followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 102-105 Part 2 • Dr. Matthew Godfrey • Sept 15-21 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

Dr. Matthew Godfrey continues with D&C 102-105, highlighting how Zion’s Camp and the dissolution of the United Firm tested the early Saints’ faith, ultimately preparing future Church leaders and demonstrating that God’s promises are fulfilled through abiding growth rather than immediate triumph.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTS English: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC238EN French: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC238FR German: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC238DE Portuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC238PT Spanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC238ESYOUTUBE: https://youtu.be/EVXp3ynQFXwALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTES followHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKS New Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBook Old Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBook Book of Mormon: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastBMBook  WEEKLY NEWSLETTER https://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletter  SOCIAL MEDIA Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODES00:00 Part 2 - Dr. Matthew Godfrey01:56 The Church destroyed?03:48 The Lord and Church prevails07:44 Elder Uchtdorf and experiencing a different outcome09:18 After much tribulation13:15 Vienna Jaques17:48 Debt in Kirtland22:19 Treasure in Heaven: The John Tanner Story and stewardships27:27  A willing heart and a willing mind28:32 What happens to the United Firm?31:37 Be humble, be humble, be humble33:48 Zion’s Camp Expedition38:05 Sylverster Smith mirrors many of us?40:56 Joseph throws a horn45:28 Zion’s Camp disbanded48:40 Striving or like Sylvester51:15 Spiritual strength or muskets54:08 Zion’s Camp a failure?57:58 Long-standing benefits of Zion’s Camp1:00:09 Wilford Woodruff’s journal 1:02:39 Difficult mission blessings1:06:33 God knowing we are willing1:08:25 What is God trying to tell me?1:13:25 End of Part 2 - Dr. Matthew Godfrey Thanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika: Portuguese TranscriptsHeather Barlow: Communications DirectorSydney Smith: Social Media, Graphic Design "Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome back to Part 2 with Dr. Matthew Godfrey, Doctrine and Covenants 102 to 105. I wanted to also touch a little bit on what the Lord says in verses 6 and 7, because I think this gets at what we were talking about earlier with expectations. Verse 6, the Lord says, Behold they shall, for I have decreed it, talking about the saints, begin to prevail against mine enemies from this very hour. and by hearkening to observe all the words which I the Lord their God shall speak unto them they shall never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet

and the earth is given under the saints to possess it forever and ever so the Lord tells them okay from this very hour so from February 24th 1834 you will begin to prevail against your enemies and you will not cease to prevail until I come again and the earth is given to you. Now, I think some people could look at that and could look at church history and say, well, that didn't happen. I mean, they didn't get their land back. Spoiler alert, sorry if none of you know this, but they don't get their Jackson County land back. And we can talk about that in a minute. They don't get their land back. They end up getting kicked out of Clay County in 1836. Then they end up getting kicked out of the entire state. state of Missouri in 1838. They build a new community in Navu. They end up getting kicked out of Navu in 1846. They come over to the Great Basin. Things are better here, but they still find

a lot of difficulty because of their practice of plural marriage. You could look at that and say, well, how do they begin to prevail against their enemies from 1834 on? It looks to me like their enemies were prevailing against them. But I think it depends on how you look at it. A couple things that I was thinking about with this was number one, was the church ever destroyed by its enemies? No, it's not. In fact, it continues to grow and prosper despite its enemies, and it continues to grow

and prosper today. And then think as well that after this revelation is given in February of 1834, the church finishes and dedicates the Kirtland Temple in 1836. They build the Navu Temple, which, beginning in 1845, they begin to offer the endowments in the Navu Temple. Over in the Great Basin, they build the St. George, Salt Lake, Mantai, and Logan temples. The work continues to proceed. It made me think of the words of Joseph Smith, that the work of the Lord rolls forth boldly, nobly, and independent. I think when the Lord's saying that the saints will prevail against their enemies, he's not saying that the church or its members would not have any setbacks in their lives, but that the church

would continue to grow, would continue to fill its mission of preaching the gospel to those who are living and redeeming those who have passed on. It would continue to roll forward as that stone cut out of the mountain that Daniel prophesied about until the Lord comes again to the earth. We have seen the fulfillment of that, that even though there have been setbacks at times, periodic setbacks, that the church continues to grow, the gospel continues to be spread throughout the earth. We have so many temples now on the earth. It's remarkable. Sometimes we can look at things and say, well, that didn't turn out the way that I think it was supposed to turn out. But when you look at it a little more deeply, it's like, well, actually it did turn out. A few weeks back,

we had President Steve Lund of the Young Men's General Presidency and talked about the numbers. Things are going well. Is there opposition? Absolutely. But things are going, we're prevailing. Yeah. Matt, this is pretty critical. I've had friends say, in my patriarchal blessing, it says this.

That hasn't happened. What I think you're saying here is, well, one, wait. to try to see it. Maybe it's not happening the way you saw it in your head or what you think that means. For example, over and over in the Book of Mormon, the Lord says, if you keep my commandments, you'll prosper in the land. I have an idea of what prospering looks like. But I don't think he and I have the same definition of prosper.

To him, prosper probably means, oh, you're going to become more like me. If you keep my commandments, you're going to become more like me. and that takes a lot of growth and difficulty. And I'm thinking, no, no, no, prosper means I get that 2025 forward F-150. That's what prosper. That's prosper in the land. Right. So, Matt, I think both those principles wouldn't they hold true?

One, be patient. And two, be open to other, what would you say? Be open to other. Look at it from different perspectives. Be open to other avenues where that. might be those promises actually the Lord says I did fulfill those yeah take a look at it from this point of view I hope that everyone out there listening can look back and say that didn't turn out the way I thought but that was actually better I'm hoping all of us have had an

experience like that where I thought it was this but it turned out the Lord had something even better in mine if not look for one look for one I bet you'll find one I think a perfect example of this, John, we've talked about, Luke 24. Two disciples, leaving Jerusalem. Jesus has died. Obviously, they were wrong. He said he was the Messiah. He wasn't. He was actually killed by the Romans. Not only did he not beat the Romans, the exact opposite happened. They killed him. They're leaving. Jesus is with them. He says, what's going on? Why are you so sad? Well, we thought that this prophecy would be fulfilled. It obviously wasn't.

