followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 109-110 Part 2 : Dr. Brent Rogers

Episode Date: September 26, 2021

Dr. Brent Rogers returns and shares the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer and many spiritual manifestations witnessed by the Saints. Additionally, Dr. Rogers shares his testimony of the Savior, his thoughts about the Restoration, and the gathering of Israel.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. I've heard it said, and I don't know if it's true and it's okay if it's not, that the temple itself was actually pretty colorful in that it had a tint of blue on the outside maybe and a dark red roof, like an orangish red roof, which I think would be pretty fun to see, you know, a colorful temple. Yeah, I mean, I think that just speaks to the materials that were available and what they could use. I mean, I think in some, you know, renderings and things like that, it's presented as white and I think that it definitely had more of a bluish gray hue to the walls. And, and yeah, the color is kind of a neat thing. And now, you know, we have,

we have a lot of temples that are built in, you know, more stones or in colors that are more native to the area. And, you know, I just, the one that comes to mind is the Newport Beach temple. That's kind of that, that beautiful reddish color. And I really, I like that idea of this, you know, people often, you know, see pictures of the Kirtland temple today and it's white, but it had the dark, it had the olive green doors, the blue exterior and the red roof. The doors are green again, but they've painted those, right? Yeah. Brent, this is just great to kind of frame the anticipation for this event and everything.

But we do have to get out before the Sabbath. So why don't we go in and look at some of the text of the prayer itself? There's a lot we can jump into here. And maybe I'll start with a few things that jump out at me, and then we can go from there. But I think that it's a beautiful text. There, there's just, there's a lot in it. Um, and there's a lot about, about the gospel that I think is, is wonderful. I mean, just starting in, in verse one that, you know, that, that God is a God who keeps his covenant and, and shows mercy to his people. Um, and I think the, the idea of the God of mercy shows up again, at least once, but

that we know who God is and we know that he is firm and that he is going to keep his end of the bargain and he's going to have mercy on us. And I think that's always a comforting thing to know and to remember and to be reminded of. And that there will be a fulfillment of the promises that have been made to us as people. That's in verse 11. And again, that's because we know that God is a God of his word and keeps His promises.

There's a lot in this that refers to, I think, earlier sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. There's some repetition, if you will, of the description of the house of the Lord in section 88 that we see. It's almost like he's quoting it in verse 6. As thou hast said in a revelation given to us, calling us thy friends, saying, call your solemn assembly. And it seems like he almost goes into a direct quote of section 88 there for a few verses.

Yeah, verse 7, verse 8, yeah. Yeah, this is section 88, 117, 118, 119, 120. That section right there, he quotes word for word almost. It's like, okay, we did what you said. Yeah. Remember how you told us this exact thing?

We did that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's, I think that shows order. It shows order of the way that heaven wants things to work, that we're given these commandments, we're given inspiration, and we're expected to follow that and to be obedient to it. And it's a good thing to show when we have done that. So you say in verse 11, we have a fulfillment of the promises which thou hast made. I just like that idea of, again, a reminder to the people that God is one who keeps his end of the bargain and it's up to us to keep ours when we make covenants.

In verse 20, there's a setting of expectations about the temple. You know, this is that no unclean thing shall be permitted to come into thy house to pollute it. That's still an expectation for us today. And that this prayer of dedication sets forth that expectation with the first temple. And I think that that's really good. I remember when I think it was in section 95 that I kind of made a note, you know, here's the beginnings perhaps of the idea of a temple recommend where the leaders have to somehow try to honor that idea that no unclean thing could come in. That's an interesting,

I don't know where the Lord ever spells it out, do this, but that's, don't you think that's kind of the beginning of that idea? We've got to somehow ensure that no unclean thing comes in here. I always love that the last question in the interview is, do you consider yourself worthy? Yeah, and I think also it doesn't do us a service to people, right? Say I was unworthy to enter the temple. It's not a service to me to let me in at that point, right? I need to prepare myself spiritually. As we've talked about, you prepare yourself and you build, yeah. Yeah, I want to be a disciplined disciple, right? I mean, those are the same words. And so there's some discipline that goes into coming in before you can enter into the Lord's house. So I know if anybody might say, oh, I don't think that's good for the Lord. It is good for the Lord to require some things of us. He does that often.

He raises the bar for us. And if we meet it, we're blessed. I mean, in our strivings. And he helps us do that and tells us how to repent, how to be changed. And he's the one who does it. I mean, yeah, it's an invitation. If I can't pass a Temple Recommend interview feeling good about it, I don't know if I understand how to, it says in verse 21, reverence thee in thy house. To me, that's part of reverencing thee in thy house is this, the idea of doing what is required.

And look at the word, look at the word revere in reverence. I revere thee, you know? Yeah. No, I think that speaks exactly to this, you know, the long history that we talked about with preparing. And it's that spiritual preparation that was important to get to this point for the saints in 1836. And it's what's important for us today to be really ready to go into the temple so that we can feel of the Savior and as it says there, reverence him in his own house. And that's the way that we do that. And I think that coming back to verse 21, where we're at right now, it uses that word or the phrase speedily repent. And the word repent or repentance shows up in this section, I think a handful of times. And I think

that speaks a lot to, you know, just the gospel of repentance and why repenting is so important. And it's, I think, you know, you see it in verse 53, it says, in as much as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful and will turn away thy wrath when thou lookest upon the face of thine anointed. It's saying, hey, it's pretty easy if we really think about it. If we really, really want to be in the presence of the Lord and of our heavenly parents, the repentance is key. I think that part of what we learn in the scriptures about repentance helps that, you know, we must repent. I think Alma says this in Alma seven, we must repent and be born again for the spirit saith, if ye are not born again, you cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Um, and, and so as we talk about why repentance is important and how Christ's atonement and his, him being the, the anointed one to, to be our advocate and to be the mediator.

