we need is to-be lists. Yeah. And to-be lists are never done. That was a fantastic observation as well.

But thank you for- I love that phrase. That's good. Yeah. Let's look at this principle towards the end of section 11. I'm seeing common language. JB, you called this a restraining revelation. I'm seeing this over and over.

He says in verse 15, you're not called to preach until you're called. Wait a little longer in verse 16. Have patience in verse 19. I want you to keep my commandments. Verse 21, seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word. And then in verse 22, study my word. I mean, this definitely the Lord's message over and over is not yet, not yet. I want you to do some personal work first before we go do this. Look at verse 26 too. Look at, read 26. Therefore treasure up in your heart until the time, which is my wisdom that you shall go forth. So there seems to be, there's obviously the message here to Hiram, which is, I know you're excited. I know you want to get out and teach, but I want you to do some

private work first. Is that really the message to Hiram and to all of us is to, there's got to be a personal transformation before we can go do this, go breach our excitement? Oh yeah. I think that's well said. I think it does have that great Doctrine and Covenants phrase, what I say unto one, I say unto all, that shows up on several places. And this feels a lot like that, that this is a very universally applicable

revelation sentiment. And maybe the specifics are different for us, and we may feel prompted that we hear sudden strokes of ideas that this is what I need at this time. This is what I need to transform. But I think that principle is all over the place that, yeah, this is the Lord is asking us, calling us to become instruments in his hands. And there are things we can do to be better at that. John and I both love Stephen Covey, and this was a common Stephen Covey principle was the idea of private victories precede public victories. And so often I want to move to the

public victory point of life, but this revelation seems to be, let's get that private victory just really solid before we move into the public domain. I think the Lord said this when he said, the wise man builds his house upon a rock. A foundation is kind of the unseen part of the house, but this unseen part is the vital part that's going to keep us going, that's going to keep us standing forever. So work on the unseen parts of life. And those aren't as fun, right? Because I'm, I'm not up in front in people going, wow, you totally, that changed my life. Thank you so much. There is something to be said of, I want to go teach. I want to go help people. But before we can really be effective publicly, we must first be sound through whatever word you

want to fill in there privately. He said, we must warm them before we warn them. That sounds like going back to the Ammon thing. But I think he's also said, I can't hear what you say because what you are shouts so loudly in my ears. But I don't want everybody to pack their bags. We're going on a guilt trip. It's just that, yeah, there's a reminder here. We'll be able to teach repentance when we are constantly striving to do that.

And boy, did Joseph have to go through it there as we've talked. The thing that I think all of us should realize as readers of the Doctrine and Covenants is how this came to be so fulfilled in Hiram's life. I mean, he took this to heart. And so I think about just over a year from this moment, he's going to meet a young Parley P. Pratt and he becomes the first encounter for Parley P. Pratt of the Smith family. Parley P. Pratt records that they stayed up all night, Parley and Hiram. And he said that Hiram unfolded the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the

restoration. And then Hiram hands him a copy of the Book of Mormon as Partopee Pratt leaves. So he becomes the one whose tongue is loosed in teaching all of this to Partopee Pratt. And then William McClellan comes to Hiram, has met a few other elders, and William McClellan says he and Hiram had a four-hour conversation, after which William McClellan asked Hiram to baptize him. So two of the original 12 apostles in this dispensation, Hiram becomes their missionary, the one whose tongue was loosed in all of these ways so that this promise really was fulfilled in part of E. Pratt and William McClellan's and others' cases.

One other fulfillment that I just think is great to see how this section comes to pass is verse 19. Cleave unto me with all your heart that you may assist in bringing to light those things of which has been spoken, yea, the translation of my work. In just a matter of months, Joseph's going to entrust Hiram with the transporting of the pages to the printer. So Hiram and Oliver are the ones who stay in Palmyra while the Book of Mormon is being printed. And Hiram is the one who carries the transcribed pages from Oliver to the printer and oversees this work. We can't even overestimate how much trust that required. And

Hiram was the one charged to do this. These promises, these expectations are fulfilled. And then plus he becomes one of the eight witnesses. So I think that, uh, we, we see what the Lord prophesied in verse in section 11 coming to pass and Hiram lives up to these charges. I have a question for both of you. Then if I want to become a Hiram Smith type individual, I want to become someone who can really be a wonderful instrument in the hands of the Lord. How do I look at verse 21, seek not to declare my word, not yet, but first seek to obtain my word. And then he says in verse 22, study my word. I want to have this private victory before this, before I go out and seek to, you know, be this instrument in the Lord's hands. How do you obtain his word to treasure up in our hearts and then let it kind of blossom naturally out of us?

