followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 129-132 Part 1 : Dr. Kate Holbrook

Episode Date: November 6, 2021

Is plural marriage a requirement in the Celestial Kingdom? As Joseph has a few moments of respite in Nauvoo, he has more time for theological reflection and as these sections reflect. Dr. Kate Holbrook shares her research regarding marriage.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodes/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Assistant Video EditorSpanish Transcripts: Ariel CuadraFrench Transcripts: Krystal RobertsPortuguese Transcripts: Igor Willians"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow Him. Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith, and I am here with my angelic co-host, John, by the way. Hi, John. Okay, that's one I haven't heard. John, I'm telling you, that's probably the first word I think of when I think of you, is my angelic co-host. It wasn't linebacker then. Okay. Yeah, no, it wasn't. It wasn't NBA all-star. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. It wasn't. All right. It wasn't NBA all-star.

No, I'm sorry. But I do think of, hey, we want to remind everybody to come find us on social media. We've got an Instagram account and a Facebook account that are run by the incredible Jamie Nielsen. And we would love to hear from you. And we have some extras on there for you that maybe you haven't heard or seen. We would love it if you would subscribe to, rate, and review the podcast. Now, some of you were born in the 1900s, and you don't know how to do that.

So find someone who was born in the 2000s and ask them how to rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast. And big announcement, we want you to know that you can go to followhim.co, followhim.co, and we have show notes there. You already knew that. We have a transcript, but we now have the transcript in French, Portuguese, and Spanish there at the website. So please find us there and share the podcast with your friends if you like it. Now, John, let's get to the good stuff. I've been nervous for this interview all week, not because of the material, but because we have a guest coming that I've really only seen on TV. So pretty excited about this. Tell us who's joining us. Yeah, this is great. This is Kate Holbrook. She is a leading voice in the study of Latter-day Saint women and Latter-day Saint foodways. As managing historian of women's history at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint's history department, she writes, studies, and interprets history full-time. Her major research interests are religion, gender, and food. A popular public speaker,

Kate was voted, listen to this Hank, Harvard College's Teaching Fellow of the Year for her work as head teaching fellow in a course that enrolled nearly 600 students. She co-edited Global Values 101, a short course based on that class. In 2012, she and her co-organizer, Matthew Bowman, have edited a collection of essays that sprang from this conference entitled Women and Mormonism, Historical and Contemporary Perspectives. Kate has also published essays and book chapters about Latter-day Saint women and housework, Nation of Islam Muslims, Latter-day Saints and Food, Religion and Sexuality, and Rel sexuality, and religious hunting rituals. We're going to have to ask her about that.

Kate grew up at the feet of the Rocky Mountains, is happy to live there again, among the historic sites, cultural events, and food environments where her scholarship has its roots. She has a BA in English and Russian literature from Brigham Young University, an MTS from Harvard Divinity School, and a PhD in Religious Studies from Boston University. For her dissertation work on Latter-day Saint and Nation of Islam foodways, she was the first recipient of the Eccles Fellowship in Mormon Studies at the University of Utah. She and her husband, Samuel Brown, are raising three children in Salt Lake City. Sounds like you've been in college all of your life. And will you please indulge me? What is an

MTS from Harvard Divinity School? Master in Theological Studies. That's the degree you can get in Divinity School if you're not going to be ordained a minister. In Theological Studies. Wow. degree you can get in divinity school if you're not going to be ordained a minister. In theological studies. Wow. Oh, I was going to say, but while I was there, I studied religion and society and religion and world religions. So it's a very broad. You're able to make the degree what you want, which is wonderful. John, if that bio was supposed to make me less nervous, that did not help.

I'm really curious to say, about the food part. Me too, actually. I wanted to ask about that. Yeah. When I was a child, even, my favorite TV show was The Frugal Gourmet on PBS. And I later learned he was actually a Presbyterian minister, religion and food. And then for my dissertation, I really wanted to study both everyday religion and women and religion. And food is a way to do both of those things,

because women traditionally are responsible for preparing food. And eating and choosing what to eat and choosing where to obtain our food is something that we do every day, several times a day. So it was a really good way to get at that niche. Yeah. You said religion and food were part of your interests. I thought, okay, religion and food are my interests as well. I know, John, you're on there too. Do you remember the movie White Nights with Baryshnikov and Gergely? It was my favorite movie when I was a tween. And I would look at – they have newspapers in one scene with Russian, you know, Cyrillic writing on them.