It's, it's so that he can bring to pass the, the immortality and eternal life of, of humans, right? That we on conditions of repentance can know and live and abide in, in the presence of, of heaven and of God. And so, that's, you know, that I know talks about it in several sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. We read about it often in the Book of Mormon, but the soul that repenteth, how great and how much joy is there in that soul? And that, I think, is really, you can see that in this prayer of dedication, that that is an imploring and encouragement from the Lord

through Joseph Smith in this prayer is that the gospel is a gospel of repentance and repentance is important that you can be made clean and whole. And that's part of our spiritual preparation. I was just going to say, John, what's the quote from Elder Maxwell that you talk about beckoning? Oh, I love to share that. And for those who can see me on video, this is the kind of the international symbol for scolding. Maybe it's international, I don't know. And so I like to do this when I share the quote. The finger point, right? Yeah, you're like naughty, naughty.

It's the finger wagging thing. That's the gesture I'm making. And I'll change when I get to the part in the quote, and you'll know what I do. So Elder Neal A. Maxwell said, when conscience calls to us from the next ridge, it is not solely to scold, but also to beckon. I mean, nobody could put things together like Elder Maxwell, but that idea is you're being invited higher.

I think President Eyring said something similar. Don't be surprised, he said, when you feel the spirit, if it's accompanied by what you feel is a rebuke. There's a little bit of both in there. You can do better than that. Come up higher. I love that idea. It's a beckoning, yeah. To live a better way. I have a better way. Come. And Brent, what you said about repentance, thank you. And it reminded me of the Lord's prayer. If we want to be forgiven, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And I'm looking at verse 50. Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob.

See, sometimes when I'm reading church history, I'm not there. I'm like, send fire upon the wicked mob, right? But look at the prayer. Have mercy upon the wicked mob who have driven thy people that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found. Wow. Your heart's got to be in a good place to be able to say that. Hank, what's that funny story you relate? I can't remember where it is, but in the New Testament where the 12 are like, hey, should we send down fire on these people?

Luke. Yeah. In Luke chapter nine, James and John get offended by a Samaritan village. And the first thing they want to do is blow it up, right? Lord, should we command fire to come from heaven and consume them? And the Lord, no, lord no no no that's not why i came that's our yeah the lord he says i came not to destroy but to save right well and maybe you're right john if you have this that's hard to do uh have mercy on the wicked mob yeah i was looking at verse 22 The blessings that they ask for are just glorious, right? Yeah. The people who come here will leave armed with thy power. Thy name may be upon them, thy glory round about them, and thy angels have charge over them.

That's a beautiful request. And I'm thinking about all the missionaries who have gone forth already, but maybe there's a little bit more when they leave with power from this house. Is that fair? Yeah. And I think that speaks to that long promise endowment of power that, you know, in this moment, praying for, for that, um, and what unfolds over the, the hours and days after the dedication is, is that, uh, receiving of the Lord's endowment of power that is in this case specific to missionary work and to, uh, arming the, the, you arming the preachers of the church to go out and to be able to teach the gospel. And I think that's exactly what is being prayed for there. And another reason why we get that sense that the Lord was so anxious that they get this done.

It'll bless you. It'll bless your missionary efforts, you know. We were way up in 53 about repentance. Hey, I have an interesting theological, not as much a point, but a question, but a point. Look at verse 42 and look, I've underlined all the holy fathers that they are using that term to address God. And then look at verse 42.

Yeah, O Jehovah. Yeah. And I remember Robert J. Matthews was just explaining they were not as, I can't remember the word he used. They didn't make the distinction as much as we do now. And, you know, they're one. We believe that. We believe they're one in purpose. And so, interestingly, though, they mention Jehovah here.

But in verse 4, Holy Father in the name of Jesus Christ. So, interesting that we're now more formally been reminded, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son. Well, the entire, I mean, as I'm looking from 24 through the next 20 or 30 verses, there's this idea of we don't want our enemies to be destroyed, right? Look at verse 43. We delight not in the destruction of our fellow men. Their souls are precious before thee. But they do ask, go back to 29. We ask the Holy Father to confound and astonish and bring shame and confusion to all those who have spread lying reports abroad over the world against thy servants if they will not repent.

So there is a, we don't want our enemies to be destroyed, but we don't want them to be successful either. We want this, we want our, you know, the work to roll forth. There's a beautiful little dichotomy there of we want people to repent, but we want to succeed in our work. church because as long as people are creating those, uh, those reports about them, it is going to make it harder for them to, to really teach the gospel and to teach the people about the work that, that they believe they've been sent there to do. Right. Brent, as a historian, do you see that today at all? Lying and slanderings?

