followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 135-136 Part 4 : Dr. Richard E. Bennett

Episode Date: November 21, 2021

Doctrine & Covenants 136:President Bennett returns and teaches that the Restoration and faith had a price that the Saints paid. We consider the covenants the Saints made and the sacrifice as they leave America and seek Zion. President Bennett shares the history of the Pioneers as he serves as Site Director and Mission President of the Mormon Trail Center in Omaha, Nebraska, USA.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodes/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Sponsor/MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Assistant Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts : French TranscriptsIgor Willians : Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part four of Doctrine and Covenants 135 and 136. I was going to ask you, Dr. Bennett, where is the closest place for them to even purchase anything? Do they got to go down into Missouri? I'm glad you raised that up, Hank. They went down to Missouri to get supplies. You know, the Mormon Battalion provides them funds. And by the way, those funds went to the men who turned it over to their families. And those wives consecrated that money to the church.

Remember, it wasn't paid to the church. So let's remember those wonderful women, as well as the men, who consecrated those funds to the church willingly. It's consecration. But they go down into Missouri. Bishop Whitney went down to Missouri to buy supplies and provisions, and many saints went down to work on the farms in Missouri and got their food supplies and what have you.

The irony is that Missouri is the physical salvation of the Exodus. The good folks in Missouri, we thought we were going to be exterminated. They helped fund us in our trials. And so let's not always give Missouri a black eye. They were there when we needed them. Shall we put it that way? Yes, there was extermination order, but not many of the Missourians were on our side, and we owed great debt to many of them. That's got to be the closest place to buy anything.

That's right. Down in St. Joseph, in Banks Ferry, St. Louis, and other places along the Missouri River. Those are all Missouri towns. So I think we have to give a little bit of credit to that. I can't imagine getting that direction. Go down to Missouri and buy things. Do you know what happened the last time I was in Missouri? Well, that happened crossing Iowa too. When we crossed Iowa, we went on the southern side, on the southern portion of Iowa, not along the Des Moines River Basin. And that's further north. We deliberately went south, which is now Highway 2 across Iowa, so that we could be close to Missouri. Because Missouri came into the country,

became a state in 1821. Iowa's just a territory in 1846. There were many more farms in Missouri. We went down the Grand River and other places as we're going across Iowa, sometimes incognito, I'll admit to that, but to get provisions from Missouri farmers and what have you, and it saved our hide going across Iowa. And so again, this whole paradox of Missouri helping the saints. I read in verse 28, and I'm sure you can speak to this. He says, if thou art merry, praise the Lord with singing, with music, with dancing, with a prayer of praise

and thanksgiving. That was something that Bram uh and those around him believed in the idea of sing and sing and dance right so even on the trail west they're having these they have a band and they're they're yeah they're dancing wilfred woodruff was a little bit concerned about them singing and dancing like that and he says to brigham young he says you know we shouldn't be doing all this and brigham young says hey says, you know, we shouldn't be doing all this. And Brigham Young says, hey, they're suffering enough. Let them have a good time. Let them sing and praise. They're not going to hurt anybody.

And so they had dancing schools. They had choir schools. You can make the argument, actually, that our choral tradition, which really began with the British saints, but really flowers in winter quarters that perhaps even the Tabernacle Choir can look back to winter quarters as a place of beginnings. We had balls. We had feasts.

Don't think that winter quarters was only a terrible place. They tried to make the best out of a bad situation. There were romances. There were wonderful things happening in Winter Quarters. There were even ceilings. In my new book on Temples Rising, we now know that Winter Quarters was a place of tremendous covenant making. In Willard Richards' Octagon, which is just blocks away from where I am,

where it was, it's not standing there now, but we know where it was, Brigham Young performed several sealings of those who were dying. He's listening to his people. Brigham Young listened to the Lord with one ear and listened to his people with the other. And they're suffering, and they're dying, and he knows that, and they're begging him, can my marriage be sealed here? I wasn't that novice. I never got there.