And I just thought, oh, I want to learn that. But I didn't have the opportunity growing up to learn that language. And then I was called as one of the, you know, in those early years when missions in Russia were just starting, I was called to serve in the Moscow mission. And then I went straight to Samara and helped to open that new mission. Wow. That's where the Russian came up. That's great. So you were already interested in Russia, and then you got called there.

Wow. Yes. Yeah. And my husband was super interested in Russian, and he studied Russian as an undergraduate, and he got called to Louisiana English speaking. Well, Dr. Holbrook, welcome. Thank you. We're lucky to have you.

Yeah, we're excited. I feel lucky to be on the show, so. Thank you. We're lucky to have you. Yeah, we're excited. I feel lucky to be on the show. So thank you both. Well, let's jump into our lesson since we have such an expert here, John. We're going to look at sections 129 through 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants. So Dr. Holbrook, we're going to kind of let you lead here. Give us our background. What do we need to know to approach these sections and to get the most out of them?

Great. Thank you so much. And I think I'll just mention briefly these Section 129. Recent episodes that I've heard from you guys, we've been in Kirtland, everything's been falling apart, and we moved to Far West, and everything is just so hard and painful. Well, then we're in Nauvoo. We get to be in Nauvoo for these sections. And yes, there are still challenges, but there's a lot of hope. We're starting to build houses and build a town and be able to have a little more security and sense of permanence. So Joseph Smith also

has the leisure to do a little more theological thinking. You know, we have a lot of, they're still spiritual, but really practical information in a lot of recent sections that we've been talking about in Come Follow Me. And now we get to be in some more esoteric theological material. And so, in section 129, for example, you have direction on how to differentiate between spirits. Angels are represented beings, and so if you hold out your hand to them and they shake your hand, then you know this is a resurrected being. That's definitely more theological than practical. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

And my favorite is the spirit who isn't resurrected, doesn't have a body, but is a good spirit. They won't even hold out their hand to you because the integrity is so strong there. They won't try to fool you. Right. And then you have this spirit who isn't resurrected and is an evil spirit, and they will reach out their hand, but when you touch it, it's... You won't feel anything. That's interesting. So he's getting some time. He's not in jail. He's not running away from a mob or people who are trying to hurt him. So he's getting some time to really dive into theology. I like that idea. That's how I experience these

sections. And then in 130, there's a familiar line. I think that I know I'm not the only one who loves it. It's verse two. And that same sociology which exists among us here will exist among us there. Only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy. My dad left when I was a few weeks old. And then my grandpa died when I was five. So my mom and I moved in with my grandma and when my grandma died,

it just, Oh, it really did me in. I was so close to that woman and loved, loved her so much. And this verse two is one that brings me a lot of comfort that I can have that same sort of comforting, loving,

really intimate relationship with her in the afterlife that I had while she was here with me. That is really good. Exactly. I love the idea that I'll be able to say, Hank, how you been? How are you? And Kate and family, friends. And I don't know if I've ever seen that word sociality anywhere else, but in this verse. But that same friendship, associations, it's all right in there.

And it really makes sense. One of the ways I see the gospel, the commandments that Jesus tells us are the most important. And just the whole point of the gospel is to help us be closer to God and be closer to each other and help each other. So, it definitely makes sense that we would have robust social lives in the afterlife. And the difference would be that we would be even closer to the presence of God and Jesus Christ. It'll be coupled with eternal glory. So, John, we'll have all of our hair. That will be even more fun. I hope, Hank, you say that I'm the linebacker there.

If they give me an order form, I won't be the Barney Fife impersonator, but we'll see. Then we moved on to another familiar verse. We're still in section 130, and it's verse 18. Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. Always found that to be inspiring to me to keep up my study, but also the learning that comes from everyday life and interaction with other people. Trying to serve other people helps. It makes my scripture study more alive. It makes my prayer life more alive.