Yeah, I mean, there's the thing about, I would say the thing about history and about, you know, the way that the church is kind of written about today is it's, it's hard because you have, you know, social media allows for such a variety of different voices and, and maybe interpretations and viewpoints. And there's such a gradation of the way that, that it's talked about, you know, the church, the way that the church and its teachings and policies and people are discussed. But when it comes to the history, I think that's a harder one because there's things

that, you know, we learn as we go more about the history, but there are things that are used by people for, I would say, for ill against the church. There are people who use history to try to promote aspects of the church and history can be very malleable. And so, I don't know if, you know, I don't know. I think it's more in the presentation and interpretation of the history than maybe it is in the falsehoods or lying, if you want to call it those same words that Joseph used in this section. The purpose of using it. I just. You can almost hear his frustration in verse 30, the end of the lying and the slander, right? That's got to be frustrating for him to have to combat all of these. It's hard enough just teaching the gospel to people, but teaching it from where you're already seems to be from a negative standpoint, trying to turn that around is, is a difficult thing to do. And you can kind of sense

that coming out of this. Um, what else, uh, that you're, uh, do you want to point out here? Well, just, just along these same lines, I think we, you, it continues in verse 54 about the idea of having mercy and asking for mercy. And I think that dichotomy that you spoke of, of both wanting to see people repent and to, but then to confound or to stop the slanders and the lies of people. But at the same time, I think what, as I read this, it feels like what is really winning the day is that they're just praying for the people. You know, it's a prayer for the world to say, you know, please have mercy on these people and we're gonna we're going to do,

we're going to do our best. Um, but we want, we want some blessings for, for others so that maybe they can, they can feel the light to, to do, to do their best as well. 54, have mercy. Verse 55, remember the Kings, princes, nobles, great ones of the earth, all the way down to the poor and needy and the afflicted ones of the earth, that everyone's heart can be softened. In verse 56. So, yeah, that seems, I like how you said that. That's what wins the day. They do express their frustration. He does express his frustration, but then asks for mercy, which I think is a beautiful human thing.

I love what Elder Holland said, that repentance is perhaps the most encouraging word in the whole Christian vocabulary. He wants it for everybody. And there it is again in verse 62. We ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob. I'm going to write that down. Mercy wins the day. I like that. I think the only other things that I made phrased because it's a plea with the Lord to,

for, for them to hear, like to hear our petitions. And, uh, we, we want, we want to keep a dialogue with you, you know, answer us from heaven. It says, um, but at the same time, there's a very strong demonstration of, uh, humility and humility and where they know the glory ought to go. It's not about, you know, hearing us and answering our petitions for our sake, but for His glory, honor, power, majesty here. And then in 78, it says, Oh, hear, oh, hear, oh, hear us, oh Lord, and answer these petitions and accept the dedication of this house unto the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name. And so that's kind of the culmination. If we're going to look at the prayer of dedication in this event as sort of the culmination of the previous several years, that's the culmination of the prayer is pleading with

the Lord to accept the house and, you know, kind of like, is this good enough? Did we do what it was that was wanted? I think we get an answer to that in the next section. I wonder how many hours they spent writing this dedicatory prayer. I've thought about that too. And I haven't been able to find anything that directly speaks to that. But I would guess that, I mean, again, it probably depends on if Joseph is feeling inspired and it just kind of comes out and he scribes it. It's more the time to do the type. And maybe it went pretty quick to get the words,

but to get it into a form to present it was probably the time that it took. And I bet that took a few hours. And then take the copies of it over to the overflow. Yeah. And then take the copies of it over to the overflow. Yeah. There's kind of a really cool phrase, I think, in verse 73 here of the dedicatory prayer. That thy church may come forth out of the wilderness, wilderness of darkness.

That sounds like a Book of Revelation reference. And shine forth, and listen to this, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners. What a phrase. Now, here's one of the few times you will ever see this book footnoted in your scriptures. Go to footnote 73b and you will see song. This actually from the song of solomon and it's also repeated look underneath in dnc 5 doctrine of covenants 5 and doctrine of covenants 105 but that phrase that's just a that just sounds that's an awesome phrase fares the moon clears the sun and terrible is an army with banners. That's good. That's fantastic. I see in this also the gathering of Israel. If you start,

yeah, if you go to verse 62, he says, we ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob. That's Israel right there. Jacob's name was changed to Israel. That Jerusalem from this hour may begin to be redeemed. That's another way of begin to be gathered, right? And the children of Judah, that's verse 64, return to the lands which thou did give to Abraham. There we have the Abrahamic covenant. He talks about them coming back. Look at verse 67, and may all the scattered remnants of Israel who have been driven to the ends of the earth come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the Messiah, be redeemed

from oppression and rejoice before thee. That is the gathering of Israel. And so if we were going to connect 1836 here with 2021, that's where a major connection would be is President Nelson's focus is on the gathering of Israel. And here it is in the very first temple dedication that one of the major purposes of the temple is the gathering of Israel. And it also, Brent talked about how we could go way back to the first vision with this. I was also thinking of Moroni's visit to Joseph Smith when he quotes, right? The turning of the hearts of the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children. Again, the gathering of Israel, right? That, yeah, here's the promise that was made so long ago that when the Lord scattered Israel, and we know that Lehi and his family was part of that scattering.

Isaiah lived part of that scattering, that one day God would gather Israel. And here you almost see almost the, I don't know, the ribbon cutting here, part of the grand opening of the gathering of Israel with the dedication of the curtain temple. It's a good way to put it. Yeah, this is fun reading because there's a lot of eloquent language from many other places in the scriptures. And like you said, mercy wins the day. Is there anything else in here?