That's good, Hank, to focus on that verb obtain and to think about all that goes into what, how do we obtain something? How do we own something? Yeah, it's like it becomes yours when it's that word. It's not just the scriptures, it's my scriptures. That alone provokes some really interesting thoughts about how do I own this? So it's just become so much a part of me. It's the fabric of my being. I'm thinking of almost the roots in a tree, right? Where the roots are the unseen part. And if my roots are strong enough, the tree is going to withstand everything. And Hiram does.

Hiram withstands what others seemingly can't along this road, right? Along this path. Many people are going to fall away, but Hiram never does. He is so solid. And I think of that tree with the roots so deep and those roots growing is the idea of obtaining my word. And I want to be that. JB, John, I want to be that. I want to be the guy who can withstand it, withstand it all. But I've got to have these private victories. But how did you do it, John? I mean, look at you, John, you can rattle off these scriptures and these references. You obviously own it. What's the private victories you put in to own it? I told my kids this, that

there was a part of me on my mission that I feel like woke up. There was a part of me that got excited about it, and I think that that can be an object of prayer for people. Help me to crave this. Help me to be excited about this and to feel what Hiram felt that enlightened your mind and filled you with joy. So sometimes when I study, I'm preparing for a class and I feel like I get the personal benefit and I also get to teach it. And it's kind of like, that's not fair. There's a lot of people who don't have this for their honorable occupation. But I think there's never been a time on the history of the planet when it's been easier. When you can tell your phone, read me a talk this morning, or I want to hear a conference talk today.

And I'll even put it at time and a half so I can listen to it a little bit faster. And so I think maybe that's one of those things where we actually ask the Lord to help us with our desires. To desire to learn more and to obtain and to retain as well. Obtain and retain. I like that. Obtain and retain. Treasures just right there on our phones, commentaries, lessons, talks, everything right

in our fingertip. Obtaining it has never been easier. Retaining it, that's different. JB, how did you obtain my word? And again, I don't want anybody listening going, oh man, I'm so far behind. I don't even, this is something all of us- Yeah, we don't want to induce a guilt trip to anybody here. And we do all have the benefit of being able to teach this for our employment. How did you come to obtain the word? Because JB, I would describe you as Hiram,

right? The power of God under the convincing of men, right? You have that. And many other people do. They have the power of God unto the convincing of men, but that only comes from obtaining. I wrote a quote in my scriptures here a long time ago from President Harold B. Lee, you cannot light a fire in another soul unless it is burning in your own soul. And that's for me as a parent, if I want the fire of the gospel to burn in my children's soul, it must first be burning in my soul. I'm moved. I'm really moved by what you both are saying. Something just popped into my head that- That enlightened your mind? Well, we'll see.

We'll see if this was an enlightening moment. But this is a President Hinckley quote. This is a rough paraphrase, but at least a couple of the words that just always stood out to me. He was encouraging a daily scripture study. And I think there's something about just frequency and consistency. And then he said, I strongly encourage you to make scriptures a daily part of your life. And then he said this line, what might start out as tedious will grow into a love affair with the word of God. And I love President Hinckley, just how real he is about everything. It's his recognition that we might be at the tedious stage. And so if I'm at the daily habit to trust that it's going to turn into a love affair with the word of God. And, and, and I think what, um, I love what John said about praying for these

desires. I mean, this is, this to me is that Alma 32 experience, you know, try the experiment, don't neglect the seed, just keep watering it, keep feeding it, keep, um, fertilizing it and see what happens. And naturally, almost imperceptibly, it's going to grow into something that's going to spring forth with the fruit of eternal life and it will become a love affair. And so if I'm at the tedious stage, just keep going, just keep going. We had a lady in our testimony meeting a few weeks ago who said that the nature of my job, I listen to the news while I'm working on my laptop. And the news can be pretty depressing.