Most of the saints never did. I know he did about 5,500 living endowments in the temple there, but a lot of the saints came to winter quarters without ever reading a novel. They came off their missions and made a straight line to winter quarters. Can't we get the same blessings? Brigham Young listened to his people. That's one of the marvels of his leadership. That's one of the reasons why they're listening to this revelation, because he's speaking for the Lord, and they knew it. At least most of them, not all of them. Let's not say that everybody does, but most of them.

This section to me, as I'm looking at it with you, can speak to someone today who is suffering for some reason or another. You know, we lose loved ones. People go through terrible divorces and trials, right, sicknesses. And this section can not only speak to the saints of 1846 and 47 who are suffering, but it can also speak to the saints of 2021 who are suffering, but it can also speak to the saints of 2021 who are suffering. Oh, yes, it's a message for today as much as it was for winter quarters 175 years ago. You know, this is the 175th anniversary this coming year of this revelation. It's something to be remembered.

It's a milestone for the past and a mile marker for the future because it speaks to both the past and the future and the present. Our friend Robert J. Matthews and the stories that he told of his involvement in putting together the new scriptures and of the Bible dictionary and so forth. And there's a whole documentary on BYUtv on demand called That Promised Day, which is fascinating. But just ever since then, I love noticing things like the footnotes on page 284.

For those of you who are using paper scriptures, I love what you're emphasizing about this section and the Lord speaking to Brigham Young because look at the footnotes. This is rich in counsel and doctrine and everything. And even I circled, I made a square around all the footnotes just on verse 28 about if you're Mary. Praise the Lord, singing, music, dancing, look at all of that. And so, for those of you that aren't looking on paper, I just want you to see this is rich, as Hank said, in council for anybody wherever they're at right now. I love what you said, Dr. Bennett, about this is a we thing. And the council is, we've got to stay unified. And I thought, what is more uniting than let's have some parties, let's have some dancing. And we are still a community that

need each other. So, just look at the vote. If those of you looking at paper, look at how many footnotes there are on verse 28. Yeah, there was something called the silver grays. I guess that's why I kind of like this one because my hair is is just a little bit wider than yours, guys. But they had the Silver Grays that they would go around. That was a band, like William Pitt's Brass Band, but this was called the Silver Grays, and to the different homes, and they would play, and they would have dances, and they'd have little balls, and they'd have feasts.

They'd have wonderful dinners and what have you. They tried to put a happy face on a very sad situation. And that's how you confront, like you said, John, some of the illnesses and challenges of life by doing these things. Don't give in. That's an interesting point. They didn't give in to the sufferings. There weren't suicides.

When people going out and taking their lives, they're going to confront it and they're going to move forward. They're not giving up. One thing I'd like to ask you about, Dr. Bennett, is verses 34, 35, 36 talks about the United States of America rejecting the church and killing the prophets. Right there, Hiram and Joseph. Yeah. Verse 34. Those of us who are Latter-day Saints in the U.S., we are a very patriotic people.

Yet, what is happening here? What's the dynamics here of we've been rejected by the United States? And when do we, even with the Mormon battalion, why do we even seek to become a state when we get out to Utah? We're seeking again to become a state. What's the dynamic there? I mean, how do we do? We don't hate the United States, but yet we are leaving the country. I don't think maybe all of our listeners, I don't think I understand it entirely that we are fleeing the U.S. Maybe it doesn't look like it today because we see the map of the U.S. today.

But a map of the U.S. then, we're leaving the country. And how does Brigham and the leadership feel about the United States? We did not go west under the United States flag. There's no question about that. We went under the ensign of the nations and the ensign of liberty. It was really a white flag. Most of us, with some very important exceptions from England and from Canada, the saints were loyal American citizens. And this whole idea of having to leave the United States was a tug of war with them. I mean, we love America. We believe that it's constitutionally inspired and what have you.