We could spend weeks on this. We'll let people read it. But anything else, Brent, in here that you wanted to point out for us today? The only other thing that I think is maybe worth mentioning, and it's just, I think, briefly in verse 15, where it says, and that they may grow up in thee and receive a fullness of the Holy Ghost and be organized according to the laws and be prepared to obtain every needful thing. And I think that that kind of sets up, you know, it sets up in some ways our next revelation, but it just sets up the idea of the doctrine of the temple, uh, to that, that we can grow up by degrees that we can obtain a fullness and that we can obtain and become, you know, become like,

uh, heavenly parents. And, and of course there's, there's some connection that we could make there to, uh, what we learn in section 93 as well. And I guess one other thing that kind of occurs to me just about maybe not about the text itself, but about the temple, the Kirtland Temple, I think has sometimes been called or referred to as a preparatory temple. We've talked a lot about preparation.

And it was, you know, it's a temple that prepares the church for kind of a next step. And I was thinking about this sort of in the same way that the two levels of priesthood are. We have a preparatory priesthood that prepares us to do a higher and holier work. And I think the Kirtland Temple's purpose was to be that same kind of way, a preparatory temple to prepare the church members for a higher and holier work to be done. And so I think that as you think about maybe that analogy a little bit of the priesthood, the preparatory priesthood, and as the Kirtland temple as a preparatory temple, it's the time that we prepare, you know, the Aaronic priesthood is to prepare us to, to do, uh, I think a number of things, but prepare us to, to repent. And we see a lot about repentance in this, um, prayer of dedication. Um, and it prepares us to, to come unto Christ and to be, you know, accepted by Christ. And that is again,

something that the, the prayer of dedication is asking that we come unto Christ and then ask Christ to accept of our works. And so that was just something that, as I thought about that idea of preparation, the preparation to get to the temple, both in the 1830s and today, and the preparation that we have among the priesthood, it just seems like that's part of God's way to prepare us and we take things as we are prepared and we then grow based on our preparation. Yeah. I see the beginnings of what we would say is our temple experience in some of these verses, right? And you talked about them doing anointings, verse 35, let the anointing of thy ministers be sealed upon them with power from on high. Verse 78, you have, oh, here, oh, here, oh, here, oh, Lord, right? These are all kind of you can see the the foundation being laid for what we would

have in our uh in what we would you know see as the temple today we have the uh what is it the the benefit of being able to have the extended version the the more nuanced version i don't know the the uh the more of the final product and we can look back and see kind of the seeds being planted here. I'm just reminded of how President Nelson has kind of given us that phrase, the continuous restoration. And that helps me to see Kirtland- We can see it here. As something different than Nauvoo. We're going to get more later on. You know, we do have a lot more knowledge and a lot more. I mean, I think about the saints in their needing to take on faith, the things that continue to come. And that doesn't change for us. We also need to take on faith, the things that continue to come. We don't, we don't know what's going to happen down the road. Um, we just know

what we are, are asked to do in, in these times. And that's the, the same for the saints in the 1830s. They were asked to do things. They tried their best to do them and to be prepared and unified. And, and I, in some ways we're still being asked to, to be prepared and unified, but there are things that are going to come down at some point that, that will, I think, be marvelous to us and that will, will help grow our understanding. And that was, that's one of the beautiful things, excuse me, I think about studying church history is that you see that unfold for the saints, that they're, we kind of have this perspective of being able to know that, you know, we can go to the temple now and

we have all of these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they are living it in real time and to watch that happen and to see the truly remarkable faith in the things that happen and the ever, right? I love it. But at first, it wasn't easy to grasp. I think I love how the dedicatory prayer here finishes. And it finishes like so many other sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, so positively. I've rarely seen a section of the Doctrine and Covenants finish on a down note, where the Lord says, well, it's not looking good. See you later. It's always this. It's with this, you know.

It ends with joy. Yeah. Verse 79, that this church, also this church, to put upon it thy name, you know, please put your name on us and help us by the power of thy spirit that we may mingle our voices with the bright shining seraphs, the angels around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb. And let these, thine anointed ones, be clothed with That is a beautiful way to end a dedicatory prayer. It gets me just, even just the reading it gets me excited. I imagine being in the room and hearing it would stir you. Well, it's quite a prayer and i was just thinking and it gets quite an answer if you look at section 110 as the answer that prayer deserves an answer

and boy does it get an answer yeah we can i mean as we think about what happens in the course of the next week after the the dedication there's miraculous, marvelous things that happen. And it, it starts during that, that day of the, the dedication. Um, you know, there's accounts of, of people seeing angels as, as the events are taking place, uh, to dedicate the house and, and there are heavenly manifestations. It happens that evening as they, um, are, are, there's about 300. Um, I think it's, it's men that are gathered together in the temple and they have a continuation of, uh, miraculous experiences. Oliver Cowdery wrote that he saw the glory of God, like a great cloud come down and rest upon the house.