And she started to be affected by things that were going on. And she said, one day I was kind of praying without ceasing and said to the Lord, I feel rotten, you know. And she felt that the Lord whispered to her, okay, you know what all of them think. Are you ready to listen to what I think? And she said, I started putting on conference talks during the time I was on my laptop, and she testified to the whole congregation via Zoom, and some of us were there, what a difference it had made in her life to surround herself with that. And I mean, I was taking notes. I thought, yeah, the Lord's

saying, well, you've heard all of that now, but here's all of this right here. Maybe it's tedious at first, but it'll grow on you, it'll grow in you, and it'll change you. Yeah. John, isn't that your principle, the principle of the marinade? Yeah. Dallin Bayless, who has played Hiram Smith many times, and Joseph Smith, too, in the Nauvoo pageant and stuff. I was at a time out for women with him, and we got on a plane to go home. And, I mean, he's saying, bring him home, and just brought the house down to all these women in Rochester. And we're on the plane home. What are you doing now?

I'm teaching seminary. And he said, my mentor told me, and it was just one of those moments I had to reach for a pen, regardless of your original intention, you will eventually become what you surround yourself with. And I was like, I've got to write that down. And that became a whole talk. Thank you, Hank, for even remembering that. But we become what we surround ourselves with. Well, wouldn't it be wonderful to surround ourselves to a greater degree, even if tedious at first, with these beautiful, powerful, affirming words? What we'll know

will automatically and naturally begin to happen in us. And I like what you said, John, there's no better time in the history of the world, no easier time to surround yourself. I mean, I've turned my car, because I spent a lot of time, well, I used to spend a lot of time in my car before the world shut down last year,

but I turned it into a university, a gospel university, where I can throw on a BYU devotional or a general conference talk or listen to the scriptures themselves or listen to a podcast like this one. And we can marinate our lives in the gospel. To me, that's got to be part of obtaining my word. Then you'll have that power of God into the convincing. And what did the Lord tell Hiram here? Verse 13, fill your soul with joy. That's a fruit that JB mentioned.

You guys are going to laugh at this, but there was one time I was out mowing the lawn and I was listening to Sperry Symposium talks. JB, you know what those are, right? I put it in the headphones and I felt so uplifted and so edified as I'm mowing the lawn, I am crying. I am just crying as I was listening to a talk by Mike McKay, who we've had on the podcast. And he was talking about Joseph Smith. And I was so filled with joy and just goodness that I just started crying. And I had to look so odd. Here's me mowing the lawn, just loving my yard, apparently, because I was just crying

with joy over it. I think we've got, I hope we've got to the essence of this section. This is very thought provoking, Hank and John. I mean, and as I'm just thinking, I also think that one of the blessings we're probably all feeling to a greater degree than we maybe even were a year ago is how important it is to have conversations about these things. And I hope all of us are seeking out conversation partners. For many of us, that's in our own home. It might be with extended family. It might be with a trusted friend through social media. I just think there's something powerful about sharing these insights.

I also think that's another way to obtain it, to own it, is to have the power of being uplifted by another person and to share something that's hit us. I mean, this is one of the, I think the miracles of Come Follow Me is it's getting all of us to think more about how can we have these kinds of conversations that really, really matter. And I think we'll have this communal lifting of each other up and feeling that we're becoming this way as a people. We'll marinate in this spirit. So, JB, we're in our class with Joseph Fielding McConkie

and people, if they haven't heard that name, they're probably wondering, gee, was he a member of the church? One of the things that's intriguing about so many of the ancient scriptures anyway are names and their meanings. And sometimes a name seems to indicate a mission, as with names like Israel, let God prevail, Isaiah, Jehovah is salvation. Well, I remember Joseph McConkie, when they saying Joseph, the name Joseph means he who adds. And then he said the name Hiram means my brother

is exalted. Wow. Someone has told me, John, they said, I watched the video of your podcast and I only see your eyelids so much. And it's because I'm always writing. I'm always, oh, that's good. I'm going to write that down. I'm going to write that down. And I want to say to JB, when you said these conversations, you know, my favorite come follow me conversations have not happened during our official come follow me time. So I would say to everybody out there that it's okay to be, I'm mostly frustrated during our family come follow me time, right? It's mostly just, oh oh he's breathing my air right can you please just we spend 20 minutes just getting everybody on the right place right uh but then the conversations that maybe happen on the car ride to school you know or the conversation that happens you know

going on a walk or something it comes back to what we had talked about previously. And to me, that's, um, that's one of the more beautiful parts of what this program has done, at least for, for our family. And please don't think it's perfect. I know there's some families listening going, oh, we can't even get it going. Well, sometimes we can't either. Uh, sometimes it just doesn't happen. I probably for the, by the ways in the Hawes, it happens every night. Perfectly.