But here we go, because as you know, we had received revelations earlier about the Constitution, being divinely inspired. But you've got to plumb the depths of their hurt, Hank, I think, to understand what they're saying here. We're dying because we've been driven out of the United States. We're dying because they never lifted a finger in our defense. And there's this great angst. And it's being expressed in a way here that perhaps we should give them a little bit of slack to understand how much suffering they're going through here, then maybe this might be, I wouldn't say an exaggeration, but they're really leaving it behind and will leave it to the Lord, what the Lord's going to do with the United States.

Some people have interpreted this as meaning that the Lord is going to purge the United States of the Civil War later on, but I don't think you can argue that very convincingly. I think that they felt that because of this, the Lord will have a statement with the country someday for having allowed his prophets to be killed or what have you and be driven out. I don't think they're praying for America to be punished, but I think they're predicting that something could happen which would be hurtful because they've driven them out just like they drove the children of Israel out of Egypt. Yeah, I've heard that school of thought too, that the Lord took the saints and got them out of the way and then the Civil War came and they were completely away from all of that.

They never wished evil upon America. The saints weren't vindictive. Yeah. Well, they actually sent soldiers to fight, you know, in the form of battalion. They would never have done that had they not loved America and to support it. But their primary purpose was not to redeem America. It was to redeem Zion and to find a new stake of Zion where the gospel could flourish. We'll follow that pattern even if we have to give up 500 men to serve the United States. We will serve the United States.

It's render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, the Mormon battalion, and we'll render unto God the things which are God's, which is the redemption of Zion and the finding of a new stake that we can build upon. So if we can do both things, fine. But I think you're seeing here that there is a prediction, if not a prophecy, that America may have to pay a price someday for this. I'm so glad you brought that. I love this idea of they never formed a stake there in Winter Quarters. No, we will not form a stake. We will not put down stakes, so to speak, until we arrive.

And we don't know where we're going exactly, but that's... It's not here. But it's not here. When we are there, that's when we start the stake. That's an important point. I'll know the place when I see it. He had a vision of what he needed and what the church needed. He needed a place to put in a million people. We now know that from the Joseph Smith papers, the Council of 50 Minutes. He said,

we need a place that will accommodate a million people, which nobody else wanted. That's the place. That's the place. And did he have a vision exactly? I think you've got to cut him a little bit of slack. He knew it. He says, I'll know it when I see it. And when he did see it, he said, that's it.

Or at least we'll check out a few other places, but that's it. And he was being told, wasn't he told by a few of the explorers out there, the trappers out there, that he's not going to be able to succeed if he goes to the Valley of the Great Salt Lake? Is that the story that they'll give you $1,000 for every bushel of corn that you raise, we now know that there's more to that story. Jim Bridger actually said the Valley of the Salt Lake, if you can irrigate it, might prove very, very promising for you. He was more encouraging than he was discouraging. So was Moses Harris and others of those trappers that they met across the way. The closer they got to the Valley of the Salt Lake, the more confirmed they became in the place that they were going.

But once again, this revelation is scarce in terms of geography. But it's loaded with counsel and guidance for how to live. And that's important for us too, I think, is the idea of the Lord might say to us in our own individual lives, don't worry about your destination, worry about the way you live. And I'll guide your destination. Yeah, what I love about this, and I, sorry for this parallel, but I'm thinking of the war chapters. If there were ever a time where you could try to make an excuse of, well, let's, we got to put all this religion stuff on the back burner. There's a war

going on, you know, but Captain Moroni was always get your spiritual act together first. Then we will make swords and forts and places of resort. Living the gospel is never the back burner issue. Well, we've got other problems. We've got to move all these saints west. No, job one, get your spiritual act together. So you've got this cease to contend, cease drunkenness. If you borrow something, give it back.