Benjamin Brown wrote that on that evening during a time of instruction, he said, a pillar or cloud rests down upon the house bright as when the sun shines on cloud like as gold. And then he said that two attendees, and this is what he writes, saw three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands. Now, I can't say for sure who those three personages are or what, but if we jump ahead to section 110, we have some people, three people that come down and bestow keys, right? It's interesting to me that you have, they're there. They're there and they're waiting for this time. on that Easter Sunday that happens the week after, there is a great answer that's given to Joseph and Oliver Cowdery is with him in the pulpits there. Then the Lord very clearly accepts

the house and he accepts the work that they've done. And, and, and so this is, you know, his, his plea, uh, in the, the prayer of dedication, we ask thee, Oh Lord, to accept this house, the workmanship of the hands of thy servants, which thou didst commit us, uh, command us to build, uh, that. And then he goes on that the son of man might have a place to manifest himself to his people. And, um, on that Easter Sunday, which I think, um, I can't remember if I think it's Steve Harper has written that that's like the second greatest Easter Sunday in, in history. Um, but we, we see what happens and it, the description of it is, um, I think it's quite marvelous, but, you know, the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit and gives a description of his countenance shown above the

brightness of the sun. I am the first and the last. I am he who liveth. I am he who is slain. I am your advocate with the father. Behold, your sins are forgiven you. You are clean before me. Therefore lift up your heads and rejoice. And then in verse seven, for behold, I have accepted this house and my name shall be here. And I will manifest myself unto my people in mercy in this house. And I, that's just, I, I can't, I just can't think of anything more, more marvelous than that. And it's, I think it's, there's nowhere else on the earth that we, I think can feel closer to the presence of our Savior than in the temple. And that's, that's a true, true statement then as it, as it is in my view now.

I would just add one other thing about the early description of this, I think, you know, of the Savior's appearance and his approach, I would say, where he says in, let me get back to it here, but we says in verse five, behold, your sins are forgiven you. Um, among some of the earliest words that he says to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and we were to read the 1832 account of the first vision. It says of the, of the Lord. And he spake unto me saying, Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven thee. Go thy way, walk in my statutes and keep my commandments. Behold, I am the Lord of glory. Joseph, and in this case, Oliver, that his sins are forgiven and that that is his nature is to forgive sins. And that is something that we should, I think, take very seriously as we approach our, our days and weeks, as we, uh, repent of the shortcomings that we have as, as humans, that the Lord is always there waiting for us to forgive our sins and to embrace us. And, and then it says

there, lift up your head and rejoice. And I think that's a beautiful sentiment for us today that we can think to always lift up our heads and rejoice because the savior loves us and knows us and is, is there waiting for us. Yeah. I remember our interview with Dr. Mike Wilcox, where we went through section 64 and he says, everybody's getting forgiveness. Do you remember that, John? Everybody's getting forgiveness.

You're getting forgiveness. You're getting forgiveness. And he said, uh, he's, he's not a casual forgiver. I remember he said, he's a delightful forgiver. He really likes to forgive people of their sins. And here he does it again. And I think I talked about this before in another one, Hank, but I forget. But my favorite title for the Savior is advocate. And the fact that he would use that one in verse 4, just before saying your sins are forgiven you, you know, I am your advocate.

And when you see the word advocate, you assume three parties already. There's, I'm going to add advocate for you to a third party. I'm your advocate with the father. And I think I told the group before, just Google Jesus Advocate Harry Anderson. There's a beautiful painting by Harry Anderson that does a lot of the paintings you've seen, where it looks like a depiction of the final judgment, perhaps. And the Savior has his hand on the shoulder of this man. It's just, it really evokes a feeling of, oh, I won't be alone.

I have an advocate. I love that he uses that title. And thank you, Brent, for pointing out that your sins are forgiven. And that was, who was it that we interviewed, Hank, that said what Brent just did about, yeah, the first thing in the first vision. Was that Tony that was said was your sins are forgiven you? Right. Yeah. I think it's been said a number of times that this is almost how he introduces himself as- He's a forgiver.

This is who I am and I am a forgiver. An advocate and a forgiver. I've seen something here that I wanted to point out when, John, you talked about this is a great prayer and it gets a great answer. Oftentimes I want a great answers. I want great answers to not good prayer, right? Like I want a million dollar answer to my five cent prayer. And this is a million dollar answer to a million dollar prayer. And we also talked about all the work that went in beforehand. So if we want to have these type of experiences with the Lord, we've got to be willing to want to work. I mean, work hard to do what we've been asked to do, right?

And then to pray hard and to pray intently. It seems like, you know, working hard to do what you've been asked to do combined with praying with all your heart, mind, and mind and soul, then turns into, you know, kind of a, uh, uh, uh, an, uh, equation here, right? Hard work plus intense, sincere prayer. I wouldn't even say just hard work, but hard work doing what you've been asked to do plus intense where that leads to these type of answers. Um, and I think we could all have them. It's just sometimes I want to put in a little bit of work, a little bit of prayer, and I probably get a little bit of answer, right?

I was just thinking about, you know, as you said, it's a million dollar answer for a million dollar prayer. And I think, I mean, that kind of falls into the way that I've thought about, um, what, what happens at the, the Kirtland temple. And then with these, uh, manifestations first of the savior, and then we haven't quite got to, um, Moses, Elias and Elijah, but, uh, those, those are immense rewards for the sacrifice that's been put in. And so, if we were to go on a deeper dive into church history and we'd look at how much the church, Joseph Smith, others took on financial debts to allow for the building of the temple to happen, right? I think one source said that the building, just the building committee, and there was just a couple of individuals on the building committee, but were about $14,000 in debt.