And I think those are other forms of intelligence in addition to just, you know, study that we'll take with us. To knowledge. just in my New Testament classes today at BYU, I taught Luke chapter 12, where there's a man whose biggest problem in his life is he doesn't have enough room for his stuff. And he thinks to himself, what am I going to do? So he says, I know what I should do. I should build bigger barns, bigger houses so I can fit all my stuff in it. And then the Savior says, and then he dies, he builds those bigger barns and he dies and all that stuff stays here. And so we talked in class about what actually goes with us. And that seems to be what Joseph is teaching here, doesn't it?

That this knowledge, this work that we've put in to learn will go with us into the next life. So that's maybe where she would focus our time. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other verse we were talking about too, the love, the relationships, they go with this as well. Those are the things that go with us. I love that. I think Alma, when he's talking to Corianton, go not after the vain things of this world, for behold, you cannot carry them with you. So one of my favorite authors that I read in high school was a strange name, Og Mandino.

Have you heard of him? And he said that whatever you load up your camel with in this life, death will unload your cargo. So some things don't get past that checkout counter called death. Well, what does? And here we learn something. And I hope we'll get all the things that we've learned, but maybe forgotten too. But I loved what Kate said about just not book learning necessarily, but what we learned just interacting with one another,

kindness and charity, hopefully. We get to keep that. Yeah, that goes with this. That's beautiful. Yeah. This is theology, isn't it? It is. I love that Joseph Smith got to really say,

oh, here's some things I've been thinking about. Isn't that really what section 130 is, or just little bits that Joseph kind of jotted down or wrote down or said at some point? Yeah, the prophecy on the civil war is in there, a little bit more about the civil war prophecy. And then one more that I'd like to hit is verse 21. And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. That's another one that is really familiar to church members who've been in the church for at least a little while, very important one. And I think it's an important precursor to section 132 when we get a vision

of obedience that is very powerful. Wow. Good point. Yeah, that's interesting. There was one night, and I don't wax personal very often, but there was one night I was saying my prayers and I said, I'm thankful for my blessings. John, I think you've heard me tell this story before. And I said, I'm thankful for my blessings. And I felt kind of a prompting say, why don't we change that? Why don't you say you're thankful for the commandments? which I've been able to receive these blessings. And it was just a small change for me, but it's helped me see the beauty of the commandments, right? The blessings come from commandments. God's not just dishing out blessings to, it's not some lottery system. There's a law in place in which you can receive certain blessings. Keep the law and you'll receive

the blessings. I love that, Hank. I wish I'd heard that a couple of years ago. My oldest daughter is a freshman in college now. I'll start using that in family prayers for the other two. I got to tell you this, that in the Smith house in verse 20, there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world upon which all blessings are predicated. And we use that phrase quite a bit. There's a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world that no matter what time sacrament meeting starts, the Smith family will be late. We just cannot seem to figure out how to break that law. Now let's go. I'm going to talk about 131 even faster because I think it would be rewarding

for us to spend most of our time on 132 today. And 131 is again preparing us for section 132. In verse 2, we read, in order to obtain the highest degree of heaven, it's talking about a man must enter into this order of the priesthood, meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. So, it's setting us up. So, then we have this question. Well, tell me more. What is this? And why is marriage so important towards celestial glory?

In Protestant America that Joseph Smith is living in, what's the idea of marriage in the next life? Is that being taught? Is that something that an everyday Christian would think about? Often, you know, we think of marriage as till death do us part in much of the world, not all of the world, but much of the world. But I think there's also a popular conception that relationships extend beyond the grave. I mean, in our own time, think about movies or conversations you've had with people who believe in an afterlife.

They don't have ceilings, but they believe that they'll be able to see their loved ones. Loved ones, again. I wonder what someone would say if I'm going to be married in the next life versus I'll see someone in the next life. I just wonder if anybody even makes that distinction, maybe even not. I mean, all the love songs and everything talk about forever and endless love and everything. I think maybe something in our spirits kind of knows and yearns and hopes for that. Yeah. But I think a lot, I mean, Hank, I don't know, but, and Kate, you studied so much more about other religious traditions, but I know that the, you know, the question Jesus was asked from the Sadducees when he answered, they are neither married nor given in marriage.