Speak edifying to each other. I love that it was like this is always job one, live the gospel, in the midst of whatever problem you have. And speaking as a mission president, some of the missionaries are very, very concerned about where they're going. That becomes, oh, I can hardly wait to open up my envelope to see where I'm going and my destination, when really it's far more who you are becoming. Don't worry so much about the place. Worry about which direction you're going in your life.

And the place will take care of itself. There's some wonderful overtones that apply to us today. I have two questions for you, Dr. Bennett. One is they're going to go to what they call in verse 10, a stake of Zion. So it's not going to be the center place. Are they holding on to the idea that one day they will return to Missouri? Good question. Someday we'll go back. We're not moving the center place

of Zion. It's still a stake of Zion, meaning the center place is still where it was laid. I'd love to be... I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I'd like to go back to section 124, verse 2, when the same thing happened when they first came to Nauvoo. You remember remember that you probably know this very well

verse 2 your prayers are acceptable before me and in answer to them I say unto you that you are now called immediately to make a solemn proclamation of my gospel and of this stake which I have planted to be a cornerstone of Zion which shall be polished with this refinement, which is after the similitude of a palace. Nauvoo wasn't the center stake of Zion, not like you'd say Independence was, that center place.

But here, after all their troubles in Missouri, there's still God's chosen people. There's still Zion and a cornerstone of Zion. And so they recognize that they were still Zion after all that affliction and all the troubles and the apostasies and everything else. They're still there. They're moving towards Zion. They're still a Zion people. And I think that's what you're seeing here in 136, which is so comforting to the saints after all of this trial and after Joseph Smith had been killed and everything. Are we still Zion?

Are we still the people of God? Do we still have the mission of the Lord and all of this? And I think it's not just a place. It's the kind of people that we are. So we will locate a stake of Zion, and it'll be another cornerstone of Zion, if you will, just like we're doing today. They're all cornerstones of Zion, maybe not the center place eventually, but we're still Zion's people. We're still the people of the covenant with that promise. And I know from my research that the saints saw that as a message of great

comfort to them. You mentioned that they were questioning, why did Joseph die anyway? And the Lord does address that in verse 37 and 38. I brought him forth to do my work. The foundation he did lay, and I took him to myself. He sealed his testimony with his blood. So it kind of answers that concern of why was Joseph allowed to be taken in the first place? So another message of I'm hearing you, right? I know you're concerned. Let me speak to that for a moment. Those verses 37, 38, 39,

which foundation he did lay, see that in 38? Joseph Smith, who I did call upon for 38, which foundation he did lay and was faithful, and I took him to myself. Many have marveled because of his death. This is the redemption of the martyrdom. This section is just two days before this revelation, Joseph Smith had a dream.

I mean, Brigham Young had a dream of Joseph Smith and Lucy Mack. He had a series of dreams with the prophet Joseph Smith. One dream, he was asking about how to organize the people in terms of the law of adoption and all the things that they were trying to do at winter quarters. And Joseph Smith said, just keep the commandments. It'll all work out. Remember that? It's that wonderful dream. Not a revelation, but it was a dream vision. Well, here is the redemption of the martyrdom. Not that the Lord caused it. Not that the mob was the Lord's doing.

I mean, that's ridiculous. But he'll redeem it for good. And I think it's not just Joseph Smith's death here. It's all the sufferings the saints are feeling and all the other deaths that they're going through, the hundreds and hundreds of other deaths, the whole principle of death is being redeemed here. I'll redeem it for your good if you're faithful. Not just Joseph's, but everybody else's. We're not going to end on a tragedy. We're going to end on a triumph. And this is of amazing comfort to the saints, many of whom, some thought that Joseph Smith's son

should be the next president of the church. You know that he was given a great blessing, the prophet Joseph, if he were faithful and remained faithful to the church. There could have been every expectation that Joseph Smith's son may have been in the highest leadership of the church, just like Hiram Smith's son became the highest leadership in the church.