Sometimes we call it a common sit down and be quiet. That's what. Come listen to me. That's what. Oh, that is right. You know, I have, I have, uh, seven fantastic sisters, younger sisters, no brothers. So that's, I grew up in a home with seven. No wonder you are so well behaved.

Yeah. Uh, I don't know if they would always, always agree with you, but they've, they've shaped in a home with seven younger sisters. No wonder you are so well behaved. I don't know if they would always, always agree with you, but they've, they've shaped me, you know, try to, they've done their best on me. My sister, one of my sisters just sent a text to the family just yesterday with something that struck her from Joseph Smith history. And I mean, it was just, it was just the boost that, that we all needed. And so little things like that, it can happen in so many ways, as you're saying, Hank, just, it's just part of our lives. And we just make this, we just make this who we are. And it's such a blessing for me. I mean, it was, it was great for our whole family. I want us,

I want us all to be doing more of that. Well, JB, I have a question for you, and this is going to be our last question. So there's a myth out there that the more you know about church history, you want to stay away from it because, man, once you get into that rabbit hole, you'll never come out. You'll lose your testimony. But yet here you are, you know a lot about Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, the history of the church. What has it done for you in your life? Why are you faithful? Why do you stay? Yeah. One thing I appreciate about institutionally that we're seeing these signals from the church is a fearlessness about church history, that there is nothing to be afraid of and there's nothing to hide and that the church is modeling this kind of openness and transparency by all of the resources it's putting out there. And I think we ought to

embrace that fearlessness. I mean, there is nothing we need to worry about because we all know that life is real and that life is complex and that people are complex and that we all know that life is so multi-layered. And so it's thrilling and it's exciting to see that history is the same way. And in the midst of all of that, to see miraculous things happen, undeniably miraculous things happen, to see goodness and accomplishments and things that we just cannot do on our own. We just have to point to say that we were enabled by a power higher than our own. We see that again and again and again. And I see that again and again and again. To quote Richard Bushman, I believe more than ever. I think the more we study, the more we learn about these great saints and the way God worked with them, I believe more than ever that he can work with me

and that he can, he can do for me what he has done for them. And that is to, uh, to make them more than they would be on their own. Oh, see, this is one of those moments where I feel I want to do good. I want to do justly. I want to walk humbly. I feel like my mind is enlightened and I'm filled with joy, right? Right out of section 11, the Lord has told us what that feels like, what that is. I just love the phrase in verse 26 about treasure up in your heart. And it's not just store it there. It's treasure it because it is treasure. It is a treasure. It's valuable beyond anything. This knowledge of God and who we are and of all of his children and how he loves them. So thank you. It's been a great discussion. In my career as a gospel teacher,

the more I learn about Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, I always think to myself, I can't be more impressed. I can't be more impressed. And then I find myself, I'm more impressed. I hope that we as a podcast, there is a fulfillment of evil being spoken about Joseph Smith. There's no doubt about that. But we need to be the fulfillment of good being spoken about Joseph Smith. And I know, JB, you line up with Joseph. Most assuredly and happily so. And I feel so grateful for that. I feel the Brigham Young hallelujah sense to think that we have the restoration.

It is everything to me. What I know about the kind of being that God is and his son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and what kind of potential and what kind of beings we are and our relationship to them, it's the restoration that opens that to all of us. And I feel like shouting hallelujah.

Thank you so much, JB. And John, thank you, of course, for being here as well. Thank you to our listeners for spending the time with us today. And a big thank you to our producer, Steve Sorensen, and our production crew, David Perry and Lisa Spice. We will be back with another episode of Follow Him, so we'll see you again soon.