I mean, a lot of interpret that when we're not married, we're just, but it must be something better is what I've heard because they're not really sure what comes next. And it's tricky that the history of New Testament, you know, writing and interpretation and people adding and subtracting stuff material from those records. It's hard to know who put what in or changed wording just a little bit to get a little spin on it. I definitely think it's scripture and it's something that can really lead us and help us

understand Christ better and understand better how to live. But I think there are moments in the scriptures that we shouldn't get too hung up on one particular interpretation. And hence the need for the restoration, right? Exactly. Exactly. We need these revelations to help us understand. So I think that does bring us to 132. Do you feel like we're ready to jump in? I do. Do you, John? Yeah, I think, I didn't mean to insert some confusion there. I just, with that verse, I thought that, yeah, that generally commentaries I've seen from our church are, well, these were Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection.

So Jesus perhaps was speaking directly to them. They neither marry. But the fact that they would ask whose wife will she be indicates they did believe in some sort of – Right. The question wasn't will she be married. The question was to who, to whom. And so it's interesting. I know Robert J. Matthews pointed out, look, they did think there was some kind of marriage in the way they were asking the question.

But anyway. I was going to ask what – just us a little bit, maybe, Kate, what are the last few years of Joseph's life like? You said he's dipping into theology, but he's very busy, right? At the time, he's serving as mayor of Nauvoo, I think, for a while. And he's got a homestead to run. Is he happy during this time from what you've read? Is Joseph doing well? from people who betray him, from people who misrepresent and misunderstand him, from marital strife that he has with Emma. So, I think there's so much good and revelation pouring in and this nascent endowment, understanding of the endowment, which is so important, you know, one of his greatest legacies to us. But as a human in a human world,

there was also a lot to grapple with. Yeah. I like that. We've seen him struggle so much from 1837 to 1839. You just think the guy deserves a bit of a break, at least maybe in my mind. I'm just like, oh, let him have some good years before it ends. And at least in Nauvoo, he more often maybe than he used to can have a comfortable bed and a good meal. Just some of those little comforts that help us hang on. Yeah. And have some friends over and have dinner, right? You know the importance of a meal with a family and religion and friends. So

I hope that happened for him. Okay. Well, I think, John, do you feel ready to go into 132? Yeah. I'm very anxious to learn. I'm excited about this and for all of our listeners. Yeah, me too. I remember as a seminary teacher, both as a seminary student and a seminary teacher, I don't remember learning a lot or really trying to dive into Section 132 that much. So I'm excited as well. And it's a difficult section. I think it's a difficult section even to understand. So we'll do what we can together.

And I believe we'll be able to do some good work together. Okay. Well, we're happy that you're here. and we'll jump in with the jokes anytime we're needed. That's great. That's what we provide, right, John? Not much. I've read studies that people respect you more if you have the confidence to tell jokes. Yes. Hey, John, look at that. Makes you vulnerable because they might not laugh. That's been my history.

So, Kate, the first thing I noticed was the date of Section 132 is July of 1843. We are under a year to Joseph Smith's death in June of 1844. It's a big deal. It's so much going on this year. Relief Society has been established and is moving ahead. And I think Joseph Smith has a sense. I know he has a sense. He's not going to live forever. And just the more he can do, the better. I think he's operating under that kind of a mindset. And then also, one of the things that we'll study in this really large and all-encompassing section is plural marriage. It was really hard on everybody. It was hard on the men who learned about it, the men who began to practice it, the women who learned about it, the men who began to practice it, the women who learned about it,

the women who began to practice it. So, alongside the fulfillment and even angelic visitations they were experiencing in their spiritual lives, there were some concrete, hard, everyday things that they were grappling with. So, the first several, I think it's four verses of this section do suggest plural marriage. In verse one, we read, and Jesus Christ is speaking, I, the Lord, justified my servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David, and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines. Joseph Smith had asked about their plural wives. And this isn't a surprise because this was a restorationist endeavor. They were working to restore not just the gospel that Jesus Christ established on the earth, but the Abrahamic covenant was very

important to them. So, they were looking to restore the whole history of the church of God and human relationships with God. So, it's not surprising that this practice came up. And if I had been editing this section, I would have moved this down, because then we leave plural marriage, and we start to talk about something else for a long time, for 30 verses or so. And so, I would have thought, well, I should just take this down and put it down where we get back to this topic. But I think what it does for us to have these verses at the beginning is it gives us context of what question, what important questions started this conversation. And to have that context, then when we think about how the

Savior answers it, it makes the Savior's approach to answering it really, really meaningful. It matters that He doesn't just start by talking about plural marriage, but he starts by talking about the new and everlasting covenant. I noticed verse three, prepare your heart to receive. Yes. That is a, that's, I don't want to say ominous, but it's an important piece of this, I would say, is you're going to have to check your own heart here as you learn this. And I would, if somebody said that in a blessing to me, I would think, oh, uh-oh. Yeah, a little ominous little idea. What's coming?