And this whole claim that maybe Joseph Smith's family should be, I think this is in part addressing that feeling and sentiment. Joseph was taken. He did his work. Now let's move on. The family's not going to come west. Notice this, verse 40. Have I not delivered you from your enemies? Isn't that interesting? Only in that I have left a witness of my name. What does that mean? That scripture has been going over and over in my mind. Maybe John or Hanky, help me with name. What does that mean? That scripture has been going over and over in my mind.

Maybe John or Hanky, help me with this. What does that mean? Only in that I have left a witness of my name. What is that? I think, first impression, it reminds me of Book of Mormon, Alma, the younger, those being delivered from the land of Helam and so forth. And the Lord says says you will stand for witnesses for me hereafter this is I I have delivered you in in that and in this alone maybe

I have left a witness of my name you I I see it like a I put I wrote my margin before you said this I wrote remember in my margin I've delivered you from your enemies in the past it made me think of you are all you all got away from yeah from navoo but i left carthage there that's what i think of only in that i have left a witness of my name that reminds me of carthage jail right it is it is still there and it is a witness of the testimony yeah i have left a witness back there everyone else was delivered from their enemies but only two were not joseph and hyrum and they are they're the witness for my name and there were two witnesses of that which would be what willard richards and john taylor yeah somebody commented i can't remember maybe it was on a previous podcast

about you know the law of witnesses. There's Joseph and Hiram give their witness, and there were two witnesses there in an interesting way, kind of fortunate, because now we know what happened, because John Taylor and Willard Richards were there. And Willard, what was the prophecy Joseph Smith made to Willard Richards, that bullets would fly around him? Right. And I heard Brad Wilcox say once he was clearly the largest target in the room. But he was behind the door, John. He was behind the... Yeah. But the couple of witnesses, that's another, that's a wonderful way to look at that too.

But I just think it's so easy to forget the things the Lord has done for us. And sometimes you'll have a scripture like this. Have I not delivered you from your enemies? Oh yeah, he really has been there in the past for me, hasn't he? I can't forget that. Dr. Bennett, can you walk us through what happens after this revelation because we're not going to this is we're not this is one of these lessons where we're not going to get to go to the next one and say hey what what happens you know before you know the continuous restoration right

we'll do one section 138 but that'll be 1918 it. It'll be hard to cover from section 136 to section 138. But what happens as spring comes in winter quarters? I also wanted to ask you, and we don't have to leave this in. I was just interested in the relationship with the Native Americans out there, because there are people out there, right? There are groups of Native Americans. What's the relationship and the Otto Indians who are being pushed up against by the eastern tribes that are being pushed out of the United States,

the Potawatomi and various Algonquin tribes and others who are being pushed east. And so we're right in the middle of intertribal warfare. And the two big tribes that we were most fearful of were the Pawnee which are just west of here and of course the Lakota Sioux thousands of warriors in the in the great plains of the Dakotas and they were warring with the Pawnee and the Ponca and we were right in the middle of a very, very difficult intertribal warfare situation that took all the skill in the world to be able to negotiate harmony amongst the tribes. Brigham Young formulates a policy of neutrality but friendship,

which worked out very well of helping them. We took many of the tribal leaders and what have you who were wounded in battle, and we nursed them and helped them back without taking sides one way or the other. It was a very, very delicate negotiation with the American Indian. But we looked upon them as being of the house of Israel. It's a whole interesting story that we had time to go into. When they go west, they're going to go right through the Pawnee Indian villages because they chose to go on the north side of the Platte River, not on the south side, which was the California Trail. So they go deliberately

right through the heart of Pawnee territory, knowing that that's a risk of unprecedented proportions to do that. But the Pawnee were so surprised, because we went right through the middle of their villages, that they sort of backed off. And they looked upon us as fellow refugees being driven out of the United States. We had a compatibility with some of their thinking. And so that's another story for another day about how we got along with the Native American folks.