And then the Lord says, let's look at it differently. Let's walk through the scriptures together and show you that actually this was fulfilled in the exact way he said. I think it's the same idea what Matt just taught us. You will begin to prevail against your enemies from this very hour. There could be some who say, oh, that obviously didn't happen. Look at this. But then Matt says, well, look at it this way. Yeah, they have from that time prevailed against their enemies until today.

And I'm thinking of before the events of the trial and the crucifixion of Jesus, when the triumphal entry, he comes in. Why are they waving palm branches? This is the guy. This is the guy that's going to redeem Israel politically. He's going to come and throw off the Romans. Even Peter gets out his sword, takes off the high priest's servant's ear. Does he think, all right, here we go. But Jesus is like, we have a lot tougher enemies than the Romans like death and sin.

I will conquer that for the whole world. So, wow, okay, that's a better outcome than I even expected. It's an interesting point of, what did you call it, Matt, Patience? and watch for the different outcome than you expected, and it might even be better. How about this story from President Uttorff? Continue in Patience, April 2010. I remember when I was preparing to be trained as a fighter pilot, we spent a great deal of our preliminary military training in physical exercise.

I'm not exactly sure why endless running was considered such an essential preparatory part of becoming a pilot. Nevertheless, we ran and we ran and we ran some more. As I was running, I began to notice something that frankly troubled me. Time and again, I was being passed by men who smoked, drank, and did all manner of things that were contrary to the gospel, and in particular to the word of wisdom. I remember thinking, wait a minute, aren't I supposed to be able to run and not be weary? But I was weary, and I was overtaken by people who are definitely not following. the word of wisdom. I confess it troubled me at the time. I asked myself, was the promise true, or was it not? The answer didn't come immediately. But eventually I learned that God's promises

are not always fulfilled as quickly as or in the way we might hope. They come according to his timing and in his ways. Years later, I could see clear evidence of the temporal blessings that come to those who obey the word of wisdom. Years later. Years later, I saw that God actually did fulfill those promises. Thanks for that, Matt. That is very helpful. The Lord also emphasizes

just a couple of verses later. This is the theme of the Come Follow Me lesson. Verse 12, he says, after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, comeeth the blessing. It is sometimes that we have to suffer through things. We have to wait. We have to be patient in tribulation and trials before we see the blessing come. For myself, I've read that before and thought,

oh, why can't the Lord bless me without the tribulation? But I think it's sometimes in the tribulation that we see more of his hand in our life. At least that's the way it was for Zion's camp, that when they're making this journey to Missouri and they're walking so much, they're walking as much as 40 miles a day and sometimes they don't have very much food and sometimes they don't have very much water and then cholera breaks out among them. Several people die. There's tribulation that's going on for them, but almost to a person, those members of Zion's camp that remembered and later wrote about their experience said, God was with us. This is where I really came to know how much God loved me.

That's so interesting that it was in the journey, it was in the tribulation that they came to that realization. Think of Joseph of Egypt. Here's all these dreams. This is what you're going to become. Not the exact opposite thing happens. But in that tribulation, he becomes. this person that can receive the blessing later.

So could I say that sometimes the tribulation prepares me to become the person that will recognize and accept that blessing when it comes? Yeah. For Joseph, it's like, oh, here comes Potipher's wife. I keep the law of chastity and what do I get? Three more years in prison. All right. This is great.

That's a good example, too, of how sometimes in the. scriptures and you see it too in movies too where the time frames are always condensed so it seems like oh this person struggled for two days then ah everything got better after that but i mean you look at joseph in how many years he was in prison and suffered through what he suffered before he became what he became that was a long time i think about that sometimes when i'm going through a trial or when I'm not seeing a blessing that I think should be coming, I think, you know what? Sometimes it takes a long time.

I don't know why it has to take a long time, but sometimes it just does. And that's okay. Matt, I'm sure you've already heard this. I shared this when Sister Emily Ut, one of your colleagues, when she was here, here is 1882. Now, think of the events of last year with the church purchasing the Curtland Temple and a lot of the Navu sites. 1882.

John Taylor. As a people or community, we can abide our time. But I will say to you, Latter-day Saints, there is nothing of which you have been despoiled by oppressive acts or mobocratic rule, but that you will again possess, or your children after you. Your rights in Ohio,

your rights in Jackson, Clay, Caldwell, and Davies County in Missouri, will yet be restored to you. Your possessions of which you have been fraudulently dispoiled in Missouri and Illinois, you will again possess that without force or fraud or violence. The Lord has a way of his own in regulating such matters. That's great. And it took how long we can be patient,

but the Lord's promises are always fulfilled. All right, Matt, what do we do next? much of the rest of section 103 deals with how the saints were supposed to redeem Zion verses 22 and 23 already said how the Lord tells Joseph that he is the servant in the parable of the vineyard verse 22 he says therefore let my servant

Joseph Smith Jr. say into the strength of my house my young men in the middle aged gather yourselves together under the land of Zion upon the land which I've bought with money that has been consecrated unto me. Let all the churches send up wise men with their monies and purchase lands even as I have commanded them. There's two things that are going on here. So the Lord's saying first of all that Joseph needs to call up the strength of his house to go to the land of Zion, then verse 23 saying members of the church need to donate money so that more land can be purchased in Jackson County.

Because the idea was if the church could purchase more land there, if they could become a more significant strength, then they would have the ability to withstand any attempts to drive them off their lands. Now, this thing with sending up wise men with their monies and purchase lands, it also has application to funding Zion's camp. The rest of the revelation talks about how Joseph Smith and other church leaders are supposed to go. They're supposed to recruit people to participate in Zion's camp, the Lord says, you need to recruit 500. If you can't get 500, 400, 400, 300. If you can't get 400, 300, 200. If you can't get 300, 200, but make sure you at least get 100, because if you can't get 100, then don't do it.