Yeah, prepare your heart to receive. I'm just really glad you brought that up because I think I had been taught that, that, yes, thank you for that question about this. First, let me talk about marriage. And that will be a foundation so that I can answer your question about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, their marriages. Is that fair? Yeah, I think that's right. So a little bit more on context. We talked about the context that they're in Nauvoo now, but the other thing I think we need to keep in mind before we go any further is the Abrahamic covenant. And this is Genesis 12, verses 1 through 3. This is really important

to every tradition that reads the Hebrew Bible or what we call the Old Testament. I'll read those verses. They're short. Now, the Lord had said unto Abraham, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee. And I will make of thee, here's the promise, I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great, and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee. And in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. So I can imagine one reason this feels really relevant to Joseph Smith at this time is that you had to leave behind, you know,

get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred. And yes, his mom and his dad came with him, but not every relative, not every friend was still with him by the time he got to Nauvoo. So, he and the church members had had to make this same sort of sacrifice of leaving behind a home and an identity. And then the promise, this says a great nation, but what it means is descendants, progeny, you know, even to as many as the sands of the sea or the stars in the heaven. That's a really important promise here, that his name will be great, that he will have land, and that the people of the earth will be blessed through him and through his progeny. Those are the promises. So just to mark, those have been

really important to a lot of religious people for centuries. And those are the promises that Joseph Smith is, well, and Jesus Christ is alluding to in this section. So I wanted us to be clear on what that was, what that was about when we encounter Abraham's name. With my students, I call them the three Ps, posterity, priesthood, and property. Oh, nice. I call them the three Ps, posterity, priesthood, and property. There's certain things that come with this blessing. And it was passed to Isaac and it was passed to Jacob who got his name changed to Israel. And if you don't know what that means, you haven't watched conference very often. I think how many times did we hear, right? God will prevail from the name of Israel. I love the part that in some of the statements of the Abrahamic covenant is all the kindreds

of the world, another place, all the families of the world will be blessed. And that ties into this too. This is how families are going to be blessed and bound together. And what's the greatest blessing we can offer families is, you know, the new and everlasting covenant, right? So that all fits too. Yeah. I wonder if, Hank, I'm not sure exactly what you talk about when you say priesthood is one of the three Ps, but is that part of it?

The tying of families together and the blessings of each other? I'm not that great of a teacher, Kate, but yes. So we talk about priesthood, priesthood keys, right? And priesthood, priesthood blessings, priesthood ordinances, that whole idea. Well, it's, it's called to, to bear the ministry. Is it in the Pearl of Great Price where it uses that phrase? It's, it's like Elder Bednar taught that going on a mission isn't something, isn't only something you do, it's something you are because you are Abraham's children. You're going to bear the ministry, which is a cool way to think of it.

Yeah, beautiful way to think of it. We were talking about the new and everlasting covenant. I think that's an expression we want to make sure we're all on the same page with also. One thing I like to do when I study scripture is I like to read it carefully and try to figure out what it says on my own, and then I go to what other people have written and check it. Because I want to have the experience on my own using my own mind, but I also don't want to rely only on my own interpretation and my own background. And so, when I read this, I thought, well, it sounds like the

New and Everlasting Covenant is the gospel of Jesus Christ, or because it's new, it's the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. So, then I looked in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, which was named before President Nelson encouraged us to use a different name, as were a couple of my books. It said the new and everlasting covenant is the gospel of Jesus Christ. But I think we want to remember that new means it's the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. So when we talk about marriage, it's a part. It's the new and everlasting covenant of marriage,

but the new and everlasting covenant itself is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, but the new and everlasting covenant itself is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the whole thing. And so, we go right into that verse six, all of a sudden Jesus Christ is talking about it, as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory. And he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God. And then, and again, this is kind of hard stuff, which makes it worth talking about. Then he starts talking about the conditions of following laws. And he said, covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows,

performances, connections, associations, expectations that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise of him who was anointed by revelation and commandment. There are a lot of clauses in this sentence, but I'll skip ahead. All of those things, if they're not done by one who has authority and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, they are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead.