Now, that may not sound like a lot to people today, but $14,000 in 1836 is a significant amount of money. And that's just those two individuals. Joseph Smith had additional debts and as did others. And sometimes we think about in the church today, the word debt having a negative connotation. But I kind of think of it more in this line of investment. If we're investing this hard work and we're investing with our, you know, to use your phrase, a million dollar prayer, this spiritual return that comes on this temporal investment more than makes up for the cost. And so, that's the way I look at, you know, because some people, what happens with finances in Kirtland, I have a colleague named Elizabeth Keene, who's just an expert on finances in

Kirtland, and she's done a lot of great work on this topic. But, you know, and especially looking at the Kirtland safety society. And sometimes that, uh, gets pointed out as, as like a, a, you know, a major stumbling block. And it was kind of a, people saw that as a flaw in Joseph's, um, you know, leadership and things like that. But if you think about the investment that is made to construct the building and then to do the work to prepare both in a physical sense and in a spiritual sense. And then the, what, what is received,

um, on this Easter Sunday, April 1836, I, I'm pretty sure I'm going to take that return on the investment. Um, you know, I just think that the manifestations that occurred,

um, open the way for more of the gospel and more of the work that we know today. More of the continuous restoration. And parts of this are so, I mean, who shows up after, who else comes after the advocate after jehovah comes yeah and that and that's the uh moses elias and then elijah in in that order and you know we we learn about moses appearing and committing the keys of the gathering of israel and and that uh you know i think john you talked about that earlier as being referenced in the prayer of dedication. And now we have the keys to do that work. And then Elias committing the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham. And to prepare members for the kingdom of God.

And then Elijah appearing and committing the keys of the ceiling power, um, to do work for, for the living and the dead. And those are, um, I mean, I don't even know if I have the right words. Um, I, I, I think it was elder, uh, cook that, that called these eternity shaping, um, um, events, events. And yeah, I've had students ask me before if Elias isn't Elias Elijah in the Bible. And that's, that's, there is that case. Um, when, when Elijah is spoken of in the new Testament, it's usually referring to, it refers to him as Elias.

But if you look in the Bible dictionary, under the word Elias, you'll learn all this. And it says that Elias can be a title, like a John the Baptist was called an Elias because he was a forerunner, right? He went before. And then the last two paragraphs said a man named Elias lived in mortality in the days of Abraham who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple on April 3rd, 1836. So yes, in the New Testament, when you hear the word Elias, that's usually referring to Elijah. But there is a man named Elias who lived during the time of Abraham. You know, what I love about this too is that I remember Joseph Fielding McConkie, one of my professors, talking about that sometimes we say the New Testament church was restored. But then he would say things like, well, what priesthood do you hold? Melchizedek. Oh, is that Old Testament or new? What about your boy? Oh, that's Aaron. Is that Old Testament or new? Look at this. Oh, Moses. Oh, Elias. Oh, Elijah. Oh, and then he would say, this is the old time religion.

But I think that's interesting. This is from the beginning. And I love Abrahamic covenant mentioned there in verse 12. Like you said, Hank, I think that Robert Millett has said that the restoration of the gospel was in fact the restoration of the Abrahamic covenant. Yeah. And then you have that same verse, right? This verse that comes up in every one of the standard works where Malachi wrote that Elijah will come

and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, the children to their fathers. Almost for me, Brent, this same verse is like two bookends. It starts with Moroni quoting it to Joseph Smith in, what, 1823, and finishes with it being quoted again in the Kirtland Temple in 1836. Almost like, we started this in 1823, 13 years later, we've reached the point where what I was thinking of when I started, right? That's a long process for the prophet. Well, and then we don't have a lot of sources that kind of speak to it, but the, you know, baptisms for the dead start in the early 1840s. And so, there's still a significant, I mean, if you want to look at the

stretch of time, that's a few years, it's still a pretty significant amount of time before that work gets started. And now there's lots of things that are happening in the intervening time, but this event happens in 1836. And then we don't, I guess, start seeing the fruits of the labor until the early 1840s. And so to me, that suggests that there's still some things that Joseph's trying to figure out and how this is all supposed to work. It reminds me of one of our guests said, think of the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood as a process rather than an event with Peter, James, and John, that there's much more to that. That was one event among many. And this seems, I think you could add that idea that this is part of the

restoration of the priesthood, right? Section 110, another step along that line of them understanding this. John, what were you going to say? I just, what you said about what Malachi said, turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, the children of the fathers. And I like to, with my students, put this side by side with the footnote there, Joseph Smith history, because Joseph Smith talks about Moroni quoted it differently, where he said he'll turn the hearts, he'll plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers. And then you go, oh, this is Abrahamic covenant type of a thing. And not that the whole earth would be smitten with the curse, but that it would be utterly wasted. And one of the things that, one of the tenants, is that a word, Hank? Is that a scholar

word? Of script, what do they call it? Textual criticism is that the earliest account must be the most accurate. And, but with scripture, we would say this, a prophet can come along and say, let me give you a little bit more. And it's not like, well, which Malachi, which verse is true? It's like verse 15 is exactly true. But what Moroni said in Joseph Smith history, words a little different, but gives us more. And then my understanding is that later on, Joseph Smith said, I could have translated turn as bind or seal. And so it's a dynamic thing. And a prophet can come along and say, let me make that verse a little more clear. Yeah, and I like that.

Some people would say, oh, the audacity. But no, a prophet can do that. That's what prophets do. To say that there's a most correct way to render a verse, I think, is maybe cornering revelation a little too, you know, trying to paint it into a corner that it can't be malleable. It's not static. It's dynamic. And here's a prophet giving us a little bit more insight on that thing. So I love that, the Malachi statement there. And you said every one of the standard works, right?