So he tells them to recruit, and then he also tells them to solicit donations from people so that they can fund this expedition to Missouri to go help the Saints there. there are people who are instrumental in donating money for this. In verse 23, I like reading it as saying, and let all the churches send up wise men and wise women with their monies, because some of the people who donated for the good of the church during this time were women. Vienna Jakes is one, who donated a sizable amount of money, which helped with the construction of the Kirtland Temple, which helped with the development of Zion. But another one specific to Zion's camp

was another woman from Boston. Vienna was from Boston too. And there was another woman there whose name was Mary Vos. She went by the name of Polly. And Polly was a single sister living in Boston. She had been baptized by Worsen Hyde and Samuel Smith when they were preaching in Boston in 1832.

And in 1834, Pauley was, 54 years old. She was single. She worked as an upholsterer in Boston. That's what she did for a living. She decided that she needed to donate to Zion's camp so that this expedition could continue. Now, according to Wilford Woodruff, he said that as Zion's camp is gathering as the men are gathering in Curtland before departing, he said that Joseph Smith talked with several men about how they still needed more money to outfit the expedition. He said they had not means to bear their expenses from there to Missouri. But Wilford said, Joseph Smith wasn't worried about it.

He said, I am going to have some money soon. The very next morning, Joseph received a letter from Pauly Vos in which there was $150 that she was donating to Zion's camp. Now, this amount, $150 was actually half of the amount that the entire church donated for Zion's camp. They only got $300 in donations. Half of it came from Pauly Bose. I like to consider Polly as a wise woman, one of these people that the Lord was talking about in verse 23. Thank you for sharing that.

I'd love hearing things like that. Yeah. I wonder if she thought in 2025. They're going to be talking about me for this. Thank you, Sister Vos. Yeah. The church does not have a lot of money at this period of time. In fact, the church is in debt.

There's so much debt that the church has that Joseph Smith isn't sure that he's actually going to be able to go to Missouri, like he said. He worries that he's going to have to stay behind in Curtland because of some of the debts that the church has there. So this is where Section 104 comes into play. This is where we get to the financial portion of the discussion. Very interesting and intriguing stuff. But just as some background to this, in 1832, Joseph Smith had set up an organization called the United Firm. This was an organization that coordinated the church's publishing efforts in independence, as well as the church's mercantile efforts.

And when we talk about mercantile efforts, we're talking about two stores. We're talking about the store that Newell K. Whitney had in Curtland, Ohio. Newell was a businessman. He had a store that he operated there. And then we're also talking about a store that Sidney Gilbert established in Independence, Missouri. Both of these stores function as a storehouse for the poor. They're a place where poor people are supposed to be able to come and get goods when they can't pay for them. but they also sold goods out of the store as well to people in the surrounding areas.

So they had that dual function. The United Firm is set up to coordinate those two stores, their operation, as well as the church's printing office in Independence that William W. Phelps runs. By 1834, the United Firm is in some pretty precarious financial conditions because of debt. And a lot of it has to do with the Saints' expulsion from, Jackson County. When they're kicked out of Jackson County, they no longer have the printing office, and they no longer have Sydney Gilbert's store, but they're still in debt for goods that are in Sydney Gilbert's store. They're still in debt from trying to get the printing

operation and independence off the ground, too. And they also have mounting debts in Kirtland because they're trying to construct the Kirtland Temple at this time, which requires quite a bit of money, and they're still trying to stock Newell-K. Whitney's store as well. After making attempts to raise money to pay off these debts, the United Firm meets on April 10, 1834. The members of the firm decide that the firm should be dissolved, and each one have their stewardship set off to them. At the time, there were 11 members of the United Firm. Joseph Smith was one of them, and there were other church leaders who were involved in this. They decide on April 10th, we need to dissolve this firm.

We need to divide up the assets that it has to different people who are in the firm that they can operate as their stewardship. And I think the thinking was that maybe by doing this, then individuals could become responsible for individual debts rather than the members of the United firm being responsible for the collective debt of the entire firm. About two weeks after this, Joseph Smith receives Section 104 in the Doctrine and Covenants. And this revelation puts into effect what these people had already decided to do. The Lord tells them in this revelation that it's okay for the United Firm to disband. He assigns the different stewardships of the United Firm to different people, different members of the United Firm. So that's all what this revelation is about. It's the assigning of those stewardships to different people.

When the United Firm is disbanded, now that Joseph Smith isn't necessarily responsible for the entire debt of the firm, he feels that he's on a little bit firmer ground where he can go and still lead the Zion's Camp expedition to Missouri. That's how this section connects to Zion's Camp. It's because it allows Joseph Smith to be able to lead the Zion's Camp. Camp Expedition. Oh, that's so interesting. Okay. The Lord's people always have to deal with their own finances and debt and the church, too, has to deal with finances and debt because we live on planet Earth. Yeah, exactly. John, Matt, I doubt this is in the part copy version of the Come Follow Me Manual because you can't click on it. But if you go to the electronic version online,

If you scroll down, there's a video, our friend T.C. Christensen put together years ago called Treasure in Heaven, the John Tanner story. It's about 20 minutes. It is wonderful. It's the story of John Tanner and how he blessed the saints in paying off their debts, the saints and Joseph. 20 minutes, absolutely worth your time with your family. Take time for it. It's excellent. One of the things that I love about Section 104 is this idea of stewardship. When you look at verses 11 and 12, where the Lord tells them, it is wisdom and me, therefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall organize yourselves and appoint every man his stewardship,

that every man may give an account unto me of the stewardship which is appointed unto him. Now, of course, this has a very specific meaning at the time, because it does deal with the different assets of the United Fir, and how they were given to. I think when I read these verses, it makes me wonder, what's my stewardship? How can I, in this stewardship, give an account of it? How can I faithfully pursue whatever my stewardship may be? I think we each have gifts that the Lord has given to us to bless others. We each have different responsibilities in the church, different callings in the church. It makes me wonder, how am I using those gifts to accomplish my responsibilities or my stewardship?

My father liked to tell the story of a seminary teacher in Idaho who had a class one year, and there was a student in there that was a pretty unruly student. He frequently disrupted the class. A lot of times didn't seem like he really wanted to be there. was one of those students that sometimes teachers struggle with in a class. This teacher decided that he was going to try to befriend the boy, try to get to know him a little better, and see if that would help improve the situation.