Isn't there a famous Brigham Young statement that it's better to feed them than fight them? His idea was to befriend them, but don't take sides. So what happens in January then? The revelation comes, and when do they prepare to head further west? Speaking of that verse, only in that I have left a witness for my name. This is what Stephen Harper said in his book. I think Hank was on the right track here. Stephen Harper said, from the Lord's vantage point, allowing Joseph to die as a testator left an enduring witness of his name, his capitalized God's name, even as it delivered the saints, including Joseph, from their enemies. So, I think, Hank, you are on the right track there. I have left a witness of my name. I left Joseph Smith in Carthage. I like that. There's another way of looking at that. Could I just expound upon that? Please do.

Brigham Young himself was a witness, as were the 12 of the Restoration. Now, notice the very next verse. Now, therefore, hearken. In other words, now listen to what I'm going to say. Listen up carefully. O ye people of my church, and ye elders, listen. Notice that a second time. Listen together. And what is the message? You have received my kingdom. Well, I know how the saints interpreted that because I've studied their diaries and their letters. What that meant was the keys of the kingdom are in your wagon. They're in your cabins right there in winter quarters. They were not taken from the earth. Despite all the problems and all the sufferings and all the afflictions and some of your disobediences and everything else, the kingdom is still

upon the earth. And it's in the 12th. It's not in Sidney Rigdon. It's not in Jimmy Strang. It's not in the Smith family, bless their souls. Hope everything works out for them. It's you have received my kingdom. What a statement that is.

It goes right back to verse 3, if you want to take a look at it. Verse 3 and verse 3 and 41 go together like bookends. Remember this about let the companies be organized with captains of hundreds, fifties, tens, with the present, council, etc. Under the direction of the twelve apostles. There's not even a president of the church at this moment. Who's in charge of the church? Who has the keys?

You have the kingdom in the twelve apostles. They have the right to lead this church when the president of the church dies. When Joseph Smith was slain, the church didn't lose the keys. You are the witness. You have the keys. And you're going to go west under the direction of the 12, or you don't go at all. They're in your wagon, if I can put it that way.

And I tell you, when this was read for a sustaining vote, and this revelation was read into all the congregations of the saints here in the Missouri River Valley in January, the next two weeks, the outpouring of support for this amongst the saints was like, it was like a sunbeam coming through a dark, wintry cloud. It was that measure of hope. You mean to tell me that we're still God's people, that this is still the kingdom of God upon the earth.

Have we suffered in vain? Has it been all for naught? And this message is a tremendous hope for the church. It really brought the church into the sunshine of a new day from its darkest moment in the history of the church. And it has enormous significance to having a witness today in a living prophet. I just love that verse, listen, hearken, listen, you have received my kingdom. That is, I'm so glad you covered that.

Yeah, with so many splinters or potential for splintering off or diffusing, as you've said, this is a we thing, and you are the ones. You have the keys. The keys are with you. I'm so glad you said that. That verse is powerful. So, John, in answer to your question, what happens next? The Vanguard Company of the Twelve begin leaving here, what, the 16th of April?

Well, actually from the Elkhorn, which is their rendezvous spot about 20 miles west of here. And the Vanguard Company of the Twelve go west. You know, the 148 men, two women, three children. And they find the place. But not well-known history of the church is that under the direction of these captains of 10s and 50s and 20s, what have you, 1,400 others in what they call the big camp or the emigration camp leave here in June or May, excuse me, in two large groups, 700 in each, to follow the Vanguard Company. And get this, Vanguard Company hasn't even found the valley yet. And here comes 1,400 men, women, and children, families,

many of the Mormon Battalion people, because Brigham Young didn't want the Mormon Battalion guys to have to walk all the way back to winter quarters to find their wives and kids. And they're going out with the expectations, they're going to find the place? Can you believe that? And had not that Vanguard company found the place,

they would have starved to death? They would have starved to death out there? You talk about faith. But they did find the place, and Brigham Young comes all the way back here in August and September of 47, all the way back by horseback, and a few of the 12, and it's going to be back here at Winter Quarters, actually over in Keynesville, at the Keynesville Log Tabernacle, over there in Council Bluffs today, where Brigham Young is going to be sustained as the president of the church. Not in Salt Lake, but here, by the membership of the church, because he wants to give the evidence that we restore. The church is moving on.