Yeah, every one of the standard works has, and I think it's the only one to my knowledge. This, Brent, this feels almost to me as a New Testament teacher is like a Mount of Transfiguration reunion, right? Along with the restoration of the priesthood with Peter, James, and John, you've got pretty much everybody who's at the Mount of Transfiguration is part of this same process. No, and there's a chart in the Religion 211, the New Testament manual that shows, which is so symmetrical and so elegant the way God does things, is that the same characters, Mount of Transfiguration, were there at the Kirtland Temple. Matthew 17, it's sort of this section in some ways is a, I don't know, reenactment or a redoing of that event on the Mount of Transfiguration. So, yeah, I think that you're absolutely right that there's the receipt of priesthood keys from heavenly messengers. And there's, again, I think to me it speaks to that, you know, the way that God does things. You know, it shows the pattern. If, you know, the Savior's pattern is to start by forgiving your sins as he speaks, if there's preparatory, you know, priesthood that leads to higher and holier work, if there's preparatory temples that lead to higher and holier work, if there's, you know, things that are done, they're done in a pattern that is in the Lord's way. And, and he

reveals those patterns to us. So that's, I think that's helpful for us as we navigate our own day and our own situations. Even Brent, even up till the, the, the contention you talked about before the dedication of the temple, it reminded me of the darkness that comes before the first vision, right? That there's this kind of darkness they have to get through and pray themselves through. And then here comes this glorious vision and the Lord comes first. I forgive your sins. Then angels come just like Moroni came, right?

So, yeah, I think there's a beautiful pattern there. It's a good way to look at it. And I love the idea. I mean, to me think there's a beautiful pattern. the father and the son. What? Well, that's not all. John the Baptist. What? Well, that's not all. Peter, James, and John. What? Well, that's not all. It's on Moses. What?

And Elijah. And well, I actually saw Adam and Seth. Well, and I could tell you what Paul looked like and what he sounded like. I mean, that is... Yeah. What did someone say once, John? They have the same celestial goal? Is that we're all kind of, all the prophets from Adam to President Nelson are on the same, have the same goal in mind, right? And they're all still part of the process. Yeah, I like how you said that. The second greatest Easter ever.

If anybody's wondering what the first greatest Easter is, just go read John 20 and 21. Yeah, there you go. You'll know what the greatest Easter was. Like, which one's the greatest one? I'm looking in the Come Follow Me manual, and I just love this. Well, in verse 10, it says, The fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands, and this is the beginning of the blessing,

which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so, amen. And then that vision closed, another one opens. But I love this paragraph on 166 of your manual. Why the great excitement on both sides of the veil? The promise that the saints would be endowed with power from on high was one reason they had gathered to Ohio in the first place. And it takes you to section 38, which Brent mentioned. And greater things were promised for the future. This, the Lord declared, is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my

people. The era we now live in, with accelerated temple work and ordinances available to millions of the living and the dead had its beginnings in kirtland when the veil or the earth was beginning to burst and we should probably mention they sang that song right that's beautiful was that the first time they sang the spirit of god or was it known to them i think so i think he wrote it for that occasion i believe that's right. Yeah, I think that it was written specifically for the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. Well, and time stood still for me a couple of years ago. I was in the Kirtland Visitor Center, and I saw a painting of these Moses, Elias, Elijah.

Have you seen that one? Right by the doors? Oh, man. I just stood there and looked at that. The look on Joseph and Oliver's face as these guys are coming down. It's these guys. Sorry. Hey, fellas.

Forgive me. As these prophets are coming. And I i thought of the words of that hymn the visions and blessings of old are returning and angels are coming to visit the earth and that's what the painting depicts and i said wow look at that what a moment what an answer to a prayer. What a day to be a Latter-day Saint, right? And to experience that. What did Joseph Smith, I have a quote from Joseph Smith. He says, Brother George A. Smith arose, this is during the dedication, and began to prophesy when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the temple and all the congregation simultaneously rose, being moved upon by an invisible power. Many began to speak in tongues and prophesy.

Others saw glorious visions. And I, Joseph Smith says, beheld the temple was filled with angels, which fact I declared to the congregation. And the people of the neighborhood came running together and were astonished at what was taking place. Right? They saw bright light like a pillar of fire resting upon the temple. What a day. I like what you said, Brent. The spiritual return is worth the cost.

Return on investment. Yeah, thank you for that. Brent, while we have you here, before we let you go, we want to ask you a question. Here you are. You are a historian. You've dedicated your life to becoming a competent historian, right? You're good at what you do. And yet here you are, a firm, faithful believer in the prophet and the restoration. Can you tell us a little bit about how you feel about Joseph Smith and his contemporaries? I think I mentioned earlier that history can be malleable and it can be written and interpreted in different ways, but there are, there are sources that exist and they are the bedrock

of, and should be the bedrock of any, you know, historical writing and interpretation. The, the words on those records, they don't, they don't change. And they, they continue to speak to us in different ways. And that's been one of the things that I've loved about studying Joseph Smith and church history is, is getting back to those sources and seeing in those sources for myself, uh, what, what took place in the, in the past. And sometimes there are things in history, we think we should be entitled to know everything that happened and every reason why things happened in history, whether that's in church history or American history or world history. And then we have a vantage point from from our present day that um sometimes we

think that what happened in the past should fit exactly how we think today and being able to go back to those sources and to think critically about them uh gives me the opportunity to kind of think through the things that people knew and when they knew it and how they approached different events and different things that happened. And for me, when I look at Joseph Smith's life, I see somebody who earnestly was seeking to do God's will, what he believed to be God's will for him. And he never deviated from that.