He found out that the boy really liked cars. He had a car that needed repair, and he'd invite the boy over to help him repair this car and kind of get to know him a little bit better through that. he also found out that the boy liked boxing he liked watching boxing matches so he actually took him to a boxing match tried to take interest in in what the boy was doing the behavior didn't improve after all of these efforts the boy was still disruptive in class still couldn't really make much headway there this poor teacher thinks i've made no difference in this boy's life i've tried all these different things I become friends with them. It doesn't help. Well, one morning, early in the morning, it's about 4 a.m. He gets a call. His telephone rings, and he answers it.

It's this boy. He says, my mom just passed away. I'm wondering if you could come and be with me and my father at this time. So he said, of course, I can do that. So he drove over to the boy's house, and he went in there, the father was inconsolable, sobbing, didn't know what to do. As this teacher walked in and sat on the couch, this teenager walked over to him and just hugged him. And this wonderful seminary teacher just held him for a minute. And the boy said, Dad, we'd like brother so-and-so to speak in mom's funeral, wouldn't we?

Because he knows about the gospel, and he knows about the good things in life. So this teacher realized at that time that even though he thought he hadn't made much of a difference in this boy's life, he really had. For me, that is a great lesson of a stewardship, of someone really trying to fulfill that, stewardship, doing so in a way that blessed someone's life, even if it seemed like he hadn't made much headway. That probably happens a lot in this church where we think, I made no difference whatsoever in my years in this calling. And then we find out something was going on that we didn't see.

We made a profound difference. Yeah. And it goes back to what we mentioned before, that it's the willingness to do things. if we're willing to try, even if we're a minister and we seem like we're not doing much, if we make the effort, if we're willing to do something, that's when the blessings can come, both in our lives and in the lives of those that we minister to. Is it Section 64? By the Lord, require the heart and a willing mind.

I always love to point out that we are always invited to be willing because we're not able to perfectly do things. God is able, but we can be willing. We're willing to take upon us the name of Christ and willing to keep his commandments. At what you just shared there, it helps that verse where the Lord says, you're going to give me an account of your stewardship. It makes it not as scary where maybe the Lord says, no, look at all the good you did, not look at all what you didn't do. Yeah. I love that because I think that's probably how it's going to be. It's not always how I picture it. Because I picture it more as getting up there in the Lord saying, well, you didn't do that and you didn't do that and you didn't do that. But I think it'll be more,

look at the good that you did, even if you didn't think you were doing much. That sounds like him. Yeah. Yeah. Matt, does the United firm ever come back after this? It does not. The United firm is disbanded. There's an element of the United firm, the literary firm, which in Section 70, the Doctrine and Covenants, it talks about setting up stewards over the revelations. It appoints six men to be those stewards. So those stewards made up the literary firm. The literary firm appears to have continued in some form for a few years after this. They're able to get printing office established in Curtland, Ohio, and to get a new printing press there where they start publishing the messenger and advocate, and they

publish the doctrine and covenants. But the United firm as a whole, after this is disbanded, it appears that much of the coordination of those mercantile and publication efforts occurred among the Curtland High Council rather than with the United firm. I can see why they would be disappointed and confused. We set this up. It was supposed to be build Zion.

The Lord's going to come again. None of that worked out. I've had those experiences in my life where I feel like, hey, I'm doing things that I'm supposed to do and it's not working out. It can be tough to deal with, but I think you have to remember what we've already talked about. You have to remember patience that the Lord has his own timetable. You have to remember that at some point he will fulfill those blessings. God's not a liar. If he promises something, it will be fulfilled.

that it may take some time. Instead of saying, well, maybe it's six months. Well, maybe it's another year away. Well, maybe it's another year away. It might be easier to surrender. Lord, I trust you. Whether it's six months away or 60 million years away, I trust you. I had the old in due time clause in my patriarchal blessing.

Regarding my marriage, which it was longer. than most, but it was there. So I just thought, I keep trying to do what I'm supposed to do, be where I'm supposed to be, and then the Lord's due time, something will happen. I really think, too, that it's when you can accept that and say, okay, it'll happen when it happens. It's in the Lord's time. That's really when the peace comes, at least that's been my experience, that when I'm worried about, well, why isn't it happening? And maybe I'll give it another four months, and then the four months come, and it doesn't happen. It doesn't bring any time. It doesn't bring any peace. It just brings anxiety and concerns. If you're able to surrender your will to the Lord,

that's when the peace comes. Yeah, I notice he says in verse 15, it is my purpose to provide for my saints. All things are mine. But it must needs be done in my way. Great verse. Yeah, that's awesome. I noticed at the end of 104, the Lord repeats, be humble, be humble. be humble. Maybe he can tell they're struggling. I don't think how they could be anything but humble. Everything's going wrong. I would love to see what kind of pride they had because nothing's going right. Now, they could be angry. Maybe. Yeah. Some of it too, there were members of the United firm that Joseph had said were covetous with the property of the firm, and he specifically pointed to William W. Phelps and Sidney Gilbert that William regarded the printing press as

his, not the churches, and that Sidney Gilbert was concerned about distributing goods to the poor because he didn't know how he was going to pay for the other goods. So I think that might be some of what the Lord's referring to at the end when he's talking about be humble and trust in me that everything's going to be okay. That's tough. Yeah. I could see myself being concerned with, wait, what? Oh, yeah. You know how we're instructed to pray for our enemies? I really like this choice of words right here in verse 81. Therefore, write speedily to New York, right according to that which shall be dictated by my spirit. And I will soften the hearts of those to whom you are in debt. That idea of someone's given you a

hard time, someone's bullying you, whatever, I love that verbiage. Lord, will you please soften their heart? There are some things we just can't do, but he can. I love that wording there. It's something we can ask for. The hearts will be softened. I mean, I used that language when we're looking at world events, anger and war and contention. Oh, Lord. will you soften hearts around the world so that it doesn't have to be like this. Yeah. We have another section here, 105. I love this one because sometimes I like to see, where was this revelation given?

This one says, fishing river. Yeah. Is this the only time? This revelation's given in Missouri. It's at the tail end of Zion's camp. Let's just talk for a minute about the Zion's Camp expedition. We've already talked about how in Section 103, Joseph's commanded to recruit people to accompany him to Missouri.