And then he repeats this in another way a little bit later. So really any contract or bond or understanding, if it's not performed by one who has authority and sealed by the Holy Ghost, then once we're in the resurrection or after this life, they don't exist. Wow. That is theology. That is theology. When you said we're going to do some theology, that is some strong theology. And I love this idea, right? That the Lord's like, there is a line. It does matter. And I'm going to tell you why. Yes. I want us to keep just a couple of times referring to the very last verse of this section,

which says, I will reveal more unto you hereafter. Therefore, let this suffice for the present. And this is one of those moments where we need that ending, because at first, Joseph Smith is the only one who has the authority to perform these sealings, to make covenants binding. And we know that doesn't last. That was right for that moment. And the idea of the person who performs the ordinance needing to have authority, that has certainly stayed with us. But now there are so many of us, we've delegated that authority.

And so now there are a number of people worthy to have that authority. Yeah. But it still comes from the presence of the church. It's an appendage, right? From the presence of the church who can give you that authority. From keys. Right. Yeah.

Well, and just that priesthood that started with Jesus Christ and went through those early apostles and then came back to Joseph Smith. What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, he tells to Peter, James, and John. Yes, yes. And then verse 8, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. To say that after saying that there are particular ways that things need to be done in order to make them eternal seems quite important. Right.

And to not have a line would create confusion. I can see why you would say, we can't have everybody and everything matter in the next life or we're going to have a huge, we're going to have a mess. I can see that as a leader, right? That we're going to have to designate some things in order for it to, you know, to have order here. Yes.

Yep. And this comes up again, it comes up frequently in the doctrine covenants and it comes up a second time, even in this, in this revelation. Okay. So we have all this, this background now about what counts, what counts in the afterlife as part of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

And then we move into a conversation about marriage. Okay. So, yeah, I can see him setting us up here saying, everything has to be done by authority. Now we're going to narrow in on one. Yeah. Let's move now to verse 15, where we really get into the marriage conversations. So now we're the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and specifically talking about marriage. And we learn in this verse 15, if a man marry him a wife in the world. And when I read that, I thought, okay, we're not talking about plural marriage here.

We're talking about marriage. A man marry him a wife in the world. And from here on, the next several verses are describing different forms of marriage and then what those would look like in the afterlife. So we have, they get married, but it's not by the criteria we just discussed. It's not an eternal everlasting marriage. So then after they're dead, they are not bound together. And then we have the version 18. Yeah, and marry a wife and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity. If that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and it's not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, then it is not valid.

So maybe somebody intends to be married for time and all eternity. But again, if it's not done by that authority, it's sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, no go. Their marriage still won't be in effect despite their intentions. If someone were to ask me, if one of my students were to say, what does that mean, the Holy Spirit of promise? I might just put something like there, if they don't remain worthy, right? If they don't remain faithful to their covenants, then that's not going to be valid. So just because you got married in the temple by the proper authority does not mean that you're, you know, it's a, what would you call it, John? A get out of jail free card. I don't know, but it's this idea of, it doesn't matter how you live. I think this sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise is the idea of it does matter how you live. Well, I like to tell my students there's a temple wedding is a place, but a celestial marriage is what you want long term.

You can get married in the temple, but to have a celestial marriage is a lifelong endeavor. Maybe that's too simple, but what you're hoping for is to have your temple wedding sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise that can become a celestial marriage. Then we get to the people who have what you were just describing. Verse 19. The truly celestial marriage. If a man, so it's again monogamous marriage, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and it is sealed by the Holy Spirit and performed by one with authority, and they don't shed innocent blood. So I think that's really interesting. That is the deal breaker. And they don't call it murder because they want to be so clear. I think this is my

interpretation that it's not, you know, if you have to kill somebody because somebody's trying to shoot your family and you kill them in self-defense, that's not what they're talking about here. They're talking about shedding innocent blood. As long as you don't shed innocent blood, if you're married by somebody with authority, then this is what happens. They shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their head, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. And when I read those gorgeous blessings, I see echoes of the Abrahamic covenant. Because I see, you know, land, dominions, principalities, powers.