And that's, to me, when I look at the sources, that's what I see in the sources. And I see that in the records and accounts of a lot of other individuals who heard about the Book of Mormon and who heard about Joseph Smith's revelations, and they conducted their lives that way. And that uplifts me, that inspires me, that encourages me. But there are things that have happened in, in the past that we don't have a lot of sources about. And so when there aren't a lot of sources that leaves room for speculation, it leaves room for interpretation. It, it leaves room for me, it leaves room for faith and leaves room for, for choice and how we, we choose to look at those things and through which lens we choose to look at them. And, and for me, I, I try always to

look at events of the past and events with Joseph Smith and with church leaders since, and with church members since is that people who were trying their best, but you know, that maybe don't always match up with you know, 2021 and beyond thinking about the way, the way things should be. But I think that if we look at things with a bit of a lens of, of faith and make choices to give room for people to be human, there's good reason to appreciate things that happened in the

past. And if we understand context, that's really helpful too. But I know that we all, you know, it's kind of a thing of human nature, I think. I mean, it is for me anyway. I want to know, I want to have a reason. I want to, you know, search out the sources and create a pretty concrete narrative. And there's just times when there's not a piece that not a piece that, that connects the narrative. And in those cases, like I said, there's, there's options that you can have. You can make up your own narrative. You can interpret, you know, you can guess as to why things happen. But for me, I, I turn myself to the scriptures and, and a favorite scripture of mine is in second Nephi, uh, chapter nine verses, uh, 28 and 29. And, um,

and, you know, Hank, you mentioned that, that I'm a competent historian. I appreciate that. I, I hope that that's true. Uh, but, but it says, you know, when they are learned, they think they are wise. And so I guess for me, I would consider myself learned. I don't know if I'm wise, but I am learned. And I know what the scripture is saying is sometimes when we, you know, learn a lot of things, we think we're really smart and we know everything. But the scripture warns about hearkening not unto the counsel of God and instead setting it aside, supposing they know of themselves. And I try not to know of myself. I try to follow this next scripture. To be learned is good

if they hearken unto the counsels of God. And I guess for me as a historian, uh, trained to want to know and to find the sources and to create and construct those narratives and, and make, make something that, uh, you know, is, is true to the past in those cases when there are sources that don't sit well with me or there aren't sources that, um, that create the whole picture because we have to know that we're, you know, we can't reconstruct every day of, of every person's life in a history. You know, even the best written histories take a mere fraction and I, I'm not going to put a percentage on it, but a mere fraction of, of even what the available sources are, which are a mere fraction of a person's life. And, and so when there are those gaps, I, I turn and I look for, um, I look towards Christ. I guess I'll just, that's, that's

where I'm at. And that's what I, what I say and what I'll, what I do. I know enough to know that I don't know. And the things that are important to me are the things that I find in the scriptures that, you know, whether it's the Bible or the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants, there are things in there that teach me about Christ and about the nature of God. And that's where I choose to focus. There are things that I've learned about Christ. There are experiences that I've had with understanding his love and his atonement. And that's where I direct my energies. And I think that focusing on the Savior and, and on his love and in following

those two great commandments that, that he outlined for us, along with the scriptures and revelations that generated from, from Joseph Smith, they teach, they teach me at least more about Christ and they make me want to keep my focused on focus on him. Um, so I think I try to hearken under the counsels of God and because the, the scripture, the scriptures that, that I read and that I, um, love, I mean, many of them emanated from Joseph Smith. I, I take the fruits of what, what he's done, um, and what he's brought forth. And I, I believe that he was doing his best to, to do God's will. And because of that, I get to learn more about Christ. And because of that, I get to, to go on a journey that has a pretty awesome, a pretty awesome upside. And, um,

I just, I marvel at the work of, of Joseph. Um, I marvel at the, the faith of, of him, but also of, of many Latter-day Saints. And I'm, I'm grateful for the opportunities that I've had in this life to, to come to know my savior better. And I, I'm able to know my savior better. I believe because of, um, the book of Mormon and because of the revelations that we have in the Doctrine and Covenants. And Joseph Smith brought those forth for us to continue to do God's work. And that's where I'm at and that's what I believe. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen. Amen. Amen. Wow. Dr. Rogers, thank you, Brent. Thank you for being with us today. We have been uplifted and taught wonderful ways, John. We're just lucky to be here. That's what I think. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how I got this job.

Thank you so much. Actually, I do, but I'm grateful. Yeah, Brent, it was wonderful. Thank you both. Thank you both for having me. I appreciate you and all the good work that you're doing. Well, we feel the same about you. We want to thank Dr. Brent Rogers for being with us. We want to thank all of you for listening. We're grateful for your support. And we know that some of you turn off the podcast and you don't hear about our production team. So if you're reaching to turn to hit the stop button right now, you stop, you stop.

So you can hear your most exciting voice for this part. This is exciting. You want to, you want to know the names of our executive producers because we love them and we owe a lot to them, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. And we have an incredible production crew. We have David Perry, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton, Lisa Spice, and Jamie Nielsen.

And we love our production crew. And we hope that all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him.