He and several other church leaders go throughout the eastern United States to New York, to other places to try to recruit people for Zion's camp. There's actually two contingents of Zion's camp. One leaves from Kirtland, the other one leaves from Michigan territory. Hiram Smith and Lyman White had gone to Michigan territory to recruit saints there. The two contingents will join up in Missouri eventually, but it's important to remember

that it's not just saints coming from Kirtland, but there is a small group that comes from Michigan as well. Now, if you remember in Section 103, the Lord said, what's the bare minimum that you need to get for you to do this? He says it's 100. Well, when the first contingent leaves Kirtland

on May 5, 1834, there's 120 people. You can tell that the saint kind of scraped by the bare minimum. That's going to be important for a couple of verses that come up in Section 105 that we'll talk about. But this contingent leaves from Kirtland, the other one leaves from Michigan. Parley P. Pratt is actually directed to continue to recruit people along the way. Eventually, there's about 230 people who are in the science camp that go with Joseph Smith, and they're marching to Missouri to try to help the saints there.

When you look at Section 103, again, this gets to expectations. Some of the language that the Lord uses in Section 103 portrays this as a militant thing, that there's going to be this army that's going to go forth, and they're going to redeem Zion by power. We read that sometimes, and we think that Joseph was getting together a group that was going to go in and retake their Jackson County lands by force. But that's not what Joseph Smith had in mind for Zion's camp. This was the plan for Zion's camp.

Joseph was going to get this group of people together. They were going to march to Missouri. When they got to Missouri, they were going to petition Daniel Dunklin, who was the governor of Missouri, to call out the state militia. When the Missouri State Militia was called out, the militia would accompany the Saints back to their lands in Jackson County so that they could be there safely. Now, because the governor couldn't keep the militia mustered indefinitely, when the militia disbanded after taking the Saints back to their land, the members of Zion's camp were going to remain in Jackson County to protect the Saints from being driven off their lands again.

There's no inclination in Joseph's mind that we're going to go, and this group of people is going to retake these lands by force. They were armed when they went to Missouri, but they were armed because they feared they were going to get attacked by people, so they needed to have a way to defend themselves. But the whole thing kind of rests on Daniel Dunklin being willing to call up the state militia. They go through Ohio, they go through Indiana, they go through Illinois, finally. They get into Missouri. It's a lot of walking. I mentioned before. Some people said they walked as much as 40 miles a day. Heber C. Kimball talks about how some people had like new boots that they were going to wear. They purchased these boots to walk to Missouri. Well, if any of you have purchased new shoes and then gone on a hike, you know that that doesn't end well. Heber C. Kimball talks about some people getting blisters on their feet, the blisters breaking. and then they're squelching in blood in their boots as they're walking along. Not very pleasant conditions. They didn't have a lot of money to outfit the expedition.

You'll remember I said the church itself only donated $300, which was not enough for goods and supplies for the expedition. So actually the members of Science Camp consecrated their own money into a general fund to help pay for Science Camp. Not only are they sacrificing their time, but they're sacrificing money as well so that they have the goods that they need to go to Missouri. The journey is not pleasant. At times they don't have very much food. There's times when they're crossing prairies where there's not much water.

Most people deal with these things in a fairly decent way, but you do have some people on the journey who begin to complain about it, which I totally get. sympathize with because if it was me, I hate to say it, but I think I may have been one of the murmurs along the way, just what are we doing? Why can't we have enough food and whatever else? But one of these was Sylvester Smith, who was actually a member of the Curlund High Council. Again, there's another connection to the Curlund High Council. But Sylvester pretty much complained the entire trip. He had frequent run-ins with people on science camp. I feel for Sylvester, because I'm sure he's tired.

I'm sure he's hungry most of the time. I know how I act when I get tired and hungry. Hangary. Yeah, maybe if he just had had a Snickers bar along the way, then he would have been better. But there's different incidents that occur. He gets mad because Joseph Smith has a dog with him that barks at him. Sylvester doesn't like that so he gets in an argument with Joseph Smith about that on one occasion Parley P. Pratt has come back to the camp and he doesn't have any food for dinner

so Parley asked Sylvester if he'd share some of his bread with him and Sylvester says no he's not going to share his bread and Joseph chastises him for that there's another occasion where he complains about what's happening in the camp and kind of gets people worked up Joseph says, because of the spirit that's in this camp, you're going to see some difficulties. And according to Heber C. Kimball, the next morning the camp wakes up, and all of their horses are lame. And they're so lame that it's hard to get them to go to the river to get water. So Joseph says, you need to just humble yourselves, you need to pray. And if you do that, then your horses will be okay.

So they do that and they pray about it. And Hebercy Kimball then says, and every horse was healed thereafter, with the exception of Sylvester Smith's horse, which died. That's awful. Sylvester's having a hard time. There's one time where he's complaining to Joseph, and I think Joseph is just frustrated with Sylvester and throws the camp bugle at Sylvester. Later, some people will say, no, no, he didn't throw the bugle at Sylvester. He just threw it on the ground and then it bounced and hit Sylvester, but I think he threw it at Sylvester because Sylvester kind of had it coming to him. But anyway, all of this happens.

They finally get to Missouri, and they send Parley P. Pratt and Orson Hyde to go to Governor Dunklin to request that he call up the state militia. And when they get there, Governor Duncanlin says, no, I'm not going to do that. they're not just doing this out of a pipe dream. There have been some communication that they'd had with the state government before that made Joseph Smith confident that Dunklin would call up the militia. But once they get there, he says, no, I'm not going to do that. This is a big wrench in their plans, because that was kind of the key part. But even with this, Moses Martin, one of the participants of the camp,

says that after they hear this news, they continued on their way. Joseph thought, okay, this isn't going the way that we wanted to, but we're going to keep going. They run into problems with people along the way before the Revelation, Section 105 is given. They come to Fishing River. While they're at Fishing River, there's a group of five men that come into their camp. They say, just so you know, you're going to see hell before morning. They said there's a group of a few hundred men who are just across the river, we're going to come attack you this evening,