I see progeny. When we say seeds, continuation of the seeds forever and ever. I see glory, a fullness of glory. And when we think of the glory of God, we think of children returning to God and glorifying God through their good behavior. So, even that, I think, is part of what I'm reading in these descriptions. That verse is longer than some entire sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. That is a power-packed verse, isn't it? And I haven't looked closely, but it might be one sentence too. But boy, does that got some amazing words and promises in it, as you said, Kate. Yeah, and it's a lot to take in. Yeah, it is. It's a lot to take in. I can hear someone, especially one of my students saying, oh, so only Latter-day Saint marriages will last for eternity. And the answer is no,

because what do you think we're trying to do with this proxy work, with this temple work? We're trying to offer this to every marriage, every single marriage that's ever existed. We want them to have that opportunity. So that's what temple work is all about, is that type of service. And man, what a blessing. I mean, you just read 19 and it's what Dr. Mike Wilcox called the pen of heaven. That is just a beautiful verse. I was reading the end.

It shall be a full force when they out of the world, then they shall pass by the angels and the gods, which are set there to their exaltation and glory and all things have been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of their seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods because they have no end. Oh, wow. And all through that verse 20, they shall be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue. Then shall they be above all because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods because they have all power and the angels are subject unto them. It's a lot. Hank, I'm so glad you brought up that perspective

because I think we cannot feel good about this section unless we remember God's love. I think God's love has to be at the foundation of our reading of every verse in this section. And when Jesus Christ keeps talking about my law, I think his law has to do with his atonement, his grace, and all of the ideals that we read about in this section, we cannot realize them without the atonement and without the grace of God as extended to us through Jesus Christ. Yeah. What a great flash of insight that you have to read this with. It's resting.

It's sitting upon a foundation of God's atonement and God's love for his children. I think that's part of maybe preparing your heart to receive. Great point. Yeah. Yeah. I think you's part of maybe preparing your heart to receive. Great point. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. And we'll get a little more of that in verse 23. And if you receive me in the world, then shall ye know me and shall receive our exaltation,

that where I am, you shall be also. God, Jesus has to be a part of all of this. And eternal life is knowing God. Yeah, that verse 24 is just right out of the book of John. It's like the great intercessory prayer in John 17. But I love that in John it says this is life eternal. This one says eternal lives and makes eternal life even plural in an interesting way, which is fascinating. And that God is not so transcendent that it's impossible to know him, but we can know him. That's eternal life, to know the only wise and true God.

I love that he would bring that back to that statement in John. Eternal lives sounds like continuation of seeds, doesn't it? Is that the same thing maybe? I don't know. I'm super curious about that phrase myself, but I think that's probably right. That's probably what it means is the continuation of seed. The Savior here, and maybe it's also Joseph, this is a very fearless section so far. I don't know, just the tone of it is stronger than perhaps some of the other revelations we've read. And maybe that is Joseph getting more bold, but also the Savior being more serious about this. He says, this is me, receive ye therefore my law. That is, what can we say?

No questions. Yeah, there's no questions about what we're talking about here. No ambivalence. No, yeah. Yeah. Very courageous, very fearless, I should say. Okay. Now, Hank, you mentioned earlier somebody who is sealed in the temple, you know, is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, by one who has authority and then makes mistakes. And when I read this verse carefully, it surprised me a little bit.

Let's look at 26. Maybe I'll summarize it for you. So you marry and then you make mistakes and you don't shed innocent blood because that's the deal breaker mistake, but you make other mistakes. And it says, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection and enter into their exaltation,

but they shall be destroyed in the flesh and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God. I'm interested to hear what you think. My own feelings about that mean that the ceiling stands, you know,, the ceiling stands, but in this life, there will be rough consequences to what you've done. Yeah. So, yeah, that's what I think so, too. I think he's saying this is how strong the ceiling is. It can withstand your own mistakes, your own sins, your own transgressions. It can withstand that.