We're reorganizing the first presidency. Come on, West. So this is what's going to happen. And then he's, I think he's, yes, he's made the president of the church on the 27th of December, 1847, 11 months after this revelation. And he himself is almost not going to make it. Yeah, he got so sick he almost died of Rocky Mountain spotted fever as they're coming into the valley. That would have been an interesting scenario had Brigham Young died.

Oh, boy. But his life was preserved. You know, there's a lot of, some of the scholars are saying, well, did he say this is the place? Is this the right place? Did he ever say something like that? I don't know. This is the man, though.

This is the one the Lord called. That's as critical as anything. And you have the keys. Listen. You have received my kingdom. And notice Brigham Young is not saying, well, it's me. I'm the guy. I should be the next leader. I'm the one. No, you have received my kingdom. So those are important things to remember. Dr. Bennett, you are just an absolutely incredible

mind and person. And I know your wife is the same, an incredible mind and incredible person. I think our listeners would love to hear a little bit of your journey from kind of the beginnings of how you, you know, found this love for the history of the church up until the present time where now you're serving as mission president in one of the sites. Take us through that journey, if you would.

When I was 10 years of age, my parents, who joined the church in Canada, in eastern Canada, in Ontario, in 1952. But when I was 10 years of age, we took the first of what would be several trips along the Mormon Trail. From Palmyra, even from Vermont. Through all these places. I can remember coming here to Winter Quarters. Here in Omaha. When I was 10 years old, and going into the memorials, the Pioneer Memorial Cemetery, and seeing Fairbanks' marvelous monuments, and something tugged at my heart then, even though I was rather,

I'd get a little bored when everybody was crying and everything else, and having spiritual experiences. I was just a kid. But I could sense then that there was something going on here and that this was beyond my little scope of understanding and a great warmth enveloped and gained an affinity for the great message of the gospel and the pioneers. Now, I don't have any Latter-day Saint pioneer background.

The folks that come here, many of them are coming here because they're related to wonderful pioneers. And that's marvelous. I envy many of them for that. My pioneers came over from England to Canada. It's a whole different story, but I gained a great love for the faith of the pioneers. You don't have to be a descendant of pioneers to know of the truth of the gospel. There's no historical pedigree that makes one Latter-day Saint more devoted or not. It's something far deeper than that.

And I learned that the pioneer exodus is for everyone in this church, whether they're in Japan or in South America, wherever it is. This is a story of the ages. This is a story for all people. And it brings us all together in the same tabernacle of faith. And I use that word tabernacle deliberately because they built their first tabernacle here in Gainesville in 1847. We can all go

into that. And it's been one, I've had the great privilege of working under some of the greatest historians of the church. Leonard Arrington, who was church historian for many, for quite some time, great Basin Kingdom, who is, in my opinion, one of the greatest men I ever knew. It's not my opinion. It's one of the greatest men I ever knew. It's not my opinion. It's one of the greatest men I ever knew and one of the greatest writers in church history. Marvin Hill, another great scholar in the history of the church and so many others I've

been blessed with. My patriarchal blessing gave me indications that records will be made available to you that haven't been made available to others. I remember that when I was 14 years old, from Elder G. Smith, who was a patriarch. And so it's one little thing after another, and I've had the chance to study my entire life in the history of the church and all its ups and downs.

And let's face it, some people, how could that have happened in the history of the church? How did our country ever leave the church? Or what's all this about this or that? Some people have made shipwreck of their lives in the history of the church, and that's not easy to read. We just talked about George Miller breaking with Brigham Young, the associate presiding bishop breaking with the president of the Corps on the 12th. How could that be? Well, people have their agency.