we're going to basically kill all of you. Now, I don't know how you deal with something like that when you have people threatening you like that. But right after the group leaves the camp, again, this is according to Heber C. Kimball's recollection, he says he noticed that there was like a black spot in the sky that gradually got bigger and bigger and bigger until finally the entire sky,

is black with clouds and this horrific thunderstorm is unleashed. There's lightning, there's thunder, there's hail. There's so much rain, according to Hebertsy Kimball, that he said that fishing river rose to 40 feet. You know, it had just been a few inches before, but it rose 40 feet because of the amount of rain that was produced. So that prevented this mob from crossing the river and attacking the camp. Many camp members thought that this was God's hand, that God had provided this storm so that they wouldn't be attacked. The great Lisa Spice will put this in our show notes. There is a film that was made for seminary called Zion's Camp. And you can find it on the church's website. We'll link it up there. I don't know how long it is. It's not too long, but it's a great

little video of what Matt just talked about. They find an abandoned church or something. in old church and they're all lying on the pews singing hymns and doesn't joseph say god is in this storm is that yep there's one reminiscence that talks about joseph saying god is in this storm most people that remember the storm say that was truly god's hand protecting us at that time who was it that said when jehovah fights they would rather be absent is this the occasion it is but they didn't use such polite language when they said that You see the Lord's hand in this, but even though this mob is prevented from attacking, just a couple of days later, there's another group that comes in to the camp.

This group isn't as belligerent as the other one, but they tell Joseph, they say, look, just so you understand the situation here, there's about 500 people who have gathered in Jackson County across the river. And if you cross the river with this group, they will attack you. There will be bloodshed. You just need to understand that going into this. Joseph tells them, look, we only have peaceful intentions here. We're not planning on attacking anyone.

We're just trying to help our fellow saints, and we're trying to get the land back that was taken from them. But we're not going to attack anybody for this. We want to do this peacefully. The group leaves. The next day, June 22nd, Joseph Smith, receives the revelation that's Section 105 in the Doctrine and Covenants. In this revelation, the Lord essentially tells the members of Zion's camp, I'm grateful for your sacrifice, it's no longer required of you to redeem Zion. Shortly after this, the camp begins to disband.

As they're disbanding, there is a cholera outbreak that occurs among them. Cholera had been a disease that had been traveling along the water, ways of the United States since 1832. It afflicts many members of the camp and actually 13 Latter-day Saints die from this cholera epidemic. Eleven of them were members of Zion's camp. There's two who were church members living in Clay County that are also afflicted at this time and they pass away as well. That's in a nutshell what happens with Zion's camp. But I think it's a good backdrop to talk about some of these verses that we have in section 105. Again, the first part of the revelation, the first nine verses, the Lord is talking about

the saints, some transgressions of the saints. He says in verse two, behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people? Speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now, meaning the saints in Missouri. But behold they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands but are full of all manner of evil and do not impart of their substance as become a saints to the poor and afflicted among them and are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom. Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom. Otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. Well who's the Lord referring to?

here he says in verse two that he's speaking concerning the church and not individuals what the lord's referring to in these verses is the fact that he set the bare minimum of people going on zion's camp at 100 they eventually had about 230 that went but that's still not even half of what the lord was asking for the 500 that he really wanted to go and again the money people didn't contribute money for the expedition. Joseph Smith and others went among the saints. They only collected $300. So then the members of Zion's camp had to throw in $1,600 to outfit the camp.

The Lord here is really chastising the church and saying, you didn't support this expedition. I commanded Joseph to do this. He went out and tried to get support, and you wouldn't support Zion's camp, monetarily, or with your time. I look at that and I think, well, am I doing the things that I've been counseled to do by our prophets and apostles? Am I striving to help where I can? Am I trying to fulfill the assignments that I've been given in the church, whether it's my calling in the church, whether it's other things that are asked? Oftentimes, I find myself more like Sylvester Smith than I do like Brigham Young or Wilford Woodruff or one of these faithful members of

science camp. Sometimes when I'm asked to take a shift at the church's cannery, or I'm asked to help someone move, my initial reaction is one of complaining. Oh, why do I have to do that? I have too going on today. I shouldn't have to do that. These verses here give me a little pause. They essentially say, again, our willingness to help others, our willingness to serve, those are the principles that the celestial kingdom is built upon. Those are the principles that will build Zion. If I don't correct my own attitude about trying to serve other people in my ward or in my community, then I'm not helping build Zion with that. We have to have the attitude of being willing to serve and of serving in order for Zion truly to be built among us, in our families, in our

wards, and our stakes. There has to be that willingness. Yeah. Section 84, verse 57, we already read this. The Lord says, you'll remain under this condemnation until you repent. It talks about the Book of Mormon, and he says, not only to say, but to do. We talk big. Oh, and it's easy to talk. Sitting in my chapel and my state, it's easy to say cool things. Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to say, yeah, let's all do this. Let's all consecrate. Yeah, and then to actually follow through. I feel for these guys.

So in summary then, we're going to go. We're going to find Governor Dunklin. He's going to give us the militia to help us get our people back on their land. They get there. Governor Duncanclan says no. Then they're kind of like, no, what do we do? And then they have those confrontations. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And then they finally disband. I mean, I could see how I'd be a little bit. Well, that was a disappointment. Yeah, exactly. Also important to point out that Joseph Smith, all the records that we have, he wasn't going to disband Zion's camp.

He wasn't going to give up until he received this revelation. Wow. He told him to do that. When it says, take the strength of my house. Here we go again with expectations. Is that spiritual strength? Is that physical strength? I'll deliver by power.

Is that by muscle? Is that by muskets? Is that by thunderstorms? Now we can think it's this, but it's really this. Matt, how do you become a person who supports, who follows through? Because I'm like you. I do complain. I'm not the first to sign up.

And if I got a blister on the way to the canning assignment, I might say. You know, I got a blister. I got new shoes and I'm staying home. The real interesting thing about that, too, is even though I tend to complain and not want to do it, if I actually will go do it, it's such a great experience. I feel the spirit and I feel so awesome afterwards. That makes me think, why do I have such a hard time going and doing it if I know how I'm going to feel afterward? Hank, when you're saying, how do you become someone that does that? For me, it's trying to focus on how I felt when I have done these things.