But by the way, sin and transgression makes life really hard. Destroyed in the flesh. To me, that sounds like you're going to make life a mess for you through sin and transgression. I have a statement from President Joseph Fielding Smith about this verse. Because if you read it too quickly, you might think, well, gosh, then once you're sealed in the temple, you can do just about anything. You're good to go. Yeah. And this is what Joseph Fielding Smith said. He said, verse 26 in section 132 is the

most abused passage in any scripture. He said, the Lord has never promised any soul that he may be taken into exaltation without the spirit of repentance. While repentance is not stated in this passage, yet it is and must be implied. So, maybe that's what that buffetings of Satan means. There's got to be a repentance that's involved.

Because that only makes sense, too. Unto the day of redemption sounds Because that only makes sense too. Unto the day of redemption sounds to me like repentance too there, John. Yeah, that's true. This is the verse that makes me think of personal examples. I think of my poor dad who was raised in the church, but his uncles, when he was a kid, gave him sips of alcohol. And later on, after he'd been married to my mom for a couple of years, he started drinking, became an alcoholic, cheated, married. The woman was his secretary. It's just ridiculous. Then he married her to try to make it right. And then they divorced

and more drinking problems. And then he just worked and worked and worked to have his membership in the church restored and his priesthood restored and his temple covenants restored and ended up taking his own life. And I just think that's such a tragic illustration of this when, yeah, I think he's still sealed to my mom. But oh my goodness, how miserable and full of suffering his life became because Satan was able to buff it. Yeah. And it's not just him. You said it's the people who influenced him as well. Those who had given him alcohol at such a young age, Kate, wow. Wow. That, that just kind of took my breath away. That that's one of those that makes me feel like, you know, um,

the Lord is merciful to that kind of thing. When somebody misuses their agency by giving someone young alcohol, whatever, you know, there's so many different examples about that. And I'm grateful. The Lord is merciful to that. We, when we were back in section 46, talked about he will judge, he will, what was the phrase, Hank? Suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men.

And he had some conditions there, which he didn't choose. I'm grateful for that. But wow, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that changed that verse for me. That was really good, Kate. But I also think of a friend of mine who's, you know, he was a mission president, had these fantastic kids, and he cheated on his wife, and he married her, and he lost everything. And then he divorced his second wife. I think he was married a third time and divorced her. And now he's single.

And he's just, there's so much misery and it did so much damage. I mean, his kids still love him and still reach out to him, but it did so much damage to his life and relationships and all the things that root us and give us meaning and peace and comfort in the world. He's left all of those. And He still believes in the church, and He still believes in His sealing, and that it's strong. It's interesting. But He brought all this suffering not only on Himself, but upon His children and his grandchildren. And that's once again why the atonement has to be working, and we have to be turning to it throughout all of these verses, because these are ideals we're describing, and we don't live in a world where ideals happen. We live in a fallen world, and that's why we have the atonement to make up,

so that His children, who did not make the mistake He made but suffered because of His mistake, so that they can have healing and compensation. I believe that there's nothing that can happen to us. It says something like this in, I think, the current missionary manuals. There's nothing that can happen to us that can't be made right through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Wow. I really believe that's true. Kate, and I think maybe it comes up a little bit later here, but let's make sure to mention that no one is sealed to someone they don't want to be sealed to. I've actually had that concern from people before. I don't want to be sealed to. I've actually had that concern from people before. I don't want to be sealed to this person.

And that's not part of – I don't think that's what the Lord is saying here. Like even though this person hurt you, you're still sealed to them. I think he's just talking about the power of the sealing to withstand the buffetings of Satan and even what you talked about there with people destroying their own lives. The covenant can withstand that. But no one's going to be forced into these things. Absolutely not. Because agency, the atonement is one of the bedrock, one of the foundations of the way the restored gospel of Jesus Christ works.

And so is agency. Agency. From the beginning, from before we came to earth, agency was a foundational principle. And life doesn't work without agency. We don't accomplish our purpose, and agency will continue in the next life. I have no doubt that it continues in the next life. That is the one note that I had that I wanted to make sure I said, agency is an eternal principle,

and you don't have to worry about being forced into something you don't like. Agency is an eternal principle. So glad we covered it. Absolutely. Please join us for part two of this podcast.