They can choose. You've got to allow for agency in the history of the church to understand why people do what they do and why they didn't do what they should have done. But in all of this, in all my studies, I keep going back to what Helen Marr Kimball Whitney said. She was the daughter of Heber C. Kimball. That in all their ups and downs, this has been a marvel. The history of the church is a marvel to those who openly study it. And you've got to study it enough to know not just the superficialities of the history of the church, not just one inch.

It's deeper than the ocean. And the more I study it, the more beautiful it becomes. That the hand of the Lord is in all of this, just as he was here. Now, how did those pioneers ever do this? Why didn't they mutiny? Why didn't this thing go off the rails? Because of the individual testimony of the saints. And I just happen to have that simple testimony, born by the Spirit of the Lord, that this is the church and Jesus Christ is the kingdom of God upon the earth.

I don't have all the answers to church history, but you know what? I've sometimes prayed about a question in church history, and then I've gone on four or five months later thinking about something else, and then the Lord gives me the answer somehow. I'm reading something somewhere, and it's almost as if he's saying to me, well, you asked me about this. You asked me about why this happened. Have you forgotten your question? And it's been over and over again a beautiful manifestation of the Spirit of the Lord despite the weaknesses of men and women in our history,

despite the problems that we sometimes have made mistakes. Can you allow for that? Can you allow for the prophets to make mistakes? Maybe even the church has made sometimes have made mistakes. Can you allow for that? Can you allow for the prophets to make mistakes? Maybe even the church has made a mistake or two. Still a divine kingdom upon the earth. We've learned, just like we learned from crossing Iowa, we better organize ourselves better to get the rest of the way.

We made some mistakes here, guys. Let's move on. And I've been able to cut slack for some of those things, and I recognize the longer I get. Someone better cut some slack for me, I'll tell you, because I'm certainly an imperfect soul. And if you're willing to accept a church with all of its members' imperfections, including your own, church history is yourself, you know. If you can forgive others and yourself, then maybe you can understand church history. But the Lord, it's a miracle. It's a miracle that how this church has survived and continues to go forward. And I just have that sweet abiding testimony that's been confirmed through my studying of the scriptures.

I like to study church history with one hand, and the Book of Mormon and the Bible on the other hand, because they speak to one another. If you have questions about church history, the answers may be in the scriptures rather than church history. You read church history through the scriptures, just like we've been doing here. Then it becomes clear.

It's not an academic exercise in the final analysis. It's a revelation of truth. That's how I continue to do what I'm doing. I haven't been teaching a lie in my career. It hasn't been for an academic, let's make some money here. It's been a commission. So does that make sense? Absolutely wonderful.

Absolutely wonderful. John, what a day. What a great day. Section 136 stands out for me, just like these other sections that we've been through, as just a new, it stands out to me as the sunshine of a new day. Oh, I love it. I love the things you've emphasized. You have improved my Doctrine and Covenants study because I wrote all these things in the margins. When you said Helen Marr, Kimball Whitney, I want to share it with our listeners, what she said verbatim.

Our history is a wonder and a marvel to those who have taken the trouble to review it in all its ups and downs. God has brought us deliverance every time, and it is our wish and purpose to trust him still. We want to thank you, Dr. Richard Bennett, president of the, what's the official title? Mormon Trail Center here at Winter Quarters. Thank you so much for being with us today. Yeah, we hope that,

we don't want everyone to go tomorrow because they might overwhelm. Well, come to Winter Court. We want everybody to come. Virtually or in person. Go see it. Go take your family. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you all for listening. Thank you for taking your time to be with us. We're grateful for your support. We can't do this without our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson, or we couldn't do it without our production crew. We have Will Stoughton, Kyle Nelson, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, David Perry. We love you. And we hope all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him.