If I can focus on that, then it helps me be a little more willing to go and do it. Hank, I've told the young women, I spoke at a young women's camp. If you have a chance to go on a service project with the boys, go. You will learn more about people in a service project. Are you right? Do they work hard or do they hardly work? Are they hovering around the cookie table or are they? Where's another shovel?

Boy, do you learn a lot about people in a service project? Remind me not to go with you to a service project. Yeah, because I'm just watching, making notes for my next talk. I don't want to serve anybody. I just want to use it in a class. Versus 13 and 14 is where the Lord says, it is expediting to me that mine elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion. For behold, I do not require their hands to fight the battles of Zion.

For, as I said in a former commandment, even so will I fulfill, I will fight your battles. Both some of the participants of Zion's camp as well as us today, when we read those verses and we look at Zion's camp, we think one of two things, or maybe we think both of these things. number one the Zion's camp failed and number two why did the Lord make them do this if when they got there he was just going to tell them

never mind you need to be endowed in the temple first because that's what he also tells them in here too is that the redemption of Zion won't come about until you receive the endowment from on high you could have told me that before I left exactly for the first question was Zion's camp a failure Now, if you're looking at it from the perspective of the Saints

were supposed to go and redeem the land in Missouri in Jackson County, move the Saints back onto that land, then I guess, yes, you could say it was a failure because that didn't happen. But to most of the participants of Zion's camp, it was not a failure at all. I already talked a little bit about how many participants in Zion's camps saw this as a key part

in their life, a time when they really truly came to know God, and I think when they came to know themselves and how much they would sacrifice for the gospel. You mentioned Brigham Young. Brigham Young said, When I returned from that mission to Kirtland, a brother said to me, Brother Brigham, what have you gained by this journey?

I replied, just what we went for. I would not exchange this knowledge I have received this season for the whole of Geaga County, which is where Curtlin was located, for property and minds of wealth are not to be compared to the worth of knowledge. What's Brigham saying there? He's saying,

I was able to observe Joseph Smith, how he led, how he organized this camp, and that to me was worth more than anything else. And that has even a greater impact, I think, when you think about when the saints left Navu and were traveling over to the Great Basin, And under Brigham Young's leadership, he organized that expedition almost exactly like

Joseph Smith organized Zion's camp. In fact, one of the reasons why we call Zion's camp today, because originally it was known as the camp of Israel. That's how they referred to it at the time it was happening. Well, we don't call it the camp of Israel anymore because the saints who left Navu and went to the Great Basin, we call them the camp of Israel. That's the name that they took. So then this expedition began to be referred to as Zion's camp to distinguish it from the two.

But it shows just how much Brigham learned from Joseph Smith on this expedition. Knowledge that he wouldn't know it at the time, but ten years later he would be in charge of the church and would have to staff and organize this mass expulsion from Illinois to the Great Basin. Wilford Woodruff, too. He said, I was in Zion's camp with the prophet of God. I saw the dealings of God with him. I saw the power of God with him. I saw that he was a prophet. What was manifest to him by the power of God upon that mission was of great value to me and to all who received his instructions. Those who participated in Zion's camp, most of them didn't consider it a failure. Now there were some who when Joseph said he was going to disband the camp, they were angry about it and thought, well, why did we do this? I don't understand. Was Sylvester one of them? Sylvester was and then Sylvester comes back to Kirtland and he charges Joseph with financial improprieties on the camp of Israel and so there's all this chaos that happens in Kirtland after they return from that. But even with all of that, Joseph still appoints Sylvester as one of the first members of the 70 in February of 1835, which is just astounding to me that even with all that Sylvester did on the expedition and in its aftermath,

Joseph still said, no, you're a worthwhile leader, and I'll have you beat one of the 70. Kind of a remarkable thing. Very remarkable. Is Sylvester in your genealogy, Hank? He's a Smith. Probably. No, but he left me his horse. No, his horse died. That's right.

That's right. His horse died. Yeah. The other thing to consider, and we do talk about this sometimes in the church, that after Zion's camp concludes, February of 1835 is when the first 12 apostles are called, when the first members of the 70 are called. Out of the original 12 apostles that are called in this dispensation, eight of them went with Joseph Smith on science camp. And out of the first 56, members of the 70 who were called, all of them went with Joseph Smith on science camp. When you take that perspective of how did this affect the church later on in the leadership of the church, it had a profound

impact, and it was not a failure at all. Hey, Matt, I have an interest in the British mission when Joseph Smith called the quorum of the 12 to go, and not all of them could go, but was it nine, and they were all members of Zion's camp that went? Did you just say eight? Eight of the original 12 apostles were called. By the time they go to England in 1839, there have been several of those original 12 who had fallen away from the church. They had been replaced by people who had gone on

Zion's camp. So Wilford Woodruff, for example, wasn't one of the original 12, but he's appointed a member of the 12 before they go to England. The same with George A. Smith, he was Joseph's cousin. He was 16 at the time of Zion's camp when he went on the expedition. He eventually becomes a member of the 12 as well. So it extends even beyond the original 12 apostles who who were called. I feel like the British mission was similar to Zion's camp in that it gave them experience this time when they could not talk to Joseph.

They had to operate like as a quorum across an ocean. I feel like that was great for Breggam Young, probably. So Matt, would it be okay to say that Zion's camp showed Joseph and in a way, the Lord, who was willing to step up? And the Lord said, that's my future leadership.

That's the group. For sure, I think Joseph had the opportunity on science camp to observe members of the church, to observe how they reacted to adverse conditions to kind of get to know them better. Because when you think about Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff joined the church in 1833. The first time he saw Joseph Smith was when he came to Cortland before leaving on science camp. He didn't know Joseph at all. Joseph didn't know Wilford at all. but I'm sure they got to know each other on this trip.

Zion's camp was instrumental in forming the quorum of the 12 apostles and the 70. Thank heavens for Wilford Woodruff in keeping a journal, a journal after journal after journal. Yeah, he was such a remarkable person to be able to do that over the course of 60 years, just so faithful in keeping the journal. Yeah, you had three presidents of the church. on Zion's camp. You had Joseph Brigham and Wilford. Wow. You're probably both thinking of that John Wooden quote right now, who was a UCLA basketball coach who said, he said, sports does not

develop character. It reveals it. And I think Zion's camp revealed the character of the way you just said it, Matt, of a lot of these men. Who's willing to, what did you say, Hank, to step it up? Yeah. as will the next service project in your ward i think that also answers the second question that i pose why would the lord make them go part of it was this so that joseph could get to know some of these people better looking at the experiences of people in science camp something that verse 19 says i think is important in section 105 so it says i've heard their prayers and will accept their offering It is expedient in me that they should be brought thus far for a trial of their faith.

I think a lot of times in life, it's in the tribulation, it's in the journey that we grow the most. Some of these people that went on science camp probably had experiences that they wouldn't have had otherwise, probably grew in ways spiritually that they wouldn't have otherwise. This does make me think a little bit on my own mission and something that my patriarchal blessing said about my mission. When I got my patriarchal blessing, I was, I think, 14 years old. It told me about my mission. It said, I promise you that you will have success on your mission.

Well, when I got my mission call, at the age of 19, I was called to the Belgium-on-Twerp mission, which is the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium. I served two years in Belgium. It was super hard. And there were not many people who wanted to talk to us about religion. We'd teach discussions and they'd have problems with tithing or they'd have issues with other things and they wouldn't join the church. By the time I came home from my mission, there was one individual who I had helped teach who got baptized.

and another individual that I had stopped on the street doing street contacting, got their information, and then passed them on to other elders who had been baptized. Those were the only people that I knew of that I had taught who had been baptized. For many, many years, I looked at that promise in my patriarchal blessing, and I thought, how did I have success on my mission? It was a thing that was difficult for me to kind of try to get a handle on. But as I've thought about it more, as I've talked to my parents about it, as I talked to even my mission president about it in later years, my mission definitely was a success for me. And what I mean by that is that I learned the gospel in better ways on my mission than I could have learned had I stayed home.

I learned for myself how important the gospel was for me, that I was willing to sacrifice two years. to do something every day to go out and talk to people, even though most of the time we'd get maybe two people that it'd even want to engage us in conversation. I was still willing to get up every day and go out and do that. But it helped me understand better what the gospel meant to me and my own commitment to it. And I think in that way, it was a success for me,

and it gave me experiences that I wouldn't have had otherwise. When I look at science camp, maybe a lot of people thought about it that way, too, that participated in it, that it didn't have the outcome that they thought it should have had, but that along the journey, they experienced things, they participated in things that helped them grow spiritually in ways that they would not have grown had they not gone on science camp. I was looking at verse nine, in consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is experience. obedient in me, then my elders should wait. I agree with Indigo Mantoya. I hate waiting. That I should wait for little season for the redemption of Zion. Then I like verse 10, that they themselves may be prepared. You could make a list that they may be taught more perfectly and have experience. I mean, this camp of Israel wasn't an experience, wasn't it? No more perfectly concerning their duty and the things which I required their hands.

But then, verse 11, this cannot be brought to pass until my elders are endowed with power from on height, as you mentioned. You can see what the Lord's concerned about. You need to have to experience. You need to be taught more. You need to know what your duty is. You need to wait, which is the hard part. When you brought it verse 9, a trial of their faith, I like Hank that we have talked with other guests about trial and prove are the same kind of word. You're going to be proven.

There's the Dugway proving grounds west of the Great Salt Lake, I think, where they test military stuff. And I've always thought the proving, this is a proving ground. You're getting proven. Matt, it seems that your mission story there, Zion's camp, the Lord might be saying, I already knew you and how good you are. I wanted you to see. how good you are because you come out of that and out of that mission and they come out of Zion's camp saying that really was a blessing because the Lord didn't need to find out if they were willing to go he already knew but they needed to know that they were willing to do it Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham right the Hugh B. Brown statement

Matt let's bridge across the centuries here you've been studying the history of the church Zion's camp for many years we have people listening all over the world. Can you bridge from Zion's camp to those listening who are struggling? For me, when I look at Zion's camp and look at the things that we've talked about today or think a little bit more about those,

there's a lot to be said for not allowing our own expectations to come in the way of our spiritual growth. We're all going to have moments in life where things don't turn out the way that we thought they should have turned out. Sometimes we look at those moments and we say, well, it's because God doesn't love me or because God's not listening to me, God's not aware about me.

Or maybe we may even look at that and say it's because God's not really there. If he was there, then things would have been different. Maybe instead of going that route when things don't turn out the way that we think they should, maybe it would be better to kind of look back and try to change our perspective or at least look at it from a different angle think about okay I thought it should be this way but maybe what was God trying to teach me here

or what was God trying to tell me here or how did this help me grow when we do that then these moments in our lives that we think of as trials that we think of as tribulations we can see more as a blessing, that it's not an angry God trying to punish us for something, but it's a loving Heavenly Father letting us experience something that might be painful in the short term, but in the long term will bring us more blessings than we can imagine.

When we look at these things from that angle, at least for me, it helps me find more peace and more comfort. just to know that God is aware of us, that he knows our circumstances, he knows what we're going through, he mourns with us when we mourn because of the things that we're going through, because of his atonement, the Lord can comfort us in those moments

of difficulty and trial, but that again, he allows those to happen because he knows how they will help us in the long run, that they will benefit us spiritually and help us become more like him, which is what this whole life is about, is becoming more like God and refining our own characters. Matt, you think a lot like Elder Orson F. Whitney, he's quoted in the manual this week.

No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude, and humility, all that we suffer. and all that we endure, especially when we endure it patiently, builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God. And it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation that we gain the education that we come here to acquire and which will make us more like our father and mother in heaven. Great statement. Matt used the word become.

Thinking of Elder Oaks, it's not just what we know. It's not even what we do. It's what we are becoming. Becoming lifelong disciples of Christ. That's the goal. Matt, thank you so much for spending your day with us. It has been so fun. Thanks for having me. Really enjoyed it. Appreciate all that you both are doing to help people understand the scriptures better. We have people like you that can show us things we never would have seen. We would never have known on our own. With that, we want to thank Dr. Matthew Godfrey for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Swanson. Our sponsors, David and Verla, Sornson, in every episode,

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